UPDATE, 3:55p: See video here.
It turns out, however, the person who did the face spraying and hosing was a police officer who attends that church and apparently functions in a voluntary capacity there....
I have the name but having learned my lesson will await to release it.
The plot thickens now in 2 regards, 1st because the assaulter is a police officer and 2nd because fellow officers did not arrest him, even though they saw him assaulting Todd and the incident is on videotape. Todd is on his way to the station now to retrieve a copy.
UPDATE, 11:55a: I'm removing the name of the pastor because there is now a dispute whether it was he or a parent who sprayed and hosed Todd. Todd is sure it's him, having spoken with him on other occasions, but a church spokesperson disputed it when another pro-lifer called this morning. I just called but was told the pastors are off on Mondays.
09:47a: I reported last week pro-life activist Todd Bullis was launching "The Church Project" to educate pastors and congregants of Ventura, CA, churches of the reality of abortion through signs of graphic abortion images.
Currently only 10 of 100 Ventura churches support pregnancy care centers. Todd's mission is to rouse churches in his ministry area to become more proactive in opposing abortion by picketing 1 church a week.
Todd launched his effort last Sunday at Reality Ventura Church, and the morning went relatively smoothly.
Yesterday's picket at Ventura First Assembly of God did not.
Allegedly a pastor assaulted Bullis. Here's what happened, according to Todd in an email...
The pastor came out with a spray bottle of water and another spray bottle with vinegar and sprayed me in the face. First he sprayed me with the water and then he sprayed me with the vinegar. By the time I knew what was happening it was too late. My eyes were burning and I had to turn away. My son was videoing the whole thing.
My other son then called the cops. At that point I was trying to rub my eyes and see what was going on, and the pastor got a big reel of water hose out of his car and connected it to the church water spigot. I was still just standing there holding my sign when he walked up about 6 or 8 feet from me and just started spraying me with the hose. I just stood there waiting for the cops.
After about 2 mins of this soaking me the cops showed up and they saw him spraying me with the hose. The cops said they saw him squirting me with the hose and the pastor admitted to the cops that he did it.
How shocking and disturbing if the portrayal of these events is accurate.
The police confiscated Todd's videotape for evidence, but fortunately pro-life tough guy Gregg Cunningham of the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform is shepherding Todd and has instructed him to go to the police department this morning and not leave until he gets a copy or the original of his videotape. Of course I'll post it as soon as it's available. Pray it isn't destroyed.
Gregg is advising Todd to press criminal and civil charges. Gregg has already sent Greg Totten, Ventura Co. District Attorney, a letter demanding prosecution for assault.
I am also committing to coming to Ventura Co. with our trucks and signs as quickly as possible for as large a presence as we can mount at this church to send a message that this sort of assault will only motivate us to lay siege to an offending church. I want the word to go out that if we are attacked, we will make a career of surrounding your church with a huge abortion photo presence which we will maintain until we see genuine repentance.
This whole matter is a good example of how tolerance is a totally misunderstood concept, anymore.Posted by: Andrew Haines at March 29, 2010 9:57 AM
I wonder if Pastor Dave was somehow involved in an abortion? Wow. This saddens and sickens me. Praying for Todd and for repentance of this church.Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 10:09 AM
Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 10:09 AM
Carla - that was my exact thought as I read the post.Posted by: Chris Arsenault at March 29, 2010 10:10 AM
Thank you all for your prayers. God will use this day I am sure of it. I thank God I and my team stayed in Christ and did not react to this pastors assault. My two sons were with me and I was so proud of them, you guys should of seen how well they did. Just 15 and 17 years old.Posted by: Todd Bullis at March 29, 2010 10:18 AM
Here's a suggestion for all future activists. Videotape and cameras get confiscated regularly when filing police reports. Furthermore getting through the red-tape to get your property returned stalls the process of getting your captured incidents online to a near halt.
If you have a smart phone, use it. Immediately upload to YouTube or stream it live using a UStream application which will archive all your recordings.Posted by: Cranky Catholic at March 29, 2010 10:21 AM
Carla, Chris, my thought, too. It's hard to find another explanation for such irrational, guttural behavior.
Todd, what are you doing here?! Get thee down to the police station and get the videotape! :)Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 10:22 AM
I have to say I'm stunned and confused by this whole thing. The Assemblies of God as a fellowship are pro-life. Why was this particular church being picketed? Have they preached or practiced something contrary to the pro-life philosophy?
