"Obama surfs through"

paglia.jpgPro-abort columnist Camille Paglia wrote a great piece in liberal Salon magazine yesterday, joining the growing list of Obama-supporting journalists writing morning after confessionals.

The excerpt I'm posting is lengthy but very good. Paglia's bold, brave thoughts on Palin, who "as a pro-life wife, mother and ambitious professional represents the next big shift in feminism," come near the end.

But Paglia is also the 1st credentialed liberal I've seen express serious concern about Obama's birth certificate, questions about which I've been dismissing as conspiracy theory. And Paglia spotlights the very creepy side (aside from the terrorist side) of Bill Ayers' wife Elizabeth Dohrn. Makes me want to rent the Weather Underground documentary she rented.

Read the excerpt on page 2.

[HT: America's Right via Arlene and Karen]

Excerpt from "Obama surfs through"...

As I've watched Obama gracefully step up to podiums or move through crowds, I've been reminded not of basketball, with its feints and pivots, but of surfing, that art form of his native Hawaii. A photograph of Obama body surfing on vacation was widely publicized in August. But I'm talking about big-time competitive surfing, as in this stunning video tribute to the death-defying Laird Hamilton (who, like Obama, was raised fatherless in Hawaii). Obama's ability to stay on his feet and outrun the most menacing waves that threaten to engulf him seems to embody the breezy, sunny spirit of the American surfer.

In the closing weeks of the election, however, I became increasingly disturbed by the mainstream media's avoidance of forthright dealing with several controversies that had been dogging Obama -- even as every flimsy rumor about Sarah Palin was being trumpeted as if it were engraved in stone on Mount Sinai. For example, I had thought for many months that the flap over Obama's birth certificate was a tempest in a teapot. But simple questions about the certificate were never resolved to my satisfaction. Thanks to their own blathering, fanatical overkill, of course, the right-wing challenges to the birth certificate never gained traction.

But Obama could have ended the entire matter months ago by publicly requesting Hawaii to issue a fresh, long-form, stamped certificate and inviting a few high-profile reporters in to examine the document and photograph it. (The campaign did make the "short-form" certificate available to Factcheck.org, a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania.) And why has Obama not made his university records or thesis work widely available? The passivity of the press toward Bush administration propaganda about weapons of mass destruction led the nation into the costly blunder of the Iraq war. We don't need another presidency that finds it all too easy to rely on evasion or stonewalling. I deeply admire Obama, but as a voter I don't like feeling gamed or played.

Another issue that I initially dismissed was the flap over William Ayers, the Chicago-based former member of the violent Weather Underground. Conservative radio host Sean Hannity began the drumbeat about Ayers' association with Obama a year ago -- a theme that most of the mainstream media refused to investigate or even report until this summer. I had never heard of Ayers and couldn't have cared less. I was irritated by Hillary Clinton's aggressive flagging of Ayers in a debate, and I accepted Obama's curt dismissal of the issue.

Hence my concern about Ayers has been very slow in developing. The mainstream media should have fully explored the subject early this year and not allowed it to simmer and boil until it flared up ferociously in the last month of the campaign. Obama may not in recent years have been "pallin' around" with Ayers, in Sara h Palin's memorable line, but his past connections with Ayers do seem to have been more frequent and substantive than he has claimed. Blame for the failure of this issue to take hold must also accrue to the conservative talk shows, which use the scare term "radical" with simplistic sensationalism, blanketing everyone under the sun from scraggly ex-hippies to lipstick-chic Nancy Pelosi.

Pursuing the truth about Ayers, I recently rented the 2002 documentary "The Weather Underground," from Netflix. It was riveting. Although the film seems to waver between ominous exposé and blatant whitewash, the full extent of the group's bombing campaign is dramatically demonstrated. It's not for everyone: The film uses gratuitous cutaways of horrifying carnage, from the Vietnam War to the Manson murders (such as Sharon Tate's smiling corpse, bathed in blood). But the news footage of the Greenwich Village townhouse destroyed in 1970 by bomb-making gone wrong in the basement still has enormous impact. Standing in the chaotic street, actor Dustin Hoffman, who lived next door, seems like Everyman at the apocalypse.

Ayers comes off in the film as a vapid, slightly dopey, chronic juvenile with stunted powers of ethical reasoning. The real revelation is his wife, Bernardine Dohrn (who evidently worked at the same large Chicago law firm as Michelle Obama in the mid-1990s). Of course I had heard of Dohrn -- hers was one of the most notorious names of our baby-boom generation -- and I knew her black-and-white police mug shot. But I had never seen footage of her speaking or interacting with others. Well, it's pretty obvious who wears the pants in that family!

The mystery of Bernardine Dohrn: How could such a personable, attractive, well-educated young woman end up saying such things at a 1969 political rally as this (omitted in the film) about the Manson murders: "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them. They even shove d a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild!" And how could Dohrn have so ruthlessly pursued a decade-long crusade of hatred and terrorism against innocent American citizens and both private and public property?

"The Weather Underground" never searches for answers, but it does show Dohrn, then and now, as a poised, articulate woman of extremely high intelligence and surprising inwardness. The audio extra of her reading the collective's first public communiqué ("Revolutionary violence is the only way") is chilling. But the tumultuous footage of her 1980 surrender to federal authorities is a knockout. Mesmerized, I ran the clip six or seven times of her seated at a lawyer's table while reading her still defiant statement. The sober scene -- with Dohrn hyper-alert in a handsome turtleneck and tweedy jacket -- was tailor-made for Jane Fonda in her "Klute" period, androgynous shag. Only illegalities by federal investigators prevented Dohrn from being put away on ice for a long, long t ime.

Given that Obama had served on a Chicago board with Ayers and approved funding of a leftist educational project sponsored by Ayers, one might think that the unrepentant Ayers-Dohrn couple might be of some interest to the national media. But no, reporters have been too busy playing mini-badminton with every random spitball about Sarah Palin, who has been subjected to an atrocious and at times delusional level of defamation merely because she has the temerity to hold pro-life views.

