Hate to break it to you, Ms. Keenan, but you haven't ceded any moral ground because you never had any moral ground. There never has been, never will be, anything moral about abortion.

The thing is that 27% of the people have 55% of the kids and religion/pro life sentiments are correlated to higher fertility. Not 100% of course, but it is a trend that many demographers have noted. One is Eric Kaufmann, Belfer Center, Harvard University/Birkbeck College, University of London e.kaufmann@bbk.ac.uk

When you are a group promoting low fertility, don't expect to easily increase in number.

http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf

excerpt:

"... an important postulate of second demographic transition theory is that values are increasingly linked to fertility behaviour as societies modernise. Whereas the first phase of transition is affected by material changes like urbanisation (which renders children more costly and less beneficial), falling infant mortality and the availability of contraception, latter-day declines are more consciously ‘chosen’ on the basis of values and attitudes. Conservative religious values are associated with higher fertility while liberal or secular values predict lower birthrates. (Surkyn and Lesthaeghe 2004; van de Kaa 1987)
This dynamic increases its importance in the modern period because previous to this both religious conservatives and others had high fertility, cancelled out by high mortality. Only as mortality falls do differences in fertility become more important – and here we find that conservative religious groups have not responded to falling infant mortality as others have: i.e., by dropping their fertility to the replacement level, or below. (Skirbekk, forthcoming) When everyone had ten children and eight died before they reached adulthood, beliefs didn’t matter. Today they do. "

Hate to break it to you, Ms. Keenan, but you haven't ceded any moral ground because you never had any moral ground. There never has been, never will be, anything moral about abortion.
Posted by: Jennifer at April 20, 2010 10:49 AM
**********

Jennifer, these were my thoughts exactly!! Amen.

Did anybody read the "history of birth control" that's been added to the article? Talk about bias.
It refers to metallic chastity belts as an "early attempt at abstinence-only education" - seriously? - and then goes on to describe the ill-conceived mechanical apparatus and how painful and degrading it could be to women.

Pro-life parents raise pro-life children. Pro-abortion parents have few children, and even fewer pro-personhood children.

It it really that hard to comprehend, or is Newsweek horrible at math?

Amen, Jennifer!

The proabort mentality and movement is losing. You know it, I know it and they know it.

If abortion didn't end the life of an unborn human child I would have no problem with it.

If abortion didn't end the life of an unborn human child I would have no problem with it.

So you have no problem with contraception, then? Contraception reduces abortions and unwanted pregnancies, and does not kill human fetuses.

I'm not saying you support contraception. I'm just askign if you have a problem with it.

Contraception reduces abortions and unwanted pregnancies,

Posted by: Dhalgren at April 20, 2010 12:01 PM

If only people would use it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703757504575194191495081682.html

And many young people are in "the fog zone" in which their beliefs about pregnancy don't match their behaviors, according to a 2009 report by the National Campaign to End Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy. In a survey conducted by the Guttmacher Institute of 1,800 single men and women aged 18 to 29, more than 80% of both sexes said it was important to them to avoid pregnancy right now, yet 43% of those who are sexually active said they used no contraception or used it inconsistently."

Cheap legal abortion reduces the incentive to actually use birth control consistently and conscientiously.

Woo hooo! The good guys are winning the abortion debate!

Cranky Catholic@ 11:26

Exactly! 7 children from me (pro-life) compared to 0 children from a pro-choice woman I know. Do they really wonder about this?

Posted by: Dhalgren at April 20, 2010 12:01 PM

"So you have no problem with contraception, then?"

---------------------------------------------------

Dull-gren,

'contra' ception by defintion is the prevention of mr. sperm 'hooking up' with ms ova.

There are some who as a matter conscience have a moral objection to preventing the mr. sperm from uniting with ms ova.

There are some who do not.

What nearly all of us reasonable logical pro-life folks have in common is the killing of the new human being who comes into existence as a result of mr. sperm and ms ova being joined together.

