Obama caught on tape arguing against giving medical attention to aborted babies

The IL General Assembly destroys audiotapes of its floor debates after transcripts have been written. That is why there is precious little audio, if any, of Barack Obama as state senator making any speeches.

But a pro-life sleuth has found a short audio clip on the Chicago Tribune website of Obama arguing on the IL Senate floor on April 4, 2002, against Senate Bill B1663, a companion bill to the Born Alive Infants Protection Act that would have required an abortionist to call a second physician to assess a baby aborted alive.

Here is the Senate transcript to ensure the comment is heard in context....

obama floor speech 2.jpg

Obama opposed SB1663 arguing he had "confidence" that the abortionist - who was invested in attempting to kill the child pre-delivery - would not mind revealing his or her botch by calling a 2nd physician to ensure the child was given proper medical attention and revived if possible.

Obama thought it remarkable to suspect an abortionist of having a subjective medical opinion about his new second patient. It didn't occur to Obama that the abortionist might also be invested in seeing the baby dead to preclude malpractice lawsuits down the road if the baby were found not to have pre-birth diagnosed defects, an overriding reason for these late-term induced labor abortions.

But Obama's most telling statement from the clip was to say this bill "is really designed simply to burden the original decision of the woman and the physician to induce labor and perform an abortion."

In other words, if a baby were to survive his or her abortion, the death plan marked out for this child should be carried out nonetheless.

Guy Benson tracked down the pro-life sleuth, who will be interviewed with me on the Sandy Rios show this afternoon at 3:20p CST.

Michelle Malkin is also covering this story, as is The Weekly Standard blog, and RedState.com.

Hotair.com is asking a great poll question, "Did Barack Obama protect infanticide in Illinois?"


Comments:

It didn't occur to Obama that the abortionist might also be invested in seeing the baby dead to preclude malpractice lawsuits down the road if the baby were found not to have pre-birth diagnosed defects, an overriding reason for these late-term induced labor abortions.
or
the concern of malpractice if the baby survives and has a disability based on the botched abortion....
death of the baby is preferred either way...

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 2:33 PM


Apparently Obama hasn't heard of abortionist William Waddell, who strangled a born alive survivor of one of his attempted abortions with his bare hands. http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/11/history-william-waddill-and-killing-of.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919649,00.html http://abortionviolence.com/MURDERS.HTM http://www.physiciansforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1164

Posted by: Doyle at August 21, 2008 2:40 PM


And just when you thought you'd seen it all...

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 21, 2008 2:50 PM


Thanks for the transcript.

Posted by: Wayne at August 21, 2008 2:54 PM


That is sooo sad Doyle! I can't believe that guy got away with it!

Posted by: becky at August 21, 2008 3:21 PM


Can I ever come to this blog and NOT cry?? nope
Wow that sweet little baby girl was a fighter! Wish SOMEONE would have stepped in and saved her life!

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 3:25 PM


Jill is on WYLL live right now.

Go to the next (previous entry) to get the
URL link to listen live online.

Or in Chicago area, tune to 1160 AM.

Posted by: Opinionated at August 21, 2008 3:30 PM


Correction: the URL for the Sandy Rios Show is on this entry, above.

Here it is: http://wyll.com/LocalHosts/3/

Posted by: Opinionated at August 21, 2008 3:33 PM


So, what should we talk about today?

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 3:38 PM


Oh,I dunno, Hal. The weather? :)

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 3:52 PM


Hal, try Doyle's post - might give you some reading material.....

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 3:53 PM


Hal,

Do you not think that birth constitutes a possible complete solution to uphold all the rights involved when considering the physical implications of the fetus on the mother?

Keep in mind that neither are at fault in their particular scenario. Also keep in mind that the other alternative is abortion which still harms the mother to a degree and completely kills the fetus. Birth, albeit a messy solution, has the best chance to prevent long term damage to either party.

What do you think? Do you still think abortion is the solution if the fetus has all the rights of a human child?

Posted by: Oliver at August 21, 2008 4:02 PM


Oliver,

Don't expect a reasoned response from Hal other than, "It's a woman's right to choose."

Posted by: Opinionated at August 21, 2008 4:06 PM


Oliver,
You are going to get the answer that it is the "women's right to choose" from Hal, just like all the other pro-choice people!

Posted by: becky at August 21, 2008 4:10 PM


Hey Im bored today. Thought Id give it a try. You never know. SoMG seems to be getting his act together and actually responding a bit. Doug even gave it a shot.

Posted by: Oliver at August 21, 2008 4:12 PM


Oliver, I think the decision whether to terminate a pregnancy should be made only by the pregnant woman. I'm very uncomfortable for practical and philosophical reasons allowing Big Government have any role in that decision. If peole want to urge the pregnant woman to have the child I have no objection. If people want to prohibit the pregnant woman from having an abortion, I have strong objection. I don't think a fetus "has all the rights of a human child." Sorry, I just don't. I would propose a compromise that allows abortion on demand for first trimester and forbits abortion for any reason in third trimester. We can negotiate the rules for the second trimester.

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 4:13 PM


Hal,
You stated that the decision should be only made by the mother. What do you say to women whose families and boyfriends force them into abortion.
Don't say this doesn't happen because we both know it does.

Posted by: Sandy at August 21, 2008 4:17 PM


"What do you say to women whose families and boyfriends force them into abortion."

They should seek help from the police or a woman's shelter.

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 4:19 PM


So Obama believes that choice doesn't end when the pregnancy does.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 21, 2008 4:26 PM


Hal @ 4:19 PM

The police usually arrive after the husband or boyfriend is done aborting the woman and child together.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at August 21, 2008 4:28 PM


Sandy,

Forget about boyfriends/family coercing...how bout grandparents and fathers having no say in whether their grandchild/son/daughter lives. Where are the fathers rights in all of this. I mean if you're going to treat the baby like property, then shouldn't the father have rights to his property???

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2008 4:33 PM


Hal,

"I don't think a fetus "has all the rights of a human child." Sorry, I just don't."

Why? You cant throw out and say something does not have rights just because you feel like it. What if your "feeling" is incorrect and you have been hurting millions? Give me something to back it up. This is akin to saying "well I just dont think slaves have any rights. Sorry"

You need to justify that statement or lose sleep over the possible consequences associated with it.

"I would propose a compromise that allows abortion on demand for first trimester and forbits abortion for any reason in third trimester. We can negotiate the rules for the second trimester."

If you dont think the fetus has the rights of a human child why stop at the second trimester? Why stop at the third? Why stop afterward? Oh wait...because then it is a child, randomly by being outside the mother....you have some explaining to do.

I take no issue with someone who has some justification for abortion, but if you support the notion because you "feel" it is okay, you are a monster. In plain English you are a monster.

Hopefully you arent though...

Looking forward to your stance!

Posted by: Oliver at August 21, 2008 4:37 PM


Hey MK!
Absolutely. Our society has begged men to be more in tune with their children and be more involved in raising their families.

What rights do they have to their unborn child's fate?
None.

Posted by: Sandy at August 21, 2008 4:38 PM


"You need to justify that statement or lose sleep over the possible consequences associated with it."

No, and no.

Posted by: hal at August 21, 2008 4:50 PM


Hal, in regards to your question, I think we should talk about Obama's latest position in all this madness: The ability for a women and doctor to perform a fourth trimester abortion.

Posted by: Charles at August 21, 2008 4:52 PM


If you dont think the fetus has the rights of a human child why stop at the second trimester? Why stop at the third? Why stop afterward?"

Just tying to find common ground.

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 4:52 PM


Hey this is Oliver's wife, he's at work now so won't be able to respond until later tonight.

As much as I'd like to respond, I'll hold off so I don't "muddy the waters" lol.

Posted by: Lauren at August 21, 2008 5:06 PM


Wow, so the woman needs to seek the help of the police or a shelter....hmmmm...here I am, a woman who did that very thing. I am not in the minority when I say, it usually doesn't work. I was raped. Long before (nearly a year) I went to the police in my home town several times...filing incident reports, seeking restraining orders against a man who (according to the officers I spoke with) "was no real threat" "he's only leaving flowers or poems" "so he has driven by your house a few times or sat outside your office, has he harmed or threatened you?"

Nearly a year later? yep,raped.( i personally considered it harmful) The man who posed "no real threat" impregnated me and guess where I went.... the clinic. Did I bother to go to the police? No. Did I want my child? Yes.

I did contact the man, on his job...I told him I was pg. His grandfather who is a man of contacts and means...had his attorney write me a letter, telling me if I did not want to lose custody of this child, I best strongly consider termination...the story continues on and finally I sought termination. I also signed a stupid legal agreement not to tell the man's name...or else I would likely regret the social ramifications that would follow me.(that's pretty much a quote from the letter sent by my rapist's attorney)...welcome to small town society, eh?

I'm digressing aren't I? I see shallow and uninformed comments here and I just fume...the point is...Obama lied....he has been exposed...children who are born even in induced abortions SHOULD have the same Constitutional Rights as anyone who posts here...period.

UGH...we surely do get tacky in here don't we?

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 5:09 PM


Hal can't think a fetus has any rights because he put out a contract on two of his own. Had they ripped apart by a person calling themselves a doctor.
If he thought they had any value -- or that other beings had any value he wouldn't have done that. He is a shill for PP.

No point in arguing or reasoning with an admitted murderer. It is near impossible to wash those blood spots off, you know.

Posted by: LB at August 21, 2008 5:09 PM


Oliver is you husband? Oh wow, i didn't know that. Did other people know this? Man, I'm so out of the loop...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 21, 2008 5:11 PM


And here's an astounding example of Obama's convoluted theology that replaces the church with the government by grossly quoting scripture out of context.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4FCNKwHRCQM

Posted by: HisMan at August 21, 2008 5:11 PM


Goldwater: "Extremism for the sake of liberty is no vice."

Obama: Infanticide for the sake of sex without consequence is uh... um... nice.

Posted by: Arlen Williams at August 21, 2008 5:11 PM


Somebody,

:hugs: I know you haven't been here long, but I hope you know that many people here are GREAT to talk to if you ever need a shoulder to lean on. I like to think I'm one of them. I'm sorry for all that happened to you with being stalked, raped, and having an abortion as a result. I pray that you will be able to heal with time. I'm glad you're here.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 21, 2008 5:18 PM


Bobby, I think some people might remember that he is, but he hasn't posted her in quite a while so I'm sure some forgot.

