So much for sincerity -- when you cannot write the message yourself and need to window-dress the picture.

She made a very good point. That clinic will do more to prevent unwanted pregnancies in a single day than those protesters will do in a lifetime.

Speakng of unwanted pregnancies, I ran into this really interesting article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=495495&in_page_id=1879

Cecile said, "here I am on the eve of another holiday, and I'm taking STOCK.

Why, Cecile...no pun inteded, I'm sure!

Happy Midnight and Happy Turkey Day, everybody.

Gobble, gobble, Doug!!! (not midnight here, yet, though!) What are you thankful for this Thanksgiving day?

I'm thankful for all of you!!! Yes, even the PCer's. Getting involved in the pro-life movement has healed a lot of the demons I have had to struggle with over the years. I am the kind of person who beats themself up over every bad decision they ever made, and all of you out there speaking up for life make me so proud that I stood up as well. I stood up for my daughter's right to live even when it wouldn't have been convenient for me, and I stand up now with all of you to help give the unborn a voice that WILL be heard!

Laura, you're not in the Eastern Time Zone, but in like 8 more minutes you can dig into some serious turkey if you've a mind to, and if it's handy. You're behind the times but not all that far... heh heh heh.

ha, ha, ha, Doug...
:)

healed a lot of the demons I have had to struggle with over the years. I am the kind of person who beats themself up over every bad decision they ever made, and all of you out there speaking up for life make me so proud that I stood up as well.

Well that's great, Elizabeth. You know, pro-choicers have nothing against any of that - you healing or voicing your opinion. Hope not, anyway.

Tell you what - I get a "warm" feeling reading your posts. I have no doubt you are in a "better place" now and a "good place."

I've got 21 nieces and nephews. No Gabriellas, though there is an Isabella. Isabella Marie, in fact, plus there's a Lauren Marie, a Jessica Rachel, an Emily Nicole, Victoria Faith, Jennica Weiss, and a lot of boys.

And boys can be so bad and devilish.... Still - to paraphrase an old saying, "Hell has no fury like a 12 pr 13 year old girl....:'

Doug

Laura, heck, you're probably on the west coast and it's early yet - while we stalwarts are heading for 2 a.m. now... Oops that's right - Illinois. Forgot...

What am I thankful for? Honestly - "everything."

I think I own my failures (and they are many) but I'll be 49 in March and there is peace. I have a great family, probably better than I deserve, and a truly great wife, and her family is also better than I deserve.

I was gonna make a smart-ass reply about Tanqueray, Absolut, Captain Morgan, etc., but the real truth is that I'm also thankful for the people right here - Jill - who provides a lot of fascinating topics not to mention a ton of bandwidth for big mouths like me.

I've argued abortion for over eleven years, and the people here are by far the best pro-life debaters. No other place is even close, IMO.

I tend to take pro-choicers for granted, but I've known "non-AB" Laura for a long time, and again I've gotta give a shout-out to her. Erin, Leah, Sally, Midnite, Rae, Hal, Ray, Carol, etc. - can't remember all (and I'm sorry for that) - there you go.

There are lots of cool pro-lifers here, IMO even among the ones who really hate some of the things I say.

So - you - AB Laura, MK, Bethany, Hippie, newcomer Elizabeth, Carder (heh - surprise, eh?), Jacqueline, John McDonnell, PIP (PrettyInPink), Heather, Kristen, Carrie, Mary, and there are more but again I'm sorry - just can't remember. I've had a few glasses of wine tonight and I'm thankful for the vinters who give us fine chardonnays, pinot noirs, chiantis, etc. okay just kidding - you're all unique people and to some extent I've gotten to know you and thus like you.

Doug

I keep reading the letter above over & over again, and just can't help seeing the underlying message...I'll share:

WARNING: what you are about to read has been modified from it's original ...statements in parenthesis are added and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the original author (whoever that may be):

Dear Pro-aborts,

Here I am on the eve of another holiday, (that millions of babies will never see), and I’m taking stock (embryonic tissue, cells, etc.).

