"Asi se aborta en España"

That means, "This is How Abortions are Done in Spain," a groundbreaking program showing abortions on Spanish national television for the first time last week. If only the American media were so honest.

According to LifeSiteNews.com, a reporter posing as an abortionist seeking work at El Bosque de Madrid got the footage. The report is entirely in Spanish, a tad frustrating.

Following is the exposé. The first of 2 abortions is shown at 9:12. They are induced labor abortions, such as I witnessed at Christ Hospital. The first mother in the video appears to have had an epidural because her legs are floppy. Not sure on the 2nd. The brown tube is a catheter into the bladder, inserted because pregnant mothers with epidurals have lost the urge to urinate, and an empty bladder also makes more room for the baby to come down.

These mothers have had medication or laminaria (seaweed sticks) inserted into the birth canal to open the cervix, a process that can take 1 day to several days. The nurse has assessed they're ready to deliver. Little push, and the babies are out. The video states 1 of the babies, shown in the soiled utility room later, was 20-21 weeks old, or 5 months. LSN reported staff killed the baby beforehand by lethal injection. I wish someone would translate the video into English. LSN has done some transcribing, which I've excerpted on page 2.

In a strange development, after that broadcast someone anonymously brought a chopped up fetus to the television studio, which filmed the remains and then took them to police. This baby was aborted via the D&E procedure, or dilatation & evacuation.

Since November, Spanish police have been conducting raids on illegal late-term mills. If only the American justice system were so diligent.

[HT: reader Gary]

Quoting LSN:

"The baby is born dead. His cradle: a trash can," says the commentator in voice-over on the tape. An abortion of the baby of a second woman is also shown.

After showing the second abortion, the commentator remarks. "As soon as the baby is born, the doctor must cover it up. No one looks at it. No one examines it."

Later, the undercover reporter examines one of the dead children. "Hands, feet, a face. The cadaver of a human being," the commentator notes. The doctor, a woman, remarks that the baby is 21 weeks old, but says she "never" looks at the bodies of the fetuses.

"Never?" asks the undercover reporter, who is posing as a doctor looking for work at the clinic. "Never," the woman repeats "Never, never, never again!" When asked why, the doctor says "Because I don't like it." "Of course, you are a mother, I assume, right?" the reporter asks. No answer is given.

All of the patients preparing for abortions were over five months pregnant, "a period in which the fetus is completely formed and in possession of all of its senses," notes the voice-over. One of the patients is only 15 years old.

The doctor explicitly acknowledges in the video that many of the patients have no valid reason for their abortions. However, she assures the reporter that the clinic has a psychiatrist who will automatically sign the necessary forms to authorize it because of "psychological" need as required under Spanish law.

"Here they sign everything," she says. "The psychiatrist is a member of the clinic and everything is done in house." The test she gives is "a mere procedure."

"Here, whoever wants an abortion, gets one," says the commentator, noting that such procedures described are illegal. The doctor admits that this is business as usual....

The clinic is in desperate need of personnel, explains the commentator.

In the video, the owner explains that they used to have the nurses do the abortions, although the law will no longer allow this. He blithely describes the procedure as it was done by nurses, telling the undercover reporter... it is only necessary to "wait until the woman expels it (the fetus), and to take it out by its rear end. If the placenta doesn't come out they call me."

He assures the undercover reporter that if if that happens "you grab the pincers...and 'pin pin pin' and that's it," waving his hands around with a casual look on his face.


Comments:

Kyrie eleison.

Posted by: John Jansen at December 21, 2007 9:30 AM


The Spanish were also responsible for the Inquisition. You don't think we should have that in America do you?

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 10:20 AM


I wish I could save those babies. I would take all of them in my home in a heartbeat. Doesn't matter how disabled they are. Each one is special and unique and beautiful. I personally know so many other women who would do the same.

These babies could be hugged and kissed every day, tucked into bed at night, told bedtime stories, go to school, fall in love, get married, etc...

...and instead, their life is taken, they're chopped into bits by the very person who should think they are the most important creatures on this earth- the one who should be their sole protector in life.... because the mother is too selfish to think about anyone besides herself.. :-(

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 10:21 AM


Jess, I'm sure you can finish this quote:

"Ask a stupid question....."

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 10:23 AM


This is horrifying. I am so sad right now.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 10:58 AM


Has any pro-choicer watched either of the videos yet, and delighted themselves in what they support allowing women to choose to do with their babies?

Come on, guys, let's hear how these videos warm your heart and soul, and remind you of the wonderful rights and freedoms you have as women.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:00 AM


I don't think they give a rat's ass. Look at Jess's smartmouth comment.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 11:02 AM


I know! Isn't it disgusting. She probably didn't even watch the video.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:03 AM


Jill,
Yo hablo espanol. Let me know if I may be of translating service.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 11:05 AM


Maybe Santa will give someone a heart for Christmas.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 11:07 AM


He tried, Carrie. It always turned to coal.
:(

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:16 AM


Castillian spanish can be a bit more challenging to translate, just cause the accent is so strong. But I got the point. Sadly.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 11:17 AM


Beloved Bethany,
"Come on, guys, let's hear how these videos warm your heart and soul, and remind you of the wonderful rights and freedoms you have as women."

To quote our resident rabid choicer, "It's a non-story."

Another day in their paradise. And according to another pleasant choicer, offering up those same babies for adoption would be cruel.

If they speak up, it will probably be to minimize the impact of it all. Not to say how horrible it was.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 11:22 AM


Wow, I guess I can't 'Torquemada' it! Hahaha! Sorry but you can blame that on Mel Brooks.

Fine Bethany, if you want to take in all those babies more power to you. I, obviously, have a heart of coal and therefore am not fit to be anyone's mother so I guess they're SOL with me.

