by Colleen W.
On the blogs today...
But apparently the NAACP has more important things to do than oppose the racist genocide of abortion. Instead, as La Shawn Barber reports, linking to a USA Today article, continuing opposition to the Confederate Flag is a much better use of time. In La Shawn's sarcastic words, "Very useful! That's what I'm talking about. Quite important stuff they're doing. Life-changing ideas, indeed, sure to advance colored people. Keep up the good work."
I'm confused. If abortion is legal, what difference does it make WHY she cut the cord...? Either the cord was prolapsed and it wasn't her fault, or she did it on purpose and that's not illegal...what gives? Can I get arrested for pulling my own tooth? Removing my own warts?Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 1:47 PM
I agree with MK. Legally, the woman shouldn't be charged with manslaughter. If she did cut the cord on purpose, then she was probably pretty stupid, risking infection and all sorts of problems, but it isn't a crime.
The NAACP has much better things to do than try to roll back women's rights. If black women do have more abortions than other women--and the stats suggest that they do--then it is a matter of giving black women equal conditions with other women, which the NAACP is doing. Even something like opposing the Confederate flag affects the conditions under which American blacks live and could, though probably very indirectly, affect the choices they make. Until then, we just have to trust a black woman to know what's best for herself.Posted by: DRF at July 17, 2008 1:55 PM
Wait, Montgomery, Georgia? Yes, abortion after twenty-six weeks is illegal there, but is the woman charged with abortion or do they only charge the doctors (which is a whole other issue)? But then she would be charged with illegally performing an abortion on herself, not with manslaughter.Posted by: DRF at July 17, 2008 1:58 PM
They cannot charge this woman! If they do, it is opening the gateway to making all abortions illegal, then, before you know it, women will be coming in to hospitals with their water broken and umbilical cords cut in attempts to self-abort...oh...wait a minute...Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 2:08 PM
lol.Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 2:31 PM
How does one manage to cut the umbilcal cord while the baby is inside? I'm confused.Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 3:07 PM
I'm confused about this too.
Perhaps they thought they were *supposed* to cut the cord when they saw it coming out?
I can't imagine any way they could have cut the cord unless it was already prolapsed, in which case it would seem doubtful they were *trying* to kill the child.
It all seems very strange to me.
In other news... We had our baby!
She was born on July 12 at 4:26 pm. She weighed 5lbs 11oz and is doing well. :)Posted by: lauren at July 17, 2008 3:20 PM
CONGRATULATIONS LAUREN!Posted by: Bethany at July 17, 2008 3:33 PM
Congrats Lauren!! What did you name her?
Lauren, Congrats!!Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 3:43 PM
Oh baby! Congratulations Lauren!!Posted by: Carla at July 17, 2008 3:48 PM
Hurray! When things settle down a bit, will you show us some pics? God love your little bundle of joy!Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 17, 2008 3:51 PM
That's wonderful news! She's such a little bitty thing...How long must we wait for pictures????
Name? hair color? Eyes? C'mon...we need INFO!Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 3:52 PM
Come on... something is not right with that story. I mean, she would have had to reach all the way up her own vagina, through her cervix, felt around the baby, found the cord, pulled it out of herself, and cut it?
Stranger things have happened I guess, but come on...
Also, does La Shawn think making sarcastic, snide remarks about efforts to ban the confederate flag is going to garner ANY amount of support? To a great many people, that flag represents some horrible, very meaningful things - for many, dating back to the slavery of their ancestors. What does she think downplaying that is going to accomplish? Does she really think every other issue facing blacks should be ignored and ridiculed and abortion should be the ONLY focus? That's ridiculous, and its attitudes like that, that will perpetuate the fact that the majority of black Americans feeling alienated or ambivalent about the abortion issue.Posted by: Amanda at July 17, 2008 4:00 PM
You're questioning how pro-aborts do things to themselves?
Remember the ART student whe keeps on self-aborting?