To most of you 'dead babies r us' folks, contraception means preventing the new human being from living any longer than possible and you have come with all kinds of novel methods to ensure that none of the non-'chosen' ones survive.

Dullgrin,

When your momma was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was resident in her uterus?

You can poll the audience or call a friend or even ask a fifth grader if you require assistance with the answer.

yor bro ken

Reducing casual sex in non-committed (or pre-marital) relationships could reduce abortion. Unfortunately, abortion and contraception are Big Business so the pro-aborts don't want to reveal this bit of truth.

The dead babies r us mob is not interested in eliminating or even reducing the number of abortions.

Abortion is the golden cash cow. They use the money milked from the golden cash cow to advance all the rest of their leftist agenda.

yor bro ken

Cranky Catholic@ 11:26

Exactly! 7 children from me (pro-life) compared to 0 children from a pro-choice woman I know. Do they really wonder about this?
Posted by: Kristen at April 20, 2010 12:40 PM

Add me to the list with 7, too. Between us, 14 children raised in the belief that human life is sacred.

Hey, I found a pro natalist religious blog that has an interesting statement defining themselves:

http://concordiansisters.blogspot.com/

"You too are a Concordian Sister of Perpetual Parturition, regardless of how many kids you have, if your family size determines your lifestyle rather than the other way around. And if you buy into that Concordia business (we're talking Confessions here, not those money pits where we went to college)."

As a back-to -nature freak, I zeroed in on that part about

"if your family size determines your lifestyle rather than the other way around"

Jill,

You might consider prominently posting a similar disclaimer/warning on your home page:

"The Concordian Sisters cannot be held responsible for poor reading comprehension on the part of visitors to this blog.

If readers find our notions offensive, they are more than welcome to quit offending themselves by visiting here."

Amen to that sisters!

yor bro ken

OMG... now I HAVE to go check out that blog...

"Add me to the list with 7, too. Between us, 14 children raised in the belief that human life is sacred.

Posted by: Elisabeth at April 20, 2010 12:55 PM"
===============================================

Add my 3 kids to the list (should've been 4 but we lost 1 to a miscarriage about 2 years ago).

And my eldest daughter is entering High School in the fall and would need 100 hours of service for graduation. She plans to volunteer at the newly opened Waterleaf Woman's Center..a block from the Aurora, PP.

She actually wants to volunteer to Live Action's effort of going undercover and exposing PP's lies.

The pro-life side has more young people because young people think about legally aborted babies and realize, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." A lot of the old guard on the pro-choice side couldn't have been legally aborted, or only could have been legally aborted in some states. They don't have that same sense of having dodged the metaphorical bullet.

That, and the pro-life side realizes that ending abortion wouldn't set society back in time. It wouldn't cause pregnant women to be expelled from school or fired from their jobs for being pregnant. It wouldn't turn unwed mothers into targets of ostracism. Sometimes I get the feeling that the pro-choice side thinks that abortion is somehow synanymous with various progress made for equal rights for women - outlaw abortion, and suddenly girls won't be able to play sports in school and the percentage of women in college will drastically fall and female elected officials will be kicked out of office. They might not consciously think that, but I think that for some of them it's an irrational fear lurking in the backs of their minds.

Please add our nine dear ones to the ever-growing list of young pro-lifers! (Would be thirteen were it not for four miscarriages.)

Our collective total so far is 26!

*THANK YOU, LORD, FOR OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN!*

Check this out, pro-life friends. It's going to be great!:
http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/bc/

and:
http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp/2010/04/6542.aspx

Blessings!

Oh, forgot to say that Lord-willing, we will be adding more to our flock by way of adoption. We're getting our home study underway and hope to adopt a sibling group, if the Lord allows. (My point being that it will be more for our collective Life List. : ) )

Artemis,
The liberal East Coast is known for producing CINO'S (Catholics in name only) so your anecdotal evidence that pro-lifers there are producing pro-choicers is hardly proof that pro-lifers don't tend to raise pro-life children.