However, Bethany, I'm sure there are a lot of foster children in this country who could use a wonderful foster mother like you. Ever consider it? (Just wondering)

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 11:27 AM


Oh come on - no argument that it's rather a gross-out.

I doubt anybody would say it's "heart-warming." It makes a difference to me how long gestation has gone on, and I think it does to many people.

I'd rather it would be an earlier abortion versus a later one, and best of all would be prevention.

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 11:29 AM


"... Jess's smart..."
Thanks Carrie a nice compliment is always a good way to start the day!"

And Carder I'm not sure I know who you are referring to as I am the only pro-choicer who commented so far and have said nothing specifically about the videos. In fact I didn't watch them yet, they could for all I know turn me pro-life. I just felt like throwing that in to see if any rapid anti-choicer would make a "yay for inquisition" comment. Maybe when Zeke gets here...

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 11:33 AM


In fact I didn't watch them yet, they could for all I know turn me pro-life.

Why don't we make it an experiment then? Will you watch the videos?

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:34 AM


True, prevention. But the way women are treated in by the health care industry is appaling. I am personally for free health care. And a better understanding of women's health. And a better understanding of pre-natal abnormalities and birth defects to help prevent late term abortions.

P.S. Bethany I thought we were friends. I even went to your website and read it : (

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 11:36 AM


Oh come on - no argument that it's rather a gross-out.

I don't think we're worried about seeing a little "yuckiness" or blood, Doug. That's not the problem and you know it. The problem is that it's a snuffing of a little baby.

"I'd rather... prevention", etc really sounds like you're outraged, Doug. Not. This is a 23 week old unborn child, who you admit has started to have consciousness. Isn't this where you draw the line? You should be really horrified if you truly had a problem with abortions after viability. That child suffered before dying. It shouldn't be a "well, I'd "rather" it have happened differently", with a careless shrug of your shoulders. I doubt you'd be really convinced that I hated molestation if I said, after seeing a video of a little girl being raped I said, "Well, I'd rather it be prevented, but oh well, what can you do?"

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:39 AM


Yes bethany, I will watch the videos. Just not now. I have to go visit people I promised I would write to in school but never did because I couldn't get stamps. Expect to here from me in a few hours.

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 11:39 AM


Jess, I am still your friend, but I simply cannot support your position on abortion. And your comment really offended me. You have to understand that after seeing a video like that and then hearing your comment, it was very insensitive and I reacted in a like manner. It has nothing to do with you personally, but with the issue of abortion. Know what I mean?

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:41 AM


Yes bethany, I will watch the videos. Just not now. I have to go visit people I promised I would write to in school but never did because I couldn't get stamps. Expect to here from me in a few hours.

Okay, Jess. Sorry if I was a little snippy, but you've got to understand the nature of this post is very, very sensitive to us pro-lifers.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:42 AM


Fine Bethany, if you want to take in all those babies more power to you. I, obviously, have a heart of coal and therefore am not fit to be anyone's mother so I guess they're SOL with me.
However, Bethany, I'm sure there are a lot of foster children in this country who could use a wonderful foster mother like you. Ever consider it? (Just wondering)

Yes, I've considered adopting and fostering to adopt. I went to the orphanage the other day and the children there are so sweet. There was a teenage boy there who was just so sweet and helpful (he helped me unload some stuff that I was taking there for their charity sale). I know if I went in there, I'd want to take them all home with me.

I didn't say that you have a heart of coal, but anyone who could watch that video without feeling something would have a heart of coal, or stone.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:49 AM


Doug said,
"I'd rather it would be an earlier abortion versus a later one, and best of all would be prevention."

Sure thing, Doug, because the smaller the babies parts lying on a cold, steel tray the better!

NOT!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 21, 2007 11:53 AM


Bethany,
you are so sweet!

BTW...I'm sure as soon as Hal gets on, he'll just jump on watching the video right away! I'm looking forward to his comments!

Posted by: AB Laura at December 21, 2007 11:55 AM


Would we like to get some videos of the children starving to death on the streets of Brazil?

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 11:56 AM


Jess,
The comment wasn't about you.

Doug,
Are you still in the Land of So What? (I love you John McD)

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 11:59 AM


TRed,
Absolutely. I'm sure it will move some of us to do something about it. Anything.

It's not so much that we view human misery in all it's glory over the tube. How we react is the key.

And your reaction has just affirmed what your brand of pro-choice-ism is about.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 12:08 PM


Would we like to get some videos of the children starving to death on the streets of Brazil?

If you posted it, I'm sure that every pro-lifers eyes would be wet.

AB Laura, you are sweet too...actually, all of my friends here are. I love you girls.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 12:17 PM


T Red,
If you can grab some, go right on ahead.

Viewing human misery is not so much the issue. It's how we react to it.

Your reaction just doesn't surprise me.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 12:18 PM


I have some news. They have been able to detect my son's disablity using brain scans in infancy and they are trying to find the gene that causes it. Now, if they were going to use this info for early detection, then great! However, we all know where this is going don't we? In five to ten more years, they will find a way to detect this disability in unborn children. The same thing that has happened to children with Down's Syndrome will happen to kids like my son. These children will end up being aborted at about the age that the babies in this video are. I hope there is someone around like Jill to give them comfort care so they don't die alone on a shelf!!!!

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 12:22 PM


Sorry about the repeating posts. Computer not cooperating. But you get the point.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 12:23 PM


TR

Would we like to get some videos of the children starving to death on the streets of Brazil?

We would if this was a site about starving children, but as it's a site about abortion I'm not sure I see the point.

Probably shouldn't show any videos of giraffes eating marshmallows either, as this is not a site about giraffes or marshmallow consuption.