And you support so-called CHOICE right?Posted by: RSD at July 17, 2008 4:40 PM
Lauren, Congratulations on your new baby! God bless you all!Posted by: Janet at July 17, 2008 4:47 PM
I think her boyfriend helped in her gruesome little endeavor. And Amanda, it might be harsh, but one of the best pieces of advice for non-whites who belong to races which suffered injustice at the hands of early american settlers
is GET THE HECK OVER IT. Was I robbed of a lot of the knowledge of the culture of my father's heritage? Yes...but that has very little to do with the life I lead now, and I refuse to let it, ever. even in a state that holds the headquarters of the KKK. Seriously. ____ them.
Instead, as La Shawn Barber reports, linking to a USA Today article, continuing opposition to the Confederate Flag is a much better use of time.
Amanda, She's in favor of a ban on the flag, not against it.Posted by: Janet at July 17, 2008 4:56 PM
And, I don't think Amanda is so much pro-choice as she is standing on the pro-choice side of the fence and leaning across it, just like I'm on the pro-life side leaning across. She deserves more positive treatment than she's given, and is just an opportunity that you all don't seem to want to take advantage of for the most part. All I can say is, it's a good thing I'm pretty thick-skinned most of the time, because I'm afraid a less willful individual would've been chased away by now.Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 5:01 PM
And congrats, lauren, on your new baby. :)Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 5:05 PM
Let's hear from some Southerners on the flag issue! I think it's hard for Northerners to understand the meaning of the Confederate flag. Many Southerners don't want to acknowledge that they lost the war, maybe it's a sense of pride for them. I can certainly see why blacks would be upset by the reminder of slavery and not want to see the flag. As a Northerner, I don't see the purpose of flying a flag that no longer represents what it did 200 years ago.
I suppose they could compromise and require that the U.S. flag must be flown whenever the Confederate flag is flown. Currently, if one wants to fly the flag of another country, it must be flown below the American flag out of respect. They could require the same with the Confederate flag.Posted by: Janet at July 17, 2008 5:08 PM
It's a very sad thing, but this woman should definitely be charged with killing her own baby, if she did cut the cord. If she did not want the child, she should have placed the baby up for adoption.
And to "xalisae", I believe you see the reality of abortion, that it is the killing another human being. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right (i.e. slavery and the holocaust). There have been several cases where a pregnant woman is killed and the killer is charged with double homicide. Why? Because they killed her unborn baby as well!
And about the confederate flag, I agree with the article because when we are killing innocent people at the most vulnerable state in their entire lives, what else really matters???? Honestly??
sb:5:28:It's a very sad thing, but this woman should definitely be charged with killing her own baby, if she did cut the cord. If she did not want the child, she should have placed the baby up for adoption.
I was expecting a different ending....many people would say "if she didn't want the child, she should have had an abortion". I must be getting cynical.Posted by: Janet at July 17, 2008 5:42 PM
"She deserves more positive treatment than she's given, and is just an opportunity that you all don't seem to want to take advantage of for the most part."
"All I can say is, it's a good thing I'm pretty thick-skinned most of the time, because I'm afraid a less willful individual would've been chased away by now."
what do you mean?Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 5:58 PM
I don't know...I get kind of discouraged when we get on the topics of contraception or stem cell research.Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 6:41 PM
That's understandable. But you know how you feel about people that are prochoice? Like if you could just get them to see it your way they would realize that you are right. You know you are. You know that abortion is wrong, and you know that these are good people. Now if you could only get these good people to see that abortion is wrong...
We feel the same way about contraception. We believe that we can see something that you can't. We want desperately to help you see it too. We know you're a good person, and we want you to see this through our eyes so that you too will "Get it", just like you want prochoicers to "get" abortion.
The Christians on this site, want the non Christians to understand God and how wonderful He is. The Catholics want the protestants to realize that they are missing out on the fullness of the truth.
Who's right? Who's wrong? Well some of us are right an some of us are wrong. But we really only want to give what we have to each other, so they too can have what we have...
Of course, if you ask me, you should ALL be prolife, anticontraception, and Catholic! lol.
Now we just have to make our cases.
It's like these pictures. I can see the "hidden" picture. Can you? I believe that I am seeing the "hidden" truth. Just like you do.Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 7:06 PM
Jasper, about the cord thing, I was thinking exactly the same thing! I just didn't want to say it first : /Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 7:13 PM
X, for your 4:49pm post, it's not that easy. A lot of white people (any group of people) are very racist, whether openly or not.