And no, pro-lifers are NOT happy that pro-aborts are killing their offspring. To their detriment, the fact that it's happening shows how obtuse the PC'rs really are.

Add my four cherubs and I believe we are up to 30 prolife offspring of prolife parents on this thread. :)

"Pro-life parents raise pro-life children."

You are very funny.

Love,
a Pro-Choice activist gal who was raised by two openly anti-choice parents.

Oh, and by the way, I plan on having a LOT of kids, so your "pro-choicers don't have kids!" belief is wrong, too. This is common sense, guys and gals. Really.

Love,
a pro-choice activist gal who was raised by two openly anti-choice parents who wants to have a bunch of kids. ♥

Who also wants to become an abortionist to kill other prochoice parent's kids.

Why is it that many pro-lifers neither know or understand how contraception works?

Contraceptive pills work in that they attempts to prevent sperm and ova from joining; however, that only works somewhere in the 70 percentile range. The other method is that, should sperm and ova meet, the newly formed embryo, i.e. baby, is prevented from attaching to the lining of the uterine wall, causing a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. This is the abortifacient nature, or 2nd line of defense, for the contraceptive. That's how contraceptive pills work.

It's good when I can agree with Nancy Keenan and if I could talk to her in person I would say, "Amen! By all means let's start an open discussion about the moral, ethical, and emotional complexity of abortion. Whoyaaa!"

If we are doing a head count, add my 5 to the list. :)

"Pro-life parents raise pro-life children."

You are very funny.

Love,
a Pro-Choice activist gal who was raised by two openly anti-choice parents.

Posted by: ProChoiceGal at April 20, 2010 2:56 PM

Not funny. Statistically valid. Just like atheists sometimes have their kids grow up to be religious. However, statistically speaking, kids tend to be like parents. Just because there is not 100% correlation doesn't mean there is not a general trend.

"Pro-life parents raise pro-life children."

You are very funny.

Love,
a Pro-Choice activist gal who was raised by two openly anti-choice parents.

Posted by: ProChoiceGal at April 20, 2010 2:56 PM

Not funny. Statistically valid. Just like atheists sometimes have their kids grow up to be religious. However, statistically speaking, kids tend to be like parents. Just because there is not 100% correlation doesn't mean there is not a general trend.

"a Pro-Choice activist gal who was raised by two openly anti-choice parents."

What do your parents think about your plans to become an abortionist PCG? Oh, you haven't told them? Why not? Sounds like you might have some communication/control issues with those you claim to be the closest with.

Mature people who are truly PROUD of what they are doing and/or promoting don't feel the need to hide it from anyone, including their parents. At least your parents never hid the fact that they were prolife from you.

Maybe I just don't feel like being disowned right now, Praxedes. I will tell them on my own time.

Sounds more like you are "bucking authority" than being firm in your convictions. Your fear of being disowned is greater than your self-proclaimed strong convictions. The fact that you can proclaim over and over to complete strangers how firm you are in who you are and what you believe but are not able to be honest with those who raised you and love you, makes your convictions quite weak to say nothing of based on dishonesty.

Kinda like the whole movement you support--based on weaknesses and dishonesty. It is very insincere of you to proclaim your convictions to complete strangers but in reality continue to keep those who love you the most in the dark.

How you relate or choose not to relate to those whom you claim to love as well says a lot about your character. Unless you are fearful of physical abuse, as a daughter and as a mother, I believe your parents deserve the truth about your life plans.

You wouldn't make the same assumptions about an anti-choicer who doesn't want to tell her parents about her beliefs.

Praxedes, if her parents would disown her, they don't seem like the most caring individuals anyway, caring more about the fact that their daughter's life plans align with theirs than making sure their daughter's life plans are what SHE wants.

To be respected, one must first be respectful. Seems like her parents aren't very respectful of their daughter's independence.

I don't know of anyone who proclaims to be anti-choice to say nothing of someone who proclaims to be anti-choice but is also afraid to tell their parents that they're anti-choice.

