feticide by vehicle
Now that is a new one. Perhaps this was her preferred method of abortion rather than surgical or chemical. I note that they said she totaled her car and killed her fetus. the most important is totaling her care, I guess. Also they say child and fetus in the same story. Twisted logic..they can't make up their minds can they?
Words matter and stories like this show the hypocrisy of abortion. She could have legally killed it by another method and called it choice. Stories like this help our side

"Quickening" has got to be the most ridiculous arbitrary (and archaic) line for legislators to draw, considering that mothers in 2nd and subsequent pregnancies report movement earlier because they know what it feels like when their little ones are active. So, my second daughter 'quickened' around 14 weeks, and her older sister, later than that.

So, if an autopsy could confirm Ms. Bruce had had the likes of Carhart inject potassium chloride into her child's heart the day before, no one would be legally responsible for the death. What a schizophrenic society we live in.

Yet another life having valued because it was wanted. Life has value, despite its origins, whether its wanted or not. When will the legislators get it? You can't have it both ways.

There's two sides to this story. One side is that thank God, the baby is considered a person and so, worthy of protection by law. The other side is rather gruesome, as this very same child at the very same gestation stage would have had NO right to live and be protected whatsoever if his/her mother DECIDED to kill the baby during abortion.... Sorry, this doesn't make ANY sense at all for me....
So if she accidentally killed her baby in a car crash - let's give her 15 years, if she purposely and consciously did it with a help of a doctor - she excercised her right to "choose"....
I think America would definitely benefit from a full-on whole country referendum to decide wether they protect all unborn or let them be killed any way the mother chooses to.

Believe it or not, this accident occured less than 5 min from my house!

I saw the local news coverage about it yesterday, and was surprised when I saw one local article with the headline "Unborn Child Killed After Woman leads police on chase".

I almost fell outta my chair, and said to my husband: Convienent that it's an "unborn child" when it's wanted, and a "fetus" when it's unwanted.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/23538595/detail.html

Klynn73 you are so right this is schizophrenic and SICK and yes ArkCatholicGirl you cannot have it both ways. God help us. The womb is indeed the most dangerous place for babies, the place that should be the most safe, nurturing and protective place has now become a death chamber if your mother "chooses" to have her cervix dialated, your body dismembered and mutilated with a curette and them have your body suctioned out with powerful vacuum.

"this very same child at the very same gestation stage would have had NO right to live and be protected whatsoever if his/her mother DECIDED to kill the baby during abortion"

That's not true. In almost every part of the country, abortion is illegal at 24 weeks without a medical reason.

Wrong, Ashely.

That's not true. In almost every part of the country, abortion is illegal at 24 weeks without a medical reason.

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 10:35 AM

Ashley, in the state of Georgia, where this occured, abortion is legal on-demand FOR ANY REASON AT ALL up through 26weeks 6 days gestation. There are at least three late-term abortion clinics which I am aware of, within a 25-30 minute drive of where this accident took place, which advertise elective abortion thru week 26. They are Atlanta Surgi-Center, Summit Medical, and Feminist Women's Health Center.

I live here right down the street from where this event took place.

Georgia is not unusual, there are other states that allow elective abortion for any reason past week 24. If you support abortion so ardently, then at least BE HONEST.

Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 10:35 AM

And "medical reason" is so vaguely defined everywhere (except Nebraska as of last month) that it can mean anything up to and including, "I just don't want it."

According to Guttmacher as of May 1, 2010:
"Gestational Limits: 38 states prohibit abortions, generally except when necessary to protect the woman’s life or health, after a specified point in pregnancy, most often fetal viability."

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

So if 38 states have gestational limits, then 13 (they are including district of columbia) HAVE NO GESTATIONAL LIMITS AT ALL.

Of those states who DO have gestational limits, there are several states who still go beyond 24wks.

It's illegal in Ohio. That's why so many women traveled long distances to Tiller's clinic in Kansas for late-term abortions.

I don't support late-term abortions at all. I don't understand how anyone go 6 months, feel a baby move, then decide they don't want it. If you're 24 weeks pregnant and want an abortion, I think you should consider yourself s*** out of luck.

