Holy guacamole. "Pregnant man" is just nuts. Okay, she's a woman who's had some surgery...

You know what this means, of course...

This renders invalid all the pro-abort blather about "it's a *woman's* body, a woman's choice", and *men* don't get pregnant, so they shouldn't have any control over pregnancy/contraception/abortion. They have to give up these "arguments" or admit that they don't don't really accept that Thomas is a man.

I don't accept that Thomas is a man. If "he" were then "he" wouldn't be pregnant.

This is crazy. And this baby wasn't created the *ahem* NATURAL *ahem* way, which makes it really sad.

Bottom line for me is here is a couple who clearly want to have babies, are able to support a family, and will most likely make great parents. That's a beautiful thing.

Unfortunately Virginia, that is not the bottom line. That is not a stable situation for a child: to have a mother and then a woman who wants to 'kind of be a man' as a father.

http://www.rallycongress.com/constitutional-qualification/1244/
NEARING 100,000 SIGNATURES!!!!!
SIGN IT AND SPREAD FAR AND WIDE!!!
http://americamustknow.com/lawsuits.aspx
4 Major Lawsuits are still pending demanding Obama turn of his Birth Certificate
SPREAD IT FAR AND WIDE!!!

As long as they explain to the child what is going on with them, I don't think it makes a difference. As long as they're loving, responsible parents.. lots of kids grow up in "different" situations and they turn out perfectly normal..
Now, if they're not loving, responsible parents, I think that changes things.

what does "Irish Twins" mean anyway? Is this some sort of term that refers to kids born a year apart?

Someone in my class wrote a piece about sex and at one point said something about "Christians" being prudes who don't want people to have sex. I made the point, "They don't get all those kids by praying."

On topic, I think if he wanted to have children maybe he should have stayed a woman? Like if you want to be a man, you should except everything that goes with it. Same as being a woman.

I did get a little ticked when my gay friend said he wanted to have a period. "Cramps and all?" I asked. "Oh of course I would like to experience that" he replied. The first time I had cramps I threw up the pain was so bad. But oh well when you're a woman that stuff can happen.

Liz it means babies who aren't twins but are born close together, like right after you have a baby, you get pregnant again. It plays into the stereotype that Irish people have many children. Jill is prejudice. Or she would be if it weren't so true : ( Trust me we multiple like hamsters.

Jess,
try 800 mg of ibuprofen.

...take it with food!

This is what happens because of sin in the world. men lay with men, women lay with women, women have babies but want to be men, men dress up as women but want to have sex with men.

All of this is sexual immorality according to the Word of God which I believe is the infallable word of God.

Just as pride, gossip, adultery, fornication, lying, coveting and a host of other things is SIN so is sexual immorality.

This nation/world is in trouble and I'm sure it's easy to justify things by saying, "people love each other" and so on but it's not our call it's GOD's and He's made it clear in His word that these things are unacceptable. Look at what happened in the Word to people who lived like this. Now look at our world/nation and see what is happening because people have turned from GOD.

Whether anyone agrees or not it's not a rejection against me but against GOD's word so I pray that we all turn ourselves toward Him and repent for our sins and begin to live according to His Word. We are a hurting, dying world. GOD HELP US.

one can only wonder when this will ever end...
I can't imagine trying to explain this sad situation to these children.

Eileen #2 I would take so many different pain pills, I tried them all and I would take like 6 every few hours and it wouldn't really help. Now that I started the pill I've been almost pain free. Well I still have pain, but it's bearable, it doesn't keep me bed-ridden.

I know some people here have views on the pill but I'm not having sex, so I'm not having mini-abortions. I've been doing this thing I invented called abstinence. So far guys have told me they respect me and it's good that I have standards but I'm still single : ( Well at least I didn't put out only to get dumped later : /

If you think that's hard Patricia try explaining a period. When I found out what it was I cried for a week. I still remember that, it was traumatic.

Hey, cool Jess! Good for you. I'm not abstinent, nor do I have any desire to be, but if that's what works for you, that's wonderful.

And I hear you about the pain-related benefits of the pill. Before I went on it I had cramps so bad I swear I could feel the shape of my reproductive system. I think if your gay friend got his wish, he'd rethink it reeeeeeeal fast.

this is so twisted it's almost BEYOND belief.
sad and twisted.....
And I dearly wish the media would be at least honest about this and not call this person a man- she has female DNA and she has female body parts
IMO, at best, she LOOKS like a effeminate man

So this is basically a lesbian couple in reality with the male imitation portion actually mutilating her body to make her confused psyche more real. Sad.

Hey, good for you, Jess. I don't recommend the pill though, I was prescribed the pill to treat my endometriosis and I took it at the time (I was unmarried and not sexually active either) but it did not help my condition, made my migraines worse and then I found out that it put me at higher risk for breast cancer.
Hang in there -- you will find a good guy -- don't lower your standards just to have a boyfriend. I will tell you firsthand -- it is worth the wait.

Well Leah, I'm only abstinent with other ; ) The thing is my Mom only slept with three men in her life, and I've slept with two, so I want to wait for the third to be my husband.

If you think that's hard Patricia try explaining a period. When I found out what it was I cried for a week. I still remember that, it was traumatic.

Posted by: Jess at November 13, 2008 8:24 PM

say what?

Lisa -- sadly, you are so right. Our corrupted culture seems to be reaping what it has sown. It is reflected in the results of this election. You are right -- we need to pray more and do more penance.

Oh man, Jess! I totally have you beat! :) I've only slept with two guys in my life and I'm marrying the second.

Patricia, for a younger kid, learning that for the rest of your life you are doomed to bleed non-stop for 3-7 days a month from your privates...can be pretty freaky.

At least, I assume that's what you're talking about, ya, Jess?

Yeah my cousin, the one with down syndrome, told me what a period was. Well the way she explained it was *really* scary. But it didn't help that my other cousins joined in and started telling me horror stories about girls who got theirs in school.

My mom explained things before it happened so it wasn't a shock to me when it happened.

Do more penance? I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous to me! God doesn't want us to suffer! We are His children! I will never understand such belief. I will never understand belief that prescribes suffering to please God.

Well Eileen it was probably better then, "You bleed when ever you go to the bathroom for the rest of your life!"

You are right -- God doesn't want us to suffer but it happens. Sometimes as a result of our own sins, sometimes as a result of someone sinning against us and sometimes simply because we live in an imperfect world. But it becomes redemptive when we offer it with love in union with Jesus and His suffering. That is the mystery -- that suffering which is so repugnant can bring about so much good.

Leah,

"Do more penance? I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous to me! God doesn't want us to suffer! We are His children! I will never understand such belief. I will never understand belief that prescribes suffering to please God."

Some verses to contemplate:

Col 1:24-Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

Rom 8:17-And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Phil 1:29-For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

2 Tim 1:8-So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God

There are lots more. I also recommend the Pope's letter SALVIFICI DOLORIS, on the meaning of Human Suffering http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html . Suffering brings us closer to Christ because we imitate him when we offer our sufferings up. God love you.

Isn't the point that Jesus suffered so we didn't have to?

:):):):)

God love you too, Bobby!

". Suffering brings us closer to Christ because we imitate him when we offer our sufferings up."

beautiful.

