Exposing Obama's support of taxpayer funded abortions

The Christian Defense Coalition has launched a campaign featuring this ad exposing one of Barack Obama's many far left abortion positions:

abortion president.jpg

Quoting a CBS News story on this today...

Under the present version of the Hyde amendment, which was introduced in 1976 to limit federal funding of abortion, Medicaid now covers abortions only in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment, according to the National Abortion Federation.

As a state senator in Illinois, Obama voted against a bill similar to the Hyde amendment that prohibited the use of state funding to pay for abortions.

That last sentence was inaccurate. Had to be purposeful. All reporter Brian Montopoli had to do was place a period after "Hyde Amendment," but no, he went on to incorrectly describe the bill Obama opposed as being a blanket mandate against taxpayer funded abortions in IL, which it was not - to make it appear as if Obama voted reasonably? No, the bill allowed taxpayer funding of abortions for sexual assault and life of the mother. The bill language is here.

Nevertheless, a January 2008 FRC commissioned poll indicated 56% would be "less likely" to vote for a presidential candidate supporting taxpayer funded abortions compared to 31% "more likely."

This is a good anti-Obama talking point.


Comments:

PeachPit, unfounded smears deleted.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at July 9, 2008 10:07 AM


Government-funded abortion for indigent women saves more money than it costs, by preventing us from having to pay for their labor-and-delivery care.

The poster should read: "I want you to SAVE MONEY AND LOWER YOUR TAXES by paying for abortions!"

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:09 AM


SOMG,

There is no such thing as "government" funded. Its taxpayer funded and abortion advocates will use "taxpayer" funded to remind us all of how much these poor women and their children supposedly cost.

Do you have any proof as to the amount of money we have supposedly saved and how our taxes have been reduced thanks to taxpayer funded abortions?

By the way why doesn't PP insist on providing free abortions and contraception instead of spending millions on megaclinics?

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 10:15 AM


SoMG, believe it or not some of us would rather *gasp* pay more to help keep a child alive than pay less and have it killed. Crazy!

Of course, anything I've read regarding attacking women who are raising their children on medicaid has been written by a "pro-choicer" who thinks they are being "drains on society" and should have been aborted.

In fact, most "pro-choicers" aren't so much for "choice" as for "aborting the unfit."

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 10:18 AM


Government-funded abortion for indigent women saves more money than it costs, by preventing us from having to pay for their labor-and-delivery care.

The poster should read: "I want you to SAVE MONEY AND LOWER YOUR TAXES by paying for abortions!"

You're joking, right?

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 10:22 AM


Does anyone else think Obama looks like Lorne Greene from Bonanza?

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 10:26 AM


Lauren, you wrote: "some of us would rather *gasp* pay more to help keep a child alive than pay less and have it killed. "

In that case, you should say so, instead of pretending that taxpayer-funded abortions cost taxpayers money. Jill and you should identify yourselves as pro-higher-taxes.

You wrote: "In fact, most "pro-choicers" aren't so much for "choice" as for "aborting the unfit.""

HAHAHAHAHAHAAH ROTFL. What do you think you are doing for the RTL movement by repeating such an obvious lie? People who might otherwise seriously think about RTL arguments read this sort of thing and write you off.

The other day I asked a Catholic student (who attends Mass every Sunday) whether she was against abortion and she replied, "No, I'm Catholic but not crazy."

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:32 AM


"The other day I asked a Catholic student (who attends Mass every Sunday) whether she was against abortion and she replied, "No, I'm Catholic but not crazy."

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:32 AM
-----------------------------------

Then SoMg, that "Catholic" student is unaware of what the Church stand is on abortion.

Why don't you ask a priest or a deacon..or even a Bishop? Would you Like a link to what the POPE says about abortion?

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 10:39 AM


Mary, you wrote: "... why doesn't PP insist on providing free abortions and contraception instead of spending millions on megaclinics?"

Do you work for free? If not, why not?

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:40 AM


RSD, no, she is quite aware of the Church's stand on abortion but she disagrees with it.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:43 AM


SOMG,

Please stop your hysterical laughing and read this. In a letter to then President-elect Bill Clinton, Roe v Wade attorney Ron Weddington urged the use of abortion "to eliminate the barely educated, unhealthy, and poor segment of our society".

I also well recall when the Hyde Amendment went into effect and the accompanying wailing and gnashing of teeth over the cost to the "taxpayer" in more social services,etc. as well as an increase in social problems, if the "government" didn't pay for abortions.

As you can see, the compassion and concern for the poor was just overwhelming.

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 10:50 AM


Wow, are you serious SoMG. Do you honestly think that the pro-choice side doesn't look down at those who they think made the "wrong" choice?

I mean, seriously, are you living on the same planet as I am?

I've already shown you how abortion proponants see parents who choose to bring "defective" children into the world as immoral breeders.

As a group of "pro-choicers" what a pregnant highschool student should do and you'll get a resounding "Get an abortion!"

Tell them that she plans to keep the baby and you'll get a mouning symphony of fingerwaggers whining about how horrible she is being to the child and the world.

Ask these same "pro-choicers" about their opinions of the quiverfull movement and expect some comments about vaginas not being clown cars. Then, obscenity aside, they'll probablly launch into a tirade about how horrible these parents are being and how they should be sterilized.

Yeah...real pro-choice.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 10:52 AM


SOMG 10:43am

Because I don't have millions at my disposal from the taxpayers and multi-million dollar donors to spend on building megastructures.

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 10:53 AM


"RSD, no, she is quite aware of the Church's stand on abortion but she disagrees with it.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:43 AM
-------------------------------------

Then she has some soul-searching to do IF she wants to continue to be Catholic...her daily attendance of Mass should help.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 10:54 AM


Now, that said, there are some people who are really "pro-choice", but they do not represent the majority of lay person in the pro-choice movement nor the majority of the people in charge.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 10:55 AM


"I want you to SAVE MONEY AND LOWER YOUR TAXES by paying for abortions!"

Are you kidding? By lowering the tax base by millions you cause everyone to pay higher taxes on EVERYTHING!!

Posted by: KC at July 9, 2008 10:58 AM


KC..these pro-aborts think we're over-populated and are saving up the resources so the current population can survive. They, obviously, want to kill the unborn so as not to add to the consumption of "precious" commodities.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 11:01 AM


"Government-funded abortion for indigent women saves more money than it costs, by preventing us from having to pay for their labor-and-delivery care.

The poster should read: "I want you to SAVE MONEY AND LOWER YOUR TAXES by paying for abortions!"