How dare Palin not embrace abortion as the ultimate civilized ideal of modern culture? How tacky that she speaks in a vivacious regional accent indistinguishable from that of Western Canada! How risible that she graduated from the University of Idaho and not one of those plush, pampered commodes of received opinion whose graduates, in their rush to believe the worst about her, have demonstrated that, when it comes to sifting evidence, they don't know their asses from their elbows.

Liberal Democrats are going to wake up from their sadomasochistic, anti-Palin orgy with a very big hangover. The evil genie released during this sorry episode will not so easily go back into its bottle. A shocking level of irrational emotionalism and at times infantile rage was exposed at the heart of current Democratic ideology -- contradicting Democratic core principles of compassion, tolerance and independent thought. One would have to look back to the Eisenhower 1950s for parallels to this grotesque lock-step parade of bourgeois provincialism, shallow groupthink and blind prejudice.

I like Sarah Palin, and I've heartily enjoyed her arrival on the national stage. As a career classroom teacher, I can see how smart she is -- and quite frankly, I think the people who don't see it are the stupid ones, wrapped in the fuzzy mummy-gauze of their own worn-out partisan dogma. So she doesn't speak the King's English -- big whoop! There is a powerful clarity of consciousness in he r eyes. She uses language with the jumps, breaks and rippling momentum of a be-bop saxophonist. I stand on what I said (as a staunch pro-choice advocate) in my last two columns -- that Palin as a pro-life wife, mother and ambitious professional represents the next big shift in feminism. Pro-life women will save feminism by expanding it, particularly into the more traditional Third World.

As for the Democrats who sneered and howled that Palin was unprepared to be a vice-presidential nominee -- what navel-gazing hypocrisy! What protests were raised in the party or mainstream media when John Edwards, with vastly less political experience than Palin, got John Kerry's nod for veep four years ago? And Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas, for whom I lobbied to be Obama's pick and who was on everyone's short list for months, has a record indistinguishable from Palin's. Whatever knowledge deficit Palin has about the federal bureaucracy or international affairs (outside the normal purvie w of governors) will hopefully be remedied during the next eight years of the Obama presidencies.

The U.S. Senate as a career option? What a claustrophobic, nitpicking comedown for an energetic Alaskan -- nothing but droning committees and incestuous back-scratching. No, Sarah Palin should stick to her governorship and just hit the rubber-chicken circuit, as Richard Nixon did in his long haul back from political limbo following his California gubernatorial defeat in 1962. Step by step, the mainstream media will come around, wipe its own mud out of its eyes, and see Palin for the populist phenomenon that she is.


Comments:

well I agree with her on one thing: prolife women are the future of the "new feminism" and we have alot going for us!
With such avant-garde tools such as JP II's Theology of the Body these younger women will take feminism to new heights - ones that respect women to be mothers, doctors, presidents, whatever they aspire too. That sees a woman's sexuality as a gift and views men as a partner in this life.
The Betty Friedans, Kate Michelmans, Cecila Richards will be left as old hags wondering just what the hell happened.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 13, 2008 5:23 PM


Good to see you branching out from Bible reading, Jill.

Here are a few more Paglia quotes you'll really like:

• The prostitute has come to symbolize for me the ultimate liberated woman, who lives on the edge and whose sexuality belongs to no one.

*Pornography is human imagination in tense theatrical action; its violations are a protest against the violations of our freedom by nature.

• A pagan education would sharpen the mind, steel the will, and seduce the senses. Our philosophy should be both contemplative and pugilistic, admitting aggression (as Christianity does not) as central to our mythology. The beasts of passion must be confronted, and the laws of nature understood. Conflict cannot be avoided, but perhaps it can be confined to a mental theater.

• It is woman's destiny to rule men. Not to serve them, flatter them, or hang on them for guidance. Nor to insult them, demean them, or stereotype them as oppressors.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 13, 2008 5:28 PM


phylo,
Changing the subject?

Posted by: Janet at November 13, 2008 5:34 PM


Not at all. I just like to encourage people to expand their horizons with some well chosen authors/reading:

also Paglia:
“Jesus was a brilliant Jewish stand-up comedian, a phenomenal improviser. His parables are great one-liners.”

Posted by: phylosopher at November 13, 2008 5:37 PM


phylo,
This is about Obama, not the Bible.
. . . . . . . . . . .

Very interesting article. I'm not sure why she felt the need to show a surfer video, which I didn't bother to watch....

Posted by: Janet at November 13, 2008 5:44 PM


and perhaps you'd all like to peruse the rest of this article. Authors who write approvingly af NAMBLA is just so right up your alley. It's on Salon.com where much more of Paglia's articles can be found, too:

As far as Ginsberg's pro-NAMBLA stand goes, this is one of the things I most admire him for. I have repeatedly protested the lynch-mob hysteria that dogs the issue of man-boy love. In "Sexual Personae," I argued that male pedophilia is intricately intertwined with the cardinal moments of Western civilization. Donatello's historically pivotal bronze sculpture, "David" (1430), was my main exhibit -- a languidly flirtatious work that would get the artist arrested for kiddie porn these days. In "Vamps & Tramps," I said that Western moralism and hypocrisy have driven the matter underground and overseas, where impoverished Third World boys now supply the sex trade. --http://www.salonmagazine.com/april97/columnists/paglia970415.html

Posted by: phylosopher at November 13, 2008 5:47 PM


"The mystery of Bernardine Dohrn: How could such a personable, attractive, well-educated young woman end up saying such things at a 1969 political rally as this (omitted in the film) about the Manson murders: "Dig it. First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them. They even shove d a fork into a victim's stomach. Wild!"

Obama's buddies...

Posted by: Jasper at November 13, 2008 7:30 PM


My God. Can we end this ONCE AND FOR ALL and get to moving forward as a country?!?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Posted by: Danielle at November 13, 2008 7:57 PM


The point here is that now all of these liberal journalists are beginning to ask questions as to who this guy is. They are a little late I'm afraid.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 13, 2008 8:19 PM


"My God." and my all....

