I don't see why things couldn't be worked out so that her dad could take custody of her and her mom could be freed of any emotional, physical or financial burden. But I don't know the exact specifics of the parents' relationship, and I haven't heard the mother's side of the story. Perhaps she feels that her daughter is gone and needs closure. Maybe she just doesn't want to have to deal with hospital bills that I'm sure will be astronomical.

Jill, I'm so glad you were able to find a copy of the video still out there. I searched all morning and couldn't find it.

I have saved the Mpeg to my computer and will be forwarding it on.

This is what happens when the value of human life is diminished (abortion is one cause of this). You have parents fighting over whether a child should be killed or not. There should be no question that the father should be allowed to take care of her. She's not even a baby (for the poor-choicers out there)! We need to have respect for human life from the moment the egg meets the sperm to the natural death. This is CRAZY!

I meant "pro-choicers". Freudian slip?

"Perhaps she feels that her daughter is gone and needs closure."

Maybe, but if she is gone why would she even care one way or the other? I think she thinks she is still there and that killing her would be "compassionate". It's one thing to tell someone that we wouldn't want to live in that kind of state, but it's another thing to actually be in that state, knowing that they have a child and being fully aware of what is going on. Maybe she has changed her mind as us women do frequently.

"Freudian slip?"

More like a Freudian slide...

If she knew what was going on couldn't she blink yes or no? Like, do you want to live like this blink once for no, twice for yes?

This is the woman who overdosed on heroin while pregnant? She already made her decision. No one forced her to shoot up. Why should anyone, including tax payers and overworked underpaid medical staff be spending time and money on keeping a brain dead girl who tried to kill herself WHILE pregnant alive, when there are so many other people who WANT to live who are in desperate need of those resources?

Well said Amanda. Some people I know said that maybe she overdosed as a way to induce a miscarriage because she didn't want to be pregnant any more. Makes sense. She decided she didn't want to pregnant, but didn't want the hassle or cost of an abortion so she overdosed. That's one theory.

That's what I feel is being so glossed over. If she valued her life and the life of her unborn child, why chase while pregnant? And why get involved with such a destructive drug in the first place?

If she knew what was going on couldn't she blink yes or no? Like, do you want to live like this blink once for no, twice for yes?

Jess, that wouldn't convince the mother or any of the people who want her killed. After all, Terri's family asked her, "Do you want to live, say you want to live", and Terri said, "I WAAAAAAAAA", very clearly. Yet this did not convince those who wanted her starved to death, despite the fact that she had a loving family.

Also, the father said that the girl is communicating with the nurses, and when she wants something she is loud enough for them to hear her down the hall.

She can also feel pain.

A PVS person cannot feel pain or be responsive at all.

Can I see a video of her talking? Also "I Waaaa" could have been an attempt at saying "I want death, my husband, water, everyone gone, mom" anything. Knowing what we know now after her autopsy she was in a lot of pain, brain damaged and blind. She probably had no idea what was going on.

Everyone should just make a living will out stating what you want done if you ever end up in a situation like this.

With a legally binding contract, this mess wouldnt have started in the first place. Just telling someone what you want, in legal, and is considered hearsay in court and normally not allowed...

Bethany - I'm really taken aback that you feel so much compassion towards someone who clearly had NO regard what so ever for her own life OR that of her fetus.

This wasn't an accident or an illness. No one in this day and age does heroin without knowing each time you shoot up could mean your death. Its a disgustingly selfish thing to do, and is basically like spitting in the face of anyone who cares about you.

Would you support your tax dollars going to needle exchange programs to keep heroin addicts healthy? This is essentially the same thing.

in legal

in= is not a legal contract.

I could never imagine living like that. I would much rather die then be a burden to my family. I actually have a story you might find interesting. When I was four my Grandfather had a debilitating stroke in Florida. He moved back up here with my Nana and she took care of him over a decade while more strokes kept him totally dependent on her. I don't remember much of my Grandfather other then him being in pain. Towards the end of his life my Nana had a heart attack and was unable to care for him. He knew being alive would mean she wouldn't have the same chance to recover and live the life she was capable of, none of us could. So he let go. That's what he did, he died so we could live. Now he's in heaven, and he's not in pain anymore, and I know he watches over us and takes care of his family, just like he did in life, like he always wanted too.

Midnite - AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

Seriously - anyone who didnt write out a living will or a healthcare proxy after the Terri Schaivo debacle (no matter what side they were on) is at risk for ending up in a situation like this.

I wrote out mine before I left for Africa, just in case something happened. Its in an envelope with my birth certificate and all of that important stuff - not to be opened unless it needs to be.

Then again, I'd never be doing heroin in the first place. When I was working at a hospital years ago, sometimes the nurses would have me observe unstable patients in the ICU. There was an entire week I had to sit with a 19 year old girl who OD'd on heroin. She had literally burned away parts of her brain, which I'm fairly certain is the same thing this girl did. Yes - there would be flashes of movement or vocalizations, but mostly she was comatose. And when she did vocalize, it was the most awful, painful, tortured noises. Her parents were fortunately on the same page and let her go peacefully with a priest in the room. She had been a heroin addict for 3 years - I remember them saying they believed she was more at peace now than she ever would have been in life.

This is the woman who overdosed on heroin while pregnant? She already made her decision. No one forced her to shoot up. Why should anyone, including tax payers and overworked underpaid medical staff be spending time and money on keeping a brain dead girl who tried to kill herself WHILE pregnant alive, when there are so many other people who WANT to live who are in desperate need of those resources?

Posted by: Amanda at February 6, 2008 12:58 PM

-------
Amanda,
Did you ALWAYS make the RIGHT decision? How do you KNOW she made this decision? Couldn't it have been an accident? Sometimes drug users are overcome by their addiction. It is very sad, especially while they are pregnant.

Tax payers and overworked underpaid medical staff
are paying for alot of people's stupidity. I mean, look at all of those heart conditions that people that keep eating foods high in cholesterol get? Or smokers, or drinkers, or fatty-food eaters, etc., etc., etc. Why does her drug-related or emotional problem deserve such resentment from you?

And, if it was suicide attempt, don't her emotional problems mean anything to you? Do all people with emotional problems that don't want to live anymore deserve to die? or get help?

"Would you support your tax dollars going to needle exchange programs to keep heroin addicts healthy? This is essentially the same thing."