I know (at least that’s what my PR firm wants me to believe) – that’s what we do, right (or wrong, whatever)? We wait for the holidays (like Halloween!), or something like them (abortion days at PP), to say what we ought to say all along. (suckers!)

So, here’s what I need (because we’re dying here!) to say: Thank you. (keep the abortions coming….I really, really thank you!)

I’m thinking (I think) about the past few months, (it’s kind of a blur after all of those parties), when I and my colleagues (fellow blood-stained partners in crime) at Planned Parenthood (Barren hood) have turned to you (or on you) again and again for action, ($$$), support ($$$) kind words ($$$), more ($$$) – and always, you are there (like a fool and his $$$).

I’m also thinking (yes, PR firm, I am!) about my travels (vacations, thanks to your $$$) each day, (well, I have to travel to and fro between vacations, you know!), when I meet so many (3 or 4) people who feel such solidarity with Planned Parenthood (I have to actually MEET the abortionist you’re paying for!) and the women (young, young women…OK., girls, whose tiny babies) we serve (on a metal plate, glass jar, whatever). I admit that it still surprises me, (that we can still get away with this) and humbles me, too. (What does humble mean, again? Whatever, it makes me sound sincere. wait..what does sincere mean again?)

I’m headed home to spend (more $$$) time with (on) my family for the next few days. (not many abortions around the holidays…I mean, who would want to think of having a dreadful abortion on such an otherwise happy day!) Please know this: (because I sure as anything don’t) In my heart (yes, that ice-cold stone in my chest), I am also spending ($$$!) the holidays with you (I’ll be concocting more ways to get more $$$ out of you suckers), my Planned Parenthood family. (oh gosh, did I just call them my family? I need another raise!). Thank you for that. (allowing me, once again, to take more $$$ from you!). My warmest wishes (your $$$ makes me warm & fuzzy!) for you and yours (oh, wait! We killed the “yours” part) during the holidays. (what holiday is it again?)

Sincerely, (I desperately need a raise)

Cecile Richards
President and Founder of Hair club for Men
(It’s Planned Parenthood Federation of America – This IS my own hair!)

Doug,
I like it when you drink....you say the kindest things. All kidding aside, I've had a blast "talking" to you, also. I'm glad you're thankful for your family (& extended one, too!) It's nice to see that you are a humble man...definately deserving of the family that you have...don't sell yourself short!

President and Founder of Hair club for Men

If a person was really and totally self-servingly for the "Hair Club for Men," and profits there then it's reasonable to assume they'd be for more people, period, and thus pro-life, because, after all, more people means more bald heads over time.

My, there was a creative burst at 1:00a this morning. Doug, nice post. I'm going to copy it, if you don't mind, to a new Thanksgiving "thanks" post to get conversation going. And AB Laura, very good!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. I am thankful for my family,the great school my son is in, and our continued good health. I am also thankful for the orange spice pumpkin pie that I baked last night(yum).

AB Laura,

And you were worried that I would have a problem with your posts...the only problem is have is that I wished I'D written that one...lol.

Excellent Job.

Arachnophilia,

Doug, take note. A good reason for more people has now been given to you from Arachnophilia. We need more bald heads. Excellent!

Laura's article {Toni aborted her pregnancy to help save the planet?] That's a new one. Has she ever had a psychiatric evaluation?

Why weren't these women signing up for tubal ligations? That would have been a better choice.

PL laura, I like that letter from Cecile da Evil.

on the video...it's really amazing that these people think they're doing something good, how twisted.. they can't be real Christians, there's no way.

Doug, we don't have any snow here today. Normally we do. Just thought I'd let you know. BTW, I'm glad you like us:] You've been PC for 11 years? Stick around. That'll change. As you say...Best, Heather

hi jasper. AB Laura, look at the spider post reply ..when you get a second.