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:09 AM"

I'd pay triple the taxes if it meant saving innocent babies - black, white, brown, yellow or red, from being slaughtered.

Do you think all we conservatives think about is money?

Or don't you understand what it means to live a principled life based on sound godly values?

And that girl that claims to be a Catholic but supports abortion? You see SoMG, God has 20/20 vision that can see directly into the heart of a person. He's knows who are His own, despite what they might think of themselves.

SoMG: You are very cynical. Typically people that are cynical are miserable. To top it off you think killing children is OK. SoMG, I plead with you to repent of who you are, for you are headed for disaster and you are totally blinded to the reality of it. You break my heart. I really wish I could meet you, take you to lunch and have a heart ot heart to with you.

Posted by: HisMan at July 9, 2008 11:07 AM


Hisman...I commend you on your effort to have a "heart to heart" talk with SoMG regarding her issues....unfortunately, it won't work, for the plain reason that ....she doesn't have one.


Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 11:16 AM


Mary, Ron Weddington is not "most" pro-choicers.

Lauren, you wrote: "Do you honestly think that the pro-choice side doesn't look down at those who they think made the "wrong" choice?"

I would say some do and others don't. I don't.

The PC movement, at least in the 1970s, was hand-in-hand with the international anti-forced-sterilization movement. (I don't know what they do about it these days.)

The Freedom of Choice Act will for the first time guarantee on the Federal level the right to keep a pregnancy and have a baby. In fact this is the FIRST right mentioned in the text of FOCA.

Do you remember the stuff I quoted from PP's web site? In case you don't, I'll remind you. PP's site encourages women considering abortion to think about the following considerations:

Whether or not someone is pressuring me to choose abortion.

Whether or not I have strong religious beliefs against abortion.

Whether or not I look down on women who have abortions.

Whether or not I care about what other people will think.

Whether or not I can handle the abortion experience.

Also: "Be sure to examine your moral concerns before choosing abortion."

All this comes from http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/pregnant-now-what-4253.htm

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 11:17 AM


Tell me SoMG...you might know...do these questions get asked when a "client" comes into PP?

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 11:19 AM


The Freedom of Choice Act will for the first time guarantee on the Federal level the right to keep a pregnancy and have a baby

So there are people out there STOPPING people from getting pregnant and having babies?

REALLY?!!

Good to know.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 9, 2008 11:20 AM


Hi HisMan. I'm happy AND cynical.

Have a great day

Posted by: Hal at July 9, 2008 11:20 AM


SOMG, 11:17am

I'm well aware of that be he was certainly a very prominent one.

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 11:22 AM


lauren,

Do you honestly think that the pro-choice side doesn't look down at those who they think made the "wrong" choice?

Oh, you mean like all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over Thomas Beatie and his new baby? Oh wait, that was anti-choicers, not pro-choicers.

Posted by: reality at July 9, 2008 11:29 AM


RSD, no, she is quite aware of the Church's stand on abortion but she disagrees with it.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:43 AM

Maybe you could advise her that she needs to go to confession
if she wants to continue to receive the Holy Eucharist, since you appear to be concerned about her. It's very kind of you.


Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 11:30 AM


RSD:

You know what I think of you my friend and we both feel so passionately about eliminating this most heinous stain of legal abortion on our country.

Let me remind you however, as Liz did so apropriately for me a few days ago, we mustn't resort to insults.

Stop, think, and get your point across without the insults. You'll feel better and People like SoMG will be exposed for who they really are.

Hal:

You're happy because God has blessed you with a beautiful family despite your non-belief in Him and you are actually experiencing His grace and mercy despite that. The cynicsm is evidence of a lack of joy or quiet assurance that one can only attain through faith in Christ. In a way Hal, you are making withdrawals from God's blessing account and spending it all on the now, without any care for what the future will bring. The point is, it is an inexorable fact that the future will come, and without Christ, it is hopeless. Lead your daughters to Christ Hal.

Posted by: HisMan at July 9, 2008 11:34 AM


HisMan...I apologize, you are correct...I will limit my comments to objective ones.

Difficult, yes...considering who we are talking about...but I will try.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 11:41 AM


I have exercised my right to get pregnant and have babies! 4 times! Without FOCA!

Posted by: Carla at July 9, 2008 11:42 AM


Carla, that's great, but you should know that currently a state could pass a law mandating the abortion of, for instance, genetically diseased pregnancies, and it's not at all clear that such a law would be unconstitutional (especially if Roe/Wade were overturned) or contrary to any Federal law.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 11:57 AM


OT, but in previous posts there had been a lot of discussion about people thinking NGO's were just "throwing condoms" at people in Africa to stop the HIV epidemic.

I just got this email from a friend who was in my undergrad program with me who is now in med school:

I am here in South Africa working for a joint project between UPenn
and a local university called "Men Together Making a Difference."
After only two weeks, I am truly inspired by the project. My
experiences working with female sex workers in Ethiopia left me
feeling that men need to be more of the focus of targeted
interventions if HIV prevention campaigns are to be successful. "Men
Together Making a Difference" does exactly that. The project recruits
young men from the townships and runs a series of training sessions on
the responsibilities of men in the community, living healthier lives,
protecting their communities from the further spread of HIV, and
promoting brotherhood. One activity that epitomizes the interactive
and engaging aspect of the sessions is a role play in which one man
has to play a girlfriend who doesn't want to use protection and the
other is her boyfriend who must convince her to use condoms. The men
thoroughly enjoy acting this scene out, often including humor that has
the whole room rolling with laughter. But more than being fun, the
activity forces the men to think through issues instead of simply
saying USE CONDOMS, and prepares them for situations that they may
encounter in the past. So far the feedback has been overwhelmingly
positive, and the men are excited to bring what they have learned back
to their communities.
One of the more entertaining sessions includes an exercise video that
teaches the men some basic aerobics. These men, for whom maintaining
a hard exterior is part of everyday survival, suddenly find themselves
doing lunges to a house remix of Whitney Houston ballads. Watching
this is quite a spectacle – even after multiple sessions, I still have
to look down to hide the chuckle I fail to suppress.

Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 11:59 AM


Do you remember the stuff I quoted from PP's web site? In case you don't, I'll remind you. PP's site encourages women considering abortion to think about the following considerations:

Whether or not someone is pressuring me to choose abortion.

...Whether or not I have strong religious beliefs against abortion.

...Whether or not I look down on women who have abortions.

...Whether or not I care about what other people will think.