Posted by: Anonymous at November 13, 2008 8:21 PM


can anyone really determine or ferret out Obama's legal birth certificate?

Posted by: Patricia at November 13, 2008 8:37 PM


Does anyone really know what time it is?

Posted by: Mary at November 13, 2008 9:19 PM


It's "Tool Time", duh.

Posted by: Rae at November 13, 2008 9:28 PM


can anyone really determine or ferret out Obama's legal birth certificate?
Posted by: Patricia at November 13, 2008 8:37 PM

You know, I never saw Reagan's either. hmmm...

Posted by: hal at November 13, 2008 9:29 PM


The girl's name Camilla \c(a)-milla, cam(il)-la\ is pronounced ka-MEEL-ah. It is of Latin origin. Feminine form of the old Roman family name Camillus, of obscure origin. May possibly be traced back to the young girls who assisted at pagan religious ceremonies. According to tradition, recorded by the Roman poet Virgil, Camilla was the name of a warrior maiden, Queen of the Volscians, who fought in the army of Aeneas. The heroine of Alexandre Dumas's famous play "Camille" was actually named Marguerite (see Camellia). Literary: in Virgil's "Aeneid", Camilla was a swift-running warrior maiden. Friend of royalty Camilla Parker-Bowles.

paglia
Italian: from paglia ‘straw’, hence possibly a nickname or a metonymic occupational name for someone who gathered straw or used it to make hats or mattresses, or a topographic name.

How appropriate: a paper tiger, hollow woman, a woman of no substance....

Posted by: HisMan at November 13, 2008 10:10 PM


The libs always show up after the fact with thoughtful reflections. First we had the Charlie Rose interview. Journalists who worked so feverously to get Obama elected now tell the world that Obama is a "creature", that he likes to step back and observe how the crowds are reacting to him and that it was "creepy".

Next we have Paglia sharing her pre-election thoughts well after they could have hurt Obama's chances. In each case it does say something about journalistic integrity and intellectual honesty, both of which seemed to be AWOL among the MSM in the days and weeks runnning up to the election. These same reflections confirm what the mainstreamers decried as right-wing scare tactics and unfair accusations. If the MSM had bothered to do real investigative reporting even as these stories kept on surfacing with new facts they would have uncovered the Obama misrepresentations about Ayers and raised lots of questions about the birth certificate.

What is someone to think about Paglia and the Rose interview? Words have meaning, and those who choose to hold back on things they know or feel are significant lest they adversely affect the candidate of their choice represent the worse of what has become a pathologically corrupt MSM.

Posted by: Jerry at November 13, 2008 10:26 PM


Jerry, I can't take you seriously until I see your birth certificate. Not some modern one from the state you were born in either, the actual one from the day you were born.

Posted by: hal at November 13, 2008 10:39 PM


Where does one go to become "credentialed"? And what makes a neo-Phillis Schlafly a liberal? Try again, Jill. Next you'll tell me that Obama is poised to run a conservative administration. I should hope not!

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 14, 2008 12:34 AM


I have to say, I am not exactly impressed that any of the liberal media elites are recognizing the Obama-mania for what it was. After all, isnt Liberalism in a certain sense the rejection of the norm? Isnt it funny now that the "norm," or at least how the media now so obviously tries to paint it as, IS Liberalism? Its hip to be square afterall! Heres to the disenfranchised Liberals flocking to the Conservative Party. I recommend anyone to read The Diamond Age by Neil Stephenson. Even if you have no care for Sci-Fi, it is fun to see his vision of the future; society rejecting the overwhelmingly popular message of moral relativism by reverting back to the Victorian and Confucian age of strict mores.

Now, I will say this, as much as I directly oppose quite a bit of what this woman stands for, I have to point out how skilled she is with her writing. Its impressive how she formed her ideas so cogently without slipping into invectives.

Oh by the way...anyone else find the assumed motive of Phylosopher downright hilarious?

I can only assume that by pointing out some specificly radical viewpoints of Paglia's so innocently that he is trying to assert that Jill is an uninformed hypocrite for supporting Paglia in this instance. Unless of course, there is another motive I cant think of. It would make the most sense to me though, that based on phylosopher's other inane posts, that Im probably right.

Posted by: Oliver at November 14, 2008 1:00 AM


YLT: "Where does one go to become "credentialed"? And what makes a neo-Phillis Schlafly a liberal? Try again, Jill. Next you'll tell me that Obama is poised to run a conservative administration. I should hope not!"

Hey, you didnt overtly use some circular reasoning this time. You are on your way to becoming more "intelectual" as you profess is so important to you!

Posted by: Oliver at November 14, 2008 1:04 AM


With as many questions as there are about Obama's origins, one image on one website, checked out by one group of people, is not sufficient to satisfy my doubts about the validity of his presidency. His grandmother said he was born in Kenya (and she recently died, didn't she? hmmmmm...) and Obama attended a school that only accepted Indonesian nationals. So I think the idea that he was born in THIS country is highly doubtful. I would much prefer to see every news channel talking about it, every blog writing about it, and the Obama camped being swamped with questions until they cave. There are ENOUGH portions of our Constitution being ignored (ahem, Bill of Rights). I would very much like to keep the part about my president being AMERICAN intact.

Posted by: Laura at November 14, 2008 5:35 AM


Would someone suggest what we should do with a doctor who performs an abortion where it is illegal: loose his/her license, go to jail for murder, be executed unless someone things of other punishments.

Also, what's the best punishment for a woman of, say, age 35 who has an abortion? Jail? Bible? Meet with the Pope?

After all, if it is murder, then shouldn't these people face capital punishment?

Could someone help me find out what happened to Eric Rudolph Roberts and Paul Hill?

Posted by: michaelveves at November 14, 2008 7:53 AM


Jail, yes.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 14, 2008 7:59 AM


Questioning by liberals at this stage is too little, too late.

Posted by: Doyle Chadwick at November 14, 2008 8:11 AM


How interesting. In a new afterword to his memoirs Bill Ayers states the following concerning his relationship with Obama.
[W]e had served together on the board of a foundation, knew one another as neighbors and family friends,held an initial fundraiser in my house, where I'd made a small donation to his earliest political campaign".