Here's a thought...This just goes to show you what a bunch of selfish liars these women in Laura's article are. If you were really concerned about the planet being overpopulated, why wouldn't you kill yourself? Not that I would want her to, but she's not very worried about herself taking up the planet's space. Nice try. Also, was she concerned about the planet when she was making the baby?

Nope. Toni is saying, ME, ME, ME! My life! Mine!

Jill,
Thanks...I just can't stand that "woman".

Heather,
Just looked at your reply to the spider post. LOL...that's my hell, too! 3

Jasper,
I wish I would have thought of that name for Cecile...much more fitting!!!

HAPPY TURKEY DAY!!!

Hi All,

Happy thanksgiving! God-bless.

Nope. Toni is saying, ME, ME, ME! My life! Mine!

Posted by: heather at November 22, 2007 9:29 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's right!
The decision to have a child is every bit as selfish as the decision not to have one.
It's all about "I, ME, MINE" and what I want for MY life.

I don't buy it. It's just another lame excuse to abort.

Hello!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Just something I noticed when I watched the video. If you roll the mouse over the bottom ~20% of the frame, there will be a horizontal scroll of other videos, some about Cecile Richards and others some other bizarre stuff.

Don't know if it's a Youtube feature, some links that were embedded in the video, or just some new feature of RealPlayer 11 (which seems to have some new flash / youtube hooks). Anyway, there were two there related to Proposition 85 in California back in 2006. In particular, I found these interesting :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grr6Dd8Ew7E

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRNpgx1GLjQ

I noted how she claims that children will resort to back-alley abortions, and attempted self-induced abortions if parental notification is passed. Even in liberal California, Proposition 85 got healthy support from voters, but not enough to pass (it lost by 354,000 votes out of ~8M votes cast on the issue, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_85_(2006) ).

Are there any statistics on self-induced abortion ? Are there any documented cases of illegal "back alley" abortions ? This is something that Bonnie Grabenhofer mentioned in one of her comments at one of the Aurora City Council meetings. It would be great if there was some reference to refute this to the council.

In addition, in one of the videos Cecile dismisses Judicial Bypass. So I guess she would advocate that it's better to send the minor child back to the abusive home or relationship, and sweep it all under the rug and let the child continue to be abused.

very nice post AB Laura. Wonder how PP missed the baby in the staff picture. Maybe she's not even really pregnant.
Happy Thanksgiving to all you American's. You have a wonderful country!

It looked that way to me also.

I don't buy it. It's just another lame excuse to abort.

Posted by: heather at November 22, 2007 10:40 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really?
What was your lame excuse for having a baby?

To do my part to help populate the planet. Since Toni aborted, I like had to like make up for that.

@Frank

How do expect there to be stats on "self-induced and back alley" abortions? Documented individual cases of back alley abortion do exist- do your own Internet research - there are some recent ones because surgical repair was needed for the damage or subsequent infection.

As for the idea that the minor can go to a judge or "official," the possibility that they can report abuse is already there-and it's not utilized in these cases. Try to remember what it was like to be a teen - how competent are most teens at dealing with adult figures and authority - even when seeking help? now add the guilt (used by the abuser) of being pregnant (reinforced by many a religious mindset)-and then imagine a teen dealing with typically cold and indifferent bureaucrats - Cecile Richards like most pro-choicers is a realist in recognizing the problems with judicial bypass.

Frank, thank you for those posts. Cecile did the same thing she always does. She never answers any questions. She dances around them. So, I suppose it's better to keep your abortions secret. If abortion is just a healthcare need, why do we need to keep it a secret?

pylosopher, what if the teen begins to experience complications after her legal abortion? What if she's 15 and she's pregnant from a 22 year old man? Do you agree that these things should be kept secret? PP won't report sex abuse of minors. Do you agree with that?

Phylosopher wrote :

@Frank

How do expect there to be stats on "self-induced and back alley" abortions? Documented individual cases of back alley abortion do exist- do your own Internet research - there are some recent ones because surgical repair was needed for the damage or subsequent infection.