...Whether or not I can handle the abortion experience.

...Also: "Be sure to examine your moral concerns before choosing abortion."

All this comes from http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/pregnant-now-what-4253.htm

*Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 11:17 AM

I wonder if they post this at the abortion "clinics", say on a wall in the lobby, or more importantly, on the paperwork a woman must sign before she has the abortion. I believe that would be appropriate, just to make sure she has no reservations about her decision.

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 12:05 PM


Carla, that's great, but you should know that currently a state could pass a law mandating the abortion of, for instance, genetically diseased pregnancies, and it's not at all clear that such a law would be unconstitutional (especially if Roe/Wade were overturned) or contrary to any Federal law.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 11:57 AM

No way!

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 12:06 PM


Hilarious!!!

Right to get pregnant and have a baby.

What will they think of next?

The right of objects to obey the law of gravity?

Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 12:08 PM


I have exercised my right to get pregnant and have babies! 4 times! Without FOCA!

Posted by: Carla at July 9, 2008 11:42 AM

Hilarious!!!

Right to get pregnant and have a baby.

What will they think of next?

The right of objects to obey the law of gravity?

Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 12:08 PM

Right! The rights of apples to fall from trees? Guarantee the right to sneeze? (Sounds like a Dr. Suess book!)


Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 12:12 PM


Hey Amanda,

Do the UPenn people tell the South Africans that condoms are only 50% effective in preventing HIV transmission?

In the interest of education, that point should be front and center.

Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 12:12 PM


Amanda...I seem to have read somewhere that the HIV spread slowdown in Africa was due to the ABC program...ABC meaning Abstinence, Be responsible and Condom... as the last method.

Abstinence and Responsibility education comes first before Condom use...not the other way around.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 12:22 PM


My experiences working with female sex workers in Ethiopia left me feeling that men need to be more of the focus of targeted
interventions if HIV prevention campaigns are to be successful.


Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 11:59 AM


I couldn't agree more. Unfaithful men have always been the problem, yet society always focuses on women, expecting women to fix the problems men create.

Also, do your experiences working with sex workers make you wish for programs to help women get out of their situation and into another line of work, or does it just motivate you to help them reduce the HIV transmission rate as they serve their clients?

I understand they may live in a culture that doesn't value women, but hey, how about challenging the culture to respect women?

I am sure you are well meaning but this program seems to appeal to men's self interest in avoiding HIV infection. Any benefit to the women is secondary, especially without a focus on men avoiding prostitutes altogether.

Bottom line guys, prostitutes are dirty, protect yourself when you use them.


Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 12:25 PM


Hey Amanda:

What you do is very noble, however, the only thing that changes hearts about sin is Jesus Christ. The secualr approach to battling AIDS will do some good but have limited affects.

Now before you go off on me, I know Uganda is quite a ways from where you are in Africa, however, maybe you will run into someone who knows about the 180 degree turnaround there when the people and government became 80% Christianized. It's an amazing story.

Let me know if you do.

Posted by: HisMan at July 9, 2008 12:35 PM


SoMG, here's what Planned Parenthood told me when I called them for prenatal care. (I was a college student in a unfamiliar city and didn't have a regular OB. I was pro-choice at the time and thought that PP was a benevolent service that helped women..ha!)

Me- Hi, I'm calling because I just took a home pregnancy test that was positive and I'm looking for prenatal care.

PP- We don't do that here, we only do abortions.

Me-Ok, well I don't want an abortion, do you have anyone you can refer me to?

PP-Well, are you sure you've considered all your options?

Me-Yes, and I don't want an abortion. I'm just trying to find prenatal care. Is there nothing you can do to help me?

PP-No, we only do abortions and pregnancy tests. You can come in for a pregnancy test. Good bye.

Not exactly embracing of all choices.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 12:35 PM


So there are people out there STOPPING people from getting pregnant and having babies?

REALLY?!!

Good to know.

Um, I think that's the topic for the blog here, Elizabeth!

RSD, my point above was that by killing off at least replacements (large part of tax base) for current humans the cost of living and the artificial creation of necessary services that those would have taken care of causes everyone to pay not just more in taxes on everything but costs more for everything in general.

Posted by: KC at July 9, 2008 12:36 PM


Carla and Janet 12:12PM

LOL!!

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 12:42 PM


"I wonder if they post this at the abortion "clinics", say on a wall in the lobby, or more importantly, on the paperwork a woman must sign before she has the abortion. I believe that would be appropriate, just to make sure she has no reservations about her decision."

The questions are asked during the initial patient interview, and are also printed on the intake forms.


"No way! "

Yes way. The US government legally sterilized hundreds of thousands of Puerto Rican and Native American women in the 70s. Informed consent laws would prevent something like that from happening again in the same way - but there is nothing that says doing that is ILLEGAL, and when dealing with low literacy or non-English populations, a consent form doesn't mean a whole lot, but it makes it perfectly legal.

Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 12:42 PM


Not me writing from Africa - that was my friend who emailed me. I'm still here in exotic Boston.
=P

Hippie - I believe the 50% rate refers only to anal sex. Transmission is far less likely with vaginal sex, and even less likely to go from woman to man as opposed to man to woman.

Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 12:51 PM


SoMG, you said: “you should know that currently a state could pass a law mandating the abortion of, for instance, genetically diseased pregnancies, and it's not at all clear that such a law would be unconstitutional (especially if Roe/Wade were overturned) or contrary to any Federal law. ”

Wow. I can’t believe that you would even suggest this. Did you ever hear of the bill of rights? Ever heard of the 4th amendment, illegal search and seizure; and the eight amendment, no cruel and unusual punishments.

I think these would trump your argument.

Posted by: Charles at July 9, 2008 1:17 PM


"Wow. I can’t believe that you would even suggest this. Did you ever hear of the bill of rights? Ever heard of the 4th amendment, illegal search and seizure; and the eight amendment, no cruel and unusual punishments."


Charles, all of those laws you listed existed in the 70s and 80s when the government authorized the sterilization of just under half a million (estimated) American women.

Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 1:21 PM


SoMG, here's what Planned Parenthood told me when I called them for prenatal care. (I was a college student in a unfamiliar city and didn't have a regular OB. I was pro-choice at the time and thought that PP was a benevolent service that helped women..ha!)

Me- Hi, I'm calling because I just took a home pregnancy test that was positive and I'm looking for prenatal care.

PP- We don't do that here, we only do abortions.

Me-Ok, well I don't want an abortion, do you have anyone you can refer me to?

PP-Well, are you sure you've considered all your options?

