Indian couple cannot abort late-term sick baby after all

I'm not sure what happened, but it's all good. I reported last week, based on several Indian news stories like this, that the Bombay High Court had agreed to let a couple abort their 26-week old baby with a heart blockage, repairable with a pacemaker (or "peacemaker," according to the Indian story).

The bottom line must have gotten lost in translation, because the front page story yesterday in The Hindu, India's national newspaper:

bombay.jpg

The Bombay High Court on Monday rejected the petition filed by Niketa and her husband Haresh Mehta... seeking permission to terminate her pregnancy, now in the 26th week.

The foetus was diagnosed with a complete heart blockage when she was in the 24th week of pregnancy. The couple wanted to abort the child for fear it would suffer for life....

A Bench... said there was "no categorical opinion" from medical experts that "if the child were born ..., it would be seriously handicapped." Moreover, there was no provision in the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act, 1971, to end pregnancy after the 20th week. Only in exceptional cases of danger to the health of the pregnant woman could abortion be allowed, said Justice Khandeparkar. In this case, "no exceptional case has been made out."

Furthermore, an Indian hospital has offered to incur all expenses for the baby's care.

In the aftermath mom made some strange comments:

"I am not strong enough to handle this. I have lost my courage. I don't kow who to blame: God, society or the system? But I believe in God. It was God who gave me Haresh, such a good husband, and again it was God who gave me the baby. I don't know what went wrong."

and...

"It's not that I would deliver the baby now only to give it away," was Niketa's response to the news that NGOs [nongovernment organizations] were willing to take care of the baby. "I am not heartless. My child's not a burden. But it is less painful to end it now rather than see your child in front of you."

[HT: LifeNews.com; photo courtesy of Hindu Times]


Comments:

"But it is less painful to end it now rather than see your child in front of you."

Painful for whom?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 5, 2008 11:38 AM


Exactly. At least the courts ruled the right way in this one. I can't believe that any mother could choose abortion for a sick child when others have stepped forward to care for him/her. That is cruelty beyond words. I kind of feel like she's saying, "I only want you if you're perfect. If you're not than I don't want you and I don't want anyone else having you either. Your life is only worth something as it reflects on me and my life."

Posted by: sam at August 5, 2008 11:42 AM


There's something very, very wrong with the way that "mother" thinks...

Posted by: RSD at August 5, 2008 12:18 PM


My daughter wanted a boy. She'll be so depressed because it's a girl. -- there's your "mental health exception."

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at August 5, 2008 12:25 PM


Click on the "strange comments" link above to read more. Unbelievably sad!!! This couple needs our prayers that God will change their hearts.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 12:51 PM


I hope that they keep an eye on that mother. It seems like she really doesn't want the child and she's afraid to put it up for adoption. I would be afraid for the child and what she could do to it.

Posted by: becky at August 5, 2008 12:52 PM


“We have initiated awareness about the abortion law and that it needs to change with time and changing societal standards and medical advances,’’

Well they got that right anyway...the law certainly does need to change with the times...and medical advances??? She must mean things like pacemakers....you know, that medical advance that will allow her imperfect child to live a normal life?

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 1:02 PM


The mother said, "We are being punished for being law-abiding citizens." Sounds familiar.

I want that baby. I also agree with Becky that this mother could do something to harm her child.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 1:06 PM


When reading more of her comments, she says

"It is as if we are a democracy but we don’t have a right to decide about our own life."

"My parents and in-laws support us. But I will have to now stop working. We are not that rich to afford full-time nannies. Finances will certainly be one concern. But what is disappointing is that we have been proved to be fools. We are educated fools. People in remote areas go to quacks for an abortion. The lesson here being sent out is: don’t follow the law. We are being punished for being law-abiding citizens."

It sounds more like their main concern is with financial and social changes, being upset that they can't just abort a baby when they want to. If she's really so concerned that her baby might be in pain and die right after childbirth then why is she more worried about affording the childcare and having to quit her job?

I didn't realise having a baby was punishment..

Posted by: Jamers at August 5, 2008 1:12 PM


Bobby:11:38:"But it is less painful to end it now rather than see your child in front of you."

Painful for whom?

Isn't that the most unbelievable statement ever? Of course I can empathize with this woman and her situation, but who told this woman that life is supposed to be a "bed of roses"????

Doctors need to start using their discretion in revealing all the possible things that can go wrong with a pregnancy. Often times they are wrong! Thank God the Indian court ruled correctly on this one. This baby deserves a chance at life.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 1:21 PM


The rationale seems to be if you don't see the baby, bond with the baby or grow to love the baby, it is easier to kill the baby.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 1:27 PM


"My parents and in-laws support us. But I will have to now stop working. We are not that rich to afford full-time nannies.

If the future grandparents will be the care-takers of the child, perhaps they are pressuring her to abort. It's very sad when two incomes become more important than a baby.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 1:44 PM


Indian society holds little value for the life of females. Why would the disabled be regarded as desirable?
It's easy to sit smugly in a country that mandates handicap access and employment while muttering shoulds and should nots about a society that still celebrates a caste system.
We are talking about a society that finds it acceptable to starve and murder girl children. A society that finds it acceptable for a groom's family to murder a wife for not providing enough dowry.
A society that offers couples that have only produced a girl child, money and free sterilization.
Clearly woman have value for little more than the ability to produce healthy sons. It's hard to imagine the grief and fear of a woman producing anything else in such a society.
I think this case offers Indians some interesting food for thought.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 1:53 PM


Not all people of India believe that the caste system is right, or that the killing of baby girls is right.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 2:05 PM


Sally: 1:53: I think this case offers Indians some interesting food for thought.

I think you bring up some good points about how Indian society differs from ours. Does the caste system have something to do with the abortion mentality? The idea had crossed my mind.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.. are you saying we should not voice our opinions about this story because of the differences in our societies? I think it's important that we do.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 2:22 PM


I lived this scenario:

At 4 months pregnant with our now 12 year old, it was determined that my wife had an ovarian tumor which appeared to be cancerous. The baby also appeared to have a serious kidney problem.

The doctors recommended that she abort.

Instead, defending the baby's life, my wife heroically had surgery while pregnant to remove the tunor. She's fine, the baby turned out fine.

Sometimes we are tested and severely. Many in today's world take the easy way out of murdering their children because the government has lost its way.

It is refreshing to see a government for once making the right decision. Let governments be made aware everywhere that they are resposible for protecting unborn children even if their mothers won't.

Posted by: HisMan at August 5, 2008 3:33 PM


Sally: 1:53: I think this case offers Indians some interesting food for thought.

I think you bring up some good points about how Indian society differs from ours. Does the caste system have something to do with the abortion mentality? The idea had crossed my mind.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.. are you saying we should not voice our opinions about this story because of the differences in our societies? I think it's important that we do.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 2:22 PM
...................................................................