Phylosopher -- I didn't ask for a lecture, I asked for the statistics that back up Cecile's claim that Parental Notice leads to "Back Alley" abortion. In fact, all of the items that came up when I googled on "back alley abortion statistics" are all pro-life links (except for the Wikipedia link, see below); there is no evidence to back up Cecile's position. The first neutral link that comes up ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion ) indicates the opposite. In the US, there appear to be no statistics to back this up at all. In addition, it also indicates that even in other countries where abortion is illegal, most are performed by physicians that should know what they are doing, and few lead to complications and/or death, maim, etc.

A similar search on just "back alley abortion death" yields similar refuting websites, and finally on page 2 has a link to a socialist website that refers to only two cases in 40 years :

Rosie Jimenez (sometime near 1978 ?)
Becky Bell - recently in Indiana

So that's what all this furor is about ? 1 case in Indiana ? That is the irrefutable proof that we shouldn't have Parental Notice nationwide ? What about the legal abortions performed by Planned Parenthood without Parental Notice that lead to complications and death ? There are a lot more than one. For a quick read on something I did find, check this one out :

http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1999/0499jm.htm

In our case in the US, all Parental Notice requires is that for minor children the parents are informed.

Think about the logic of your argument; the child / teen has gotten themselves involved in over their head (a sexual relationship) through a bad decision. So it's okay to make another bad decision instead of getting needed counseling, or potentially reporting an abusive relationship to the authorities ? This defies reason.

Also note that parental notice does NOTHING for those over 18, or those under 18 that get abortion with Parental Notice.

So I don't understand what the furor over Parental Notice is about. Parental Notice is nothing more than assuring the followup care that is needed is obtained.

So choicers, please cite statistics that back up your position that parental notice leads directly to self-induced or illegal abortions.

This is topical and timely considering that the Aurora City Council is going to discuss a resolution on Parental Notice (next Tuesday) that will be sent on to the IL legislature, and reportedly Naperville City Council is also considering a similar resolution.

@Heather

A guess is that most private ob/gyn docs, and adoption or abortion centers and government agencies don't report or ask either - it is usually not reported because if it were, many teens would avoid getting prenatal care until far into the pregnancy or not at all - a very dangerous option for mother or child.

It is not required to have a father's name (aka unknown) on the birth certificate in at least some states. So, in the interest of fairness, all need to be changed.

Sexual abuse is NEVER acceptable. I must also question the one who condones it.

I must also question someone who doesn't report it.

That is SO true!

That's why I hang out in front of the local CPC and tell young girls arriving that if their boyfriend is over 18, the ladies inside are going to send him to prison.
I do this as a community service.

Oh good. I'm glad to see you're doing your part.

Laura,
that's sick...I didn't realize that you took such a liking to child predators. Does it also upset you during "To Catch a Predator" as those guys are caught?

Laura,

I read the article you linked about the woman who didn't want children. I found it pretty disgusting and condescending that she couldn't get sterilized when she asked. I think anyone who will sign the usual paperwork for surgery should be able to get sterilized. It is ridiculous to deny women a reasonable surgery.

I think a point that is beyond the scope of the article is the fact that it is our lifestyle more than the number of people that so endangers the planet. I agree that the planet would be hard pressed to support everyone in the ultra wasteful western style. However, by changing to a greener lifestyle many could live better and it really isn't misery to use reusable products instead of disposable etc. We would help the planet by using less nasty chemicals. They aren't as necessary as the chemical companies would have us believe. I have also seen figures that show that most of the world's crops go to feed livestock, not people, so by eating more plant foods, you make a big impact.

As for the woman in the article, her veg. diet does ten times more to help the planet than having no kids.

As for the woman in the article, her veg. diet does ten times more to help the planet than having no kids.

Hippie, I have no kids but I sure do love me a good old steak once in a while. Or two.
.......

