I can't help wondering...

By Mary Kay Hastings

Star Tribune, April 12, 2007:

babykiller.jpg

"A 17-year-old Oakdale girl told police she gave birth on the laundry room floor early Monday, then panicked and stabbed the baby girl after seeing her move a finger.
The baby, found by investigators in a bloody garbage bag outside the teen's home, had 135 stab wounds, many in her tiny chest. The Ramsey County medical examiner's office said the baby was born alive and bled to death.
Nicole M. Beecroft was charged with first-degree premeditated murder Thursday in Washington County District Court.
County Attorney Douglas Johnson noted that state law allows mothers to leave infants at any hospital within 72 hours of birth with no legal consequences. "She could have walked away and the baby would have been adopted by a family that wanted it," he said. "Instead she destroys two lives: her own and the baby's."We don't know what motivated her," Johnson said."


Click here to read the rest of the story.

I can't help but wonder...... why should this woman be punished when she could have accomplished the exact same thing the day before her child was born, by going to an abortionist?

It would have cost her a few bucks, but she wouldn't have to spend any time in jail. And the abortionist could have done the job with a lot less blood and carnage. I mean 135 stab wounds seems like overkill to me...

So why is what Ms. Beecroft did punishable by law, but what George Tiller does on a daily basis condoned, even lauded?tillerthekiller.jpg

I just don't see it. Does one tiny breath really make all that much difference?

Maybe we should be able to kill our children up until the time they get their drivers licenses. Or can drink their first beer. I mean after that first "legal" sip of alcohol, they are truly adults, right.

And God knows, I've wanted to "kill" mine a few times around that age...

Someone tell me. Please. Why is Ms Beecroft a criminal, and George Tiller a hero? Cuz I just don't get it...


Comments:

She might've gotten an abortion if she weren't pro-life.

Posted by: Cameron Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 12:16 PM


I think that abortion is not the root.

It is a fruit.

The fruit of a culture which values Panda fetus' over human ones.

...a culture that values money over life.
...a culture that has turned so far from Reality, that some don't even hear their own concience.
...a culture that will argue "intelectually" while their hardene heart feels nothing.

Fighting abortion wont change anything. We need to adress the deeper issues with our culture.

We are sick, and abortion is only a symptom.

Chris.

Posted by: Chris Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 12:25 PM


Is that true Cameron? Is she really pro-life?

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 12:28 PM


Hi MK,

I feel like a broken record here ... there are two phases were physical; human growth uses large amounts of zinc ... Phase I - 5-10 weeks; Phase II - all the 3rd trimester ... Phase III - immediately following birth (the famous postpartum depression period); Phase IV ... the period of puberty ... PMS, zits, criminality, acting-up, etc,

I just wonder how many of these categories apply to her? Abortion for a teen [Phase IV] usually means only a selection of depressive periods ... either Phase I or II. Infanticide (panic) is a Phase III response.

Posted by: John McDonell Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 1:47 PM


Chris -

"We are sick, and abortion is only a symptom."

You're right. But sometimes fighting the symptom ends in finding the cure for the disease.

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 1:49 PM


PIP -

There is nothing in the article that says if she is pro-life or pro-choice. It does say that their neighbor has angel statues in the house.

or, were you being sarcastic with that question and already knew that?

Computers, so hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic.

Posted by: Valerie Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 1:56 PM


Yeah, but don't get mad at the fruit, it can't help it. It is just a natural extention of the root.

Posted by: Chris Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 2:14 PM


The people who commit murder can help it, Chris. We all have the ability to make choices. Society does not force us to choose certain acts.

Pedophilia and rape are crimes which many times have a deeper root. Should we not get angry about pedophilia and rape? Should the people who commit such crimes be let off simply because they "couldn't help it"?

Valerie, you were right on the money with your response:
"You're right. But sometimes fighting the symptom ends in finding the cure for the disease."

Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 2:59 PM


Sorry Valerie, no sarcasm. I just don't know why she felt she had to do that.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:11 PM


And tiller looks super creepy.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:20 PM


Pretty in Pink,

If you think Tiller is creepy, go to his website and look at the chaplain...

Ewwwwwwww....!!!!!!!

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:24 PM


http://www.drtiller.com/chap.html

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:25 PM


I think Dr. Tiller and the Chaplain are related...they look alike, and it's creepy.

This little incident occurred right by my hometown and I've been wondering how long it would take before it would surface here. And I was also wondering how abortion would be connected.

Comparing a confused (and possibly disturbed) teenage girl to Tiller the Killer...creative.