Oh, come on! That's apples and oranges. Given your response, do you believe she should be given the death penalty for her overdose? Her baby was born perfectly healthy.

I thought we should have compassion on drug addicts.

Amanda:

My parents forced me to make out a living will when I was 16, b/c that's when I started driving. I've also got a power of attorney in case I cant make a medical decision.

I've also got a will, but I dont have that much stuff, so it's rather short, lol

What if she was trying to kill her fetus Sunshine? I mean think about it, she's off it for ten months then randomly decides to go on again while pregnant? And I haven't heard from the mother. I wonder if the mother was really pressuring her to abort.
And people who stupidly abuse their bodies should certainly not be rewarded. They should have to fix the problem themselves.

Haha - No Sunshine, I don't always make the right decision, but I've certainly never done drugs. There's a big difference between screwing up, and willingly taking a drug that you know perfectly well CAN and WILL kill you.

Yes - Addiction sucks. I know first hand - I have several alcoholics in my family, and my brother had a cocaine problem for a while. You can have compassion for them, sure, but that doesn't mean you make excuses for them. If all you do is pity them, you're just enabling them.

The only reason this girl is "alive" and the ONLY reason her baby was born healthy is because of medical intervention. Otherwise, they'd both be dead because of HER actions.

Matt,
She had no idea her baby would be born perfectly healthy. It was a rare miracle that that happened. It would be like me having an abortion for the fun of it and hoping that this will be the one in 2 million chances the abortionist fails to remove the fetus. Then when the fetus dies saying I thought it wouldn't.

Jess,
Do you eat the right foods EVERY time you eat? Probably not, so isn't it true that each time you eat an unhealthy food you are abusing your body? If your arteries ever harden, or your cholesterol ever goes up, or diabetes sets it, make sure you don't go for medical help. Fix it yourself.

I just think it sounds like this girl was emotionally troubled. We really don't know what caused it or what may have pushed her over the edge. Wouldn't it be better to give her the benefit of the doubt?

Jess - EXXXACTLY. And if she'd done that, the ardent pro lifers in here would be calling for her head!

And Sunshine - Are you seriously comparing SHOOTING HEROIN to eating unhealthy foods?

LOL. Come on now... you must know how completely ridiculous that is.

Amanda,
So you don't have any pity for the people who got AIDS from sleeping around without protection knowing very well they could get the disease and it could kill them?

Why don't people acutally watch the video before posting?

Her father said that it was her Mother that wanted her to have an abortion. He said that she did the heroin after a conversation with her mother. In order for him to make that statement in public without fear of being sued - it does make the mother look bad - he had to have already provided phone records to the court or other forms of proof.

Here we go again, is all I can think.

Liberal Eugenics.

They don't want to look at it - starve it.
They don't want to raise it - dismember it.
They don't want to live like that - kill it.

Eugenics.
Eugenics.
Eugenics.
Eugenics.

That is what this is. Selfish Eugenics. Why do people automatically assume she will be a burden to her father who WANTS to take care of her. Why should she have to die because YOU don't want to live like that. Why should she have to go through such horrible pain in dying just becuase YOU can't stand to look at her.

There are court cases going on right now where liberals are saying capital punishment is cruel and unusual punishment. They are saying the euthenasia medication is far too painful. Now these very people are turning their backs because she doesn't look like or act like everyone else. Her death will be far more painful than anything a convicted criminal on death row will go through.

How cruel some of you are being about her drug addiction. Tell me, when Robert Downey Jr. was arrested, did you say the same thing? Or did you get pissed off because he wouldn't be on Ally McBeal anymore?

What about Christopher Reeves. Maybe he should have known better than to go horse back riding. Did you also think Christopher Reeves should be starved to death? At first he couldn't communicate and when he did you could barely understand him. He had to be fed and taken care of 24/7. He couldn't do anything by himself - should he have died? I know I wouldn't want to live like that! Not being able to move, not being able to communicate like everyone else, not being able to breath without a machine. However, look at the great things he did for the handicapped! He gave a huge boost to people recognizing the handicapped as people too. How do you know that Lauren won't be able to do that someday.

Right after Terri's was legally murdered a man who was in the same situation as Terri's recovered! He began communicating and moving around. OOPS! The PVS diagnosis is only correct 1/2 of the time. The other times the people actually come out of it. ABC did a show on it last year.

Everyone needs to go here: cjcphoto.com/can/

from that site:

And what has Rick done for his father? Not much--except save his life.
This love story began in Winchester , Mass. , 43 years ago, when Rick Was strangled by the umbilical cord during birth, leaving him Brain-damaged and unable to control his limbs.

"He'll be a vegetable the rest of his life;'' Dick says doctors told him And his wife, Judy, when Rick was nine months old. ``Put him in an Institution.''

Her mother is only trying to carry out her wishes. She stated that she didn't want to be kept alive like this. She saw what happened to Terri Schiavo and said it was "gross." She wouldn't want this.

And there's nothing pro-life about a pregnant woman overdosing on heroin. She obviously had no regard for her child's life or her own.

Sunshine:

Welcome to the world of medicine! If a person is diagnosed with HIV/AIDS at an early stage now, they can live long, healthy lives.

Look at Majic Johnson (NBA player), he was diagnosed in the 90's I believe, and he lives a fairly normal like with anti-viral drugs...

"Amanda,
So you don't have any pity for the people who got AIDS from sleeping around without protection knowing very well they could get the disease and it could kill them?"

Compassion, Yes. Of Course.
Pity? Absolutely not.

Unless they had NO IDEA they could get it that way, or got it from a partner they thought was committed but was cheating on them and got HIV from someone they were cheating with, it was a risk they took and will now need to deal with the results. Pity doesn't help anyone.

Do you feel pity for women who abort because they were having premarital unprotected sex? I know Jill sure doesn't! So whats the difference?

Amanda,
Yes I was comparing them, but both as being medical problems, or problems that people have that require medical help. Both know that these things are bad for them and could kill them. I don't know why you would think that it's ridiculous when you actually think about it.

Sunshine,
Eating the occasional junk food is not abusing your body. A Twinky now and then is not the same thing as constantly eating until you're sick or overdosing on heroin.

Valerie,
If it's my body I should be able to do what I want with it. I'm not talking about driving drunk obviously that effects those around me I'm saying we have free will and we know the consequences of our actions.

Reality:

The problem with "expressing your wishes" is that it is not a legally binding contract. I can express shit all I want, but that doesnt make it legal. It is "hearsay" and not allowed in court.