I agree that the planet would be hard pressed to support everyone in the ultra wasteful western style. However, by changing to a greener lifestyle many could live better and it really isn't misery to use reusable products instead of disposable etc. We would help the planet by using less nasty chemicals. They aren't as necessary as the chemical companies would have us believe. I have also seen figures that show that most of the world's crops go to feed livestock, not people, so by eating more plant foods, you make a big impact.

You're right on about meat - it takes VASTLY more acreage to feed livestock and/or grow the grain to feed them than would be required to just grow food for people.

Our consumption is amazing. With less than 5% (less than 4.6%, actually) of world population, the US uses 40% of world resources.

So, were the whole world to consume as we (Americans) do, the world population would have to drop by almost 89%.

Or, was our consumption to get cut in half, no mean thing, roughly 77% of the world's people would still have to say bye-bye for the rest to match us.

In reality of course no such thing is going to happen, barring mega-economic bad times (which I don't rule out). Also, China and India alone have over 3 billion people who are only now really developing middle claseses and beginning to consume as we do, appliances, roads, vehicles, energy, etc.

So, what's going to happen? Well, the bull market in commodiites continues, again barring economic depression, and perhaps we will eventually see a damper put on population increase - far greater forces are at work that what we argue about in the abortion debate.

Doug

If you heard your neighbor abusing her child, would you report it to authorities, or would you ignore it? Same applies to abortion clinics.

I'm thankful for all of you!!! Yes, even the PCer's. Getting involved in the pro-life movement has healed a lot of the demons I have had to struggle with over the years. I am the kind of person who beats themself up over every bad decision they ever made, and all of you out there speaking up for life make me so proud that I stood up as well. I stood up for my daughter's right to live even when it wouldn't have been convenient for me, and I stand up now with all of you to help give the unborn a voice that WILL be heard!

Posted by: Elizabeth at November 21, 2007 11:36 PM
................................................................................

Are you saying that gestating your daughter was a bad decision? I'm not sure what you are saying was your bad decision relating to abortion.

If you heard your neighbor abusing her child, would you report it to authorities, or would you ignore it? Same applies to abortion clinics.

Posted by: heather at November 24, 2007 11:12 AM
........................................

Heather, confusing physical abuse with statutory law does nothing to promote your cause. It makes you look dishonest.
As Laura has asked: how efficient are ministers, priests and CPC workers at detecting actual physical abuse let alone statutory law violations and how many such cases have these groups reported to authorities?

Sally said,
"Heather, confusing physical abuse with statutory law does nothing to promote your cause. It makes you look dishonest."

Sexual abuse is physical, Sally! But I think what Heather was saying is that ignoring it when you know that a child is being abused is just plain unacceptable, which holds true to the neighbor or the abortion clinic.

Come on, we're talking about a so-called "health clinic" who is supposedly SO concerned about women's healthcare. Emotional, too, right? Or are you saying that abortion clinics shouldn't care about the emotional or physical health of their clients?

Say a 15-year waltzes in to an abortion clinic to get an abortion because she was gang-raped and torn up beyond belief. You don't think it's the abortion clinic's responsibility to notify authorities? Or is it just the "choice" of the clinic whether or not to do so?

Sally said,
"Heather, confusing physical abuse with statutory law does nothing to promote your cause. It makes you look dishonest."

Sexual abuse is physical, Sally! But I think what Heather was saying is that ignoring it when you know that a child is being abused is just plain unacceptable, which holds true to the neighbor or the abortion clinic.

Come on, we're talking about a so-called "health clinic" who is supposedly SO concerned about women's healthcare. Emotional, too, right? Or are you saying that abortion clinics shouldn't care about the emotional or physical health of their clients?

Say a 15-year waltzes in to an abortion clinic to get an abortion because she was gang-raped and torn up beyond belief. You don't think it's the abortion clinic's responsibility to notify authorities? Or is it just the "choice" of the clinic whether or not to do so?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 6:46 PM
.............................................