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:41 PM


I was thinking the same thing..they look like they could be related. I wonder if they are. Very creepy is right.

Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:43 PM


PIP, MK, in my opinion it is not okay to criticize someone's appearance. It's not relevant.

In reference to the topic, I read this story last night and was very saddened. I was a little confused though, it sounded like it was unknown if the girl knew she was pregnant? The girl said "Something didn't feel right" and she gave birth. And the article said something along the lines of "the mother didn't notice her overweight daughter was pregnant." While it initially sounds incredible, I've heard of cases of women not knowing they were pregnant.

If she did know that she was pregnant, I can't imagine why she didn't seek help, at least during the delivery. What were her plans?! On the other hand, if she did not know she was pregnant, that would kind of explain how she ended up giving birth in her house alone. Nothing explains what she did afterwards.

Posted by: JustAnotherJane Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 3:45 PM


JAJ, it's true. I don't care if it is on topic. And he wouldn't look nearly as creepy if this guy wasn't killing 3rd trimester babies. But now that you know that information and look at that picture..doesn't he look creepy?

Also, they have a chaplain? At an abortion clinic? He is dressed up as a priest? I only thought Catholics had that collar. I"m so confused.


The whole thing is very tragic. But I can't understand the people that believe that she should [enter graphic punishment here]. Nobody but those close to her knows the situation.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 4:03 PM


I just heard about the Va. Tech shooting. So tragic :/ I'm praying for them and their families.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 4:33 PM


PIP -- You're right and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. Kind of a knee-jerk reaction. Criticizing appearance to attack the person is used on women all the time so I try to avoid it. But there's a big difference between saying "Jeffrey Dahmer looks creepy" and "Hilary Clinton is too haggard/ugly/has bad fashion" instead of criticizing her politics. The former I'm fine with, the latter is inappropriate.

Anyhow, how come this 17 year old's name and face were released to the public??? Don't they usually protect minors' identities (even in especially horrible crimes, like oh say, the kids who beat up a homeless man with bricks?)

Posted by: JustAnotherJane Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 4:34 PM


JAJ,

PIP, MK, in my opinion it is not okay to criticize someone's appearance. It's not relevant.

I'm not making fun of a big nose, or a silly haircut...when we say creepy, we mean as in spooky, scary, unsavory...and believe me, we are not making fun...there is nothing fun or funny about him.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 4:36 PM


PIP,

Also, they have a chaplain? At an abortion clinic? He is dressed up as a priest? I only thought Catholics had that collar. I"m so confused.

Yeah, it is confusing, but he is not a Catholic. I don't know what he is but some other denominations wear collars when they are "on duty".

Not only does he "work" at an abortion clinic, he baptizes the infants that were just aborted, and then they can have a little coffin and a ceremony. It's one of Tiller's perks. (or just a way to make more money, caskets are big $$$$)

So how sick is it to murder your child and then pretend that it was an unfortunate tragedy by having an open casket service for him?

Calling these guys creepy was being generous.


[graphic of letter sent to clinic]

Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery. Everyone approaches this experience with their own unique emotional, spiritual, and cultural background. There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way". Once the process of healing has begun, you may want to consider a token of the precious time you and your baby had together. All of these features of our program will be discusssed with you while you are with us:

* Viewing your baby after delivery
* Holding your baby after delivery
* Photographs of your baby
* Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate
* Footprints and handprints of your baby
* Certificate of premature miscarriage
* Cremation
* An urn for ashes
* Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state
* Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy
* Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional

Grief is a very complex emotion which is expressed in many different ways. We will attempt to accommodate your individual requests to the very best of our abilities.


Now before any of you guys get your panties in a knot, I know that some of these babies had physical reasons for being aborted. But most of them don't. And why wouldn't you go to a reputable hospital if your child had a terminal defect? Why go to this clown?

MK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 4:47 PM


JAJ,

Yes, there is a big difference. It is very annoying when someone criticizes a politician based on superfluous factors rather than the ones that matter (i.e. "I voted for George Bush because he is not boring"--yeah you got that right..)

"Yeah, it is confusing, but he is not a Catholic. I don't know what he is but some other denominations wear collars when they are "on duty"."
Oh, okay. Hm. I never knew that.

"So how sick is it to murder your child and then pretend that it was an unfortunate tragedy by having an open casket service for him?"
I can understand if they actually planned/wanted to keep the child and having medical reasons to abort so late and want it to help ease the greiving process. To just decide you don't want it but then go through all of this is so...yeah, sick is the word for it I guess. Ugh. Sad.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 5:21 PM


Well,this is a very sad story.What are these girls thinking? They need to treat these girls as adults and they should be put on trial for murder!I knew right from wrong at the age of 12. I babysat children in my neighborhood,and I would never hurt them.This is a mother killing her own child.Lock her up and throw away that key!