I'm just glad we agree on abortion...I mean, could you imagine *those* arugments if we didn't lol!

Posted by: Lauren at August 21, 2008 5:19 PM


I'd say ya'll more than just "agree" on abortion. It also seems to be on the same level of importance to ya'll.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at August 21, 2008 5:25 PM


Hey, I hope I don't offend anyone. I do want to say that no matter how much we disagree on a given topic, it is terribly vicious to call Hal a murderer. Really. I am a murderer too. I am post abortive. I own up to my personal accountability. My abortion changed my stance...but it didn't change Hal's... ok...maybe it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't. It is not our call, right? However, as much as anyone tries to inflame another...must we really stoop to the whole "murder contract" kind of kick in the gut? It just seems to personal. None of us should do that. It's just wrong.

Y'all actually have me hurting for someone you consider on the opposite side. :-(

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 5:29 PM


As supporters once yelled to Harry Truman, "Give 'em h***!............ Jill! You're doing a fantastic job on this issue! :-D

Posted by: Doyle at August 21, 2008 5:33 PM


Oh Elizabeth...thank you very much. I am fine. It was some time back. you are very kind.yes, i am new here, sort of. A few years ago, I lurked around the site just "listening" and I still do. I am only posting a bit right now because all of this Obama hoopla in the media. The BAIPA is something I have always felt very strongly about...so naturally, I knew where to find all the latest on the subject, right? :u) Again, you are soooo sweet and your comfort and empathy are uber appreciated by me!!

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 5:43 PM


just a nobody:

Welcome, and yes, in the spirit of Jesus we should pray for those who do not agree with us, not call them names. Though it is sometimes hard to resist.

Posted by: Andy at August 21, 2008 5:46 PM


just a nobody,
First you are not "Just a nobody"!
I am so sorry that you went through what you did. Where were the feminists who pushed all the crap about choice?, to help you? I guess, the same place they are when it comes to sex selection abortion in the Third world and so forth...

I hope you get the help you need so that you can heal from your experiences. If you don't mind, I will keep you in my prayers.

I did contact the man, on his job...I told him I was pg. His grandfather who is a man of contacts and means...had his attorney write me a letter, telling me if I did not want to lose custody of this child, I best strongly consider termination...the story continues on and finally I sought termination.

Yeah, choice. Right.
The much flaunted choice is usually anything but:
What about the woman who doesn't have a choice when her boyfriend slips her an abortificient in her food/drink?
What about the teen dragged into the clinic by her parents, or worse kidnapped and driven across state lines because the baby's father is not white (gasp!)

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 5:47 PM


Thanks Nobody. I try to keep things "civil" too. Sometimes I fall short. It certainly is an emotional topic (on both sides) Don't worry about my feelings, however, I a rock, I am an island. (that's for PIP)

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 5:50 PM


I won't apologize for calling Hal a murderer because he is very proud of the two abortions he pressured his wife to have. Go through the archives and you will see the evidence. He posts here encouraging abortion and constantly saying that abortions don't cause any trauma to the woman.

I have great compassion for post-abortive women who have had to come to terms with the abortion. I grieve with you and I pray for you as I hope you will pray for me and others.

I had my daughter, a surprise pregnancy, after nearly giving into the pressure of her 'father' and his 'friends' and 'family'. Thankfully, I had my daughter and am so grateful. Most women, in my opinion, are forced into abortion because people around them are pushing for it --- they want to minimize any $$ or not be embarrassed.

I take Hal to task because he posts here all the time and has no remorse -- he is trying to harm more people than he has already. Notice his wife isn't posting and it is only his assurances that she is just fine about it all. Of course this is the net and he may have just made up an identity. Either way I find it despicable.

I will continue to ask Hal about his actions and his motives -- because he is here to harm, not to help people or engage in understanding.

Just a nobody, I'm glad you are here to tell the real story. You will have much that is useful to share with others and I am sorry I caused you any pain.

Posted by: LB at August 21, 2008 5:52 PM


I am not here to harm. I think an abortion ban would cause harm. Lots of harm.

and, If you have any evidence that I pressured anyone to have an abortion, let's see it.

As for calling me a murderer, I really don't care.

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 5:59 PM


Just a Somebody,
Do sorry about what you have been through. I had an abortion 18 years ago, that I regret very much.
Glad you are here!

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 6:05 PM


A ban would probably harm some people....

Those that make their money through abortion (is that you?)
Men who see children as a burden (Is that you, like Mr. Obama?)

All, in all people who need to justify the killing of others (yes, that is you).

One group it won't hurt are the unborn children, just like the ones you had killed.

Where there is life, there is hope.

Posted by: LB at August 21, 2008 6:05 PM


So not Do.

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 6:06 PM


I take Hal to task because he posts here all the time and has no remorse -- he is trying to harm more people than he has already. Notice his wife isn't posting and it is only his assurances that she is just fine about it all. Of course this is the net and he may have just made up an identity. Either way I find it despicable.

I will continue to ask Hal about his actions and his motives -- because he is here to harm, not to help people or engage in understanding.

Just a nobody, I'm glad you are here to tell the real story. You will have much that is useful to share with others and I am sorry I caused you any pain.

Posted by: LB at August 21, 2008 5:52 PM
.....................................

Notice that Bobbie's wife doesn't post here. HM's wife doesn't post here. Jasper's wife doesn't post here.
I'm sure that it's because these men forced their wives to continue pregancies and now all suffer crippling depression.

Posted by: Sally at August 21, 2008 6:30 PM


Hey Im bored today. Thought Id give it a try. You never know. SoMG seems to be getting his act together and actually responding a bit. Doug even gave it a shot.

Right on, Oliver. IMO the abortion debate is one of the very best, since it takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all make.

Rock on.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 6:33 PM


Notice that Bobbie's wife doesn't post here. HM's wife doesn't post here. Jasper's wife doesn't post here. I'm sure that it's because these men forced their wives to continue pregancies and now all suffer crippling depression.

Touche, Sally.

My wife used to argue abortion, but she "only" did it for a couple years.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 6:34 PM


Somebody,

First, you beat me to it. While I hate what Hal did, I do not hate Hal. And I really get upset when I see people dumping on him. Say you hate that he killed his kids...say you think he made a "wrong" choice...but calling him a murderer, implying that he is somehow less human. It breaks my heart.

Second, Wow! What a story. How brave you are to share it, and live it. And how very impressed I am by your ability to admit your "wrong" and move one. It would be so easy to just wallow in guilt, which would do nobody any good.

I have so much admiration for people that pull themselves out of hell. My son has bi-polar and watching him go through what he went through before being diagnosed and coming out on top...hearing Carlas story and now yours...you guys amaze me. And humble me. And inspire me.
And make me realize how small my problems are.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2008 6:35 PM


Bobby,

I remember Oliver well. He was on at the same time Rascal was on and boy oh boy were those debates AWESOME!

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2008 6:41 PM


Right on, Oliver. IMO the abortion debate is one of the very best, since it takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all make.

Rock on.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 6:33 PM

NOPE. It takes you down to the UNPROVABLE and IRRATIONAL assumptions YOU make Doug.

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 6:46 PM


So do Oliver and Lauren fight over the computer? Maybe they have a schedule. :)

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 6:47 PM


mk:
what is the definition of murder?
from wikipedia:

In common law jurisdictions, murder has two elements or parts:

1. the act (actus reus) of killing a person
2. the state of mind (mens rea) of intentional, purposeful, malicious, premeditated, and/or wanton.

I dunno - sounds like abortion is an act of murder to me.

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 6:51 PM


BTW: anon was me and my stupid computer!

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 6:53 PM


Patricia,

I fixed it for you...

I know it's murder, you know it's murder, but the Doug's of the world only recognize standing Law and legal definitions. As SoMG has pointed out, it's actually homocide. Personally, I think it's splitting hairs. But hey, let them have it. What difference does it make, really? Does insisting we call it murder make it any worse? Does not calling it murder make it better?

It is the absolute worst possible depravity in the world...period. Bar none. No exceptions. A rose by any other name and all that...

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2008 7:17 PM


Sally says

"Notice that Bobbie's wife doesn't post here. HM's wife doesn't post here. Jasper's wife doesn't post here.
I'm sure that it's because these men forced their wives to continue pregancies and now all suffer crippling depression"

Uh oh...since Oliver rarely posts here and I do does that mean that our children forced him into crippling depression...uh oh!

We used to have 2 computers, but then both of our lap tops died similar deaths and we replaced them with a desk top. It's for the better anyways, since we have kids now and it's better for everyone that only one parent can be involved in serious debate at a time LOL.

Posted by: Lauren at August 21, 2008 7:27 PM


Mk, Your son being bi polar must have been a difficult path to walk in the pre-diagnosis years, for both of you. Actually, the best therapist I've ever met, is bi-polar. She's a personal friend of mine...I adore that "chick" She is very successful now that she has found her niche. I'm betting the same for your precious son. :-)

Carla, Thanks for the kind words and telling me that you too are post ab. It changes some of us, really. Still we stand strong, accept our personal "choices" (ugh, I hate that word) and some of us, (like you, are brave enough to admit it and even reach out to others.) Feels, good huh? :-)

LB, You are brave to have withstood so much social and familial pressure in order to make the decision to have your child. I wish I had been made of the same internal fortitude, in the midst of an unplanned pregnancy. It could not have been easy. Hats off to you . :-)

Patricia, Thank you for the prayers. I never turn those down! Matter of fact, I am praying for all of us here...even when I can't remember everyones name yet! LOL...He knows I mean everybody!! :-)

Andy, that was a funny remark...sometimes a laugh can come at juusssst the right moment..thanks! :-)

Oh yeah, Hal? Man, oh man do we not see eye to eye but, it's free speech so uhm, what can I say? Still, gotta give one of us right winged zealouts a pinch o' credit right? I tried to cover your back. :-)

Oh and LB, one more thing...I wasn't trying to be critical...I will probably toughen up a great deal by visiting these boards! Ha ha...how could one not? I just recall "coming out" so to speak about my abortion experience and well...there I was, egg on face, humble, full of remorse, humility, guilt, shame, repentance and I FREELY admitted, I had made a terrible "choice" under intense pressure...still, I had some "Christians" calling me nasty horrible gut wrenching names, even though I was making my story somewhat public to help them...to help me...to help bring the ugly truth to light. I just remember that, it killed me inside...this wasn't the brand of "christianity I grew up with...(despite my pi** poor "choice")it wasn't how Jesus would have treated a dirty rotten but repentant sinner. Eventually for a while, I wouldn't have anything to do with "those phony lifers" ...That's how I began to see the majority of them..

