Notre Dame update 5/17, 9:50p EST: At the Grotto

Leslie Hanks and I trekked to the alternative service held today at Notre Dame's Grotto for graduating seniors not willing to sit through a commencement honoring a supporter of child murder.

The service was led by Priest for Life's Fr. Frank Pavone...

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Leslie and I wandered to the back to get shots of the audience. We guesstimate there were 1-2k people. (Another 1k watched the service on a large screen at the South Quad.) 1st shot is the left side, 2nd shot the right....

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Then when seniors, some with their parents, began laying white roses at the feet of St. Bernadette, and I saw news photographers and videographers coming to the podium for photos, I thought, hey, I'm in...

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So I got some nice close-ups...

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Pro-life seniors painted a cross and baby feet on their mortarboards....

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Fr. John Corapi shared the podium with Fr. Pavone...

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I snapped this sweet shot of a pro-life graduate student at the Grotto and his baby...

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Comments:

I could be wrong, but it looks like the students are laying the roses at the feet of the statue of St. Bernadette, whom the Virgin Mary appeared to at the original grotto in Lourdes, France.

Posted by: Matthew at May 17, 2009 9:57 PM


Matthew, you could be entirely right. I'm not a Catholic and just thought she was Mary. Someone tell me for sure? I'll correct.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 17, 2009 10:08 PM


Yes Jill. It is St. Bernadette. She is one of the "Incorruptibles." (Saints whose bodies have not decomposed.)

I'm glad you were there to document it Jill - and Fr. Corapi! I didn't know he was going to be there.

Posted by: Kristen at May 17, 2009 10:17 PM


I think it's Bernadette.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1375/824556432_aff8acbcca.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/boblawblogger/824556432/in/set-72157600685252457/&usg=__-oyDvvR0WeBLxlbKXBpYslP9-UI=&h=375&w=500&sz=143&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=DKcyNfNIr2RjrM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbernadette%2Bstatue%2Bnotre%2Bdame%2Buniv%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1
(hope that gigantic link works!)

Jill, you have been very sensitive to Catholics in your coverage of this ND fiasco. THANK YOU.

Posted by: Fed Up at May 17, 2009 10:19 PM


My quote of the day for tomorrow may make some of you sick.

Posted by: Jasper at May 17, 2009 10:20 PM


Jill,

Thanks for making the trip to South Bend and giving us some first person commentary and visual images.

I hope the experience renewed your strength and further clarified the nature and intensity of the conflict.

It is really not about a movement or an issue. It is about justice for individual prenatal children who are the primary victims of abortion.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 17, 2009 10:21 PM


Jill,
Thank you so much for all your hard work. I'm a Catholic convert -- fairly recent -- and I'm pretty new to your blog, too (came here through americanpapist). So I didn't know you weren't Catholic until you said so. Thank you for your courage, boldness, and dedication to the truth. Thank you for seeing Catholics as your fellow laborers in the struggle to preserve the right to life. The line between good and evil has been drawn, and we must be His witnesses whatever the cost.

Posted by: Rosemary A. at May 17, 2009 10:43 PM


I'm a Catholic convert
Welcome home :)

Posted by: Fed Up at May 17, 2009 10:46 PM


Jill thanks for going when so many of us were unable to make it. I am not Catholic, but had spent many an hour at Notre Dame over the years when I lived in Michigan and Indiana. I am appalled at Notre Dame for allowing this to happen, the message it sends to parishioners/students . I am proud of those who stood up for their religion/beliefs. God bless all, and congratulations!

Posted by: Joni Tompkins at May 17, 2009 10:48 PM


Fed Up (10:46)

Thank you! It's good to be home! :) Rosemary

Posted by: Rosemary A. at May 17, 2009 10:51 PM


Corapi AND Pavone??

Titans.

I so dig the cross and baby feet image. Ha!

Had you met or heard Corapi before, Jill? That man has stories to tell. I mean the kind of stuff that makes your hair stand on end. He's done it all. He should have been dead from drug overdose.

One of my favorite sayings from him is that he lived most of his life with one foot in hell and the other on a banana peel.

Posted by: carder at May 17, 2009 11:19 PM


Will someone please tell me if one less child will be wrenched from it's mother's womb tomorrow, or nest week, or next year because of what did or did not happen today at Notre Dame?

Obama just turned abortion from a moral issue into an opinion issue and that with the very help of the one church that took a firm stand against it. He took our collective pro-life face and rubbed it in his personally deposited mountain of crap and we all looked up and just smiled.

What you fail to realize is that today was the equivalent of a Nagasaki or Hiroshima on the pro-life movement. We have been neutered. We have become eunuchs in the battle to protect innocent life.

Until pro-lifers understand what it's going to take to stop this holocaust, nothing will change. To end slavery it took a civil war. Perhaps those in the know, those that pull the strings, sense a change in anti-abortion sentiment and hope this all goes away. Perhaps that is why the pope totally wimped out on this issue. How long did it take this country to get itself involved in WWII?

Face it folks, the writing is on the wall and we need to stop fooling around with this.

We have a madman, abortion obsessed president in power and it seems we pro-lifers are content to be able to just protest while the pro-abort movement gains more and more power and kills more and more children.