If she'd have taken the time to make al iving will her parents would not be fighting and she would have her "wishes".

"Would you support your tax dollars going to needle exchange programs to keep heroin addicts healthy? This is essentially the same thing."

ummm...are tax money is already going to a program that hands out clean suringes to drug addicts in both California and New York.

Are tax money goes to pay for abortions.
Are tax money goes to pay for birth control.
Are tax money goes to pay for the war.
Are tax money goes to pay for illegal immigrants to get health care.

Why is this case any different?

Are tax money is handed out like candy to every other cause, why not this one?

Midnite - just as an aside, Magic Johnson has remained so healthy and done so well on his drug regimen that he actually tests negative on a standard HIV test because his virus numbers are so low. He will certainly out live your average heroin junkie!

Do you feel pity for women who abort because they were having premarital unprotected sex? I know Jill sure doesn't! So whats the difference?

Posted by: Amanda at February 6, 2008 1:45 PM

------

Yes, Amanda. I pity everyone who has problems.
"There by the grace of God go I."

Jess -

"If it's my body I should be able to do what I want with it. I'm not talking about driving drunk obviously that effects those around me I'm saying we have free will and we know the consequences of our actions. "

What? Was this suppose to be directed at me?

Valerie - I KNOW its not different. That was my point.

Think about it - if you're against giving heroin addicts clean needles to keep them from getting sick, why would you support using tax money to keep a heroin addict who already overdosed alive against the will of God (ie - if it wasn't for medical advances, she and her fetus would have been dead the day she CHOSE to shoot up)?

"Are tax money goes to pay for illegal immigrants to get health care."

First of all I think you meant "our".
Secondly, you don't think illegal immagrants should get health care? Ok, they are trying to help themselves and their families this Lauren was a selfish person who didn't care about anyone but her own self and now is causing many people pain and suffering. Oh I guess it's because she's a pretty white American. "Pro-life because there aren't enough white people."

Valerie it was directed at everyone.

Amanda -

I was for the syringes in California and New York. I don't believe I said I was against it. I'd rather that, then having disease spread all over the place. Plus, it give people a chance to try to get these people some help - the help they need but are afraid to ask.

Plus - I am very happy that medical advances and insurance with some tax money saved my Mother in her first suicide attemtp. Why should I be any different with anyone else.

Jess -

Yes, I did mean Our. My dyslexia with AD/HD and emotions tend to make me hit post before I proof read.

Once again - I didn't say I didn't want OUR tax money going to the examples I gave.

Just making a point.

I just want to clarify that I'd feel VERY differently about this situation if it was an accident or an illness that left her in this condition, and not a completely voluntary choice SHE made to stick a needle full of poison in her body knowing she was pregnant.

I'm still just baffled by the reaction here... all of you are so firmly against universal healthcare and medical advances like IVF technology that "interfere with Gods plan", but completely support using tax money and medical technology to keep this girl alive who is in this state by her own hand. Do you not see the contradictions?

Jess,
She obviously didn't care too much about herself, either, if she was trying to OD on heroin. She sounds mentally unstable to me, and that warrants help, IMO. In addition, her mother may have "drove" her to it, for all we know. Mothers can be condescending and make their daughters feel worthless sometimes, you know. It does happen.

Amanda,
You don't think that suicidal tendancies are illnesses?
I think psychiatrists will disagree with you on that one.

I don't think she was trying to kill herself I think she was trying to kill her fetus.

And even if it was suicide it shows she was not at all pro-life. Especially for the child she was planning on killing as well.

Sunshine - there is nothing indicating she had suicidal tendencies other than CHOOSING to be addicted to heroin.

Some drug addicts are suicidal, but plenty are not. My brother was never suicidal when he was addicted to coke, just selfish and completely self absorbed. He admits that freely now. If he OD'd, it wouldn't have been suicide, just stupidity.

Yes, addiction can be considered an illness, but seeing as its still something she CHOSE to do in the first place, its a far cry from cancer, meningitis, brain hemmorhage, stroke, embolism, or another illness that someone has no control over that could leave them in a similar state.

Jess,
Then wouldn't she just have an abortion? I think all heroin users know that they won't always die from using it, and that you can be pregnant and still use without killing your baby.

It must have been a pretty large dose to put her in that condition, which would make her suicidal, or a really bad batch, which wouldn't make her suicidal, it would make her a drug addict.

Either way, she needed help.

Amanda,
Is there anything that indicates that she was an addict, or was she a one-time or occasional user?

Jess -

My mother committed suicide. It took her three times. She was sick.

She was pro-life her entire life.

We have no idea her thought process and it is insane that we are making such assumptions. I have no idea why my Mother jabbed a butcher knife into her wrist, put a plastic bag over her head and then finally OD on prescription medication. She was over the age of 60 when she did it. (how terrible is that - I can't remember if she was 62 or 63!)

My mother was sick and she deserved help and support. Lauren was sick and she deserves help and support.

I still find it amazing how unsensitive people are being about this.

How do you feel about that woman who was put in a coma after a botched abortion? She knew the risks of abortions. She knew that she could get infected. Did she deserve to go into a coma? Did she deserve to loose her uterus? Should she have been starved to death if the doctors didn't know if she was going to wake up?

Maybe she just didn't want to go through with a regular abortion. Maybe she wanted to pass it off as a miscarriage to gain sympathy or maybe her Mom wanted her to pay for an abortion and she didn't want to. She obviously wasn't addicted, she had been clean for ten months.

Well Valerie why didn't anyone help your mother? And she wasn't pro-life if she was pro-suicide. It would be like being pro-life except for abortion. She might have claimed she was pro-life but she wasn't'.

Valerie,
I am so sorry about your mom. That had to be an awful experience for your family (and your mother) to go through.

I'm also astounded by the insensitivity to this story. It makes me so mad that people can just pick and choose who deserves help and who doesn't based solely on their opinions. But come the time that THEY or one of THEIR loved ones needs help, mountains had BETTER be moved to make it happen.

Sunshine - So lets consider that her addiction IS an illness. If you have a treatable illness (there are special rehab facilities for pregnant women), and found out you were pregnant, would you not immediately set aside everything else and GET THAT TREATMENT? If not for yourself, than for your baby? Or would you just keep on being ill and throw caution to the wind?

I don't think my family is selfish enough to purposely hurt themselves for attention.