Sad, too...because we need women to know we care about them and their babies, not just the babies...from experience, the nicest people to me during my crisis...were the clinic staff..as they lured me to the door..and boy did I NEED a kind word at the time....GULP...(little did I know the trap I was about to walk into)...I feel like empathy and reasonable solutions with a kind heart saves more lives (literally and figuratively)..

Well, all that excess verbage, to say, I wasn't so much condemning you as I was sensitive from having worn those all to ill-fitted shoes. Please forgive me if I hurt your feelings in any way.

Thanks y'all.
J A N

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 7:33 PM


JAN (haha, now I'm thinking of the Brady Bunch) --

Thank you for sharing your experience, though I'm sorry you had to go through all of it. Although I'm pro-choice, it sounds like we have some things in common. Sometimes I look at everyone around me and I am just struck with the urge to tell them that whatever they've been through, they're not alone. I wish I could hug everybody! lol

Posted by: Alexandra at August 21, 2008 7:41 PM


I feel like hugging everybody too, Alexandra. (unless they are intentionally and unduly cruel, manipulative or antagonistic)heck, even the antagonistic one's just need a little love (te- he)

You sound compassionate and full of empathy. those are amazing human qualities and seemingly in short supply these days.

It's very nice to meet you.

Whoa, have we gotten off topic... partially my bad...sorry guys..I'm going to do reports and STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER!!! LOL

Nite

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 7:53 PM


Somebody, ((hugs))
I hate the term "post abortive." ugh :) I have found amazing hope and healing through the Forgiven and Set Free study, Silent No More, Rachel's Vineyard and I am a state team leader with Operation Outcry.
http://www.operationoutcry.org

I am so sorry that you were also treated so horribly by those that called themselves Christians. AWFUL!! You are safe with me.

((Alexandra-Hugs to you!))

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 8:00 PM


Patricia,

I fixed it for you...

I know it's murder, you know it's murder, but the Doug's of the world only recognize standing Law and legal definitions. As SoMG has pointed out, it's actually homocide. Personally, I think it's splitting hairs. But hey, let them have it. What difference does it make, really? Does insisting we call it murder make it any worse? Does not calling it murder make it better?

It is the absolute worst possible depravity in the world...period. Bar none. No exceptions. A rose by any other name and all that...

Posted by: mk at August 21, 2008 7:17 PM

thanks, MK!
But what do the Hal's of the world think it is
like everything else in their life, they call it something else!
unborn baby=fetus, blob of cells, zygote, conceptus, product of conception
abortion=termination of pregnancy

I could go on but you know the drill.....
I think we should call it exactly what it is.

Posted by: Patricia at August 21, 2008 8:07 PM


thanks for the link ((((((carla))))) i will check it out1

BTW, Hannity is talking about the audio files on this post right now, CST!!!

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 8:17 PM


Hal,

Cool. Youre a monster. You have no justification for denying rights to people. You just say you feel like it. You might as well be Hitler or a slave trader.

Why talk anymore? You just do what you want and dont worry about any moral justification, just what "feels" right. I hope to god you dont one day "feel" like its okay to kill random people.

Doug you are a bit better. You justify your point of view based soley on what is actually law, which is essentially circular reasoning, but at least you attempt to justify it.

Posted by: Oliver at August 21, 2008 8:29 PM


Hi JAN,
Sorry to hear of your experience. You did all of the right things to reach out for help and wound up with none from the proper authorities.

I think it is always enlightening for us to hear from post abortive women who are willing to share their experiences. For the most part I think all would agree that you will get much support from the pro-lifers on this site.

Would you mind expanding on your experience just a little? What ultimately made your decision to end the pregnancy? In what way did the staff help you? In what way did you feel lured into the clinic? Were you remorseful after? Are you regretful now?

Thanks for sharing if you wish to. If not, no worries.

Posted by: Sandy at August 21, 2008 8:35 PM


Sandy, uhmmm...I am remorseful. I am pro life. I chose to end the pregnancy for a myriad of reasons and looking back, they really weren't MY reasons...I think, I wanted to ease everyone elses(presumed)burdens and I was under a great deal of pressure...not to mention, it's not easy to be thrilled by a pregnancy resulting from rape...just a bunch of stuff that after the fact...didn't even matter.

Staff? They were the only people in my life who were supportive and NOT pressuring me. I suppose in a way, I felt like falling into their arms on one hand, hating the idea of eing there...and thinking this is what everyone is "hammering" on me to do anyway.

I'm giving you vague answers arent I? I'm torn about telling you the truth.

I suppose I can but, I'm going to be embarrassed to be here...

deep breath....and... uhm, okay Sandy, so much for anonymity right? My son was born alive..hence the sleuthing, the asking questions, seeking honest perspectives here and the interest in the whole Obama expose.

I waited a long time to terminate because I was seeing a therapist twice a week, trying to find another solution...but eventually caved under too much pressure..I was apparently the only one in my life who wanted him. So, I guess that's the answer.

(and oh God do I regret it. always will.)

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 8:59 PM


JAN, it's terrible that you were coerced into a decision you didn't agree with.

Posted by: Erin at August 21, 2008 9:46 PM


Oh Jan,
I'm sorry. So, so sorry.

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 9:53 PM


Erin, I did it, didn't I?

For me the moral of the story is:

Women should listen to THEIR OWN feelings and distance the negative voices of those around them...none of those people will be the one "in the stirrups" will they? Then they don't have a say in the matter.

Posted by: just a nobody at August 21, 2008 9:55 PM


JAN-

How tragic for you. You are an incredibly brave woman. My heart and prayers are with you.

Posted by: DeeL at August 21, 2008 10:03 PM


JAN --

I am so sorry about your son and all your pain. I am praying for you to have peace and know forgiveness.

The future lies out in front of you and there is so much you can bring to the world. You are very brave to share your trauma here. This site can be hard at times, but I truly feel that sharing real experiences is what changes hearts and minds and leads to healing.

My best you.

Posted by: LB at August 21, 2008 10:10 PM


JAN,

I have some questions but you don't have to answer them and I will understand if you don't.

You said your son was born alive correct? Did you get to hold him at all or anything like that or no? What happened when he came out and was alive, did they provide him with any care at all?

Again, you don't have to answer if it's too personal.

I'm sooooo so sorry for what you went through.
:(

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 21, 2008 10:10 PM


It appears some people don't even believe a "Human child" should have all the rights of a "Human child". Senate Bill B1663 addressed the issue of an infants having the most basic human right. LIFE.
The Pro-death group have already increased the time a woman can abort her baby from first trimester to last trimester. Now they want to protect the current policy of neglecting a baby to death? Obama argued that he's confident a Doctor wouldn't do that? It's happening all the time. Babies have been left to die in trash cans, back rooms or in little beds with a sign saying NBM "nothing by mouth". Basically, these are living breathing human beings some who may need only nurishment and basic health care to live?
What next.. you can kill them until they start Kindergarten? (give a pro choicer an inch...)
When a dog gets hit by a car and is lying there suffering in the street.. strangers rush to get it help. Sometimes it's saved by a veterinarian..sometimes the efforts fail, sometimes it dies before anything can be done, but at least there's an effort made. Why do we recognize that life as valuable, but not the life of a tiny "Human life"?

Posted by: CP at August 21, 2008 10:21 PM


I agree with that 100%, JAN.

Posted by: Erin at August 21, 2008 10:26 PM


"What next.. you can kill them until they start Kindergarten?"

CP, don't give them any ideas... It may not be out of the question for these people..they may want to kill toddlers who cry too much.

Posted by: Jasper at August 21, 2008 10:35 PM


What did Ann Coulter say? "4th Trimester abortions?"

Posted by: Carla at August 21, 2008 10:37 PM


one more thing. During his interview at the Saddleback Church when asked about when life begins etc.. Obama said it is"above his pay grade" to answer that question with any specificity. say WHAT?
I have since heard some try to justify that bazaar response by saying that since Obama is a Christian, he was simply implying that only GOD can determine the answer to the question.
Well folks.. God isn't running for President, God won't be choosing the next Supreme Court Justice.
And when a candidate is asked to say his or her personal belief on something, he or she should give answer, not try to squirm around it with such nonsense as Obama resorted to. Kudos to McCain who isn't afraid of being honest.

Posted by: CP at August 21, 2008 10:39 PM


Jan wrote:
"Did I bother to go to the police? No."

Did all of you so very careful readers who parse and twist Obama's every utterance notice this? Sorry Jan, while you may not have been in the best mental state, these were still your actions - your actions of omission. If you had gone to the police, had a rape kit taken, there would not have been a question about who the rapist was. So now, he's free to rape others.

Now you want to blame others for your choices? And take away other women's freedom because you're not happy with the results of exercising your own?

There's a whole bunch of fishy smells in this story.

Posted by: phylosopher at August 21, 2008 10:46 PM


""4th Trimester abortions?"

Carla, LOL...yea...

Posted by: Jasper at August 21, 2008 10:48 PM


Oh look, another pro-choicer who just can't STAND that a woman regrets her abortion. :gasp: I'm shocked.

Phylo,

Did you happen to miss the part about where she already WENT to the police and they did NOTHING? Reading Comprehension 101 dear. If I had been telling the cops the whole time what was going on, and they refused to listen or DO ANYTHING, why would I go to them again?

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 21, 2008 10:51 PM


"Now you want to blame others for your choices? And take away other women's freedom because you're not happy with the results of exercising your own?"

No we want to take away the right to neglect your preborn because it is intrinsically immoral and motivated largely from clearly unjustified self serving reasons.

Posted by: Oliver at August 21, 2008 11:09 PM


JAN (I like that name alot better than Just a Nobody),

Thank you for telling your story.


Now that this blog has been getting enormous traffic due to Obama's charade, it is CRUCIAL that folks hear your story. Obama was right, women don't make these decisions lightly; well, most women I guess. Did you think to go to a crisis pregnancy center? Your pastor/priest/rabbi?

Were you able to name your son? How old was he? How long ago was this?

Let me know if I need to mind my own business.

Posted by: carder at August 21, 2008 11:12 PM


Oliver,

I've observed Hal for over a year, and the word that comes to mind is "disconnect".

What seems so crystal clear to us just doesn't sink in with him. It's almost like the possibility could not even remotely occur within his sphere of existence.