I had an RA last year who after seeing a picture of my then boyfriend said, "I don't like Asians" and went on to say, "they're sneaky little yellow people... all they can do is paint nails... they aren't really American."
I don't think we should just "get over it." I think we should stand up for ourselves, anyone who has been hurt by racism, and let people know it's not ok.Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 7:21 PM
Sorry I left y'all hanging!
Her name is Anna Elizabeth Pennington Pope
Unfortunately our digital camera is MIA so the only pictures we have are from the hospitals website.
To view them just go to http://www.our365.com/
Search for pictures by customer number which is 04582240013269
Then click on Lauren P
The password is baby and our last name is pope.
mk, what's the hidden picture? I'm seeing either fetuses or aliens. I don't think that's right though.Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 7:22 PM
Yay Lauren congratulations!
Give her a snorgle for me!Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 7:24 PM
Thank's Jess.Posted by: lauren at July 17, 2008 7:27 PM
Lauren, she's beautiful! Congratulations!Posted by: Alexandra at July 17, 2008 7:29 PM
Wow Lauren your baby is so tiny and so blonde!
Lol, when they had the "buy this baby portrait" button I read it as "buy this baby!"
Sweet : )Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 7:31 PM
mk:7:06: I give up. What's it a picture of ??Posted by: Janet at July 17, 2008 7:48 PM
I think it's got a heart in it. But I am awful at those magic eye things. My eyes always cross.Posted by: Alexandra at July 17, 2008 7:50 PM
I am going to crack my brother in the face w/ a 2x4 the next time I see him...I swear...Posted by: Rae at July 17, 2008 7:50 PM
Where'd that come from, Rae?Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 17, 2008 8:01 PM
@Bobby: I'm just really angry. He sent me a snuff video of a guy getting beheaded in the middle east somewhere. To prove a point that "waterboarding is too good for them towelheads".Posted by: Rae at July 17, 2008 8:08 PM
My sister never used to wear her seat belt, so I printed out a picture of a man who died in a horrible car accident when he didn't wear his seat belt and left it on her bed. She and my Mom freaked out on me and called me sick. A few years later she was driving without wearing her seat belt, got into a car crash and broke her windshield with her forehead. Except for the huge bruise on her face and the smashed windshield everything was fine. Now sometimes she wears her seat belt.
Well that's my story.Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 8:50 PM
See, I don't know why people let stuff like that bother them, Jess. I wasn't joking when I said I live in a state that houses the headquarters of the KKK, I do, and it's for a good reason. Being half mexican here isn't a good idea if you can't take racism in healthy doses. But my attitude when confronted with such ignorance has always been to just inform them politely of how ignorant they are, and pity them a great deal, because such a narrow world view tends to make them miss out on a lot, and I personally find such blatant stupidity almost laughable. I just want to pat them on the head and tell them how cute their little antiquated notions of race and general propriety are. And when all else fails, make out with my super-hot, super-hispanic-looking, also half-mexican husband and show off our 2 beautiful kids (one of whom looks very hispanic herself, and the other who is turning out to be quite pale and blonde). I guess stuff like that just doesn't get to me. I can't tell if it's because I'm more forgiving, or more spiteful. :PPosted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 9:29 PM
Janet and Alexandra,
You guys just proved my point. I can see it.
I want you to see it. I can't make you see it.
I can tell you the best way to see it, but in the end it will be up to you. It will mean that you look at it differently.
But there are some people that will never be able to see it.
We can explain til we are blue in the face to Doug that we KNOW there is a God. He will say "I just don't see it"...and we will never be able to prove to him that He's there. Just like we will never be able to prove that there is a hidden picture there. Doug might claim we are imagining it. He might even think that we're lying. And it won't matter how many people say they too can see God. He won't accept it. He won't just take our word for it.
But that doesn't change the fact that there IS a picture hidden in there, any more than it changes the fact that there IS a God.