You know what they say about opinions Janet. Personally, I find opinions based on some knowledge of the subject matter to hold more weight for consideration. Don't you?

I assume that what you refer to as 'abortion mentality' would be that a woman's life takes precedence to the life of a conceptus.
I'm not sure how this could be applied to the caste system simplistically.
The caste system holds that social worth is dependent upon which class one is born into. Regardless of class, a woman's life is expendable. Children are a either an asset or a detriment depending on ability to contribute to the survival of the family.
In India, abortion cut off dates were set in attempt to preserve the woman's best chances of gestating a healthy male child in a world of substandard health care. The current cut off point facilitates abortion for gender selection but not fetal anomaly and has opened the door for Indians to consider their society's valuation of life in general society. I think it is all rather interesting.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 3:41 PM


Not all people of India believe that the caste system is right, or that the killing of baby girls is right.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 2:05 PM
..........................................................

I'm well aware of this Carla. India having been part of the British Empire, I learned a bit about the culture when I lived in England. Many Indians left India to escape the system as well as the poverty.
Carla, it is very difficult to change god beliefs that go back centuries. How easily can you be persuaded to abandon your faith?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 3:53 PM


I assume that what you refer to as 'abortion mentality' would be that a woman's life takes precedence to the life of a conceptus.
I'm not sure how this could be applied to the caste system simplistically.

No, that's not really what I mean by "abortion mentality". Abortion mentality says that some lives are worth more than others. But they are not. This is what the caste system is about as well. Many members of Indian Society who are sick or handicapped are left to die in the streets. I believe living by a caste system is wrong and devaluing women is wrong. We can agree on those. You are sounding a lot like a pro-lifer to me.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 4:07 PM


HisMan:3:33: It is refreshing to see a government for once making the right decision. Let governments be made aware everywhere that they are resposible for protecting unborn children even if their mothers won't.

I agree wholeheartedly. Let us pray that our electorate remembers this in the Fall.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 4:16 PM


No, that's not really what I mean by "abortion mentality". Abortion mentality says that some lives are worth more than others. But they are not. This is what the caste system is about as well. Many members of Indian Society who are sick or handicapped are left to die in the streets. I believe living by a caste system is wrong and devaluing women is wrong. We can agree on those. You are sounding a lot like a pro-lifer to me.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 4:07 PM
..........................................................................

When you coin a term, it is your right to make up the definition as well. Pretending that a snappy little catch phrase is representative of how a person arrives at the PC opinion is rather shallow in my opinion.
Neither your opinion nor mine over the caste system matters in the least. It's up to the Indian peoples to decide upon change and up to them to bring about such change if it is desired.
There is nothing you can say to convince me that a conceptus is as equally valuable as the woman pregnant Janet. Nothing. I find the concept to be unrealistic idealism.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 4:32 PM


Sally:4:32: When you coin a term, it is your right to make up the definition as well. Pretending that a snappy little catch phrase is representative of how a person arrives at the PC opinion is rather shallow in my opinion.

Sorry if you thought my choice of words was a direct reflection on you. It wasn't meant to be.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 5:02 PM


Amen, Janet!

Posted by: becky at August 5, 2008 5:12 PM


Sally:4:32: When you coin a term, it is your right to make up the definition as well. Pretending that a snappy little catch phrase is representative of how a person arrives at the PC opinion is rather shallow in my opinion.

Sorry if you thought my choice of words was a direct reflection on you. It wasn't meant to be.

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 5:02 PM
.............................................................

Thank you for the clarification.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 5:13 PM


Hi Sally,
We send a missionary family to India every year to work with pastors there. He is originally from India and runs a home for orphans and widows as well. The people of India long for hope which they find in Christ. Their "gods" do not offer hope.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 6:04 PM


Amen, Carla!

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 6:24 PM


I think Niketa Mehta should get to decide for herself whether or not to have an abortion.

Posted by: SoMG at August 5, 2008 6:30 PM


"It's not that I would deliver the baby now only to give it away," was Niketa's response to the news that NGOs [non-government organizations] were willing to take care of the baby. "I am not heartless. My child's not a burden. But it is less painful to end it now rather than see your child in front of you."

Wow.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 6:32 PM


Carla, how do you know that people don't find hope in non-Christian gods? Certainly some don't. And certainly there are negative aspects or effects of just about every religion, which are in some ways compounded in India because the religion is so inextricably wound up in the framework of the society. But I imagine many people do find hope and solace in "their gods." Just because you believe it to be false hope doesn't mean they don't feel it.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 5, 2008 6:41 PM


Hi Sally,
We send a missionary family to India every year to work with pastors there. He is originally from India and runs a home for orphans and widows as well. The people of India long for hope which they find in Christ. Their "gods" do not offer hope.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 6:04 PM
.....................................................................

There have been missionaries in India for many a year Carla. I see millions of Hindus converting to Christianity as likely as the Pope admitting women into the priesthood. I don't see switching from one set of god beliefs to another to be the answer. I believe that Indians must want change in sufficient number to make change happen. Perhaps by altering their god beliefs to suit societal need as many societies who's members have espoused Christianity have done.
I understand your concept that if everyone would just get my god my way the world would be a wonderful place. I used to think that way.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 6:53 PM


Carla, how do you know that people don't find hope in non-Christian gods? Certainly some don't. And certainly there are negative aspects or effects of just about every religion, which are in some ways compounded in India because the religion is so inextricably wound up in the framework of the society. But I imagine many people do find hope and solace in "their gods." Just because you believe it to be false hope doesn't mean they don't feel it.

I think the difference is that Christ offers us a hope that the other gods do not offer others. He offered Himself freely on the cross for us, so that we could have the free gift of eternal life. That's quite a lot of hope that other religions just don't have.

This website offered an explanation which may help you understand where we are coming from:

http://www.southasianconnection.com/articles/218/1/Jesus-Among-Other-Gods/Page1.html

The Bible, in John 3:16, says: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” The unique and divine Son of God lived a holy life, and none could raise accusations against him. He came to seek and save the lost, and not to kill and destroy, as some would have no doubt preferred. The apostle Peter, an eye-witness to the life of Christ, reports that, “He Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.” Because mankind is by nature impure and unredeemed, God’s Son bore our pain and punishment, requiring only that we believe and commit our heart to Him to reap the reward of eternal life.