"Clueless" might be another way of putting it, but it could be misconstrued as an attack on his intelligence, which is what I'm not saying at all.

Part of this reason is that he is so passive about it. He rarely, if ever, gets riled up like the other choicers here. Which makes me wonder if he was not brought up to believe in the sacredness of life (which somewhat diminishes his culpability), or he did learn the Ten Commandments and decided to go by his own rules regardless.

However, if Hal wanted to eat rice and beans at my house with the Obamas, then he's welcome, too.

Posted by: carder at August 21, 2008 11:22 PM


Doug you are a bit better. You justify your point of view based soley on what is actually law, which is essentially circular reasoning, but at least you attempt to justify it.

Oliver - heh - thanks, I guess.

Yet I disagree. I'm not "justifying my view." The existing laws are the reasons for many of the "whys" and "why nots" you asked about, but I never said my opinion "is right because the law agrees."

My reasoning with respect to abortion is that it's better to let women retain the freedom they now have in the matter, versus make it illegal for them to have abortions. I would rather have a given woman free to make her best choice, rather than other people in effect telling her what to do.

I no more want a woman told she can't legally have an abortion than I want her told she can't legally continue the pregnancy.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 11:36 PM


Right on, Oliver. IMO the abortion debate is one of the very best, since it takes us down to the unprovable assumptions we all make.

Rock on.


Patricia: "NOPE. It takes you down to the UNPROVABLE and IRRATIONAL assumptions YOU make Doug."

No, my assumptions are no more irrational than yours, at the very least. And we all make unprovable assumption.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 11:38 PM


MK: I know it's murder, you know it's murder, but the Doug's of the world only recognize standing Law and legal definitions.

No, MK, you don't like abortion, but you don't know it's murder, since the law does determine that, not your likes and dislikes.

I have my likes and dislikes too, but I don't pretend they go any farther than what is true.

Posted by: Doug at August 21, 2008 11:40 PM


Doug,
You never answered this question when I posed it to you on the other thread. Since PBA is now illegal, wouldn't an abortionist who performed one be commiting murder?

Posted by: truthseeker at August 22, 2008 12:16 AM


Oh Geez, Truthseeker, I really did. This was some weeks ago.

But anyway - no. The procedure of D & X being illegal does not mean that it is "murder."

I think that prior to 1970 all abortion procedures were generally illegal in the US, and then too abortion was not treated as murder.

Posted by: Doug at August 22, 2008 1:02 AM


"My reasoning with respect to abortion is that it's better to let women retain the freedom they now have in the matter, versus make it illegal for them to have abortions. I would rather have a given woman free to make her best choice, rather than other people in effect telling her what to do."

Oliver: But why Doug?

Doug: Because its the law currently.

Oliver: I know that, but why would you support the current law?

Doug: Because I think its best for women to decide.

Oliver: But why do you think that? What if a woman is not qualified to make this decision? Should I be able to decide to kill someone? Why not? How does a woman have the right to kill a preborn but not a newborn?

Doug: Its the law. Thats why.

Oliver: YES BUT WHY DO YOU SUPPORT THE LAW

Doug: Because I just think women should be able to decide.

Okay, we dont need to respond to Doug for the next 60 years. The conversation has played its course.

Posted by: Oliver at August 22, 2008 1:23 AM


What about infanticide Doug, is that considered murder? What if the doctor meant to perform a PBA but baby came too fast so doctor shoots baby up with drug to kill baby after the baby is completely delivered? Would that be murder? What about a viable baby with the umbilical cord was still attached? Would it be murder to stab that in the head with a scissors? Are you under the belief that a baby does not get ANY rights until he/she is completely delivered and takes his/her first breath?

Posted by: truthseeker at August 22, 2008 3:40 AM


JAN,
I know it was hard to tell your story here. I apologize for any disrespectful comments you may receive..well, did receive. Your story is yours. You can tell as much of it or as little of it as you feel safe enough to. It is yours. We weren't there. I understand your regret and your pain. Others may try to diminish it and disregard it. Their comments shame themselves. Your story is so important!! There are more here that want to hear what you have to say. I am praying for you.


Posted by: Carla at August 22, 2008 6:54 AM


Honestly, I dont realy care too much what others think of me...I did it. I paid $$ for it, I stand accountable. (Never doubt that)

I stated previously that I held myself accountable and was not blaming others. I also just (kind of, sort of) tried to explain how I "got to that place" where I made the decision.

No need to explain it again really... Yes, I saw clergy. Yes, I had a Christian counselor too. She is the one I saw twice a week, hoping to find a better "solution" (she's the one who kept telling me this (abortion)was the best choice for me, for my family)

Police were ZERO help in the past...they were a joke really. So why go back? Anyway, when you are pg and keeping the baby, after the child is born, DNA testing would lend some creedence to the story. (I planned to have the baby, social stigma, family disapproval or not...caved later obviously, right?)

As STUPID as it may sound to the person who asked about the police...I had a very important meeting the next day, which REQUIRED my attendance...I chickened out of going based on the fact that I had to bathe for work...couldn't go until later and the thought of being impregnated didnt really settle in until a couple of weeks later, (when the 2 lines showed up on the test.). Not to mention driving to the meeting remembering how I had been dismissed repeatedly when I was trying to report the stalking...and how the officer kept telling me, "he has a crush", "they're just flowers, or poems" etc., etc.

So you see it was a chain of poor choices on my part. I should have raised cain with the police.

I should have, I suppose not shown up for a meeting and risked losing my job to go to the ER for a forensics kit.

I should have not asked my church to recommend a Christian counselor, once I did the pg test.(but honestly, where better would you think to ask?)

I should have ignored my ex husband when he said he did not want me to have the baby if the counselor stated repeatedly that the stalker might harm my children.

I should have ignored my other family members and the various advice they doled out.

I should have ignored the letter from the guy's attorney, threatening me. I even should have reported it to the Bar Assc.

I didn't. I kept trying to find other solutions, trying to go to work and not cave.

I admit, I was wrong, on many levels and all of my poor decisions, led to the ultimate poor decision.

I blame myself...needn't question that one!

Someone asked how I ended up in the place where you decide on abortion...that's it... right there.

I don't really care what anyone thinks. I was weak. I caved. I couldn't take the pressure.

I accept the flipping blame. 100% of it. The rest were just external circumstances that weakend my resolve to maintain the pregnancy and raise my child.

Yes, I named him. I named him before I went to the clinic. My "counselor" (used in quotes for sarcastic reasons) suggested that I name him, write letters to him, etc. It hindsight it seems sick as he**. It felt sickening but I reasoned, "She's the expert here. She is from my church."

Looking back, I was so enmeshed in listening to the advice, wants, and vocal objections toothers, I really couldn't hear myself any more...I was a dummy.

As for the question about how long ago did this occur?

Three years now. As if you hadn't already suspected...right? *forced grin*

His name was Rowan.

He was a beautiful child. We had a little bit of time together. Some reports say eleven minutes. That was me guesing. You couldn't have a watch or anything in the clinic. I tried to count, one mississippi,.... but that was interlaced with trying to care for him and call for help..it may well have been longer..heck I was in a vaccuum of thoughts and worries(counting minutes got lost in the mix, to say the least) ..he lived long enough to cherish, long enough to break my heart, and long enough for me to change my perspective on "choice"

I still miss him.

Well, now, there are a few answers. For the choicers here...perhaps a morning freak show, LOL.. Time to go to work.

You all are doing a great job ...Keeping Obama and the media on their toes!!!
:-)



Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 8:07 AM


Rowan.

Beautiful.

He is in my prayers along with Hal's little fellas and Lilith.

God Bless You JAN. God Bless You.

And God have mercy on that counselor...

Posted by: mk at August 22, 2008 8:18 AM


Just a nobody -- If I could give you a tight squeeze -- I would. But instead I will remember you in my prayers. I am constantly reminded of the importance of using emotional restraint when discussing such serious topics, and to stick to using logic. I wish that I could sign up for a course in theology from Bobby and a course in logics, reasoning and ethics from Oliver. :)

Posted by: Eileen at August 22, 2008 9:12 AM


Jan! I should have read the entire thread!!!

Posted by: Eileen at August 22, 2008 9:15 AM


Jan! I should have read the entire thread!!!
Posted by: Eileen at August 22, 2008 9:15 AM


What I meant by above statement is that I didn't discover your name until after I posted!

Posted by: Eileen at August 22, 2008 9:18 AM


J A N,

Do not be brought down by people who can not handle the reality of what abortion is. They don't want to hear about it, so they will pick apart your words as though they have a right to. Ironically, most of these people are the choicers, and you'd think with all us "hate-filled pro-lifers" we would be the ones throwing stones. Nope. Just remember that choicers. You're ALWAYS throwing the stones.

Anyway Jan, I see that we were pregnant around the same time, and like you, I was under a lot of pressure to abort except from my family. They were my saving grace in EVERY aspect of what that means. My baby is now 2 1/2 and I wish I could have known you then to show you that abortion is not the only way for you. I pray that time will heal your heart as much as it can in this type of situation.

:hugs:

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 22, 2008 9:45 AM


DEAREST ANON....

A FEW THOUGHTS....WHY NOT BE "ADULT" ENOUGH TO POST A SCREEN NAME?

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK I GIVE A HOOT ABOUT YOUR OPINION? I WAS ANSWERING QUESTIONS.

YOU LOVE ABOTION IF YOU WANT TOO. YOUR DECISION.

DO YOU HONESTLY THINK YOUR WORDS ARE HURTING ME INSIDE? DUDE OR DUDETTE...I'VE HEARD WORSE.

I JUDGED MYSELF. I OWN UP. THANKS FOR SHARING THOUGH.

TELL YA WHAT....I'M ABOUT TO SAY SOMETHING PRETTY DARNED UGLY...YOU GO GET STALKED, RAPED, AND ANY OTHER THING I MENTIONED...AND YOU CLIMB UP IN THE STIRRUPS...YOU WATCH YOUR BABY STRUGGLING FOR LIFE AND NO ONE WILL CALL 911 FOR YOU...THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I GIVE YOUR OPINION..COME EXPERIENCE ANY LEGITIMATE CONTEMPLATION..

I think the gestational limits should be scaled back based on modern medical advances...you don't lets agree to disagree.

Despite my foolish choice to go to Pendergraft and Perper's delightful EPOCH center for women, my son was born. He was at that particular moment, a seperate human being from me. He had Constitutional rights just like you.