Don't tell me Obama lied about his relationship with Ayers!

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 8:14 AM


Danielle:My God. Can we end this ONCE AND FOR ALL and get to moving forward as a country?!?

Yes, it makes perfect sense to trust the Annenberg Center to be forthright about Obama. Not.

Posted by: DeeL at November 14, 2008 8:36 AM


This is really getting tiresome. You conservatives are still grasping at straws.
Face, it. Obama is president elect, and like him or not, he's going to be our president.
And even if he WASN'T actually born in the USA, we've got to amend the constitution and let him be president. But I doubt all these stories. You conservatives will believe any negative story about Obama whether it's true or not.
You have carried gullibility to absurd lengths. I don't believe anything about all the Ayers and Dohrn allegations.
There is not one shred of proof of anything negative about Obama. And furthermore, the fact remains that whetever stupid 60s radical notions he entertains, Ayers never killed a single person.
This is nothing but guilt by association, and to bring up all that nonsense about the Charles Manson murders is just plain apthetic. Give up already.
You're beating the proverbial dead horse.

Posted by: Robert Berger at November 14, 2008 9:05 AM


Psssst, Laura. Obama, like all, humans had two grandmothers. The one who died was Madelyne Dunham, his maternal grandmother. The one who made the Kenyan comment was his paternal step-grandmother, who is not even biologically related to Barack.

Berg claims to have overheard her speaking to someone in the US about it - funny Sarah Obama only speaks Luo - and Mr. Berg doesn't.

But keep trying to make 5 out of 2+2, Lauren.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 9:31 AM


Really surprised at you, Oliver, most right wing extremists don't get sarcasmm or irony; must be all that practice time spent reading your bibles literally and refusing to see beyond the assertion of 6000-10,000 y o earth.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 9:34 AM


Robert Berger,

You are being funny right? We've got to amend the Constitution to accomodate him?

RB, you can stick your head in the sand all you want. What you don't like is us exposing your messiah for what he really is.

Those were Bill Ayers own words. Don't talk to us about gullibility. We never believed Obama's proclamations of naivete and ignorance.

Ayers never killed a single person. RB, mafia dons do this same thing! Present themselves as model citizens with clean hands, by having underlings who do their dirty work.
Ayers was a master bombmaker. His underlings blew themselves to hell putting together nail bombs using Ayers' bomb recipe, that they intended to set off at Fort Dix.
According to Andy McCarthy of National Review
"Ayers attested that the bomb would have done serious damage, tearing through windows and walls and yes, people too."

Obama's buddy Ayers is a real prince among men.
His wife Bernadine Dohrn, with whom Obama was certainly well acquainted is quite a charmer too. She was once pegged "the most dangerous woman in America" by J.Edgar Hoover.

RB, don't preach to us about gullibility.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 9:38 AM


Gee Deel, you don't trust Republicans either? (Walter Annenberg, deceased Reagan friend, funded the Center which is based at the U Penn). Are you saying that Annenberg set up the Center so that it would be there to coverup for Obama's eventual presidential run, just like his grandparents planted that Hawaiian birth announcement 47 years ago, knowing that he would someday be President? Think they can get us some good lottery numbers, too?

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 9:41 AM


Obama's buddy Ayers is a real prince among men.
His wife Bernadine Dohrn, with whom Obama was certainly well acquainted is quite a charmer too. She was once pegged "the most dangerous woman in America" by J.Edgar Hoover.

RB, don't preach to us about gullibility.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 9:38 AM

And your "proof" that Obama and Dohrn were well acquainted?

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 9:44 AM


Buyers remorse is growing in the Obamanation. We are starting to see the euphoria subsiding rapidly.

Posted by: xppc at November 14, 2008 9:53 AM


Phylo,

Please read my 8:14am post. Ayers himself admits they were "family friends". He didn't say "I" was a friend of Obama's, he said "we" were family friends, which would indicate to me the families, spouses and children, all knew each other. Dohrn was Ayers' wife. Obama held his political event in their living room. I know that's a real brain teaser Phylo.

BTW, what do you think of Obama's friend Ayers dedicating a book to Sirhan Sirhan, the killer of Democrat icon Robert Kennedy? You'd almost think the Kennedy family, who supported Obama, might have an issue with this.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 9:55 AM


I'd say exactly what every other rational person has said.
1) Ayers acts of violence and Dohrn's are things of the distant past. THey are both respected professors today and the persons they are today is what shoudl be looked at. If not, all that talk about rehabilitation is jsut hot air.

2) Knowing someone, or even working with them on Project "A" doesn't mean I know of, approve or share their interest in Project "B." Especially when "A" is a big formalized operation - like the Annenberg challenge. (I sit on a similar board - we meet once per year - I know little about any of my fellow board members beyond the institutions they represent and their area of expertise. I've known them for years, had dinner with a few, talk has remained primarily on the subject at hand and perhaps soemthing innocuous like fashion or sports.

3) Claiming friendship is not necessarily reciprocal ask any celebrity.

4)Talking to those with opposing views doesn't equal "contamination" with their ideas, heck, writing on this blog would lang ago have made me an anti-choicer if that were the case.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 10:27 AM


Robert Berger,

You are being funny right? We've got to amend the Constitution to accomodate him?

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 9:38 AM
****************************************

I don't think he's kidding, Mary. I was expecting someone to say what he said, and there it is!

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 10:28 AM


You want to hold person A, responsible for the dedication in a book written many years ago by person B, go ahead. THe Kennedys have a lot more sense.

In the meanwhile, would you please get over here and clean out the litter box, Mary? You once wrote the word cat on this blog and elsewhere you wrote the word box, causing the cat to connect the two. SO I'm holding you repsonsbile for the litterbox - see how THAT illogic works?

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 10:33 AM


If not, all that talk about rehabilitation is jsut hot air.
****************************************

When were they rehabilitated?