Hey also [OFF TOPIC], if anyone is interested, tomorrow is my daughter's first birthday and we made a little music video of her for her birthday. It's on youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5iB8OamV3Y

Oh wow Bobby! Another twenty years and she can legally drink! They grow up so fast don't they?

What are you getting her for her birthday? Are you buying her a bird?

Oh my goodness, Bobby, Gianna is already a year old? Congratulations, and Happy Birthday to her!

[This renders invalid all the pro-abort blather about "it's a *woman's* body, a woman's choice", and *men* don't get pregnant, so they shouldn't have any control over pregnancy/contraception/abortion. They have to give up these "arguments" or admit that they don't don't really accept that Thomas is a man.]

Pro-Choicers know that "he's" not really a man.

Don't you?

I know! Nuts, isn't it? We got her some books and a lion that she can ride and push and it plays music when you push its nose... that's sort of like a bird, ehh Jess?

Bobby,
What a beautiful video. It's a shame you didn't have more footage to work with. :) Happy Birthday Gianna!

Happy Birthday, Gianna!

That was just darling :D

Lisa:

Keep posting.

Most will not listen though.

Happy Birthday Gianna, what a cute little bambino!

Nice video Bobby.

By Chuck Norris

Dear President-elect Obama:

First, congratulations on your victory. The historical magnitude of your presidential win is nothing short of stupendous and a colossal fulfillment of the American dream (an achievement embedded long ago in the equality clauses of the Declaration of Independence). Your life has served and will serve as an example to countless millions, and I pray that you will live up to that honorable position and responsibility.

Now that Democrats have a virtual monopoly over our land, with control of the White House, both houses of Congress, a majority of gubernatorial positions, state legislatures, the courts, the news media, the unions and the entertainment and educational fields, it would be relatively easy for you to rule as king, casting liberal edicts in any direction. But now will come your biggest test: Will you be able to lead the other half of the country that doesn't agree with your vision, views and policies?

It's no big surprise that I don't see politically eye-to-eye with you. Actually, I stand in stark opposition to most of your politics. Still, even in our differences, I realize that we must learn to work together if we are to see our country get back on track. After Election Day, I asked myself, despite the outcome, how can I work for our new president to help better America? Then the thought occurred to me, the first question that should be answered is: How will you work for me? After all, it is "We, the People" of the Constitution for whom you are employed, correct?

So I outlined a few ways you might begin to gain the respect of those who oppose you and show that your campaign pledges to bridge the divides were not empty promises to get you into office. And these requests I make are based upon the inaugural oath you will make on Jan. 20, "I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." No doubt these won't be my only suggestions through the years, but they serve as a good beginning:

1. Use and cite the Constitution. If that constitutional oath ("preserve, protect and defend") is the central duty of your job description, then I would assume we will be hearing often from you about exactly how you are doing just that. There is no replacement for strict adherence, application and defense of the Constitution. And it's high time that presidents quit tritely reciting the presidential oath only to abandon its tenets when they enter the Oval Office. You should be publicly quoting from the Constitution as often as a preacher quotes the Bible to his congregation – at least weekly. If you take this oath and challenge seriously, you will limit the powers of federal government, reduce taxes (for everyone), encourage the freedom of religion and expression (even in the public square) and stand up for such things as our right to bear arms. The American public and the government has lost its grip on the content and role of the Constitution, and, if you daily choose, you can help to reeducate and model its usage for them.

2. Protect American life. Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1809, "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government." Those are powerful and enlightening words – "first and only legitimate object of good government." Of course, such a role was created and secured in the very fabric of our nation – in the Declaration of Independence. The commitment to protect life should serve as a basis to all you do, even as a foundation for your national defense strategy or to protect human life from the womb to the grave. I'm sure the first of your secret briefings this last week on our global security threats have opened your eyes some to the extensive onslaught of our enemies. Don't allow your pride, partisanship, personal bias or political abilities to ever jeopardize the safety of Americans lives. As commander in chief, you are called to preserve American life. Quite frankly, that is why I'm surprised that a man like you, who professes to fight for minorities, would not recognize the clear value of a human life in the womb. Federal law should not edict the sacrifice of one human life for the preference of another. Both lives should be protected. Otherwise what do Jefferson's 1809 words mean? As president, you are called to protect (not destroy) human life – it is the "first and only legitimate object of good government.

3. Learn from the mistakes of your Democratic predecessors. I'm referring specifically to presidents Carter and Clinton. Despite how many trumpet their accomplishments today, they learned big lessons at our expense about international diplomacy and economic recovery. Carter's diplomatic naïveté, combined with his overly altruistic belief that America's enemies can be won by a smile and handshake, ultimately gave rise to Ahmadinejad's Iranian regime. Furthermore, Carter's handling of our economic affairs also led to the highest interest, inflation and unemployment rates in history. You were only a young man, I realize, but I respectfully wonder if you know of those lessons, or might be doomed to repeat them? You can increase the taxes of individuals who make more than $200,000. You can impose the same on companies and corporations. But don't believe for a minute that they aren't even now making plans and moving their monies into overseas accounts. Any businessman knows that such tax increases will trickle down to employees, shareholders, consumers or further tempt them to take their productivity abroad where costs are lower. And what will be the effect on our economy? Isn't it obvious? And don't forget this: Bush is only partially to blame for our economic woes. Remember, it was the Clinton administration in 1999 that was the primary contributor to our Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae subprime fiasco (and subsequent Wall Street bailout need), by extending billions of mortgage loans to those who wouldn't or couldn't ever pay them back. Though gloating over his end-term budget surplus, Clinton paved the path through his government backing of millions of toxic mortgages to low income households – all of which would turn into gargantuan balloon payments years down the road that would bankrupt corporations and lead to our economic recession.

4. Lead more from the center. It's been pointed out by countless pundits. Your track record is clear. You have one of the most liberal records in the Senate. You've had the liberty of voting and fighting for an agenda "from the left," as you've tried to persuade state and congressional constituents to do the same. But if you continue to lead our country down a more liberal road, you will follow the peril of Clinton as well. He stepped into office and initially tried to lift the ban on gays in the military and extend abortion rights, only to prompt the creation of a more-balanced and strong Republican Congress in the 1990s. Don't underestimate the resurrecting power of the conservative voice. You observed in Tuesday's election how three states across this union voted to protect marriage in their constitutions (the 28th, 29th and 30th states to do so – California, Arizona and Florida). We will be watching how you lead Pelosi and Reid. We will be observing those you select as candidates for Supreme Court justices. The election is over. No more promises. No more words. You might work well in a team, but this time you don't have congressional members to hide behind. You're on your own – leading the pack – and the whole country is watching. Especially me. So make sure you lead more from the center.

There is one thing I will be specifically doing for you, as you carry the weight to lead our nation. I will be praying for you. As the scripture says,
"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone – for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." You have my word – I'll be praying.

One of your 300 million bosses,

I have a strange request! I just talked to my grandma and my grandpa wants me to sing "I Was There to Hear Your Borning Cry" at his funeral, which will probably be in the next couple of months. Problem is, I've never even heard the song before. Does anyone here perhaps have it on their computer that could send it to me as an mp3?

Gianna is adorable!

Gianna for President in 36 years!