In the meantime, using the abortion issue to its full benefit, Barack Obama firms his power base and the militant feminists that support him firm their power base. Remember this, it only takes about a 3,000,000 voter swing to take the presidency and abortion is the difference. Obama and his murderous cohorts are smart enough to know this and he played the Catholic Church like a fiddle.

As I have said before numerous times. Abortion is not about rights, it's about raw political power. It's the football in a football game, it's the baseball in a baseball game. Whoever controls the ball controls the game and right now the bullies have control of the ball. Pro-aborts have had the ball in their court for too long and it's time to take it back by force.

Ask yourselves this question: Are you all truly "pro-life"? If 3,000 five years olds were being murdered every day, how many of you would just be content with holding a "Stop 5 Year Old Murder Now" sign on a Sunday along the route to Notre Dame that the President didn't take and the media didn't see? I mean Nancy Grace would be a basket case more than she is now. How many of you would be content with just showing a sign with a dead 5 year old laying there with a bullet in it's head? Would your actions change? Is abortion murder and if it is, is it the same as killing a five year old or not? Then why in God's name aren't we acting like we really believe it's murder?

It's like we're the Pro-life Stepford Wives in a trance, without a clue on how to get out of this mess. 36 years and 50,000,000....that's 50 million.....that's 50 thousand, thousand children murdered and what do we do, we hold up abortion signs and give speeches and drop names. It's a joke. This is a freaking war.

How many so-called pro-life activists and leaders make a living at this stuff and have become celebrities as a result? It they acted the same way if five year olds were being murdered, we'd be laughing at them and find real leadership to stop the killing.

There is only one way to now resolve this abortion issue and I am sorry to say it will be a civil war or God will act in severe judgment. I don't want it, I don't seek it, but I think it is unavoidable.

Hal, Bystander, Reality, and all you other child murderers....congratulations.....you appear to have won and for now we have been soundly defeated.......

Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 11:26 PM


Jill thank you so much for covering! Im so saddened that I wasnt able to make the trip up with hubby and kids in tow this weekend! We were with you in prayer!


folks.. I can attest- Jill is more catholic than many of the Catholics out there..lol ;-) Keep praying to St Monica!!! lol

Posted by: Yvonne at May 17, 2009 11:31 PM


http://archives.nd.edu/ringel/grotto.htm

This site shows photos of the grotto at Notre Dame. There is a statue of the Virgin Mary above the votive candles, and one of St. Bernadette, as shown above. Thanks, Jill, for the commentary and all the information from this day.

Posted by: Luana at May 17, 2009 11:44 PM


HisMan, the blood of the murdered unborn children is not on pro-lifer's hands, it's on the hands of the baby-killers and those who support them. If you become a vigilante, then all the blood you spill will be on your hands. That is not what God calls us to do.

What we also don't need are the existing laws that compromise on "Thou shalt not murder" like informed consent laws, etc. Not one of those laws has the authority to stop even one abortion.

What we do need is to band together as pro-lifers to establish the personhood of the unborn. That's how William Wilberforce ended slavery in England.

Posted by: Scott Evans at May 17, 2009 11:55 PM


HisMan, the blood of the murdered unborn children is not on pro-lifer's hands, it's on the hands of the baby-killers and those who support them. If you become a vigilante, then all the blood you spill will be on your hands. That is not what God calls us to do.

What we also don't need are the existing laws that compromise on "Thou shalt not murder" like informed consent laws, etc. Not one of those laws has the authority to stop even one abortion.

What we do need is to band together as pro-lifers to establish the personhood of the unborn. That's how William Wilberforce ended slavery in England.

Posted by: Scott Evans at May 17, 2009 11:55 PM


Scott:

Who said anything about becoming a vigilante?

If you read the post is makes a case that because we have been soundly defeated, the only thing that can resolve this is a civil war and not the stuff we are currently doing.

I made an observation and it is a correct one. I said nothing about me becoming a vigilante.

Posted by: HisMan at May 18, 2009 12:04 AM


"This is a freaking war."

Then why don't you shoot someone? Put your money where your mouth is.

Posted by: A Woman at May 18, 2009 12:19 AM


Hisman, it's easy to say "Someone else should go out there and stop abortion" but to actually do it takes balls. You are the eunuch you are talking about.

Posted by: A Woman at May 18, 2009 12:22 AM


A Woman, actually, with all the people protesting at ND today, I was a bit concerned that one of them would go a bit nutty and take a shot at President Obama. I'm glad that his safety was well looked after.

Posted by: Erin at May 18, 2009 12:33 AM


HisMan: While I pretty much agree with your thoughts, (and no, I don't think you're a vigilante ) what else CAN we as pro-lifers do?????

WE are LIMITED in our actions because of politics.
WE can't pick Supreme Court Justices.
WE can't control lobbyists and liberals who pump money into the abortion industry.

You're absolutely right: It's all about power.
The power of the liberals who feed and keep the abortion industry alive.

I do take offense though at your minimizing the protestors and their signs, etc. At least it's witness to the issue. If ONE person's view on abortion is forever changed based on the witnessing and sigh carrying of pro-lifers, it's better than nothing, isn't it ?