I REALLY don't believe that an embryo is something to get all worked up about and treat like a baby, though. Every pregnant woman I know has confirmed this. My mom told me she never really felt like any of us were "babies" until she could feel us move and see our faces on an ultrasound. Until that point, she just considered us possibilities. She wasn't devastated by her miscarriage, because she never felt it was a baby.

And she's not pro-choice. She's just honest.

Edited by Moderator Bethany at 2:50

Right Kristi, and "women's health" can be defined as "depression" which makes it completely useless.

"Depression" is considered a "medical" reason and can be claimed by any woman at any gestational age. There is no real protection for babies at any stage of pregnancy.

@ashley

"A medical reason" wouldn't be too hard to obtain here, I am sure. We're dealing with a very pregnant woman who is drunk. Her possibly being an alcoholic or mentally ill would likely qualify and also there's a possibility of FAS or other disability for the child, from having been exposed to alcohol.

That's not true. In almost every part of the country, abortion is illegal at 24 weeks without a medical reason.
Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 10:35 AM

GO AHEAD ASHLEY, just admit you are wrong.

According to Guttmacher, as of May 1, 2010, "abortion is prohibited except in cases of life or health endangerment" in a total of 38 states (out of 51, they are counting DC as a state). These are:

outlawed at 20 weeks: NC (1 state)

outlawed 24 weeks: AL, AZ, AR, CA, CT, ID, IL, IN, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MI, MO, MT, NE, ND, OK, TN, UT, WA, WI, WY (24 states)

outlawed at "viability", which is a non-specific point in time usually left to the abortion doctor to decide at what point an unborn human is "viable" or not: FL, MA, MN, NV, NY, PA, RI, SD (8 states)

outlawed at "3rd trimester", again non-specific, but generally agreed to be 28 weeks: GA (where the case above took place), IA, SC, TX, VA (5 states).

Now keep in mind that of these 38 states with some form of gestational age restrictions, every one of them waives the restrictions for "cases of life or health endangerment". Some states waive restrictions in cases of rape or fetal anomaly as well. Guttmacher lists those specific to each state on page 2 of this document:

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

And according to Guttmacher there are a total of 13 states WHICH HAVE NO GESTATIONAL AGE RESTRICTIONS at all, they are: AK, CO, DE, DC, HI, MS, NH, NJ, NM, OH, OR, VT, WV

Jocelyn, she doesn't even need a "medical reason" in Georgia. On-demand abortion is legal here for any reason up until the third trimester! We have clinics here that advertise up thru 26wks 6 days for elective abortion.

Ashley, first you said:

That's not true. In almost every part of the country, abortion is illegal at 24 weeks without a medical reason.
Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 10:35 AM

Then when called out you said:
It's illegal in Ohio. That's why so many women traveled long distances to Tiller's clinic in Kansas for late-term abortions

So which is it? You claim late-term is illegal in "almost every part of the country", but the only evidence you can provide is to list one single state?

"And she's not pro-choice. She's just honest."
Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 11:00 AM

You should give that a try sometime :)

I REALLY don't believe that an embryo is something to get all worked up about and treat like a baby, though.
Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 11:00 AM

Ashley an unborn human being is called an "embryo" up until the 8th week of gestation. After the 8th week it is called a "fetus". So is that the point in time when we should get all worked up about it? 8 weeks gestation? When it's no longer called "embryo"?

Or is it when the mother begans to recognize movement from the unborn human inside her, as you mentioned? Because for some mothers that can be as early as 13-14-15 weeks gestation, others may not notice until 20-22 weeks, and some mothers feel little to no movement at all during the entire pregnancy! I had a friend whose placenta was positioned in such a way that she never felt her unborn human move, even at full-term. So should we not get all worked up about it then? Keep in mind that just because the mother does not notice or recognize movement inside her, the unborn human is still moving! A simple ultrasound can confirm this. Unborn humans are kicking, rolling, rocking, squirming, and flailing months before the mother is able to detect the sensation.

When Ashley, please tell us? WHEN EXACTLY, at what point in a pregnancy does the unborn human suddenly get rights and abortion is no longer acceptable?

I don't give a s*** about embryos, to be honest. They have very little worth to me. They're future babies, and nothing else. That's my personal opinion.