Mr. Unrepentant "Guilty as hell, free as a bird" Ayers said after 9/11 that he wished they (the Weather Underground) had done more bombing and destruction when he was involved. Do you consider that being rehabilitated or having a change of mind?

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 10:33 AM


What I think is, they got smarter. They decided that the way to gradually push out democracy and replace it with their own socialistic ideals was through political, as opposed to terrorist, means.

Posted by: Kel at November 14, 2008 10:36 AM


Dohrn was Ayers' wife. Obama held his political event in their living room. I know that's a real brain teaser Phylo.

No, it was an event at which Alice Palmer passed the torch to Obama - as such, it would have been organized by Palmer. ANd all the caveats in my previous post apply. Around Chicago, the Ayers are local profs and local activists concerned with school improvement.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 10:40 AM


Hal: I'm not running for president. Does the Constitution mean what it says, and if so are we not allowed to see irrefutable proof that BHO is a citizen? It is a fair question, is it not?

Posted by: Jerry at November 14, 2008 10:40 AM


Phylosopher 10:27am

The point is Phylo he remains unrepentent. Ayers was freed on legal technicalities, not because he was found innocent or served any time. Respected professors? Mafia don John Gotti was viewed as a "respected" member or his community and a media star. I suppose that made his crimes irrelevant and made him respectable.
By the way, you didn't say what you think of Ayers dedicating a book to Sirhan Sirhan.

Phylo, Ayers said they were "family friends". I take that literally. I don't describe myself and my family as "family friends" with the people who live on the corner that I wave to on occasion if I see them outside. Its straight from Ayers' mouth. They were "friends" and well acquainted with each other and their spouses and families.

Claiming friendship is not necessarily reciprocal. Then why doesn't Obama vehemently deny it? Why did Ayers wait until Obama was safely elected before referring to themselves as "family friends"? Why would Obama have his political fundraiser in the Ayers' living room? Do you hold events of any kind in the living rooms of people you barely know?

Live with it Phylo, your guy lied when he tried to brush off Ayers, as well as Rev.Wright, for politically expedient reasons.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 10:47 AM


Kel 10:28am

Certainly a man who can lower the sea levels and heal the planet can change the Constitution with a snap of his fingers.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 10:52 AM


Phylo, 10:33am

Just so I understand, you would have no problem with someone who had dedicated a book to the murderer of a family member of yours, even if it left 11 children fatherless and your family devastated. If this person now claimed he was a "family friend" of Obama, you would have no issue with this either. Fine.

I mentioned that rascal of a cat of mine on this blog? Her name is "Duchess" by the way and she lives up to her name.
Clean the litterbox. Thanks for the reminder. Not my favorite job but one that must be done!

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 10:59 AM


I don't consider Obama to be the "Messiah". I don't worship him, but I do think he's a decent man, and no demon, ogre, or monster. No, he's not perfect, nor is he going to instantly transform this country into a paradise.
He strikes me as a thoughtful, level-headed, reasonable, and fair-minded individual.
Yes, he and his administration will make mistakes, but so have all the presidents.
But you conservatives make it sound as though he's going to turn America into a totalitarian communist dictatorship. This is a laughable notion. And if anything, conservative politicians are a far greater threat to freedom and prosperity in this country.
This country cannot afford the kind of government that the well-meaning but awful George W Bush has foisted on this country. I just hope that the Obama administration can undo the awful things he's done in the name of "freedom".

Posted by: Robert Berger at November 14, 2008 11:08 AM


Kel 10:36am

Exactly. I remember years ago when the Russian communists said they would take us without firing a shot.

The Ayers' present an air of respectablity to fool people such as Phylo and RB and are apparently very successful.
Why should they resort to terrorism? They can tell you what a hassle prematurely exploding bombs can be.

As I pointed out, John Gotti presented himself as and was viewed as a respectable business and family man. What better way for him to conduct his illicit activities?

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 11:11 AM


RB,

Well he did talk of bankrupting the coal industry and establishing a "civilian security force" as well armed and funded as our military.
His own SS perhaps? I thought we had police forces and the national guard.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 11:20 AM


Hal: I'm not running for president. Does the Constitution mean what it says, and if so are we not allowed to see irrefutable proof that BHO is a citizen? It is a fair question, is it not?
Posted by: Jerry at November 14, 2008 10:40 AM

Not. We have never asked any other president to prove anything. but Obama must supply MORE than his Birth Certificate?

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 11:28 AM


Move forward, you guys. Please, please - move forward.

I'm so done with these arguments. Here we are - 10 days after the election and the conservative side is still desperately trying to hold on to ANYthing, no matter how refuted, disclaimed, conspiracy-laced or whispered, to somehow give a faint hope that maybe...just maybe...they don't have to accept Obama as President. Everyone's against you. Everything's a conspiracy. Everything's a lie. Nothing will prove you wrong, because you don't want it to.

I've grown so disheartened with the discourse that's taken place here as of late. I know we disagree on abortion, but I didn't consider that to mean we couldn't be rational, objective adults and not sore losers. But it's beginning to wear thin. Politics really bring out the ugliest sides of people.

I'm sorry that you are disappointed. I truly am, because I know what that feels like (see 2000-present). But I'm moving forward. You know how you say that even in the darkest hour, nothing can take your faith and you lean on God for support and know you will prevail? Well that's how I feel. I feel SO GOOD about our future (notice I didn't say 'my' I said 'our') and I'm SO happy that Obama was elected that all this bitterness and contempt and hand wringing I've read and heard over the past 10 days can't take my joy. Whatever, y'all.

I hope you can join me in understanding we all have to figure out a way to work together, start to feel optimistic and recognize that 52% of the country can't work without the other 48%. There's bound to be a common thread we want to work on together - how about poverty? ending human trafficking? cleaning our environment? bringing our troops home safely? Can't we can agree there?

Of those issues we disagree with - well then fight with legislation! By all means, organize and work for your issues. I'm not asking you to lay down and disappear, I'm asking you to start rebuilding your base and outlining your platform as conservatives by understanding that Barack Obama is the President Elect. Who will be sworn in office. MOVE FORWARD FROM THERE. Not in this swirling inertia.