The doctrine of karma in Hinduism offers no such hope for man. The word karma, which has entered the Western vocabulary, means that we must relive our lives and endure punishment and sorrow as the price of our sins, presumably forever. Simply put, karma is the belief that what happens to a person in this life is the result of something that happened in a previous existence. It’s the Eastern version of “You reap what you sow.” Of this teaching, author James Sire writes:

“Karma is the notion that one’s present fate, one’s pleasure or pain, one’s being a king or slave or a gnat, is the result of past action, especially in a former existence. It is then tied to the notion of reincarnation which follows from the general principle that nothing that is real (that is, no soul) ever passes out of existence. It may take centuries upon centuries to find its way back to the One, but no soul will ever not be. All soul is eternal, for all soul is essentially Soul and thus forever the One. One it way back to the One, however, it goes through whatever form of illusory forms its past action requires. If you have sinned there is no God to cancel the debt and forgive. Confession is to no avail. The sin must be worked out and will be worked out.”

Karma is averse to any idea of hope. But the grand truth of Christianity is totally different. Jesus Christ was and is our hope. His resurrection, a historical event in space and time, offers the ultimate hope for mankind. For He has paid for our sin.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:02 PM


Carla, how do you know that people don't find hope in non-Christian gods? Certainly some don't. And certainly there are negative aspects or effects of just about every religion, which are in some ways compounded in India because the religion is so inextricably wound up in the framework of the society. But I imagine many people do find hope and solace in "their gods." Just because you believe it to be false hope doesn't mean they don't feel it.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 5, 2008 6:41 PM
..............................................................

I see little difference in the belief that suffering in this life will land you in a better situation in the next life(Hindu) to earning heaven points through suffering(Christian).
Christian societies have most certainly had their own caste systems. Serfs? Royalty granted superior status by god?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:05 PM


Alexandra,
From the info our Indian missionary tells us, there is no hope in "gods" that are never appeased. These "gods" do not exist. There needs to be constant repentance, offerings, good works for "gods" that are never satisfied. Where is the hope in that?

Sally,
These "gods" they believe in do not exist. Indians do accept Christ more than ever before. Do I know why you used to believe and now you don't? Would love to hear.
My thoughts are not as simplistic as you say and no you do not understand my concepts.The world needs a Savior. His name is Jesus Christ. I can share the good news with you. It is up to you to reject Him or accept Him. I am heartsick over much of what happens in this world. Hardly wonderful all the time is it??

http://www.serve-india.com/

By the by, the Indian pastor our family supports was able to purchase a bicycle this summer through our giving. He is now riding instead of walking to share the good news. Sawheet! :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:05 PM


I see little difference in the belief that suffering in this life will land you in a better situation in the next life(Hindu) to earning heaven points through suffering(Christian).
Christian societies have most certainly had their own caste systems. Serfs? Royalty granted superior status by god?

Sally, read my 7:02 post, as I have explained the difference.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:06 PM


By the by, the Indian pastor our family supports was able to purchase a bicycle this summer through our giving. He is now riding instead of walking to share the good news. Sawheet! :)

That is awesome!

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:07 PM


Amen, Bethany 7:02pm!! :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:08 PM


Karma is averse to any idea of hope. But the grand truth of Christianity is totally different. Jesus Christ was and is our hope. His resurrection, a historical event in space and time, offers the ultimate hope for mankind. For He has paid for our sin.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:02 PM
....................................................................

Actually, I would find a better life next time around a great deal more hopeful and believable than some invisible me going to some invisible place at the whim of some invisible god.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:13 PM


What do you find hope in, Sally?

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:18 PM


Bethany, I do understand where you're coming from. I can't say I understand where people who are Hindu are coming from, because I have no in-depth understanding of the religion. But I KNOW people who find hope in it, and I just think it's kind of a sweeping generalization to say that their gods offer no hope.

In addition, most of the people I know who are Hindu don't explain the concept of karma in that way. There are many different views of it, what with varying sects etc, but the broadest interpretation that I've heard seems to be a cause-and-effect, action-reaction sort of thing rather than a sin-atonement sort of thing. From that view I can see how it would seem to offer hope -- man controls his own actions and, in doing so, controls his own destiny.

To be honest, I personally find more comfort in the idea that my actions are my own, that their effects are on my conscience, and that all I can do is do my best, than in the idea that no matter how well I do or how good I try to be, I am not good enough by myself -- that without the grace of God, I'm essentially worthless. I understand almost nothing of Hinduism, but surely people don't follow it merely because it makes them miserable.

I have no problem with missionary work or with people converting to Christianity. I just think it's a stretch to say that other religions offer NO hope.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 5, 2008 7:19 PM


Carla, I hope your pastor is careful! I've seen videos of people in India riding bikes in the scariest traffic ever! I ride around New York City and even that gives me a heart attack sometimes.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 5, 2008 7:22 PM


I see little difference in the belief that suffering in this life will land you in a better situation in the next life(Hindu) to earning heaven points through suffering(Christian).
Christian societies have most certainly had their own caste systems. Serfs? Royalty granted superior status by god?

Sally, read my 7:02 post, as I have explained the difference.
Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:06 PM
.................................................

What caused the downfall of the serf system Bethany? A new interpretation of the Bible and an edict from the Vatican? Societies have had to fly in the face of the Vatican to better their societies. Of course the Vatican is quick to assert that they always thought things should be such and such way. Secretly to themselves of course.
Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:26 PM


What caused the downfall of the serf system Bethany? A new interpretation of the Bible and an edict from the Vatican? Societies have had to fly in the face of the Vatican to better their societies. Of course the Vatican is quick to assert that they always thought things should be such and such way. Secretly to themselves of course.
Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

You realize that I am not Catholic, right? Nor is Carla.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:30 PM


I KNOW people who find hope in it, and I just think it's kind of a sweeping generalization to say that their gods offer no hope.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't feel that it's really a generalization as much as just an observation based on what those gods are supposed to stand for and how they treat people.

It's not that a person couldn't find a way to hope in it (some people are more optimistic than others), it's that the religion itself offers no hope for the individual on it's own.

It's up to the individual to find a way to hope in it.

With Christ, the hope is freely given. All you have to do is accept it. No payment, no punishment, no condemnation for past sins. It's all paid for, and Heaven awaits.

I know I'm basically reiterating the previous point, but I just want you to understand that I'm not attacking people, I am saying that their religion doesn't offer them any true hope on it's own.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:36 PM


Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:26 PM

Sally is that a rhetorical question or are you serious?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 5, 2008 7:36 PM


@Bethany and Carla: Sweeping generalizations about Hinduism in a sad attempt to make Christianity seem totally "awesome" is um...not cool.

Try actually learning about Hinduism from a real Hindu rather than a random website.

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 7:42 PM


Alexandra,
The pastors bicycle to rural villages in India. Sometimes two or three villages a day. :) Please be careful riding your bike in NYC. Yikes!!

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:47 PM


Rae,
I love Jesus. He is awesome. I am uncool.

