Bethany,
My 2 yo just saw the pics over my shoulder. She says, "Oh, so cute!" She loves babies.

Love,
Milehimama

That is so sweet, Milehimama, my children do the same thing when they see Blessing on the computer.

Children aren't afraid to speak the truth, are they?

I visited the old hippie's site; they seem to get a kick out of painting us as weirdo's and kooks. Too bad they don't own a mirror.

May Blessing rest in peace.

Bethany-

even if I agree with them politically, shunting the blame on you is ridiculous. Yes, is a risk, but the fact that someone did this just shows how wacko people can be. I dont know what disturbs me more, that someone did this or that people think it's perfectly fine.

If I have time I'll write up a post on my blog for you Bethany. Don't think it'll do much since my readership is essentially be non existent, but Ill get the opportunity to rant about how ridiculous people can be.

Those comments are nasty. A lot of them seem to me to be like they are bitter and have a lot of anger issues.

Dan, thanks! I do appreciate that while we totally disagree on positions, that you and I can agree on this. I also appreciated Leahs' comment in the last blog post about this, which was along the same lines as yours. (I'm afraid that you two may be in the minority in the pro-choice community, unfortunately.)

Lizfromnebraska, it appears to me that most of the women who lash out in such a vindictive way, are post abortive. This was confirmed in one of JJ's posts either today or yesterday:
http://unrepentantoldhippie.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-funny.html#73640

I think that for them, admitting the unborn child had any worth at all, would totally crush their world view, and make them have to face the reality of what they've done to their children. I feel sorry for them, and I wish I could help them.

Evil is as evil does...

Dan do you need to register to comment on you blog?

Bethany, I am very sorry that everyone will not just let Blessing rest in peace. She was a little cutie, I'm also glad your children can understand what happened. They all seem like very bright and caring children.

I have a question and if you don't want to answer this it is ok and you can totally just delete my comment if you want and I will completely understand because I definitely don't want to offend you or upset you and if I do I am truly very sorry from the bottom of my heart. My question is, I remember reading on your blog that you had two miscarriages and then you found out why you had the miscarriage. Do you plan on trying to have more biological children?

Hey all. People like JJ and the other commentators that Bethany mentioned need our prayers. They are so saturated, so deep in the culture of death. Probably many people have given up on them. Right now, everyone who reads this and who prays, say a prayer for them. Storm the gates of heaven for them!

BTW,
Dan, you're a good man!

This reminds me of victim blaming in the case of rape. You know how they always want to know what you were wearing and what you said and if you were drinking or whatever.... it doesn't matter, a rape is a rape. It's not the victim's fault.

Bethany don't let other people blame you, that's all I'm saying.

Jess-

I think you need an email or blogger account. I think anonymous comments are disabled because I didnt want any spam or anything showing up, so it'd likely you need to do something.

I'm sorry I already prayed to God for one favor today Bobby. I don't like to bombard God. I usually never pray for anything, just to try to bring myself closer to God, but it was kind of an emergency. Oh yeah and he answered it!

Bethany-

I'm not so sure we're a minority, I think it's simply a vast group that is the majority feels no need to really vocalize themselves that much on the net. I know all my friends think im insane for discussing issues/posts here and for blogging, lol.

That post is likely to be done later tonight or tomorrow by the way :)

And as of tuesday I might not have net access for the week, I'm goin down to Florida to see my grandparents. Itll be...interesting.

Bobby-

thanks for the compliment.

Jess, never worry about bombarding God with prayers. We're told to pray without ceasing. God loves for us to pray.

I have a question and if you don't want to answer this it is ok and you can totally just delete my comment if you want and I will completely understand because I definitely don't want to offend you or upset you and if I do I am truly very sorry from the bottom of my heart. My question is, I remember reading on your blog that you had two miscarriages and then you found out why you had the miscarriage. Do you plan on trying to have more biological children?

I'm not offended, not one bit! ;-) Yes, I absolutely plan on having more, if God allows it. I never was able to find a cause. I had 8 tubes of blood taken at once to test for many different possible causes, and each one was concluded that it was not the cause. So it may have been something that will never happen again. I will not know until I become pregnant.

My husband and I have done nothing to prevent pregnancy, since after I recovered from the last one. :-) nothing at all...no birth control measures of any kind.

Danielle, it is so good to see you here again. How are you? I hope you are well!

I have to leave now to go eat dinner with hubby. Will talk to you all later!

I am sure there's a prayer out there on EWTN for post abortive women..... The one woman sounded like she was going back and forth between Jekyl and Hyde personas, saying she doesn't believe you really lost your child, that you made this whole thing up. And saying an abortion is like a miscarriage - no, abortion is always deliberate. Miscarriage is never deliberate.

Liz this may seem like a stretch but I'm wondering what you think. So there have been studies showing that coffee may lead to miscarriages. Now say a woman always drinks a lot of coffee. She miscarries and it is somehow shown to be coffee related. Is that a miscarriage or abortion?a

@Jess: Did she deliberately drink the coffee, knowing it could cause a miscarriage?

And if she eats red meat and miscarries are you going to link red meat to her miscarriage?

What about if a woman ate a BLT, a green vegetable salad and drank a glass of milk, and miscarried, are you going to blame that?

What do you mean by "a lot"? Do you mean the super size cup at Starbucks?

I think by now that a lot of women know to limit their caffeine during pregnancy.

I think by now that a lot of women know to limit their caffeine during pregnancy.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at April 18, 2008 7:30 PM

If I got pregnant yesterday I would have never known that. And I lovveee Dr. Pepper, so I probably would've accidentally killed it right then and there.

"@Jess: Did she deliberately drink the coffee, knowing it could cause a miscarriage?"

Rae hits on an excellent point. The main difference between miscarriage and abortion is intent. It's like the difference between suicide and accidental overdose. If you put a lethal dose drugs in your coffee and drink it and die, you have committed suicide. If, however, those drugs accidentally fall off of the counter into your coffee and you drink it and die, your death was accidental and not suicide. True, after the fact, it would be near impossible to tell the difference, but the fact remains that there is an objective truth there, even if we do not or can not know it. God love you, Jess.

What happens if she knew it could cause a miscarriage but choose to take her chances, believing she would be lucky? Or if she didn't believe it?

Well, like any situation, it depends on the context and the level of knowledge and risk that is involved. I mean, I won't lie, it can be difficult to make the distinction. For example, if a mother is driving to the grocery store with her child and decides not to buckle him up because it's a short trip and then gets into a car accident and the child is killed as a result of not wearing his seatbelt, is that considered murder? She took a very small risk by not buckling her child, but unfortunately it backfired. She probably knew that seatbelts save lives, but for whatever reason this time chose not to use it. She didn't intend the death of the child, but sadly she could have prevented it. To me, I don't think I would consider the women morally culpable of murder; irresponsible, yes, but not a murderer. And most likely I would say that that's the case in a situation where a women in a pregnancy takes a risk by having a coke or something. But each situation is different. I wish there was a nice big answer. I guess that's one way I would give an example to think about moral principles one might consider when assessing a miscarriage vs. abortion situation.

Bethany:

The only thing pro-aborts understand is hardball.

It's time to play.

I am going to do EVERYTHING in my power to go national with your story.

We'll see how courageous these people are when they not hding behind monikors.

You see people like this can only be one thing and that is COWARDLY.

Bethany-

my post is up, excuse me if its discontinuous, wordy or has misspellings, I'm dead tired. Definitely tell me anything you want me to add, change, tweak, etc. This one's for you, and Blessing.

Very nice article Dan. Two thumbs up for you! :)

Bethany - I think Blessing is the most beautiful baby in the world! God bless you!

As MK said the other day, once somebody accepts abortion, there are no limits of depravity of which they can go.

Rae-

Thanks :)

Bethany,

I went over this blog ( JJ )

I encourage pro-lifers to look at what kind of people these are:

http://unrepentantoldhippie.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-funny.html

this people are pure evil. Laughing at Bethany baby Blessing...

Of course, they screen there comments over there, they can't handle the truth to well...

jasper-

the admin (JJ) claims otherwise, and did allow bethany, and myself a few minutes ago, to post.

thanks Dan btw for calling them out on there crude comments...

jasper-

I call them as I see 'em. I also think its pretty contradictory to be pro choice and then mock/laugh/etc a woman who had made her choice (thoough for Bethany it perhaps really wasn't one in a way) but was not allowed to follow through with it due to outside forces. The whole idea behind being pro choice is giving the woman that opportunity to choose and go through what she wants to go through. Unexpected things such as miscarriages happen, but should not be mocked or made fun of, the choice is being made for the woman. It may not be something that can be stopped, but its still choice being ripped away in a sense.

Liz this may seem like a stretch but I'm wondering what you think. So there have been studies showing that coffee may lead to miscarriages. Now say a woman always drinks a lot of coffee. She miscarries and it is somehow shown to be coffee related. Is that a miscarriage or abortion?

It's kind of hard to know which studies are true and which ones aren't. I am still not totally convinced there is a link between caffeine and miscarriage, however, with all of the things I heard about caffeine and miscarriages, I wasn't about to take any chances. My husband and I both switched to decaf and have been drinking it that way since at least 3-4 months ago(he wanted to also for other reasons, so it worked out great!).

I think that if you willfully drank coffee hoping that it would cause a miscarriage, it would be abortion if the baby miscarried as a result.

However, if, as you said, the woman had heard the stories and just didn't know whether it was true or not, she wouldn't be quite as guilty if it happened. However, she still would have been a "cause", however not through a willful action.

I think Bobby gave a very precise example, about seat belts. Really good analogy, Bobby.

my post is up, excuse me if its discontinuous, wordy or has misspellings, I'm dead tired. Definitely tell me anything you want me to add, change, tweak, etc. This one's for you, and Blessing.

Dan, that was unbelievably sweet and thoughtful. And so unexpected too.
I think you have a big heart.

Bethany - I think Blessing is the most beautiful baby in the world! God bless you!

(((hugs))) Janet!

Bethany-

thank you for the compliment. My mom tells me that all the time. That, and idealistic, lol, which I admit I tend to be. I see and look for the best in people, and don't give up on them until it hits home that there's nothing else I can do. My mom raises an eyebrow whenever I mention a new friend who happens to be a girl, I seem to befriend "damsels in distress" as she puts it, perhaps thats partly because of that heart, lol. It'd explain a lot :)

You must be from the south, Dan. Are you? :)

Bethany-

Nope. Born in NH, moved to MA when I was about 5 or 6 and lived on the North Shore ever since. I'm a cynical New Englander, haha.

Bethany,

Thats 2 friendly people from the North. Dan and I.

LOL!

@Bethany and Jasper: I'm from the North too- sort of. :) I used to live in Rochester, NY.

@Bethany: I hope you do know that there are PCers right here on this blog who were disgusted by what that jerk did to those photos, and I have no doubt in my mind they'd be very upset by those other "PCers" [re: jackasses] on that other blog.

I say pay them no mind...I think they only strike out like that because of the anonymity the internet grants them, and I would like to think they wouldn't be so b*tchy and cruel in real life. I could be wrong though.

Rae,

thats 3.

...seriously though, there is a segment in the left-wing blogosphere that because increasingly crude and demented. Some of these sites are quite awful and mean.

The odd responses from abortion supporters to Bethany's story are for the purpose of shielding themselves from the grief that they would be feeling from their own circumstances, if they allowed it.

Health care workers sometimes have odd behavior or responses in the face of death, as a way of preventing the grief, because there's often too much death to emotionally process in the usual way. It's different, though since the health care workers aren't purposely causing the deaths.

@Jasper: Yes they are. Immature too. I'd like to start a left-wing blog that's a bit more mature and tempered, but I doubt it would be received well by the rest of my unfortunately idiotic ideologues. This not to say I agree with them on all issues, because I don't. Overall though, I would consider myself a wee bit of a lefty (though I am physically a righty...okay, that was a piss-poor attempt at a joke).

Haha Rae, lefties are needed though! baseball pitchers that is!, a shortage of good ones in the majors.. actually thats true...

Rae-

you're always welcome to write for me ;) haha, though readership is essentially zero so it may just end up being a waste of time. *shrug*

@Dan: I'll definitely consider it. Thanks for the offer!

@Jasper: Yeah...the Twins are idiots- getting rid of Santana like that (I actually know absolutely nothing about baseball, lol).

I mean c'mon Jasper, if there were no lefties in the world, who would you make fun of? :-p

Hey, hows college going (Rae and Dan), you must be close to finishing the semester...

@Jasper: I'm kinda panicking. I graduate in a year and I've come to a point where now I have no idea what I want to do with my life after graduation. Once again I'm having a crisis of confidence...not sure if I have the "mad skillz" needed to get into graduate school for microbiology- definitely not sure if that's even what I want to do (molecular biology pisses me off waaaaaaaaay too much).

*sigh*

In other words...not too hot, even though I'm doing pretty well in my classes, even physics.

Rae-

hey, anytime. It'd be nice to see more posts up there regardless, lol.

Jasper-

Not quite there yet, next year. Full tuition/fees to UMass Boston. If all goes according to plan this summer I'll be renting right across from campus, so it will be good :)

I got a 3.75 GPA this quarter though, however thats not including my AP English grade and I'm not sure how that will effect it. Still have a 3.62/3.63 cum weighted though :) lol

Ugh, I HATED physics, I'm hoping by some miracle I wont have to take it in college.

Hm. How ruthless and cruel! But you have to respect their honesty. How many pro-aborts will take their disrespect for the unborn to its logical conclusion? After all, if it's just a clump of tissue, why shouldn't miscarriage be a joke?

They might be completely evil people, but at least they have the decency to be consistent.

@Dan: I hate physics too. I took AP Physics (non-calc based) in high school and passed...for the expressed purpose of not having to take it in college. Unfortunately, my school is evil and they're making me take calc-based physics. Fortunately, it's pretty much the same and since ~spring break, I've been skipping class 2-3 times a week and my grades are still pretty good. :)

Ah, lucky. I avoided physics at all costs this year. Trying to get myself outta chem in college right now. That, english, and calc if I pass all the exams this year, and I should get credits for US and European history.

"So there have been studies showing that coffee may lead to miscarriages. Now say a woman always drinks a lot of coffee. She miscarries and it is somehow shown to be coffee related. Is that a miscarriage or abortion?"