If you put your nose right up to the screen and relax your eyes (your nose should touch the screen) and then slowly, so slowly, pull away from the screen (your eyes might even be a little crossed) all of a sudden it will just pop out at you. And then you'll wonder how it is that you couldn't see it before.
Which is our argument about abortion. And some of our arguments about contraception. And many of our arguments about God. It's there. You just aren't looking at it the right way.Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 9:32 PM
I don't know if I like the name Anna or Elizabeth better. Along with Rosie and Katherine, those are my favorite girls names.
She's absolutely perfect.Posted by: mk at July 17, 2008 9:36 PM
And I'm going to pass on that asian remark to my sister for a laugh. she's dating a Hmong right now and has sensibilities much like mine and would probably also find such a stupid attitude and remark amusing.Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 9:45 PM
Well, I'm sorry, but I think until you can pee on a strip and have it tell you "hey, there's someone else there now, for sure." or some other highly definitive technique for discerning such things, as long as those lives are being destroyed freely, worrying about anything else before that point is just splitting hairs. Let's stop what we know to be killing first, then we'll start shaving.Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 10:08 PM
"See, I don't know why people let stuff like that bother them, Jess. I wasn't joking when I said I live in a state that houses the headquarters of the KKK, I do, and it's for a good reason"
umm, I haven't heard of the KKK in a long time. But I know the rates for Hispanic on white and Black on white crime is far higher than the other way around. I know it's not polically correct but those are the facts.Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 10:14 PM
I remember when I was dating a Filipino guy and after showing my Grandma his picture she asked me, "Is he Chinese or Japanese?" I replied, "No, he's Swiss. Why?"
My old RA was a real loser. I'm not being mean I'm being serious. She was just an all around disgusting person. I don't think any person who is really happy with their life would be racist, except if it was taught, such as in the old south, jim crow and everything.
That reminds me of this kid at my high school who ate lunch with me and my friends (he was dating one of them). He used to always blame immigrants for "stealing our jobs." He was the only one to blame though. The only job he would consider is "rockstar."Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 10:21 PM
And that still doesn't change the fact that much of those statistics you cite is about individual upbringing, or the lack thereof which is currently prevalent in some cultures, and that makes it stupid to generalize about anyone. There are plenty of white meth cooks down here in the South who just aren't as easily caught because of how rural this area is, Jasper, so don't kid yourself. :)Posted by: xalisae at July 17, 2008 10:21 PM
Considering the way some white people act... I really, really wanted to punch my RA for what she said.
I'll go with xalisae "upbringing" for the win.Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 10:26 PM
You know that thing you said about meth, I don't think I've ever seen a non-white meth addict. I wonder if it's more prevalent among predominately white areas and why?Posted by: Jess at July 17, 2008 10:29 PM
Sorry X, I just deal with the facts. I know some people are uncomfortable with it.Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 10:34 PM
Lauren, little Anna is so adorable and teeny!! :D Congratulations!
Jess, now anyone can be a "rockstar"...and all they have to do is stay home and play with their Wii. (ROFL--sorry...just reading that again makes me laugh.)
Anyway--I am wondering like the rest of you how these people could've cut that cord if it wasn't prolapsed. That is just very odd. And sad. :(
mk 9:32--awesome, and so true. This is why I pray so often that God will open people's eyes to His truth.
You know, I have to say this, since it was mentioned earlier: I am not anti- birth control. But I worked in a Catholic store a number of years ago and one of the women there talked to me about being on the pill (hubby and I were married about two years at that time), and she encouraged me to do some research on it. After doing so, I decided that it just wasn't for me. I didn't have peace about being on it anymore. I also educated myself about NFP, and it just makes sense to me. That same woman educated me about home schooling and if not for this one very strong Catholic woman, I might still be on the pill and might never have homeschooled my children.
So, thank God for the free exchange of ideas, even when we don't see eye to eye! We may not have to do everything (or see everything) exactly alike, but I find that iron sharpens iron, and if not for those "confrontations" in my life, I might never have grown.
Just my two cents. (And it can't even buy you a stick of gum, but oh well.) :DPosted by: Kel at July 17, 2008 11:07 PM
Sorry X, I just deal with the facts. I know some people are uncomfortable with it.
Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 10:34 PM
You wouldn't 'know' a fact if it landed on your head. And yes, it is uncomfortable that some wish to pass off ignorance as comfort.Posted by: Sally at July 17, 2008 11:27 PM
Sally, LOL.... how many drinks did you have tonight?Posted by: Jasper at July 17, 2008 11:33 PM
I think the bigger question here is: What does all that have to do with racism or the KKK? Does the "fact" that hispanic/black on white crime rate being higher than vice versa matter in comparison to what the KKK stands for? Does that somehow justify their position or anyone's for being so stupid as to say/do things because they don't like the color of a person's skin? I don't think so, so your assertion that those facts have anything to do with racism makes it look like you justify that racist attitude.
I've been on plenty of white supremacist/KKK websites and they frequently report DAILY news stories of black/hispanics committing crimes against each other and crimes against whites. They use this as a sort of validation for their beliefs, as though those crimes are proof that black/hispanic people are BAD and white people are GOOD. It's not because of anyone's skin color that certain people commit crimes(other than hate crimes). It's due to a variety of factors, the main one being that many blacks/hispanics live in the poorer neighborhoods and become members of gangs at very young ages. They also are put in jail at very young ages as well so it becomes a cycle for them. I'm not saying this as a justification for actions, just giving the background. Nobody commits a crime because they're hispanic or black.Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 17, 2008 11:58 PM
Thanks for that info, MommaLiz, I had no idea that was a widespread justification of the attitudes of large collections of racists. Down here, it's mostly just "WHITE POWER" with no real reason...the poor white peoples' trailers are just as messed up as the few blacks' who live around here, and they all make comparable grades in school and/or have equally crappy jobs. It's really not a big deal to me if Jasper wants to whip out some unrelated "fact" which I suppose is going to justify some peoples' ridiculous and even downright stupid ideas about people who might happen to be a different color than him. I suppose I should thank him for bringing to my attention that I should be out stealing stuff from and assaulting white people. And Jess, most of the meth cooks and users down here are white, from what I've seen, which is far too much for my liking. There are some other crimes around here which end up getting identified primarily with white families, but as I've said before, I really don't think race has anything to do with it, and pointing fingers and laying blame at the feet of entire groups is stupid. I don't think Jasper cooks or does meth just because he's white, and most of the people who do and cook meth down here are white, and I'm sure that he doesn't think I steal hubcaps or something equally stupid just because I'm part hispanic.
Congratulations Lauren, your baby is beautiful!Posted by: truthseeker at July 18, 2008 2:38 AM
I can't believe I just put my face to the computer to see the hidden picture...and did what mk said. OK...I saw the heart. I also knocked over a full cup of coffee in the process, which soaked my checkbook and wallet and my bills.
And my cat looked at me with disdain and just walked away.....Posted by: Mike at July 18, 2008 2:49 AM
Mike, can you help me? I put my face up to it to and still couldn't see anything. Well I thought I saw three babies but they were kinda strange looking. What are we looking for?Posted by: Jess at July 18, 2008 7:14 AM
Oh, sorry its supposed to be a heart. I still don't see it.Posted by: Jess at July 18, 2008 7:15 AM
Get your face about 6 inches away from the picture. Raise your chin up just a little bit, and try and stare at your own nose. Once you have your eyes focused on your nose, without moving your eyes, change the focus of your eyes from your nose to the picture. It should hurt your eyes a little bit, lol.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 18, 2008 7:21 AM
I will take your word for it that there is a heart. :)Posted by: Carla at July 18, 2008 7:48 AM
wow! That is awesome. A 3-d heart that stands out from the background!
My old stereoscopic skills are still there! Use to read alot of aerial photo's this way!
Carla: the best way to do this is to do exactly what mk said.
Go up to the screen with your nose almost touching and then slowly withdraw (move away) from the screen while pointing both eyes at your nose.
I use to do this when looking at aerial photos in the field. It works and you don;t have to carry those stupid glasses around.
Good girl! Sometimes, you just have to trust, even without proof.Posted by: mk at July 18, 2008 8:05 AM
Lol.Posted by: mk at July 18, 2008 8:06 AM
Can only prolifers see the heart? Prochoicers?? Is this a test??