Posted by: mk at December 21, 2007 1:22 PM


AB Laura: Sure thing, Doug, because the smaller the babies parts lying on a cold, steel tray the better!

NOT!

I disagree, Laura. Earlier abortions are better than later ones, IMO.

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 1:23 PM


Doctor: I never look at it. ..Never, never ever.

Interviewer: Why not?

Doctor: (Lowers her voice) Because I don't like it.

Telling, isn't it?

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 1:28 PM


I don't think we're worried about seeing a little "yuckiness" or blood, Doug. That's not the problem and you know it. The problem is that it's a snuffing of a little baby.

Bethany, yet some people feel that way at conception, and that's what I disagree with. Development does make a difference to me. As the weeks in the 20s go by, I do see more and more of a "baby" there.
......

"I'd rather... prevention", etc really sounds like you're outraged, Doug. Not. This is a 23 week old unborn child, who you admit has started to have consciousness. Isn't this where you draw the line? You should be really horrified if you truly had a problem with abortions after viability. That child suffered before dying. It shouldn't be a "well, I'd "rather" it have happened differently", with a careless shrug of your shoulders. I doubt you'd be really convinced that I hated molestation if I said, after seeing a video of a little girl being raped I said, "Well, I'd rather it be prevented, but oh well, what can you do?"

At 23 weeks I think consciousness and suffering is arguable. Even if not, it's to be weighed against the suffering of the pregnant woman.

23 weeks really isn't "after viability." Right now, that's right about the 50/50 point for survival if the hospital is among the best for preemie care.

You're right about the little girl being raped, but there it's exceedingly one-sided, in both your opinion and mine. I don't take the side of the rapist as I do for the pregnant woman.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 1:29 PM


Are you still in the Land of So What?

Carder, I don't see a "so what?" there, but abortions aren't "on their own" without people being involved. There is the woman to think of.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 1:32 PM


somebody is going to pay for this.

Posted by: jasper at December 21, 2007 1:36 PM


The beginning of the undercover segment shows the clinic owner(?) discussing compensation. I have to listen to it again, but it seems that the more visits from the aborted mother, the higher the pay.

Latin America tends to show more graphic scenes on television than American tv. I was taken aback to see a full view of the birthing area, but I had to remind myself this was Spain; not too much of a shocker for them.. But the comentator does narrate something to the effect that in all his years of journalism, he has never come across something like this. That was just before she pushed her dead baby out.

Oh, and the 15 year old was there with her father.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 1:37 PM


According to the doctor, those women were there "porque si", translated, "just because".

No life/death situation, no fetal anomalies, no health protecting.

Porque si.

Which can easily slip into "so what".

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 1:42 PM


thanks for that translation Carder.

Posted by: jasper at December 21, 2007 1:42 PM


De nada, Jasper.

The doctor has a gentle, coaxing way of getting mom to push. As momtries to expel her son/daughter, the doc is there saying, "That's it, my love, Yes, my love that's it."

My love. @@

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 1:55 PM


Carder,

Interesting. The devil is a great liar. I'm not saying these people are the devil but he is working through them.

As Father John Corapi said: the devil wants to see your children dead in a dumpster.


Posted by: jasper at December 21, 2007 2:01 PM


I watched the first video, and it certainly is heartwarming to know that desperate 15-year-olds don't have to go through aborting unwanted pregnancies in filthy motel rooms or alone in their bathrooms in modern countries like Spain and the US. All young girls in trouble should have such caring and professional help.

Posted by: tp at December 21, 2007 2:31 PM


carder --

Latin America tends to show more graphic scenes on television than American tv. I was taken aback to see a full view of the birthing area, but I had to remind myself this was Spain; not too much of a shocker for them..

Spain is in Europe. ;)

Posted by: tp at December 21, 2007 2:35 PM


Yes, tp, Spain is in Europe. When spanish speakers refer to 'latinoamerica', it implies the spanish-speaking countries, Spain being one of them. And the Mother country for that matter. Sapin is not excluded because it's on the other side of the pond.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 2:50 PM


You know, watching a video on open heart surgery makes me rather nauseous too(not that I need the help right now). Bloody, gruesome surgical procedures are not generally leisure viewing.

Posted by: Erin at December 21, 2007 2:55 PM


TRed,
Absolutely. I'm sure it will move some of us to do something about it. Anything.

It's not so much that we view human misery in all it's glory over the tube. How we react is the key.

And your reaction has just affirmed what your brand of pro-choice-ism is about.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 12:08 PM
**************************
My "brand" of pro choice is letting women make up their own mind and do what they think is best. Sometimes women have abortions because they know they couldnt feed the child or give it clothes to wear or take care of it and dont see any other option. The comments made about the women who have abortions are hatefilled, hateful and reprehensible.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 2:55 PM


T Red,
If you can grab some, go right on ahead.

Viewing human misery is not so much the issue. It's how we react to it.

Your reaction just doesn't surprise me.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 12:18 PM
***************
And what 'reaction' do you fantasize that is? Im observing what disgusting misogynistic comments are made about the women who have abortions. The insistance that the woman who has an abortion is just "too selfish" to "think of anyone but herself" is a classic example. ANY woman who has an abortion must be a monster according to 'you'. Sometimes the other choice in having an abortion is what happens to the children in Brazil. You dont want to deal with that.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 2:58 PM


Hmmmm....I've been surfing this site for a few months now and I have yet to see one hatefilled, hateful or reprehensible comment about women who've had an abortion....I do see a lot of compassion, empathy and logic though.

Interesting perspective....

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:00 PM


I have some news. They have been able to detect my son's disablity using brain scans in infancy and they are trying to find the gene that causes it. Now, if they were going to use this info for early detection, then great! However, we all know where this is going don't we? In five to ten more years, they will find a way to detect this disability in unborn children. The same thing that has happened to children with Down's Syndrome will happen to kids like my son. These children will end up being aborted at about the age that the babies in this video are. I hope there is someone around like Jill to give them comfort care so they don't die alone on a shelf!!!!