Todd, I'm so sorry to hear that you were treated in this manner. I'm just wondering what the reason for the picket was.Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 10:25 AM
Kel, read the links.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 10:26 AM
I believe the reason for the protest was to raise awareness. Many churches claim to be pro-life but blissfully sit in their pews and refuse to actually take a stand against abortion. Other churches flat-out tolerate it. Sometimes people need a little wake-up call before they realize the magnitude of sin and decide to do something about it.
I'm disgusted at the way this pastor saw fit to treat others. There's no excuse for it.Posted by: army_wife at March 29, 2010 10:28 AM
Ah, ok, I see. So the motive is to implore them to become more actively involved. Thanks!
I still am just really stunned that a youth pastor would do something like this. I agree with you, Carla, that perhaps there is a past abortion involved with this horrible reaction.Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 10:32 AM
If he had a problem with the signs, why didn't this youth pastor try to talk to Todd before assaulting him like this? I agree -- he must have been involved in procuring an abortion for someone.
I hope that Todd presses charges.Posted by: Phillymiss at March 29, 2010 11:10 AM
Not at all surprised.
Truth is hate to those who hate the truth.
I've been verbally assaulted and threatened with physical assault in similar situations, even in public in broad daylight surrounded by thousands of other people within earshot. "I'll follow you back to your car with a tire iron." Or "I'll follow you home and rape your kids." And so on.
On one occasion, a pastor (of a liberal, pro-gay church) brutally cussed out my friends and me with language that would make a sailor blush, again in broad daylight at a major festival here in Denver, surrounded by thousands of people.
I would have been surprised if something like this *didn't* happen with at least one of the churches they went to in this project. I'm just glad no one was physically assaulted (ie. punching, weapons, etc.) Not yet, anyway.Posted by: Jamie Schofield at March 29, 2010 11:17 AM
As a pro life educator it saddens and makes me angry that churches are my toughest customers. I am sick of all their reasons.....they are more concerned with hurting peoples feelings than telling the truth. They are so afraid people will leave the church if they speak truth to them. Don't they realize people are desperate for the truth.
Todd and friends: Keep the faith!! I so admire what you are doing!
It is so sad to hear from Susie that churches are her toughest customers!! The murder of innocent babies should be a priority for all - especially the church crowd.Posted by: Lovethemboth at March 29, 2010 11:44 AM
What happened to Tood Bullis at a church demonstrates exactly why we still have legal abortion in the country.
Thank you Mr. Bullis for your courage.Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 11:49 AM
As the Lord judged Israel for sacrificing children to Molech so too God will judge His church for sacrifing children to the God of convenience, wealth and a flase Gospel:
Jeremiah 7:30-34 (New Living Translation)
The Valley of Slaughter
30 “The people of Judah have sinned before my very eyes,” says the Lord. “They have set up their abominable idols right in the Temple that bears my name, defiling it. 31 They have built pagan shrines at Topheth, the garbage dump in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they burn their sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing! 32 So beware, for the time is coming,” says the Lord, “when that garbage dump will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. They will bury the bodies in Topheth until there is no more room for them. 33 The bodies of my people will be food for the vultures and wild animals, and no one will be left to scare them away. 34 I will put an end to the happy singing and laughter in the streets of Jerusalem. The joyful voices of bridegrooms and brides will no longer be heard in the towns of Judah. The land will lie in complete desolation.
2 Peter 2 (New Living Translation)
2 Peter 2
The Danger of False Teachers
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.
4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell,[a] in gloomy pits of darkness,[b] where they are being held until the day of judgment. 5 And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. 6 Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. 7 But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. 9 So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. 10 He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority.
These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings[c] without so much as trembling. 11 But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord[d] a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings.
12 These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. 13 Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception[e] even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. 14 They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. 15 They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor,[f] who loved to earn money by doing wrong. 16 But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.
17 These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. 18 They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. 19 They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. 20 And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.”[g] And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”
Sounds like that pastor's conscience was bothering him.Posted by: Alo Konsen at March 29, 2010 12:09 PM
God, I thank you that you are working in the hearts of man to no longer sit by and allow the murdering of your children. I pray that Christians WAKE UP and you give them boldness to confront the horrors of abortion in Jesus' name.Posted by: Tricia at March 29, 2010 12:24 PM
All, read my corrections. It wasn't the pastor. It was a police officer who attends church there. I'm sorry for the incorrect information given. I've offered to apologize to the pastor.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 1:13 PM
Todd lied. The parents of small children asked him to move away from the entrance to the church for their kids' sake entering Sunday School. You've blown this way out. You should know the truth before making accusations. I am pro-life and support everything pro-life except Todd and his band of ??? They are getting the wrong attention drawn to the cause I so dearly love and drive people away instead of rallying support. I belive Todd's version of the gospel would make Jesus sad. : (Posted by: paula at March 29, 2010 1:23 PM
This story seems to be getting sketchier and sketchier. I'd like to hear from some of the other parties involved.Posted by: len at March 29, 2010 1:25 PM
Yes, Jill but who will apologize to the millions of unborn children who have been slaughtered because of the church's relative silence on the abortion holocaust?