I'm looking forward to 1/20 in DC and will watch him take the oath of office and get started on the very uphill battle to get the country back in shape. I hope you can get back a sense of goodwill and a future-focused point of view. If you can't, oh well. I'm too busy feeling good and figuring out how to help my country to keep posting back in forth about BS. Stay here and swap conspiracy theories for the next four years - I won't refute you anymore. I'll be available when you want to talk about something else.

Posted by: Danielle at November 14, 2008 11:36 AM


Hal,

The only proof he need show is a birth certificate. John McCain showed his.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 11:37 AM


Danielle,

We accept him as president. Its that some unpleasant facts are coming out that people choose to ignore. I don't see any conspiracy, I just listen to the words of Bill Ayers who is refuting what Obama said about their relationship.

Fight with legislation? Fine. Problem is you have the Democrats in Minnesota attempting to steal the senate race from the Republican winner.
This would give Obama a more compliant senate for his agenda.

Did you read my above post about his desire to destroy the coal industry?

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 11:42 AM


Phyl: "Really surprised at you, Oliver, most right wing extremists don't get sarcasmm or irony; must be all that practice time spent reading your bibles literally and refusing to see beyond the assertion of 6000-10,000 y o earth."

Im sure you know most right wing extremists and how they react to sarcasm.

I hope you are not basing your sarcasm musings on internet chats. Everyone who is anyone knows that sarcasm is difficult to convey without inflection.

The effective use of sarcasm also requires you to have a stable and obvious belief system.

Example: "I just love Obama!"

If I say that, we all know that I am speaking sarcasticly, but if you say this, we know you believe it.

So now, your original statements were referencing Paglia. You put it out there that you were impressed at Jill's respect for her article and then talked about how great Paglia's other beliefs are. Considering that you are at times, a little dense so to speak, you could have been just honestly saying so. I actually wasnt sure, but considering that you are also a relatively caustic and extreme, I figured you were trying to point out Jill's supposed conflict with supporting part of Paglia's beliefs.

However, you threw the word "irony" in there. Irony means the exact opposite of what you would expect. It would in fact be irony if Jill supported Paglia as a person, no matter what she said, and Paglia held those beliefs. However, in this case, it is in fact the opposite of Irony, in that it would be expected that Jill would support this particular article considering that it essentially attacks both Obama and the leftist media while at the same time lauding Palin.

By asserting that it is Irony, which is now overtly the case, you are making the assumption that if Jill supports anything said by Paglia, that she also is supporting everything said by Paglia in at least some sense. The truth is that you can support a statement without supporting a person, which means that you can support her article and repudiate her other works/statements.

In other words, you were not cute nor were you clever with your previous posts, just asinine yet again.

Posted by: Oliver at November 14, 2008 11:45 AM


Mary, I already answered your question, sarcastically.

You are beyond 6 degrees with the Obama-Ayers guilt by association(more like 6000). There is no literal "family friend" definition, it's a subjective term, so it doesn't refute Obama's claim. Look, we know exactly when and how these two know each other. What you want to quibble about now is how each guy defines/characterizes that relationship. It's a tom A to/tom AH to quibble that changes NOTHING.

And Mary, re the BC:
He did, and the state of Hawaii backed him up. So, please go clean that litterbox - have a good one.

ANd, the civilian security force is for efforts like the rebuilding process in Iraq. And while we do have the National Guard, their availability to respond has been hampered by overseas miltary tours. Many more people who would be willing to join the guard, aren't doing so because while they may be quite willing to do hurricane clean up, or even miltary crowd control here - they have no desire to take up arms in other countries.

You are paranoid and delusional if you think it's a private security force.

Posted by: phylosopher at November 14, 2008 12:00 PM


Phylo,

It was Ayers, not me, who said they were family friends. You can analyze, pscyhoanalyze, and reanalyze this all you want and convince yourself of whatever you want. Why would you care if they were "family friends"? Isn't Ayers a "respected professor"?

Let me hand back to you the litterbox poopscooper. I never questioned the circumstances of Obama's birth, I was responding to Hal's post where he asked why Obama would have to supply MORE than a birth certificate. I pointed out that like John McCain, he would only have to present a birth certificate.

Go check Youtube Phylo. You can hear it straight from Obama. Have you ever heard any other presidential candidate suggest such a thing? He clearly states this CSF is to be as well armed and funded as the military. What will this group consist of and who will they answer to? Can't people just join the police dept.? Why, if they're involved in rebuilding do they need to be as armed as the military?

Listen to what your guy is saying Phylo. Everything starts as just talk.

I have to wonder if this is before or after he bankrupts the coal industry. Go to Youtube and hear it straight from the horse's mouth on this one.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 12:22 PM


Hal,

The only proof he need show is a birth certificate. John McCain showed his.
Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 11:37 AM

I missed that. Do you have a link?

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 12:26 PM


Hal,

Please tell me what more Obama would have to present than a birth certificate? The irony here is I never involved myself in this dispute.
Until there is proof positive Obama is not a citizen I will withhold comment.
Apparently John McCain was born into a military family in the Panama Canal zone. He presented his birth certificate but to who I don't know or who asked for it or why. I only read he presented it.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 12:31 PM


Hal,

I may have seen or read it on Philip Berg's video. Again, I withold any judgment until I see proof positive.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 12:35 PM


I have seen Obama's birth certificate. It's on the internets.

For some reason, the crazies want to see the "original" one they gave his mother 47 years ago. I don't have mine for the actual birth, do you? I have a certified copy of mine which I got from the State many years later. That's what Obama has shown the world. Some are not satisfied.

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 12:39 PM


Hal,

I have a copy. One need only call the city you were born in to get it. In fact I have two copies. If anyone wants to see it I'm happy to show it and put any questions to rest and I have had to use it for travel a few times.

Apparently with Obama the copy of the original is in question. It does not look like the official birth certificates of Hawaii in that era.