What do you propose we do ????? Start assassinating all liberal pro-abortion politicians ?????

You sound like you're throwing in the proverbial towel.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing will change until people's hearts and minds change.

Posted by: Mike at May 18, 2009 1:15 AM


SO many things to say - but first and foremost - THANK God for you, Jill! Thank you so much for this coverage, because without seeing this SO many people would not know how big a turn out there was - because all the msm (main stream media) shows is the Obamatrons.

It IS indeed a war, but not one that is carried out with man made weapons! The rhetoric banded about by pro-death and pro-life people has gotten ugly at times - and it has hit me close to home how prayful I must be, and how my temperment and responses must be Christlike.

I always think of Poland - when *man* says this is a worthless cause - they (The Poles - JPII) never let up on their faith, the truth - the eternal rewards, despite the Nazis - despite Communism...

God Bless!

Posted by: elizabethk at May 18, 2009 3:24 AM


Perhaps that is why the pope totally wimped out on this issue.
Posted by: HisMan at May 17, 2009 11:26 PM

Please stop trashing the Holy Father! For the umpteenth time, ND is run by a board of trustees, not the Church. In 1967 ND was transferred from the Holy Cross Fathers to a board of trustees (lay people). ND is a private university with a Catholic charter. Here are the facts:

1- Bishop D'arcy and the Pope have no authority over ND because it is private and not owned by the Church or governed by an order (as it was before it was transferred in '67).

2- Fr Jenkins works for the university not the Church. He has a contract with the university, the terms of which the superiors in his order, the bishop of his diocese, and the Pope himself must honor. In other words, no one in the Church can yank him off the board. You can go to ND's web site and read their charter, bylaws, etc yourself if you disbelieve me.

3- The board of trustees at ND is not obligated to seek Church permission regarding its actions. The most any Church official, including the Pope, can do is revoke their charter as a Catholic university, which would not have prevented the awarding of the honorary degree or today's speech from taking place.

4- Pope Benedict governs by subsidiarity. As a conservative, I assume you want to be governed (in a secular sense) the same way. Do you want the feds barging into local affairs that can be managed by your municipal or state government? If not, why criticise the Pope for governing this way?

In short, HisMan, the Pope could not have rescinded the invitation or honorary degree, nor can he remove Fr J from ND's board of trustees. He believes that any matter of discipline regarding his actions as a priest should be decided by the superiors in his order (the Congregation of the Holy Cross). And in case you're wondering, one of his top officials (Abp Burke) seems to be monitoring the situation closely.

Posted by: Fed Up at May 18, 2009 3:24 AM


What a bunch of bs. Reducing unwanted pregnancy is the main issue and goal.

Posted by: Rodney King at May 18, 2009 5:32 AM


His Man, great post! However, I want to let you know that I am doing my part. Im out in front of 2 abortion clinics these days. Sidewalk counseling. Many others stand with me. I've never considered myself a wimp! I stand out in the ghetto with no weapons. God is all I need. However, we get a lot of honking in support of us, but we need more people out there! And the unfortunate part about it is our president himself, and his radical views on abortion! I mean, what MORE can we do???

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 5:45 AM


And His Man, you know that I respect you. Do you have any ideas? What more could we, or should we be doing?

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 5:46 AM


And yes His Man, you are 100% correct in stating that talking to SOME of these pro-deathers in totally maddening! You think it's bad on this blog? Try standing in front of an abortion clinic! You'll see and hear it all! His Man, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if abortion clinic protests are going to be made illegal in the near. Just like Canada. I hope Joanne comes on site today. I have ???? for her. She lives in Canada.

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 5:52 AM


AND ABOVE ALL...don't forget, we have the most anti-life president in history! We have Napolitano putting out letters about us being terrorists. It's coming!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 5:55 AM


Rodney King, how are you planning on pulling that off? How are you personally going to help reduce the # of abortions?

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 6:04 AM


Carder, 11:10p: No, I didn't know that was Fr. Corapi until someone told me, and I still don't know why he's so popular. I've just heard his name a lot and knew Catholics would like to see his photo.

All: Thanks for kind words about my coverage of this event. This was personal for me because of my dealings with Obama. I'm explained before that although I'm not Catholic I feel a great affinity and protectiveness of the Catholic Church because of its stand and instruction on the life issue and because it is an incestrial component of my faith.

All: Ok, I'll change the title on that one photo to St. Bernadette.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at May 18, 2009 6:12 AM


I am truly grateful for the witness of these students, family and friends at the Grotto as well as the witness of the street protesters. Thank you to Jill for being there and sharing this for those of us who couldn't be there physically but were joined with you in prayerful solidarity for LIFE and a shared disgust at our anti-life president's policies.

Posted by: Grateful at May 18, 2009 6:38 AM


Anon, a fetus is a person. What you personally think, doesn't matter.

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 6:46 AM


Anon 6:44am

Let's turn the clock back a few hundred years.

We no longer live under a king so the gov't has no right to dictate if a person can or cannot own a slave. This is after all a nation of religious freedom and my religious convictions are not in conflict at all with the right to choose to own a slave.