Pastor John who started Serve India is a family friend. I don't learn about Hinduism from a "random website" but from people that live it and converted from it. I am excited to hear what God is doing in India!! Can't you tell? :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:52 PM


Sally,
These "gods" they believe in do not exist. Indians do accept Christ more than ever before. Do I know why you used to believe and now you don't? Would love to hear.
My thoughts are not as simplistic as you say and no you do not understand my concepts.The world needs a Savior. His name is Jesus Christ. I can share the good news with you. It is up to you to reject Him or accept Him. I am heartsick over much of what happens in this world. Hardly wonderful all the time is it??
....................................................................................

Carla, I think that you are a true sweetheart. I really do. I understand that you have found a family accepting of who you are within a religious community. You take reward in belonging to that community. More power to you!

Good News? I used to hand out copies of the War Cry as a child. In taverns! Can you imagine? My older sister has so many books and verses memorized she would send Jehovah Witness' running from our doorstep in tears. While she was memorizing I was paying attention to content and intent. By the time I was 16, I was asking questions and pointing out discrepancies to our minister. He enjoyed it but it embarrassed mom. I quit going to church as it was her only social circle and support while dad was dying and all. Over the years I slowly realized that putting faith in myself served me in a much more positive manner than putting faith outside myself.

I don't believe the world needs a savior. Gods don't change the world. People do. And they certainly don't need to believe in a deity to do it. Many times that deity belief gets in the way.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:59 PM


Try actually learning about Hinduism from a real Hindu rather than a random website

Rae, why do you assume Carla and I haven't? I only posted the website at 7:02 to explain my point (it isn't my only source of knowledge about the religion), and the post was created by a man who was raised a hindu and obviously understood the religion.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:07 PM


You realize that I am not Catholic, right? Nor is Carla.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 7:30 PM
...................................................

What is your point? Do you find a difference in your beliefs from that of Catholics? Do you consider the history of your beliefs to be separate from the Catholics?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 8:11 PM


What is your point? Do you find a difference in your beliefs from that of Catholics? Do you consider the history of your beliefs to be separate from the Catholics?

Yes, but I would rather not go into that on this blog ever again.

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:14 PM


What do you find hope in, Sally?

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 7:18 PM
................................................

Hope is desire. I am not without desire and therefore hope. I do not look for a source outside of myself to attain that desire. I don't believe in magic. I guess you can say that my hope lies within myself.


Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 8:21 PM


Hope is desire. I am not without desire and therefore hope. I do not look for a source outside of myself to attain that desire. I don't believe in magic. I guess you can say that my hope lies within myself.

What do you hope for, Sally?

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:28 PM


Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

Christianity, in particular Catholicism originally, offers the hope of union with God and complete happiness in the next life. It views this life as a journey to the next, with all things passing away in this life. That being said, like the angels before us, we undergo a test in which we choose whether we will exist with God in Heaven or without him in Hell.

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 8:31 PM


Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 7:26 PM

Sally is that a rhetorical question or are you serious?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 5, 2008 7:36 PM
................................................

Save yourself the trouble Chris. You are going to attempt to explain that you believe in an invisible deity that created invisible parts of human beings that can be sent to an invisible place of invisible torment if I don't do what you say. And I should believe it too.
It's called extortion. Create a threat. Then provide the only protection from that threat by means of that person meeting certain conditions for your profit. I know the pitch Chris.
Venerate my god or you're going to my god's naughty place isn't going to work on me.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 8:41 PM


Sally, I think your idea of what you believe Christian's believe about Heaven is really mistaken.

I'm going to try to find the series my associate pastor did on Heaven, because I think you would find it interesting at the very least.

Posted by: lauren at August 5, 2008 8:52 PM


Venerate my god or you're going to my god's naughty place isn't going to work on me.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 8:41 PM

Well that's one way to put it! Although somewhat childishly.

I doubt you have considered matters of faith in a reasonable manner Sally. If so, why do exhibit such hostility towards anyone with any religious beliefs? You have an axe to grind and in that state of mind, discussion is impossible. Have a blessed evening!

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 8:54 PM


Well, darn, it's not online.

Posted by: lauren at August 5, 2008 8:56 PM


Then provide the only protection from that threat by means of that person meeting certain conditions for your profit.

How would it profit Chris for you to accept Christ?

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:57 PM


When you coin a term, it is your right to make up the definition as well. Pretending that a snappy little catch phrase is representative of how a person arrives at the PC opinion is rather shallow in my opinion.

You must mean like "conceptus"...

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:04 PM


Sally,

There is nothing you can say to convince me that a conceptus is as equally valuable as the woman pregnant Janet. Nothing. I find the concept to be unrealistic idealism.

With all do respect Sally, I'm sure you know that there is nothing, NOTHING, that you can say that will convince any of us here that a womans right to become unpregnant will ever be as valuable as a persons right to live. Nothing.

Knowing that, and hearing you say that NOTHING will change your mind either, I find myself curious as to why you post here...You're unfriendly, condescending and never offer any kind of facts or new ideas...I just wonder what you get out of coming here.

Not that I mind, but it seems odd to me that you would spend so much time with people who are repulsed by your beliefs, and you with ours. I just don't get it.

I find this concept to be unrealistic fatalism.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:10 PM


MK, "conceptus" is the medical term. What they say in med school, you know?

Posted by: SoMG at August 5, 2008 9:12 PM


Knowing that, and hearing you say that NOTHING will change your mind either, I find myself curious as to why you post here...You're unfriendly, condescending and never offer any kind of facts or new ideas...I just wonder what you get out of coming here.

Not that I mind, but it seems odd to me that you would spend so much time with people who are repulsed by your beliefs, and you with ours. I just don't get it.

I find this concept to be unrealistic fatalism.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:10 PM

I totally agree MK. Sally is an enigma. I don't think I've EVER seen her post ANYTHING nice to anyone. Maybe she's post-abortion.

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 9:13 PM


My dearest Sally,
You are a sweetheart to me. You know that. I love learning more about you and I love that your sister spoke to Jehovah's Witnesses enough to make them cry! That cracks me up. I have had my fair share of talks with them on my porch as well and then I send them on their merry way. Sally as a child in a tavern? :)

We have had similar experiences in this life, Sally and that only endears you to me all the more.

I believe that God changes people and He can change this world through His people. He does what pleases Him.

I am not a pastor, a theologian nor a historian. (most of the time I have no idea what you are typing about when it comes to history or geneology!! More power to you!!)I do know that I have been saved by grace through faith. Jesus is life to me. My motivation for much of what I type is pretty simple. Love.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 9:16 PM


I think a large difference between Hinduism and Christianity lies in the goal. The goal of Hinduism is to empty oneself. The goal of Christianity is to fill oneself.

Suffering, done to earn a good Karmic fate, is focusing on oneself. Hinduism is very "me" centered. Suffering, done to help others by being offered up, is "other" centered. While the goal is definitely to get to heaven in Christianity, it is done by giving, not taking. Love, not desire.