"Secondly, you don't think illegal immagrants should get health care? Ok, they are trying to help themselves and their families this Lauren was a selfish person who didn't care about anyone but her own self and now is causing many people pain and suffering. Oh I guess it's because she's a pretty white American. "Pro-life because there aren't enough white people."

The above is the epitome of a left-wing rant.

Ok I'm going I'll be back later.

Sunshine, it does not require a large dose - it depends on the potency of the drug. This is why I don't take a lot of pity on heroin users. It is a nearly INSTANT addiction, and it is ALWAYS a game of Russian Roulette. There is absolutely no way to use heroin in smaller doses and make it less deadly. Its just not the nature of the drug.

And if it was a one time thing, that further supports the idea that she was just trying to abort, and had no illness at all.

Amanda,
I don't think emotionally unstable people can think rationally, so no. I don't beleive that they would seek out that treatment.

Why Matt? Abortion was originally outlawed because people feared a decrease in native born whites. Also ask yourself, why did Elizabeth Smart and Natelie Holoways (sp) stories get so much attention when so many other people get abducted, some even younger?

And if it was a one time thing, that further supports the idea that she was just trying to abort, and had no illness at all.

Posted by: Amanda at February 6, 2008 2:18 PM

------
Then why wouldn't she just go to, uh, let's see, Planned Parenthood?

Well where was her father when she was suicidal? Why wasn't he there for her, getting her help then?

Cause, uh, Planned Parenthood costs money, more money then her heroin.

Jess -

What makes you think we didn't try to help her! wow, the assumptions here are amazing.

Wanna know why she was able to try three times in a month? Because liberals believe that the mentally ill have the right to check themselves out of a mental hospital after 72 hours and they have had BS laws passed so people like my Mom could go home without receiving the help she needed. We could have put her in a private institution, but insurance wouldn't pay for that and we couldn't afford it. Oh - the same liberals that want the mentally ill out of hospitals also passed laws saying that tax money can't go to private institutions. Nice huh?

My mother was sick. Why is that so hard for you to understand? She was on Hormone replacement therapy when there was a big "study proving" that HRT causes cancer. OOPS study was wrong. However, no one blinked an eye at all the women who ended up dead by suicide because of what being taken off the medication did to them. No feminists around demanding answers and wanting to know why the study was so faulty.

I think we are beginning to see more thoughts of Eugenics here.

Something tells me you would rather the mentally ill be gone too. since some of them are pro-suicide and all. What about the people who are schizophrenic and use drugs to stop the voices. Do they deserve "what they get" when they overdose?

I mean it cost money for an abortion.

"Abortion was originally outlawed because people feared a decrease in native born whites."

I'd be quite interested in seeing evidence for this.

If the country was run my way we would have universal health care. If your mother was really sick you could have gotten power of attorney.

"Amanda,
"I don't think emotionally unstable people can think rationally, so no. I don't beleive that they would seek out that treatment."

Sunshine, I don't think people in vegetative states can think rationally, so no. I don't believe the would seek out that treatment.

She's not seeking treatment now either... is she...that doesn't mean someone in her family couldn't have sought it FOR her. Her father is certainly doing it now! Why not the lawyers and protective orders BEFORE she ended up like this?

Bobby,
Read the book, "Make Love Not War." It's about the sexual revolution and it's really interesting you will definitely appreciate it. I don't have the book on me but when I do get it I'll let you know the quote.

P.S. I read the Bible now you read my book, lol : )

Amanda,
We were talking about BEFORE the fact, not after.

" BEFORE she ended up like this?"
Because now she's easier to deal with?

"Abortion was originally outlawed because people feared a decrease in native born whites."

Actually abortion was pushed to be legal because people didn't want the lower class over producing and they didn't want the handicapped and mentally disabled to reproduce either. Just read up on Margaret Sanger and The Birth Control League and you will understand.

Jess -

don't like universal healthcare......but I'd vote for you if you could get those wako liberal laws off the books. Actually Dad did have power of atty, but that was only for financial things and not personal. We were working on the personal, but she died before we could get it to go through the courts......

"Why Matt? Abortion was originally outlawed because people feared a decrease in native born whites. Also ask yourself, why did Elizabeth Smart and Natelie Holoways (sp) stories get so much attention when so many other people get abducted, some even younger?"

No, the real question is why did you inject race into this in the first place? And whoever brought in illegal immigration into this discussion got off the track.

I realize that Sunshine. What im saying is, there are PLENTY of situations in which a person is not capable of seeking the treatment they need. That doesn't mean someone in their life can't get power of attorney (which her dad is trying to do now) to take custody of her and teh care she needed. If they don't have anyone in their life to care, thats different, but clearly this girl did.

If her father is this concerned about keeping her alive now, where was he when she was shooting up heroin while pregnant?

Jess & Amanda,
You are both assuming that she disclosed her suicidal thoughts with people before her attempt.

The bottom line, here, is that IMO, she was a troubled young woman who gave birth to a beautiful child. She is being offered care now and the courts and the mothers should respect that. Everyone can just walk away & go on with their lives. At least the father is the stand up guy that will be there until her natural death. Let the guy take care of her. It's not hurting anyone to allow her to live, geesh!

"If her father is this concerned about keeping her alive now, where was he when she was shooting up heroin while pregnant?"

Uh, maybe, because, as one of the stories on this case stated, and as many children of divorce are familiar with, she didn't stay at one parent's place all the time.

Alright, very good Jess, I'll add it to the list. I'm not quite sure most historians would agree with this, though. I know it's not a perfect source, but I can't seem to find anything about it on Wiki. Well, we'll see. God love you.

Matthew,
Exactly! Many people don't know about their loved-ones drug use until it is too late. How sad.

Valerie brought up the subject of illegal immigration.

LOL @ "natural death"

she's surviving because of a latex tube inserted in to her abdomen. how is that natural?

And how she doesn't want to pay for their health care no matter what the problem be it even genetic but she'll gladly cover this girls costs.

Sunshine -

"I am so sorry about your mom. That had to be an awful experience for your family (and your mother) to go through."

Thanks....it was very difficult. Especially since she had not been sick before that.

"I'm also astounded by the insensitivity to this story...."

If it was the story of the woman who died when her boyfriend attempted to give her an abortion with a coat hanger in a hotel room, heads would be rolling if we were unsenstivie to her situations. But, if it is someone that they don't like to look at - OFF with her head!