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 5:27 PM


Mom's home!!!!!

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 5:29 PM


Comparing a confused (and possibly disturbed) teenage girl to Tiller the Killer...creative.


But we're not comparing the girl to Tiller, we're comparing the crime and punishment to Tiller.

Both people kill a child at 9 mo's gestation.
One has taken a single breath, she gets prison time.

Another kills hundreds before that single breath and he is considered a hero.

It's not this woman and Tiller, it's the incongruity of the perception that we are comparing.

mK

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 5:32 PM


HUH,I call Tiller, John Wayne Gacy.I refuse to apologize for that. They look alike[with the acception of Tiller needing a few extra pounds]2 creeps in a pod.Same smile and all!!Put Tiller in some clown make up and walla!!

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 5:57 PM


As far as Tiller being any kind of hero? I think we all know the answer to that.The word LEGAL doesn't make something MORAL.The moral part is the only part I'd be worried about.

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 6:07 PM


What makes me laugh the most about this, is that I totally called it. I said to some of my other pro-choice friends that this is exactly what Jill's blog would say. "why should she be charged for murder when the day before she could have had an abortion?"

Now I don't know my research as well as I should but doesn't the mothers life have to be in danger for them to perform partial birth abortions. I have also tried to look "live birth abortions" up on the internet and I biased websites, meaning from pro-life individuals only. I also looked at the website that Jill provided some time ago and it still did not explain it. What proof do you have that abortions like this actually exist? I apologize but Jill saying, "because I worked for a hospital that did them" doesn't cut it for me.

Also, I also believe I heard that this young lady did not know she was pregnant and although this seems odd to me, it does happen. Perhaps if she had known she could have aborted, or perhaps if she had known she wouldn't have freaked out like she did, perhaps if she had known she could have been better prepared. Can you imagine what she most of been going though, to give birth alone? I'm not trying to justify what she did at all. Also in an article I had read I believe it said something about her father being abusive... ahh i wish i could remember, I will try to find the article and post it.

We also have no idea how supportive her parents may have been.

I also feel like she snapped and maybe wasn't really "there" when this happened.. this is my personal opinion. I mean 135 times? 135 times? You'd have to be insane! Well, i guess many pro-life people would say you'd have to be insane to get an abortion or believe in it. I am sure some pro-lifers will say that pro-choice people support this little girl because we believe in CHOICE... wouldn't surprise me

This whole story makes me sad and yes momof3 she will be tried as an adult.

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 6:21 PM


Thanks for that info Jana.These girls must be held accountable no matter what their age.Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson-[18 years old@ the time of crime]Committed infanticide together.They threw their son into a dumpster] Jessica Coleman [15 years old@the time of crime]-stabbed baby boy in chest after giving birth in her room.Boyfriend threw baby's body into a quarrey.Jessica turns herself in 2 years later.Currently serving 6 years.Why so little time?Seems to me that society is helping to send the wrong message.

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 6:38 PM


momof3,
I am happy to live in a state, Minnesota that offers women to leave their baby at the hospital within 72 hours without getting into trouble. Although it is sad that this newborn baby with never know its real mother I think that this law prevents sad things like this from happening...

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 6:53 PM


Jana,we have the Safe Haven Law here in Ohio as well.Someone dropped a baby off about 6 months ago. Jessica Coleman could have done the same.She chose murder instead.I'm not sure,but I think all states have the new law.

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 6:58 PM


Just a news flash:Actor John Cryer donated $1000 dollars to a pro-life organization. I just heard this on the news.He was told to give the gift card to an organization of his choice.I'm sorry I went off the topic,but I wanted to say "Thanks John!"

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 7:03 PM


I'm going to go off topic for a second too....

I haven't eaten dinner yet and don't know what to have, any suggestions? hehe

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 7:09 PM


talk about off topic.

wow.

Oh. And Beth. I agree with you 100%, (or should I say 200%)

We do have to deal with the fruit of peoples actions if you are speaking of it that way. I guess I am just more concerned with the root of the issue and how we got here. It wasn't too long ago that your wealth was determined by how mand children you had. ??? That was my point. Not that the fruit is okay, but the real problem is the root.

Posted by: Chris Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 7:10 PM


Pizza?

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 7:15 PM


perhaps I will...

any baby yet momof3?

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 7:18 PM


While we are dabbling off topic...

I just finished my spanish project on the use of racism and stereotypes as humor in TV shows.