The failure of the church to speak up, to protest, to condemn, to rise up in righteous and holy indignation at the performance of each and every legal abortion in this country is no less damnable.
I apologize to each and every murdered baby that has perished as a result of my silence, my apathy, my lethargy, my laziness, my ignorance, and my cowardice for failing not to speak up but rather choosing instead to seek comfort and the avoidance of controversy. Lord, please forgive me.Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 1:30 PM
Paula, to say "Todd lied" is to project your feelings of protection re: your church.
Todd videotapes his protests precisely so the truth cannot be altered, so there will be no "he said/she said" when incidents happen, like yesterday.
While Todd initially got the name of the person wrong who sprayed and hosed him, the fact is one of your members sprayed and hosed him. Now is not the time to get holier than thou.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 1:34 PM
You and I both know that the church is relatively silent on the abortion issue. We must be honest on this as we cannot escape the facts.
We both know, despite all the feeble attempts that the church makes at assuaging their own guilt by the very little they do to oppose legalized abortion, over 4,000 abortions are performed each day in this country alone. Did you know that because of the Roe v. Wade precedent that over 4 billion children have been murdered worldwide since 1973? And you think God is saddened by Todd's actions? Perhaps a mistake was made in identifying who did this, however, it was still a Christian who did this.
Was Jesus concerned with what children saw when He turned over the money changers' tables at the Temple? No! He wanted the children to see what their hypocrite parents, temple-goers, seekers of comfort and pleasure and the good life, were doing.
I'll tell you what saddens Jesus - the church has chosen to disengage itself from the abortion issue because they are afraid of losing and "offending" donation paying members since it is estimated that over 70% of abortions have been committed by those calling themselves Christians.
Todd recognizes this and has courageously chosen to do something about it.
God's word says that judgment begins with the house of the Lord, that's you and me. He also says, "if my people who are called by my name....I will heal their land", that's also you and me.
Do you really think that if the church, you and me, repented of this horrific evil that abortion would still be legal in this country or do you think the Lord would have healed us of it by now.....37 years later?
I understand where you're coming from but until we recognize and admit what a horrific evil abortion is and yes, allow our children to know, see, understand and feel what a heinous evil abortion is, they too, our children are subject to being deceived by it.Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 1:53 PM
"The parents of small children asked him to move away from the entrance to the church for their kids' sake entering Sunday School"
Hmmm...this was a teachable moment for those kids, Paula.
If the kids seeing the pics are too young to understand what happened in the pic then they won't be offended by what they see.
If the kids say "who broke the baby", then you can educate why this horrible thing has happened and keeps on happening.Posted by: RSD at March 29, 2010 2:00 PM
Truth...Parents of small children asked him to move down...Parents who are pro-life...And Todd says NO and then claims he was assaulted by a parent in Sunday dress with water????
What is your message again??? Don't forget we are standing together for the unborn, right?
Truth: Does your church financially support your local pregnancy center?
Truth: How many minutes has your pastor spent in the last year... two years... five years... preaching against abortion from the pulpit?
Truth: Todd has gotten the video from police and is uploading it to YouTube.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
RSD, children exposed to graphic photos of aborted babies respond by cues from parents. If a parent takes the opportunity to educate, the child is educated. If the parent freaks out, the child freaks out.
I know many, many completely well-adjusted kids and adults who started attending graphic pickets when babies.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 2:29 PM
I thank God for the body of Christ. I love the working of the ministry and I know pro-life is the heart of God but so is love for the poor, the needy and one another. Good for Todd and his utube. Will this advance the pro life cause? or cause division? It seems that the spotlight is on Todd and his water assault not the unborn..Posted by: paula at March 29, 2010 2:32 PM
If Todd were at my church doing this I would have asked him to come in and explain why he was doing this, graphic photos and all.
The crucifixion was not nice. Do we also ignore this and risk turning our children into "sons of hell", denying the utter evil of abortion?