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 12:22 PM
**************************
What in the world does one have to do with the other?

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:00 PM


I've had a few years in spanish and could catch a decent amount of it, but I'm more of a reader than a listener so I got it more when the subtitles came up.

20-23 weeks. Sad. :(

Posted by: prettyinpink at December 21, 2007 3:01 PM


Sapin is not excluded because it's on the other side of the pond.

Good grief - it's clear over in Saudi Arabia heh heh heh.

http://www.sapin.com.sa/index.asp

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 3:01 PM


TR

Would we like to get some videos of the children starving to death on the streets of Brazil?

We would if this was a site about starving children, but as it's a site about abortion I'm not sure I see the point.

Probably shouldn't show any videos of giraffes eating marshmallows either, as this is not a site about giraffes or marshmallow consuption.

Posted by: mk at December 21, 2007 1:22 PM
**********************
You criticize me for using the word 'stupid' then you make a concerted effort to make the word necessary. Yes, children living in poverty and poor women having abortions because they cannot take care of a child are connected. But youre too desperate to condemn any woman who would consider abortion. Anything she does is wrong and youre better than she is, which makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Youre hatefilled hateful attitude comes as no surprise.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:03 PM


It (a heart) always turned to coal.

Bethany, speaking of "coal" - for all our arguments, your heart is a diamond.

Merry Christmas.


Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 3:04 PM


"Good grief - it's clear over in Saudi Arabia heh heh heh."

Ok--THAT was funny...

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:04 PM


"You know, watching a video on open heart surgery makes me rather nauseous too(not that I need the help right now). Bloody, gruesome surgical procedures are not generally leisure viewing."

what an insult to that unborn child.

Posted by: jasper at December 21, 2007 3:05 PM


Telling, isn't it?

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 1:28 PM
****
Is there a recording of the doctor saying that? If there is a recording can you prove it was a doctor who said it? No? The whole story was biased - propaganda from the first sentence - melodramtics, sensationalism, sentamentality and hysterics are some of the favorite tools of the antichoice side.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:05 PM


"ANY woman who has an abortion must be a monster according to 'you'."

Speaking for myself, no, I don't consider them monsters. Each situation is different, but I think "despairng" can be a common denominator. Misguided would be another. And in some instances, selfish.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:05 PM


Porque si.

*******************
That answer could also be given when someone is thinking 'This isnt really any of your business'

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:08 PM


Hmmmm....I've been surfing this site for a few months now and I have yet to see one hatefilled, hateful or reprehensible comment about women who've had an abortion....I do see a lot of compassion, empathy and logic though.

Interesting perspective....

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:00 PM
***********************
Im not surprised that you couldnt see it - not surprised at all. Pretending the insistance that any woman must only have an abortion because she is "too selfish" to think of "anyone but herself" couldnt possibly be a hateful misogynistic coment .... at least not to someone like you.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:10 PM


"And what 'reaction' do you fantasize that is?"

Changing the subject to children in Brazil rather than addressing the matter at hand.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:12 PM


I didn't say that you have a heart of coal, but anyone who could watch that video without feeling something would have a heart of coal, or stone.


Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 11:49 AM
****
Yes, Bethany, you said exactly that.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:13 PM


Hey TR--

Take a Midol and breathe into a paper bag before you rupture something.

The only one being melodramatic, sensational and hysterical here right now is you...

I don't recall making any comments at all about women being selfish...or anything else for that matter.

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:14 PM


Oh yeah...since you're an expert on "someone like me" just what am I? I'd like to know what you've gleaned from our extensive correspondences...

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:16 PM


And what 'reaction' do you fantasize that is?"

Changing the subject to children in Brazil rather than addressing the matter at hand.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:12 PM
******
No, its not. The second post in this thread insisted that the women only had abortions because they were selfish and thought only about themselves. The possibility of poverty, or the womans health are disregarded. There is always the antichoice invention that any woman who has an abortion just is a selfish self centered monster. If a woman knows she cant take care of a child and thinks she has no other option, then how does having an abortion make her 'selfish' and thinking 'only of herself'?

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:23 PM


As usual TR is attempting to make this thread all about her.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:24 PM


Take a Midol and breathe into a paper bag before you rupture something.

**************
Its as if antichoicers have some innate compulsion to look like a stupid snotty chienne .....

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:25 PM


Thank you for making my point.

BTW--strictly speaking, I am not "anti-choice".

Now if you'll excuse me, as entertaining as your meltdown is, I have Christmas goodies to go deliver.

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:26 PM


As usual TR is attempting to make this thread all about her.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:24 PM
******************
Antichoicers have abolutely no problem at all with lying. If they cant deal with what IS being said then they start inventing what they wish was being said. It never ceases to amuse me.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:26 PM


Thank you for making my point.

BTW--strictly speaking, I am not "anti-choice".

Now if you'll excuse me, as entertaining as your meltdown is, I have Christmas goodies to go deliver.

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:26 PM
***********************
Prove what point? Hopefully you will still be able to deliver your goodies with both hooves in your maw.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:30 PM


Oh TR--You crack me up!!

Moo moo to you too!

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 3:32 PM


"Is there a recording of the doctor saying that? If there is a recording can you prove it was a doctor who said it? No? The whole story was biased - propaganda from the first sentence - melodramtics, sensationalism, sentamentality and hysterics are some of the favorite tools of the antichoice side."


Wow, T Red, it was the doctor's voice saying that toward the end of the video. The same doctor throughout the whole video.