But I think my views are in line with Roe v. Wade: no restrictions in the first trimester, some in the second, and lots of restrictions in the third. Or I could say I agree with the language of the Freedom of Choice Act, which starts severely restricting abortion at viability (generally accepted as 22-24 weeks).

Edited by Moderator Bethany at 2:49

"I REALLY don't believe that an embryo is something to get all worked up about and treat like a baby, though."
Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 11:00 AM

Is it OK to drink and smoke and do drugs then since we don't need to treat it like a baby, we should not be held accountable for anything we do during pregnancy, right?

"I don't give a shit about embryos, to be honest. They have very little worth to me."

When was your abortion(s) Ashley?

Ashley,

I felt my baby was a baby from the first moment I had any idea I was pregnant. I practice Natural Family Planning (NFP) so my chart told me several days before I even took a pregnancy test. The EPT pregnancy test confirmed what I already suspected--I was pregnant with a BABY. Termonology and "feelings" don't change what IS. The baby IS a baby no matter how early in development he or she is.

Just because a woman doesn't "feel pregnant" doesn't change that she IS. Feelings come and go, especially when pregnant when emotions run hot and cold.

I knew I was going to have a baby and that abortion wasn't an option because from the very moment my child was conceived that child was a person. The developments later on just confirmed what I had known from the very start of when I knew I was pregnant. Babies don't just suddenly become babies magically at some distant time in the pregnancy, they always are babies from the very moment an egg and a sperm join together. What else can they possibly be? We're all masses of cells and tissues, we all develop and change in how we look and function, but it doesn't change we are human persons, just like conception and birth don't change that the fetus is a baby from the very moment that sperm joined with that egg.

I know a lot of women who know they ARE Pregnant and that the feelings have nothing to do with the reality which is a pregnant human woman is pregnant with a human child.

Like I said, a woman's feelings doesn't change what is. And what is...is that the pregnancy is a baby from the very moment of conception. Egg + sperm = human baby. That's what they do, egg + sperm has never equaled anything else. That's basic biology.

I don't give a sh!t about toddlers, to be honest. They have very little worth to me. I really don't believe that a toddler is something to get all worked up about and treat like a full grown person, though.

If you disagree with the above, Ashley, then I suggest you reconsider your logic. Human beings do not grant worthiness to other human beings. Either all have inherent value, or value is arbitrarily determined to benefit the powerful. See also: the Holocaust, Cambodian genocide, Sudanese genocide, slavery.

Which side of human rights history do you want to be on?

Ashley - No swearing allowed. Thanks.

Ashley,
Roe V Wade legalized abortion.

Doe V Bolton allowed abortion through all 9 months of pregnancy.

They were handed down the same day.

I'm not sure why antis don't get that the "embryos are equivalent to toddlers!" argument is stupid and will never work with me. No one--at least not anyone sane--grants as much worth to an embryo as a baby. I've never seen parents mourn a miscarriage at 8 weeks the way they would if their ten-year-old was killed in an accident. Also, anti-choicers reveal all the time that they think fetuses have more worth the closer they get to being a baby. Why does Jill always use the term "late-term abortionist"? I never hear her say "early-term abortionist." That's because everyone knows that late-term abortions are worse, because fetuses close to birth have more value. So she feels the need to let you know if a doctor performs them. And why the targeting of Tiller and Carhart with such intensity? Don't you supposedly believe that the birth control pill causes abortion? Why aren't antis picketing pharmacies the way they did Tiller's clinic?

So is a zygote equivalent to a toddler? If so, lots of zygotes are expelled from the uterus during menstruation and never implant. I have my period right now, and I'm having sex, so maybe there's a "baby" there. If I take a picture of me holding a bloody tampon, can I post it here? You say it's the same as a picture of me holding my baby (or my dead baby, maybe). Pro-life!

I think it's perfectly sensible to restrict abortion more and more as the pregnancy progresses. It's legislating our SHARED belief that abortion is more morally problematic the later it becomes. (You can deny it, but the "late-term abortionist" label and the intense targeting of late-term doctors gives you away.)

I've never seen parents mourn a miscarriage at 8 weeks the way they would if their ten-year-old was killed in an accident.