Me-Yes, and I don't want an abortion. I'm just trying to find prenatal care. Is there nothing you can do to help me?

PP-No, we only do abortions and pregnancy tests. You can come in for a pregnancy test. Good bye.

Not exactly embracing of all choices.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 12:35 PM
..........................................

Unless the clinic advertised prenatal care or OB referral services, it wasn't too bright of you to call looking for it. Surely while cruising through the phone book you saw all those ads for pregnancy assistance through crisis pregnancy centers. Odd that you would call a clinic not offering what you were looking for when you had already made your choice.

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 1:28 PM


Lauren, what was the location of this PP you called? I'd like to look up what services they list. As far as I know, every single PP offers pregnancy tests, contraception, and STD and Pap smears. Not all of them offer abortions, and not all of them offer prenatal Ob/GYN or pediatric services. A lot of states have free or very discounted prenatal/pediatric programs provided for low income women, which makes it unneccesary for PP to staff for prenatal care.

Posted by: Amanda at July 9, 2008 1:34 PM


Getting back to the original subject of this post, the so-called Christian Defense Coalition's poster implies that Obama wants to increase taxpayer funding for abortions.

From Obama's website:
Supports a Woman’s Right to Choose:
Barack Obama understands that abortion is a divisive issue, and respects those who disagree with him. However, he has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women’s rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.
Preventing Unwanted Pregnancy:
Barack Obama is an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand access to contraception, health information and preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. Introduced in January 2007, the Prevention First Act will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. The Act will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.

Can someone point out to me where it says in there that Obama wants to increase taxpayer funding for abortions? Not wanting to overturn Roe vs. Wade is not the same thing. Nor is increasing funding for sex ed including abstinence, which should DECREASE unwanted pregnancies, and with them, abortions.

Furthermore, the Hyde amendment specifically does not and cannot prevent states from using state funds to pay for abortions. Not supporting the implementation of a state-level version of Hyde, as Jill details is NOT the same thing as wanting to overturn the federal version.

The way I see it, this whole thread is based on hyperbole and fabrication.

Posted by: Ray at July 9, 2008 1:40 PM


Oops, sorry for all the bold above. Only the paragraph headers were supposed to be bolded.

Posted by: Ray at July 9, 2008 1:42 PM


Lauren, how long ago was the phone contact with PP you described?

Charles, you wrote: "Ever heard of the 4th amendment, illegal search and seizure; and the eight amendment, no cruel and unusual punishments."

Neither the Fourth nor the Eighth Amendments says or implies anything whatsoever about a right to keep a pregnancy or to have a baby. In fact there is no mention of pregnancy, childbirth, or parenthood anywhere in the Constitution that I know of. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If there is a constitutional right to keep a pregnancy and bear a child, it's in a penumbra. You know, like Roe/Wade.

I bet Scalia, Long Dong Silver (oops I mean Clarance Thomas), Roberts, and Alito would laugh at any attempt to argue that the constitution protects the right to keep a pregnancy and have a baby.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 2:18 PM


Amanda, the PP was in Winston-Salem or Greensboro NC.

Sally, not odd at all considering Planned Parenthood claims to offer "comprehensive" sexual health services. Call me crazy, but I thought basic prenatal care was included under the "comprehensive" umbrella. In fact, some Planned Parenthoods *do* offer prenatal care, but it's a crap shoot. I wasn't in a "crisis" pregnancy, I just didn't have a normal OB or even a PCP, and was just looking to find normal prenatal care. I was a typical student who used the student services clinic for everyday medical issues.

I was raised by a very feminist, pro-choice mother who had taken me to PP before for a basic gyno exam. Being that I had no real qualms about their other services, (I personally would never have had an abortion, but I bought into the idea of "choice") it made sense for me to call a place I *thought* was specifically there to help people in need of various reproductive services.

The phone call lasted all of 5 minutes probably. Once the receptionist or whomever realized I wasn't interested in abortion the conversation ended. It just really vexed me that an organization that claimed to be so "comprehensive" couldn't help me when I was facing one of the most common of reproductive issues. After becoming pro-life, I find it very irritating that PP often attacks CPC's for not being "comprehensive" when they know that their organization is hardly the women's oasis that it pretends to be.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 2:41 PM


And I don't think my scenario--a state passing a law making it illegal to carry, say, a cystic-fibrosis pregnancy to term--is all that far-fetched. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to take care of someone with CF?

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 2:49 PM


Lauren, how long ago was your phone conversation with PP?

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 2:51 PM


"Unless the clinic advertised prenatal care or OB referral services, it wasn't too bright of you to call looking for it. Surely while cruising through the phone book you saw all those ads for pregnancy assistance through crisis pregnancy centers. Odd that you would call a clinic not offering what you were looking for when you had already made your choice."

But Sally, I though PP offered "Womens heath care" services?

Posted by: Jasper at July 9, 2008 3:09 PM


SoMG,

do you have kids?

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 3:10 PM


SOMG,

To be precise, the "right" to abortion was found in "emanations" arising from the "penumbra" cast by the 14th Amendment which is one way I have seen it addressed. Or it could be the "penumbra" cast by "emanations". According to Justice Douglas the guarantees of the Bill of Rights have certain "penumbras" cast by "enamations" of these guarantees that give them life and substance. It makes about the same amount of sense either way.
If you're confused by the terms "penumbra" and "emanations", don't feel bad. After the Griswold decision that used penumbras and emanations to find the right to privacy a few lawyers had to pull out their dictionaries.

Our great justices made rulings based on "penumbras" an astronomical term describing the partial shadow of the elipse or the edge of a sunspot and "emanations", a scientific term for gas made from radioactive decay, it can also mean an emission, odor, smoke, or steam.

It seems our justices had to look pretty hard and use a lot of imagination, as well as consult the heavens and read gas or smoke to find a right to privacy and Roe v Wade.


Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 3:16 PM


RSD,

someone already asked SOMG if he/she had kids...and I don't think he/she gave a clear answer.

SOMG, that law you're suggesting is clearly eugenics. And it smells like what the Nazis did.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at July 9, 2008 3:25 PM


Liz,

...then I would speculate that the answer is "NO".

Nobody who has had the chance to hear a baby's laugh or even a baby smile would be that cold.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 3:40 PM


Jasper, 3:09PM

So did I. I also thought abortion only accounted for a very small percentage of PP's services.

Posted by: Mary at July 9, 2008 3:42 PM


Hey Amanda,

Have you thought about my question about trying to help women get out of prostitution?