Yesterday at Phoenix First Assembly's Palm Sunday service, a bloodied, crucified Jesus was lifted up on a cross. Children were in the assembly seeing this. No warnings were given, no disclaimers. What say you?Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 2:35 PM
Paula, no "but's" allowed. Does your church financially support your local pregnancy care center or not? Does your pastor speak against abortion from the pulpit or not?
We're getting to the point of Todd's protest. Rome is burning. 1.3 million children are dying every year in America from abortion. What is your church doing about it?
One other truth: Todd met with your pastor within the last few weeks and told him he'd be protesting your church within the next few weeks.
Division, schmuvision. Read your Bible. Jesus triumphantly rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday and promptly went to the temple and threw a fit. Paul publicly rebuked Peter. On and on. If your church is no different than churches located in Nazi Germany that ignored the Holocaust, Todd was right to call you out.
And Todd correctly followed the steps according to Matthew 18 before so doing.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 2:39 PM
I love the working of the ministry and I know pro-life is the heart of God but so is love for the poor, the needy and one another. Good for Todd and his utube. Will this advance the pro life cause? or cause division? It seems that the spotlight is on Todd and his water assault not the unborn..
Posted by: paula at March 29, 2010 2:32 PM
Paula, if people were being slaughtered legally just down the street from you and you chose to ignore it because there were more worthy causes in your opinion, I would really be concerned.
And I am concerned, because that IS what is going on in America. Who are the poor and needy? Who are those who have no voice and need an advocate?
Proverbs 24:11,12 says: "Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter.
If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?"
Having love for the poor, needy, and one another includes our preborn brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, doesn't it? And yet, they are largely ignored, their cries heard only by God himself. Surely they are the poorest and neediest among us.Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 2:47 PM
The church has been turned into a country club of nicety over truth, of sauces over repentance, of the good life over the examined life, mammon over God, nice feeling over suffering, compromise over righteousness.
Want success? Ask God for it. Want a car? Ask God for it? Want health? Just believe. But don't, don't you dare ask for more holiness for that requires obedience.
God, please forgive me for living like this. Use me God.Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 2:50 PM
We think we are right with God because we go to the church building every Sunday, are nice with everyone, do a few good deeds to the "poor and needy" thinking we have just pleased our Savior. Yet, we are blinded by our own sin and oblivious to God's heart for what we have done and allowed.
The church has been blinded by the sin of abortion and they are in need of repentance.
The state of the church's' conscience in this country can be summed up in the account of the priest Nathan's reaction to King David who committed adultery and murder:
2 Samuel 12
Nathan Rebukes David
1 The LORD sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, 3 but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him.
4 "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him."
5 David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die! 6 He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity."
7 Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.'
11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "
Note, the "little ewe lamb" metaphor. If an unborn child in the womb of it's mother is not a "little ewe lamb", I do not know what is. David was incensed that someone would do this and he realized that it was he.
The very sad part of this is that the church knows what abortion is, they know what is happening to children in the womb and they still refuse to repent. At least David repented, however, the consequences of his sin were terrible beyond words.
We are in very grave danger as a result of our failure to act against the protection of these "least of these" little ewe lambs. We have not repented because the church has failed to be the Nathan that it was called to be. God have mercy on us, God have mercy on me.Posted by: Phil Schembri is HisMan at March 29, 2010 3:13 PM
I don't approve of anyone assaulting anyone else, but this just goes to show that hate speech has its consequences. You can't just stand around displaying inflammatory images and words, obviously fishing for reactions, and then complain when you get the wrong kind of reaction. I hope Todd recovers and more importantly I hope he learns his lesson so that this sort of altercation won't happen again.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 3:50 PM
Great to hear you preaching the truth Jill!
Not that you don't make your position clear everyday in the blog.
It's just that there seems to be a little bit different vibe when you're mixing it up down here in the comments section - edgier, more intense.
I think that is going to be the effect of this health care bill. People like FedUp are getting fed up.
Enough is enough!Posted by: Ed at March 29, 2010 3:52 PM
What about the dead babies Anne?
The almost 4000 that are killed in this country everyday.