I made a short collage of clips to show the class, and I put it on youtube!! Check it out (if you are colbert fans you will def. love this video because I tried to focus on Comedy Central shows):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS6oVDt4R5g

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 7:28 PM


No baby yet Jana.Thanks for the PM entertainment PIP!

Posted by: momof3 at April 16, 2007 7:36 PM


Speaking of you tube, one of the teachers I work in showed this to her class. She received it from a friend and could not stop laughing the whole time it was on.. This will put a smile on your face for sure!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoOihBb78w

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 8:01 PM


Jana,

My heart also goes out to that girl. Obviously all was not well in "her backyard".

But the point of this post was that George Tiller get awards (and I don't mean Jill's) while this girl gets jail time.

It's very sad. George Tiller should be put away for life and this poor girl should get psychiatric help.

But such is the irony of life.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 8:20 PM


Jana,

Now I don't know my research as well as I should but doesn't the mothers life have to be in danger for them to perform partial birth abortions.

No. The mother's life does not have to be in danger.

Check out Tillers site...

[our medical director]
[employment opportunities]
[notice of privacy practices]
[abortion by pill]

[abortion care - WOMEN'S HEALTH CARE SERVICES, P.A.]

Late Abortion Care
Elective

Abortion Counseling & Consultation | Procedure

At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion. If you have visited another clinic or physician, we will ask for the results from a recent ultrasound.

Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you.


This is the trick that the abortion side has used...first: the womens health. That can mean anything from a headache to a hangnail.

Second: viability. Dr Tiller himself says:

"Viability is determined by the attending physician" The attending physician in this case being Dr. Tiller.

Think about that and how it is worded.

Thats why we can't get a law passed against partial birth abortion, because they keep saying you need a health exception. Not a life exception. A health exception.

Tricky little buggers that Naral/Now crowd...

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 8:26 PM


Jana,

YouTube was too cute...the kid in the back looks like a "live" muppet!
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 8:28 PM


Even though I'm pro-choice, I don't approve of Tiller's practices...specifically his "specialty" in late-term abortions (as I feel those should be illegal except in the cases of severe fetal development or maternal life is in danger). And based upon his record (from what I have seen so far...I have yet to do some detailed research) he really should lose his practice and his license.

But on a happier note...I lurve this song and video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmSLR6B42bo

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 8:33 PM


We do have to deal with the fruit of peoples actions if you are speaking of it that way. I guess I am just more concerned with the root of the issue and how we got here. It wasn't too long ago that your wealth was determined by how mand children you had. ??? That was my point. Not that the fruit is okay, but the real problem is the root.

Okay I can agree with you there. ;-)

Posted by: Bethany Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 8:50 PM


I agree with Rae, I'm pro-choice but don't believe in late term/partial abortions, unless the mothers life is in danger, as in she will die if she continues to stay pregnant.

Although a secret about me is that my mothers life was in danger when she was pregnant with me. This was fairly early in her pregnancy. She had a blood clot in her leg. She needed medication that would safe her and abort me. She refused. She was bed ridden for a few weeks or months not really sure. Over 23 years later.. here I am. brother who would have had to have been 6 at the time, had to take care of my sister who was 3.

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 8:57 PM


MK- the video really makes me laugh.. hehe

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 8:57 PM


Hey everyone-
I found the article that I mentioned earlier. I haven't read it since Saturday but it says something about this girls family in it. I'm off to make more packets for teaching jobs.. So far I have sent out 27 applications with about 6 more to go out tomorrow.

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 9:00 PM


I suppose I should give you the link eh? ;)
http://www.twincities.com/minnesota/ci_5655866?nclick_check=1

Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 9:02 PM


Bah...I didn't mean "development" I meant "deformity"...curse you calculus for rotting that small bit that's left of my brain!

Posted by: Rae Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 9:03 PM


Jana, do I have to register to see it :/

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 9:34 PM


PIP,


That was EXCELLENT! Really funny. Thanks.

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 9:37 PM


PIP- I don't think so...


Posted by: Jana at April 16, 2007 9:40 PM


Thanks, MK! It took FOREVER to make! The class really enjoyed it, and my professor gave me a compliment, so I hope I get a good grade on it :)

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 9:41 PM


Oh, Jana when I went to the page it asked me to register.

Posted by: prettyinpink Author Profile Page at April 16, 2007 9:50 PM


I hope you did well on your homework PIP!!

Posted by: momof3 at April 17, 2007 10:54 AM


thanks mom :)

I'll let you all know how it turns out!

Posted by: prettyinpink at April 17, 2007 12:40 PM