Jess -

"P.S. I read the Bible now you read my book, lol : )"

LOL! Love it!

I actually have that book, I haven't had time to read it. Here it is on amazon:

www.amazon.com/Make-Love-Not-War-Revolution/dp/B000FUO0HO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202330469&sr=8-1

I've heard it is really good.

"Valerie brought up the subject of illegal immigration. "

Oh, sure, blame me! I was *sniff* just trying to *sniff, sniff* make a point *boo face*.

oh well, when have we ever stayed on topic?

Val,
How 'bout it!

LOL @ "natural death"

she's surviving because of a latex tube inserted in to her abdomen. how is that natural?

Posted by: Amanda at February 6, 2008 2:36 PM
-----
gee, Amanda, it's just food & water she needs. I guess you'd let the Iraqi war vets that have no arms die also? I mean, they certainly can't feed themselves. What about paraplegics? Let them go, too? And then there's babies. Would you let them starve to death too simply because they can't feed themselves? I'm glad you got a laugh out of it, but there is nothing natural about murdering someone.

^ Sunshine

Valerie -

Do you REALLY HONESTLY believe I feel this way because I wouldn't want to "look at her"???

You do realize I work in a hospital with post-operative cancer patients and developmentally delayed patients- some of whom have had huge portions of their skulls removed, or their entire jaws, or other awful, disfiguring surgeries. Several of our weekly therapy patients are unable to communicate verbally or are learning to use computer systems to allow them to "speak" with software programs. There is one 14 year old girl who comes in twice a week who's had both of her eyeballs removed and cannot hold her mouth closed. You think thats PRETTY to look at?? You don't think its hard to see her? But she is concious uses signs, and eats formula on her own volition.

Please tell me, do you really think so lowly of me that you think THAT is why I feel this way? Because if you do, its clear you're oversimplifying it to a exponential degree.

LOL - sunshine.... that isnt even close to what i was getting at, and you KNOW it.

Having limbs removed or being paralyzed is not even CLOSE to being vegetative. And the NATURE of being a baby is such that you need the help of another PERSON... not a tube.

And you dont think people without arms can feed themselves? Come visit me at work some day. You may be quite surprised.

Amanda,
'that isnt even close to what i was getting at, and you KNOW it"

----I actually didn't know that.

"The video showed Lauren responding to family and a pet, proving she is not in a coma or brain dead, as the abused "persistent vegetative state" would have one believe."

Her father WANTS to take care of her, and you are assuming that you know for a fact that she is in a vegetative state.

And yes, I'm pretty sure armless folks can still eat, I was just making a point. Especially when they first come back with their injuries, and don't know how to do this. Once they learn how, of course they can.

Jess:

The point is it's not your body. I know you don't like hearing but, the Bible says, "you are not your own".

Our bodies belongs to God and are subject to His wishes and will just like a baby in the womb is not the mother's to kill.

Amanda,
Let me ask you this. Can YOU be the one in the room that removes the feeding tube? Can YOU sit there until she dies and not feel that what you did was horrible?

I'm pretty sure this is how her father feels. I know I would, and wouldn't be able to live with myself. I don't know how Terri Shaivo's (sp?) "husband" (I hate to use that word) does it.

Hi, HisMan!
**waves**

Sunshine - if I knew in my heart thats what she would have wanted, absolutely. I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm not trying to downplay the pain I'm sure her father is in at all. But as hard as it would be, I would have to get passed the hardship and accept that the person I love would never want to live that way.

Several of the patients I've seen here have opted to end therapy, knowing they will die soon. Usually its harder on their spouse/parents than it is for them... but it all comes down to stepping outside of yourself and realizing this is for THEM, not for you. I certainly would rather be dead than in the state she's in. Theres not even a question in my mind. My entire family feels the same way, so I'm grateful this sort of trouble would never be an issue.

Amanda,
I get that, and I admire your caring attitude on this. However, there was no living will, and it's just heresay from the "mother" that it was even stated that she wanted to die if she were ever in a vegetative state. Heresay, Amanda. There is no proof. So, without proof, wouldn't you want to err on the side of caution? Not to mention, that she may not even be in a vegetative state.

Amanda -

"Do you REALLY HONESTLY believe I feel this way because I wouldn't want to "look at her"???"

Yes I do. there is no other reason to want her to die. Why else would you think it is okay for her to be court ordered to die when there is someone willing and able to care for her? Why else would you be so sure that she should be condemned to death without a trial because she was weak and used drugs? Why else?

If one of the people you cared for couldn't talk like you and me and couldn't feed themselves or move properly would you be saying the same thing? Or is it just because she was weak for a moment in her life and you feel you must judge her?

What are your thoughts on Stephen Hawkins? he was told he would die in 2 to 3 years when he was 21 (he's 66 now). If it wasn't for his genius and knowing the right people, not one person would know that his brain was still working. No one would know that he could still communicate if it wasn't for the voice synthensizer - something that no one tried on Terri or Lauren by the way.

There have been so many cases where the doctors were wrong it is shocking that people still believe them as telling the gospel truth! Did you know that when I was 25 I was given 6 months to 2 years to live? I'm 37 now. Everything the doctors said was wrong. They were wrong. How do we know these doctors are right when they say persistant vegetative state when so many people have miraculously "recovered" from this?

Considering who you work with I am amazed that you can watch those people defy medical science everyday of their lives and still think that the doctors are 100% right in their diagnosis of Lauren. Haven't you ever had a patient who started to walk, talk, eat on their own or laugh after the doctors said they wouldn't? there was just an NFL player who the doctors said would never walk and in just a couple months he was walking.

Doctors are notoriously wrong when the human spirit is awakened. When the spirit is inspired even doctors sit there is awe.

There was a high school student in the early 1970's, I can't remember her name, that was hit by a car and her parents were told she was in a coma and would never come out. (I believe that is what they call PVS now). Her parents worked with her and she is now awake and walking and running in races again. There was an TV movie made about that - I think Helen Hunt played the girl.

There was a severly autistic boy that the doctors said would never be normal and would never overcome his autism. He is now talking and socializing with people. It is his story and his parents devotion that began the "son rise program" to treat autism. www.autismtreatmentcenter.org/

With everything you see every day. All the Human Miracles. I find it almost repulsive that you would give up on Lauren like this.

That is why I think it is because you don't want to look at her. What else could it be? Especially since you work with these miracles everyday.