I understand you concern for the men who need to protect themselves from potentially HIV infected sex workers but how about some concern for the women?

I understand that their culture is different but women everywhere need respect, and opportunities and freedom.


Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 3:48 PM



And I don't think my scenario--a state passing a law making it illegal to carry, say, a cystic-fibrosis pregnancy to term--is all that far-fetched. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to take care of someone with CF?

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 2:49 PM

How about including a CF screening so people would know if they were carriers before they get married.

I know some Orthodox Rabbis suggest screening for Tay Sachs before seeking a spouse.

Prevention is better than cure

Posted by: hippie at July 9, 2008 3:52 PM


LizfromNebraska, I certainly wasn't saying I would APPROVE of a law against birthing a CF patient--just that I could imagine a state passing such a law and that it would not be unconstitutional. For the record I would oppose such a law.

Would it be "eugenics"? I'm not sure--it would not purge society of the CF mutation unless it also required abortion of fetuses with ONE copy of the mutation. Such fetuses are be carriers but not patients. Only homozygotes for the CF mutation are patients.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 4:07 PM


"RSD, no, she is quite aware of the Church's stand on abortion but she disagrees with it."

She should find another church then SoMG, maybe the UU church fits her beliefs...

Posted by: Jasper at July 9, 2008 4:07 PM


And I don't think my scenario--a state passing a law making it illegal to carry, say, a cystic-fibrosis pregnancy to term--is all that far-fetched. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to take care of someone with CF?

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 2:49 PM

That's silly and Margaret Sanger would agree with you.

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 4:08 PM


LizfromNebraska, I certainly wasn't saying I would APPROVE of a law against birthing a CF patient-

So a baby is indeed considered a patient unless you have been requested to perform an abortion on it? Then it loses its patient status?

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 4:15 PM


SoMG,

Do you realize that the Constitution does not guarantee a person food? Nowhere does it say a person has a right to eat! Therefore, there could be a law one day preventing obese people from eating, and it would be Constitutional.

Michael

Posted by: Michael at July 9, 2008 4:21 PM


Janet, the unwelcome unborn may be patients, but they are not MY patients.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 4:28 PM


Nobody who has had the chance to hear a baby's laugh or even a baby smile would be that cold.

RSD,

I would have to respectfully disagree. How about all the parents that murder their children..I'm pretty sure they've seen them smile and heard them laugh plenty. It's called "evil." Some people have it in them, some people don't.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at July 9, 2008 4:33 PM


SoMG-

This was in 2004.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 4:38 PM


"Unless the clinic advertised prenatal care or OB referral services, it wasn't too bright of you to call looking for it. Surely while cruising through the phone book you saw all those ads for pregnancy assistance through crisis pregnancy centers. Odd that you would call a clinic not offering what you were looking for when you had already made your choice."

But Sally, I though PP offered "Womens heath care" services?

Posted by: Jasper at July 9, 2008 3:09 PM
.........................................

The types of women's health care offered by a given PP are listed in their adverisement as well as on their web sights. Would you call a car detailer looking for a mechanic? They both deal with car maintanence don't they? Perhaps you would. Complaining about the detail shop not finding a mechanic for you would be really quite silly.

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 4:40 PM


Hmmm...wasn't providing Women's Healthcare services the reason PP built the Aurora abortuary there?

Even though we have the VNA, Rush copley hospital, Dreyer Medical clinic and other medical clinics less than 5 miles from every direction from PP.

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 4:51 PM


Sally, are you serious?

Here's what PP's "teenwire" site says about PP's prenatal care policy.

"Some Planned Parenthood health centers offer prenatal care, including ultrasounds, and some do not. But all Planned Parenthood health centers can give you a referral for prenatal care. To make an appointment or inquire about an ultrasound, call 1-800-230-PLAN to find a Planned Parenthood health center near you.

Planned Parenthood health centers offer high-quality sexual and reproductive health care, including family planning, gynecological care, sexually transmitted infection testing and treatment, pregnancy testing, and abortion services.

Hope this information helps!"

Hmmm,seems to me that it isn't that far fetched to think that they would have been able to help me. Especially since they say that *all* their clinics refer to an outside doctor if their particular clinic doesn't have prenatal care.

Unfortunately, it seems that some of these clinics are not following through with this promise. Because of this, it's absurd to think that PP gives birth equal treatment as abortion. If they really cared about all women they would ensure that their facilities could help pregnant women, but instead they let that aspect of women's health fall by the wayside.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 5:02 PM


PP lies on their ads?? OMG!!!

Posted by: RSD at July 9, 2008 5:07 PM


Some goofball receptionist at one clinic screws up a question about outside referrals for prenatal care and you want to turn it into "PP lies on their ads"

Posted by: Hal at July 9, 2008 5:34 PM


Hal Some goofball receptionist at one clinic screws up a question about outside referrals for prenatal care and you want to turn it into "PP lies on their ads"

If it happened to one of Jill's commenters who called PP, don't you think the odds are that it's happening elsewhere as well?

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 5:48 PM


If it happened to one of Jill's commenters who called PP, don't you think the odds are that it's happening elsewhere as well?
Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 5:48 PM

I'm sure it might have happened here or there once or twice. There are lots of clinics. It doesn't make their promise to provide and/or refer for prenatal care a "lie."

Posted by: Hal at July 9, 2008 5:56 PM


Glad to see you back, Amanda.

Posted by: carder at July 9, 2008 6:07 PM


Sally, not odd at all considering Planned Parenthood claims to offer "comprehensive" sexual health services. Call me crazy, but I thought basic prenatal care was included under the "comprehensive" umbrella. In fact, some Planned Parenthoods *do* offer prenatal care, but it's a crap shoot. I wasn't in a "crisis" pregnancy, I just didn't have a normal OB or even a PCP, and was just looking to find normal prenatal care. I was a typical student who used the student services clinic for everyday medical issues.

.................................

Are you sayiong that you don't know the difference between sexual health care and gestational health care? I'm quite certain that PP would have been happy to supply you with condoms to prevent STDs before, during and after your pregnancy if that was your need.
I really don't understand your beef with the PP you called not offering prenatal care. Perhaps you could conduct fund raisers to facilitate this PP offering such.
I guess that is too

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 6:54 PM


"The types of women's health care offered by a given PP are listed in their adverisement as well as on their web sights. Would you call a car detailer looking for a mechanic? They both deal with car maintanence don't they? Perhaps you would. Complaining about the detail shop not finding a mechanic for you would be really quite silly."

but a car detailer advertises as a car detailer, a tranmission specialist advertises as a tranmission specialist, body work as body work, brakes as brakes, etc.

whats the matter with the PP's that do abortions? why don't they have a sign that says "Abortion Clinic" or "we do abortions" ? umm? why not? are they ashamed?