Eileen, did you see the video I posted on the other thread about hormones??

I'll post it again. It's hilarious.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/210357/november-12-2008/cheating-death---women-s-health

And Jess, OMG I actually did cry.

I read in a girl scout manual that a girl bleeds from 7-10 days. And I thought it was a typo. I thought they meant 7-10 hours.
Then mom told me that it happens for your whole adult life, and it is 7-10 days. To me that sounded horrific!

I got over it a bit quickly though. After pouting for a while I was in church and I thought, all of the women standing in front of me have periods. I guess if they can live with it, so can I.

HisMan, Thomas Jefferson had some interesting things to say:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

_____

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

___

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

___

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

____

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

____

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

____

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

____

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

___

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

___

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

___

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

___

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Jess,

This is really none of my business, but it sounds like you have some especially terrible period pains. Have you ever considered that you may have endometriosis ?

Its a really common problem women have. Basically uterine lining starts to grow on the outside of the uterus. This can cause a lot of problems, one of which is intense menstrual cramps. In fact, Wikipedia described them as "disabling."

There are a lot of ways to combat the problem. The easiest is to change your diet. The best is to get pregnant ;)

Anyways, you may want to look it up.

Doug

Thomas Jeferson also concluded that Africans were physically and mentally inferior to Caucasions. This was something that he asserted through reasoning and science. Im sure we can all agree that he was completely flawed in those assertions. This doesnt necessitate that he is flawed in his reasonings about the Bible, but it does help to remind us that Thomas Jefferson was a man, like any other man. If he doubted Christianity, good for him. So have millions of other people.

Bobby,

Although I definitely do not share your, or many other poster's, belief in Catholocism, I do find it funny how everyone assumes that because God is good and correct that no "bad" things can happen. When will people understand that if there is an incorruptable God, that if we find something to be "moral" and yet also contradictory to God, we have to discard the notion that the conflicting action is moral. God wins, always. I love how people try to proove God does not exist because there are bad things.

There are bad things.
God is perfectly good.
Obviously God cannot exist.

Maybe "obviously" those bad things are allowed by God, and he is still good proved by some unknown logic? Maybe, God exceeds or subverts the entire idea of logic. Would you think that all parallel universes exhibit the same physics? Maybe there are no universal laws of physics....maybe there are no truly universal laws of logic either. If we take the notion to be true that God is good and always good, then there can be no contradiction to Him to disprove his existance.

Doug:

Perhaps then you should pray to the dead Thomas Jefferson since you appear to put so much faith in the words of a dead man.

I, however, will continue to pray to and trust in the Resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords and King of Kings who sits at the right hand of the Father.

Christ Himself was crucified between two criminals, one chose life and the other chose death. Yes Doug, we must all weigh the evidence and choose; life or death, God or Satan, heaven or hell.

As Jesus asked Peter, "who do you day that I am". The answer to that question determines our eternal destiny.

As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

This story about the pregnant "man" and his "wife" is about as twisted as it gets.

Not surprising its Barbara Walters doing the interview, about as far left as she can get.

God did not intend men to have babies, although this person is obviously not a real "man" but the media describes "him" as so.

This couple are media addicts who undoubtedly have made a fortune publizing their immoral relationship.

I am sorry Erin. I do not know of the song. I am sorry nobody answered you either! :)

OH MY I love that little Gianna!

Jess: it wasn't such a big deal. And 10 days was the norm when I was a teen. I still managed to figure skate, cross-country ski and cycle. Of course one way to help is to get married and have more than a few children. After I had my kids my body changed for the better. I'm thinking that maybe God had a reason for designing our bodies to have babies.. just a thought.

Erin

You probably already know this, but you can download it on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Hear-Your-Borning/dp/B0013P908Y for 99 cents.

The author of confusion has his pencil out. So confusion is part of the agenda. (by the way, more than one lady has a mustache)

Liz, 8:04p: "Irish twins" is a figure of speech for children born in the same family less than a year apart.

Bobby, congrats! This year flew!

Jess: it wasn't such a big deal. And 10 days was the norm when I was a teen. I still managed to figure skate, cross-country ski and cycle.

Well, yeah, it doesn't actually turn out to be the end of the world, but to an 8-year old girl it's often a pretty freaky bit of information to learn. I remember my sister told me and I assumed she must have been lying or stretching the truth. I asked my mom and my mom was like, "Yeah, that's basically all true," and I was just stunned. I didn't get my period until I was 17 and I think I secretly held out hope that it would never come. (I was probably the only girl in the history of the world who was old enough to drive myself to the store for that infamous first box of feminine hygiene products!) It wasn't until I already had it that I finally became really comfortable with the idea that it wasn't some horrifying thing.

Of course now I have the easiest "symptoms" of any woman I know, and I hardly notice or think about it. Actually, since I started using a menstrual cup I sometimes enjoy having my period! But the first day I realized, "Yeah, you're going to bleed for a week every month, from a part of your body that you probably least want to bleed from," -- that was kind of a shock. I mean if someone came up to me today and said, "You may not know this, but part of turning 26 is that you bleed from your butt for a week straight every month," it'd take a bit of time for me to be okay with that. I would definitely dread my upcoming birthday. ;)

I mean really, in basically all other situations, blood is a sign that something is wrong, that someone needs help, that someone is hurt, that something needs to be done. I don't think it's all that unreasonable for young girls to have some difficulty overcoming that innate reaction to the idea of bleeding, to overcome their instinctive connection of bleeding to pain, and of bleeding to "being broken." Heck, I know some adult men who, while they are intellectually fine with the biological facts of menstruation, get uncomfortable at the actual reality of it -- one once explained to me that he always instinctively wants to do something to stop his wife from bleeding even though he knows logically that that's absurd.

Oliver @ 1;26,
Thanks for your observations!

Doug @ 1:02,

Just a thought. While your quotes from the letters of Thomas Jefferson are interesting, remember, they were private letters - not meant for the public eye. Do historians know if these were long-held opinions of Jefferson or simply observations by him at certain points in his life? Personally, I have voiced opinions in the past which I do not hold today.

I like this one:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Janet, notice how these quotes span about 40 years. Remember also, Jefferson created his own "bible" by cutting out nonsense of the miricles and virgin birth. (his view).

Interesting that Jefferson acknowledges a "Creator" in the D of I.

Jefferson very clearly believed in God. No doubt about that.

Hal @ 10:59,

I like this one:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I don't understand this quote.

Jess, leah, others my general age-
Have you noticed that *every* young woman on this board has extraordinaryally painful periods?

This is NOT normal. I, too, experience very painful periods due to endometriosis. I'm hoping that my second baby may have helped that somewhat (it tends to) but I haven't gotten the,er, opportunity to test out that theory.

Anyways, there's no real way to measure if pain levels are increasing over time because it's an individual interpretation, but it just seems like a lot of older women I know had managable periods, but younger women seem to have very, very painful and heavy periods. I wonder if our environmental exposures are in anyway affecting this.

Also, I know Patricia has mentioned this before, but NaPro technology is supposed to be very good for painful periods as well as the infertility that often accompanies painful periods.