The gods in Hinduism do not "love" you. They are just as selfish as humans. There is no relationship. It is a master/slave situation. In Christianity it is love, giving to each other. Our God loves us. He cares about us. When we hurt, He hurts. When we're happy, He's happy. Not so with the Hindu gods. It is their happiness, and theirs alone that matters. Not the people, but the gods...this is a huge difference between the two faiths.

This is not to say that this faith is without good. All faiths contain some amount of truth, and all faiths deserve respect. But this does not mean that they are equal. To say that they are all true is irrational, since they are opposed theologically to each other.

The statements "There is only One True God" and "there are many, many gods" cannot both be true.

Only discernment can find The Truth as opposed to some truth. But we can't all be right. Which means someone is wrong.

Someone said that Hindu peoples can feel good about their religion, and find hope. But if "feelings" is what defines a religion, that alone should tell you that there is something wrong with the faith. Sometimes I feel all warm and fuzzy about my faith, and sometimes I feel nothing. But this doesn't change whether my faith is true, nor does it change my actual beliefs. I recognize that feelings are only feelings. Nothing more. My faith however, is more. Much more, than just feelings.

I would be lying to people to say "If it makes you feel good, then it must be okay"...That wouldn't be love. That would be indifference and the easy way out. If I really loved them, I'd let them know that living your life based on "feelings" is a very dangerous path.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:26 PM


A little history...

When I first came here about 10 months ago Sally really did not treat me very nicely. Remember that, Sally? Ah, Memories like the corners of my mind...

I made it my mission to find out about her, to get to know her, to kill her with kindness, to somehow read between the lines and become her friend. She has shared things with me and I appreciate that very much. Just something about her, ya know??

Kinda like SoMG right MK? :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 9:29 PM


SoMG,

MK, "conceptus" is the medical term. What they say in med school, you know?


Sally has never been to med school, and as far as I know, is not a doctor. She is using that "catch-phrase" solely to dehumanize the child.

Janet used the phrase abortion mentality, which is a perfectly acceptable phrase, as it is this "culture of death" mentality that is so pervasive in India. This idea that different people have different values. Whether through the caste system, or a preference for male children. For heavens sake, they just walk over people laying in the streets.

It is precisely this dehumanizing of human beings by using words like conceptus, fetus, product of conception or untouchables, that Janet was talking about when she used the phrase "abortion mentality"...

And I believe that Sally was just being Sally. Contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:32 PM


What is your point? Do you find a difference in your beliefs from that of Catholics? Do you consider the history of your beliefs to be separate from the Catholics?

Yes, but I would rather not go into that on this blog ever again.
Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:14 PM

.......................................................

I see.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 9:35 PM


"Rae, why do you assume Carla and I haven't? I only posted the website at 7:02 to explain my point (it isn't my only source of knowledge about the religion), and the post was created by a man who was raised a hindu and obviously understood the religion."

Because I was trying to be belligerent and making an ASS out of U and ME (though mostly me). :)

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 9:39 PM


In other news: I reeeeeally don't want to go in for my ultrasound tomorrow. Boooooooo hiss.

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 9:43 PM


Carla,

I wasn't attacking Sally. I too, know that she is loving mom, cooks and is into genealogy...three things that I also love. My point is that she makes it so hard, and she herself admits that nothing we say will change her mind. She attacks our faith, attacks us personally, and NEVER asks about our lives. We have all tried and will continue to try, to reach out to her.

She is certainly a valuable person. I like her too. She is funny, and smart. I was just asking what her goal was on this site. It stymies me.

If it's conversation or friendship, then she should converse and be friendly. If she's really interested in hearing our side then she should listen.

I certainly wasn't suggesting she leave. Good Heavens, she's a staple here. I really was just curious about what she's hoping to get here. I'd love to give it to her, but I'm flummoxed.

Peace Sally, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:44 PM


Rae,

I'll be praying for you and you better let me know IMMEDIATELY how it goes...

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:45 PM


Doug

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:46 PM


What do you hope for, Sally?

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:28 PM
.....................................................

World peace! Do I win? Where's my crown and sceptre?
Seriously Bethany, eradication of ignorance. There lies the cause of all woes to my way of thinking.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 9:49 PM


I would bet that the community of nuns that Mother Theresa started would take care of this little baby in an instant if given the chance.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at August 5, 2008 9:56 PM


Christianity offers hope? Hope of what?

Christianity, in particular Catholicism originally, offers the hope of union with God and complete happiness in the next life. It views this life as a journey to the next, with all things passing away in this life. That being said, like the angels before us, we undergo a test in which we choose whether we will exist with God in Heaven or without him in Hell.

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 8:31 PM
.........................................................

I understand very well what Christians are expected to believe Patricia. If you find a reward in such belief, that's just fine with me. It doesn't work for me.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 9:57 PM


MK,
No, I didn't think you were attacking Sally.

I am stymied by many of the folks that continue to post here too. I don't get it. If they think Jill knows nothing, we are stupid, we fight for a lost cause and vote for morons why stick around?? To gloat, to mock, to play In Your Face everyday?

Nobody usually answers me when I ask why they come here.

Rae,
Are you ok? I will be praying for you too. :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 10:01 PM


@MK: I will.

I'm certain nothing is wrong, that I'm just mercilessly unlucky.

But I'm leaning towards sucking it up and getting the IUS, as another friend of mine with "troubles" has one and says it works wonderfully. Given that I'm not having teh sex0rz, I should be a-okay using it. :)

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 10:02 PM


@Carla: I'm fine...mostly. I just have the Periods From Hell (TM) and I've finally had it and I'm trying to see if there is anything that can really be done barring a hysterectomy (which would never be performed on somebody my age).

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 10:03 PM


Rae,
If you would like to look into more natural stuff you know where to find me. I am sorry for the pain and suffering you have been enduring. I can't imagine. I hope your ultrasound goes well.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 10:05 PM


What's an IUS?

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 10:06 PM


@Carla: IntraUterine System, it's an IUD that secretes low-levels of progesterone (no estrogen).

It's not so much pain and suffering as passing 3-inch clots 2-3 times per day for a week. It's disgusting and probably not a good thing...as my doctor was like, "HOLY FRAK!" when I told her that.

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 10:09 PM


Sally, I think your idea of what you believe Christian's believe about Heaven is really mistaken.

I'm going to try to find the series my associate pastor did on Heaven, because I think you would find it interesting at the very least.

Posted by: lauren at August 5, 2008 8:52 PM
....................................................

I really really know that you mean well Lauren. And I will read anything you would like to share.
I sincerely doubt if your associate pastor has found anything new about the concept of heaven since my grandmother attended seminary back in the 20s. Or any of my family members since then.
But, if you feel a need to share what you find important about the concept of heaven, I'll read. K?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 10:10 PM


Sally,

What are these "Woes" that the eradication of ignorance would eliminate?

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 10:10 PM


Rae,
Thanks. :)
I will be praying for relief for you and some answers.