Of course you haven't seen it, Ashley. Who would come to you for comfort over their loss through miscarriage?

I did mourn my child in exactly the same way I would mourn over my born children, and I know many, many women who have and still remember and grieve over the loss of their babies (less than 16 weeks) years after the fact. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Grief over miscarriage is most of the time a silent and lonely grief, because women are afraid to share their feelings of extreme pain because of insensitive people like you, Ashley. They feel forced to grieve alone.

So can I post the tampon picture? There might be an adorable baby there.

And one woman's experience (Bethany's) isn't universal. My mom had a miscarriage and didn't grieve. I doubt she was hiding it from me, since I was about 5. She later told me, "I've had a miscarriage and a baby, they're not the same." So your experience isn't at all shared by all women. Also, if you've never lost a child, how do you KNOW you'd mourn the same?

I'm sorry that you have not been able to get over your abortion, Ashley. It has to be very difficult.

Ashley, how does your mom know it's isn't the same? Has she ever lost a born child?

Also, how does ones feelings about something change reality? There are women who don't feel anything when their born children die. Does that mean that born children are not human beings? Your logic is arbitrary and illogical.

"I've never seen parents mourn a miscarriage at 8 weeks"....

What an insensitive thing to say!!!! Do you even know any parents who lost their babies in miscarriages? I do! My childhood friend experienced two of them... Their first miscarriage happened around 12 weeks (if I'm not mistaken)and they were even able to see the body of the baby. My friend mourned a very long time, she had a depression and needed therapy. I don't think they had a funeral, though I never asked her that, she's very sensitive to this topic and we live in different countries. Other of the miscarriages happened at 4 weeks gestation, and you can bet they mourned that baby too! He/she was already part of the family and my friend had to go back to therapy so that things wouldn't go back to full-blown depression. And I've known her for 25 years, she's such a positive, optimistic, strong person. So, please, Ashley, save your insensitive remarks about people who experienced miscarriages.
Happy to inform that in between the miscarriages they had a healthy and happy baby boy, which they say is the only joy and hope in the sadness they have about their lost babies.

Ashley, were Susan Smith's children real people?

After all, she took them and drowned them, without feeling any remorse for it, or any grief after their passing.

According to your logic, if they were not grieved over by their mother, they must not be human beings.

Ashley,

YOU might not have seen a woman mourn a child lost to miscarriage, but I have, more than once. I know women who have had more than one miscarriage who have mourned each one with heartfelt grief.

I've seen women cry over miscarriage.

I've seen at least one woman cry over a miscarriage that took place when she was only 2 weeks along.

I've seen women remember the exact dates of the miscarriage and can tell you exactly how old their child would be today if they hadn't had the miscarriage.

YOU might not have seen this, but I have.

Ashley, I can understand why a friend of yours who has miscarried might not come to you for comfort. If you don't view embryos as any big deal (since they don't mean sh*t to you), then why would a grieving woman confide something that personal to you?

Typically, we seek out those who would give us comfort or at least be supportive and sympathetic in a time of loss.

Add me to the list of people who know women who have grieved significantly over an early miscarriage.

"the "embryos are equivalent to toddlers!" argument is stupid and will never work with me. No one--at least not anyone sane--grants as much worth to an embryo as a baby."

Instead of dismissing the argument offhand, why don't you make an attempt to dismantel it philosophically. Tell me why an embryo is not equivalent to a toddler.

Beyond human DNA, what makes a human entitled to personhood?

"No one--at least not anyone sane--grants as much worth to an embryo as a baby."

Ashley, I would grieve the loss of my husband significantly greater than I would the loss of you. However, this does not make him inherantly 'worth' more than you.

I miscarried my baby at 8 weeks. I cried for weeks and ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. It's been three years and I still cry about him. The loss of this child is towards the top of my list of my life's traumas and I have had quite a few.

I can understand that if you deny the reality of something, it cannot be traumatic for you. Humans are able to severly rationalize traumatic events, including murder.

I am also interested in hearing your response to what Lauren asked of you. Why is an embryo not equivalent to a toddler?

Peace.