Hal,

OK, the quote makes more sense to me in context. If you are interested, here is the complete letter Jefferson wrote to his nephew, Peter Carr:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_carr.html

Janet, I interpret it to mean that you should question God's existence, because if God exists then He would prefer you to logically think about whether or not you follow Him than just to avoid thinking about it because you're uncomfortable questioning or doubting. I mean, if you're scared to question God's existence, what are you scared of? Are you scared that you might discover that He does not, in fact, exist? And if so, then doesn't fear of questioning indicate a lack of faith? Whereas questioning, doubting, and examining the existence of God will -- assuming He exists -- only further solidify your faith, so willingness to question is a sign of faith. Doubt can, in a roundabout way, demonstrate a belief that there IS a man behind the curtain, while blind following can demonstrate a lack of belief.

Lauren, I'm 25 and I have extraordinarily un-painful periods. :)

Lauren,

Perhaps this has been mentioned, stress can play a factor in painful periods. Reducing stress, eating well, drinking plenty of water, adequate sleep, and moderate exercise can all help in relieving symptoms. Dehydration can also make cramps worse.

She belongs in a circus as the bearded lady.

Janet, yes for typical cramps they can and I do appreciate the advice, however with condiditons such as endometriosis, the only thing that ever made a dent was vicoden.

I've also heard good things about NaPro tech. Like I said, we can't really measure someone elses pain.

However, for me, my monthly cramps were worse than the recovery from any surgery I've ever had, including two c-sections, a bone tumor removal, and two oral surgeries. The only thing that came close was the recovery after my wisdom teeth were removed and I was swallowing blood and throwing up every 5 minutes. I also had other "lovely" symptoms surrounding my period that I won't discuss here, but that were typical of endometriosis.

I also have reproductive problems that have resulted in in my son being born prematurely as well as miscarriages and prolonged periods between pregnancies.

It just seems so strange to me that I hear this type of thing so often. These are NOT normal symptoms, and I'd really like to know why my generation seems so affected by these issues.

Perhaps then you should pray to the dead Thomas Jefferson since you appear to put so much faith in the words of a dead man.

HisMan, I'm just saying that certain people who quote Jefferson should be aware that he didn't fall for the "party line" most of the time. He certainly wasn't one for blind belief.

Lauren @ 1:18,

I just thought I'd throw that out there in case it helped anyone. I'm so sorry to hear of your pain and that of others here. I guess I was just fortunate not to have had to endure that. If it's any consolation, the day does eventually come when it's all over! I hope they figure out the cause someday.

While your quotes from the letters of Thomas Jefferson are interesting, remember, they were private letters - not meant for the public eye. Do historians know if these were long-held opinions of Jefferson or simply observations by him at certain points in his life? Personally, I have voiced opinions in the past which I do not hold today.

Janet, good question. There are many more quotes from him in that vein, and they cover a lot of years - 1782 to 1826 (in the last letter he wrote before his death).

So, from before he was 40 to when he died... (which by the way was on July 4).

Oh, I definitely appreciate the sentiment, Janet!

I'm really hoping that having Anna healed the damage. It does generally help because you aren't contributing to the problem every month. We'll see.

Mine actually got worse after I started taking the Progesterone only pill (didn't know about it's abortificiant properties) after my son was born. When I went off I went from have "terrible" periods to "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CAN NOT MOVE" periods. It was horrible because I didn't think it could get any worse, and when it did I was caught off gaurd.

Lol Oliver what should I change my diet to? Should I start eating more fast food? And get pregnant, sure I guess I should have found some random man and had sex at 10 years old (when my period started). I mean having children is the best thing a woman could ever do right? Yeah, and here I am wasting my time in college, learning, what a waste for a woman right?

Jess, actually it tends to help to cut gluten out of your diet. For some reason not entirely understood, gluten can exasserbate the problem. Also (and this doesn't really go for you since you don't eat meat period) cutting red meat out also tends to help.

Something that might help you alot is to cut out soy products. Since soy is an estrogen like substance it tends to make endometriosis worse.

Oliver knows these things because he's my husband and he's seen me writhing in pain and/or sobbing because my cycle was too erratic for me to maintain a pregnancy.

Oliver's not saying that you should run out and get pregnant, just that pregnancy often does help with endometriosis because it enduces a state of temporary ammenonorah.

http://www.endometriosis.org/nutrition.html

Here's a link that discusses how nutrition can help. It seems that wheat and wheat gluten act as estrogens which is what causes them to worsen endometriosis symptoms. I'd definitely look into it. I credit my gluten free/dairy free diet for allowing me to eventually have a cycle regular enough to allow me to get and stay pregnant. I know that pregnancy isn't the goal for you, but a regular, less painful cycle definitely is, and this should help in that regard.

Well I don't eat soy Lauren, and I don't eat any more grains then is recommended so I think going on the pill was best.

And many people seem to say getting pregnant alleviates cramps but really, would you want a ten year old to have to get married and start having babies? I didn't actually start the pill until I was 16, but the main reason I started it was so that I could actually live my life to the fullest, without being hindered by the cramps. I don't think I could live my life to the fullest if I began having kids at 16 until reach menopause (probably around 60 considering my female relatives). Think of it, if I started having children when I began my period and didn't stop till menopause I would have 50 years of fertilely. If I breast fed my children until they could eat solid foods which would be about a year, I would have a child about every two years. I would have about 25 children. How do you think that would work out for me?

Jess, You are too much. Did you actually read Lauren and Oliver's full responses? They don't want you to go out and get pregnant.
That's a whole 'nother set of problems for you!

Alexandra,

Thank you for your thoughts! One day I'll take the time to read David McCullough's biography of Thomas Jefferson, then I'll be able to discuss TJ a little more intelligently!

Erin,

I Was There to Hear Your Borning Cry is available here at Amazon for 99 cents. It also plays at this site for free when you land on it. If you stick the title in Google along with the term "mp3" you might come across a free download, at least in midi format.

Lauren,

I've read articles that have proposed environmental factors since girls now are getting periods much sooner and fertility and women problems are more frequent. Some say that simple things like plastic bottles may have estrogen-like components which can make girls start periods sooner and have complications. The rise in processed food in general also is being investigated. It is quite a hot topic in some circles.

What about the cup makes your period enjoyable Alexandra?

Although I don't have a period on the shot, it also gives the side effect of acne and I don't know if I wanna deal with it anymore. So 2 things in consideration is if I do want to deal with periods again, and also if I want to mess with my medication levels again.

Jess, it's not a matter of eating more grains than recommended, it's a matter of eating them at all. It's also not all grains, just wheat.

You seem to be approaching this all with a "gotcha!" mentality. I'm not trying to condemn you, I'm trying to tell you that there are things other than the pill that can help you. Should you want to get pregnant at some point in your life, you will have to have periods and I'm assuming that you would probably like them to not be worse than you remember. I'm trying to give you information that can prevent that.

ALso, you're wildly missing the point of why we aer mentioning that pregnancy does help endometriosis. We aren't saying "run out and get pregnant to cure your cramps" we're just saying "when and if you do get pregnant, your cramps should get better so you might not have to be in pain or on pills your entire life". You're mixing the message of treatment and cure.

However, you don't seem to want to try anything other than your current path. We've recommended other medical interventions and you just plug your ears. Again, I'm going to mention NaPro tech. With NaPro tech you take only the homornal support you need to reallign you cycles, but do not stop ovulation.