A the end, where the baby lays lifeless in the trash bag, the undercover journalist, who is male, is there with the doctor and the assistant as she (doctor) turns the head of the cadaver this way and that. After she states that the baby was 20-21 weeks old, she immediately says "But the truth is I will never look at it ever."

Journalist: Eh?

Doctor: I will never look at it.

Journalist: Never?

Doctor: Never. Ever.

Journalist: Ever?

Doctor: Ever!

Journalist: You never examine?

Doctor: Never.

Journalist: Why?

Doctor: Because, I don't like it.

Journalist: Of course, you're a mother?...

(No answer)

Now T Red, you want me to prove that it was a doctor who said all that. Let's make a deal:

You prove to me that it WASN'T a doctor, that it was all a hoax, just an incredible staging of expelling red stuff in a bag. I invite you to contact the show "Intereconomia TV Noticias" in Spain (good luck!) and expose the fraud behind their theatrics.

If you can do that, I owe you a TREMENDOUS apology.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:34 PM


TR, I hate to inform you that you are not as scary as you seem to think you are. Why would we have a problem with what you say? They are nothing more than the ravings of a madwomen.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:36 PM


"Good grief - it's clear over in Saudi Arabia heh heh heh."

Good one, Doug!

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:37 PM


Theresa, it is good to see you. Haven't heard from you in awhile.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:38 PM


TR, I hate to inform you that you are not as scary as you seem to think you are. Why would we have a problem with what you say? They are nothing more than the ravings of a madwomen.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:36 PM
***********************
Did I really need more proof of how laughably imbecilic you are?

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:41 PM


Bethany, speaking of "coal" - for all our arguments, your heart is a diamond.

Merry Christmas.


Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 3:04 PM
***************************
A diamond is a whole lot harder and colder than coal and they also tend to be very very small ... youve made an apt analogy ....

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:42 PM


:: laughing ::

Oh Iva....

Merry Christmas to you too.

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 3:46 PM


Now T Red, you want me to prove that it was a doctor who said all that. Let's make a deal:

You prove to me that it WASN'T a doctor, that it was all a hoax, just an incredible staging of expelling red stuff in a bag. I invite you to contact the show "Intereconomia TV Noticias" in Spain (good luck!) and expose the fraud behind their theatrics.

If you can do that, I owe you a TREMENDOUS apology.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:34 PM
*************************
I dont have to prove a thing. I pointed out that the whole 'story' was biased and was melodrmatic sensationalistic propaganda and you dont even have any way of knowing how much of the story was true and how much was invented. Trying to pretend any aspect of that story came even remotely close to objective reporting is laughable and when someone presents a pile of biased propaganda then every sentence in it should be called into question by anyone who has any scrap of integrity.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:46 PM


"That answer could also be given when someone is thinking 'This isnt really any of your business'"

I would almost agree with you T Red, but there's the context of the statement to consider.

The journalist is posing as a potential employee of the facility, so it's the doctor's job at that point to give the journalist proper orientation of the workings of the facility. That would include patient history and backgrounds since that has a bearing on the kind of treatment/care that the patient will recieve.

If the doctor wanted to say "Well, it's really not any of your business", her choice of words would have been different. She is honest about the insider's tip with regards to the in-house psychiatrist. "Porque si" is within character for her to share.

Remember, too, there's nuances in language that non-spanish speakers can't pick up on.

Follow?

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:48 PM


:: laughing ::

Oh Iva....

Merry Christmas to you too.

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 3:46 PM
*******************************
Sesonal greetings :) and a quick *smooch* too

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:48 PM


Follow?

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:48 PM
********
Yes, its a matter of interpretation. The whole story was blatant propaganda and sensationalistic garbage from the first sentence.

Posted by: TexasRed at December 21, 2007 3:51 PM


"...you dont even have any way of knowing how much of the story was true and how much was invented."

Neither do you. Rise to the challenge, mi amiga.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 3:52 PM


Theresa's right. It is entertaining to watch a vintage TR meltdown. Grab some popcorn everyone!

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 3:54 PM


YAY!

Merry Christmas to Doug and Iva from Spin!

Posted by: Laura at December 21, 2007 4:33 PM


Jill: "If only the American media were so honest."

I consider the American MSM as co-conspirators for abortion mills.

Posted by: jasper at December 21, 2007 4:37 PM


Sssssssspin!

Posted by: Doug at December 21, 2007 4:49 PM


" Youre hatefilled hateful attitude comes as no surprise. "

you know TR when trolling its best to break out the old thesaurus once in a while and include a few non-repetitive adjectives. makes for more interesting rants.

Posted by: roger at December 21, 2007 5:26 PM


Mfoo-k...Mime mafk...ack, ptooey....sorry folks, I had to get the hooves out of my maw...OK, I'm back....

And I've got my popcorn!

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 5:27 PM


Bethany, speaking of "coal" - for all our arguments, your heart is a diamond.
Merry Christmas.

Doug, really that is just so sweet of you. I know I really don't deserve that. Thank you for being so kind.

Merry Christmas right back at you! :)

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 5:28 PM


And Hi back atcha Carrie!

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 5:31 PM


Lolz @ the diamond. Can mine be hot coals?

K I'm going to watch those video's now.

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 5:32 PM


But Roger, I think TR is just trying to eschew obfuscation...a thesaurus would totally blow that.

*wink*

Posted by: Theresa at December 21, 2007 5:36 PM


Ok I watched it. So...how are you guys going to stop it?

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 5:39 PM


Jess, do you think it should be stopped?

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 5:47 PM


Are you going to help us, Jess? We could certainly use your help.

Posted by: Bethany at December 21, 2007 5:49 PM


Jess, do you have any strategy suggestions? I love to talk strategy.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 5:57 PM


Prevention. Prevention prevention. Wait I didn't catch why they were aborting? Talk more about sex and its consequences, in depth personal talks about sex and its consquences. Maybe some prevention?