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 10:14 PM


Sally,

You are always attacking the Catholic Church but seem to have much more respect for the protestant churches. I'm curious (seems to be a plague with me tonite) why you say you really, really know what Lauren is talking about, and yet, were suprised that Bethany, Carla and Hisman don't believe what Catholics believe...

Which church are you more familiar with? I'm just confused. Did you grow up protestant, and have always had this hatred of Catholics...like a generational thing...or did you grow up Catholic and have bad experiences?

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 10:16 PM



Well that's one way to put it! Although somewhat childishly.

I doubt you have considered matters of faith in a reasonable manner Sally. If so, why do exhibit such hostility towards anyone with any religious beliefs? You have an axe to grind and in that state of mind, discussion is impossible. Have a blessed evening!

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 8:54 PM
.................................................................

I doubt if you are capable of being reasonable Patricia. You have the axe to grind and it's name is religion. Ask yourself what your hostility for people that don't subscribe to your religion stems from. Fear?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 10:17 PM


Then provide the only protection from that threat by means of that person meeting certain conditions for your profit.

How would it profit Chris for you to accept Christ?

Posted by: Bethany at August 5, 2008 8:57 PM

......................................................

Vindicating his beliefs? I don't know. You'd have to ask him what the reward would be.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 10:28 PM


Sally,

Are you ignoring me? It's cool if you are, I'm ready for bed anyway...Just let me know, so I don't keep looking for answers...

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 10:30 PM


Rae,
I hope all goes well tomorrow!

Posted by: Janet at August 5, 2008 10:47 PM


I totally agree MK. Sally is an enigma. I don't think I've EVER seen her post ANYTHING nice to anyone. Maybe she's post-abortion.

Posted by: Patricia at August 5, 2008 9:13 PM
..............................................

I am recovering from PTSD if it makes you happy Patricia. An extremely traumatic assault.
What would you consider nice? A sound butt kissing? You need to take yourself a little less seriously Patricia and ask yourself why my direct questions and opinions put you on the defensive.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 10:49 PM


SoMG:

Here's the flaw in your argument regarding a mother's right to choose: It is God who chose to allow the conception of that baby in her womb. The mother did not make that choice other than to have sex which is a natural drive placed theri by, guess who, God.

Therefore, it is God's choice to terminate the pregnancy, not anyone else's. In fact, the vast majority of woman, given the right thinking process, would not choose to terminate their child as this is contrary to nature. In fact, your admonition for choice is contrary to nature and morals.

Thinking through the process, it is actually abortionists like you who are the true eco-terrorists of our time as you don't posess enough data of what the effects of terminating one pregnancy will do to the earth over the course of time. Admit it SoMG, you're just a simple human being with limited knowledge who tries to act like God. It's pathetic.

Sally, I've only read through a few latter posts but the one about Patricia's axe to grind struck a chord. It is not religion, what non-believers ignorantly label as anything related to God, rather, I suggest that Patrica loves God so much because of a relationship that her desire is to please Him.

Typically, religios people act out of fear and not out of love, and there's a big difference. So stop being confused about it please.

Posted by: HisMan at August 5, 2008 10:59 PM


A little history...

When I first came here about 10 months ago Sally really did not treat me very nicely. Remember that, Sally? Ah, Memories like the corners of my mind...

I made it my mission to find out about her, to get to know her, to kill her with kindness, to somehow read between the lines and become her friend. She has shared things with me and I appreciate that very much. Just something about her, ya know??

Kinda like SoMG right MK? :)

Posted by: Carla at August 5, 2008 9:29 PM
..................................................

I understand why you think the way you do and find nothing intentionally harmful in your beliefs or opinions. You are sweet and trusting. It took me a while to understand that you are for real. I hope/desire that nothing ever ever happens to change that Carla. Sincerely desire that.
And by the way, I find you quite intuitive which is undoubtedly why you are such a great mom and easily befriended.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 11:33 PM


SoMG,

MK, "conceptus" is the medical term. What they say in med school, you know?


Sally has never been to med school, and as far as I know, is not a doctor. She is using that "catch-phrase" solely to dehumanize the child.

Janet used the phrase abortion mentality, which is a perfectly acceptable phrase, as it is this "culture of death" mentality that is so pervasive in India. This idea that different people have different values. Whether through the caste system, or a preference for male children. For heavens sake, they just walk over people laying in the streets.

It is precisely this dehumanizing of human beings by using words like conceptus, fetus, product of conception or untouchables, that Janet was talking about when she used the phrase "abortion mentality"...

And I believe that Sally was just being Sally. Contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 9:32 PM
...................................................

You are quite right that I have never been to med school which would make it impossible for me to be a doctor of medicine. You need not wonder further.
But I was reading at the college level by 5th grade. I can't spell for @@it but have a very good comprehension of the meanings of words.
When expressing a thought, I use the word most accurately descriptive of my meaning. I find the use of catch phrases such as 'abortion mentality', 'unborn child', 'culture of death' to be rather devoid of actual meaning and useless for discussion.
Understand better?

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 11:49 PM


Knowing that, and hearing you say that NOTHING will change your mind either, I find myself curious as to why you post here...You're unfriendly, condescending and never offer any kind of facts or new ideas...I just wonder what you get out of coming here.

.............................................

I don't offer any facts? Do you? You certainly don't offer any new ideas. I have given many ideas of how making pregnancy for women more desirable. You either didn't bother to read them or you didn't care.
You figure out why I am here. I stated my reasons quite a long time ago but I gather that you didn't bother to read those either.
And I just read ahead. Go to bed woman! You can post to me another time.

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 12:01 AM


Sally,

What are these "Woes" that the eradication of ignorance would eliminate?

Posted by: mk at August 5, 2008 10:10 PM
.......................

The woes created by fear. Fear. Fathered by ignorance and nurtured by many through many means.

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 12:15 AM


@Carla: IntraUterine System, it's an IUD that secretes low-levels of progesterone (no estrogen).

It's not so much pain and suffering as passing 3-inch clots 2-3 times per day for a week. It's disgusting and probably not a good thing...as my doctor was like, "HOLY FRAK!" when I told her that.

Posted by: Rae at August 5, 2008 10:09 PM
..........................

Someday they will have a syndrome named to describe what you experience. No consolation eh? My sister and her daughter have/do suffer the same symptoms. Do you have a lot of back pain as well?

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 12:23 AM


Sally doesn't hate Catholics....she hates God and spits in His lovely face.

She is and will be the eternal loser for such pride and arrogant living. And the sad thing, it's the furthest thing from God's desire to have her be separated from Himslef.

God didn't create hell for people, he created it for the devil and the angels that knew God, saw His face, behled His Majesty, and still decided to reject Him. God had no choice but to banish such creatures since love does not force relationship.