This is actually a hot topic in my family right now! ;-)

I stayed away from everything that I was suppose to, and changed my diet to go along with "What to expect when your expecting" book. And I had 3 miscarriages. My sister, who didn't follow anyone's advice and still drank coffee and coke all day long has never had a miscarriage. It's anyone's guess as to what will cause a miscarriage and what wont. From all the people I've talked to it seems that most women never find out why they miscarried.

But to answer your question, I think Rae and Bobby gave great answers. The only people who will know if something like that was truley an abortion or an accident is that person and God. This is where we cannot judge someone. We do not know what is in that persons heart.

Rae -

"I'd like to start a left-wing blog that's a bit more mature and tempered, but I doubt it would be received well by the rest of my unfortunately idiotic ideologues. "

From the people I have met on here, I think it would get alot of traffic on it. I actually know alot of pro-choicers that would rather have a lefty place to go where there is some good honest debates with the other side. I think that is why this blog is a success.

"This not to say I agree with them on all issues, because I don't. "

HAHAHA - I have the same problem! How many conservatives do you meet that uses only environmentally safe cleaners, homemade soaps with Goats milk, preaches on saving the trees (use Bamboo!) and believes in animal rights? I love being a rebel!

@Valerie: How many liberals have you met that aren't fond of socialized medicine and are against abortion? :-p

Though to answer your question: not many, that's for sure. Props for being a rebel-rebel like the Billy Idol? song!

Off topic (again): Oh my gosh...Tracy Ullman does an excellent Renee Zellweger impersonation...hahahahaha!

Hello jasper. I'm from the north and I consider myself friendly. Am I friendly? Do you think I'm friendly? I hope you think I'm nice : (

I had for awhile wanted to focus my college education on getting a career at Planned Parenthood. I changed my mind though and am now looking at finding a career with PETA or another animal rights group.

As my friend Nick said, "You won't be happy until you get a job where you'll be shot at."

Heh, I hope I wont be shot at after I get out of college, course it all depends how hard I push, whether I try to actually enter the political arena myself or not, and whether or not I'll actually make any money, seeing as how poli sci majors make like 30 grand/year on average.

Rae, I'll try to answer your question tomorrow (hopefully if I get a chance) or Monday when I have time to reply fully. :-)

"I always think of ACR as the evil Webmistresses boudoir.

We have a lot of f****ng class. Doncha know.

I will say again. Her story is fake, and fabricated.

But it sure gets sympathy don't it?
pale | Homepage | 04.18.08 - 9:31 pm | #"

http://unrepentantoldhippie.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-funny.html#73773

It is really sad to me, to think that their position on abortion is so insecure, that they must believe that my miscarriage was a lie, just so that they can continue believing that the unborn child is no more than a clump of cells resembling a prawn. It speaks volumes of their lack of confidence in their position.

"and believes in animal rights?"

Ah! Valerie! We have a lot to talk about my friend! : D

treat the unborn child as a worthless object and deny grief by ridiculing mourning mothers who have lost their children either through abortion or miscarriage.

Bethany, who do you really see do this, though?

Pro-Choicers know that some people want to have kids very much - it's not saying the unborn are "worthless."

For denying grief, I don't think it's really arguable that some women don't regret miscarriages often, and sometimes abortions too. Obviously, those feelings are there at times.

What I see as precious is your feelings, and it's in poor taste to make fun of the pictures as the alterer did.

There's plenty oif ridicule on both sides of the argument.

I'm sorry they are treating you and Blessing this way Bethany. The cruelty in this world is truly disheartening sometimes.

Bethany, who do you really see do this, though?

You're kidding, right?

That's what the post was about, Doug. The post was about some people I saw really doing that.

@Bethany: I hope you do know that there are PCers right here on this blog who were disgusted by what that jerk did to those photos, and I have no doubt in my mind they'd be very upset by those other "PCers" [re: jackasses] on that other blog.

I do know that and certainly do appreciate it. Those who speak out against it, like Dan, are the ones who best represent the other side of the argument.

I say pay them no mind...I think they only strike out like that because of the anonymity the internet grants them, and I would like to think they wouldn't be so b*tchy and cruel in real life. I could be wrong though.

I think that may be a factor, but I think that the ones who strike out in this fashion are definitely affected by abortion in some way or the other.
I think the ones who lash the hardest, as JJ does, are hurting terribly as a result of their abortions. I think that their lashing out at those who care about their babies is a way of convincing themselves that their abortion was okay. Like I said before, if they had to accept that there was worth for these unborn children, and that they truly are humans, and loved by sane, rational, caring people, they would have to accept the reality of what they have done, and that would be so devastating that they aren't willing to take that chance.

The only way to keep themselves feeling sane is to continually criticize, mock, insult, and degrade pro-lifers, calling them "fetus fetishist", "anti-woman", and many other names, simply because they love their babies, in an attempt to paint them with the "crazy" brush.

I think that people like Dan are not so deeply affected by our love for unborn children, because it is not a threat to him like it is JJ. (Dan's kind nature also comes into play, of course).
He truly believes that he represents choice, and not abortion, and this is why my love for my baby does not affect him personally, and he can allow it to be true in his mind, that I feel this way.

However, for people who have actually had abortions, they can never see it that way anymore. They have to build up some kind of defense mechanism after having abortion, and one of those defense mechanisms can be this type of hateful reaction towards those who respect life.

This is my opinion, and I'm not trying to force it on anyone- that JJ is suffering from her loss, and she doesn't even realize it. I wish I could help her.

Atm, thanks for the kind words.

By the way, I went to your blog..you do some beautiful scrapbook pages! Really beautiful.

What I see as precious is your feelings, and it's in poor taste to make fun of the pictures as the alterer did.

Sorry, Doug....but I'm really amazed at how PL'ers will use MUCH stronger words than PC'ers regarding these pictures. IMO, "poor taste" is like a slap on the wrist. Surely you can do better with wording, so why didn't you?

B,

I couldn't agree with you more. I look at those pictures and I see pain. Raw pain. Someone is hurtin'!

There are words from our side that can sound just as harsh. How is someone like Hal ever to realize that what he did was wrong, if he is always on the defensive, being called a murderer...? How is he supposed to trust the pro life movement with the most painful insight of his life, if he knows ahead of time that we think of him as scum?

The only way to reach people like JJ is to make her realize that there are some of us, that don't care what was done yesterday. We are only interested in today, and how we can help.

Your response is a great beginning to getting that message across. God Bless JJ and God bless you, Bethany...

Huh! that anonymous was me...don't know where my name went. My 18 year old was using my laptop last night and "switched users"...guess that means I have to re "sign" in...

Jess -

"Ah! Valerie! We have a lot to talk about my friend! : D"

YES, yes we do.

Just repeat after me: PETA bad; ASPCA good!

PETA really doesn't do much for true animal rights because of the horrible publicity they crave - many ending up in court for animal abuse - They turn many people away from real animal rights issues.

ASPCA actually does alot of GOOD! They have pushed for laws to be passed (remember the cock fighting legislation a couple years ago? You can thank the ASPCA for that getting to the media and pushing it through the courts - PETA just did another "nudist show".) oh - and Sarah Mclanchlan is a supporter of ASPCA. ;-)

www.aspca.org/site/PageServer

www.peta.org/

Just browse through the websites. You will see that one is for the law and the other is for radical behavior that is in it for the "shock" value.

Also, another note:

Just go to the news section of google and put in "peta kills" and see for yourself. (remember to go to the 'news' and not the web or you'll get all the biased stuff.)

Okay - coming off my high horse now!

MK -

"How is someone like Hal ever to realize that what he did was wrong, if he is always on the defensive, being called a murderer...? "

I couldn't agree with this more!

"How is someone like Hal ever to realize that what he did was wrong, if he is always on the defensive, being called a murderer...? "

Hal is on the defensive because Hal doesn't think it was murder. PL'ers believe, (and please, tell me if I'm wrong here & I'll go away forever) that abortion IS murder.

Carla also posts here alot, and I'm 99.9% sure that Hal reads her posts and can clearly see how we love her and don't hold her past against her because she is REPENTIVE. Hal isn't. Will Hal ever be???? Who knows. Only God can change hearts, and only God can convict a person of their wrongdoings (sin) whereas the BECOME REPENTIVE. Hal doesn't believe in God. Will he ever??? Who knows. I pray for Hal, and I love Hal. I hope one day Hal does repent, because I beleive that Hal did have a hand in murdering his children. I don't hate Hal because of it. I pray for Hal.

People like JJ and Hal know how we feel about post-abortive women. They know we care about and are willing to wrap our loving arms around each and every one of them. All of them deny the value of each and every life. Many of them deny God. We are mocked and ridiculed by these people not only for our belief that EVERY life has value, from the moment of conception, but most importantly that we believe that this life comes from God.

"Hello jasper. I'm from the north and I consider myself friendly. Am I friendly? Do you think I'm friendly? I hope you think I'm nice : ("

yes I do Jess. I think the breakdown is between faithful and non-faithful people rather than north and south. Although there are agnostic people who are kind as well...

Bethany, I just went to JJ's blog (ewwww!), and I'm amazed at the depravity and heartlessness there. It's almost laughable that at first they were so shocked by your story that they had to post about it ... but soon their opinion morphed into "it's a fake story, it's really a 52-yr-old man"!!! What in the world??

Just wanted to say, though.... that you did a really nice job responding to them.

Keep your chin up :)

Bethany,

I loooove you! Don't let these cruel people get to you. The only place they can exist with their cruelty is on the internet, because they wouldn't DARE do stuff like this in the real world. They're cowards, all of them. All of us stand behind you and Blessing.

Valerie thank you so much for the information! The one thing I do like about PETA though that I think the ASPCA lacks is a lot of information on the meat industry and leading a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle.

I don't think Hal would say abortion was murder unless his wife did. I mean, what would happen to their marriage if all of a sudden Hal starting looking at his wife as the murderer of their children?

It always upsets me when the father has no problem with abortion then suddenly decides he wanted to be a father and decides to take his anger out on the mother.

mk: "How is someone like Hal ever to realize that what he did was wrong, if he is always on the defensive, being called a murderer...? "

I agree. Perhaps it is easier to call him a murderer here because we don't have too look into his eyes and say it. Would we dream of saying that to someone we are looking at face to face ? I think it's important to imagine we are standing face to face with everyone we respond to on this blog. Of course, there are a few people who are never going to "get it", but, looking into their eyes, after all, we are looking into the eyes of Jesus.

"They will know we are Christians by our Love"

Of course, there are a few people who are never going to "get it", but, looking into their eyes, after all, we are looking into the eyes of Jesus.

Not if they don't have Jesus in them!

Janet,
I love you to death, but I'm really disagreeing with you, mk & val on this one. I truly believe that Hal is a murderer, because Hal never repented of his murder. He is still in his state of sin...murder. I have NO problem calling Gacy a murderer to his face. Likewise, I would have no problem calling Hal a murderer to his face, either. I wouldn't do it in a screaming, banshee-like way, but I would indeed say, "Hal, you are a murderer - what you did was very wrong".

I believe by not standing strong in the truth that abortion is murder, and those who commit abortions are murderers, we are caving in to them wanting to remove that stigma from them. Thus, 10 or so years from now, women and men who abort their children will no longer have that negative, moral stigma on them. Then what? We lose the fight. We can no longer claim that abortion is wrong, because we didn't believe that those who commit it are murderers, thus abortion can't be considered murder or morally wrong.

Do we really want to go there?

Isn't God in all of us JLM?

Jess,
No. It's when we accept Him that we live IN HIM...not the other way around.

JLM:

It's OK that you disagree, thanks for your preface.

I'm not saying abortion isn't "murder". My point is that I am not going to call some one I've met on a blog "a murderer". There is a difference between addressing the sin and the sinner. I will be as truthful as I can without being accusatory "and let the readers make their own conclusions based on what I've written. I don't see any harm in that.

Janet,
No harm at all! To each their own, I guess!

quick question, though....do you feel that if I call Hal (or any other non-repentive murderer) a murderer for aborting their child(ren) which IS murder, am I wrong for accusing him/them as being such?

JLM:

I know we see things differently here, so please don't be offended.

I don't see it as my duty to accuse someone of their sin when I know they have sinned. . Now, if he were my brother, I might want to depending on the circumstances...but a total stranger? No.

That said, I know you see it as part of your duty as a Christian, right? I don't condemn you for doing it, it does seems a bit self-righteous to me. Maybe that's my "Catholic way" of looking at it, I don't know. It's just how I was raised.

I've got to run do some errands, JLM, but I'll be back later.:)

@JLM: The use of the word "murderer" is not exactly correct. Murder is patently a legal term...it's used to describe legal killing as not all killing is illegal, as in the case of abortion (unfortunately) and killing in self-defense and the death penalty.

I know of many PLers who detest using the phrase "Abortion is murder" because well...it's not. It's killing. It's homicide. But "murder" is a legal term, so it's incorrect to state that abortion is murder when it's legal. It is legal killing.

If abortion were illegal, I can definitely see how it could then be defined as "murder" or "manslaughter" or something, but at the moment, no. It's not murder.

So Hal is not a murderer. He did not commit a murder.

He did allow the killing of his unborn children, but that is unfortunately legal in the US.

I hope that helps.

It always upsets me when the father has no problem with abortion then suddenly decides he wanted to be a father and decides to take his anger out on the mother.

Jess - why does this upset you?

"What I see as precious is your feelings, and it's in poor taste to make fun of the pictures as the alterer did."

i>JLM: Sorry, Doug....but I'm really amazed at how PL'ers will use MUCH stronger words than PC'ers regarding these pictures. IMO, "poor taste" is like a slap on the wrist. Surely you can do better with wording, so why didn't you?

JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Given that there's no lack of often lame attempts at demonization of Pro-Choicers and "liberals," etc., I reckon that this too shall pass.\

Doug

Haha Rae, lefties are needed though! baseball pitchers that is!, a shortage of good ones in the majors.. actually thats true...

Ha! Right on, Jasper.

P.S. I never really did think that they were possessed by the devil.

"Bethany, who do you really see do this, though?"

You're kidding, right? That's what the post was about, Doug. The post was about some people I saw really doing that.

Bethany, no, not kidding. I think the altered pictures were sent to you, right? Okay,. somebody is trying to mess with you, bum you out, etc. That's not saying the unborn are worthless.

That said, I know you see it as part of your duty as a Christian, right? I don't condemn you for doing it, it does seems a bit self-righteous to me. Maybe that's my "Catholic way" of looking at it, I don't know. It's just how I was raised.