I personally do not believe that black slaves are persons. Maybe they have some potential somewhere down the line, but they are not persons.

It would be best if all you caring persons put the black slave lower on your priority list and take care of our nation's real problems.

Posted by: Mary at May 18, 2009 7:12 AM


His Man, I asked you a question a thread or 2 down. I mean this comment with the utmost respect. We discussed Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers a few days ago. Okay. If we ALL need to be "doing our part" to stop abortion, then I ask you, why aren't Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, and Creflo Dollar talking about it?

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 7:32 AM


The abortion issue must be discusse from ALL pulpits!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 7:37 AM


A lot of the African American churches neglect to discuss abortion. I can't help but think that this is why teir abortion rate is so high!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 7:40 AM


*sorry for all the typos above posts*

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 7:44 AM


Jill:

If you have time, perhaps you could start looking into T. Denny Sanford's purchasing AN ENTIRE HEALTH SYSTEM in South Dakota - which has been ground zero in the abortion battle since 2003.

Something strange happened during Obama's speech at ND, when he referenced embryonic stem cell therapy and specifically mentioned Juvenile diabetes. The history on Sanford Health, Sanford Research, and Sanford Children's is rather extensive, but I would be glad to give you what I know, and probably so would Steve (www.voicescarryblog.com). See Steve's latest blog post on ND graduation and my comment for a little information: http://www.voicescarryblog.com/515/#comments

Email me or contact Steve if you are interested in more info. Any help on getting the word out about what is going on with Sanford Health and Sanford Research in SD would be greatly appreciated.

Posted by: Amy at May 18, 2009 7:58 AM


Last week's Pew poll found only 22% of Americans believing abortion should be illegal.
22% !!

You folks are talking about abortion in moral terms, when it's clearly just a mathematical issue.
The power you seek to change the present reality is a chimera. We are a nation that allows abortion. Full stop.

Perhaps you should direct your energy to some other cause ...Pot holes...Annoying car alarms...

Posted by: Farslowe at May 18, 2009 8:19 AM


Also, I meant to address Lyssie on this blog. Lyssie, God Bless your heart for coming on over to the PL side! We need you!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 8:19 AM


Perhaps you should direct your energy to some other cause ...Pot holes...Annoying car alarms...


Posted by: Farslowe at May 18, 2009 8:19 AM--------------------------------------------------------- No thanks.

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 8:28 AM


great coverage Jill and yes thank-you for being sensitive to us Catholics - this has truly been a difficult cross to bear.

HisMan: this is but one battle in the war. We may have "lost" this one in some ways but in others we have used this situation to get out the prolife message with substantial media coverage. Have you forgotten that the battle has already been won by Christ himself!?? Do not give into to despair, this is what Satan wants!

Mike: I agree, we will NEVER win until people have a conversion of heart. It does not appear that pictures, videos etc really have a significant impact. I think in the end it will come down to who is willing to pay the piper. By that I mean, we who are truly prolife must pray and do penance for those who will not. When there are enough people doing this, abortion will end.

I am reminded of a situation in the US where a group of prolifers would go and sidewalk counsel outside an abortion clinic ONLY while another group went before the Blessed Sacrament and PRAYED. Every time, the succeeded in getting women away from the clinic. IMO, we need alot more of this praying by good Christians everywhere.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 8:32 AM


angel,
I would love to see a prayerful presence outside every abortion clinic in the nation. 24/7/365. The 40 Days for Life is just the start!!

Posted by: Carla at May 18, 2009 8:45 AM


"You folks are talking about abortion in moral terms, when it's clearly just a mathematical issue."

I've taken 6 years of graduate level mathematics and abortion has never once come up.

But believe me, if it did, math would show that abortion is a demonic evil.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 18, 2009 8:52 AM


I am impressed with the number of people at the alternate service.
Personally I like this from Canada's National Post article (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1602113) written by Fr. De Souza

If there is any abortion--anywhere, at any time, for any reason-- that President Obama does not think should be legal and funded by the government if need be, he has not indicated it thus far. A coherent Catholic pro-life witness does not extend to such a man an honorary doctorate of laws.


But in choosing this Sunday not to fight the good fight for the prolife cause, Notre Dame is a little less lovable. There is no shortage of places which would extend to President Obama a full measure of messianic adoration. Notre Dame should know better, for she has another Messiah.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 8:58 AM


how about this mathematical equation:

n squared + abortion = dead baby


where n= fear, lack of support, ambivalence, coercion etc.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 9:19 AM


Bobby - you could do a mathematical model of the effect abortion has on population demographics. Turning it into a visualization application would be great.

I think people seeing the mass-effect of abortion would change the basis of their political arguments.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault Author Profile Page at May 18, 2009 9:30 AM


Heather:

That's a great question. I don't know Joel Osteen or Creflo Dollar nor do I even listen to their preaching. As far as Joyce Meyers goes, I think she believes it's not her calling to be battling abortion. Perhaps they wish to stay out of the controversy. TD Jakes who I used to really respect supported Obama so he's off my list for good. I guess these people, whose monthly nuts are huge, realize that in order to keep the donations flowing, it's better to stay away from the abortion issue.