Ashley...I knew a girl who took an EPT 5 days before her period was due and it was positive. About a week or so later she started bleeding. The doctor was pretty sure she had had a very early miscarriage but couldn't confirm it with absolute certainty since it was soooo early. Yet this girl cried and cried and went into a deep depression over a "clump of cells" and yes at this point the baby truly was only a ball of cells but human nonetheless and alive. This had still been HER BABY and she mourned her offspring as such.

I found out I was pregnant via bloodwork. I was 13 days pregnant. The instant love I felt for my son who was a ball of cells was STRONG. If I had lost him I know I would have grieved deeply.

But as someone else pointed out, other people's emotions towards us do not determine our humanity. My son was human in the womb because he was, not because I "wanted" him. I want a Coach bag for my birthday. Is it now human? Afterall, I want it!

Ashley Herzog, who exactly are you anyway?

Are you a schizophrenic?

I typed your name in Google, and found you as a conservative columnist who has written a book about how feminism hurts women, and who has appeared on Sean Hannity.

Then you have your blog, which has pictures of the same person with the same name, with liberal articles. (And obviously you troll this blog with those same liberal viewpoints.) Same bio, same everything except the point of view!

So what is the deal? Please explain. Who is Ashley Herzog, really?

I'm really confused now too, Bethany.

How does a woman, who has felt her child moving within her, go ahead and extinguish its life? Is it because she doesn't look into her baby's face?

Why not give the child up for adoption?

If you go back and read my columns, I was never very socially conservative. In the last few years, I've become pretty liberal (or libertarian) on all of these issues, including gay rights and women's rights. All of my most-read columns are about economics. Google my column "Socialism, college style" for a sample of how I think on THAT issue.

Sean Hannity brought me to New York and had me on because I'm good. I'm talented at what I do, and the producers were fully aware of how liberal I am socially. They pulled up my blog as easily as you did. They know I'm 100% libertarian.

It's too bad you can't accept I'm a successful person for my age (24), got on Fox, and am still pro-choice.

So can I post a tampon picture? There might be a baby there. Can we all coo over how their might be a little baby on the tampon?

And I don't understand your shock, anyway. Sean has liberals on all the time. Bob Beckel was on with me, who's a hardcore left-winger and disagrees with me on ALL the economic and national security issues.

"It's too bad you can't accept I'm a successful person for my age (24), got on Fox, and am still pro-choice"

Yup, look up the word 'success' in the dictionary and there's Ashley. Oh wait, her pic's next to the word 'arrogant' too. Wow, again you find her beautiful face by the word 'denial'.

Would it make you feel better about your abortion if you post a picture of your tampon here Ashley?

Hang tight. Maybe your photo holding your tampon will appear next to the words 'class act' in the dictionary soon.

Ashley, where did I dispute that you are talented? I think you are a talented writer.

And exactly what would that have to do with anything? The fact that you had to bring that up makes me wonder if you are insecure about yourself.

I can't help but think that it is very odd that you are so liberal when you write in some places, but conservative when you write in others. Maybe you haven't figured out who you really are yet?

I won't dispute that. Sometimes I think abortion is horrible and want to be pro-life, other times I want to be strongly pro-choice. Internal conflict? Probably.

Anyway, I'm 24 (going to be 25 in November), and all I want is a baby. I used to think getting pregnant would be the end of the world, but now I want one so much that I'm willing to disregard the rules about getting married first. It's probably a biological urge, but I can't say for sure. I just know I feel it.

Ashley, I can understand having internal conflict... I would love to think that one day you would take a stand for life and use your talents to protect babies who can't speak for themselves.

I can definitely understand about wanting a baby so much... I hope that one day you will be blessed with one, and with a man who will be committed in a relationship with you and who will be supportive when you have a baby. There are some good guys out there...I know sometimes it doesn't always seem like it, but they are out there.

Please, please Ashley for your sake and your future children's sake, don't disregard getting married before you have a baby. Please, please don't base major life decisions on feelings but on truths.

I don't know if this could be the case with you but women who have had an abortion often 'feel' an urge to have a baby fairly soon after. My friend had an abortion at age 19. She didn't 'feel' ready to have this baby. However just two years later (when she had no more money, had dropped out of college and started drinking and doing drugs) she 'felt' ready to have a baby with a divorced man with 5 small children who was 20 years older than herself. I think there is a name for this.