Janet,

Thank you for your response. I'm not offended...please don't ever worry about that! Say what you need to say!

You are correct, though, that I do feel it's my "Christian duty". I don't feel it's self-righteous, though...I believe it's out of love for others that we warn them. I truly, from the bottom of my heart, do not want to see this fate for anyone:

Revelation 21:7-8

He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Regarding the Christian duty again,

Ezekiel 3:18-19

18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

I guess I just take these verses a bit more seriously than others. And that's ok!

I know of many PLers who detest using the phrase "Abortion is murder" because well...it's not. It's killing. It's homicide. But "murder" is a legal term, so it's incorrect to state that abortion is murder when it's legal. It is legal killing.

Rae, it's nice to see that you're as honest as ever and not dependent on the lame pretenses.

Rae,
I don't believe that the semantics of "murder" drawn from worldly views and worldy laws will fair too well on Judgment Day. That's just my opinion, though!

@JLM: That's fine.

@Doug: :)

JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Doug,

I just never saw what they did as "humor"...even "irreverent humor". I found it to be an intentional attempt at hurting someone. There's no humor in that in any way, shape or form. If they thought they were being "humorous" in order to get some type of point across, those intentions are more sick, twisted and demented than what I initially thought their intetions were.

I am so comforted by the fact that Bethany has strength in the Lord!

"not dependent on the lame pretenses."

What pretense do you believe in?

Let me rephrase that, Doug, So the fact that abortion is killing, is a lame pretense for saying abortion is murder? That's a lame argument. Please. God doesn't care about legal semantics, but He does have common sense.

Janet,
12:38....EXACTLY!!!!

Doug: 11:21:JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany

Doug,
Recommended reading on opinion vs. truth:
http://www.ex-atheist.com/Learning%20To%20Think%20Spiritually.html

Sorry, lost most of the last post, here it is in full:

Doug: 11:21:JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany

SORRY......, lost most of the last post, here it is in full, AGAIN. I typed a ? instead of an i on one line):

Doug: 11:21:JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany, not just some unknown person on the internet.

Given that there's no lack of often lame attempts at demonization of Pro-Choicers and "liberals," etc., I reckon that this too shall pass.

So two wrongs make a right? who care's?

Try to put yourself in the other person's shoes, as in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That thought requires right brain thinking. Remember John Mc D's video post?

When your wife asks you, "Do I look good in this dress?" Do you say, " Well, as good a woman might look, necessarily" or "You look as nice as any given woman would"?

You are commenting in a vacuum, without regard for the true person or true feelings or emotion most of the time. What's up with that?

Kristi, Elizabeth, Janet, thank you!

Bethany, no, not kidding. I think the altered pictures were sent to you, right? Okay,. somebody is trying to mess with you, bum you out, etc. That's not saying the unborn are worthless.

Okay, this is a very shallow perception of what happened. Not surprising that the spin master has once again spun the truth into a tangled web of deceit, though. Sorry, Doug, it's true.

If they're not saying the unborn is worthless, then what exactly was their point, Doug? Oh, maybe they wanted to express to me their deep concern for unborn children. Yeah, that's it. @@
Obviously these people couldn't possibly value them any less than the pro-lifers do. Nawww.

Let's dig a little deeper into this, and try to understand intent, Doug. If they considered unborn children to be valuable, would they have done what they did, or would JJ and the others at her blog have equated my child with a prawn, in need of parsley, who looks "delicious"? Or do you think that -possibly, just possibly- it MIGHT be they were demeaning and devaluing unborn life, and mocking a mother who loved her child (which is what I claimed they did in the first place, which you automatically denied)?

Whatever the case, your distorted opinion on this topic is irrelevant to this post, because it totally misses the point.

I didn't write the post to gain sympathy, Doug. Think harder. Glean over all of my comments in this topic- not to mention the original post...maybe you'll figure it out. I don't think I need to explain it again.

JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Like JLM said, irreverent humor? Yeah, like it would be humorous to tell a woman who just lost her child in a car wreck, "HAHA YOUR CHILD DIED! HAHA HAHA!" OH how FUNNY! I'm just dying here at the thought of this irreverent HUMOR!

Humor:
# wit: a message whose ingenuity or verbal skill or incongruity has the power to evoke laughter

Chris, it upsets me when the father either tells the mother he doesn't care or worse encourages her to get an abortion then he decides he's a victim hurt be the mother and blames his trauma on her. Now I can obviously see why a guy would be upset if he wanted the child and was willing to take full responsibility for it or at least care for it, but when he's like, "Oh get an abortion or we're through" or something smilier (I don't think I spelt that right) and then decides he did want to have the baby, well he has to remember he encouraged her to get it. You see I wouldn't have a problem myself aborting but if I ever happened to be with a pro-life man and I got pregnant and he wanted to the child then I wouldn't abort it. If the father wanted me to have the child I would.

I also hate it when I hear stories about people who have sex with someone, get pregnant, and then to their horror realize their boyfriend/girlfriend is pro-life/pro-choice. I made sure I was clear with my bf before having sex. He would rather I didn't have an abortion but he said he realizes that I'm still young and he would want me to choose for myself. Good answer.

You see I wouldn't have a problem myself aborting but if I ever happened to be with a pro-life man and I got pregnant and he wanted to the child then I wouldn't abort it. If the father wanted me to have the child I would.
Posted by: Jess at April 19, 2008 2:20 PM

Why would you want someone else to decide what's best for you? Forgive me if this sounds rude, but I'm just trying to understand.

Dan, thanks! I do appreciate that while we totally disagree on positions, that you and I can agree on this. I also appreciated Leahs' comment in the last blog post about this, which was along the same lines as yours. (I'm afraid that you two may be in the minority in the pro-choice community, unfortunately.)

I hope you get around to reading this, Bethany. I know this thread is a little dated and there are some interesting stories going this weekend, but...

First of all, I have to agree with everything Dan said. I mean, it was a risk you took putting those pictures on the internet, but I clearly remember someone warning you about that when you did post them, but you said you wanted them up anyhow. I am so ashamed that someone who calls herself pro-CHOICE would exploit you like that. Was it not your choice to miscarry privately so that you could bury Blessing? Reproductive choice is what we want, and ridiculing you in such a way is shameful and a low blow.

However, I do want to say that I don't think I'm actually in the minority. Most people I know are pro-choice and NONE of them are as cruel to do such a thing. The pro-choice community online appears to be a very volatile group, but they do not represent the real people who make up the pro-choice community of the real world. My mother, my father, my sister, my aunts and uncles and cousins, my closest friends--none of them are cruel.

What you have to understand is that being on the defensive can often bring out the worst in people--I would know. Very often when I am discussing with my dad the choices I have made in my life I am very defensive, and it is rarely pretty. It takes an enormous amount of self-control to keep completely cool when you are being attacked.

And I understand that pro-lifers often feel attacked as well. But is that not when your worst comes out?

I stand and will always stand by what I told you before. You--no one deserves to be treated the way you were. Even in the heat of debate when you and I are at opposite ends of the table, I will always remember that you are not just Bethany from Jill's site--but you are Bethany, an actual person with an actual life. You and everyone else deserves to be treated as such.

I once heard someone say that there is no such thing as a bad person. While I cannot claim to never have called someone a bad person (my apologies, Jasper), at the heart of it, I have to agree. Who decides the criteria of good- or bad-personhood? People are cruel, people are evil. But people are people.

My apologies, Bethany, on behalf of the pro-choice community. If you are someone who calls yourself pro-choice and you disagree that Bethany deserves an apology, then you should search for a new label.

My deepest sympathy and feelings or respect for you, Bethany. I will remember these sentiments even when I am feeling unkindly towards you. Your differing opinions only make you human--not bad.

God bless.

Jess - thanks for responding thoughtfully.

He would rather I didn't have an abortion but he said he realizes that I'm still young and he would want me to choose for myself. Good answer.

There's a real problem there, and you're probably not aware of it. When a woman aborts a man's child, she's basically telling him he's not her man and that he's not much of a man. To you, he'll shrug it off, because he doesn't want to admit it, but it's really pretty harsh, especially when he wants your child with you. He's also insecure regarding committing to marriage with you.

When we're young we play games, mostly self-deceptive games, thinking that we're in control and we know what's happening. Later in life, doubts that were planted when we were young come back to haunt us. For instance, I don't know if I'm post-abortive. The fact is, not knowing still triggers post-abortive behaviors.

Guys don't know. Even married they don't know, and with a woman who is openly pro-choice, there's a high likelihood she could have, and she wouldn't tell him. Even with his consent, it comes back to haunt them. Abortion disrespects men and sometimes they get angry about it. It may not surface visibly until years later, but it shows itself in other many ways. I know.

I've been dealing with post-abortive men who've been suffering. There's a lot of anger that simmers underneath - most men control it, but it's still there, much more than many would ever care to admit. Some men explode, others meltdown.

I don't care how honest you think your boyfriend is, he's not going to be truly intimate with you and reveal his insecurities if he has one smidgen of doubt that you might use that against him one day. And he's not much of a man if he believes that you alone should decide, because that's an admission he's using you.

The self-deception comes in when we tell ourselves that others are being honest with us, they are being fully intimate and honest about these things, without a ring, a 100% legal and solid commitment and the possibility of completely open sex with whatever blessing you might receive.

Because everything else is doubt and risk.

And I speak from experience.

And he's not much of a man if he believes that you alone should decide, because that's an admission he's using you.

Yup, I would have to agree with that.

One of my guy friends once said to me that if you ask a guy what he wants to do about a baby if that ever happens and he says something along the lines of: "It's up to you, I can't tell you what to do with your body." It's a pretty good bet he won't be around because he's using you. He doesn't really care either way because he's not going to be around...that's why it's "up to you."

Elizabeth-

I'm going to have to call bull. If I fell into that situation, that is dang well what I would say. It IS her choice, regardless, and whatever choice she makes I will be supportive, whether it is to continue the pregnancy or abort. I don't use people, nor do I ever plan to, nor would many of my friends in that regard anyway. If they get someone pregnant, they are leaving it to the woman to decide, regardless of whether or not the decision agrees with their political views, and they will stand by them regardless of the choice the woman makes.

Why wouldn't you tell her you want her to have an abortion or tell her you want her to have the baby? I mean you have wants as well and don't you think she should take those into consideration when making such a decision? Or do you find your own wants not valid enough to state them to this person you are having such intimate relations with? Not having an opinion either way shows a lack of carlessness on the part of whoever says such a thing.

Dan-

Why would you leave your future in the hands of someone else if you really were going to take a part in that future? Wouldn't you want to AT LEAST state what you think is best to do? You can no more make her have an abortion or keep the baby so where's the harm in stating what YOU think would be best. It's not telling her what to do. It's only telling her if you say "If you don't have an abortion, we're over." THAT'S manipulating her and trying to take the choice away from her. But somebody who really cares about another person at the very least, offers an opinion about the very thing that will change both of your lives!

Dan - legally you would have no say in the matter. In other words you don't have a choice and you may not have a voice. The only choice you do have is what you do with the procreative power you have. Does the commitment come before or after?

Have you ever really thought about what it means if your loved one did abort your child on you? What would that say to you?

What if she decided to carry and you didn't want her to - what does that say? You'd be a father against your wishes. Paying child support. Tell me you'd be happy, if you thought she should have aborted. Would you still be supportive with no anger?

I'm saying this seriously because you're contending that you're not using the woman. That there is a some sort of loving commitment there. If there's not a commitment, then tell me how that's not like um.... using her.

Damon Wayan's AbortionMan is far closer to the truth than most people would like to admit.

Elizabeth-

you are correct. I would hope that there would be a discussion on the topic, but I recognize it isn't my choice to make and that it is ultimately up to her. Perhaps I should have been more clear, that's my fault :).

I have to get ready and go to work, so I cant respond further, hopefully Ill remember to when I get back later tonight. Sorry guys, see you in a few hours.

JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world.

Like JLM said, irreverent humor? Yeah, like it would be humorous to tell a woman who just lost her child in a car wreck, "HAHA YOUR CHILD DIED! HAHA HAHA!" OH how FUNNY! I'm just dying here at the thought of this irreverent HUMOR!

Humor:
# wit: a message whose ingenuity or verbal skill or incongruity has the power to evoke laughter
Posted by: Bethany at April 19, 2008 2:11 PM
-----------

There is something happening here that has not been mentioned yet. Perhaps if I told you a true story then such a parallel may make some sense: many years ago a school bus with small children stopped abruptly. Following the bus was a man on a motorcycle. When the bus stopped, he just kept coming and his blood was splattered all over the back of the bus.

The traumatized kids laughed ... yep laughed. When faced with a situation to emote, the kids were perplexed. Similarly when faced with someone who obviously loves a great deal (Bethany), can for some folks be clearly confusing. Strange behavior is .... unusual but not necessarily 'normal'?

So Elizabeth - what's a non-coercive means of talking with a woman about your joint pregnancy, because either way, the two are involved?

Remember coercion can point toward life, or abortion.

Well Chris and Elizabeth, we're both still young and I don't know if he is the one for me. But right now I'm not looking for a serious relationship. We're long distance right now, so I guess I'll have more direction when I move back home for the summer.

John:4:47:

Strange behavior is .... unusual but not necessarily 'normal'?

I can generally follow your thoughts, but you always lose me when you end your post with a question mark instead of a conclusion!

Janet, did you watch the Pope address the young people? Interesting choice of closing hymn... City of God by Dan Schutte...

Bobby,

I watched the first part of the presentations, etc..t but will have to listen to the Pope's address later. I really like the "City of God"!

City of God, by Dan Schutte

1. Awake from your slumber! Arise from your sleep!
A new day is dawning for all those who weep.
The people in darkness have seen a great light.
The Lord of our longing has conquered the night.

Refrain
Let us build the city of God.
May our tears be turned into dancing!
For the Lord, our light and our love,
has turned the night into day!

2. We are sons of the morning; we are daughters of day.
The One who has loved us has brightened our way.
The Lord of all kindness has called us to be
a light for his people to set their hearts free.

3. God is light; in him there is no darkness.
Let us walk in his light, his children, one and all.
O comfort my people; make gentle your words.
Proclaim to my city the day of her birth.

4. O city of gladness, now lift up your voice!
Proclaim the good tidings that all may rejoice!

Text: Based on Isaiah 9; 40:1-9; 1 John 1. Text and music © 1981, OCP. All rights reserved.