If I ever come across someone who loudly expresses being anti-choice but is fearful of telling their loved ones about this, you can rest assured that I will question the sincerity of their conviction.

I don't need your validation. Fighting for reproductive freedom is my passion, and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. I'm currently living away from my parents and am independent from them, but don't you think it'd leave an emotional scar to be disowned? I'm simply waiting for the right time. That is all. I do not need you to tell me when that time is.

PS- my parents know that I'm pro-choice, they just don't know that I'm going to be a provider.

Anybody notice the irony of the title?

"Pro-aborts worry about next generation"

They sure weren't worried about the next generation when they were busy exterminating it.
It reminds me of Pharaoh, who killed off the Hebrew children for fear they were becoming too strong. It happened to be a survivor of that massacre that led them to deliverance. Once again the survivors may bring about an end to the injustice.

A truly misguided passion, PCG. I think you know that deep down though. You are not fighting for anything. You are training to suction the bodies of young human beings out of their mothers wombs and then send those wounded mothers on their way with a Good Bye and Good Luck. Why do you hate women so much?

I will join your parents in prayer that you will learn the truth before it is too late.

Yes, I hate women so much that I'm going to refrain from assaulting them. I hate them sooo much that I've going to give them liberty. I hate them soooo much that I'm actually going to listen to what they say and what they want, instead of telling them what's best for them. I hate them so much that I recognize the fact that they aren't idiots, and that I need not make choices for them. Amazing, huh?

You know what else is amazing? How YOU think you know what I feel deep down, without even meeting me or having a meaningful discussion with me. Amazing.

I have "discussed" things on your blog. I have read more than enough of your blog posts. Read of your supporters. Not hard to figure you out, PCG. You hate.

Will you show women the ultrasound of their fully formed human baby? Will you tell them about fetal development? Will you be accurate about that development or say that it's "just a bunch of cells?" When someone is alone and lost and afraid will you tell her abortion is the "best" thing she can do? Will you laugh all the way to the bank?

You will assault a woman by forcefully dilating her cervix and using suction to extract her child. It is medical rape.

There is a big difference between you judging me, trying to smear me, and making assumptions about me, and having a meaningful discussion with me. It takes a lot more than that and reading a few of my blog posts to get to know me. I'm sad to say this, but out of all of the antis I'm engaged, I've only ever had a meaningful discussion with one, maybe two, anti-choice people. You are not one of them. If you want to make assumptions about my character, try getting to know me first. If you don't want to get to know me, maybe you should leave your assumptions and judgments to yourself.

And I am never going to perform an abortion on a person without her consent. You, however, are willing to force a woman through a pregnancy against her will, so I suggest you shush up about medical rape, considering the fact that you are the one here who supports it.

Quote from younger pro-abort to older pro-aborts on the Abortion Gang site: "I don’t know how many times I have to yell to be heard by older feminists. Turn up your hearing aids! Are you listening? We’re here."

What was that you were saying about respect again, Less? I didn't hear you. I forgot to put in my hearing aid.

Carla, I'm adding my prayers to yours and PCG's parents' prayers. Anyone else here who believes in and/or has witnessed the healing powers of prayer, please join us in asking our Holy Lord for the complete healing of PCG's heart. If you would be so kind, please add me to your list of those to pray for as well.

PCG
You have already stated what you support, what you want to do with your life and how your parents feel about it. You blog your thoughts, feelings and emotions. I know enough.

When you come to this site and proclaim that we are pro-rape without knowing any of us what does that say about you, PCG?

I will not shush when it comes to abortion! But thanks for the warning.

Oh and your last sentence makes zero sense.

Thank you, Praxedes!

"PCG
You have already stated what you support, what you want to do with your life and how your parents feel about it. You blog your thoughts, feelings and emotions. I know enough."

Alright, so where did I state that I hate women? Where did I state that I want to perform abortions on women who do not consent?

oh wait, I didn't. You're just making stuff up again.