Ashley, please keep reading the comments from the wise people who post here.

A wise person learns from her own mistakes. A wiser person learns from others' mistakes for there is not enough time to make them all yourself.

" Sometimes I think abortion is horrible and want to be pro-life, other times I want to be strongly pro-choice. Internal conflict? Probably."

That's your conscience. Believe it or not many of us were once pro-choice, some even strongly so. For all your protestations, I'm glad to read that you can see the horror of abortion.

I probably will be married first. And trust me, my boyfriend isn't a divorced dude with 5 kids. He's actually my age and a really good guy. He wants to get married first, but he already said abortion is out of the question. Sometimes I get "baby cravings" and keep thinking about it, even though I know we should get married first. I don't want to be irresponsible, though.

Actually, I'm not even sure how I feel about abortion. Sometimes it seems so wrong, at least for me. Other times, I want to say it's not the government's business.

Keep praying Ashley and listen to that little voice! The Truth is waiting for you. If your BF treats you well and he is prolife and you love each other, these are very good signs for a healthy marriage. My parents (both prolife) dated for 9 months, married and had my brother 12 months later. They are still very happily married 46 years later. I personally believe that if your BF is totally prolife, he deserves to marry a prolife woman so I pray you will think hard about your mindset. It does end up being a big issue over the years.

I married the father of my first son when he was three. He had pressured me to abort our son but I am thankful I never buckled. I rationalized he would come around and I could change him. Had I been raised differently, I think I might have aborted. I am now married to a prolifer and what a difference! I have found there is a huge difference in the mindsets of prolifers and proaborts.

You will find nothing but love and concern from the prolifers here (although I admit some of us can be a bit sarcastic at times -- this is out of frustration at least on my part in trying to get through to others who I believe are in denial in one way or another.)

Peace.

Now that's a surprise! At first I thought I'm seeing double.... :)

"I don't give a s*** about embryos, to be honest. They have very little worth to me." Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 12:41 PM

"Anyway, I'm 24 (going to be 25 in November), and all I want is a baby." Posted by: Ashley Herzog at May 14, 2010 9:00 PM

Let me get this straight... All you want is a baby, but you don't really give a s*** about embryos???? Well, honey, without an embryo there will be NO baby! And in your logic it seems that once you get pregnant you won't give a s*** about it for the first few months, it's only an embryo at that time after all, what's all the fuss about it and why women stop drinking and smoking at that time I don't understand, it's not a baby surely, not even a fetus! Or you don't give a s*** about fetus too?
On the sunny side, nice to see Ashley opening up about her confusion wether she's pro-life or pro-choice, I think honesty right from the very beginning would have saved everyone a lot of time and effort.

Ashley: I'm 23 (24 in less than a month), and I've got "baby cravings" too, although financial/educational circumstances mean that I'm not going to be able to get married until I'm nearly 26. Hang in there. :)

Good morning, former embryos!!!

I have to go make breakfast for my four former embryos now but wanted to hop on to say HAVE A GREAT DAY!!

From Carla, a former embryo

Good morning to Carla and all Former Embryos,

Good day to you too!!! Off to see my former embryo play in his first baseball tournament of the season.

From Praxedes, a potential senior citizen

Ha ha ha! Carla, you are one great former embryo if I may say so!

My son has a t-shirt that says "former embryo" and he gets a lot of comments on it when he wears it. It really makes you stop and think...weren't we all embryos once? I am glad my mom gave a s**t about me when I was one. Or else I wouldn't be here and neither would my beautiful little boy.

:) You are one of my fave former embryos, Sydney!!

I love when you say to a proabort that we were all embryos once they say that it would have been fine with them if they had been aborted!! Good thing they weren't aborted so they could make a statement as freakin stupid as that.

thought this was about jessica and killin her child not about smashing who is right and wrong on how far you can be to have an abortion. jessica is a stupid dope head that needs to get he r life straight and stop gettin pregnant and aborting children anyways and needs to take care of the child she has and stop smoking up the dope and letting her mom raise her child. i hope she does get to go to prison. some one else could have raised that child and loved it you should think about people who cant have children before you go gettin pregnant and killin kids 2x's a year!