Laura, that's foolish. PP is not an emergency hospital. Clinics of any kind do not do emergency treatment. Hospitals have issues doing so. Exactly where do you think that a gang raped 15 year old is going to get the care you believe they should have? A CPC? A church? Tell me where Laura.

Sally,
I wasn't talking about emergency treatment. The hypothetical girl went to an abortion clinic to get an abortion....she hid her injuries due to shame. Girls can be raped, or gang-raped and hide it. However, when the clinic looks at her, they can certainly tell if she was injured by "sex". My point, that you've missed again, is that an abortion clinic needs to report this as would a person who knew that their neighbor was abusing a child.
So, please, answer my question:
Do you think it's the abortion clinic's responsibility to notify authorities? Or is it just the "choice" of the clinic whether or not to do so?

Sally, don't you realize that some abortion patients are there due to rape and incest. A minor has probably been instructed NOT to report abuse by her predator. Do you think it's okay for an AB clinic to conceal this? I sure don't.

Heather,
OH NO!!! Your previous post!!!! I must change my name AGAIN!!!! Any grand ideas???

(looks like I'm having an "identity crisis", here!

Oh, hi there , Laura. How about Laura4Life? I used Heather4Life when there were 2 of us here:]

I like, but I can't...spiders, Heather....spiders!!!

LOL! Okay. Back to the drawing board:]

Sally said,
"Heather, confusing physical abuse with statutory law does nothing to promote your cause. It makes you look dishonest."

Sexual abuse is physical, Sally! But I think what Heather was saying is that ignoring it when you know that a child is being abused is just plain unacceptable, which holds true to the neighbor or the abortion clinic.

Come on, we're talking about a so-called "health clinic" who is supposedly SO concerned about women's healthcare. Emotional, too, right? Or are you saying that abortion clinics shouldn't care about the emotional or physical health of their clients?

Say a 15-year waltzes in to an abortion clinic to get an abortion because she was gang-raped and torn up beyond belief. You don't think it's the abortion clinic's responsibility to notify authorities? Or is it just the "choice" of the clinic whether or not to do so?

Posted by: AB Laura at November 25, 2007 6:46 PM

Consenting to sex under the age of consent is not abuse Laura. That is what statutory rape is. Isn't that really what you are accusing PP of not 'reporting'?

Now, are you asking whether or not a victim should be forced to report a crime? Or are you asking if medical personnel should be legally bound to violate patient confindentiality? How would anyone know that she had been raped unless she confided in them? I really don't get what you are asking.

Sally,
I wasn't talking about emergency treatment. The hypothetical girl went to an abortion clinic to get an abortion....she hid her injuries due to shame. Girls can be raped, or gang-raped and hide it. However, when the clinic looks at her, they can certainly tell if she was injured by "sex". My point, that you've missed again, is that an abortion clinic needs to report this as would a person who knew that their neighbor was abusing a child.
So, please, answer my question:
Do you think it's the abortion clinic's responsibility to notify authorities? Or is it just the "choice" of the clinic whether or not to do so?
Posted by: AB Laura at November 26, 2007 7:19 AM
.................................................

Laura, being raped does not necessarily cause any kind of physical evidence. There are 15 year old hookers willing to engage in rough sex. Are you really suggesting that medical personnel need to be mind readers or detectives?
How would a neighbor know that a child was being abused unless they witnessed it? Why would PP report something that they have no evidence of unless the girl confided in them and wanted them to report her rape?

Sally, don't you realize that some abortion patients are there due to rape and incest. A minor has probably been instructed NOT to report abuse by her predator. Do you think it's okay for an AB clinic to conceal this? I sure don't.

Posted by: heather at November 26, 2007 8:04 PM
...................................................................

Heather, exactly how would PP conceal something they have no knowledge of? Do you expect them to assume that every under 18 year old that walks through the door has been raped? That's goofy Heather.

Sally, you're goofy.