Valerie,
I'm very sorry to hear about your mother and what your family must of gone through, I know the deep emotional pain involved with depression and have tried to take my own life twice (a caution would have been appreciated since you never who might be reading it).

Jess and Amanda,
Regarding suicide, it affects people of many backgrounds and beliefs systems and there are a number of factors leading to suicide. Do you those who attempt suicide not deserve medical care because they did it to themselves?
Actually, addiction is classified as a mental illness under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4 (DSM-IV)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV_Codes
and is a complicated issue like many other mental illnesses. Substance abuse is very difficult to break away from because of the physical and psychological dependance and even after one stops using the drugs and is clean, the cravings will always be there (which is why people relapse after months or years of being clean), however frustrating is must be for health care professionals. Also, another reason for substance abuse is an underlying mental illness (such as depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia) and the person may try to self-medicate with recreational drugs. As for seeking treatment, dependance is the largest barrier to seeking treatment, but also there is financial costs, homelesness, stigma, not knowing where to go, and a lack of a support system. We don't know why she did what she did and we shouldn't judge her nor assume. But rather substance abuse should be treated like many other mental illnesses and instead, we should be focusing on encouraging and removing barriers to treatment.

Sources:
http://www.nida.nih.gov/
http://www.samhsa.gov/

I don't think my family is selfish enough to purposely hurt themselves for attention.

Ouch! While there are some who do it for attention, this is a common myth especially about suicide. You don't know that, it may have been a cry for help or even accidental.

oops...I posted the wrong page for the information on the boy with autism...

Go here www.autismtreatmentcenter.org/contents/about_son-rise/history_of_the_son-rise_program.php

for his story. The link I provided above is the main page....

I don't think emotionally unstable people can think rationally, so no. I don't beleive that they would seek out that treatment.

Sunshine,
This is another myth about mental illness which contributes to stigma, while the effects of mental illness left untreated can be devastating, many individuals living with a mental illness hold normal jobs, shop, go to church, etc.

Rachael,
I think you misunderstood why I said that.

Amanda said, "So lets consider that her addiction IS an illness. If you have a treatable illness (there are special rehab facilities for pregnant women), and found out you were pregnant, would you not immediately set aside everything else and GET THAT TREATMENT? If not for yourself, than for your baby? Or would you just keep on being ill and throw caution to the wind?

I responded with:
"I don't think emotionally unstable people can think rationally, so no. I don't beleive that they would seek out that treatment."

Sorry for the confusion. I should have added what Amanda said that provoked my comment.

Valerie -

Wow, Thanks for reading absolutely nothing I said and making a very foolish generalization about me. You are so far off from the truth its almost funny. It makes TONS of sense that I work in rehabilitative care if I can't look at disabled people..... *eyeroll*

MOST of the patients I see CAN NOT communicate like you and I do. I stated that quite clearly. But they DO communicate. This girl has fried her brain - she CANNOT communicate in ANY way. Random utterances and movements are not communication. Completley brain dead people on full life support still sometimes make random movements and vocalizations - to assume that its a reaction to something is grasping at straws. MRI's dont lie. If the part of your brain that allows you to communicate is destroyed, you're not communicating. End of story.

Stephen Hawking also communicates - in fact he is responsible for much of the communication software my patients use.

Autism is also NOT a vegetative state. AT ALL. And PLEAASE don't even try to compare them, beacuse thats sooooo far off from reality its just going to make me angry.

Ok, Sunshine, thank you for clearifying,I understand what you were saying.

And PLEAASE don't even try to compare them, beacuse thats sooooo far off from reality its just going to make me angry.

Posted by: Amanda at February 6, 2008 4:07 PM
------

And trust me...we DO NOT want to see Amanda angry. It isn't pretty.

Hisman,
What if the Bible isn't 100% true? Or what about those of us who don't believe in the Bible? Is it ok for agnostics to abort? I know you think everyone who doesn't think how you think is going to hell but please try to understand not everyone takes the bible for fact.

Here's a theory!!! MAYBE she really wanted her baby and her mother made her feel like crap when she told her she didn't want a grandchild, and that she should "get rid of it". She had already had a problem and her mother may have made it worse with her poor attitude towards life. If I had a mother like that I'd probably want to shoot up too. Maybe this is a harsh post, but, wtf!?

Well we haven't even heard from the mother, but still if she wanted to child then it should have been her priority, taking precedent over her personal feelings and relationships.

hey guys,

there are two areas that I think need discussion here. One is about the absolute uselessness of 'living wills'. Many (if not most) hospitals are guided by the ethic called 'futile care'.

Under such a system a group of doctors + lay people can override any wishes of the patient/family even previously written ones. IMO this is 'strange' medical practice, that 'futile care' seems to pop-up whenever health insurance $$$ run out. It does not seem to matter that medical assistance is available ... such help is only there for people who can afford it.

The second area is 'fetal alcohol syndrome'. Such a strange medical condition is passed an the majority of Canada's Inuit/Eskimo population. For recreation, kids sniff gasoline fumes because they cannot afford glue. Many (and I do mean 'many')
commit suicide before they are 12 years old.

There are many very unpleasant things we humans do to one another. It is very important to not fall into the trap where all you do is judge others, but affirm life.

Not to be "that guy" but Native American alcoholism is the fault of colonization. I blame the English. I blame all our problems on the English.

Jess,
What are you talking about?
Where did THAT come from?
:)

Jess -

What makes you think we didn't try to help her! wow, the assumptions here are amazing.

Wanna know why she was able to try three times in a month? Because liberals believe that the mentally ill have the right to check themselves out of a mental hospital after 72 hours and they have had BS laws passed so people like my Mom could go home without receiving the help she needed. We could have put her in a private institution, but insurance wouldn't pay for that and we couldn't afford it. Oh - the same liberals that want the mentally ill out of hospitals also passed laws saying that tax money can't go to private institutions. Nice huh?

My mother was sick. Why is that so hard for you to understand? She was on Hormone replacement therapy when there was a big "study proving" that HRT causes cancer. OOPS study was wrong. However, no one blinked an eye at all the women who ended up dead by suicide because of what being taken off the medication did to them. No feminists around demanding answers and wanting to know why the study was so faulty.

I think we are beginning to see more thoughts of Eugenics here.

Something tells me you would rather the mentally ill be gone too. since some of them are pro-suicide and all. What about the people who are schizophrenic and use drugs to stop the voices. Do they deserve "what they get" when they overdose?