He should have been allowed those rights as a homosapien...EVEN IF HE HAD A CHILDISH, CONFUSED, WIMPY, BLAMECASTING, "mother"...right?

If your child was lets say, 2 days old....was denied (hopefully, life saving medical treatment) ...I dunno...because you accidentally dropped him or her...you know something pretty "stupid"...and the kid kicked over....would you be sorrowful?

Would you at least think, if never saying aloud...wow, I dropped my kid... no one was willing to do anything to save him.... yeah..my fault, I did drop him or her....but there was more to it than that right? You sought help after a mistake, none came, the baby died...

bottom line it was your choice huh...ok... cool. we agree on that?

oh and what the heck with the beautician analogy...makes about as much sense as the insulting one I just made....

you think I'm an idiot? cooooool..

it's mutual precious... really...trust me on that.

Oh and as for you pointing out the errors of my ways? Why bother? I already did it for you...it's comes about as a little gift we call HINDSIGHT.

You take care now.. :-)

ANGELE

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 10:14 AM


JAN,
Thanks for sharing your story. I am so sorry for your loss and so sorry you didn't have better resources to really help you assess what your true needs and feelings were surrounding your situation. How incredibly sad. You and Rowan will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Can I just ask a few more questions?? If you don't want to answer them, obviously understood.

How far along were you? Were you getting any prenatal care prior to the termination?

Did anyone give you guidance that it would be ok to carry your baby to term?

Did you get support from your family and those who supported the termination after the procedure?

Have you had any counseling to help you since your experience?


Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 10:16 AM


If your child was lets say, 2 days old....was denied (hopefully, life saving medical treatment) ...I dunno...because you accidentally dropped him or her...you know something pretty "stupid"...and the kid kicked over....would you be sorrowful?

I meant to say...hopefully NOT...My apologies

Posted by: Anonymous at August 22, 2008 10:18 AM


and....i hit the send button before i signed my name...sheesh

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 10:19 AM


Anon,

Please use a name.

Posted by: Jasper at August 22, 2008 10:20 AM


Annonymous,
Your compassion in very underwhelming. No surpirse coming from a pro-abort.

I am truly at a loss for words. You make me sick.

Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 10:22 AM


"is" very underwhelming.

Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 10:24 AM


My responses are harsh, but I hope you'll realize that your experience is what perhaps is called a "hard case." And hard cases make notoriously bad law.

Posted by: Anonymous at August 22, 2008 9:34 AM

PS
This statement just sums up the stupidity of your entire post.

Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 10:28 AM


Anonymous,

You are welcome to repost your response to JAN's testimony. Just follow the rules and provide a name.

Posted by: carder at August 22, 2008 10:29 AM


Hey Sandy,

Yes I had prenatal care. Did I get familial suport after the procedure? Well, they regret that it happened. My Mom keeps a picture, that I took of him, on her night stand. She prays for what she calls, her accountability. So yes.

I had to stay in Florida for a few extra days, trying to find a physician who would give me a Rhogam shot, since there was no doctor there at the clinic to give one...not to mention, they wanted me out of there Fassssst!

I took a taxi and went to see Rowan at the funeral home. I went and bought him the christening gown that he would never get to wear for such a purpose..silly, huh? The Director of the funeral home allowed me a room to just dress him and spend time with him. (which was very kind)

I went back to the counselor I had seen before the procedure.. but really, I couldn't look at her anymore. Looking at anyone who knew what happened was painful.

I got counseling later. He was a kind man. He wept when I explained it all to him. He is pro choice.

Mostly, I just went forward publicly hoping the FDLE would press charges against the clinic. I had hoped to change some kind of laws...foolish again huh?

It just seems to me, that abortion clinics should be at least as regulated as veterinary clinics and tatoo parlors.

The fact is, in many states they are not. To be honest, honest, honest...Roe v. Wade gave women the right to "choose".There is no arguing that fact...I don't even trie too, in case yu haven't noticed.

I'm not as radical in my views as some, on the subject. I'm a feminist of sorts.

I won't judge anyone for their "choice"

I would just think that pro choice organizations ought to fight just as hard for a safe and regulated clinics as they do the "right to choose" (IMHO, it's ANTI feminism to not do so.)

I also, for obvious reasons think that part of that safety should include care for a child, who is born alive and thusly has his/her own constitutional rights.

Who knows if Rowan would have lived ten more minutes, days, or a hundred years...but he was entitled to his Rights too...just like anyone else on this site..

Okay, enough of that huh?


Later

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 10:59 AM


Hi JAN,
Thanks again for sharing. I had wanted to ask if you were able to spend time with Rowan, but was afraid of being too intrusive. I am glad that you were able to dress him and say goodbye.
I am sure that is comforting to you.

Sorry for being so curious.....but what did the clinic do when you asked for them to help Rowan?
What was their response? What did they say to you? Were they shocked when this happened? Or was is just another day at the clinic for them?

You are incredibly courageous for going public. I believe the hard cases are the impetus for making wonderful laws that should are put in place to protect citizens.

Are there any links or articles you would like to share that would tell your story and about your legislative efforts???

What has happened to your case?

Again JAN, I am not a person of flowery words, but I am so sorry for your loss and am feeling deeply affected by your story.

Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 11:20 AM


Hey Sandy,

Thanks to you and to everyone for the prayers and kind words.

There are articles in Jill's archives and all over the internet.

Pretty much, I begged for them to call 911 and Violene the (clean up lady and sometimes "nurse"who is of course, not a nurse!) said she would get her supervisor, Debbie.

I STUPIDLY thought they would call 911 and come try to help. They didn't. I screamed for them again...still no help.

I remembered I forgot to give the person (they require someone to drive you) who had dropped me off my cell phone. I called her...really quiet and fast...told her to call 911 so they wouldn't catch me with the phone. By this time, I realized that DUHHHHH, they weren't going to try to help me save him.

He passed away.

A few weeks later a reporter from World Magazine called to tell me that an ambulance actually did arrive on scene. I never knew they were there. The clinic staff turned them away. My friend did call 911. That's all over the internet too.

I don't want to go look up the articles, right now to post the links. Maybe later..okay?

As thrilled as I am that this subject of born alive babies is being placed front and center in the media...it does still cause me to hurt.

Once I regain a tad of composure over here, :-), I will look some up..if yu haven't already found them.

oh and I'm sure you may run across the link to the movie 22weeks. Some young man made a short film about Rowan. The trailer and the teaser trailer are pretty graphic.

I don't know the director. I have spoken with him. I have no clue as to what his "spin" on the story may be or how it translates.(I only found out about it from a google alert.) I hope to get to view it before everyone else does...time will tell.

Okay...in ALL FAIRNESS....answering questions has TOTALLY hijacked this thread.....

Let's get back to Obama and these audio tapes!!!!!

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 11:39 AM


JAN,
Thanks and fair enough. I am feeling somewhat thick for not connecting the dots to you and your story being posted here before. Sorry:(
I will look them up for further reading.
I really do appreciate you taking the time with my quesitons!!


Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 11:48 AM


THe original anon response was mine - like you, not hiding, just forgot to post name.

There are a couple happenings in the timeline that need to be considered for a coherent picture, JAN.

1) It was the guilt and your previous mental state from the unresolved rape and other events and it's aftermath that caused you to dither - and perhaps the rhetoric of the anti-choicers and your religion. If you had acted decisively either way - abort in the first trimester, or carry the pregnancy to term, there would be no story here. You wanted time to decide - well dear, biology got in your way and that's something you can take up with your god or mother nature.

2) As for regulation of abortion clinics or lack thereof- thank the anti-choicers for that too. If they didn't carry out violence and intimidate with their protests, abortion could be done at regular hospitals. But you can thank JIll and her ilk for polarizing the argument with their extremism and their intrusive, public persecutions.

3) For every story of your sort, there are those women who are satisfied, content and at peace, that their (wanted but severely disformed and probably non-viable) fetuses were spared excruciating pain from intrusive (and themselves from having to watch it), futile efforts to prolong life - and that they had those few minutes with a breathing child instead of a corpse.

There's a woman on another blog who is just as traumatized as you because she had to watch procedures on her trisomy-18 baby, which was tortured for weeks before dying as was inevitable. But you don't hear pro-choicers arguing that infants born with defects should never be given care, or that women carrying such fetuses should be forced to abort. We trust women and their families and doctors, to make the right decisions given their particular circumstances. We would simply appreciate you giving other women the same consideration.

Posted by: phylosopher at August 22, 2008 12:17 PM


Let's get back to Obama and these audio tapes!!!!!
Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 11:39 AM

Oh God no. Horse dead, please stop beating.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 12:47 PM


P- please re read my previous posts.

I am NOT...let me repeat this NOT trying to take away anyone's right to choose abortion.
Nor, am I passing judgement if they exercise their CONSTITUTIONAL right to do so!!!!

Got that part?

(Thanks for pointing out I shouldn't have waited so damned long trying to find another solution but uhm... I kinda sorta figured that out already. :-) Kind of you to offer your well meaning advice though.)

I don't know your sex but...let's say you were to have a procedure scheduled...clinic or hospital...

Would you so desire that it be done in a sterile environment?

Would you want the doctor to be in
attendance?..especially if required by law?

(I won't use a gender based example, such as a vasectomy or tubal ligation, simply because I don't know your sex)...

Let's say it was a root canal ... Would you prefer the dentist do it (it's your mouth right?) Or would the janitorial staff suffice?

Go with me here....during YOUR procedure...the doctor wasn't there...you weren't told this until you had been given the meds to sedate you (the only comparison to me being given the meds to initiate labor, that I can summons up for this ananogy)

The janitor is your caretaker and facilitates the root canal...something goes awry...you are bleeding...medical assistance is requiredfor you...no one in the building is qualified to help you... you beg for an ambulance...they KNOW they will be in legal trouble if they call on your behalf..soooo..they don't.

You, P, are shocked and maybe a little dazed (even as ADULT and all knowing as you appear to be in your wisdom laden, ever advising previous posts...yes you..the all knowing one...just happen to remember you have a phone...you call for help)

No one shows up..or they are turned away by the janitor and receptionist..you are ushered out of the back door.

Tell me..you would not want that clinic regulated so that others seeking root canals would at least be safe???

Now, I see, from personal experience a need for clinics and or hospitals to be regulated... that's it in a nutshell.

I also see that if we moved back the gestational limits, there would be no born alive infants..who's viability may be in question...no need for the medical assistance.