Similarly, for whatever reason, be it conditioning, brainwashing, pride, prejudice or simply ignorance, Sally chooses to ignore all of the vast evidence of God's existence in creation. For one to be able to reject God despite all of the evidence gives God the legal right to say, "despite the fact that I tried to reach you, love you, counsel you, draw you unto myself, you still CHOSE to reject me. I have no other choice than to grant you your wish my child who I love; depart from me into the outer darkness, to those places in the universe where I am not".

To reject God is ultimatley the most stupid thing a living human being can do.

Posted by: HisMan at August 6, 2008 12:56 AM


The woes created by fear. Fear. Fathered by ignorance and nurtured by many through many means.

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 12:15 AM

Regarding this comment Sally, I suggest you read the last few chapters of the Book of Job. God is no fool Sally and he will have the last say.

Posted by: HisMan at August 6, 2008 12:58 AM


Heal thyself of your bigotry and ignorance first Sally. Educate yourself about your love of deathsex and how it has made you a feverish anti-Catholic bigot. Serfs? The Pope? Always it must tie in to some Catholic and evil acts upon the world.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 6, 2008 12:39 AM
............................

HM you are a nut job. Your obsession with sex is more than obvious. Replacing sex with religion is clearly not working for you. Bugger off.

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 1:28 AM


Word for the day: deathsex. Like the end of SIEGFRIED. "leuchtende Liebe, lachender Tod!"

And HisMan, I never quite got it about Job. What did his sufferings, which were caused by God's desire to win a bet with another supernatural entity, have to do with Original Sin?

Posted by: SoMG at August 6, 2008 3:08 AM


Deep thoughts about abortion:

RTL books like LIME 5 accuse abortion docs of molesting patients. Pro-choicers in their turn point to the pedophile priests. I say, whether you're more likely to be molested by an abortion doc or a priest depends more than anything else on your gender. (Which nobody can deny!)

Posted by: SoMG at August 6, 2008 3:26 AM


Check out South Asian Connection http://www.southasianconnection.com and read the responses from Sam George's Coconut Generation

Posted by: Anuja at August 6, 2008 5:25 AM


I am recovering from PTSD if it makes you happy Patricia. An extremely traumatic assault.
What would you consider nice? A sound butt kissing? You need to take yourself a little less seriously Patricia and ask yourself why my direct questions and opinions put you on the defensive.

Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 10:49 PM

So you think this gives you the RIGHT to treat other people like crap, Sally??? Think again. Think you've got the corner on traumatic events in life?!! If you weren't so NAVEL GAZING and looked up for a moment at other people you'd see plenty of people who have their cross to bear too - many who did nothing to fashion it I might add.
As for MY hostility towards others who don't share my religion? - ha! I believe Carla and Jill are NOT of my religion, nor Bethany. Funny I seem to get along just fine with them. Virtually every person I WORK with Sally is NOT Catholic either. No problems there.

BTW, your direct questions are asked out of hostility and anger. I don't take you seriously Sally.
Once again, all I see on here from you is vulgar comments assaulting people verbally mixed with curses. Nice try Sally.

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 6:39 AM


Because I was trying to be belligerent and making an ASS out of U and ME (though mostly me). :)

Rae, you're so sweet. Don't ever change. :)

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 6:44 AM


Deep thoughts about abortion:

RTL books like LIME 5 accuse abortion docs of molesting patients. Pro-choicers in their turn point to the pedophile priests. I say, whether you're more likely to be molested by an abortion doc or a priest depends more than anything else on your gender. (Which nobody can deny!)


Posted by: SoMG at August 6, 2008 3:26 AM

Why on God's green earth do you continue to be obsessed about this Somg. You need another 2 weeks off! Sheesh. I'm beginning to wonder if YOU were molested when young and maybe that's why you're so fixated?

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 6:45 AM


@Carla: I'm fine...mostly. I just have the Periods From Hell (TM) and I've finally had it and I'm trying to see if there is anything that can really be done barring a hysterectomy (which would never be performed on somebody my age).

I'm so sorry to hear that, Rae...I hope that there is something that can be done to help you.

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 6:48 AM


And HisMan, I never quite got it about Job. What did his sufferings, which were caused by God's desire to win a bet with another supernatural entity, have to do with Original Sin?

SOMG, I don't know if this answers your question or not, but I don't believe Job was literally "perfect", because no man can be. The book of Job is written poetically, like a play- although the characters are real.

Job was a man of faith, and just as it was with Moses, Abraham, David, etc., it was his faith was counted for righteousness in the eyes of God.

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

So, if you're asking what original sin has to do with it (really, the book of Job isn't about that), Job, just like the rest of us, did have original sin.

But he was seen in God's eyes as perfect because he was justified by faith.

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 7:05 AM


Hi Rae:
I have a suggestion for you to try. I have two websites listed below (they are Catholic, but please look at them carefully) which are for NaProTechnology. This natural way of studying and treating the woman was developed by Dr. Hilgers and he works out of Omaha. Now I know that it's not practical for you to go to Omaha, but if you contact them they may be able to help you locate a health professional in your area that they could either work with or who has the savvy to figure out what is going on with your body. No woman should have to have the period from hell, but I do understand how you feel. My periods were quite nasty when I was a 20 something. Life can be quite miserable.
Here are the links:
Naprotechnology

Pope Paul VI Institute

There is a contact at the bottom of the PP VI website.
In Canada we have the Marguerite Bourgeoys Institute in Toronto and I've had friends go there and then be sent to the few doctors that will assess a woman in this manner. They were treated very successfully.

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 7:07 AM


Naprotechnology

I remember that place, Patricia...I was directed there by a friend after I had my two miscarriages.

If only it were closer by...I just can't go all the way to Nebraska.

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 7:18 AM


I am recovering from PTSD if it makes you happy Patricia. An extremely traumatic assault.

I'm sorry to hear that, Sally. I hope you have access to whatever support you may need.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 6, 2008 7:18 AM


Bethany: do you know if they refer? There must be some doctors in the US who are on their support list?

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 7:39 AM


Patricia, I don't know... I know I had really liked what they said they do, but I don't think there's anyone within 100 miles who would do the same!

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 7:43 AM


yeah I hear you! There is only one ob in our 100 mile area that does this sort of work.
My girlfriend went to him for some perimenopausal problems and she said he was wonderful. She felt he treated her with great respect and dignity.
He told her he does not prescribe the pill - ever!
Have a nice day - i'm off to work at the children's dept today yeah!!! babies and more toddlers - lotsa fun!!!

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 7:46 AM


That sounds like fun, Patricia. Have a good day!

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 7:57 AM


Sally,

I don't offer any facts? Do you? You certainly don't offer any new ideas. I have given many ideas of how making pregnancy for women more desirable. You either didn't bother to read them or you didn't care.
You figure out why I am here. I stated my reasons quite a long time ago but I gather that you didn't bother to read those either.
And I just read ahead. Go to bed woman! You can post to me another time.