Posted by: Jasper at July 9, 2008 7:31 PM


Sally, my "beef" with PP is that they *claim* to offer comprehensive women's healthcare. They do this while constantly attacking pro-lifers for NOT being comprehensive because we don't offer abortions.

It's irritating that instead of just coming out and saying that their real agenda is simply to prevent/end pregnancy, they pretend that they care for *all* women's healthcare.

It is absurd to believe that "sexual" healthcare and "gestational" healthcare are seperate units. Most women see an obgyn for both.

I would be shocked if my Ob claimed to offer "comprehensive" womens services, and then couldn't give me a pap smear.

Planned Parenthood likes to pretend that their about more than just abortion, but their numbers just don't back this up.

In 2006 PP performed 1,097,397 pregnancy tests.

In 2006 PP performed 289,750 abortions.

During that same year they saw 11,058 women for prenatal care. (Interestingly, this number has been dropping since 2002. when it was around 15,000 even though the number of women seen is going up.)

Even worse, they gave a *whopping* 2,410 adoption referrals in 2006.

Call me crazy, but I find it hard to believe that all options are equally promoted by PP.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 7:45 PM


oops, here's the link to their report:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 7:48 PM


The types of women's health care offered by a given PP are listed in their adverisement as well as on their web sights. Would you call a car detailer looking for a mechanic? They both deal with car maintanence don't they? Perhaps you would. Complaining about the detail shop not finding a mechanic for you would be really quite silly."

but a car detailer advertises as a car detailer, a tranmission specialist advertises as a tranmission specialist, body work as body work, brakes as brakes, etc.

whats the matter with the PP's that do abortions? why don't they have a sign that says "Abortion Clinic" or "we do abortions" ? umm? why not? are they ashamed?

Posted by: Jasper at July 9, 2008 7:31 PM
............................

If all a clinic offered were abortions than labeling themselves as an abortion clinic would be accurate. Where do you get the idea that clinics offering abortions keep such knowledge secret Jasper? How would a woman wishing to have an abortion find such a clinic if the clinic didn't advertise the fact that they do abortions?

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 9:12 PM


Sally, my "beef" with PP is that they *claim* to offer comprehensive women's healthcare.
.......................................................

According to your post on this, they offer comprehensive sexual health care. Did you misquote?
.......................................................

They do this while constantly attacking pro-lifers for NOT being comprehensive because we don't offer abortions.

.........................................................

You are a PL. What do you offer by way of health care of any degree to anyone of any gender? The secret number to the welfare office?

...............................................................

It's irritating that instead of just coming out and saying that their real agenda is simply to prevent/end pregnancy, they pretend that they care for *all* women's healthcare.
..............................................................

Are you asserting some women are denied the care that they do provide or are you 'irritated' that they don't provide any type of health care a women could possibly be in need of? You are very unclear.

............................................................

It is absurd to believe that "sexual" healthcare and "gestational" healthcare are seperate units. Most women see an obgyn for both.
..........................................................

You are being absurd and obtuse. A doctor can be a gyn, an ob or both. They make more money if they are both.
.........................................................


I would be shocked if my Ob claimed to offer "comprehensive" womens services, and then couldn't give me a pap smear.

..........................................................

A GP can give you a pap. A PA can give you a pap. Would you be shocked to find out your Gyn, GP or PA wasn't qualified to monitor gestational development? Apparently so.

............................................................

Planned Parenthood likes to pretend that their about more than just abortion, but their numbers just don't back this up.

............................................................

Blah blah blah. 3 % of PP services are represented by abortions.

.............................................................

In 2006 PP performed 1,097,397 pregnancy tests.

In 2006 PP performed 289,750 abortions.

During that same year they saw 11,058 women for prenatal care. (Interestingly, this number has been dropping since 2002. when it was around 15,000 even though the number of women seen is going up.)

Even worse, they gave a *whopping* 2,410 adoption referrals in 2006.

Call me crazy, but I find it hard to believe that all options are equally promoted by PP.

Posted by: lauren at July 9, 2008 7:45 PM

............................................................

I don't think that you are crazy lauren. I think that you have an agenda to demonize PP at the cost of honesty and integrity.

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 9:42 PM


I think you are awesome Lauren!

Sally,
You still make me laugh out loud!! :)

Posted by: Carla at July 9, 2008 10:03 PM


Does anyone else think Obama looks like Lorne Greene from Bonanza?

Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 10:26 AM

Yes. I couldn't place the face till you got it though... lol

Posted by: truthseeker at July 9, 2008 10:31 PM


RSD, no, she is quite aware of the Church's stand on abortion but she disagrees with it.

Posted by: SoMG at July 9, 2008 10:43 AM

In a nutshell then SoMG. She has excommunicated herself. You should let her know so that she understands she can't rightfully call herself Catholic till she repents.

Posted by: truthseeker at July 9, 2008 10:34 PM


I think you are awesome Lauren!

Sally,
You still make me laugh out loud!! :)

Posted by: Carla at July 9, 2008 10:03 PM
..........................................

Smooch Carla! I certainly get a chuckle from your posts from time to time! ; )

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 11:10 PM


In a nutshell then SoMG. She has excommunicated herself. You should let her know so that she understands she can't rightfully call herself Catholic till she repents.

Posted by: truthseeker at July 9, 2008 10:34 PM
........................................................

The all and powerful Oz has spoken! Strike the gong! Rattle the chains! Turn on the wind machine!

Posted by: Sally at July 9, 2008 11:17 PM


"Truthseeker", of course you know more than I do about it but my understanding was you have to assist or enable an abortion--something like driving someone to get one, at least--before latae sententiae excommunication occurs. I don't think just disagreeing with RTLism is enough. I'm quite sure thinking most RTLs in the USA are crazy isn't enough.

But I agree with you, I'm always glad to see someone "stop calling [themselves] Catholic", unless it's a conversion to something worse like Islam or Right-Wing Orthodox Judaism (the guys who believe God wants them to own a certain piece of land.)

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 12:22 AM


SoMG: 12:22 AM:"Truthseeker", of course you know more than I do about it but my understanding was you have to assist or enable an abortion--something like driving someone to get one, at least--before latae sententiae excommunication occurs.....

Either you do a lot of research or are an ex-Catholic. Are you an ex-C?