Does someone need to learn a lesson about that?Posted by: Ed at March 29, 2010 3:54 PM
sorry "them?"Posted by: Ed at March 29, 2010 3:55 PM
You really need to get off this "dead babies" kick. The vast, vast majority of people in the US do not consider abortion in any way, shape or form to be "murder" and do not consider fetuses to be "babies" either. I certainly do not. Here's some softer, more reasonable terminology you could use: "potential life." It would certainly lead to more civil discussions when one side isn't raging about "dead babies" and looking like total lunatics in the process.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 3:59 PM
"I don't approve of anyone assaulting anyone else, but this just goes to show that hate speech has its consequences. "
Truth = hate speech?Posted by: Lucy at March 29, 2010 4:02 PM
"Potential life" would be wholly inaccurate. Sperm and egg, separately, have the "potential" to produce life when they come together. A NEW HUMAN LIFE comes into being when they join. Whee, isn't science fun??! I mean, hey, even Wikipedia knows: A zygote (from Greek ζυγωτός zygōtos "joined" or "yoked", from ζυγοῦν zygoun "to join" or "to yoke"), or zygocyte, is the initial cell formed when a new organism is produced by means of sexual reproduction. A zygote is synthesized from the union of two gametes, and constitutes the first stage in a unique organism's development.
The vast majority of people in the U.S. consider themselves pro-life, actually. Fetuses are living human beings, and regardless of how you try to dehumanize them and spin it, Anne, they are what they are. At least have the honesty to come out and say you know abortion takes the life of a human being, but you don't care.Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 4:15 PM
"The vast, vast majority of people in the US do not consider abortion in any way, shape or form to be "murder" and do not consider fetuses to be "babies" either"
There was a time when the majority of Americans did not believe that African-Americans were people, either. A slave was viewed as property, and not a human life.
Just as with abortion, you had to dehumanize the victims in order to justify the practice.
"Here's some softer, more reasonable terminology you could use: "potential life." "
I would call that more inaccurate terminology,though it may soothe many a conscience. The unborn child is a life, not a "potential life". Any biology textbook will tell you that.
"It would certainly lead to more civil discussions when one side isn't raging about "dead babies" and looking like total lunatics in the process."
Unlike women who scream "Keep your rosaries off our ovaries" while foaming at the mouth.Posted by: Lucy at March 29, 2010 4:17 PM
Ed, interesting observation.
Frankly, Paula just pissed me off. I had just spoken with her on the phone and thought we came to an understanding.
Then she came on here and pronounced Todd had lied. About what?! That's what got me going.
Paula dismissed the tremendously immature behavior by a parishioner on her end - assault - and didn't express anger with the people who actually caused the dismemberments displayed in the graphic photos. She got mad at the people showing the graphic photos.Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 29, 2010 4:17 PM
You are wrong about the majority. The prolifers are now in the majority. You are in the minority.
You cannot own what you support can you? You support abortion then take an intense look at the little mutilated hands, feet, arms, legs and faces of "choice."
Call me any name you wish. I have been called absolutely vile, disgusting things. Ah...civility gotta love it!
I will stand on the side of truth. The side that fights for the lives of unborn children and their mothers before, during and after they deliver their babies!Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 4:18 PM
"The vast majority of people in the U.S. consider themselves pro-life, actually."
Really? You have statistics that show that the vast majority of people in the US consider abortion to be murder? It's one thing to identify as "pro-life" (which I think most people would do) and a completely different thing to act like a tyrant and demand that abortion is banned because you consider it murder.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 4:19 PM
Anne, what happens in an abortion and why do so many pro-aborts (including our President) acknowledge it as a "difficult" and often "tragic" decision?Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 4:23 PM
"Unlike women who scream "Keep your rosaries off our ovaries" while foaming at the mouth."
That's a defensive position because there are a lot of people who DO want to force their rosaries on women's ovaries. It's not the same as the so-called "pro-life" position which desires to remove an existing right that women have. How could anyone not be defensive about that? "Sorry, we want to take away your constitutional right to have an abortion because we consider it immoral."Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 4:23 PM
Posted by: Kel at March 29, 2010 4:23 PM
Are you trying to say that calling abortion a difficult and tragic decision is the same as considering it murder and demanding that it be banned? Because if not, this is irrelevant.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 4:25 PM
Again with the namecalling. Tyrant.
I demand like a tyrant that you prove with basic science and reasoning that the unborn aren't human.
Killing your own child is not a right.Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 4:27 PM
Why is abortion tragic?? Why is it difficult??
Because it kills a growing, unborn human child? Nah.Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 4:30 PM
Of course "killing your own child" is not a right, Carla. Getting an abortion, however, is a constitutionally-guaranteed right in America. I can't believe you're relying on a simple Gallup poll to assert that "a vast majority of Americans think abortion is murder." The poll doesn't even define its variables: what does "pro-life" mean, what does "pro-choice" mean, what does "abortion" even mean to the respondents? What happens when the next Gallup poll asking this question swings back to around to a majority of people self-identifying as "pro-choice"? No reasonable person could look at the results of this poll and conclude that a majority of Americans want abortion to be banned.