I wasn't reading at a college level in 5th grade...heck, I don't think I read at a college level now!

So, I can't remember every single commented posted here by every single reader. It was probably unfair to say that you NEVER post facts or new ideas. But it's hurtful when you constantly rag on the Church, or make fun of those of us that believe, or talk down to the pro lifers here.

I'm just saying that if you want to make friends, you have to be a friend. If you want to converse, you have to listen also.

You know I don't dislike you Sally. I've told you a number of times that once I get past all that negativity, there's a very passionate women in there. I just wish sometimes that you'd make it a little easier.

I'd forgotten about the PTSD, (probably because I think of you as Sally, and not the poor pitiful women that was raped), and I'm sorry I came across as insensitive. You've been here for a year now, and I just wish we made more strides in becoming friends. Maybe that's egotistical of me...assuming you want my friendship...but it's because I desire yours.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really, except, I wish it was easier to talk to you...

Posted by: mk at August 6, 2008 8:59 AM


HM you are a nut job. Your obsession with sex is more than obvious. Replacing sex with religion is clearly not working for you. Bugger off.

Posted by: Sally at August 6, 2008 1:28 AM

What planet do you live on Sally? How does the book of Job have anything to do with sex? You need help Sally. A root of bitterness goes down deep into your soul and is strangling the life out of you. You are being held captive by satan himself. Realize that and understand that forgiveness of whatever happened to you is the only way out of your misery. And I have a feeling that I am not the only one who has been telling you that.

SoMG: Regarding your Job question......

The purpose of the Book of Job is to demonstrate God's sovereignty over the entire universe in every age and every circumstance despite evil's desire and goal to defeat Him.

Satan took Job, one of the most faithful men on earth, and wagered that Job would turn away from God in the face of terrible trial. Faith trumps fear SoMG. Just like the faith to suffer through a trouble pregnancy trumps killing an innocent baby because of the fear of consequences, always, every time, every where.

Satan won't defeat God, our terrible circumstances won't defeat God (not us who believe), and abortion won't defeat God. It's our choice to join Him or reject Him.

And whether or not you realize it, abortion is evil's insane attempt to destroy God. People that support abortion and do abortion may not realize it becasue they are so near sighted, but they are participating in one of the universe's biggest scams of all time - the attempt to kill God Himself. But since the Lord of Life is, well, the Lord of Life, even destroying an innnocent, defenseless baby in the womb, as evil as it is, will not conquer God. You see, every single baby that was destroyed will be resurrected.

And yes SoMG, since it makes you FEEL godlike in your ability to destroy life (with seemingly no consequences) and then justify it with all your inane and senseless justifications, you too will be defeated. It's foolishness at it's highest. The ultimate charge card....buy now, pay later.

Yes, my friend, Christians win, and nothing will change that.

Posted by: HisMan at August 6, 2008 11:20 AM


Check out South Asian Connection http://www.southasianconnection.com and read the responses from Sam George's Coconut Generation

Posted by: Anuja at August 6, 2008 5:25 AM

The site looks interesting. Was there a specific story you had in mind?

Posted by: Janet at August 6, 2008 12:27 PM


Anonymous,
Pick a name. Your comment was deleted.

Posted by: Carla at August 6, 2008 12:34 PM


Did a Catholic give Sally PTSD?
We can bet a Catholic has something to do with her being disordered.

Sally was a bigot before she was born. It's in her family as sure as Catholics invented serfdom and slavery.

Ain't that right Sally?


Posted by: Anonymous at August 6, 2008 9:47 AM
*******************************************

I thought yllas (this sure sounds like yllas) AND anonymous commenters were banned. Is that right?

Sally, I'm very sorry for the trauma that you've suffered. I've not been here long enough to have heard that. I wish you peace and healing.

Posted by: Kel at August 6, 2008 12:34 PM


Sorry...I quoted him/her. Thank you, Carla.

*sheepish grin*

Posted by: Kel at August 6, 2008 12:38 PM


I'm glad the anon comments were deleted. I would say Sally should probably take a break from commenting on BB's if she finds that comments are causing her to react the way she does. Obviously she is not able to cope with this kind of forum at this stage in her life. And I mean that with all kindness and NOT as a criticism. I comment on another site (it's a Catholic site) and sometimes the debates can be very intense - I know I have to take time to step back even though my stress levels are much better these days.

Posted by: Patricia at August 6, 2008 12:58 PM


I thought yllas (this sure sounds like yllas) AND anonymous commenters were banned. Is that right?

Yllas isn't banned anymore, but you are correct about the anonymous posters They need pick a name or their posts will be deleted automatically...we mods just sometimes aren't here in time to catch them, or sometimes we miss them. ;-)

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 1:00 PM


No problem, Kel. :)

Posted by: Carla at August 6, 2008 1:41 PM


That stalwart person hanging on the buoy with a Blackberry voted again.

Posted by: Doug at August 6, 2008 6:13 PM


lol

Posted by: Bethany at August 6, 2008 6:43 PM


Doug, I think he's drifting south a bit. It would be great to hear from him, no?

Posted by: Janet at August 6, 2008 10:43 PM


Janet - yeah, and now it says "APO, AE, United States" like it's a military address.

Posted by: Doug at August 6, 2008 10:56 PM


Doug, Are you serious or kidding me??

Posted by: Janet at August 6, 2008 11:21 PM


"Yllas isn't banned anymore, but you are correct about the anonymous posters They need pick a name or their posts will be deleted automatically...we mods just sometimes aren't here in time to catch them, or sometimes we miss them. ;-)"

Bethany, typically I am the LAST one to see anonymous comments (you mods are so quick, they're gone by the time I get here! LOL), so I just wasn't sure.

Thank you for the clarification. :)

Ha! A guy (or girl) on a buoy! Hmm...maybe it is someone stationed on a ship?

Posted by: Kel at August 7, 2008 1:42 PM


HisMan, you wrote: "...the faith to suffer through a trouble pregnancy trumps killing an innocent baby because of the fear of consequences, always, every time, every where."

Tubal pregnancies too?

Posted by: SoMG at August 7, 2008 2:08 PM


SoMG,

"Tubal pregnancies too?"

I believe a salpingectomy is morally acceptable in that situation.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 7, 2008 2:22 PM


Janet, not kidding - you can right-click on the little flag, I think, and then you'll see information on it.

Posted by: Doug at August 10, 2008 9:26 AM


Doug, It's not doing anything. I have a Mac, does it make a difference?

Posted by: Janet at August 10, 2008 12:55 PM


OMG, Janet, yes - Apple computers are subject to so many woes... No, it's not fair, either...

Posted by: Doug at August 10, 2008 8:41 PM