...I'm always glad to see someone "stop calling [themselves] Catholic"

I'm always happy to see an agnost (is that what you call yourself?) get religion!

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 12:33 AM


I never understand: if God is as important as believers all say He is, isn't it arrogant to imagine He cares about us or doesn't have anything better to do than listen to our prayers? Don't most important people tend to resent intrusions on their attention? That has been my experience, anyway.

That's the great thing about the Verdi Requiem: the prayers sound desperate like someone about to be burnt to death and there is no comfort in it. If you're buying your first recording of it, go here and prepare to be impressed:

http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Requiem-Ormandy-Rossini-Schippers/dp/B0000028WT/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215667984&sr=8-3

This performance is remarkable for superior conducting by Ormandy, and for baritone George London who sounds like a pneumatic drill which is what the part calls for, and for tenor Richard Tucker, an Orthodox Jew from Brooklyn who sang as a Cantor in his Synagogue and was also a Verdi superstar at the Met and has an intersection named for him near Lincoln Center and sang perfect Italian and Italianate Latin but talked with a lower-class Brooklynite accent like Ed Norton on the HONEYMOONERS. (Now that I come to think of it George London was also Jewish--an emigre from Russia to Canada. His real name was Burnstein or some varient of that. OK so you're going to hear some Jewish vocal muscle.) The women are good too.

This set also includes a performance of Rossini's STABAT MATER, which is recognizably Rossini with BARBER OF SEVILLE-like tunefullness but also serious, with one of the best "Amen" finales I've ever heard. Better performances of this piece are available but it's a nice way to fill the second disc--the Verdi takes just a little more than one CD to record.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 12:54 AM


Janet, no, I'm not an ex-C but I have done a little research. (For a while I was unaware that excommunication is not necessarily permanent--that someone can de-excommunicate you.) And yes I am a radical agnost. "Radical" because I believe that unknowability is an intrinsic "root" characteristic of everything supernatural. ("Unknowability" includes not knowing whether or not anything supernatural exists.)

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 1:02 AM


Maybe you figured this out from the previous post but just in case: The Verdi Requiem is meant to be played at high volume. I'm quite sure Verdi anticipated the development of the electronic amplifier--the REQ begins with a breathy whisper, forcing the listener to turn it way up, and then explodes and is mostly very forceful for the duration.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 1:19 AM


And the following is just a guess but I'd bet (if I were a betting man) that today in the USA more Catholics are acknowledging their agnosticism than agnosts are converting to Catholicism. My feeling is this seems to have become increasingly true as the Vatican has become more assertive since JP2 died.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 1:28 AM


The text of the STABAT MATER is serious but also deliberately overdramatic (probably why Rossini chose it), with explicit prayers for increases in personal suffering and even for death in order to empathise more deeply with JC and Mary. Was this the reason for self-flagellation?

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 2:04 AM


"my understanding was you have to assist or enable an abortion--something like driving someone to get one, at least--before latae sententiae excommunication occurs."

Actually, yes, this is correct SoMG. In fact, not only do you have to participate in some way to incur the excommunication latae sententia, but you also have to BE AWARE of the fact that participating in an abortion incurs an automatic excommunication.

"I never understand: if God is as important as believers all say He is, isn't it arrogant to imagine He cares about us or doesn't have anything better to do than listen to our prayers? Don't most important people tend to resent intrusions on their attention?"

Right. You've touched on something very important; the fact that we are nothing compared to God. Comparing us to say, an amoeba is absolutely nothing comparing God with us. The gap is infinitely greater. But God has CHOSEN to love us, and adopt us as his own sons and daughters. We (every single one of us) are his children, and hence he loves us more than any of us love our own children. More than anyone has ever loved.

But you're right, it is somewhat paradoxical. Why would someone who is so great care about someone so crappy? The best analogy we have to begin to try and make sense of it is our own children. Now, I don't know if you have any children or have friends who have children SoMG, but the same sort of question can also be asked of them. Aren't I much better than my daughter? Here I am studying some of the most complex mathematics known to man, yet I stoop as "low" as to get poop all over my hands and wipe a 7 month olds butt.

I will to love my daughter, just as God wills to love us. Does he need us? No. Did he have to create us? No. If we don't love him back, will it make him sad or disappoint him? No. But his free gift of spending eternity with him is on the table. Free, but not cheap.

So in summary, he chooses to love us more than anything we could possibly imagine. Hence, he greatly cares about us and our prayers. I hope that begins to give you an idea of how something like that is possible.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 6:36 AM


Also SoMG, you have some fantastic taste in music (or it seems... I don't know music TOO well) I love Verdi's Requiem. I actually performed it in college (and Mozart's requiem as a boy).

"That's the great thing about the Verdi Requiem: the prayers sound desperate like someone about to be burnt to death and there is no comfort in it."

Oh yes! I don't know if you had this movement in mind, but the Dies Irae is supposed to sound like souls falling into hell. It's very well done. Sometimes I'm amazed at how these guys could make their music reflect the lyrics.

Also SoMG, these pieces like the Verdi Requiem and Stabat Mater, as you must know, are deeply deeply religious. Do you ever get like a (for lack of a better word) mystical sense of wonder or awe or astonishment while listening to these pieces? Like they are about something REAL? Do you know what I mean? Some of the most beautiful music in the history of the world has been written about God and for God. Now I'm not saying that shows that there is a God, but I think it shows that there is more "there."

I'm not making too much sense right now, probably cause the baby is screaming...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 6:46 AM


Bobby and Somg,

After SoMGs recommendation and your explanation, you've both got me waaaay curious. Going right now to listen...

Posted by: mk at July 10, 2008 7:45 AM


WOW! I only heard those little snippets, but I went from horror (Dies Irae) to awe (Agnus Dei), to joy (Sanctus) to some serious sadness (Stabat Mater Dolorosa) in a matter of 3 minutes...

Once again tho, I wish I had an English Translation.

How did you guys get started listening to this stuff? Did your folks play it while you were in the womb? Was it your "Night-night" music? College?

Bobby, do you play this for Gianna?

I can't say I'm hooked as it it most definitely NOT background music and seems to take a lot of personal immersion to really listen to it...(Can't say I've ever "actively" had to listen to music before) but it does grow on you. I suppose it gets easier (like anything) the more you listen to it.

SoMG,

How does one listen to music like this, music filled with such passion, such emotion, such intensity, and then go to work and just shut everything off? Is this a way to let those emotions (that you suppress at work) out?