And why do some people call abortion tragic and difficult? Frankly I have no idea. My sister got an abortion when she was 20 and everything went fine for her. None of the horror stories about ruptured uteruses and life-long depression and breast cancer and all the other nonsense that people here like to throw around. She was, however, able to continue her life without a pregnancy that would have financially and emotionally ruined her at that age.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 4:42 PM
"That's a defensive position because there are a lot of people who DO want to force their rosaries on women's ovaries."
Ummm, what on earth do women's ovaries have to do with abortion? The baby grows in the uterus, not the ovaries. The slogan is ridiculous, and anybody who uses it needs to review a biology textbook.
"It's not the same as the so-called "pro-life" position which desires to remove an existing right that women have."
Murder is not a right.Posted by: Lucy at March 29, 2010 4:42 PM
That same biology textbook would also tell you that virgin birth is impossible, Lucy, but that doesn't stop these mostly-religious "pro-lifers" who are suddenly so concerned with objective scientific facts to change their beliefs on that.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 4:49 PM
My child died in my abortion, Anne. There are no two ways about that. She was living when I walked in and she was dead when I walked out. I left her torn body there.
I can't believe that you can't comprehend a thing we are saying. Or choose not to. You write like a loon.Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 5:01 PM
Are you a murderer or an accomplice to murder then, Carla?Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:05 PM
I am a murderer, Anne. A murderer forgiven by Christ.
At least I own what I have done.
You can't own a thing that you say that you support.Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 5:06 PM
You're a murderer? So there's nothing that makes you any different from someone doing 25-to-life in a maximum security prison for killing a convenience store clerk? Oh, except that you're "forgiven by Christ" (and not incarcerated). Somehow I don't think you really see yourself that way.Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:12 PM
And I don't want you to think I'm antagonizing you here (because I'm not), but let me ask you a hypothetical question, Carla. Suppose you get your wish, and abortion is made illegal and deemed murder in the eyes of the law. Where does that leave post-abortive women such as yourself and my sister, legally, now that the state has decided that abortion is homicide? Does that mean there are millions of murderers walking the streets now, free and clear?Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:18 PM
A murderer forgiven by Christ.
Posted by: carla at March 29, 2010 5:06 PM
Wow, those are 5 powerful words. I haven't been moved to tears in a while, but that did it. God bless you, Carla! Thank you for never failing to speak out and reach out. How dear to the heart of God you must be :)Posted by: Fed Up at March 29, 2010 5:24 PM
And why do some people call abortion tragic and difficult? Frankly I have no idea. My sister got an abortion when she was 20 and everything went fine for her. None of the horror stories about ruptured uteruses and life-long depression and breast cancer and all the other nonsense that people here like to throw around. She was, however, able to continue her life without a pregnancy that would have financially and emotionally ruined her at that age.
Anne, your sister had sex and sex causes babies. If she were not willing or able to parent that child she made, she could have placed him/her for adoption. Basically, she killed your niece or nephew simply because it was the easiest choice for her. You say that not killing the baby would have ruined her, but she actually did destroy your niece/nephew. She choose to make him/her, and he/she lost his/her life. Is that fair?Posted by: Jacqueline at March 29, 2010 5:26 PM
"And I don't want you to think I'm antagonizing you here (because I'm not), but let me ask you a hypothetical question, Carla. Suppose you get your wish, and abortion is made illegal and deemed murder in the eyes of the law. Where does that leave post-abortive women such as yourself and my sister, legally, now that the state has decided that abortion is homicide? Does that mean there are millions of murderers walking the streets now, free and clear?"
Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:18 PM
You can't make a law retroactive like that. If something is legally protected when someone does it, it's completely ridiculous to set up a law that goes backwards in time and changes that. In fact, I think we may even have a rule against doing that sort of thing in the US...
Yup. Article 1, Section 9 and Section 10 of the Constitution. "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. ... No State shall...pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law..."Posted by: Keli Hu at March 29, 2010 5:31 PM
What is your sister?
I am wondering if the abortionist is the killer? He did the killing. He killed my daughter. I paid for it. I am the hitman, then? Hmmmm.
Call me whatever you want, Anne. It doesn't matter much to me. I am forgiven and set free.
Posted by: carla
at March 29, 2010 5:41 PM
Hugs to you, Fed Up!