Again, I'm just telling you what I saw. I'm not getting into any debates.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 1:49 PM


Mary, if I go to the county where I was born and ask for a certified birth certificate, they will print me a new one and certify it. That's what Obama's looks like to me. Nothing wrong with that, and just as official as anything else.

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 1:51 PM


Danielle,
I don't think the birth certificate issue is a major one for most of us here (Those individuals can correct me if I'm wrong). It was only a part of the story and you brought it up before anyone else did...


Posted by: Janet at November 14, 2008 2:01 PM


Hal,

Mine is an exact photocopy so it looks like the BCs issued in the city in that era, including the registrar's signature of that time. The only thing different is the city seal is put on it, its signed by the present registrar of vital statistics, there's written verification that it is a copy issued by the city, and the name of the mayor who was in office when the copy was made in 2000.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 2:10 PM


Interesting Mary, if the guys behind the "birth certificate issue" have personal experiences similar to yours, they might just be ignorant of the places that do it diffrently. I have a nice modern looking form even though I'm the same age as President Elect Obama.

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 2:24 PM


Hal,
So your notarized birth certificate doesn't resemble your original exactly? That sounds very strange. Are you sure it is considered valid? My copy I have is an exact photocopy.

Posted by: Janet at November 14, 2008 2:46 PM


I had to get a replacement birth certificate when I lost my original one. The replacement one is very different and looks like the birth certificates passed out today.

I later found my original one, misfiled. The two look absolutely nothing alike, yet are equally valid. I live in Illinois.

Posted by: Angela at November 14, 2008 3:39 PM


That's what I'm saying Janet. It's very modern. It is "certified" It's actually a "certificate of live birth." Not a photocopy of an original at all. And, yes, I'm sure it's valid. I used it to get my passport. It looks a lot like Obama's.

So, we may have cleared up this whole misunderstanding. Those of you who get copies of old fashion birth certificates didn't know that some jurisdictions give modern looking ones.

Posted by: Hal at November 14, 2008 5:12 PM


Hal, 5:12PM

Interesting and a good point. One would think that photocopies of the original would be made, as was the case with me. Apparently not.
I'm glad I never jumped into that debate!

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 6:12 PM


"Problem is you have the Democrats in Minnesota attempting to steal the senate race from the Republican winner."

Mary, that's BS. As a Minnesota resident, I know what's going on in my state, and you're just parroting Sean Hannity innuendo. The race is ridiculously close thanks to Mr. Barkely's vote spoilage.

Posted by: Rae at November 14, 2008 6:49 PM


Rae,

That isn't just according to Hannity. There are votes for Franken showing up against all statistical probablility. One official showed up with a box of uncounted ballots in her car! Come on.
Yes the race is close.
Also, the Democrats are desperate to get this seat since they want a 60 seat veto proof majority in the Senate so that Obama can push throught his agenda unopposed.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 7:04 PM


@Mary: It was 32 fricking ballots. I'm willing to wager a bet that those 32 ballots are going to be irrelevant in the long run.

If I had it my way- both Coleman and Franken should just give up and let Barkely serve, because to me- it's obvious that nobody really wanted Franken or Coleman but didn't have the cohones to vote for Barkley because of the stigma that "3rd party candidates never win!"

Well duh! If you're too wimpy to vote for the third party individual of COURSE they're not going to win...

::headdesk::

And Mary- even Gov. Pawlenty doesn't see any wrong-doing going on, he dismissed the ballots-in-the-car incident pretty quick. And he's pretty darn conservative.

Posted by: Rae at November 14, 2008 7:11 PM


Rae,

I certainly respect your opinion and I'm sure Barkley rec'd more a good share of votes. He was doing fairly well in the polls.
I remember when a third party candidate, Jesse Ventura, won the governorship of Minnesota so obviously Minnesotans have no issue with third party candidates. I remember thinking it was a hoot and poor Jesse didn't have a clue what he's supposed to do as governor.
Certainly Coleman won by a razor thin margin.
There's the issue of votes being found for Franken while none are being found for Coleman which I find suspicious. Also these ballots in the car, even if "nothing", certainly looks, shall we say, peculiar. Personally Rae I think the whole thing stinks and I think there's going to be an ugly court fight. I understand the attorney general or some official involved with the recount has been involved with ACORN.
In an interview with Megan Kelly on Fox News Gov. Pawlenty did indeed express some serious concern about about the ballots in the car as well as other irregularities and questionable activities by the Franken camp.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 7:34 PM


@Mary: Jesse Ventura was a fluke, he really was. Ever since the disaster that was the Ventura Governorship, Minnesota has not been too fond of members of the Independence Party- which is a shame because in 2006 during that election, the Independence individual, Peter Hutchinson was fantastic and could totally pwn Pawlenty and Hatch in a debate, but Pawlenty and Hatch ducked out of EVERY debate Hutchinson and various media outlets in the Twin Cities arranged, except one which they did NOT invite Mr. Hutchinson to.

In all honesty, I don't know how Franken managed to do as well as he did. He's such dumb@$$...seriously. I'm fairly liberal, and I personally thought the should go jump off the Washington Ave. Bridge...

I have no doubt there will be an ugly court fight because both Franken and Coleman have egos the size of Jupiter. And based on the fact that that interview was on Faux News, my guess is that Pawlenty was pandering- so I'm taking that statement to be worth less than a grain of salt.

Posted by: Rae at November 14, 2008 7:57 PM


Rae,

I think we'll just have to disagree. I respect the opinion of Gov. Pawlenty whoever he talks to and he raised good points in the interview.
This whole thing to me is very fishy and the Democrats are desperate for that seat.
I think Al Franken is a puke. Didn't he write some pornographic article about a 12 year old?
I know nothing about Norm Coleman.
Jesse Ventura apparently didn't even know what he should do as governor, as he never expected to be elected. If nothing else, you folks in Minnesota did give the country a good laugh with that one.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 8:10 PM


@Mary: Yeeeeeeeah...Ventura was special. I think he could have been great had he not been such a horse's @$$ with the media. He fought with the media more than he actually governed, which is a shame, because he could have been the one to bring the Independence Party truly to the national spotlight.