I gotta wonder, though, if B16 had ever heard it before today. It's a fairly new (1981 as you pointed out) American hymn.

@Janet,

The concept of a question is to invite thought. Oftentimes, as in this case, there are a host of possible reactions to a thoroughly loving person from a person whose own life is devoid of such caring. Its great (at times) if there is any reaction at all.

In certain circumstances, (I tend to agree with SoMG here) it is likely best to ignore the originator.

John, Gotcha, I think it's the ... that throws me off. Thanks.

Janet,
That's it!!! it is the ...that throws me off, too!!!

(thanks for asking John!)

Ellipses. The three dots in a row are called ellipses. I'm full of useless info.

Bobby!

I went to confession today!

My penance is that I need to start reading the Gospels, so I have to buy a Bible. Eeek!

Hoho! Excellent, excellent. Praise the Lord. I"m so glad to hear it, Rae. You can read the bible online at places like http://www.biblegateway.com/ but I know how it's not the same as holding it in your hands. Hey, do you have a specific bible translation in mind that you're thinking about getting?

No I don't have a specific translation because I don't know which one is the most accurate. I asked the priest at confession which bible he would recommend and he said the "American Bible" Catholic Edition would work. But I dunno. I'd like one that was annotated with stuff to make it a bit easier to understand (ie explaining context of some of the passages based on the literal translations from Greek or Hebrew).

What would you recommend?

So I think he meant the "New American Bible" Catholic edition (NAB). That edition, by the way, is the only one that is allowed to be said at mass (at least in the US). Let's see, for what you said about explaining text as far as Hebrew and Greek go, I would almost recommend the NAB Study Bible. The problem is, you have to be very, very cautious. The commentary was done by a world class Catholic theologian named Father Raymond Brown. However he was very liberal (theologically) and there are a gross number of heretical statements in his commentary questioning the validity of the gospels, Catholic teaching, etc. But it does have a lot of other good info in the commentary and it's a readable translation.

The other popular Catholic translation is the Revised Standard Version (RSV) Catholic edition. This is the one I always use to read, but it has almost no commentary. You can by RSV commentaries, but they are sold in individual books of only the New Testament. However, the commentaries are by Scott Hahn, who is the greatest man on earth.

That's about all I know. The Douay Reims version is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version, so it has a lot of "thees" and "thous" if you're into that kinda stuff. I would say your best bet is an NAB study bible, but be very, very cautious. Also, make sure you see (or read, I suppose) what MK has to say (write). She knows this stuff a lot better than I do.

@Bobby: Okey dokey, thank you! I'll probably go to the bookstore tomorrow and buy one. :)

So why would the only sell the NAB with commentary that is heretical?

Rae, some Christian religions will give you a Bible for free. But those aren't the popular ones. I don't know if being part of the in crowd is important to you : /

"So why would the only sell the NAB with commentary that is heretical?"

That's a good question. Aesthetically, the bible with its binding and everything is gorgeous. I have one, and it looks beautiful. Nice leather cover, etc. Oh wait a sec. Actually, now that I"m remenissing about it, you wouldn't need to get an "NAB study bible" for all the commentary; just any old NAB has all the same commentary. The NAB study bible has sections at the beginning that talk about each of the books of the bible in greater detail; who wrote the book, when, key characters, places, big stories in the book, etc. The reason I mention this is because the NAM study bible is probably $70-80 while you can find any NAB for as little as probably $10.

But back to your question... I dunno. It's an odd thing. I mean, a bible commentary takes a LOT of work, so that could explain why the NAB commentary hasn't really been replaced yet. Ehh, what can ya do? Offer it up as penance :)

Alright, cool. Thank you for the advice Mr. Bambino. :)

I will go take a looksy tomorrow at Barnes and Noble and go purchase one and start readin'...gotta get started on that penance!

I liked this week's Gospel btw. It was nice kind of having an idea what was going on. :-p Our priest did a great job with his homily (in my opinion).

So Elizabeth - what's a non-coercive means of talking with a woman about your joint pregnancy, because either way, the two are involved?

Well, the BEST way is to share your feelings beforehand. If you're at least going to sleep with a person, you two should already have it worked out what you think is the best thing to do in consideration to both of your feelings. Because once one becomes pregnant, the emotions and hormones are raised because of the seriousness of the situation at hand. So people could say harsh things in the heat of an argument they may not mean, and that may change how one feels about the pregnancy altogether. It's best to talk about it first without all the pressure of the ACTUAL situation.

I have the NAB as my translation, chose it out myself on my tenth birthday, not sure who did the translating or notes (not that I look to heavily at the notes, I like to decide for myself, unless something makes me go huh? then I avoid the noes if I can :))

Elizabeth-

we might just agree on something, though another conversation if it happens should be had as well

The "joke" is cruel, no doubt about it.

Making fun of those pictures is the equivalent of the garbage posts that yllas makes.

"However, the commentaries are by Scott Hahn, who is the greatest man on earth."

True Bobby, you can't go wrong with Scott Hahn.

ugh, those people at JJ's (hippie's) blog just dont seem to understand where I'm really coming from at all, ugh.

The fact that they are thinking hoax because a hoax is possible (esp since this is the net) and because they have different political views is just ridiculous. First they seemed to think I wasnt really pro choice, now I'm being called a whiner, ugh, this is just getting to be insane.

Ellipses. The three dots in a row are called ellipses. I'm full of useless info.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 19, 2008 8:14 PM

Thanks! So Bobby, I guess "ellipse" is Greek for "leading someone astray or confusing them", right? :)

Ellipses. The three dots in a row are called ellipses. I'm full of useless info.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 19, 2008 8:14 PM

Thanks! I saw "Expelled tonight." Good!

Regarding the bible: I have a 1995 Paperback copy of the NAB -The Catholic Bible, Personal Study Edition (green cover) and it has one editor, and four contributors listed on one of the first pages, none of which are named Fr. Raymond Brown. Do you think this one is OK? A little tip, I bought it in paperback first, to make sure I liked it, before spending a lot of money.

Rae: If you have Catholic/Christian Bookstore nearby, you might find a better selection there than at Barnes and Noble. (It's true in my area, anyways.) I find Borders has a larger selection of religious books, and of course, Amazon has good prices. You can also find bibles to read in Eucharistic Adoration Chapels at Church, if you can't decide which to buy right away. Good luck!

Dan:10:20:ugh, those people at JJ's (hippie's) blog just dont seem to understand where I'm really coming from at all, ugh.

I'm praying for you Dan. Don't go over there unprepared!

Mine's cheap-ish. Its pretty much paperback but it has some sort of leathery/plastic over it so it doesnt get bent/mishapen or ripped, etc. Nice black color, with silver on the outside. Also a red letter edition, which is pretty nice :)

I dont have a Raymond Brown either, though, like I said, wouldnt really matter too much to me if I did, lol

Janet-

I think I'm prepared, but either way they arent going to like me because I'm a pro choicer siding with a pro lifer/a pro life site and not buying into their idea of the story behind the pictures or of the people that come here. I'm basically being called a whiner and whatnot. It's more annoying than anything else, I've been called worse here, lol

Dan,
You mean your brothers and sisters in choice don't accept you???

I'm sorry. Come over to our side any time...we'll welcome you with open arms & lots & lots of hugs!!! (don't worry...we won't squeeze you to death!)

lmfao, nice try JLM, not gunna happen any time soon :p

Now Pap taylor Dung,
You tell me about that garbage I post, and I'll tell you about the garbage you post.
That Dogmatic Doug can't understand that his eventual logic for abortion is a position of dogma and exposed by writing that "no one has a good argument against abortion", and reveals a person who has ended all intellectual inquiry into abortion as debate or argument. Just as a religion might be considered dogmatic!
That recognizing rednecks from Texas are capable of being born rednecks, and unable to understand that their redneckiness is from being born into a redneck family, with a vision of God that conforms to exaclty what a redneck acts like in life. Such as being "petty", "capricious", "mean" and other character traits of the Texasredneck God god she personally wrote of, and described.
But, funny you use the word garbage since that is exactly where human beings of abortion end up, in the garbage. Projecting again, Pop taylor Dung?

Dan,
"A" for effort, though, right????

Anyway, I just want to let you know that I think it was a really nice thing of you to do...sticking up for Bethany like you did. I know it's your own morals that came in to play as well, but it shows me what a good guy you are. Many people on your side should take lessons from you!

Thank you Dan!

lol, JLM.

Thanks for saying that, means a lot to me. Can't say I entirely blame them though. I was very doubtful and cautious at believing many of the stories I heard here. In fact, I may have questioned the validity of Bethany's story a year ago. I definitely would have found it odd and a bit creepy that it would happen. If I didn't publicly post it, I'm sure I was at least privately doubtful. Hadn't had great experiences with pro lifers online, and many considered me a bit insane/traitorous since I switched camps about 4 years ago.

I dont know about the many having to take lessons though, I think it is more likely that the vocal portion of the community is the ones that are heard/interacted with most in a way. It's like looking at some of these televangelists as the ideal Christians when in many cases it isnt the case and isnt the way many christians think at all. I may be confusing, but hopefully you can understand the point I'm trying to make here, lol.

"Dan,
You mean your brothers and sisters in choice don't accept you???"

I accept you Dan.

Hal, I know.

They clearly dont though, just found this on another blogpost I found interesting over there:

"
Wow, and are they ever long winded! Especially Dan. He never shuts up. Valiant protector of teh anti-abortion, miscarried embryo-photographing wimmins and all. I guess he must have a satan-resistant suit that he wears over here.
Prole | Homepage | 04.19.08 - 9:14 pm | #

Gravatar Dan, the "pro-choicer". Even has a blog set up with stuff in it about Obama, makes him look like a democrat -- yeah, sure. I bet. Uh-huh"

that second paragraph is JJ btw, the site owner over there who basically just told me to get the f**k out in her last post.

I just think this whole thing is hilarious. Because I post here there's no possible way I'm really pro choice, or support Obama, or could survive anything against Christian doctrine, lmfao. I wonder what they would do if they found out just how far left I am (though I'm sure there are people there farther than myself, just a given, lol).

Dan,

You don't realize how far right you are until you go to a site like that. They are goofy and some of them are Evil, with a capital E! It's a game to them. Do you think they are joking about Satan? They are pro-aborts after all.

You are in much better company over here, believe me. I think we get nicer all the time too. :)

Dan,

You don't realize how far right you are until you go to a site like that. They are goofy and some of them are Evil, with a capital E! It's a game to them. Do you think they are joking about Satan? They are pro-aborts after all.

You are in much better company over here, believe me. I think we get nicer all the time too. :)

Isn't it ridiculous, Dan? So much for tolerance.

Dan, I won't be able to post much online today, but I just went to JJ's site again and saw your posts there and I am still just overwhelmed and impressed with your efforts there and had to say something again. Thank you so much for sticking up for me, and for all the rational arguments you have made in my defense. I honestly can't say enough to tell you how much I appreciate it, especially since it comes from someone on the other side of the debate.

In re: to your 12:32 post, I can't believe they think you orchestrated your blog as a ploy to make them "think" you are pro-choice. Amazing.
Are they just totally paranoid? You have been here for over a year (as far as I know you could have been here from the beginning), making pro-choice arguments over and over. All they would have to do is read a bit into the archives to see the truth.

Let's just put the NAB situation this way; if the footnote for Luke 1:20 reads

"[20] You will be speechless and unable to talk: Zechariah's becoming mute is the sign given in response to his question in v 18. When Mary asks a similar question in Luke 1:34, unlike Zechariah who was punished for his doubt, she, in spite of her doubt, is praised and reassured"

which both accuses Mary of having personal sin and accuses God of being capricious, you've got yourself a Raymond Brown commentary.

There is a long, long article about some of the problems with the NAB commentary at http://www.pugiofidei.com/modernism.htm . Then click on the link "The New American Bible: Is It Good for Catholics?"

"You have been here for over a year (as far as I know you could have been here from the beginning), making pro-choice arguments over and over. All they would have to do is read a bit into the archives to see the truth."

It's all part of Dan's master plan, Bethany...

yes, all part of my plan *Burns' fingers) Exxxcellent.

Janet, to be honest, I joke about religion too. I'm not completely politically correct, i am just aware as to when people wont care or when they will.

and Janet, I'm not far right. At all. lol. I'm not even centrist, lol.

Bethany-

think nothing of it.

Janet, to be honest, I joke about religion too. I'm not completely politically correct, i am just aware as to when people wont care or when they will.

and Janet, I'm not far right. At all. lol. I'm not even centrist, lol.

Dan,

There are jokes and then there are jokes. I may sound paranoid to you, but I think you should be very careful with someone (or a web site) who consistently made jokes about satan. The real pro-aborts don't care a thing about Life, and are all about Death.

I know you aren't far right, I wanted to make a point. Over the broad spectrum of values, there are a lot of people who are much further left than you!

Bethany said: "You have been here for over a year (as far as I know you could have been here from the beginning), making pro-choice arguments over and over. All they would have to do is read a bit into the archives to see the truth."

Bobby said: It's all part of Dan's master plan, Bethany...

How true! I'm praying for you Dan! (and Bobby and Bethany, too!)
God bless you all!

"I may sound paranoid to you, but I think you should be very careful with someone (or a web site) who consistently made jokes about satan. The real pro-aborts don't care a thing about Life, and are all about Death."

Janet, you are not paranoid. I've been to these web-sites myself, I believe they toxic to the soul.

I let Jill post the pictures to help people understand how deeply depraved abortion proponents can be. I thought this would demonstrate in the worst terms what they do: treat the unborn child as a worthless object and deny grief by ridiculing mourning mothers who have lost their children either through abortion or miscarriage.

Let me get this straight:

You send photos of your miscarriage to Jill so she can post them, hoping that this will somehow "help the pro-life cause" to pressure as many women as possible in to having unwanted babies until the day when you can finally strip all fertile women of our right to self-determination, and now that an opponent of your sick cause has taken your propaganda photos and made a joke of them, you're crying that they're "deeply depraved" and "denying your grief" and "treating the unborn as a worthless object?"

Oh please! You put the photos out there for political purposes, and now that a political opponent has made a mockery of them, you're crying foul. If you didn't want your embryo treated as an object, you shouldn't have put it out there as an object to be used for political purposes in the first place.

How is a woman respecting the life she's carrying a political purpose? It's a purpose of life or death, in my opinion. I am not surprised that you condone those actions though, Reality.