Alan Keyes seems to be the only one that puts it all on the line, but honestly, he hasn't changed his delivery one bit. He comes off as very arrogant and that's a turn off so you have to wonder what his true motives are.

It's amazing when I intentionally post a very controversial comment how many wacky responses one gets from being called a eunuch, a vigilante, etc. to being accused of dissing the pope. And "A Woman" I can assure you I'm no eunuch. I just merely stated what the pope did....nothing....oh, he sent some other dud to take the hit? Wow, what a manly ting to do. C'mon, he insulated himself from the fray. The RCC did the same thing in WWII when swift action could have saved millions. Even Pope John Paul said this and apologized for it. Can't you people handle the truth?

I merely made an objective observation and it seems the pro-life community is not willing to stand back and do an honest evaluation of themselves. What happened yesterday was a total defeat. Admit it.

It is only when an alcoholic admits what he is and where he's at that he can begin to heal and make changes. Our heads were handed to us on a plate yesterday.

We have a history of 36 years of dismal failure to stop abortions....that's a fact, not a criticism. You can say otherwise all you want but, until we stop abortion altogether we are deluding ourselves.

Something different must be done and if any of you understood English and actually read and studied my post it seems to me that the only thing that will change the abortion equation is a civil war because really, haven't we tried just about everything else? What did it take for slavery to end?

I'm not advocating war, I'm not saying we should do it but, if someone has any better ideas let me know.

What we have right now is an entrenched power base of powerless pro-life leaders who seem to be content with the way things are.

If you do not want to admit the truth to yourselves continue in your watered down approach.

What, we had how many pro-life leaders get arrested out there.....12? Why weren't Corapi or Pavone arrested? Seems like here was an opportunity to make a real statement, to take a real stand, and poof.....the opportunity has passed.

If you lived in the 60's what did it take for the civil rights movement to gain momentum? Yep, the shedding of innocent blood of protesters and Martin Luther King, Jr. himself. I don't think any of us, including me, can truly call ourselves pro-life until we are willing to die for those innocent children that are being slaughtered every day. Ask yourself, "Am I willing to die for this cause"?

So, in conclusion, the pro-life movement needs new direction, it needs people who are literally willing to be arrested, give up their incomes, their families, yes, their very lives. The battle to end slavery is historical proof of this. Until each one of us makes this decision, including myself, we are going nowhere and in the meantime those in current leadership make nice livings and get to travel and speak and get alot of atta boys for doing well....not very much in terms of the big picture.

Are we changing hearts and minds? Sure, a few here and a few there but we need millions of heart and mind changes not hundreds, not even thousands.

This is an honest observation. Criticize me all you want but I am tired of playing the fool in dealing with the likes of Bystander, Reality and Hal while they laugh all the way to the bank.

Answer this, what will we all do when FOCA passes and it will? Will that be the catalyst that finally ignites the firestorm? I guess we'll find out.

Posted by: HisMan at May 18, 2009 9:46 AM


God is still in control. His timing is perfect.

Posted by: Carla at May 18, 2009 9:58 AM


"It would be nice for all you caring people to put the fetus lower on your piority lists and aim all that caring and compassion to real existing people who have needs (as Jesus asked us to do). "

The Angel Gabriel came to Mother Mary and told her she was carrying (a real existing fetus) of our Savior in her womb. It's a good thing she chose LIFE, don't you think?

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 10:00 AM


Angel:

And what is Christ's victory? Is it not the assurance of heaven? Is it not His example that to make real change one must be willing to even die on a cross? Isn't this what Paul and all the martyrs told us?

Do we really believe that we will go to heaven when we die?

Why then aren't we giving it all up to save the lives of innocent children?

I am not criticing any of you for posting against abortion, but let's ask ourselves, is this enough? Is this just making me feel good that somehow I am doing something? There seems to be so few of us and is that something enough?

Yes, I believe Christ has already won the victory, the real question is, will I embrace that victory to the point of death? Will any of us?

Until we answer that question individually, we are viewed as really just clanging symbols and bags of wind, posting empty words on an electronic network.

Posted by: HisMan at May 18, 2009 10:00 AM


HisMan,

Good points. I love your comment about Nancy Grace. She must be anti-abortion........ let's get her involved.

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 10:03 AM


This is America with many types of people, languages, customs (yes, they were at one time all anglo customs but this is 2009) and religions. We don't have a "Taliban" type goverment so the goverment does not have the right to have any say on if a woman should or should not have an abortion. I personally do not believe a fetus is a person, a potential person yes but not a person. It would be nice for all you caring people to put the fetus lower on your piority lists and aim all that caring and compassion to real existing people who have needs (as Jesus asked us to do). I know he asked us to do many things and if we all personally did them the world would be so much better. Please reorganize you lists there are sooo many more important things in the world that need you.