Regardless of how you feel about the morality of contraception, it is simply not healthy for a woman to be on contraception for, as you say, 30 years. In fact, risks of complications raise dramatically after 5 years of use or after the age 35. Why start you clock now, so to speak, when there are other therapies that may give you relief without the side effects?

Look, I know pain. I was also prescribed birth control to "cure" my pain. The problem was that it didn't "cure" anything. It just put a bandaid on the problem that hemoraged when it was torn off.

Pip, I've used the disposable cups, never the reusable kind, but ultimately, I always switch back to the old standbys.

The cups are great for reducing how much you really notice your period, but changing them is just too much of a hassle for me. There's a bit of a learning curve, and honestly I just never really found it to be worth it. But, I'd try them to see how you like them. You might decide they're for you.

The disposable kind are called "Instead" and they're kind of like a diaphram.

The reusable kind are called the "Diva Cup" and they look more like a funnel. They appear to actually be quite different in the way they are inserted and removed, so you might find that one really suits your needs well.

(and now I think I've officially scared off any men who might possibly be reading this thread!)

Look, I know pain. I was also prescribed birth control to "cure" my pain. The problem was that it didn't "cure" anything. It just put a bandaid on the problem that hemoraged when it was torn off.
Posted by: Lauren at November 14, 2008 7:30 PM

Lauren,
I had the very same experience in regard to my endometriosis. All too often the pill is prescribed for any female complaint. Why don't doctors research a cure for these things instead of just treating symptoms?

Oh well thank you Lauren : ) And now that I have my "hamster pants" shirt on I'm going to go have some fun! See you guys later!

Lauren: (and now I think I've officially scared off any men who might possibly be reading this thread!)

Yikes...seconded.

Jess :"Lol Oliver what should I change my diet to? Should I start eating more fast food?"

Whats your problem, seriously? I tried to give you some advice to possibly help your problem. Why do you respond with "laughing out loud" as if what I suggested was made up or ridiculous? Why would I want you to eat fast food? Most fast foods contain products that would make your problem worse. I dont get it.

Jess: "And get pregnant, sure I guess I should have found some random man and had sex at 10 years old (when my period started). I mean having children is the best thing a woman could ever do right? Yeah, and here I am wasting my time in college, learning, what a waste for a woman right? "

You are a very close minded person Jess. Do you think about the rudeness of your sweeping generalizations? Ive witnessed you insult people without degrees. Ive seen you insult people who attend community college, and now here you are insulting the women who chose to have children as "unlearned." I ask again, what is wrong with you?

Sheesh. Last time I try to extend some sort of friendship to someone like you.

Doug, close your eyes.

PIP, the main thing I love about the cup is that I literally feel nothing. I never really thought that tampons were something I felt, but now if I use one I'm like, "WTF, this is barbaric." It's like how I never really noticed how annoying commercials were until I got Tivo and now I'm like, "NEVER AGAIN." I also often found tampons drying, which I don't get with the cup.

Some people report having milder cramps, allegedly due to the light suction-y nature of the cup, but I've always had pretty mild cramps so I can't comment on that.

I only need to worry about emptying it twice a day. So basically before I leave in the morning, and before I go to bed at night. It's so nice to never have to deal with the "Let me make sure I have everything I need for the day," "let me find a public restroom now," "Does anyone have a tampon?" sort of stuff. I have a very mild soap that I wash it with, and that's part of my morning and evening routine during that week, and that's all the thought I put into it.

It feels 'cleaner,' too, which is the opposite of what most people think. I'm not a sciencey person but I once read something about how the cup is biologically inert and how that made a difference somehow. It might have been BS or I might be remembering incorrectly, though.

But yeah, somehow having the tangible annoyances of having my period -- the need to change things over throughout the day, the physical feeling of whatever product I'm using, the occasional insecurity of wondering if I smell strange, etc -- makes it less annoying. So instead of it being annoying it's kind of, like, special? I don't know. It's like I'm free to appreciate the cooler aspects of it, like the fact that it signifies how amazing my body is, etc. OMG this is SO CORNY I AM EMBARRASSED TO POST IT.

Also, and this may be waaaaaaay TMI, but using the cup has made me way more in tune with the specifics of my cycle, since I can literally see how much and when. It's pretty cool how clockwork-like my body is, how predictable it is once I pay attention to it.

I like the cost, obviously, as well. I haven't bought "feminine hygiene" products in like two years. I keep a couple on hand in case a guest needs them but it's nice to have the extra space in my bathroom.

I like the...I guess the little rituals involved in caring for permanent things, as opposed to buying and tossing temporary things. I mean like I use cloth rags instead of paper towels, etc, and I find some small pleasure in the cycle of cleaning and using. It makes me more mindful of everything, which in turn makes me more appreciative of everything. Taking care of things, putting the small effort into living an overall healthier and happier life, that sort of thing. It's the same thing that draws me to NFP as birth control -- I find pleasure in the banality of the minor work involved in caring for myself and my things, and through that I find appreciation for all the various things I have. I am so lucky to have counters to wipe down and dishes to wash (and food to wash off of them) and this amazingly complex body that keeps time to its own internal metronome. That sort of thing.

I sewed and embroidered a cute little case for the cup, too. :) So that makes me happy. When I start to feel PMSy it's kind of a treat to go get the pouch out of its drawer and put it in my bag. Like, "Hello, old friend." LOL.

I initially tried a Diva Cup but it was too big for me, so it was really uncomfortable and I had problems with leaking. I think it's the longest of all of them. Now I use a Lunette, which is shorter and more flexible; I trimmed the "tail" almost completely off to make it even shorter. I have never had a problem with leaks or discomfort or anything, with the Lunette. I found that a good way to get past the initial learning curve is to, uh, work with it in the shower.

Okay, Doug, you can open your eyes again. Let this be a lesson to you all, never to ask me a personal question after I've had a beer.

Yeah, I'm still kind of ambivalent about getting off the shot, still. I mean, my hormones will go back to normal, but if what I read here is true my PMS headaches (a main complaint) might become migraines. And I don't want to have to switch back..

Thanks Alexandra for your reply :)

Calm down Oliver. First, why do you assume you know more about my body then I do? Do you really think I don't know what I put into my body effects me physically? If anything I know more about food in relation to my health, being a vegetarian I have extensively studied nutrition and I know what my body needs. Trust me, giving up wheat isn't an option for me. And you say "get pregnant" like it's no big deal. I started getting my period at ten, ten years old, and you casually mention getting pregnant as a practical solution? Do you really think having a baby at ten years old is a good idea? Do you think ten year olds should even be having sex?

I never said a woman who choose to have children is "unlearned" I just think it's sick to advise a ten year old to go out and get pregnant. If you had a ten year old daughter would you want her having sex?

And I have never bashed community college, you just made that up. My problem was that people were down playing Michelle Obama's education, like she just got a free ride. My problem was that Palin went to several different schools without graduating from them. She was showing that she was indecisive and backed down from tough situations. I would have been more impressed if she went to a local community college and stuck it out till she at least knew what she wanted to go to school for. But no, she went to Hawaii and the midwest and back to Alaska. And she was only at most schools for one or two semester. Do you think she really got a feel for the school before she decided to leave? Do we really want a vice president who gives up after three months?