Expelled claims that an atheistic, amoral scientific elite is barring the door to the consideration of ideas like intelligent design that include a religious component. Yet scientists who are religious also perform science without bringing God in as part of their theories. Scientific theories do not include God because scientific theories must be tested. Testing requires holding constant some variables, and no one can “control” God; therefore, scientific explanations are restricted to the natural causes that are testable. All scientists work this way, whether they are religious or nonreligious. This is a practical restriction on what science can do, not a philosophical or moral restriction imposed by some elite.

...

New scientific views challenge the consensus all the time. Is intelligent design being kept out of the scientific consensus because of some “old boy” network that requires scientists to “go along to get along?” Hardly. New scientific ideas do get a hearing – that is how a scientist makes a reputation, after all.

In the 1980s and 1990s, Carl Woese proposed a radical rearrangement of the evolutionary tree of life, splitting bacteria into two groups and dividing life into three “domains,” rather than the traditional five kingdoms. As he produced new evidence for this approach, his colleagues began to apply his ideas in their own papers. When it became accepted within the scientific community, textbook authors rewrote the chapters on the classification of life, and college professors and high school teachers were glad to modify their lesson plans.

Darwinian evolution and Mendelian genetics both went through a similar process, as did Einstein’s theories of special and general relativity, plate tectonics, Big Bang cosmology, and the atomic theory. We have cataloged a number of recent biological theories that faced intense criticism, surviving and becoming well-accepted and acclaimed, and then were incorporated into pre-college textbooks and curricula.

Thus far, intelligent design hasn’t made a scientific case that its proposals help us understand nature, and the ideas have not generated the sort of research which led Woese’s ideas to wide acceptance. Protestations in Expelled to the contrary, scientists knowledgeable about relevant subject areas have critiqued intelligent design – it has not merely been waved away without consideration (see reviews of classic intelligent design statements like Michael Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box and William Dembski’s The Design Inference) The burden of proof is upon intelligent design advocates to show through scientific research that intelligent design is a useful scientific proposition. If they did, the science-funding agency review panels would gladly fund such research. As things stand now, intelligent design can be considered neither scientific nor useful for understanding nature.

There has been a history of promissory notes from intelligent design proponents, but where is the actual research? Here we can agree with intelligent design proponent Stephen C. Meyer when he says, “The debate isn’t going to be settled by numbers, it’s going to be settled by the evidence and the arguments.” But these arguments must be made to the scientific community, not to the movie-going public.

Expelled makes so many erroneous claims about the science of evolution that it would require several movies to correct the record. Whenever Ben Stein talks about evolution, the viewer should remember that actor-economists are not known for their scientific training. There simply is not time to correct so much misinformation, but www.expelledexposed.com would like to set the record straight on at least some examples.

http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/evolution

So reality - have you seen Expelled yet?

Actually we should move this to the Expelled thread.

I know this has been said, but...
You can be pro-choice and still think that whoever sent those doctored pictures is heartless. Grouping is wrong. Not all pro-choicers are evil like this Barbra lady, just like not all pro-lifers are the psychos that kill abortion doctors.
I am pro-choice and can certainly appreciate your horror and disgust at this person's actions- it's an issue of "does this person have basic human decency or not" rather than an issue of abortion rights activism vs. being pro life.

Ali, thank you for your kind words. If you'll refer to my April 19, 2008 7:46 AM post, you'll see that I do understand that not all abortion proponents are the same, and that not all are nasty like this. I hope that this helps clarify that I'm not painting them all with the same brush. There are a few abortion proponents here who have been more than kind and understanding about this situation.

I hope you see me as one of them! This lady/man is a sicko.

ali-

welcome aboard, you aren't alone. There are quite a few pro choicers here who think its ridiculous and also think doing this is pretty anti-choice in the whole scheme of things.

"JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world."

Doug, I just never saw what they did as "humor"...even "irreverent humor". I found it to be an intentional attempt at hurting someone. There's no humor in that in any way, shape or form. If they thought they were being "humorous" in order to get some type of point across, those intentions are more sick, twisted and demented than what I initially thought their intetions were.

JLM, agreed that it was an intentional attempt to hurt Bethany. I love Bethany - she is a sensitive and extraordinarily committed person, and I appreciate that, even though I don't agree with all her opinions.

She puts herself "out there" as far as being online, and at times people are gonna try to mess with you when you do that. Pap Taylor is right, viewed on its own it's like the clownish weak-minded stuff that yllas does.

Let me rephrase that, Doug, So the fact that abortion is killing, is a lame pretense for saying abortion is murder? That's a lame argument. Please. God doesn't care about legal semantics, but He does have common sense.

Janet, there is no proof of superhatural stuff like you are talking about, gods etc.

No, abortion is not "murder." What is lame is to pretend like your opinion - your likes and dislikes, in this case concerning abortion, makes for "murder or not." It doesn't.

"JLM, the internet is full of irreverent humor, and such is going to happen. I like Bethany a lot and don't demean her feelings at all, but somebody messing with pictures is not the end of the world."

Janet: Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany

Sure, Janet, I can see Bethany's feelings, but I'm not personally irreverent toward her - you don't see me doing what yllas would, for example. Good grief....

There is plenty of "making fun" of both sides of the argument on this blog. If you can point to me actually trying to personally attack Bethany, that would be one thing, but noting how the online existence is isn't that.

If they're not saying the unborn is worthless, then what exactly was their point, Doug? Oh, maybe they wanted to express to me their deep concern for unborn children. Yeah, that's it.

Bethany, their point was to try and mess with you. It's not saying anything, necessarily, about the unborn. People make fun of all sorts of things without it being any pronouncement about things in general.

Ali: You can be pro-choice and still think that whoever sent those doctored pictures is heartless. Grouping is wrong. Not all pro-choicers are evil like this Barbra lady, just like not all pro-lifers are the psychos that kill abortion doctors. I am pro-choice and can certainly appreciate your horror and disgust at this person's actions- it's an issue of "does this person have basic human decency or not" rather than an issue of abortion rights activism vs. being pro life.

Exactly, it was a nasty thing, as nasty or moreso than most of the attempted demonization of pro-choicers that we sometimes see on Jill's blog.

John M: There is something happening here that has not been mentioned yet. Perhaps if I told you a true story then such a parallel may make some sense: many years ago a school bus with small children stopped abruptly. Following the bus was a man on a motorcycle. When the bus stopped, he just kept coming and his blood was splattered all over the back of the bus.

The traumatized kids laughed ... yep laughed. When faced with a situation to emote, the kids were perplexed. Similarly when faced with someone who obviously loves a great deal (Bethany), can for some folks be clearly confusing. Strange behavior is .... unusual but not necessarily 'normal'?

John, for the traumatized kids it's understandable - people do "strange" things sometimes in strange situations. Perhaps there was an element of "we laugh that we may not cry," there, but for small kids I reckon it'd be less likely than for older people. Could it be the kids felt like they were watching a cartoon, something like that? Wile E. Coyote smashing into the canyon floor after making a miscalculation in the pursuit of the Road Runner?

I don't think people are connfused about how Bethany feels. I think they just wanted to mess with her, for their own reasons. maybe just wanting to be "bad" etc. This could be a kid.... It's not any great pronouncement that the unborn are "worthless."

Another example of the famous Dogmatic Doug reducing his logic to that famous two letters of a absolute believer in Abortion;;NO.
No it's not murder because the dogma of Doug has answered, and you must now sulk away because the dogmatic Doug writes the word, NO.
The nope-i- ness answer always ends the debate with a closed minded dogmatist who absolutely knows that "no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do".
You go Doug, No one can argue with a closed minded dogmatist allowing for the intentional killing of human beings. They win every time in their mind.

It's not any great pronouncement that the unborn are "worthless."
Posted by: Doug at April 20, 2008 9:26 PM

Excuse me? Are the unborn worthless according to the Dogmatic world of Doug? Doug, I thought you had more sense then that. Can you clarify at what point in the unborn's life he/she has value?

Remember Truthseeker, there is no debate with a dogmatist(one who knows the absolute truth of his opinion,authority,belief, or statement of ideas ) for the intentional killing of non-person, human beings. Doug wrote the words which exposed his dogmatism at this board, " that NO ONE has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do".
Eventually you have Dogmatic Doug state, as all dogmatist do with the final authority and absolute truth of his opinions and statements with a simple stroke of his pen/keyboard, which is two letters; NO.
You lose truthseeker. Dogmatic Doug wins again, because he absolutely knows the the truth that "NO ONE has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do", which includes you Truthseeker. Move along people, nothing to see here, but Dogma Doug stating his absolute truth for the intentional killing of human beings.

Making fun of those pictures is the equivalent of the garbage posts that yllas makes.

Posted by: Pap Taylor Gang at April 19, 2008 10:08 PM

****

"Equivalent"? LOL maybe, but yllas is just a witch whining for attention.

Smokin'!

Janet said: Let me rephrase that, Doug, So the fact that abortion is killing, is a lame pretense for saying abortion is murder? That's a lame argument. Please. God doesn't care about legal semantics, but He does have common sense.

Doug 9:09: said: Janet, there is no proof of superhatural stuff like you are talking about, gods etc. No, abortion is not "murder." What is lame is to pretend like your opinion - your likes and dislikes, in this case concerning abortion, makes for "murder or not." It doesn't.

OK, wrong choice of words (God) since I'm writing to you. I don't have to talk about God to discuss natural law. My opinion is based on absolute truths of natural law, not my likes and dislikes. How we must act for a society to be "good" - to make it simple. If abortion is not a moral question, but just a choice based on individual opinion, then it shouldn't deserve any more discussion time than the merits of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or whatever. Why waste so much time on something so trivial?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Janet said: Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany

Doug said 9:13: Sure, Janet, I can see Bethany's feelings, but I'm not personally irreverent toward her - you don't see me doing what yllas would, for example. Good grief....There is plenty of "making fun" of both sides of the argument on this blog.

You are ignoring Bethany's feelings, trivializing this as internet humor. How is that NOT irreverent? ("Irreverent" - Lacking respect or seriousness).

Doug, Yllas actually makes a good point once in a while. The other stuff, the attacking, that's just who she is.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Doug said: If you can point to me actually trying to personally attack Bethany, that would be one thing, but noting how the online existence is isn't that.

I didn't accuse you of attacking Bethany. Irreverance is not taking her experience seriously. To you she's just another person with like and dislikes. "The online existence"? Is that the STORY you are referring to, or her relative anonymity? There is a REAL person behind the online existence, which is my whole point. She's more than a name on a blog and the story is real.

The person who posted as Yllas at 1:52 AM was not yllas.

I don't think people are connfused about how Bethany feels. I think they just wanted to mess with her, for their own reasons. maybe just wanting to be "bad" etc. This could be a kid.... It's not any great pronouncement that the unborn are "worthless."

Doug, you completely miss the point again. If the person in question felt that the unborn had worth, they would not have created the images in the first place.

Besides, the photos aren't the damning part anyway. It's the reaction of people like JJ to those pictures that REALLY makes the point of this post.

I hope you see me as one of them! This lady/man is a sicko.
Posted by: ali at April 20, 2008 8:35 PM

Ali, absolutely, I do see you as one of them. :-)

I didn't accuse you of attacking Bethany. Irreverance is not taking her experience seriously. To you she's just another person with like and dislikes.Can you try using the right side of your brain and imagine Bethany's feelings for a minute, if that is possible? Your attitude is irreverent towards Bethany, not just some unknown person on the internet.

Janet, you seem to understand the problem with Doug's posts perfectly.

Doug said 9:13: Sure, Janet, I can see Bethany's feelings, but I'm not personally irreverent toward her - you don't see me doing what yllas would, for example. Good grief....There is plenty of "making fun" of both sides of the argument on this blog.

Doug, with all due respect, what you are doing, your reaction, etc is a hundred times worse than the person who made the photos could have ever done. I don't take personal offense to the creator of the photos, yet I do take offense to your words. The reason why this is will probably never be clear to you until you stop your constant deceptive wordplay/semantics games and learn to deal with reality.

I am pro-choice and can certainly appreciate your horror and disgust at this person's actions- it's an issue of "does this person have basic human decency or not" rather than an issue of abortion rights activism vs. being pro life.

Ali, that is precisely what we said in the beginning, however, it was after the responses of JJ, the Canadian Cynic, and many others, that we realized it was not simply one lone, depraved mind that would sink to this level. We realized that this is a much bigger problem which more radical pro-abortion supporters will condone wholeheartedly in the name of defending abortion. I think that the ones who sink to this level have been affected in some way personally with abortion (many are post abortive), and this is their way of lashing out.

The more moderate abortion proponents, who can certainly be VERY kind and understanding, such as you, or Dan, or Leah, have never personally been affected by abortion, or have never had an abortion yourself, so that you do not feel the need to lash out in such a way when something like this is posted. It doesn't affect you personally if I love my unborn child. However, for someone like JJ, who had an abortion, she takes my concern for my unborn child VERY personally, and therefore feels the need to lash out at me, instead of getting to the root of the problem of why she is actually angry.

I don't know if this helps you see more clearly from my point of view on this or not, but I hope you see what I'm saying.

Abortion can do some awful things to the soul, in my opinion.

How we must act for a society to be "good" - to make it simple. If abortion is not a moral question, but just a choice based on individual opinion, then it shouldn't deserve any more discussion time than the merits of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or whatever. Why waste so much time on something so trivial?

Janet, we don't think it's trivial, in the first place. It's certainly a moral question. That's a premise here.
......

You are ignoring Bethany's feelings, trivializing this as internet humor. How is that NOT irreverent? ("Irreverent" - Lacking respect or seriousness).

No I'm not. I've always realized how Bethany felt about it - she made it plain - and the depth of her feelings. I certainly take her experience seriously, and have never demeaned it. The fact remains that somebody messing with pictures isn't necessarily saying "the unborn are worthless." The picture-messer-wither could have kids of their own and.or want them in the future very much.

No I'm not. I've always realized how Bethany felt about it - she made it plain - and the depth of her feelings. I certainly take her experience seriously, and have never demeaned it. The fact remains that somebody messing with pictures isn't necessarily saying "the unborn are worthless." The picture-messer-wither could have kids of their own and.or want them in the future very much.

Irrelevant.

The reason why this is will probably never be clear to you until you stop your constant deceptive wordplay/semantics games and learn to deal with reality.