Now I have a headache!!Posted by: Carla at July 18, 2008 8:52 AM
Carla: be comforted!
Many people have a difficult time seeing stereoscopic pictures and pics like MK's.
You don't need to see the heart -you have such a big heart anyway, m'dear!!
Lets see if my kids can do it? whahahaha!
Thanks Patricia!! haPosted by: Carla at July 18, 2008 9:07 AM
No, it's not a test. It was just an illustration to show that some people need to see to believe, some believe on faith, some see and believe...
And that by presenting our different cases for/against birth control, abortion, ESR, etc., we are trying to get the "other side" to see something from a different point of view...hoping that they will see what may not be so obvious at first glance...the "hidden" picture.
One of the tricks to seeing it is not to try too hard. Put your nose to the screen, let your eyes cross, pull back slowly, let your eyes UNcross gradually, and try to look "behind" or "through" the roses...just let it happen.
Just like God. Sometimes, the harder you look, the less you are able to see. But if you just let Him happen, voila!Posted by: mk at July 18, 2008 9:18 AM
You have to cross your eyes to look for God? What?
I hated those Magic Eye things cause I could never see them. Still can't..I really hope finding God isn't like THAT. I'd be pretty screwed.
Hmm...I've never used MK's preferred technique to see one of those magic eye pictures.
I simply unfocus my eyes and stare at the image until I see a shape begin to emerge and then I refocus them. It works every time.Posted by: A. at July 18, 2008 10:42 AM
Using hidden pictures and such to illustrate is all well and good, but how do you know that you are right?Posted by: A. at July 18, 2008 10:58 AM
You have to cross your eyes to look for God? What?
I hated those Magic Eye things cause I could never see them. Still can't..I really hope finding God isn't like THAT. I'd be pretty screwed.
It's a hidden picture of a Muslim woman frisking a nun. ; )
I once picked up a book of those at a yard sale. The cherubs and I spend a very frustrating day...:)
Very clever, Bee. Nice allusion.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 18, 2008 11:17 AM
LOL-I had to get my nose VERY close and then pull away AND cross my eyes to see the heart.
Does that mean I'm hard-headed or something? :D
Wonder what Freud would say...Posted by: Kel at July 18, 2008 1:31 PM
Is it really a heart? I assumed I was wrong.Posted by: Alexandra at July 18, 2008 1:42 PM
MK: We can explain til we are blue in the face to Doug that we KNOW there is a God. He will say "I just don't see it"...and we will never be able to prove to him that He's there. Just like we will never be able to prove that there is a hidden picture there. Doug might claim we are imagining it. He might even think that we're lying. And it won't matter how many people say they too can see God. He won't accept it. He won't just take our word for it.
MK, I like those hidden image things, and there are any number of beliefs that people may have. I certainly acknowledge that people have them. I don't think you're lying; not at all.
Your beliefs do not trump the belief of a pregnant woman that ending the pregnancy is the best thing, though.Posted by: Doug at July 18, 2008 1:47 PM
Posted by: Doug at July 18, 2008 1:56 PM
Bee:11:10: It's a hidden picture of a Muslim woman frisking a nun. ; )
Hi Bee! haha!
I think Doug is behind a blanket in this picture, but it might just be my imagination. (??) ;o)Posted by: Janet at July 18, 2008 4:38 PM
Janet, we're going out beyond Jupiter, there.
As for me, if there's a blanket involved, I'm wrapping it around MK.... hee hee hee.
Hi, Janet!Posted by: Bee at July 18, 2008 6:18 PM
It'll take more than a blanket to get rid of me...
or were you calling me a wet blanket...
Oh, I know, it was in reference to how hot you think I am...
Saturn.Posted by: mk at July 18, 2008 6:23 PM
I still believe Pluto is a planet.Posted by: Rae at July 18, 2008 7:06 PM
Rae, you are so right.
THEY DID PLUTO WRONG!!!!Posted by: Doug at July 18, 2008 10:20 PM
Test.Posted by: Doug at August 28, 2008 10:31 PM