And who is someone like me? Do you really know me? Oh of course you personally know me very well, you read some things I said on the internet. Well you know what? I don't want to be friends with someone who thinks it's a good idea for ten year olds to have sex. Or anyone who thinks getting rid of cramps is a good reason to have a kid. Children aren't playthings, they aren't something to have just for the heck of it, when you have a child you bring another person into this world. A human being. Don't you get what a big deal that is?

I don't think people on this blog get what a huge deal it is to have a child. When that human is made, a sperm and an egg combine, the potential fills the size of this universe and then some. One person, one life, one beating heart, thinking brain, soul can hold everything in its hands. Obama was once just that little human clump of cells, now he will hold the fate of so many of the others in his hands.

People think it's just abortion or birth when it come to a new human but the possibilities are infinite.

Jess,
I truly understand the miracle of pregnancy and childbirth. I have been pregnant 7 times. I also truly understand that it is God who orchestrated it all and I love Him all the more for being God and blessing me with the miracle of children. There is NOTHING in my life that will ever equal the experience of pregnancy and pushing that exquisite babe out. I am crying just thinking of looking into my children's eyes for the very first time. Ah, the wonder, the awe!!! The universe cannot contain the joy I have felt at being A MOMMY!!

Nothing is "just anything." :)

Jess, I'm just going to say this one more time. Oliver wasn't telling you go to go out and get pregnant as a treatment, but rather explaining that getting pregnant and having a baby often offers a cure. There's a difference.

I might say to someone, well pregnancy will stop your periods for about a year. That doesn't mean I'm telling the person to go out and get pregnant, just that I'm informing them that should they get pregnant they should look forward to about a year without a period.

You're coming across as hysterical and blathering on about how Oliver supposedly thinks that a 10 year old should get pregnant. DO you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

As for the diet, you aren't as much of a special flower as you think you are. No one is. There are universal truths about nutrition. One such truth is that 80% of women with endometriosis see improvement by removing wheat products from their diet. That's how Oliver can presume to "know" about your body. You might fall in the 20% that doesn't get relief, but the odds are in the favor of wheat reduction bringing some relief.

It's really not as hard to cut out wheat as you think. There are tons of alternative products, and if you don't eat alot of processes foods to begin with, the transistion is especially easy. It does take a few weeks to get into the swing of things, but once you're there it's great. Whole Foods has a great line of wheat free/ gluten free products that are, frankly, delicious.

Just accept that there are people in teh world who have gone through what you are going through and are trying to help. DOn't be so suspicious!

Jess: "Calm down Oliver. First, why do you assume you know more about my body then I do? Do you really think I don't know what I put into my body effects me physically? If anything I know more about food in relation to my health, being a vegetarian I have extensively studied nutrition and I know what my body needs. Trust me, giving up wheat isn't an option for me. And you say "get pregnant" like it's no big deal. I started getting my period at ten, ten years old, and you casually mention getting pregnant as a practical solution? Do you really think having a baby at ten years old is a good idea? Do you think ten year olds should even be having sex? "

I put a smiley face after the "the best if to get pregnant" first of all. I was obviously being sarcastic. Second of all, I used a present tense anyways. So even if you somehow missed the joke, you still should have never got the idea that I wanted you to be pregnant at 10.

Honestly, how do you people put up with her? Look at how she responded to my original post. Im seriously shocked.

Lauren and Oliver,
I respect and admire you both very much. You are very eloquent and I enjoy your posts.
I did edit your comment Oliver as I didn't want to delete the whole thing.
Jess is a young college student. She does not have the life experience that we have. Also, she jumps to conclusions, derails threads to talk about saving animals over the unborn, being a vegan and basically twists words and thoughts and ideas into something that you are sure you never said. She does not stop to think before she types and hits post.
She needs some grace.
Gotta love her!! :) She is a sweetheart but maybe skimming her comments might help?!

Well Lauren, I'm that 20% then. And Oliver, the point is I wanted to stop the painful cramps so I could continue to live my life without stopping for a few days every month. I consider pregnancy something huge beyond words, and it upset me that a lot of people don't take it seriously. Think about it, when you have a child you're a parent to that child for all eternity, I'm thinking about it and it's awe inspiring.

I didn't mean to offend you Oliver, so I'm sorry and I'm sorry it's my fault this discussion took a nose dive : ( Really though, if you think there hasn't been people on this bored who feel girls should get married and have children as soon as they start their periods you'd be wrong (um does anyone remember the story of the raped nine year old where the general thought seemed to be, if she's old enough to get pregnant she's old enough to have children?).

And Carla about saving animals over the unborn, can't we save them both? I believe the way people treat animals mimics the way they treat people. Don't you think that if we, as a nation, stood up for the rights of animals who have none, it would be easier for us to stand up for the rights of babies? I do.
*Hugs for Carla*

*board

Jess, thank you for apologizing about the tone. However, I still don't understand why keep claiming that the only thing that can help your cramps is birth control when we've given you lots of evidence to the contrary. I'm honestly curious why you are so convinced that birth control is the best option, when there are so many other methods out there that do not carry the risks associated with the pill.

Because Lauren I am not one to casually take medicine. I had the cramps for about five or six years until I began taking the pill, and I tried everything I could think of, or family, friends or doctors could suggest. As for the wheat, I have a very sensitive stomach to certain types of food, or if I don't eat certain types of food. Like I get sick if I eat fried food, I get sick if I don't eat whole grains. But hey, if I do ever get married I'll stop the pill and try your suggestions. That is until I get pregnant : )

Hugs for Jess!
I was speaking about you, Jess. You have elevated the "rights" of animals over the rights of unborn babies. I do not believe that animals have inherent rights like humans. I disagree with you there. Unborn human babies have a right to life.
So you think if everyone saved the animals and thought more of their well being they would then want to save babies? I doubt it.
I love animals. I don't torture my cat and I teach my children to treat it well, but they also know that human beings have more value than animals. God gave them our cat for our enjoyment and unconditional love and for His glory.

Someday, Jess. You might think that babies deserve to live.

Also, natural progesterone cream is not a drug nor medicine. :)

Well Carla, I'm not the only one who thinks animal rights and human rights are related...

"A righteous man has regard for the life of his beast."
--Proverbs 12:10

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
--Ghandi

"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."
--Abraham Lincoln

"Love animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and joy untroubled. Do not trouble their joy, don't harass them, don't deprive them of their happiness, don't work against God's intent. Man, do not pride yourself on superiority to animals; they are without sin, and you, with your greatness, defile the earth by your appearance on it, and leave the traces of your foulness after you--alas, it is true of almost every one of us!"
--Fyodor Dostoyevsky (novelist)

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
--Thomas Edison (inventor)

I don't know Carla, do you think they might be on to something : )

One of my favorite pro life stickers I have is a little white seal with the words "Save the Baby Humans".

Yes, have regard for animals, Jess. Not above humans.
All the other quotes are opinions. The Bible is not an opinion. :)

Carla my favorite book in the Bible is Job. My favorite verse in the Book of Job is chapter 12 verse 7, "But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you; And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you."

http://bible.cc/job/12-7.htm

I believe this to be God saying that humans can learn from animals, and that the way we treat animals reflects how we treat other humans.