Bethany, nope - the only "deception" here is you saying that is necessarily has to be a certain way. The truth is that it does not. I don't know all the motivation of the person who sent you the pictures, but they may just want to mess with you, be cruel to you, etc. There's nothing that says they don't already have kids or want more, etc.

There's nothing that says they don't already have kids or want more, etc.

That is IRRELEVANT, Doug. The idea that they may want kids in the future has absolutely NOTHING to do with their feelings on unborn life.

Yllas 1:29 you are absolutely right!

Bethany, not irrelevant. You want to make a leap or connection where one doesn't necessarily exist.

The fact remains that those who favor legal abortion are not necessarily saying the unborn are "worthless." That is not the whole deal,anyway. There is the pregnant woman to consider, and many people do consider her first; that's not saying that the unborn have no value, etc.

:: laughing :: No, B, you couldn't be more wrong, there. I'm not the one with the dogma.

Bethany, not irrelevant. You want to make a leap or connection where one doesn't necessarily exist.

No, that was your doing, when you used an irrelevant example to try to prove your point about whether the person who made the photos might want kids one day. That has absolutely nothing to do with their opinion of the unborn and you know it.

:: laughing :: No, B, you couldn't be more wrong, there. I'm not the one with the dogma.

Oh certainly you do have a dogma you adhere to, Doug! it's called "utilitarianism".

The fact remains that those who favor legal abortion are not necessarily saying the unborn are "worthless." That is not the whole deal,anyway. There is the pregnant woman to consider, and many people do consider her first; that's not saying that the unborn have no value, etc.

Really? So I guess you must believe that unborn children inherently have value!
Is that what you're trying to tell me, Doug?
Of course not. I'm not that stupid.
You only think they're valuable based on a woman's perception of them. This means that inherently they are indeed "worthless" according to your ideology!

Bethany-

I'm not so sure about abortion personally affecting your life being a part of it.

Has anyone here who's had an abortion and still pro choice weighed in on this yet?

Bethany, I for one do not think the unborn are "worthless".

Bethany.
A pro baby killer posted at this site using my moniker at April 21,2008, 1:52a.m.
Please ban the person who used my moniker.

Bethany.
A pro baby killer posted at this site using my moniker at April 21,2008, 1:52a.m.
Please ban the person who used my moniker.

Bethany.
A pro baby killer posted at this site using my moniker at April 21,2008, 1:52a.m.
Please ban the person who used my moniker.

Janet said: How we must act for a society to be "good" - to make it simple. If abortion is not a moral question, but just a choice based on individual opinion, then it shouldn't deserve any more discussion time than the merits of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or whatever. Why waste so much time on something so trivial?

Doug said (8:34): Janet, we don't think it's trivial, in the first place. It's certainly a moral question. That's a premise here.

According to you it's a morally subjective question. How can moral relativism, which is what you adhere to, be taken seriously? You obviously don't take the actions of these defacers of Bethany's pictures as morally questionable. Because you give those who do it the benefit of the doubt in their culpability.
......

Janet said: You are ignoring Bethany's feelings, trivializing this as internet humor. How is that NOT irreverent? ("Irreverent" - Lacking respect or seriousness).

Doug said: No I'm not. I've always realized how Bethany felt about it - she made it plain - and the depth of her feelings. I certainly take her experience seriously, and have never demeaned it. The fact remains that somebody messing with pictures isn't necessarily saying "the unborn are worthless." The picture-messer-wither could have kids of their own and.or want them in the future very much.

If you took her experience seriously, too follow my previous thought...you would realize that wheter or not the person has kids or may want them is not relevant to Bethany's experience. You are speculating on some unrelated future possibility.

Yllas, I'm sorry that person used your name for that post. I absolutely want to ban the person, but there is no capability to do that on this blog unless the person has registered with typekey, unfortunately.

I was sure to let others know that it was NOT you, because I know it wasn't. (my post at 6:44 AM)

What I can do though, is change the name that is used in that post, that way no one makes the mistake of thinking it is you.

The person who posted it I am pretty sure is the original person who sent the first manipulated pictures to me.

I think pro lifers are the scum of the Earth and not one of them has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do.
Of course this is the dogmatic thinking of Dogma Doug, and I'm just using his moniker to post what Dogmatic Doug absolutely beliefs, feels, and thinks about Bethany to Bobby Bambino.

And remember, I, Dogmatic Doug, enjoy posting pics and emoticon's at this site. I posted that pic at 1:52a.m, using Yllas name. I also posted those perverted pics of Bethany's baby named Blessing too.
Now Dogmatic Doug, enjoy the post since your fellow allies must be defended at all cost including the fraud of using another pseron's moniker to post perverted and depraved pic's of Bethany's baby named Blessing.

I think pro lifers are the scum of the Earth and not one of them has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do.
Of course this is the dogmatic thinking of Dogma Doug, and I'm just using his moniker to post what Dogmatic Doug absolutely beliefs, feels, and thinks about Bethany to Bobby Bambino.

And remember, I, Dogmatic Doug, enjoy posting pics and emoticon's at this site. I posted that pic at 1:52a.m, using Yllas name. I also posted those perverted pics of Bethany's baby named Blessing too.
Now Dogmatic Doug, enjoy the post since your fellow allies must be defended at all cost, including the fraud of using another person's moniker, to post perverted and depraved pic's of Bethany's baby named Blessing.

Bethany-
I'm not so sure about abortion personally affecting your life being a part of it.
Has anyone here who's had an abortion and still pro choice weighed in on this yet?

Dan, not so far that I know of. I am only making an assumption based on my experience (with post abortive women who deny that abortion is wrong) - , please understand that I'm not trying to make an absolute statement, but simply trying to put the pieces together and understand what would cause these women to lash out in this manner.

Gee Doug,
You finally told the board exactly how you feel about Bethany and Bobby. I can respect that and I enjoy those perverted pics you send to this site.
Your truly, JJJ.

Bethany, I for one do not think the unborn are "worthless".

SOMG, I know. I really wish that you felt the unborn were worthy of protection, too.

can people please just not use other people's names to try and make them look bad? ugh, this whole thing is starting to explode.

Yllas, I sent you an email.

Dan,
Let's just ignore this ignorant person, I'ts obvious by their writing style which posts belong to them.

To all those here who pray, let's say an Our Father :

The Our Father

Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
now and for ever. Amen.

"The Lord's Prayer "is truly the summary of the whole gospel." "Since the Lord...after handling over the practice of prayer, said elsewhere, 'Ask and you will receive,' and since everyone has petitions which are peculiar to his circumstances, the regular and appropriate prayer (the Lord's Prayer) is said first, as the foundation of further desires."

- Tertullian, De orat.
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; 2761.

My typing is so bad! Please bring back the preview please!

I think that for them, admitting the unborn child had any worth at all, would totally crush their world view, and make them have to face the reality of what they've done to their children. I feel sorry for them, and I wish I could help them.

Posted by: Bethany at April 18, 2008 6:58 PM
*******************
Youre making up things, Bethany.

Ah Texasredneck is back from invading small Texas towns as all modern rednecks do on weekends. Yep, we get on our hog, with all the appropriate approved Texasredneck scooter riding equipment and poison Mr. Hanky in Comfort, Welfare, or even Fredricksburg.
What a typical Texasredneck, who always writes to people that they are "making things up". Eventually this Texas oxymoron will accuse every poster at this site of "making things up". It's another way of saying NO, to end a debate and prove your always as right as Dogmatic Doug.
On a personal note, did you stop on the side of the road and pray to the bluebonnets and paintbrushes while defecating and vomiting your Chimay beer in the streets of Waring?
Typical Texasredneck, and a tattoo on that nine inch bicep is a must for modern Texasrednecks of course. And their back road bit-- always has a rose tattoo somewhere on them of course to complete that modern Texasredneck authenticity.

Keep vomiting yellowass - youre not good for anything else

Youre making up things, Bethany.

For what reason would I have to make up things that would make me feel sorry for the persons who said these things, rather than to just be angry with them?

It makes no sense, TexasRed.

I think that for them, admitting the unborn child had any worth at all, would totally crush their world view, and make them have to face the reality of what they've done to their children. I feel sorry for them, and I wish I could help them.

Posted by: Bethany at April 18, 2008 6:58 PM
***************
Youre making up things, Bethany.

For what reason would I have to make up things that would make me feel sorry for the persons who said these things, rather than to just be angry with them?

It makes no sense, TexasRed.

Posted by: Bethany at April 21, 2008 3:14 PM
**************************
What makes no sense is why you have to invent things about total strangers rather than just come to terms with the fact that they dont see things the way you do. You need to pretend that if these people "only understood" it would "crush" them because they would have to "face the reality" of what they "did". You cant come to terms with the simple fact that people do NOT see things the same way you do and they arent ever going to see things the same way you do, and that does NOT make them 'wrong'.

You cant come to terms with the simple fact that people do NOT see things the same way you do and they arent ever going to see things the same way you do, and that does NOT make them 'wrong'.

Neither does the fact that I see things differently than you, and will not ever see things the same way as you, make me "wrong".

You cant come to terms with the simple fact that people do NOT see things the same way you do and they arent ever going to see things the same way you do, and that does NOT make them 'wrong'.

Neither does the fact that I see things differently than you, and will not ever see things the same way as you, make me "wrong".

Posted by: Bethany at April 21, 2008 3:55 PM
*****************************
You have every right to view your pregnancy any way you want to. Every woman has that same right. But insisting that everyone should have some obligation to agree with you and live their lives according to the rules you want to make for them is quite another matter. You keep insisting "those people just dont understand". They understand perfectly. They just dont agree with you.

Texasred, You insist, at least once a day, but sometimes it can be dozens of times a day, that I and others agree with what you say, or you'll say that we're "idiots", or "imbeciles", "delusional", "fantacizing", or "trying to pretend". Don't you think you're being a bit hypocritical by claiming that I am trying to "force" you to believe anything simply because I hold an opinion? I never said you had to agree with me. And I never even called you an idiot.

And your e mails to JJ are revealing of what typical Texasrednecks do while vomiting up that Chimay beer on the side of the road in the hill country of the friendly state.
What happens to
Texasrednecks is they wear their bandana, with a Texas motiff printed on it, soo tight, that it makes them think their redneck reality is not actually a Texasredneck reality. It all began as a Texasredneck child who thinks God is a petty cruel capricious God. Most Texasrednecks try to overcome their inbreed "anti Catholic redneckinesss", which is reflected in their version of God, by riding big fat scooters on weekends and picking bluebonnets to match that bluebonnet tattoo on their sagging chest.
But, Texans always laugh at those modern rednecks,who invade small town Texas on their Harley's while selling them some imported beer and watching them vomit up that $10 dollar a bottle beer. That is why you always mention vomit in your post, since every weekend being a typical Texasredneck, you puke up a storm after being typical loud mouth redneck at the bar.
And I can also tell your a imported Texasredneck, who got to Texas as fast as you could by being a typical loud mouth military brat stationed in the friendly state.
Which is why your amazed at my desciption of you Texasredneck and have not denied one word of me describing you to a Texas Tee.
Pinche Pendejo. Go brush your teeth Texasredneck. Wheee, another one goes over the head of the typical Anti-Catholic Texasredneck.

Correction; Go brush your tooth Texasredneck.

There's nothing that says they don't already have kids or want more, etc.

Posted by: Doug at April 21, 2008 8:43 AM

Doug,
Honestly, I can't imagine any woman with children would do this.

yllas,
You crack me up.

Thank you Sandy.
One thing I know is the typical mind,feelings, gods, and thinking of Texasrednecks.
And we got us a real life Texasredneck, with Canadian conections, who post the most rednecky thoughts on this board. Now, those East Texas rednecks got a thang about staring at strangers coming to their towns on the weekend. Which is why your modern Anti-Catholic Texasredneck, always avoids East Texas as a stop on their weekend of flooding the sewers of small town Texas. Which is why I know our personal Texasredneck always rides in a hundred mile circle of Austin. Mostly to the West and south to Comfort. Going anymore south and they might be unable to understand why they got stared at for being a typical "rhinestone redneck". Besides, the best jerky is in Comfort, Tx., where their bubba's are still making jerky soft enough for them to gnaw on with that tooth they have left from having the rest knocked out on Saturday night. Seems those anti-Catholic Texasrenecks can't keep their mouth shut when their tanked up on that imported beer and wine. Of course, our personal Texasredneck has her tooth left, from running the minute she saw he 250lb, beer belly(with appropriate nine inch biceps from working at that high tech businesss in Georgetown) boyfriend getting a shi- kicking from having to back up his "old lady". But for good jerky, think the "square jaw brothers", next to the antique store in Comfort, where Texasredneck buys those wagon wheels and milk jugs to decorate their modern Texasredneck limestone houses.
It's a hoot having out own typical Texasredneck posting at a pro life site and amusing me with her Texasredneck mind that knows every anti-Catholic site in the universe.

Who would put a "LOL" on the end of that statement?? Sick person.

I know ryan, right? If I ever find out who is doing this...

:: laughing :: No, B, you couldn't be more wrong, there. I'm not the one with the dogma.

Bethany: Oh certainly you do have a dogma you adhere to, Doug! it's called "utilitarianism".

Nope - and if you look up the definition you'll see that that's not what I'm talking about. "Utility" isn't it, and I'm not saying it's for "the most people," etc., i.e. that that's the greatest "good," but rather that it's an individual thing - me wanting women to have the freedom they do, and the individual woman determining her course.
......

"The fact remains that those who favor legal abortion are not necessarily saying the unborn are "worthless." That is not the whole deal,anyway. There is the pregnant woman to consider, and many people do consider her first; that's not saying that the unborn have no value, etc."

Really? So I guess you must believe that unborn children inherently have value! Is that what you're trying to tell me, Doug? Of course not. I'm not that stupid. You only think they're valuable based on a woman's perception of them. This means that inherently they are indeed "worthless" according to your ideology!

No. Again, it's not saying anything about the unborn, necessarily, it's saying let the woman decide.

Yes, value is a perception, but it is fact that many pregnancies are wanted. They are not worthless in the eyes of those who first and foremost make the valuation.

I do agree on the intrinsic/inherent stuff - yes, I am not saying there is any positive or negative value prior to "somebody" caring one way or another. Yet when you say, "worthless," that sounds to me like "valued negatively," or "bad," and that is not what I mean.

yllas: I posted that pic at 1:52a.m, using Yllas name.

:: laughing :: No, I didn't, Fruit Loop, not at what would be 2:52 a.m. my time.