Franken isn't even funny...he sucked on SNL. He sucks as a politician too.

Norm Coleman is a former Democrat who switched to the Republicans several years go. He was the mayor of St. Paul for a long time, ran for governor the year Ventura won (and was defeated, obviously) so then he focused on the senate. He's a Bushling. He doesn't think for himself very well... Minnesotans really don't like him because of his Bush pandering votes...but apparently they liked him enough to vote for him again- but my guess is that's because Franken was such a terrible candidate.

Posted by: Rae at November 14, 2008 8:14 PM


But yes, we can agree to disagree.

This election just cemented my belief that I should grow a pair, get over my fear of public speaking and run for El Presidente in 15 years. :-p

Posted by: Rae at November 14, 2008 8:22 PM


I believe that liberalism is born of dispair. Liberals have no faith in their own abilities, and are unfamiliar with the masses of humans who have generally good intentions. Oddly, they instead place faith in governmental institutions, which are filled with people generally considered one step less trustworthy than used car salesmen. This is an odd symptom of delusional thinking, expecting that the most corrupt group of humans can save liberals from themselves and their neighbors.

I believe that Ms. Paglia has much of the dispair found in usual liberals, but she is much more honest and direct. For the honesty, she deserves credit.

Posted by: kb at November 14, 2008 8:32 PM


Because John McCain was born in Panama, not the USA not a USA his qualifications to be POTUS were challenged, legally.

It was determined in accordance with exisitng law at the time McCain's birth that he was a natural born US citizen.

McCain was challenged, he proved his qualification.

The o'bama (pbuh) has been challenged. He has not produced the one thing that would put the matter to rest. Not hard. I can't see why the 'one' does not instruct the State of Hawaii to release the birth certificate with his tiny little human fetus foot print. (Maybe he has six toes or something.)

HAl, from your recent postings, I detect a slight bit of impatience with your unwashed co-posters.

The official in Hawaii said that someone who shared a common ancestry with a legitimate interest could request a certified copy of the o'bama (pbuh) birth certificate. The brother of o'bama, who is living in abject poverty in Kenya, has legal standing to request the document. He could auction it off to the highest bidder and set himself up for life. If he is still alive.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at November 14, 2008 8:54 PM


I drove to Mexico a couple of weeks ago with a friend. When we attempted to re-enter the USA a border patrol agent asked my friend if he had proof of citizenship. He producee his US Passport. When the border patrol agent asked me, I gave him my Texas Drivers License.

He was not satisfied and he was not happy. He wanted to see a copy of my birth certiticate or my US Passport.

I was not happy either. There are over 12 million people who crossed the same border and no one asked them for their birth certificate. I have good reason to believe that some of those same people stole my vote and they stole your vote as well.

We have a man who has been elected POTUS, and it just could be many of the same undocumented aliens I just mentioned voted for him.

But, should they not, the o'bama (pbuh)is a citizen of the world. And it looks like the o'bama (pbuh) may be an undocumented alien as well.

The o'bama (pbuh) specifically targetd spanish speaking people and spanish speaking neighborhoods to register and recruit voters. Their policy concerning eligibility to vote as in, are you a US Citizen, was, 'I won't ask and you don't tell.'

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at November 14, 2008 9:16 PM


kbhvac,

Passports are required now for all travel to Mexico and Canada, no?

Just a side note, my polling place did not ask for anyform of ID. I was surprised considering all the controversy this year. I'm curious if that was the case everywhere in the U.S.

Posted by: Janet at November 14, 2008 10:10 PM


Passports aren't required for travel to Canada. I went this past July, and I didn't even need to show my driver's license-- I used my college I.D. at the border. I went in through the Fort Drumm area in NY (I think the town is actually called Watertown?)

I also had to get a copy of my birth certificate when I joined the military. I was only 17 when I had to get it, and they still didn't give me an exact copy of my original... It was just a certified copy, it looked different. (I live in Illinois)

I'm sitting at my armory right now because this is my guard weekend, (if we get canceled for snow tomorrow after I have to sleep on a cot, I will be so upset!) and a girl I'm sitting with said when she joined in Indiana she got an exact photocopy of her birth certificate. It sounds like it just depends on where you're from... maybe county, maybe state.

Posted by: Josephine at November 14, 2008 11:04 PM


Josephine,
Thank you for serving our country!! I didn't know you were in the service!! Awesome!!

Posted by: Carla at November 15, 2008 6:06 AM


Josephine,

I join Carla in thanking you for your service to our country.
Interesting point about the birth certificates. Its likely what you say, that it varies from one place to the next.
My birth certificate is definitely a copy of the original, written in hieroglyphics(sp?). I'm sure they had to send some archeologist into a dank underground room full of bats and cobwebs to find it.

Posted by: Mary at November 15, 2008 8:48 AM


Rae,

That isn't just according to Hannity. There are votes for Franken showing up against all statistical probablility. One official showed up with a box of uncounted ballots in her car! Come on.
Yes the race is close.
Also, the Democrats are desperate to get this seat since they want a 60 seat veto proof majority in the Senate so that Obama can push throught his agenda unopposed.

Posted by: Mary at November 14, 2008 7:04 PM

Mary - Your story about ballots in a car has been refuted. Try again.

http://www.minnpost.com/davidbrauer/2008/11/12/4565/minneapolis_election_director_speaks_ballots_in_my_car_story_false

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 15, 2008 12:35 PM


YLT,

It was never MY story.

Posted by: Mary at November 15, 2008 1:34 PM



Governor Pawlenty stated that while he has no evidence at this time to prove there is fraud and will make no accusations until he can he did say "....this process has resulted in some strange irregularities-statistical irregularities-and some suggestion that something is amiss".

Posted by: Mary at November 15, 2008 2:31 PM


Ya know, I figured phy's mispelled name was intentional until he called me Lauren. Very nice.

Posted by: Laura at November 16, 2008 6:21 AM


re: Mary at November 15, 2008 1:34 PM

Right it was a lie you forgot to investigate before passing it along.

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