If you like that bumper sticker Liz how would you feel about a little seal saying, "Club Sandwiches Not Babies"? The original say's "club sandwiches not seals" but I feel it would apply to the atrocities committed on the babies who survive abortion attempts. If you made some I would put one on my car. Well since I don't have my car up at school I would put it on my purse : )

Jess,
How does that jive with your prochoice stance??? We can learn from animals, love them, touch them, be friends with them. You give more thought to animals than human babies. That doesn't add up with what you just said.
The way you treat animals Jess should be the way you treat human babies, by not supporting abortion.

Sometimes Carla animal mothers kill their young, usually to "protect them." Maybe if we didn't harass pregnant animals like we harass pregnant women, like lying to them about what abortion actually is, it wouldn't be as prevalent.

Jess, what are you talking about? I really don't understand what you mean.

when did all these people start getting masters and doctorites in psychology? you don't know how these children are going to turn out; no one does because it's never happened before. there was almost zero literature on children with gay parents until some brave people noticed and decided to start looking at it. and those kids are just fine. if you're finding articles that aren't research and written by someone with a Ph.D. then they aren't too creditable.
unstable situation? really? you know them and understand what it's like to feel like your trapped in the wrong body? i didn't think so. the surgery wouldn't of been performed if thomas had not passed a battery of psychological tests and therapy hours while living as a man for a year because that's how it works. she has to live as a man, but that doesn't mean he HAD TO give up his female organs. it's not mandated anywhere and if you would of met him on the street before the big baby bulge you would of never known that thomas use to be tracy. he is legally a male and the right to create life is a right of any human regardless of sex (though some people shouldn't be allowed to parents let alone breed). if a hermaphrodite was pregnant people wouldn't be so biblical because they were born that way but it would still be taboo.
so quit talking about the psychological factors of the children because they only see love for their parents. don't force emotions and ideas on children that they learn from their family and environment; things like hatred and prejudge.

Lauren I feel that the way people treat animals is a reflection of how they treat humans. If we as a nation took more responsibility in animal rights we would be able to improve human rights.

Really though, if you think there hasn't been people on this bored who feel girls should get married and have children as soon as they start their periods you'd be wrong (um does anyone remember the story of the raped nine year old where the general thought seemed to be, if she's old enough to get pregnant she's old enough to have children?).

this comment ignores two things:
1. there is a baby - a human person INSIDE that 9 yearold
2. the pregnancy and delivery while difficult for a 9 year old is far safer than the abortion which will raise her chance of developing breast cancer significantly as well as the prospect of impairing her future fertility.

stop using "hard cases" to make your points Jess. They never work.

Patricia you're partially full of it.

I don't know the stats, and how much of a greater chance it is- BUT there is a greater predisposition to breast cancer with early menarche (before age 12). This is because the woman has more periods in her life which increases her risk for breast or uterine cancer.

don't know the stats, and how much of a greater chance it is- BUT there is a greater predisposition to breast cancer with early menarche (before age 12). This is because the woman has more periods in her life which increases her risk for breast or uterine cancer.

Posted by: Rae at November 15, 2008 8:16 PM

not if she has children she's meant to have! The best protector against breast cancer is pregnancy and nursing. :-P

a woman's body is not meant to have years and years of periods. It was designed for child bearing and nursing. Or maybe you hadn't noticed....

@Patricia: So, women should start popping out kids at menarche like we did in the good ol' days?

My gynecologist told me of girls who were TWENTY FIVE, had early menarche and had to have hysterectomies...at 25...due to tumors from having so many periods at a young age.

The average age of a woman getting married in America is 26. You expect women to be chaste until marriage, right? So if these girls are getting their periods at 11-12 (early) but are not marrying until 26 and during that time are being abstinent per your religious beliefs- so therefore are not having children. These girls got cancer at 24-25- before the average age of marriage.

What to do?

Get married earlier.

@Jasper: And statistics show that individuals who get married at younger ages are more likely to be divorced within 5 years.

Divorce is a sin, is it not?

Rae, statistics mean nothing for individual couples. Statistics show that you have a 50% chance of divorce regardless of the age you get married.

My husband and I got married 4 years ago, and we're still happily married. In fact, every couple we know who got married before or around 20 is still married. And we know a lot. And these aren't uneducated hillbillies either, but very educated successful couples.

I only know one person who got married before 25 who is now divorced.

On the other hand, I know several people who got married after 25 and their marriages ended within a couple of years.

My brother in law for example lived with his girlfriend for like 6 years before they finally got married at about 30. They lasted a year and a half and then his wife left him for another man.

Age does not mean you will have a successful marriage. In fact, in earlier generations when people married at an earlier age, the divorce rate was far lower. It is a modern custom to wait several years to marry the person you intend to marry, and it hasn't worked out all too well for our society.

@Lauren: And I know of friends' parents who married young and divorced shortly thereafter and friends who's parents got married older and are still together.

My parents are odd, in that my dad was 27 and my mom was 21 when they got married, and they've been married over 25 years now. My mom's older sister got married right out of high school, had a daughter and divorced (got an annulment actually...) and married her husband who also had gotten a divorce at a young age as he also married right out of high school). My mom's younger brother also divorced the woman he married during college (young).

On the other hand, my dad's sister also got married young out of high school to her husband (shot gun wedding!) and managed to stay married. My dad's younger brother married older and he's still married.

Just sayin'.

Ive always wondered, why save the animals but not the plants?

@Oliver: No kidding. How many plants suffered needless pain and suffering to go into your damn salad?

@Patricia: So, women should start popping out kids at menarche like we did in the good ol' days?

My gynecologist told me of girls who were TWENTY FIVE, had early menarche and had to have hysterectomies...at 25...due to tumors from having so many periods at a young age.

The average age of a woman getting married in America is 26. You expect women to be chaste until marriage, right? So if these girls are getting their periods at 11-12 (early) but are not marrying until 26 and during that time are being abstinent per your religious beliefs- so therefore are not having children. These girls got cancer at 24-25- before the average age of marriage.

What to do?

Posted by: Rae at November 15, 2008 10:58 PM

once again you present a "hard case"
ethics are not decided upon by hard cases.
I got my period at 12 and didn't have my first child until I was 30 - almost 31. And I did suffer from PMS most miserably.
But then, I wasn't sexually active until I got married and my reproductive system was very healthy.
And yes, I think Jasper has a valid point: many women should reconsider the age they think is "right" for marriage.
I am encouraging my daughters to go to school but also that if they meet a good man - get married and have children - in their twenties. There are many options now available for getting educated.

Oh yeah Oliver because plants totally have brains and hearts and things like that. Honestly Oliver of course I'm going to respond to your posts with "lol" and not take you seriously when you ask questions like that.

And Jasper and Patricia I started my period at ten, do you think I should have gotten married, started having sex and tried to get pregnant then? Oh what don't even bother answering I know the answer is yes. Well I have to disagree with you, I think forcing a ten year old to have sex is wrong.

So Patricia if women should get married earlier should they just marry the first person who they date? The point of dating is to see if you and the person are compatible. Well even if I don't get married young I'm fine with that. I refuse to settle for less then the best.