Posted by: valerie at February 6, 2008 2:22 PM
.........................

Actually you can thank that wacky liberal known as President Reagan for rescinding Jimmy Carter' Mental Health Systems Act.
You can thank him for doing away with involuntary hospitalization. Here is some reading for you:

http://www.sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas.html

Jess & Amanda,
You are both assuming that she disclosed her suicidal thoughts with people before her attempt.

The bottom line, here, is that IMO, she was a troubled young woman who gave birth to a beautiful child. She is being offered care now and the courts and the mothers should respect that. Everyone can just walk away & go on with their lives. At least the father is the stand up guy that will be there until her natural death. Let the guy take care of her. It's not hurting anyone to allow her to live, geesh!

Posted by: Sunshine at February 6, 2008 2:32 PM

.......................

So much for all those 'your babies will be born deformed if you use drugs' movies that I had to watch in school back in the day. Kinda makes prosecuting drug addicted women that give birth to less than perfect babies look really silly.

Here's a theory!!! MAYBE she really wanted her baby and her mother made her feel like crap when she told her she didn't want a grandchild, and that she should "get rid of it". She had already had a problem and her mother may have made it worse with her poor attitude towards life. If I had a mother like that I'd probably want to shoot up too. Maybe this is a harsh post, but, wtf!?

Posted by: rosie at February 6, 2008 5:01 PM
......................

Here's a theory! Maybe her father sexually molested her and she took to drugs to forget about it. Maybe he wants to keep her alive to do more of the same without worry of her ever telling!
Geeesh!

Mods, got a post from earlier in que, thanks!

He mentioned fetal alcohol syndrome in Native Americans...

Amanda -

"Random utterances and movements are not communication. Completley brain dead people on full life support still sometimes make random movements and vocalizations - to assume that its a reaction to something is grasping at straws. MRI's dont lie. If the part of your brain that allows you to communicate is destroyed, you're not communicating. End of story. "

For someone who "works in the field" you sure don't know much. Recent research of the brain has proven that the brain can and does repair itself.

www.hdlighthouse.org/research/brain/updates/0059neurogenesis.php

content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/334/21/1412

www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/New-Discovery-Shows-That-Brain-Could-repair-Itself-After-Stroke-11639-1/

www.neurosciencecanada.ca/en/National_Brain_Repair_Program

I have more information if you want it.

How about the story of James who had his left side of his brain removed and is doing fine.

Or how about Andrew Vandal who was born with only a brain stem but could laugh, giggle and smile. He could move around on his back and responded to all kinds of stimuli. Oh, and he did laugh and smile all at the right times too. When he was born the doctors adviced that he be left to die.

Or how about all the research done by the late Dr. John Lorber? Some of his findings:

www.science-mag.com/science/is-your-brain-really-necessary-273/

"The student in question was academically bright, had a reported IQ of 126 and was expected to graduate. When he was examined by CAT-scan, however, Lorber discovered that he had virtually no brain at all.

The student was suffering from hydrocephalus, the condition in which the cerebrospinal fluid, instead of circulating around the brain and entering the bloodstream, becomes dammed up inside.

Professor Lorber (who was a member of the committee sitting to decide who should be awarded the Nobel Prize) identified several hundred people who have very small cerebral hemispheres but who appear to be normal intelligent individuals. Some of them he describes as having ‘no detectable brain’, yet they have scored up to 120 on IQ tests."

Lorber also did studies on people who had a stroke, and they seemed to get better too....wow, even though the MRI said brain damage! Imagine that!

Guess what....MRI's can be wrong. I know mine was.....

"Stephen Hawking also communicates - in fact he is responsible for much of the communication software my patients use. "

I believe I did say that he communicates. However, no one would know that he, and many of your patients if they are using his devices, could talk if it wasnt' for those devices. Get it? He would be considered in a PVS if it wasn't for his own inventions. After he did all that, they descovered many people who were in nursing homes that were actually conscience. Another oops of the medical field. SEVERAL movies have been made on that.

"Autism is also NOT a vegetative state. AT ALL. And PLEAASE don't even try to compare them, beacuse thats sooooo far off from reality its just going to make me angry. "

If you think the thought of making you angry frightens me, then you have never met an Irish/Polish Catholic.

Autism is a form of a brain misfunction. Years ago when there was a diagnosis of Autism it was immediately suggested that they be institutionilized because they would never mature and develop. It was believed to be a form of brain damage. If you would actually read the links I provided on that subject, you would see how they are VERY similiar. Everyone knows now that there are resources and rehabilitations for the autisitic now. Imagine what we will know about people like Lauren in 20 years! THAT is the connection between the two.

Medicine is NEVER an exact science but for some reason we all bow down and believe everything we are told by doctors. Do you know 100% that Lauren is not conscience? Because if you do, then you need to go on Jeopordy because you would be smarter than every doctor on the face of this planet.

Sally -

"Actually you can thank that wacky liberal known as President Reagan for rescinding Jimmy Carter' Mental Health Systems Act.
You can thank him for doing away with involuntary hospitalization. Here is some reading for you:"

It may help if you read it.

"By the start of the Carter administration in 1977, involuntary commitment had been restricted to those who were deemed as potentially dangerous to themselves or, perhaps more significantly, those around them.2 Typically, the commitment had to be sponsored by a family member and/or ordered by the court. A result of this policy was that the mentally ill patient who refused treatment typically did not receive any at all.....

The final report of the commission to President Carter contained the recommendations upon which the Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 was based. Despite the methodological flaws of the earlier report, the act was considered a landmark in mental health care policy. The key to the proposals included an increase in funding for Community Mental Health Centers and continued federal government support for such programs. But this ran counter to the financial goals of the Reagan administration, these were of c ourse to reduce federal spending, reduce social programs, and transfer responsibility of many if not most government functions to the individual states. So, the law signed by President Carter was rescinded by Ronald Reagan on August 13, 1981. In accordance with the New Federalism and the demands of capital, mental health policy was now in the hands of individual states.

Because of the financial mess that started long before the Regan administration (and Carter's) Reagan gave control of that back to the states instead of draining the federal budget. We were in the middle of the cold war ya know. My Mom died in Kentucky where it was all the liberals in Kentucky that took the majority of family being able to commit a family member away. It was the democrats in power that put into state law that My Mom could sign herself out after 3 days even if there was no one to pick her up!