There was a radical feminist group that advocated lesbianism. But I don't think you guys want to go down that road.

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 6:03 PM


Yeah a friend of mine wanted to lose it because all of us already had sex but we're like, if you don't do it RIGHT it's horrible.

I regret losing my virginity to my former bf. I would still have lost it, just not to him. To someone else. My ex was one of those "good guys" who just kissed your a**. I need a real man.
Hm, is this still on topic?

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 6:08 PM


Prevention is a good idea. More communication is another good one.

Posted by: Carrie at December 21, 2007 6:26 PM


Jess, you want someone who isn't a "good guy"?

Posted by: prettyinpink at December 21, 2007 7:01 PM


I wrote a note on my facebook basically saying there are good guys and then the guys who are always going on about how they are so good when they're really just manipulative and spineless and try and make you feel guilty if you don't like them or don't have sex with them or whatever because they do everything for you whether you want them to or not.

Posted by: Jess at December 21, 2007 7:20 PM


ahhh. Yes, crystal clear now!

Posted by: prettyinpink at December 21, 2007 7:50 PM


Jess,
According to the doctor, they were aborting "porque si", just because in spanish.

Posted by: carder at December 21, 2007 9:24 PM


carder, esta la verdad, pero, es posible que las palabras tienen una significa diferentemente en este caso?

Pero no esta el punto. Es claro que los dos escojen abortar. Nadie debe juzgar los dos para sus razones por que abortan. Es para su mismo.


Lo siento para los errores gramaticas y de palabras. No estoy muy bien en espanol, para no poder resistir la opurtunidad para usarlo.

Posted by: Dan at December 21, 2007 10:38 PM


encuentre uno ya, diferentemente debe ser diferente

Posted by: Dan at December 21, 2007 10:40 PM


The video made me sick to my stomach and extremely sad for the state of the societies of the world that condone abortion...the U.S. being one of them.

How "telling" indeed that the nurse/Dr., whatever, didn't like looking at the dead child. The "fruit of their labor" being repugnant to themselves as well...yet they continue to do it.

Can't you just IMAGINE what the fallout would be if some TV station in this country were to air that video?

Posted by: Mike at December 22, 2007 12:58 AM


TR,

TR
*
Would we like to get some videos of the children starving to death on the streets of Brazil?
*
We would if this was a site about starving children, but as it's a site about abortion I'm not sure I see the point.
*
Probably shouldn't show any videos of giraffes eating marshmallows either, as this is not a site about giraffes or marshmallow consuption.
*
Posted by: mk at December 21, 2007 1:22 PM
**********************
You criticize me for using the word 'stupid' then you make a concerted effort to make the word necessary. Yes, children living in poverty and poor women having abortions because they cannot take care of a child are connected. But youre too desperate to condemn any woman who would consider abortion. Anything she does is wrong and youre better than she is, which makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Youre hatefilled hateful attitude comes as no surprise.

You are a strange woman...You have accused me of being hateful by calling me names and attacking me.

Let's see, I brought up giraffes and marshmallows and pointed out that this is a site about abortion...

and you call me hateful, hatefilled, arrogant and desperate...

not to mention you accuse me of calling you stupid...

yes, you are a strange, strange woman...

Posted by: mk at December 22, 2007 8:13 AM


"Youre hatefilled hateful attitude comes as no surprise."

Mk? hateful? LOL!, I've never seen her say a hateful thing.


Mike "Can't you just IMAGINE what the fallout would be if some TV station in this country were to air that video?"

Yes, I know Mike, it's tool bad our media is owned by pro-aborts.

Posted by: jasper at December 22, 2007 9:14 AM


Dan,
That was fun! I barely ever write to anyone in spanish, so I'm glad to have the opportunity as well.

True, I don't want to hastily judge the gals who laid down and had this done to their children. Definitely would want to hear their side of the story. Especially the 15 year old who was there with her dad.

It's the get-rid-of-it mentality that has suffocated our sense of decency that has me speechless at times.

Were you able to catch when he asked why the women were undergoing the procedures? If it had been one of those critical rape, incest, baby's gonna die,mom's about have a heart attack/go into a coma kind of reason, I'm confident she would have made that clear. Notice her body language? Casual, just another day at work. Her "porque si" coupled with her tone suggested to me that the women were there 'just because'.

Then, when I saw a dead fetus that looked alot like you and me just slip out of it's mom, knowing full and well it was done on purpose, even if I were prochoice, I would have asked myself:"Did it really have to come to that?"

I was able to briefly cruise the facility's website. They're open 24 hours to "provide the best service". It's interesting to compare our American "termination of pregnancy" verbage with their "voluntary interruption of pregnancy".

Slick.

Gracias por la oportunidad, Danielito. Espero que podemos continuar la conversacion.

'porque si
'

Posted by: carder at December 22, 2007 11:39 AM


Pero, es posible que los dos no quieren dice el medico porque escojen abortar? Es una pregunta muy personal, pensaria.

Oi el parte de conversacion cuando dice 'porque si', disafortunadamente no entiende mucho del video por el hablando rapidamente. Pero, es tambien posible que la significa de 'porque si' es una repuesta que representa un razon comun de clinica? No se si sea la verdad, pero es un posibilidad, no?


De nada, pero es mi que debo decir gracias por la oportunidad.

Posted by: Dan at December 22, 2007 1:16 PM


Si, es una posibilidad.

Posted by: carder at December 22, 2007 2:44 PM


There is no justification for an abortion...or shall we say for killing an innocent, helpless baby. We may not be able to stop all abortions from happening, but we certainly can speak out against this evil. We do not create life, who are we then to take life. Millions of dead babies are crying out..those who have gone through abortions are wounded and crying deep inside them despite what the prochoice want us to beleive. Yes, they should show what really goes on during abortions in the Western worlds...that should be quite interesting!