It's pretty much a no brainer P.

Abortion is here. It's been here for decades. People will have them. If that changes? Well then the regulations and Constitutional Rights will fly out the window won't they?

Until then...the women who seek them under ANY circumstances should have them safely.

Surely you agree with me there, don't you?

PS... When a woman with a pregnancy diagnosis of serious birth defects have a choice too. I feel for the woman who had to watch her born child suffering...honestly I do...there again...she also had a choice. We live with them and we learn from our experiences.

I'm curious...were you so amazingly helpful, giving her a taste of your wisdom and advice?

Did you remind her that she was the one who made her choice? If so, was she as ever grateful for your amazing, after the fact and USEFUL insight?

I would love to hear about it! :-) :-) :-)

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 1:14 PM


"I am NOT...let me repeat this NOT trying to take away anyone's right to choose abortion. . . .

I also see that if we moved back the gestational limits, there would be no born alive infants..who's viability may be in question...no need for the medical assistance.

It's pretty much a no brainer P.

Abortion is here. It's been here for decades. People will have them. If that changes? Well then the regulations and Constitutional Rights will fly out the window won't they?

Until then...the women who seek them under ANY circumstances should have them safely.

Surely you agree with me there, don't you?"


I sure do.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 1:38 PM


Just a Nobody, I know you've probably been told this already, but you are definitely not a nobody.

I just wanted to say how very sorry I am for your loss, and for the fact that no one would help your baby. It hurts my heart just thinking about it.

You have been so extremely brave by posting your story online.

Posted by: Bethany at August 22, 2008 1:45 PM


"Senator Obama strongly supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to choose. He believes that there is a moral and ethical element to this issue, and he believes that women do not make these decisions casually, but wrestle with them in consultation with their doctors, pastors and family. Senator Obama understands that some will disagree with him and choose not to support him, and he respects those with different opinions. But the recent attacks on Senator Obama that allege he would allow babies born alive to die are outrageous lies. The suggestion that Obama -- the proud father of two little girls -- and others who opposed these bills supported infanticide is deeply offensive and insulting. There is no room for these kinds of distortions and lies in this campaign. What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions. They will not tell you that Obama voted against these laws in Illinois because they were clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade. They will not tell you that these laws were also opposed by pro-choice Republicans and the Illinois Medical Society -- a leading association of doctors in the state. And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat. The bills Senator Obama voted against in Illinois were crafted to undermine Roe v. Wade or pre-existing Illinois state law regulating reproductive healthcare and medical practice, which is why Senator Obama objected to them." -from Obama's website

I would have the reader note that the first part, in fact the very first sentence of this statement, addresses the portential concern of Obama's pro-abortion supporters, not those who might draw the conclusion that Barack Obama would allow a born baby to die without medical care. Obama is showing us who his constituients are and his unwavering support for them. Barack Obama believes that there is a moral and ethical element to the issue of abortion, one which in a public forum, Barack Obama himself stated quite clearly that he does not feel qualified to address. If Barack Obama believes that the law would be struck down than let the law be struck down. But instead of even claiming that he believed in the bill by voting for the bill, Obama showed unwavering support for Roe v Wade and presumed to know what the courts would or would not strike down. Obama himself did not wrestle with the question that he believes that women struggle with with such great difficulty.

Obama may respect those with different opinions in word, but he does not respect them in actions. If Barack Obama had said that he believed in the bill, and had voted for it, knowing and stating that he believed that the law would be struck down, than that would have shwon some moral courage. Instead Obama has shown no such courage. He is concerned only that Roe v Wade stand and that the rights of the unborn should be disregarded in deference to the support given to him by pro-abortion groups. His support is not strong for Roe v. Wade, in fact his support is radical. Was Barack Obama more concerned that the law would be struck down by the courts, or that his pro-abortion supporters would be deeply offended by his support of a law that would ensure medical care to infants born alive under any circumstances? Political expediancy is the rule for Barack Obama. These laws however were not clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade as his statement implies, but in fact contained clear language that they would not be used to undermine Roe v. Wade.

Barack Obama and those abortion supporters like him would have you believe that any abortion restriction or defence of the unborn, or if only the immediately born, should be viewed as undermining Roe v. Wade. Barack Obama has called abortion a fundamental American right. I would be remiss if I did not point out that the Supreme Court only erroneously viewed that Roe v. Wade was supported by the Constitution and that never should it be viewed that the Constitution is in any way supported by Roe v. Wade. Barack Obama has never once in public office voted for any kind of bill that would impliment any kind of restriction upon abortion, even in the most dubious situation where a reconsideration of the abortion to be had would be prudent.

Obama has voted continuously and reliably to support any kind of abortion, in any stage of development of the unborn, by a woman of any child bearing age, even voting against parental notification for young girls seeking abortion as early as age 12. While Barack Obama may have done nothing legally wrong in voting against these bills and his subsequent interpretations as to why he voted the way that he did, Obama has shown us volumes about what he supports and that factors that go into his decision making processes. Obama voted against the "Infants Born Alive" bill for the same reasons that he "agonized" over opposing the war in Iraq. To cement constituential favors and support for future political gain in future political endeavors. Barack Obama has been concerned with one thing and one thing alone since entering Washington, to create an immediate and lasting political legacy chiefly centered around the "right" to abortion.

Posted by: Augustine at August 22, 2008 2:12 PM


Bethany,

Thanks...at moments like these, I don't know if it was an act of bravery or an exercise in stupidity. The one thing it does appear to have been, was an exercise in futility.

I'm pro life, like I said repeatedly. I wasn't always...which is rather obvious.

Despite the change in my personal and political perspective, I cannot judge anyone for a personal decision to exercise a Constitutional right.

(not to mention, that I haven't the power to "take away" anyone's right)... as someone suggested I was attempting to do! ROFL...as though I held such magical, political power!!! Oh, still laughing at that one.

Many people can come together and fight for or against Roe v Wade as they feel personally called to do so. I admire their tenacity...either way, it's a huge battle.

From ONLY my experience, and subsequent research, after the fact...I think women deserve a safe clinic/hospital if they opt to exercise this Constitutional right and born children have Constitutional rights too.

That's a fairly neutral stance and I fail to comprehend why it was sooo offensive to anyone who votes for choice.

In the end, it's just an opinion...

Angele

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 2:18 PM


Great work Jill. Continue the extraordinary work you are doing.

Posted by: Augustine at August 22, 2008 2:19 PM


I don't find your position offensive at all. In fact, it's the most rational pro-life view I've seen here.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 2:20 PM


PS: Be prepared to be called names and told that you're not pro life, you're pro choice. This statement won't sit well with some here:

"I am NOT...let me repeat this NOT trying to take away anyone's right to choose abortion. . . ."

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 2:38 PM


Gee ...coming from you Hal, that's a compliment!!!! LOL

Thanks, Thanks a bunch. I'm glad to see that there is some degree of common ground.

A

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 2:41 PM


I doubt that will happen. If it does, it does.

The FACTUAL TRUTH IS...I Angele...one single little person, of less than average intellect, income, or power...do not have the POWER to do such a thing...Even with Jill at the helm...she has back up...and I am CERTAINLY no Jill!!!

I just felt called to tell the truth, no matter how humiliating, to let born people get a chance to live and women to be safe.

Pots can't call kettles black...at least not this one.

Would I discourage a woman from an abortion. Sure. I would. I would also do my best to help her find a solution. I've talked to a bunch of women who have darkened a clinic's doors...most of us would have stayed pregnant with a few reasonable solutions.

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 2:58 PM


Phlyo,
I would appreciate if you appreciated my story of abortion regret. Give me the same consideration you would give a woman who is satisfied, content and at peace with her abortion. I long to tell every woman I know of who is hurting from her abortion to seek help because there IS help. There is hope and healing. I am not talking about the women who are content, satisfied and at peace with it, am I?? I have never met any. The women I meet are struggling.

You trust women with everything but THE TRUTH about abortion. Tell them THE TRUTH and then trust them to make the decision.

ABORTION HURTS WOMEN.

Sincerely,
Jill's ilk.

Posted by: Carla at August 22, 2008 3:03 PM


Hal,

I find it interesting that you judge our views on rationality when you yourself fail to provide any justification for your own point of view except "I feel that way."

Posted by: Oliver at August 22, 2008 3:06 PM


"Even with Jill at the helm...she has back up...and I am CERTAINLY no Jill!!!"

I accidentally deleted part of that...it went something like.... even with Jill at the helm....(meaning to emphasize that I dared not think I was righteous enough to take on the job of those who were already in the trenches with far more to contribute than a peon such as myself.) LOL

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 3:07 PM


Angele, you sound very compassionate and wise. No one should have an abortion if they don't want one, and giving women options sounds like a fine thing to do. If the pro-life movement was content to "discourage" abortions rather than ban them, I would have no objections at all.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 3:15 PM


You find that interesting Oliver. That's nice.

I have no obligation to "provide justification" for my view. My view is the law of the land, my view is accepted by the majority of Americans polled. Why don't you justify your view? Actually, don't bother.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 3:22 PM


well stated carla :-)

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 3:23 PM


"1) It was the guilt and your previous mental state from the unresolved rape and other events and it's aftermath that caused you to dither - and perhaps the rhetoric of the anti-choicers and your religion. If you had acted decisively either way - abort in the first trimester, or carry the pregnancy to term, there would be no story here. You wanted time to decide - well dear, biology got in your way and that's something you can take up with your god or mother nature."

Funny. So now you are a practicing on-line psychologist??? BTW, If you read the story, it was her religion that recommended the counselor that encouraged her this was the best option.

"2) As for regulation of abortion clinics or lack thereof- thank the anti-choicers for that too. If they didn't carry out violence and intimidate with their protests, abortion could be done at regular hospitals. But you can thank JIll and her ilk for polarizing the argument with their extremism and their intrusive, public persecutions."

This is such a joke. You don't even make sense! Prior to roe-v-wade there were obviously no abortuarys. They were done in hospitals and clinics in states where it was allowed. Women were given the right to "choose" and viola abortionists see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and tons of money to be made. So "drs." opened up not just one, but two, and three or more clinics so they could reap the benefits of aborting babies in multiple cities. They are so money hungry they employ untrained staff, unlicensed medical quacks and unsanitary conditions that don't meet standard guidelines.
They are so cheap they don't want to pay for bio-medical waste companies to pick up the babies so they throw them in a dumpster. You are going to blame pro-lifers for this??