That is where my liberal rant comes in. I should have been more specific and stated what state she was in. In Indiana, where I live, the situation is not the same.

Valerie,
Wow! I have nothing more to say than, "you go, girl"!
(& LOL on the Irish/Polish Catholic!)

"Geeesh!"

Geeesh is right! Everyone is making assumptions but nobody knows what the truth is!

"Here's a theory! Maybe her father sexually molested her and she took to drugs to forget about it. Maybe he wants to keep her alive to do more of the same without worry of her ever telling!"

have you no shame?

"have you no shame?"

Jasper, I almost agreed with you on that, but then I saw the post Sally was responding to. I can see how things got out of hand.

Some of them he describes as having ‘no detectable brain’, yet they have scored up to 120 on IQ tests."

Valerie - that stuff is fascinating.

I have a couple co-workers who might fit into that category, partially. The first part sounds right, but I expect their IQs are a lot lower.

Doug

She overdosed on heroin, she was pregnant at the time. That is in the past. We can't change that or know exactly what was going through her mind.
Today she is a brain damaged woman with a daughter. Her mother, who sounds like a real peach, wants to starve and dehydrate her daughter to death. Her father wants to care for her until her natural death. Let him.

I don't get why its "starve and dehydrate" her to death? Why don't they just overdose on anesthesics like they do with animals? Just inject it right in her heart and poof she is dead in a few minutes. No mess.

DOUG,

Question 2:

MK: You come upon an obstacle. What is it? How do you overcome it?
I equip "Boots of Levitation" and jump over it.
Okay, seriously, a tree has fallen across the road. I carefully pick my way through the branches.

How funny are you? Magical boots? What happened to "I had to choose so I chose reality?" When it comes to obstacles, you (like me) prefer to face them with humor. But then you (like me) muddle through them step by step. (Unfortunately, the steps you take are not the same as the ones I take and we do not come to the same conclusions...)

Now the tree fell, so you see obstacles as things that happen, and not things that you cause. Could explain why taking responsibility for ones actions is not high on the priority list...

Then you carefully pick your way through...okay, that gave me a belly laugh. If there was ever a man who had "picked" his way through life, it's you. Every angle, every nuance, has been scrutinized so there are no loopholes in your logic (so you think), and you can safely stay in your "box"...You don't mention any scratches, or torn clothes either.

I also find it interesting that this was your shortest answer. Almost like you want to deal with your obstacles as quickly and neatly as possible, believing that everything can be "worked" out cleanly. If you're only thourough enough, you can emerge unscathed...

MK,

I wondered if long or short answer would make a difference. A good bit of the reason is that day I was in a hurry, so the answer was shorted due to that alone. I do like loose ends tied up and good solutions found.

The "magical boots" was a reference to role-playing computer or video games where you often have quests to do, and items that may help you along, as with articles of clothing, weapons, etc. I really was joking, there, and the reality of a downed tree is that those branches are sprangly and you gotta watch 'em.

I don't really think the differences between you and me are unfortunate, but just the reality of the world. The responsibility for a pregnancy is first and foremost that of the pregnant woman. She's not responsible to what you want, but to what she wants. Ending an unwanted pregnancy is taking responsibility for it. There's a situation that is not desired, and a remedy is found.

As for scratches, torn clothes, and "carefully," I've had plenty, and am hardly "very careful" in that way. I've had multiudes of bumps and bruises, and have gotten around 60 speeding tickets. So I think I'm plenty "scathed." That said, I do believe in thinking ahead and avoiding obstacles,and yeah - they are external things, not caused by myself, in the main. Get it done, clear the boards, and then we can be on message boards to our heart's content, play games, etc.

On logic, I'd say it's better to go with what applies to all of us, rather than just to some of us.

Doug

I don't get why its "starve and dehydrate" her to death? Why don't they just overdose on anesthesics like they do with animals? Just inject it right in her heart and poof she is dead in a few minutes. No mess.

Ummm...cause that's murder Sugar.

Well..all of it is actually..one is just more direct and to the point.

Sugar,
I'm sure her mother would be just fine with that.

Doug,

On logic, I'd say it's better to go with what applies to all of us, rather than just to some of us.

Provided of course, that you are capable of seeing what applies to all of us...

Doug,

Being a computer game freak myself (I played ZORK when it didn't have graphics!) I caught the whole boot/levitation thing...

With a legally binding contract, this mess wouldnt have started in the first place. Just telling someone what you want, in legal, and is considered hearsay in court and normally not allowed...

Posted by: midnite678 at February 6, 2008 1:09 PM

What is the point? She made a mistake and deserves to be killed because she didn't write a dang piece of paper?

Do you really want to live in a society that only protects the rights of those who have crossed all the legal t's and dotted all the bureaucratic i's? Think of the uninsured. Isn't it just their own fault for not signing up for SChip or Medicaid. Shall we deny them help because they didn't fill in the blanks?

I cannot agree with that blame the victim reasoning.

How many 18 year olds have a durable power of attorney for health care or living will?

Wouldn't that be something reasonable to cover in high school or are we too busy teaching more important things like Shakespearean sonnets?

The reason heroin is no longer used in regular medicine is that there is a very small difference between a normal effective dose and overdose. That is why people are more likely to harm themselves by accidentally overdosing on heroin. The medical establishment doesn't want the liability so they go with safer drugs.

How many 18 year olds have a durable power of attorney for health care or living will?

Wouldn't that be something reasonable to cover in high school or are we too busy teaching more important things like Shakespearean sonnets?

Posted by: Anonymous at February 7, 2008 5:18 PM

-----

Excellent, excellent, excellent point!

"Here's a theory! Maybe her father sexually molested her and she took to drugs to forget about it. Maybe he wants to keep her alive to do more of the same without worry of her ever telling!"

have you no shame?

Posted by: jasper at February 6, 2008 10:17 PM
........................................

Shame about what jasp? Is it my fault that men molest their daughters? Ask your priest about how many dirty daddies they have testified against.

Oh so "dehydrating and starving" her is not considered murder? I'd bloody well say it is. If you put it that way keeping her on life-support is assisted murder because its influencing the natural order.

"On logic, I'd say it's better to go with what applies to all of us, rather than just to some of us."

MK: Provided of course, that you are capable of seeing what applies to all of us...

I see that there are any number of religious beliefs, all around the world. Picking one and asserting that it applies to everybody isn't very believable, though.

Doug