Posted by: Anonymous at May 18, 2009 6:44 AM

I'm not sure how advocating for the rights of innocent human beings has anything to do with wanting a Taliban-like government. Justice is everyone's business, and it is a completely American to use legal channels (voting, corresponding with public officials, volunteering, literature distribution, debating) to change cultural notions and/or push for certain laws. It is a scientific fact that human life begins at conception, therefore the fetus (which is Latin for "offspring" or "little one") is a member of the human species. These are "real existing persons who have needs," as you put it, and therefore worthy of being high on my priority list. Historically speaking, personhood has been defined to suit the arbitrary wishes of those in power. It is a moral imperative to insist that all human beings, especially the most vulnerable, are protected. If you personally feel convicted by issues other than abortion and believe you would be most effective adressing those problems, then that's fine and good. But please realize that all cases of injustice are worthy of action.

Posted by: Janette at May 18, 2009 10:04 AM


Many of us are "out there" doing all we can for the unborn and their mothers. Volunteering at CPC's, giving time, money and attention to prolife activities, raising children that love Jesus and ALL life, and most importantly PRAYING and BESEECHING God to forgive us and heal our land.

Posted by: Carla at May 18, 2009 10:06 AM


Would I die for my cause? Yes!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 10:21 AM


HisMan: I AM doing what I can for the prolife cause: raising children who fully believe that abortion is wrong.
That is MY duty at this time.
In the past, I've done pretty much everything: protesting, side walk counseling and working with pregnant women in difficult situations. I've sat on prolife board of directors etc. Hell, I've even booked fake abortion appointments to fill the rosters at clinics!
If there comes a time when I can do more, I will do it.
For now, it's pray and teach my children. And witness when I can in the workplace.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 10:42 AM


As I look at these images of graduation in humble settings, I'm reminded of a manger for some reason.

"The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."

Paraphrase: "The president has a podium and the reagents have their positions, but the graduates with integrity are relegated to a grotto."

Some heard God, and others listened to Obama. Which group will remember this day with more gratitude?

Posted by: rasqual at May 18, 2009 10:44 AM


rasqual: quite good! Thank-you for that.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 10:46 AM


HisMan, the new poll that Jill posted last week said that 51% of Americans are pro-life on abortion! This is amazing! This is terrifica progress, regardless of these so-called lost battles. We may seem to be losing, but in the war of winning hearts, it appears we are winning.

Who knows how many hearts were changed by this massive, peaceful protest. I normally don't go for these kinds of protests (showing the truthful, gruesome photos) but in this case, I think it may have been appropriate.

Also, we do not know the effect that this controversary will have on the future of Notre Dame. Perhaps they will lose their Catholic charter. Perhaps Fr. Jenkins will lose his job. Who knows? I don't think anything else could have been done other than what was done.

Posted by: Eileen at May 18, 2009 10:57 AM


Eileen: I am hopeful that what this WILL accomplish is to demonstrate to the Catholic hierarchy in America what the true state of affairs is with Catholicism. If they had any doubts about the effect of 40 years of dissent and watered down moral teaching, they have been rudely removed.

As I stated on another thread, the Catholic bishops in North America need to clean house. They need to do public penance for their lack of duty. They need to uphold Catholic teaching and discipline all Catholics in public life who cause scandal.
Most importantly they need to recover Catholics in their faith by talking about the teachings of the Church from the pulpit and through parish life.
I think ND is simply the tip of the iceberg.

Posted by: angel at May 18, 2009 11:05 AM


HisMan -

I only sporadically drop in here of late, but it's always good to read what you have to say. Your "let's be honest" remarks above are spot-on.

I remember -- actually remember -- when Francis Schaeffer and C. Everett Koop brought Evangelicals into the pro-life movement, years behind their Catholic brothers and sisters. Now, alas, at this late date, Catholics lag 7 points in being pro-life, and many more points in voting for Obama.

As an Evangelical, my fellowship with Catholics generally consists of expressing my strong appreciation for the substantive, sound teachings of John Paul II on many issues (certainly life), my gratitude for the current pope's work as Cardinal on the catechism, the work of Thomas Aquinas, the example of the saints, and so forth. There's so much to be positive about!

But of late, I'm getting depressed. When I hear of Catholics who expect to receive the Mass while remaining firmly entrenched pro-abortion advocates, I become angry. Evangelicals, of course, do not understand the Mass as Catholics do. But that doesn't prevent me from getting angry at Catholics who, IMO, abuse the Mass from the standpoint of their own understanding: these folks wish to receive grace from God, while extending none to the unborn. Going beyond a responsible exegesis, I nevertheless find an analogy here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2018:21-35;&version=51;

Remember the film "the Mission?" In the culture wars, I guess I'm over there with Rodrigo -- even though as he lay dying and looking to see whether Father Gabriel's way could carry the day, he died seeing that neither way did.

The soldiers who destroyed the mission and killed its people doubtless returned to their own parish, and celebrated the Mass as well. This contradiction is at least as disturbing -- but I think moreso -- than is any militaristic attempt to resist power in order to advance grace.

(my point here is not one of violent resistance to the US government, but of secular action)

Posted by: rasqual at May 18, 2009 11:20 AM


Abortion is a Math issue???

No wonder the Lefties have reached the wrong conclusion.

Also Lefties must rely on rags such as Time magazine, so they would not be informed concerning the process of the Catholic Church addressing Notre Dame.

Posted by: KB at May 18, 2009 12:25 PM


Heck, if I was an employer I'd be interested in seeing their resumes. Their actions obviously indicate a degree of willing sacrifice in deference to conscience -- something any employer (well, any ethical one ;-) would take interest in.