Posted by: Keli Hu at March 29, 2010 5:31 PM
But abortion is apparently the greatest human rights violation of all time, according to popular sentiment here. Even worse than the Holocaust, and the people responsible for that were brought in front of international trials on charges of "crimes against humanity." Following this line of logic, then, shouldn't post-abortive women be charged in the Hague? This should go way beyond simple US law, right?Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:47 PM
Anne, look at the pictures and tell us what you see? By what standard do you say these "babies" are not human beings? I see arms, legs, eyes, noses, mouths, toes, and yes hearts that once beat,just ask the children who do see the pictures what they see. They will tell you the truth like no others in this world can. Jesus knew this and said so. To deny what is right in front of you is the lie and hateful to all the lost innocents. I can think of nothing more hateful than ripping a child from the womb piece by piece, burning it alive with a saline solution, piercing its skull and scrambling its tiny brain, stabbing its tiny beating heart with a hypodermic needle full of potassium to stop the beat. How is this not a living human baby to you? There is hate here but not on the part of those who show us what abortion is. And....if you don't believe it's a baby why does it so offend you?Posted by: Rebecca M. Brooks at March 29, 2010 6:13 PM
"But abortion is apparently the greatest human rights violation of all time, according to popular sentiment here. Even worse than the Holocaust, and the people responsible for that were brought in front of international trials on charges of 'crimes against humanity.' Following this line of logic, then, shouldn't post-abortive women be charged in the Hague? This should go way beyond simple US law, right?"
Posted by: Anne at March 29, 2010 5:47 PM
Now you just sound upset that I pointed out your hypothetical doesn't even make sense in theory. Abortion is a human rights violation. Ex post facto laws are also human rights violations. The agreement on that point is far broader than "simple US law." Two wrongs do not make a right. No one should be killed just because they exist. No one should be made a criminal for doing something that was legal at the time, regardless of how moral it was or was not. You do not have to choose which human right you're going to violate. This is not a dichotomy.Posted by: Keli Hu at March 29, 2010 6:14 PM
Today, I sent this letter to the pastor at this church:
Please forward to Tony Cervero,
Dear Rev. Cervero,
I am a former Elder and a committed Christ follower, who recently read in a blog that I read ( http://www.jillstanek.com/pastor-sprays-hoses-pro-life-a.html ) about an incident at your church. You can read the article yourself and determine the veracity of the account given there. I do not consider it to be my task to comment upon the alleged actions of any of your staff.
I do consider it to be my concern, the recent attention that your church has attracted with the suggestion that you do not support the right to life cause. I find that to be a disturbing suggestion for an AG church to shun rather than embrace the pro-life message.
Please excuse me if I have this all wrong. If you already understand that the taking of innocent life, the "spilling of innocent blood" is an abomination before the Lord, then you already know that this threatens the relationship that our country has with Our Lord.
If you don't yet understand this, then please push aside the furor that surrounds this incident and consider the nation of Israel in your prayer closet. During the reign of Ahab and Jezebel, Israel met their darkest hour in their service before the Lord. Being an agrarian society, the well-being of the yearly crops, and the concern over yields was an overarching concern. You know of Elijah, and his battle of faith against the priests of Baal. You should also know of the backstory involving the Topeth. The people of Israel struggled with their faith, as we often do. One of their darkest struggles was over their Baal worship. A practice that Jezebel brought among the people, was the worship of Molech. He was the god of storms and rain. The people worshipped him by trying to entice him to consort with a goddess to produce the fruitfulness of nature. This enticement took the form of sex with shrine prostitutes, who would conceive. The Topeth was both a drum, and a hollow statue erected to Molech. The statue would be filled with coals and stoked until it would become white hot. The people would then sacrifice their babies, conceived with the prostitutes, by placing them on the white hot statue. The Topeth drums would be beaten to drown out the screams of the infants that were sacrificed in this way. You can read what The Lord has to say about that practice at the end of Jeremiah, Chapter 7. This was the manner in which they caused "...to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart."(KJV).
What we are allowing today is no different than what they did in that day. We are no longer an agrarian society. We no longer serve the gods of the Baals. We are a more evolved people. The only problem is that when we are confronted with an "unwanted" pregnancy, the thought is about how much time and money it would take to care for that child.(Crops) Do I have what it takes to raise a child? I can't do that! (Faith?) I planned to go to College. I can't let a baby interfere with those plans! (Selfishness) It really sounds to me like we have the same Baals, but they have different names.
It is not a choice, it is a baby. It is a human being that was "knitted together in my mother's womb". It was an act of a loving God, seeking to bless you for the rest of your days. In today's world, we don't use drums. When that child is still in the womb, there are no audible screams. In Assyria, a country (at the time) known for it's cruelty, the result of the Topeth was graveyards carrying the burnings that were yards thick. Year after year, these babies were sacrificed and these cruel Assyrians would bury the bodies in a graveyard. In today's world, it's a red bag and a medical waste facility. Yes, we are the evolved ones.