I have no hate for anyone who has had an abortion, i just feel soory for them for denying themselves the love of that child!

Posted by: Ada at December 24, 2007 2:53 AM


Ada, there doesn't have to be any "justification" for abortion. Not all pregnancies are wanted.

With your belief in some supernatural things, and your desire for (apparently all) pregnancies to continue, then for you it probably wouldn't be a good idea to have an abortion.

For other people it's not necessarily that way.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 26, 2007 12:20 PM


Ada, there doesn't have to be any "justification" for abortion. Not all pregnancies are wanted.
With your belief in some supernatural things, and your desire for (apparently all) pregnancies to continue, then for you it probably wouldn't be a good idea to have an abortion.
For other people it's not necessarily that way.

Please Doug. One could say the same (that something is necessary because it's desired) using the word "rape" instead of "abortion". Just because something is desired doesn't mean it has to be, or even SHOULD be.

Posted by: Bethany at December 26, 2007 2:17 PM


Looks like our Spanish friends are hot on the trail. From the same network that first aired the investigative report...


"...prison without bond for Dr. Carlos Morin and his wife and several employees for illegal abortions in 3 clinics in Barcelona. Accused of Illegal abortions, illicit associations, professional intrusion, and false documentation.


...this was discovered immediately after a tv investigative report on illegal abortions performed on advanced stages of pregnancies....


Dr. Morin who has previously been investigated by the Health Department, finds himself at the cusp of this illegal drama, where supposedly medical histories were falsified in order to give a "legal" appearance to the abortions that were outside of the law in exchange for important sums of money.


In addition, agents are investigating the methods medical centers use to discard fetal remains....


The Penal Code contemplates that abortion outside the legal limit would be punishable by 1 to 3 years prison sentence and prohibited from serving in a medical capacity for 1 to 6 years. The woman who submits to illegal abortions would be punished with 6 months to a year in prison or a fine of 6 to 24 months."


So.


Our biased and melodramatic, sensationalistic propaganda ended up being quite the big legal fish as far as the courts in Spain were concerned.

The above translation was brief and to the point as the text was quite detailed and involved.

Hasta la vista, Dr. Morin!

Posted by: carder at December 26, 2007 10:21 PM


"Our biased and melodramatic, sensationalistic propaganda ended up being quite the big legal fish as far as the courts in Spain were concerned."

...only if the courts in the US were that way as well. The problem is, we have a MSM who are radically pro-abortion.

This video is murder is action, theres no other way to put it.

Posted by: jasper at December 26, 2007 10:40 PM


Jasper, just IMAGINE the fury among pro-choicers if that same report were aired on Katie Couric's CBS news! Or on Oprah!

If we thought T Red had issues, whew!

Posted by: carder at December 26, 2007 10:48 PM


"Ada, there doesn't have to be any "justification" for abortion. Not all pregnancies are wanted. With your belief in some supernatural things, and your desire for (apparently all) pregnancies to continue, then for you it probably wouldn't be a good idea to have an abortion.
For other people it's not necessarily that way."

Bethany: Please Doug. One could say the same (that something is necessary because it's desired) using the word "rape" instead of "abortion". Just because something is desired doesn't mean it has to be, or even SHOULD be.

If you or somebody else wanted to overrule a woman's free will by raping her, I'd be against it. Same for overruling her free will as far as her own pregnancy.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 26, 2007 10:59 PM


And the OB/GYNs weren't the only ones implicated.

"Two psychiatrists, Pascual Javier R.M. and Fernando Javier C.V., were held in jail without bond according to the Superior tribunal of Justice of Cataluna.

The men worked for a time in the abortion clinics and are accused of signing off on forms without having visited the patients."

Posted by: carder at December 27, 2007 7:22 AM


If you or somebody else wanted to overrule a woman's free will by raping her, I'd be against it. Same for overruling her free will as far as her own pregnancy.
Doug

Please stop deliberately spinning and missing my point, Doug. That really gets irritating after a while. Honestly.

My point, and you already know this, is that your point about desire is incorrect. I'm not talking about a woman's free will here. I'm talking about your invalid point.

You constantly imply that the woman's desires are somehow infallible, and that every time you allow her to make a choice, it is her "best choice". You never question her choice, just assuming that it's "best" for her.

I'm simply explaining, yet again, that simply because something is desired, that doesn't automatically make it a good thing. Just because a pregnant woman desires not to be pregnant, doesn't make that the "best" decision for her is to abort, just because she desires it.

It is not the best decision for her any more than it is the "best thing" for a rapist to get the satisfaction of raping every time he so "desires".

Posted by: Bethany at December 27, 2007 8:41 AM


"Ada, there doesn't have to be any "justification" for abortion. Not all pregnancies are wanted. With your belief in some supernatural things, and your desire for (apparently all) pregnancies to continue, then for you it probably wouldn't be a good idea to have an abortion. For other people it's not necessarily that way."

Bethany: Please Doug. One could say the same (that something is necessary because it's desired) using the word "rape" instead of "abortion". Just because something is desired doesn't mean it has to be, or even SHOULD be.

"If you or somebody else wanted to overrule a woman's free will by raping her, I'd be against it. Same for overruling her free will as far as her own pregnancy."

Please stop deliberately spinning and missing my point, Doug. That really gets irritating after a while. Honestly.

It's not missing the point nor spinning anything. Aside from Ada's more "out there" stuff, she is talking about denying women bodily autonomy as far as continuing pregnancies or not, and you are talking about denying bodily autonomy when you mention rape.
......