Posted by: rasqual at May 18, 2009 1:08 PM


Anon 1:04,
One TV news source stated twenty students were part of the grotto ceremony.

*****
Rush L. was trying to figure out why Obama want abortion "rare" if there's nothing wrong with it. He even mentioned the lack of logic in Obama's statement regarding BAIPA - about the additional burden that would be put on a woman if her baby were born alive after a "botched" abortion. It was good to hear that. Hal, are you listening? Let's see how many in the MSM are able to refute Obama's record on BAIPA. NONE, I suspect.

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 3:13 PM


Farlowe 8:19am

Was that illegal in ALL circumstances or only in certain circumstances?

Please be specific.

I would certainly support abortion where absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother. I would not fall under the "all circumstances" category.

Posted by: Mary at May 18, 2009 3:33 PM


Mary,
Would it still be called an abortion? In the case of ectopic pregnancy none of my friends would ever say they had an abortion.

Is there a medical term I am missing? The intent is to save the life of the mother, not kill the child as in abortion.

Posted by: Carla at May 18, 2009 4:57 PM


HisMan, the new poll that Jill posted last week said that 51% of Americans are pro-life on abortion! This is amazing! This is terrifica progress, regardless of these so-called lost battles. We may seem to be losing, but in the war of winning hearts, it appears we are winning.

Who knows how many hearts were changed by this massive, peaceful protest. I normally don't go for these kinds of protests (showing the truthful, gruesome photos) but in this case, I think it may have been appropriate.

Also, we do not know the effect that this controversary will have on the future of Notre Dame. Perhaps they will lose their Catholic charter. Perhaps Fr. Jenkins will lose his job. Who knows? I don't think anything else could have been done other than what was done.

Posted by: Eileen at May 18, 2009 10:57 AM
______________________

Eileen:

Look at it this way.

If they were killing 3,000 five year olds every single day for the last 36 years and then this poll comes out and says said "99% of Americans are pro-five-year-olds" and the killing went on, wouldn't this seem just a little absurd to you?

These polls mean nothing. The real pole is taken every day with the ever increasing body count.

Posted by: HisMan at May 18, 2009 5:54 PM


Posted by: Anonymous at May 18, 2009 6:44 AM


"I personally do not

believe

a [human] fetus is a person, a potential person yes but not a person."

------------------------------------------------------

Wow, that is bold declaration of faith!

Did you mean to say that upon a carefull review of all availalble scieintific evidence I conclude and I am convinced that the human embryo/fetus is not a 'person'?

In your studied and learned opinion can one be human and not a person?

If that is what you mean, then please share with us the prdictable steps of logic that led you to that conclusion.

When does a 'feline' embryo/fetus become fully a cat?

Or better yet, when is a feline not a cat?

If you consciously intende for your 'belief' to be a statement of faith and not of fact, then share with us the revelation which provided you with the basis for your faith.

Do you believe there is fairy or sprite or imp that stands with magic wand in hand awaiting at terminus of the birth canal to bestow life and identity upon every creature that emerges?

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at May 18, 2009 5:59 PM


Carla,
I don't consider a removal of an ectopic pregnancy an abortion.
Perhaps a doctor could comment. As I understand there is NO medical reason for abortion for which abortion must be legal.
Normal care for a pregnancy isn't abortion.

Mary,
Are you referring to ectopic pregnancy with this statement?
"I would certainly support abortion where absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother. I would not fall under the "all circumstances" category."

Posted by: Janet at May 18, 2009 8:37 PM


Hisman: "If they were killing 3,000 five year olds every single day for the last 36 years and then this poll comes out and says said "99% of Americans are pro-five-year-olds" and the killing went on, wouldn't this seem just a little absurd to you?"

Hisman,
But the fact is is that many Americans DON'T see unborn children the same as 5-year-olds, even though pro-lifers do. So the fact that now 51% of Americans DO see them as the same is progress.

I guess I don't understand what else we should be doing? If we were to react act too extremely then people don't listen. (Which is why Randall Terry concerns me.) We cannot win this unless hearts change.

How do you think is the best way to change hearts?

Posted by: Eileen at May 18, 2009 10:27 PM


Ectopic pregnancies will kill the woman, so I do not object to a life saving surgery.

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 10:34 PM


I agree with Mike's post! We are limited as PLfers b/c of our government's POWER! It's unfortunate to see that all of these so called "smart" people don't understand that abortion is homicide of the worst kind! OR, if they do know the truth, their seat in politics matters to them more!!!

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 10:48 PM


Trust me. Abortion sickens me to my core! And the lies upon lies from these radical feminists and liberals are just pushing their cause on! More and more death camps are being built, and we can't stop it. Like it or not, there are a lot of things that are out of our control.

Posted by: heather at May 18, 2009 10:52 PM


Keep fighting, Heather! More and more CPC's are opening up as well! You are not alone, girl!

Posted by: Carla at May 19, 2009 7:39 AM


Hi Carla 4:57PM

I would suppose that technically one could call it an abortion though I have never heard it referred to as such.
It is a necessary life saving surgical procedure, often times very heartbreaking for the woman. There is simply no other option.