"3) For every story of your sort, there are those women who are satisfied, content and at peace, that their (wanted but severely disformed and probably non-viable) fetuses were spared excruciating pain from intrusive (and themselves from having to watch it), futile efforts to prolong life - and that they had those few minutes with a breathing child instead of a corpse."

Again more stupid statements. Spared excrutiating pain? I can't even imagine what it would feel like to have your limbs yanked one by one from your body, or to have your neck stabbed with a scissors. Quit with the severely deformed and non-viable fetus argument. We are all well aware that thanks to the pro-abort mentality women choose to abort for reasons as insignificant as a hang nail.


"There's a woman on another blog who is just as traumatized as you because she had to watch procedures on her trisomy-18 baby, which was tortured for weeks before dying as was inevitable. But you don't hear pro-choicers arguing that infants born with defects should never be given care, or that women carrying such fetuses should be forced to abort. We trust women and their families and doctors, to make the right decisions given their particular circumstances. We would simply appreciate you giving other women the same consideration."

Finally the last of your ridiculous rant.
How do you know the woman on the other thread was just as traumatized?? How do you know she wouldn't have been more tramatized to have know she made the decision to have her baby sucked from her womb and stabbed in the back of the head just to have his/her head crushed and delivered a bloody mess?

Well....thank you pro-choicers for not arguing that babies with defects should never be given care. As far as you not arguing that women must abort if their babies have defects, again gee... thanks, but your pro-abort agenda does just fine in this area. Many women are told to abort by their doctors and then go on to have major regrets after. They are ridiculed by the medical profession for wanting to carry their baby to term, so they choose abortion "because my doctor said it was the best option" Many times these families are not given any other options available to them!!!!!!! These women must live with the decision that their "good doctor" recommened.

Posted by: Sandy at August 22, 2008 3:23 PM


"Hal,

I find it interesting that you judge our views on rationality when you yourself fail to provide any justification for your own point of view except "I feel that way."

Posted by: Oliver at August 22, 2008 3:06 PM"
--------------------------------------

Oliver...Hal is a good example of moral relativism. His morals are dependent on what's "in", what's popular or what he "feels" it should be, for the moment.

Posted by: RSD at August 22, 2008 3:24 PM


Not exactly true RSD. I think the government should stay out of a woman's medical decisions regardles of what's "in" or popular at the moment.
I do find some comfort, however, that the right to choose has become settled law.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 3:45 PM


"Angele, you sound very compassionate and wise. No one should have an abortion if they don't want one, and giving women options sounds like a fine thing to do. If the pro-life movement was content to "discourage" abortions rather than ban them, I would have no objections at all."

Hal,

Thank you sir. I am curious...and since you think I'm semi reasonable and fair, I would like to know your views a little better...by asking a few questions.

1. Do you think that clinics should be held to the same standards as a dentist's office or a hospital? (man...let's stretch it out...how about a minimum of a tatoo parlor or a vet clinic)

2. Do you think that babies are homosapiens?

3. Do you think that they have constitional rights...once born?

side notes and disclaimers..lol..

I will NOT judge your answers, if you choose to provide them...heck I won't even challenge them. (you already know my opinion on the above)

Please also note, that I am not trying to "single you out" I don't ask the other pro choice posters because the one's who have responded to my posts seemed more antagonistic than logical.

I really am seeking an honest perspective.

Angele

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 4:19 PM


Assuming I'm not one of the antagonistic pro-choicers, I'll answer the questions.

1. Do you think that clinics should be held to the same standards as a dentist's office or a hospital? (man...let's stretch it out...how about a minimum of a tatoo parlor or a vet clinic)

Yes. I think they should be regulated like any other medical facility.

2. Do you think that babies are homosapiens?

Yes.

3. Do you think that they have constitional rights...once born?

Yes.

Posted by: Alexandra at August 22, 2008 4:26 PM


Thank you for your answers, Alexandra.

Where there is common ground there is headway.

:-)

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 4:37 PM


1. Do you think that clinics should be held to the same standards as a dentist's office or a hospital?

Yes indeed. In fact, it's why I'm glad Planned Parenthood is upgrading their facilities. I don't want this used as a scheme to limit access to aborton providers, but I have no objection to reasonable standards for abortion clinics. I assume (but don't know) that many substandard facilities should rightfully be shut down. Maybe that's an urban myth, but anyway, I agree with you. Minimum standars like a dentist.


2. Do you think that babies are homosapiens?

Yes

3. Do you think that they have constitional rights...once born?

yes. But i'm not sure where you going with that one. Free speech, warrentless searches? Due process of law? Constitutional rights for the most part, maybe for all purposes, are rights we have vis-a-vis the government. So, born babies would have the right to equal protection of the laws, and many other things too. That baby Jill held for 45 minutes had constitutional rights, but I assume no amount of medical care could have keep him alive. Jill seems to have realized that, and just held him, despite her medical training.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 4:45 PM


I say yes to all three of the above questions as well.

And I'd like to alter Carla's statement by one small word to portray my own perspective: Abortion CAN hurt women.

Posted by: Erin at August 22, 2008 5:16 PM


and sometimes having a baby can hurt women.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 5:19 PM


http://www.notdeadyet.org/docs/bushvsschiavoamicus.html

Hal,

After I catch up on my personal and professional obligations, I can better answer "where I am going" with number 3. :-)

In the interim, I did a couple of keyword searches about constitunional rights regarding life saving medical treatment. I ran across this on Shiavo.

Toward the bottom you will see a host of intersting references for that particular argument...I found them interesting thought for fodder when applied to the BAIPA...

Keep in mind I only scanned it..so I can't present a decently formulated thought on the matter...I just beleive that babies born are seperate human beings...once delivered..and thusly deserve medical treatment too.

(abortionists refer to born alive infants as "the dreaded complication", which must mean they are aware that it happens)...how to deal with it? That's what Jill fights for!!!

If these physicians are aware that this occurs, shouldn't there be a solution at the ready?

I had a born alive infant...then I asked for an ambulance and help for the child...I would have PAID for that too...

Even if Rowan had no rights...even if there was no equipment to provide him with emeregency care...who's rights does the clinic adhere too?

If the baby has none, do the mother's apply?


If Rowan had rights, then does the clinic adhere to those?

(keep in mind, we both needed medical assistance)

Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 5:37 PM


There is no right to medical treatment that I know of. The brief you linked to was about the right not to have other people make medical decisions for you. (simplified I know) And, they lost didn't they?

I'm not arguing that babies, once born, don't deserver medical treatment. I'm sorry I haven't read all your posts about what happened when you had a born alive infant. It sounds terrible. If a medical facility fails to provide medical treatment to a child when the mother is requesting it, seems like they would be liable in a civil suit. Maybe even criminal negligence. Not sure. But I don't think it's a constitutional violation, however. Unless there is state action, the Constitution does not apply.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 5:57 PM


I would propose a compromise that allows abortion on demand for first trimester and forbits abortion for any reason in third trimester. We can negotiate the rules for the second trimester.

Posted by: Hal at August 21, 2008 4:13 PM

One problem Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton permit abortion through all nine months for the unspecified "health" of the mother.

That is what keeps Tiller in business. All you have to do is get the doctor to say it is for "health", not life mind you.

Abortion or emergency c-section to save a woman's life have always been legal because the intent was to save life not destroy it.

However the intent of abortion on demand is to destroy life just because one person has decided that she doesn't want him or her to live.

Posted by: hippie at August 22, 2008 6:00 PM


Yes, my proposed compromise would require amending the Roe rationale.

Posted by: Hal at August 22, 2008 6:11 PM


What about infanticide Doug, is that considered murder? What if the doctor meant to perform a PBA but baby came too fast so doctor shoots baby up with drug to kill baby after the baby is completely delivered? Would that be murder?

Truthseeker, I certainly think so, as you stated it.
.....


What about a viable baby with the umbilical cord was still attached? Would it be murder to stab that in the head with a scissors? Are you under the belief that a baby does not get ANY rights until he/she is completely delivered and takes his/her first breath?

Unbilical cord doesn't matter, Dude - and there is specific language in the BAIPA law addressing that.

That "first breath" thing was for the Old Testament Hebrews, but now I don't think it matters.

Posted by: Doug at August 22, 2008 6:38 PM


Yes that case was lost..I was pointing out the particular arguments regarding who makes decisions regarding administering or withholding treatment..especially the notations regarding children and infants (where some of those referenced set case precedent)


Some states have laws that guarantee emergency medical treatment at any hospital. Mine does. Now granted, individual private hospitals can then transfer the patient who's insurance will not cover any additional treatment, to another facility, once the patient is stable enough for the transfer.


This is not all states, not federal and not constitutional, of course.
.
Once state laws are enacted to provide treatment, and if infant human beings are indeed homo sapiens..who are what hospitals are allowed to treat...and they do carry some constitutional rights...then the criminal laws and negligence from withholding treatment can come into play.

Sure civil actions are possible...but... in some states ..you are unable to sue someone on behalf of a miscarried or stillborn child. (I didn't even try..I didn't want the blood money)also...

Many doctors will falsify the death certificate (in states that even issue them beyond a particular gestational age) in order to cover themselves (civilly) in the the case of a baby born alive and denied medical care.


For example, my son was listed as "still born" on his death certificate. That is rather interesting when you consider that state law in Fl requires the attending physician to sign off on a death certificate and the cause of death.


Dr. Perper was not on sight at any point of the day.. before, during or after birth and death.

The FDLE (Florida Department of Law Enforcement) said there was nothing to charge Dr. Perper with because the child was still born... convenient..
especially considering that...the EMR didn't even come into the building on a 911 call for a baby born alive or a bleeding mother (patient's request)...they simply took the word of two women in scrubs.ROFL


The licensing board..or whomever regulates abortion clinics in that state, never filed response to the complaints filed for there being no physician present for the procedure (also against state law) nor did the follow up with any health code violations inspections or investigations.

Also, interestingly, the state ME initially refused to autopsy the child, based on being labeled "stillborn" . Finally with enough pressure form pro lifers, an autopsy was done. (note they preserved the tissues as wet samples, meaning they were useless for a second autopsy...when testing for the presence of the never administered drug, digoxin....and of course the ME did not test for the presence of that drug either.) She did at least list the cause of death as extreme prematurity..and in an interview, stated it was indeed probable that his heart was beating after delivery.

Oh, did I mention that Dr. Perper, the absentee doctor has a daddy who is a celebrity ME in another county in FL. (you know the lopsided headed fellow that autopsied Anna Nichole Smith.)