What happened - somebody apparently gave you a taste of your own medicine, and immediately you start whining and moaning for them to be banned....? Heh heh heh now that's rich.

"Do not slander."

"Do not write inflammatory comments just to wind people up."

Yllas, you are a message board troll who constantly violates Jill's rules. You getting all sanctimonious about stuff is ludicrous.

No. Again, it's not saying anything about the unborn, necessarily, it's saying let the woman decide.

Of course the unborn don't even come into the argument for you, Doug. Because you think they're worthless! Duh!

Yes, value is a perception, but it is fact that many pregnancies are wanted. They are not worthless in the eyes of those who first and foremost make the valuation.

Well duh and more duh's, Doug. Isn't that what I just finished saying at 9:03. Of course.

I do agree on the intrinsic/inherent stuff - yes, I am not saying there is any positive or negative value prior to "somebody" caring one way or another. Yet when you say, "worthless," that sounds to me like "valued negatively," or "bad," and that is not what I mean.

I honestly don't care what you "feel" it means. Or how you "feel" it comes across. That is totally irrelevant.
You literally think that unborn are worthless inherently, and that's the point.

Worthless:

lacking in usefulness or value

Lacking worth; of no use or value.

valueless

Useless

Destitute of worth; having no value, virtue, excellence, dignity, or the like; undeserving; valueless; useless;

"The fact remains that those who favor legal abortion are not necessarily saying the unborn are "worthless." That is not the whole deal,anyway. There is the pregnant woman to consider, and many people do consider her first; that's not saying that the unborn have no value, etc."

Really? So I guess you must believe that unborn children inherently have value! Is that what you're trying to tell me, Doug? Of course not. I'm not that stupid. You only think they're valuable based on a woman's perception of them. This means that inherently they are indeed "worthless" according to your ideology!

"No. Again, it's not saying anything about the unborn, necessarily, it's saying let the woman decide."

"Yes, value is a perception, but it is fact that many pregnancies are wanted. They are not worthless in the eyes of those who first and foremost make the valuation."

"I do agree on the intrinsic/inherent stuff - yes, I am not saying there is any positive or negative value prior to "somebody" caring one way or another. Yet when you say, "worthless," that sounds to me like "valued negatively," or "bad," and that is not what I mean."

B: Of course the unborn don't even come into the argument for you, Doug. Because you think they're worthless! Duh!

Wrong. That is not what I said. The point is that it's not only the unborn which are considered. And if the "worthless" you mention actually means valued negatively or "bad," as above, then somebody feeling that way would likely not be Pro-Choice, IMO - they could well be as anti-choice as any Pro-Lifer, as in "people should not continue pregnancies."

"Yes, value is a perception, but it is fact that many pregnancies are wanted. They are not worthless in the eyes of those who first and foremost make the valuation."

Bethany: Well duh and more duh's, Doug. Isn't that what I just finished saying at 9:03. Of course.

Well there you go - thus, let's leave the decision up to the woman or couple.

"I agree on the intrinsic/inherent stuff - yes, I am not saying there is any positive or negative value prior to "somebody" caring one way or another. Yet when you say, "worthless," that sounds to me like "valued negatively," or "bad," and that is not what I mean."

I honestly don't care what you "feel" it means. Or how you "feel" it comes across. That is totally irrelevant.

No it's not. Look at one of the definitions you gave - "undeserving." That is not what I am saying. That would really only fit with somebody saying that "pregnancies should not be continued," and that's not Pro-Choice.

And of course "valueless" doesn't fit, either, because we know there are all sorts of valuations made.

No it's not. Look at one of the definitions you gave - "undeserving." That is not what I am saying. That would really only fit with somebody saying that "pregnancies should not be continued," and that's not Pro-Choice.

Undeserving INHERENTLY, Doug. That is what you believe. You believe that the worth of the unborn is determined SOLEY on the woman's feelings and perceptions, which means that the unborn according to you is VALUELESS INHERENTLY, UNDESERVING INHERENTLY, WORTHLESS INHERENTLY.

And of COURSE I don't agree with you (7:12), you jerk.

Bethany, I'm not just trying to get you all worked up. I'm sorry somebody tried to hurt you with the altered pictures.

You believe that the worth of the unborn is determined SOLEY on the woman's feelings and perceptions

Statements like this are what I disagree with. Worth is a matter of perception, but I do not say it's only the woman's feelings which are to be considered. I've already said I favor the restrictions that most states have at viability or thereabouts, so it's not just "all the woman, all the time." Aside from that, I do feel the woman's valuation should take precedence.

If you are saying that I don't go with the idea of intrinsic value, then I can agree. IMO "undeserving" sounds negative, not just neutral, so it wouldn't be the same thing.

And that's what I originally disagreed with - if those favoring legal abortion see the unborn as "worthless objects," does that not sound negative, rather than neutral? Honest question - it sounds to me like "good for nothing" when we already know that many pregnancies (in fact, the great majority of them in the US) are wanted, often to a great degree.

And that's what I originally disagreed with - if those favoring legal abortion see the unborn as "worthless objects," does that not sound negative, rather than neutral?

You don't change reality based on how something "sounds" to you. It is what it is, Doug. Man up and admit it already.

You believe that the unborn have no worth until the mother decides they do. Just like cow manure that you spread over a garden has worth to some people, but to others, it's just cow crap.

The unborn is simply a dumb, worthless object to you (oh yes, let me clarify for you that I understand that you claim it is only until a moment of magical viability), and I really don't care to hear any more of your lame justifications for that. I really don't. It truly sickens me. But I know you must have the last word and prove to me that somehow you can work your way out of "really meaning that", cause you don't like the way it "sounds", so go right ahead.

Janet said: How we must act for a society to be "good" - to make it simple. If abortion is not a moral question, but just a choice based on individual opinion, then it shouldn't deserve any more discussion time than the merits of vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or whatever. Why waste so much time on something so trivial?

Doug said (8:34): Janet, we don't think it's trivial, in the first place. It's certainly a moral question. That's a premise here.

According to you it's a morally subjective question. How can moral relativism, which is what you adhere to, be taken seriously? You obviously don't take the actions of these defacers of Bethany's pictures as morally questionable. Because you give those who do it the benefit of the doubt in their culpability.

Janet, I not only take them as morally questionable, I flat-out say they are bad and mean-spirited. Yet that does not mean that all pro-choicers feel a certain way about the unborn? No.

You asked, "why waste time..." and I'm just saying it's not a waste of time - that we care and want to do it (it IS a moral question), and that's even before we talk of externals and absolutes or not.

......

Janet said: You are ignoring Bethany's feelings, trivializing this as internet humor. How is that NOT irreverent? ("Irreverent" - Lacking respect or seriousness).

"Doug said: No I'm not. I've always realized how Bethany felt about it - she made it plain - and the depth of her feelings. I certainly take her experience seriously, and have never demeaned it. The fact remains that somebody messing with pictures isn't necessarily saying "the unborn are worthless." The picture-messer-wither could have kids of their own and.or want them in the future very much."

If you took her experience seriously, to follow my previous thought...you would realize that whether or not the person has kids or may want them is not relevant to Bethany's experience. You are speculating on some unrelated future possibility.

I didn't say it was relevant to Bethany's experience. Heck, I'm sure it's not.

"And that's what I originally disagreed with - if those favoring legal abortion see the unborn as "worthless objects," does that not sound negative, rather than neutral?"

You don't change reality based on how something "sounds" to you. It is what it is, Doug. Man up and admit it already.

I simply asked you a question, Bethany. How about just answering?

Of COURSE it sounds negative. Because it IS.

Okay, thank you.

:: laughing :: No, I didn't, Fruit Loop, not at what would be 2:52 a.m. my time.

Actually, you have posted past 2:00 in the morning before:

Why buy the car when you get the marshmallow peeps for free?
Posted by: Doug at March 24, 2008 2:32 AM

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/03/the_baby_borrow.html

Actually, you have posted past 2:00 in the morning before

Well sure, but yesterday was a work day for me, and I packed it in about 11:00 p.m. the prior night. 3:00 a.m. is about 3 hours before I had to get up [groan].
......

"Why buy the car when you get the marshmallow peeps for free?"

I saw a good one in that vein, per the old "Why buy the cow when you're getting the milk for free?"

Why buy the whole pig just to get a little sausage?

@Doug,

just a point of clarification on the 'unwanted' issue:
Agreed ::: some/many women experience 'unwanted pregnancy'. Does this( 'unwanted-ness') imply anything at all about the fetus ... is he/she unwanted too?; pre-criminal?; disabled?; or future-darling?. Is the value of a fetus determined by the aspects of the fetus or by the impacts (raised hormone levels/morning-sickness/weight-gain/etc) that pregnancy entails?

Bethany,

Are you getting a trash can ready for Doug-dumping?

Bethany,
He's not even worth wasting the garbage can on. I hear you in your post at 8:17am
Only in Doug's warped world of relativism can worth be "a matter of perception". Some creatures like human beings have an instrinsic worth that is independent of how others see them. Of course, if you don't believe that man is made in the image of God, then you can believe it's okay to rate human beings. Some are more worthy6 than others. Start with the child in the womb and then move on up. And that's what's happening, slowly and imperceptibly. Peter Singer doesn't believe newborns have "worth" until they have lived a few weeks. Where does one draw the worth line?

Carder, ha! GMTA - I was going to say she has a nice open spot in the can all ready.... I should lose some weight so I'm easier to lift.
.....

John, I don't think much changes physically with the fetus re wanted or unwanted. Perhaps the women's differing mental states results in changes in the chemicals going from her body to the unborn body? Not saying it does, just speculating (slight change?).

Overall, I don't see anything really different, with respect to the fetus, on its own. (Of course not, right? It's physical reality.) You can also say "unborn baby" - that's fine with me.

Often, yes - the pregnancy is unwanted because the woman doesn't want the baby/doesn't want to have kids then, etc., and in the woman's eyes the fetus isn't wanted, as simple as that. Could be other contributing factors, too, as you note - it could be a matter of hormones, morning-sickness, or other impacts on the woman's life. In such a case, just the "having a baby" could be wanted on balance by the woman or there could be a neutral feeling about it.

I don't think women have abortions because they say, "the kid will be a criminal!" I'm much more a believer in nurture affecting that, rather than nature, myself.

"Future-darling" - there are many parents still holding on to that thought as their kids go through the teenage years, heck, even the years in the 20's... ; )

Disabilities - a given woman or couple will draw the line somewhere, from the more slight problems to the severe to the "we're continuing this pregnancy no matter what."

Is the value of a fetus determined by the aspects of the fetus or by the impacts (raised hormone levels/morning-sickness/weight-gain/etc) that pregnancy entails?

I realize that you and I don't always agree on what "value" is, but when we talk about wanted/unwanted, that's primarily on the part of the woman or couple, and the determination can be a variety of those things. It could be either/or, and it could be a mixture of them.

The "aspect" of the fetus makes me think of the sex-selection question, a very good one, IMO. I think it was Ray who said that though he was pro-choice, he didn't feel it was a good reason to have an abortion. Interesting - one who is okay with abortion, overall, (where the exact motivation of the woman is almost never known), still judges the reason if it is known.

And Doug to do what you did to Bethany this moring shows how small a man you really are....

Patricia: Only in Doug's warped world of relativism can worth be "a matter of perception".

No, Patricia. It is relative, in the first place, whether one believes in a deity or not. If there is a "warped" here, it's you thinking that your unprovable beliefs are a sound basis for public policy, as with taking away the freedom that women have in this matter. They are not.

They are sound for you because that is what you want, what you believe, and Pro-Choice is fine with that. They do not apply to other people who don't share your beliefs, though.

Disabilities - a given woman or couple will draw the line somewhere, from the more slight problems to the severe to the "we're continuing this pregnancy no matter what."

Yeah, where exactly is that line - another myth. Because there is no line - it can be anywhere which is totally ridiculous. People are now aborting for cleft palates.

Your position is irrational.

It is YOUR beliefs which are unprovable and irrational Doug. But, you know, continue in your low level of functioning and hurting distraught women like Bethany, if it makes you feel like a man.

and Doug, continue to hide behind the screen of relativism, so that you can never ever discover "truth"
and never have ANY standards for anything that matters in life

Doug said:12:19: The "aspect" of the fetus makes me think of the sex-selection question, a very good one, IMO. I think it was Ray who said that though he was pro-choice, he didn't feel it was a good reason to have an abortion. Interesting - one who is okay with abortion, overall, (where the exact motivation of the woman is almost never known), still judges the reason if it is known.

Interesting indeed. Perhaps knowing the "reason" makes the choice of abortion a little more "real" in one's mind? A light goes off that says "Hey, is this really a good thing?" Maybe there is a moral right or wrong choice after all, regardless of one's desire?

Pat, you're ranting and raving. Different people feel differently. I didn't say that all cleft-palate babies should be aborted,for example, but I do note, correctly, the motivation on people's parts. We haven't even gotten to arguing about them yet.

Janet, it's still all desire - if it was Ray, then he doesn't want people ending pregnancies on the basis of the sex alone.

All motivation and all moral feelings can be traced right to the desire behind them.

Well WHICH cleft palate babies SHOULD be aborted DOUGIE?

Do you have standards for ANYTHING in your life? Or do you just go along by how you feel about things?

And I'm not ranting Dougie. What I said in my 12:28 pm post I truly meant. YOu show that you have very little compassion for women or babies. To me, a real man is a protector of both. A man who supports abortion is not.

It is YOUR beliefs which are unprovable and irrational Doug.

Patricia, nope - I stick what is true for all of us, and where a thing is my opinion I make no secret of it. The irrationality is pretending that one's opinion is "external" or "absolute," and I don't do that, while you do.
......

But, you know, continue in your low level of functioning and hurting distraught women like Bethany, if it makes you feel like a man.

Hardly worth a response, but how about you copy something I said where you think my intent was really to hurt bethany? You are just being silly.
......

and Doug, continue to hide behind the screen of relativism, so that you can never ever discover "truth" and never have ANY standards for anything that matters in life

Well golly gee whillikers, poor me.... The truth is that I have standards just as you do. You and I probably share most of them. One area where we don't is with respect to the abortion debate. You more want the unborn life to continue, I more want the woman to be free to choose, either way. There's the truth.

Well WHICH cleft palate babies SHOULD be aborted DOUGIE?

It's not up to me. If my wife was pregnant, I would not choose to end the pregnancy on that basis alone.