Thankfully in this day and age there is better early diagnosis that can prevent rupture and surgical procedures that can save the Fallopian tube.

Posted by: Mary at May 19, 2009 8:24 AM


Janet 8:37PM

Unfortunately there can be circumstances where a mother's life is at risk and a decision may have to be made to abort. Massive uterine infection being one.

I know of a case several years ago in a Catholic hospital where I worked where the woman't blood pressure could not be brought under control, despite every effort being made to do so. Out of control BP certainly threatened her life and she was aborted.

At another local hospital a young woman was induced at 5 months because of severe fetal and placental anomolies totally incompatible with life. A normal full term delivery would have been impossible and a full term C-section could have been life threatening.

It should be pointed out that both these women could get the care and treatment they needed at the local hospital. No need to go to any abortion clinics or see Tiller.

I certainly support abortion under these types of circumstances, which thankfully are rare.

Posted by: Mary at May 19, 2009 8:33 AM


Mary,
Such heartbreaking stories! I agree that a hospital would be so much better than Tiller's place! A doctor would certainly try to do what is best for both of his patients!
I have a friend that went through the exact experience you describe in your 3rd paragraph. She is thankful the intent of inducing her was to save her life and she appreciated holding her baby before he died.

Posted by: Carla at May 19, 2009 8:48 AM


Hi Carla 8:43am

The fact is pregnant women always could get the necessary care they needed, safely and legally, at any hospital equipped to handle their needs.
Roe was not necessary to save a woman's life or to preserve her health.

Also advances in medical care, medical specialists, better diagnosis, etc. has made abortion less necessary.

I recall a deathly sick woman showing up in our OR, after midnite, following her "safe legal" abortion. She had a high fever and obvious infection.
Thanks to better surgical techniques, fluid therapy, and antibiotics she was discharged the next day.

It was awkward because her mother was with her and being she was a competent legal adult, we could not discuss anything with her mother. I have no idea if she knew what had happened to her daughter, but it was up to the daughter to tell her mother whatever she wanted.

Posted by: Mary at May 19, 2009 8:57 AM


Another thing Carla,

This also puts the kabosh to any argument that Tiller saves women's lives. Any pregnant woman who's health or life is threatened can go to any hospital equipped to handle her needs.
Any OB/GYN who does not see to it that his/her patient gets the specialized care they need under these circumstances should have their license pulled.

Posted by: Mary at May 19, 2009 9:01 AM


Do you work with the doctors who have to save these women after their safe, legal and rare abortions? What in the world do the docs and nurses think??

Posted by: Carla at May 19, 2009 10:03 AM


HiCarla,

I've only seen a few cases come to surgery, including a minor who had an abortion without parental consent. Thankfully her complications were picked up by a doctor she happened to see for an ENT problem! He then referred her to an OB/GYN. Most are treated by their own doctors in their offices and I would have no knowledge of those numbers.
What do we think? I really don't know about the others, but we just do our jobs.

I know the surgeon in my above mentioned post returned to the OR in a rage after calling the abortionist to tell him about having to operate on his patient. He was angry at the abortionist's complete indifference. The abortionist brushed off the surgeon as you "pl doctors".
The surgeon reminded him that an injured and seriously ill woman, not anyone's politics was the only issue here and he(surgeon) thought the abortionist might, just might, be concerned, especially since the surgeon's partner had treated another one of the abortionist's patients in her office.
Again, complete indifference.

Posted by: Mary at May 19, 2009 10:19 AM


Thanks Mary.
I love to pick your brain!!

It must be "all in a day's work" for an abortionist.

Posted by: Carla at May 19, 2009 10:27 AM


Jill,
Thank you so much for your tireless work for the rights of ALL humans, ALL persons, natural conception to natural death! I'm sure more than a few people have benefited from your witness to LIFE.

HisMan,
I find it ironic, that on a post of Jill Stanek's, you would claim that we have lost. Do you not remember that this is all a part of Our Creator's plan? Do you not think that He is alive and well in the world, working to open the hearts of His children? The resources He has given us are far more effective than any gun. And I know, I know, you claim not to endorse a civil war, yet you repeatedly ask what is the alternative, though it is being told to you over and over again. LOVE is the alternative. See your neighbor, not as the Enemy, but as a possible comrade. When we are given the graces to KNOW that these lives are HUMAN and are those of living PERSONS, we become responsible for conversions to this understanding. Let the Lord open hearts and minds through you.

President Obama's speech at ND was riddled with arrogance, but he did (ineloquently) make a point which merits some consideration. That is, that we must come to the debate with the understanding that the other person is well-intentioned. Good intentions pave even the road to Hell.

What I am *trying* to say is, we must appeal to the other side's humanity, their soul, their inner goodness... as well as backing up our argument with a strong scientific base.

Posted by: MaryRose at May 19, 2009 6:41 PM


My girlfriend lost her son to a rare condition called HELLP. She was about 4 months pregnant, and they had to take Austin via emergency c-section. Her platlets began to drop. This is another illness that I've heard about that was life-threatening.

Posted by: heather at May 19, 2009 8:43 PM