Rae, you're a cabbage : P

Alexandra: Okay, Doug, you can open your eyes again. Let this be a lesson to you all, never to ask me a personal question after I've had a beer.

Ha!

Here's a six-pack. Let's see what happens.

Jess: "Oh yeah Oliver because plants totally have brains and hearts and things like that. Honestly Oliver of course I'm going to respond to your posts with "lol" and not take you seriously when you ask questions like that. "

So what? Lizards are cold blooded and fish dont feel pain. There are lots of differences among animals. Why does a heart and brain make a life special?

Plants are life too.

Did you know that when you eat a root based plant, you are totally and completely destroying its life?

How do you figure fish don't feel pain Oliver? Well Oliver if you were man enough to watch this video (which you aren't) you would understand the difference between eating animals and eating plants.
http://www.meat.org/

Jess, Oliver is plenty "man enough" to watch your video. He's watched me hemorrhage while pregnant thinking that both me and his child were going to die. He isn't exactly squeemish when it comes to the sight of blood.

I don't understand how you can be outraged by the sight of a cow being slaughtered, but not by the sight of a child being torn apart limb by limb. There are plenty of videos out there showing just that, and I challenge you to watch them.

Oliver at 1:29 was me, obviously.

I already watched them Lauren and if you cared to ask my stance on abortion you would know. However you and Oliver would much rather berate me for offering the idea that animal rights and human rights activists can join forces to fight the atrocities going on in this country. I guess the pro-life movement doesn't need any more supporters. Fine I'll just focus all of my efforts on animal rights, we'll accept anyone's help.

"once again you present a "hard case"
ethics are not decided upon by hard cases."

Yes they are. If ethics are found to be solid in hard cases, they will be inherently sound in "easy" cases.

"I got my period at 12 and didn't have my first child until I was 30 - almost 31. And I did suffer from PMS most miserably.
But then, I wasn't sexually active until I got married and my reproductive system was very healthy."

And my mom got married at 21 and couldn't maintain her pregnancies- so she finally had 3 kids after several miscarriages and her reproductive system is STILL a mess. My maternal grandma got married young too- had 6 kids (lots of miscarriages) had reproductive issues until her 60s when she finally got a hysterectomy. My paternal grandma also married young, had reproductive issues (only had 4 kids), ended up with uterine cancer and had to have a hysterectomy in her 60s. My aunt had reproductive troubles- only had one kid and ended up getting a complete hysterectomy (ovaries and uterus removed) in her 40s.

I would almost say what happened with you is not the norm.

"And yes, I think Jasper has a valid point: many women should reconsider the age they think is "right" for marriage.
I am encouraging my daughters to go to school but also that if they meet a good man - get married and have children - in their twenties. There are many options now available for getting educated."

What I've noticed- the reason the age of marriage has gotten later is because women are going to work so that they can meet a man through work because generally- college guys are immature douchebags. It's very hard to find a mature, decent man in college. So they work to make money so that when they finally get married (later on when they meet a mature, decent man), they can take the time off to raise the chitlins instead of taking the 12 week maternity leave and then sticking the kid in day care at 3 months of age so she can get a job to help the hubsters bring home the bacon.

Jess, we aren't berating you for being an animal rights activist. You have made comments both ways about being pro-choice/pro-life so I thought you were probably in the personally pro-life, politically pro-choice crowd. If this isn't the case I'd be happy to hear that you are now politically pro-life as well.

We don't have a problem with you being a vegetarian at all. The only thing that we (and others) don't understand is how some people can be such staunch animal rights activists while still being staunchly pro-choice. If this isn't you, then great!

The pro-life movement needs all the help it can get, and I'm trilled that you would want to help.

Jess I think would like to be prolife however that is conditional on how we(the commenters here)act, what we say and how we say it.

I wouldn't base wether or not I'm pro-life on how I'm treated on this blog Carla.

@Oliver: No kidding. How many plants suffered needless pain and suffering to go into your damn salad?

Posted by: Rae at November 16, 2008 1:11 AM

You got the lulz going there.

Jess: "I already watched them Lauren and if you cared to ask my stance on abortion you would know. However you and Oliver would much rather berate me for offering the idea that animal rights and human rights activists can join forces to fight the atrocities going on in this country."

What are you talking about? Berate you for supporting animal rights? Quote me on it Jess. On another note, in addition to testing for endometriosis you may need to have yourself tested for schizophrenia. You are asserting things that are not happening.

Jess: "Well Oliver if you were man enough to watch this video (which you aren't) you would understand the difference between eating animals and eating plants."

Ill brush aside the lame insult to my manhood and question you why? Why is destroying the life of a plant any different from destroying the life of an animal?

You act like it is crazy...the Janists believe that destroying the life of a root plant is just as terrible as destroying the life of an animal.

Im just curious what about animals make them so much more special. To me the idea makes little sense. I dont think animals should suffer and that we should respect their lives, but I dont see how their lives are any more sacred than a plant. I dont think wantonly destroying even a field of grass is moral either. However, life breathes death. If we are to live, we must kill something else. I dont see how animals beat plants, so I find that either are suitable food sources. You obviously think that animals trump plants, so my question is why?

@Oliver: My guess is because animals have consciousness and are aware.

Plants lack consciousness. I can't say the lack nervous systems...because some plants like Venus Flytraps and Mimosas have nerve-like responses, although they do not have nerves.

Then again- people don't eat Mimosas or Venus Flytraps.

Awareness scales as animals become more developed. What specialness does a fly or a fish have? They are not really "aware" in the sense that mammals are. In fact, in a lot of ways similar to the Venus Flytrap, they simply react to stimulus.

Besides, what is so special and worth preserving about consciousness?

Jess,
I guess I haven't heard in a long while WHY you are prochoice or proabortion. Can you please explain? Thank you.

@Oliver: That's incorrect. Flies and fish are much more aware than a Venus Flytrap.

A Venus Flytrap reacts only to touch- it has to have a fly or other insect touching it in order for it to react. Flies and fish react to light, scent, touch and they also do not wait for a stimulus to occur in order to react. They actively go out and perform the activities they need to do in order to survive- a Venus Flytrap does not and can not.

Consciousness is seen as important because it is a trait that we humans share with our animal brethren. We value our consciousness (for whatever reason) and when we see conscious movement or reactions to stimuli-we see a bit of ourselves.

Flies make the conscious effort to fly away when it sees a hand looming over it. Fish make the conscious effort to hunt food. Venus Flytraps just sit there- waiting for food to accidentally step on it.

Granted, but they do not "think" in the sense that we may associate with a few of the more highly developed animals.

I just dont see what makes their life more valuable than anything else. I wouldnt consider what a sea anemone does vastly different from a venus flytrap either.

I think you sort of hit the nail on the head when you say that we respect certain lifeforms because they resemble us. In other words, it seems to be a pretty much an appeal to our emotions. Kind of how some people (not necessarily you Jess, calm down) may feel bad for cows and champion cows but not give a crap for other "less majestic" animals.

In other words, do whatever you like, but there is no rational justification for prefering animals over plants. The lives of animals hold no special significance over humans. Most animals are not self-aware and simply react to various stimuli or the lack thereof instinctually.