Good bye, Carla. Drop me an email if you're ever interested in real discussion (email address is on my blogger profile)

I am sure this is not goodbye, PCG. :)

Any abortionist who does NOT tell women the truth about what abortion will do to her growing child or the risks of abortion hardly LOVES women or wants to HELP women.

See you soon.

Killing innocents for profit is all about hate. You don't have to state it.

Actions speak louder than words.

What I find so interesting about you, PCG is that you do not hold yourself to the same standard of behavior that you hold us to.

You can spout your prorape rhetoric here until the cows come home and then when someone calls you on it or questions you about it we are "judging" and "making assumptions."

You want to be an abortionist. The facts about what abortion is and what it does to a woman and her child shouldn't be so offensive to you.

You go on and on about "reproductive justice" and then can't defend why you want to kill babies.

Then you run away.

Who's running away? Certainly not me ;).

Then stay!! You will find out soon enough that although I vehemently disagree with your passion for aborting children I also happen to care. You matter. You are worthwhile. You have gifts and talents and abilities and I would hate to see you squander it all to be an abortionist.

And yes I can say that. And no I will not shush.

Praxedes, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding hearing aids. What sense are you making?

You seem to think that me staying and watching people call me a woman hater, baby killer, selfish, etc, is going to divert me from following my life's calling. I don't mean any disrespect, but how is that going to work, exactly?

I hate them sooo much that I've going to give them liberty.
Posted by: ProChoiceGal at April 20, 2010 8:43 PM
**************************

Wow. Just... wow. If you're going to be an abortion "provider", PCG, keep it up. You're doing great with the God-complex talk. It's astounding what these "providers" have to tell themselves to do their jobs...

Is committing the murder of an innocent to obtain one's liberty what the women's movement was all about?

Stay to discuss!! You sure can dish it out, though can't you, PCG?

You provoke the responses you get then play the victim.

What does an abortionist do exactly if not kill a baby? Hair? Manicures? Pedicures? Root canals?

I love how you pretend to be nice to me in one post and then go on to try to insult me in the next. Very funny ;)

Not pretending at all. I can like discussing things with you and be abhorred by what you want to do in life. Why do you care what I think?

I am a post abortive mom that regrets her abortion. I have been spit on, yelled at, flipped off, and sworn at while holding my I Regret My Abortion sign.
Do you think I give 2 figs what anyone else says about my story? The most horrifying experience of my life?

Maybe, just maybe we are trying to save you from yourself. Just like your parents will when they find out their little girl wants to be an abortionist.

And how is calling me a selfish, baby murdering woman hater going to "save me from myself" again? I'm supposed to believe that anti-choicers are trying to "help" me when they attempt to annoy and smear me like that?

And no, I don't care about what you think of me. However, that doesn't mean that I'll fall for the "You're a selfish, evil, money-greedy baby murderer! ....but I care about you and want to help you" trick. I'm smarter than that.

"Add my four cherubs and I believe we are up to 30 prolife offspring of prolife parents on this thread. :)"

Hey Carla,

Does that include my three cherubs???

Add my three kiddos. :)

ProChoiceGal,

I'm late to this thread, but find your war with Carla somewhat of an incongruity. Carla has experienced the searing agony that comes to so very many women who are post-abortive. That's part of what you get when you make the choice.

Pro-life IS pro-woman. To say the least, it is an unnatural act to kill one's own offspring.

You speak of reproductive freedom, but you do not speak of responsibility. When you speak of reproductive freedom, what you are advocating is sex without responsibility and employing the killing of another human being, namely your own baby, to preserve your right to unencumbered orgasm.

In a more enlightened age that was called narcissism.

41 prolife cherubs just on this thread!! :)

PCG,
You come to a prolife blog to call us prorape. You yap about how you are passionate about becoming an abortionist because you love "reproductive justice."

Stop with the rhetoric and spit it out. You want to end the lives of children because that is what abortion IS and what abortion DOES!! Why do you have such a hard time grasping just what your profession is about? You will get paid to end the lives of children. Fact.