My point, and you already know this, is that your point about desire is incorrect. I'm not talking about a woman's free will here. I'm talking about your invalid point. You constantly imply that the woman's desires are somehow infallible, and that every time you allow her to make a choice, it is her "best choice". You never question her choice, just assuming that it's "best" for her.

You are wrong. No, I don't say "infallible." The invalid point here is yours, Bethany, because you are pretending I've said things that I have not. It is a certainty that some women will regret their choice, either way. (There, how's that?) And case-by-case I would indeed question some people's choices. I don't say that I should be able to decide for them - I still would leave it up to them - but you bet your bippy that I'd question things.
......

I'm simply explaining, yet again, that simply because something is desired, that doesn't automatically make it a good thing. Just because a pregnant woman desires not to be pregnant, doesn't make that the "best" decision for her is to abort, just because she desires it.

I don't disagree with that. No, it's not "automatically" going to be the best thing, every time. However, we don't know ahead of time (especially in the vast majority of situations), and that's to be weighed against the goodness of letting people be free, here. Just because some people will eventually be unhappy with their picks, do we forbid all people the choice? I most certainly say no.
......

It is not the best decision for her any more than it is the "best thing" for a rapist to get the satisfaction of raping every time he so "desires".

There's really no argument about rape. However, with women being free to choose, either way, then in the vast majority of cases they do go with what they want the most in the long run, be it to continue the pregnancy or to end it.

You act all exasperated, but what, really, is your argument here? I don't say we should forbid continuing pregnancies and giving birth just because some women regret it, and likewise I don't think we should forbid having abortions just because some women regret it.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 27, 2007 10:11 AM


It's not missing the point nor spinning anything. Aside from Ada's more "out there" stuff, she is talking about denying women bodily autonomy as far as continuing pregnancies or not, and you are talking about denying bodily autonomy when you mention rape.

No, I'm talking about desires, Doug. How soon you forget, when it's about desiring to force one's will on someone you actually care about.

It is a certainty that some women will regret their choice, either way. (There, how's that?) And case-by-case I would indeed question some people's choices. I don't say that I should be able to decide for them - I still would leave it up to them - but you bet your bippy that I'd question things.

Why would you question it in any situation, Doug? Can you give me an example of an abortion situation you would question, or feel was not right? And could you tell me what the reason would be that you felt it was not right?

I don't disagree with that. No, it's not "automatically" going to be the best thing, every time. However, we don't know ahead of time (especially in the vast majority of situations), and that's to be weighed against the goodness of letting people be free, here. Just because some people will eventually be unhappy with their picks, do we forbid all people the choice? I most certainly say no.

You're always forgetting that little person in the womb, Doug. And before you say "but they're not persons", save your breath. I already know you think that. I disagree wholeheartedly.

You act all exasperated, but what, really, is your argument here? I don't say we should forbid continuing pregnancies and giving birth just because some women regret it, and likewise I don't think we should forbid having abortions just because some women regret it.

I'm sorry Doug, I am too bothered to respond to this right now. Your words are just so offensive and very hurtful to me at this time.

Posted by: Bethany at December 27, 2007 10:27 AM


"It's not missing the point nor spinning anything. Aside from Ada's more "out there" stuff, she is talking about denying women bodily autonomy as far as continuing pregnancies or not, and you are talking about denying bodily autonomy when you mention rape."

Bethany: No, I'm talking about desires, Doug. How soon you forget, when it's about desiring to force one's will on someone you actually care about.

Well, that's certainly a different deal than bodily autonomy. I didn't "forget" anything, there, we just were on a different subject. On desire - you more want the unborn lives to continue, I more want women to be free to choose what they want the most.
......

"I don't disagree with that. No, it's not "automatically" going to be the best thing, every time. However, we don't know ahead of time (especially in the vast majority of situations), and that's to be weighed against the goodness of letting people be free, here. Just because some people will eventually be unhappy with their picks, do we forbid all people the choice? I most certainly say no."

You're always forgetting that little person in the womb, Doug. And before you say "but they're not persons", save your breath. I already know you think that. I disagree wholeheartedly.

No, I'm not forgetting anything. Your point was that the choice of ending a pregnancy might be seen as wrong, eventually. I'm not arguing with that one.
......

"You act all exasperated, but what, really, is your argument here? I don't say we should forbid continuing pregnancies and giving birth just because some women regret it, and likewise I don't think we should forbid having abortions just because some women regret it."

I'm sorry Doug, I am too bothered to respond to this right now. Your words are just so offensive and very hurtful to me at this time.

Okay, Bethany. I did take one thing and I'll put it in a separate post.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 27, 2007 10:52 AM


"It is a certainty that some women will regret their choice, either way. (There, how's that?) And case-by-case I would indeed question some people's choices. I don't say that I should be able to decide for them - I still would leave it up to them - but you bet your bippy that I'd question things."

Bethany: Why would you question it in any situation, Doug? Can you give me an example of an abortion situation you would question, or feel was not right? And could you tell me what the reason would be that you felt it was not right?

I would question it if I felt strongly that it really was not right for them. You, for example - as much as I know you, even just from this message board, if you became pregnant and said that such-and-such circumstance was making you feel like it might be best to have an abortion, then I would think that in the long run you would end up regretting it enough that it would be the wrong choice for you.

Likewise, looking at pregnant girls, as the age gets younger and younger then my feelings that continuing a pregnancy would probably be wrong increase, even if the girl "wants a baby."

I am not saying that you shouldn't be able to choose, nor that all 12 year olds, for example, shouldn't be allowed to, but there are indeed spcific cases where I'd have strong feelings that it'd really be best to go one way or another.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at December 27, 2007 10:59 AM


How could a woman DO this?

Posted by: heather at December 29, 2007 1:26 PM