Just about any way you shake it...these people had their butts really covered. This is the reason why people fight for laws to change. Just count the laws broken here. Look at the cover ups. Look at how the EMR team and FDLE look away from abortion related calls...it's ugly, it's unpalatable..and it get's sticky.

I bet not a person on this site, would want medical treatment denied to them, nor anyone they cared for. I'm betting they would be appalled at having no doctor there even if they drove their wives, girlfriends, daughters or just a buddy for an abortion and this happened. Many are aware that it happens far more often than you may realize.

It seems that pro lifers are the only one's who currently fight for this...the safety issues of all human beings involved. Sure they don't like abortion. They find it horrendous. At least they are trying to make sure that your future children and grandchildren can be treated better than dogs.

So, if laws are enacted by lifers to protect those who seek abortion...who are they hurting? Jill's bill before the Illinois Senate, sought to protect..it did not threaten Roe v Wade.

Something else she may accomplish could do just that...BE FOREWARNED...but not this bill...this bill simply gives born human beings some rights.


Posted by: just a nobody at August 22, 2008 7:27 PM


Doug: "Because I just think women should be able to decide."

Oliver: Okay, we dont need to respond to Doug for the next 60 years. The conversation has played its course.

To his credit, Oliver didn't maintain this approach, and as we left it, on pretty good terms with each other.

Posted by: Doug at August 22, 2008 7:55 PM


Hal,

"I have no obligation to "provide justification" for my view. My view is the law of the land, my view is accepted by the majority of Americans polled. Why don't you justify your view? Actually, don't bother. "

You dont justify it because you dont have anything to justify it with. Thats the bottom line. I have no issue with you if you claim ignorance and just trust the law for now, but if you come in here and tell others that they have poor reasoning without attempting to reason yourself, you show yourself to be at the minimum hypocritical.

You play the whole "I dont need justification for you buddy!" card because you know that if your provide any that it wont really make any sense. You probably havent even thought about why you support the current law, as long as it is in your favor.

Let me ask you this. When your wife had her preborns aborted, was it because she didnt want her body used for 9 months as a violation of her bodily autonomy or was it because she didnt want a child? Im sure its the latter. Id like to see you clear that up ethically.

Posted by: Oliver at August 22, 2008 9:39 PM


JAN,

I remember reading your story a while back and crying, and I hadn't made the connection until you shared you story here. I went and read the story and cried again. Rowan was a beautiful little boy, he really looked perfect. My prayers are with you.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at August 22, 2008 10:55 PM


I'd just like to say "thank you" to you, Angele, for telling your story here...and for allowing it to be told elsewhere.

I pray that the impact of it will be great, and a wake-up call for many people.

I'm so very sorry for what you went through. I have seen a photo of your beautiful baby boy, Rowan. May God continue to heal you and hold you up in His arms.

Posted by: Kel at August 22, 2008 11:55 PM


Sally says

"Notice that Bobbie's wife doesn't post here. HM's wife doesn't post here. Jasper's wife doesn't post here.
I'm sure that it's because these men forced their wives to continue pregancies and now all suffer crippling depression"

Uh oh...since Oliver rarely posts here and I do does that mean that our children forced him into crippling depression...uh oh!

We used to have 2 computers, but then both of our lap tops died similar deaths and we replaced them with a desk top. It's for the better anyways, since we have kids now and it's better for everyone that only one parent can be involved in serious debate at a time LOL.

Posted by: Lauren at August 21, 2008 7:27 PM
............................

Odd that Oliver couldn't have made the same conclusion over Hal's wife and computer situation.

Posted by: Sally at August 23, 2008 1:15 AM


Sally,

Care to explain what you are talking about?

Posted by: Oliver at August 23, 2008 1:25 AM


JAN,
I also read your story on Lifenews and then here. I am so sorry. I remember looking at pictures of Rowan and crying that no one would help you and your precious baby.
I am so glad that you are here. Keep talking about what happened to you, it's very important!
(Hugs)

Posted by: Carla at August 23, 2008 6:58 AM


Angele
I recently sent Jill the link to the WND webpage with an article about the movie made about your experience.
Very sad and very tragic.
For others interested:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72811

Please be patient, the webpage can take about 15 to 20 seconds to load.

Rowan was a very beautiful baby. God bless you Angele.

Posted by: Patricia at August 23, 2008 8:13 AM


Let me ask you this. When your wife had her preborns aborted, was it because she didnt want her body used for 9 months as a violation of her bodily autonomy or was it because she didnt want a child? Im sure its the latter. Id like to see you clear that up ethically.

Posted by: Oliver at August 22, 2008 9:39 PM

Oliver, my understanding is that Hal aborted his kids because they were an inconvenience at that time. That's what I seem to remember - maybe Hal can correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: Patricia at August 23, 2008 8:23 AM


Angele
I, too, remember your story from a while back. So sad. So tragic. My deepest "thank you" for sharing this, and for putting human faces on a horrific reality that Barack Obama would like to whisk away as irrelevant and undeserving of anyone's attention. Bravo to you girl. Keep up the good fight. And find comfort in knowing that God will take this horrible heartbreak of yours and make something good from it.
I saw Rowan's picture on WND. He's such a beautiful little boy. I know you never wanted to be "a cause". So, as you struggle with all that has been placed upon you, may God bless you and your little one in heaven with untold graces and bring you into the peace and comfort of his loving embrace.

Posted by: DeeL at August 23, 2008 10:25 AM


Dearest Elizabeth, Kel,Carla, Patricia and DeeL,

Thanks to each of you for your kind words, hugs and prayers.

I don't "fight" for anything. (Thanks for the credit though. :-) My attorneys tried very hard, I think, but the laws are so tricky and convoluted regarding abortion. Obama has brought this fact front and center for our country.

I was reading about civil rights on another thread here, and it is so tragic that infants have none.

I did hope to change some laws in Florida. It was minor stuff really but I believe roads are built one "brick" at a time. :-)

Common sense would dictate that if Dr. Perper was charged criminally for not being present for a medical procedure (maybe having his license suspended or revoked) then the next woman would have a phyisian present.

If the investigations were followed through with on the standards of cleanliness for that string of clinics, then perhaps new laws regarding the same would be created. (even the pro choice readers agree clinics, should held to the same standards as at least, a dentist's office)

I did not out right ask this question but, I think it is safe to presume that the majority of the general public would not take issue with the mother/patient requesting medical assistance for herself and a legal mandate stipulating that the abortion clinic at least call 911 on their patients behalf.

I had also hoped to see a law in Florida that allowed the patient the right to request medical assistance for a born alive infant, even in a case of induced abortion, at her own discretion and expense.

The changes I had hoped for would not have threatened Roe v Wade. They simply would have assured that the procedure was carried out with MORE rights for the patient exercising her right to choose.

Some have called me pro choice for this. It is simply not true. I am pro woman, and pro child. I am pro life. I just know that Rome was not built in a day and that finding common ground for both sides is paramount for change.

My son, Rowan was beautiful wasn't he? The photographs of him(online)were taken by Liberty Counsel, after he had been in the morgue for over a month. He was to small for embalming. I took photographs of him in a christening gown at the funeral home. He was much, much more beautiful then and of course during his brief life.

His "story" won't change laws. Maybe it will soften a heart or two along the road to change.

Thank you for caring about him. He is a special boy.

Love and gratitude,

Angele



Posted by: just a nobody at August 23, 2008 11:59 AM


After years of abortion recovery I named my little girl Aubrey. Aubrey and Rowan are together, waiting for us in heaven. We will see them again. :)

Posted by: Carla at August 23, 2008 1:01 PM


Carla,

Aubrey is a beautiful name. Being forgiven and knowing we will see our children again is of great comfort to me. I know that it is for you too.

God bless you, Carla.

A

Posted by: just a nobody at August 23, 2008 1:07 PM


question... on the bill that obama voted against.. I understood that he was like the only one who wouldn't vote for it.. did it pass? Is there now a law protecting abortion survivors? The federal one.. did it pass? The illinois one he voted against.. did IT pass?

Posted by: CP at August 23, 2008 11:44 PM


Yeah, Obama doesn't want any pesky pediatricians like Dr. Ronald Cornelsen testifying that these babies could have survived. Keep it in the family, as it were. Make sure only the abortion team -- people highly dedicated to ensuring that the baby in question ends up in the morgue -- knows what's happening in that abortion suite.

Posted by: Christina at August 24, 2008 8:06 AM


Hal, you said "I think the decision whether to terminate a pregnancy should be made only by the pregnant woman."

Nobody's against terminating pregnancies. We're talking about terminating BABIES here. All pregnancies end, typically at nine months. My friend gets gestational lupus and had to have emergency terminations to all her pregnancies at 32, 32, and 24 weeks respectively. Of course, because she preferred live babies to dead babies her pregnancies were terminated via c-section and her babies taken to the NICU rather than stuck in the soiled utility room.

Tell me, must the choice be made BEFORE delivery? Can the mom and the doctor look at Junior in the delivery room and decide, NICU or utility room, based on their preferences at the time?

Posted by: Christina at August 24, 2008 8:12 AM


Somebody, I know who you are and you ought to be speaking out on this. You know from experience. Contact Jill and have her people get you where you need to be so you can expose this kind of practice.

And email me! I've been worried about you since the storms!

Posted by: Christina at August 24, 2008 8:16 AM


http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2008/03/27/hundreds-born-within-abortion-limit-survive/

The link above is about viability stats. (uk)

It states one interesting thing...something akin too..."These stats are taken from premature deliveries, where there was either a problem with the mother or the child for the onset of premature labor to occur." "In an induced abortion, where ther was no natural onset of labor, the survival rate would likely be higher."

Posted by: just a nobody at August 24, 2008 10:21 AM


Hey there Christina! :-) :-) :-)
Everything is okay. I emailed you a week or so ago about the SD piece. I was out of town at the time. How are you, my friend?

I will email you tonight. I have a renovation/decorating project I've been working on for a couple of investors. I have to go check on it in just a few minutes, then finish up the budget part, (joy unbounded!! NOT)

A

Posted by: just a nobody at August 24, 2008 10:29 AM


"Tell me, must the choice be made BEFORE delivery? Can the mom and the doctor look at Junior in the delivery room and decide, NICU or utility room, based on their preferences at the time?"

Thanks Christina!

If we are going to have "choice" ...Let's have choice.

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