But if your wife wanted to abort the child, you would go along with it. How is that protecting your child?

Your standards are based upon what you feel at the particular moment you are making the decision and nothing else.

And the it's not up to me statement is a TOTAL cop out as a man! Wow. What a great protector guy you are.

But if your wife wanted to abort the child, you would go along with it. How is that protecting your child?

Yes, I'd go along with it. I did not say anything about a "child," in the first place, however. I also didn't say it was my choice, alone. It's primarily the woman's choice, since she's the one pregnant, and that would apply to my wife too.
......

Your standards are based upon what you feel at the particular moment you are making the decision and nothing else.

Yes and no, and the same is true for you. "Yes" because people can change, and because we live life moment-by-moment. "No" because what we feel often continues for years, decades, a whole lifetime, etc. As far as abortion, I've felt pretty much the same way for the last 12 years.
......

And the it's not up to me statement is a TOTAL cop out as a man! Wow. What a great protector guy you are.

No it isn't. I'm for protecting the thinking, feeling person - the pregnant woman. You are trying to get what you want - the pregnancy being continued, regardless of what the woman wants. I say it's better to go my way.
......

But, you know, continue in your low level of functioning and hurting distraught women like Bethany, if it makes you feel like a man.

"Hardly worth a response, but how about you copy something I said where you think my intent was really to hurt bethany? You are just being silly."

I think you likely have no good response to this, but again - if you think I was mean-spirited or had intent to hurt Bethany, then what exactly did you see me say?

I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

YOU are the one without the legs or guts, man!

First of all, I do not make decisions on what I feel. I try to make decisions based on my conscience which is formed by Catholic teaching on morals and ethics. I also believe that we are answerable to a higher being for our actions. Making decisions on what you feel is not logical. And decisions made under such conditions usually do not make for good decisions as distressed abandoned pregnant women having abortions demonstrate.

In the past I certainly have FELT like doing certain actions. Those feeling were quite strong whether they were love, lust, or anger. But my conscience is formed by learning what is right or wrong (and there use to be agreement on what was right and wrong in general) and following a moral code. In other words, my actions are governed to some extent by my intellect and mastery to some degree over my emotions. An action cannot be right for me and wrong for you. It is irrational. The act itself must be either right or wrong. Otherwise this leads to anarchy and subjugation of various groups of people. In this case, unborn babies throughout the world who are slaughtered by the millions simply for the feeling of convenience. In other places: the elderly in the Netherlands, prisoners in China, the disabled.

Secondly, you say you are protecting the thinking feeling person - the woman. I would argue we have 2 people here - not one. Your concept of person hood and worth is based on location, stage of development and other nonessential factors. However, the truth is that once conceived, a human being exists with all the rights that you and I have. You deny this person their rights. I do not. Your duty as a father and husband is to protect both, your wife and your developing child.Killing one to make the other happy can never work Doug. It is a lie.

YOU are the one without the legs or guts, man!

Grouch.
......

First of all, I do not make decisions on what I feel.

It's still all what you feel. You can ascribe them to your beliefs, to God, heck, to anything, but it's still all the same.

I do agree that we sometimes make decisions too hastily or in upset frames of mind, and that can be bad, yes.
......

In other words, my actions are governed to some extent by my intellect and mastery to some degree over my emotions. An action cannot be right for me and wrong for you. It is irrational. The act itself must be either right or wrong. Otherwise this leads to anarchy and subjugation of various groups of people. In this case, unborn babies throughout the world who are slaughtered by the millions simply for the feeling of convenience. In other places: the elderly in the Netherlands, prisoners in China, the disabled.

It still all goes to desire. Yes, lust, etc., but what was operative was that while you may have wanted to "get down," etc., you more wanted to not do it, to follow a different course of action. If not, then you'd have gone ahead. Religion, etc., can come into it, or not - it still comes down to what the prevalent desire is.

It's like saying, "I don't like to clean toilets." Well no, perhaps not on the act purely by itself, but people do it because they more want the toilet clean, or to keep their job, etc.

An act certainly can be wrong for some people and right for others. First of all, it depends on who you ask. It really doesn't lead to anarchy because of the great commonality of desire among the world's people, and the similarity in laws around the world reflect that. Abortion is unusual because there really is significant disagreement on the laws, whereas with most things there's not.

It would be silly for me to tell you that you having an abortion is "good." I really don't think it would be, from the little I know of you. Likewise, telling somebody like Erin, for example, that her having an abortion was "bad" doesn't fly either.
......

Secondly, you say you are protecting the thinking feeling person - the woman. I would argue we have 2 people here - not one. Your concept of person hood and worth is based on location, stage of development and other nonessential factors.

Who is to determine what's "essential"? We are individuals having our say here. I am for less suffering, overall. I'd rather see 10,000 unwanted pregnancies ended versus the suffering that one child can undergo. On the "thinking and feeling," part - that's essential, IMO, that's what has us caring about and discussing the issue in the first place. We can argue about the stage in gestation where the unborn get some awareness, etc., but early enough and there's nothing there as far as that, while we know that the pregnant woman thinks and feels.
......

However, the truth is that once conceived, a human being exists with all the rights that you and I have. You deny this person their rights. I do not.

No, Patricia, that is flat-out false. It is the fact that rights aren't attributed to the unborn that has you arguing in the first place. It is not a matter of "denying" rights, it's that we haven't granted them. Not saying it's impossible to do so, but as of now it's not the case. It has never been the case, not in all the societies around the world for all of recorded time.

Thank you, Patricia.

And by the way, apparently there is no reasoning with an person who simply cannot think rationally.

Chris Arsenault offered me good advice to just ignore people like Doug, but I just had to go and try to argue with him anyway and get caught up once again in a stupid, pointless, circular debate with him.

Despite the fact that I abhor the things that SOMG does in his life, I respect SOMG's style of debate more than I do Doug. About a hundred times more.. At least SOMG admits it if there is an error on his part, and for the most part, he is very honest about what he thinks and feels.

On the other hand, Doug seems to think he is incapable of error (just watch him parse this comment and explain to me how I'm wrong and he's right about this very thought. Case in point).

I knew it was pointless and yet I felt compelled to continue discussing it with him. Stupid, stupid Bethany. Shame on me.

B,

You're defending your child, so of course you're going after the marauders. Maternal protection.

I wouldn't expect any less of you.

Carder,

I agree! Bethany's an awesome Mom!!!!

**raspberries at Doug!**

Bethany, same for you as for Patricia. You say "Doug seems to think he's incapable of error," but what, really, have I said that leads you there?

You're just making unsupported statements.

The alterations of the pictures had a cruel, mean-spirited intent - no argument there.

What I disagreed with is your leaping from that to saying that that those who favor abortion being legal treat the unborn as "worthless objects," where the sense is not neutral, not just leaving-it-up-to-the-woman, but negative, which you agreed it was.

It's not the same thing.

:: sticks tongue out at JLM ::

Carder, JLM (hugs!)

wow you guys have a lot of posts here. where's crazy witch yllas?

yllas crazy-lady, you ought to come to our school to speak. 5% of the student body would think you're possessed by demons, and the rest would laugh you off campus.

come on down to Santa Barbara, ain't no stakes for burning at UC.

hey my girlfriend says you crazy too.

Abortion can do some awful things to the soul, in my opinion.

Posted by: Bethany at April 21, 2008 8:17 AM

***

so can too much coursework. meanwhile I know way more girls who've had abortions and who thank god for not having kids than girls who wish they didn't.

"yllas crazy-lady, you ought to come to our school to speak. 5% of the student body would think you're possessed by demons, and the rest would laugh you off campus."

Sk8tr, we hold yllas down and bring in an exorcist, you know there'll be some world class thrashing around.

"A pro baby killer posted at this site using my moniker at April 21,2008, 1:52a.m.
Please ban the person who used my moniker."

Posted by: yllas at April 21, 2008 12:25 PM
___

Somebody give the baby another bottle.

Aren't you about due to appear, like Beetlejuice? (Your insane asylum has "computer time" about now.)

they already tried giving yllas an exorcism. you know that earthquake in Illinois last week? heheheheheheheehheheheheeeheeehheee

Come on Taylored Dung and your no wit comedy sidekick can do better then that. Hmm, let's see. Humor rating. 1 being totally unoriginal to 10 being original, and containing some wit with intelligence.
Pappy's Taylored Dung. Score; 1.23 Are you the straight man or the comedian trying to communicate with Down with PD skating on a 8 ball of brown tar?. Bad, Bad, lacks any cohesion as a team of dumb and dumber attempts as "team comedians".
Down with PD & sk8tr; Score; 1.03 Using exorcism as humor is going going gone. Trying to revive the Seventies humor ain't going to get you a job at the local PDAP house, even after those ten years attending UC at Holy Barbara studying why Canadians are lacking the intelligence to have witty humor. BTW, your other moniker, which has half of your university name, was posting to Doug where old hippies hang out and try to convert the world to disco music.

Again a statement of absolute truth from the mind of the Dogmatic Doug concerning "attributes and rights." "It has NEVER been the case not in ALL societies around the world for ALL recorded time"
Sources Doug? Name those academic sources that state as a complete absolute fact/truth that "ALL societies around the world for ALL recorded time"
Let's start with any published book by any scholar that directly states ALL and FOREVER in his study about any subject in this world, much less abortion. Name please and source Doug. Now, don't send me to some web site, I want the names of books, authors, which state your dogmatic truth which is quoted above in this post. Point me to the chapter,paragraph,page number Dogmatic Doug, which states "all recored time" and I'll show you a fraud and propagandist whose dogma has destroyed his research by making facts fit his absolute truth for nothing more then a appeal to the fallacy of logic known as "everyone's doing it" and "join the band wagon". Damn Dogmatic Doug, your becoming more ridiculous from those 12 year of preaching your dogmatism for abortion, until your mind has gone ABSOUTELY, for ALL time, and will NEVER recover from your self inflicted dogma of " knowing no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do".
And this from a self made, self declared, agnostic on all matters of life, except his personal dogmatic faith in the allowing of murdering human beings for his God, named Abortion.
Of course it all began in the humble home of Doug, where his parent's introduced him to the logic of the ALWAYS IS, ALWAYS WAS , AlWAYS WILL BE, ALWAYS WILL BE THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH IN THE FUTURE murdering God of his youth. Is this where Doug's dogmatic thinking began? Enquiring minds know it is a seamless progression of one dogma to another dogma, but the results are the same.
But, the worst of Dogma Doug is his God of Abortion is a infinite God,(see quotes of Dogma Doug above with absolute values). So what is he doing here arguing for his dogmatism, since it is settled for ALL TIME in Doug's reality of absolute facts and truths of his God, named Abortion.
Now, remember, when addressing Doug, always salute this absolutist for his God named Abortion, that ALWAYS IS, ALWAYS WAS , ALWAYS WILL BE, ALWAYS WILL BE THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH IN THE FUTURE as the Archangel of Abortion, prowling the net in search of minds to convert to his personal God named Abortion.
Then again, Dogma Doug should have his allies in murdering human beings,(Pap Dumb Taylor Dung and his Down with and Dumber SK8TR partner in attempted Seventies revival humor) perform a exorcism on Doug in reverse, and see which infinite God begins to speak for this "dogmatic logician" for the murder of human beings.
Afterall, it is known before it is known, and Doug already knows which Abortion comedian will perform the reverse exorcism on Dogma Doug. Or simply because Dogma Doug communicates in mysterious ways with comedians from a cold dank island, where old hippies hang out preaching that old time Seventies comedy for the amusement of a dogmatist of the God named Abortion.

Heh - yllas, if you know of a society where personhood was attributed before birth, let's hear of it. Never happened.

PDsk8tr, how do you know Doug and Yllas? I don't know if I've seen you much before.

yllas @ April 23, 2008 6:37 AM

Doug has shown me, and I believe many of us, that he's simply not worth the time addressing. Don't let him get to you. He serves as a great illustration of someone who lacks all the essential qualities of person-hood. I hardly consider him an expert on the subject. Quite the opposite actually.

I don't wish Doug ill, but I have no desire to entertain him either.

Why discuss the issue with someone whose heart is hardened & bitter? Better to let him meet the Lord and let Doug argue with Him.

After all if death is unavoidable, and yet Christ rose from death, then who better to judge the living and the dead?

Doug, who is pro-choice, has a choice: let him live or die by it.

Whee, Dogmatic Doug retreats into asking questions and avoiding his lack of logic for his personally infinite God, named Abortion.
Sources Dogmatic Doug, once again. Ain't got any, since any and ALL scholars of history,anthropology, or any other discipline of scholarly knowledge, do not make such ridiculous statements, as you have Dogma Doug. Can you just admit your fallacy of logic Dogma Doug, which is known as join the band wagon and everyone is doing it, compounded with some hasty generalizations thrown in, and ending in absolutism being raised to the power of infinty? Didn't think so Dogma Doug. Your dogma does not allow being able to admit glaring logical fallacies created by your self inflicted dogmatism for abortion. But, try writing these words, I, Doug, made a blunder of logic and committed two fallacies of sound reasoning in the name of my absolute God named Abortion. Do it Doug, admit your mistake. Your personhood might enjoy a scent of fresh air entering a closed minded, dogmatist atmosphere.
Besides, why do you come here, when your dogmatic mind simply has replaced your childhood dogmatism, which began as absolutes instilled by your parents, and have progressed into a absolute dogma for Abortion. Come to think of it Dogma Doug, you actually have not progressed, but retained your childhood absolute personhood into a adult absolute personhood, that is not sentient of your personhood being unable to grasp simple mistakes in logic. Careful Dogma Doug, if your personhood is reduced enough, by not being intellectually sentient, some old drugged out hippie abortion comedians, might ask for a choice decision about Dogma Doug having the right to life.
Tell me Dogma Doug, have you progressed, or actually not progressed in your life worshiping at the altar of the absolute truth, known as Abortion to Doug. Progress? or No progress?

Chris, between being silly and apparently only wishing to preach to the choir, what do you think you bring to the discussion?

If everybody accepted the same unprovable things you do, we wouldn't be arguing and abortion would not be the issue it is. Of course, that is not reality.

yllas, the logical fallacy is yours - asking for the proof of a negative. There being no record of any society anywhere, at any time, attributing personhood to the unborn may not be good enough for you, but by your logic you'd then be pounding the table, saying that the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Boogeyman exist.

I don't claim that my feelings on abortion are "absolute truth," but others do.