Are you trolling for topics for your blog? :)

PCG,

To make it through a pre-med curriculum (which I needed for graduate school), and then a doctorate and advanced training (which I did in two master degrees, Ph.D. & post-doctoral fellowship), one needs a sustaining vision to eat the mountain of crap that you are forced to along the way.

My vision was the moral worth and dignity of all people, from fertilization through natural death. That's what got me through the hard times, the difficult workload, the endless, exhausting hours in lab. I knew that one day I would redeem that suffering and sacrifice by being able to help save and prolong people's lives with my knowledge and skills.

I say this as a doctor of medical microbiology, and i say this with all seriousness and candor:

Any person whose sustaining vision is the slaughter of babies, any person who makes it though thirteen years of education beyond high school on that vision is twisted and evil.

Anyone who would even speak such words in jest is an ass.

So which one are you?

Eight parents/couples represented, with 41 children (46 and probably more, counting the little ones who did not live beyond the womb).

This blesses my heart!

It would make a fun group shot, don't you think, Carla? : )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Praxedes and PCGal ~

As I was settling in here at my kitchen table to tackle some late-night laundry, I was checking in on this conversation while listening to Michael W. Smith's "Worship" CD.

I thought of you, PCGal, when this song played:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR0LiRiz4l4&feature=related .

While the song was nearing its end, I read the prayer request from Praxedes for PCGal and it was perfect timing:

"Carla, I'm adding my prayers to yours and PCG's parents' prayers. Anyone else here who believes in and/or has witnessed the healing powers of prayer, please join us in asking our Holy Lord for the complete healing of PCG's heart."

ProChoiceGal, whatever circumstances have shaped your life and brought you to such a point of desperation, deception by spirits of murder, independence and rebellion and a relentless pursuit of evil, I am praying that the Lord will enable you to let them go. Let go of the hurts, the offenses and the desire for revenge.

I am praying that He will have great mercy (as He has for me), pursue you and draw you unto Himself. I am praying that you will drop it all at the Cross, PCGal. I am praying the Lord will cause you to surrender your angry, broken, rebellious and diseased heart to Him.

You have huge craters in your rock-hard heart, PCGal. Yet you're concerned about your parents disowning you, so that tells me you know you're not invincible. I am praying the Holy Spirit will work mightily, give you a new heart and bring healing and wholeness to your life.

I'm praying for you too tonight, Praxedes.

With love to you both,
Ruthanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and Carla ~ Please never shush!

Carla-

There are no children involved in an abortion. I want to become an abortion provider because I love people. Go ahead and call me a liar. Anyone with half a brain should know that you're just a stranger who thinks herself superior enough to be able to read minds.

Ruthanne-

I think your prayers are misdirected, but thanks anyway.

Hi PCG,
I am no stranger here. I have been a moderator on this blog for 2 years.

I believe you want to be an abortionist. You are not lying about that. I believe that you don't think human babies in the womb are children.

I believe you are completely and totally deceived.

Superior? LOL

Ruthanne,
Thank you for your comment and your prayers!! :)

I have a question for PCG - do you believe that fetuses are human?

Good one, Marauder!!

Good morning, PCG! Time to rise and shine, up and at em. Marauder has a question for you. :)

PCG:

Child: 2 "a. An unborn infant; a fetus."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Child: 3. an unborn baby

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Yes, there is a child killed during abortion. Your goal in life is to kill children. Charming.

PCG:

Child: 2 "a. An unborn infant; a fetus."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Child: 3. an unborn baby

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Yes, there is a child killed during abortion. Your goal in life is to kill children. Charming.

PCG, I only wish you could spend time at a Silent No More Awareness event, a Rachel's Vineyard retreat, or on the PASS Support Boards, or even with the families of women who've died during a "safe and legal" abortion and spend time listening to these women and families share their abortion experiences and their grief, so that you may have a more rounded view of the whole abortion experience before you decide to become a provider.