At the beginning of the bible, we hear our Lord say: "Where is your brother Abel?" "His blood cries out to me from the ground." In the same manner, this modern day holocaust sends innocent blood to the ground, and if you listen close enough, you can hear the cries thru the Spirit of the One who unites us.
Brother, please do not take this wrong. I am not advocating a return to the dark days where our sins troubled us day after day. We have been released from the penalty by the One who cares for us. His blood is a healing balm that wipes the stain from us. The only chains that fetter us, are those that we cling to. My earnest plea to you is to understand the chain that I hope you have laid down (in His power). If we are daily being renewed from death unto life, then my hope is that this word in His Spirit will serve as those who witnessed the Lord's miracle before the tomb of Lazarus, and helped Lazarus to remove the graveclothes that bound him.
If the problem is one of focus, I hope that these words have served to awaken the Spirit of our Lord when he said to "suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not. For such is the Kingdom of Heaven." This problem is a horrible evil in our midst, and I would implore you to count the cost, and stand in the gap.
Thank you for your service and your significant investment in Prayer over this issue.
Terre Haute, IN
For sake of clarity, Paula emailed me today to tell me of concerned parents who asked Mr Bullis to move his display away from the entrance for the sake of the children.
I see in the threads of the comments here, that there is no evidence of support being offered by this church to the efforts to stop the mad destruction of an entire generation.
At our church, the local CPC organization is a significant part of our local missions budget. We have a couple of folks attending who volunteer as counselors at the CPC. Our pastor is also attending the yearly fund raising dinner, along with several folks from the congregation.
I would expect this type of a response when asked what the commitment of a particular church is.
From what I understand, Mr. Bullis contacted the pastor of this church to let him know of his planned activities.
If nothing else, could I perhaps beg the Body of Christ to engage together on this fight? As I told Jill earlier today, there is often strife in the Body due to different callings. I can understand a limited commitment by an expression that is full tilt pointed in a direction that the Lord has illuminated. From what I can tell from the evidence, I would consider our commitment as "Limited", and the commitment of this church to be non-existent.
AG Churches are considered to be "Full Gospel" churches. The truth of helping to save innocent life is a part of the Gospel in the environment in which we find ourself today. Is Mr. Bullis justified in his cause? The indications that I can see point in that direction. I would advise him not to seek charges though. While it might be the right thing to do politically, this is a family dispute. The Bible advises us to judge ourselves.Posted by: Bob Kellum at March 29, 2010 8:24 PM
This is a perfect example of the american church today . Abortion clinics everywhere . 4000 babies aborted everyday . Christian so worried about filling the pews of the church ,Building mega churches instead of coming outside of the walls and engaging the culture with the gospel . Going to abortin clinics begging young woman not to kill there babies . They rather attack a man that is putting it all on the line to save babies . shame on that pastor to spray a Godly men like that .Prov 17-15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.
If you all cared about influencing the church then you would go in and talk one on one as the Bible commands rather than distracting from the ministry of a very caring, devoted church body by becoming an obstruction on a worship morning.
Maybe your "cause" has become more important than reaching people for salvation.
I think you all need to get your facts straight before you go off on a church, its pastors, and its parishoners. These public blogs basically spread gossip and encourage "bearing false witness" against others.
What happened to the Bible's commands not to bring other Christians to court? Harassing other Christians only drives nonbelievers from the gospel.Posted by: Elsa at April 1, 2010 12:35 AM
Did you watch the video Elsa?
"I think you all need to get your facts straight"
What other facts should we know about? The pictures of the murdered babies and the video of someone being sprayed who is not even on church property is enough fact for me.
I sure hope the man spraying vinegar is not an example of your very caring, devoted members. I hope the people talking nasty and laughing in the background with children present are not an example of your caring, devoted membership. If this is a sampling, your one on one counseling needs some updating.
"Harassing other Christians only drives
nonbelievers from the gospel." You are blaming a victim who is standing up for victims for non-believers not coming to or staying at the gospel! This sentence is another example of the bullying ones I talked about above.
"Maybe your "cause" has become more important than reaching people for salvation." This statement speaks volumes. Shouldn't this "cause" also be yours?
The unborn are not "bearing false witness" against anyone.
Posted by: Praxedes
at April 1, 2010 4:04 AM