And you never answered me. Have you ever truly loved (verb, not noun) anyone, or been loved?

Posted by: mk at July 10, 2008 7:58 AM


MK,

Are you familiar with a Requiem mass? It's a funeral mass, a mass for the dead. They used to be popular back in the day. Here is an English http://chorus.ucdavis.edu/verdi/text.htm

I started listening to this kind of stuff after I started singing it. When I was in 5th grade, I joined a Choir of Men and Boys. We were like the boy's choirs you see in the Cathedrals over in England. We performed Evensong and other big choral works like Mozart's Requiem, Handel's Messiah, Schubert's Mass in G, Hayden's Creation Mass, Peregolise's Magnificat, etc etc. I even got to be in Carmen by Bizet and perform part of Carmina Burana by Orff. That exposed me to a lot of the great works of all time.

"Bobby, do you play this for Gianna?"

No, but I probably should...

"I can't say I'm hooked as it it most definitely NOT background music and seems to take a lot of personal immersion to really listen to it...(Can't say I've ever "actively" had to listen to music before) but it does grow on you. I suppose it gets easier (like anything) the more you listen to it."

That's the thing; it's hard to "get into" classical music. I have an appreciation for it, and even I don't usually enjoy a new piece of classical music the first time I hear it. I don't know why that is. But yeah, enjoy the Requiem! I love one of the last movements, the Libera Me. Very polyphonic. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 8:29 AM


I'm curious too, soMG.

How did you get to be such an opera buff?

My sister certainly did not grow up listening to opera, but after high school chose to study it since she wanted solid, classical singing technique.

What's your take on Pavarotti?

I'm partial to Placido Domingo myself.

Posted by: carder at July 10, 2008 8:35 AM


Thanks Bobby,

Remember that Eucharistic Video I sent you? What was that song and where was it from?

By the way, what DO you play for Gianna?

Posted by: mk at July 10, 2008 8:49 AM


"Remember that Eucharistic Video I sent you? What was that song and where was it from?"

Oh yes, MK. It was a VERSION of the "O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana by Carl Orff. The one that plays in the recording isn't the original score that Orff wrote; it's a different arrangement.

We play the baby Einstein CDs for her. They calm her down when we're in the car. Otherwise, we listen to Catholic Answers live and William Lane Craig when we're at home, or when we're in my car, we listen to 80s hair bands; Skid Row, Extreme, Tesla, Bon Jovi, Cinderella, Warrant, etc. She likes it!

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 9:04 AM


OMG I had a dream I was pregnant last night. Scary.

Posted by: prettyinpink at July 10, 2008 9:10 AM


O Fortuna...is that another opera?

Posted by: mk at July 10, 2008 10:02 AM


And the following is just a guess but I'd bet (if I were a betting man) that today in the USA more Catholics are acknowledging their agnosticism than agnosts are converting to Catholicism. My feeling is this seems to have become increasingly true as the Vatican has become more assertive since JP2 died.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 1:28 AM

SoMG,
Seperating the wheat from the chaff. Like cleansing the church of pedophiles. What specific assertions have you found to be driving Catholics to agnosticism?

Posted by: truthseeker at July 10, 2008 10:09 AM


"O Fortuna...is that another opera?"

No, that's the name of a single piece of music from a bigger thing called "Carmina Burana", which is a sort of quasi-opera. Chck this out http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana/dp/B00001ZSXC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1215702550&sr=1-2 If you scroll down to where you can listen to a 30 second sample of each piece, you will see that "O fortuna" is both the first and last piece.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 10:10 AM


"Truthseeker", of course you know more than I do about it but my understanding was you have to assist or enable an abortion--something like driving someone to get one, at least--before latae sententiae excommunication occurs. I don't think just disagreeing with RTLism is enough. I'm quite sure thinking most RTLs in the USA are crazy isn't enough.
Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 12:22 AM

SoMG,
Glad to see you have read the Catechism on this issue. The piece you are missing is that everything Catholic must be looked at thriugh a Christocentric lens. Abortion is SO against Jesus teaching that it is not possible to support it without in essence denying that place your faith and trust in Jesus. God see's through to your heart. Let me give you an example.

I know a cookie jar where somebody keeps $1000 in cash. I decide I want to steal the money and go to do it but the cash is no longer there so I don't actually take any money. Still same sin as if you did steal the money. Still requires repentance and penance before you receive forgiveness. Thus a woman who calls herself Catholic but "says" she would condone or choose an abortion is guilty of the sin just like the person who goes to steal the $1000 but doesn't because it is not there when they go to look at it.

Posted by: truthseeker at July 10, 2008 10:19 AM


Jill,
That Obama as Uncle Sam pic would make a great poster or bumper sticker. I don't see a copyright on it. Is it legal for me to save it and have posters or bumper stickers made up?

Posted by: truthseeker at July 10, 2008 10:26 AM


thanks Bobby. Yes, I love that one!

Posted by: mk at July 10, 2008 10:46 AM


I'm looking for a good CD of the Tridentine Mass. Any suggestions?

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 12:15 PM


when we're in my car, we listen to 80s hair bands; Skid Row, Extreme, Tesla, Bon Jovi, Cinderella, Warrant, etc.

Bobby, right on.

I'm an 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' man myself.

Posted by: Doug at July 10, 2008 12:27 PM


Does anyone else think Obama looks like Lorne Greene from Bonanza?

:: laughing ::

Pretty good, Janet. //:^)

Posted by: Doug at July 10, 2008 12:31 PM


There is no such thing as "government" funded. Its taxpayer funded and abortion advocates will use "taxpayer" funded to remind us all of how much these poor women and their children supposedly cost.

Mary, I've seen little if any of that. Also, by no means is the gov't's money all from taxpayers. Lots of it comes from the sale of bonds, bills, notes, etc., to both American investors who aren't taxpayers in that roll, and also to foreign individuals, corporations and nations.
.....


Do you have any proof as to the amount of money we have supposedly saved and how our taxes have been reduced thanks to taxpayer funded abortions?

You'd have to know how much was spent, first of all. If an unwanted pregnancy was continued, rather than ended by abortion, how much would that cost? To a substantial extent, that is unknowable.

However, even aside from the reasonable argument that unwanted pregenancies that weren't ended would cost more on average than wanted pregnancies, we could simply take all costs - all tax monies spent on kids in general, then divide by the number of kids.

That'd give a "per kid" amount, and you then could multiply that by the number of "taxpayer funded abortions" (if such really exists).

Posted by: Doug at July 10, 2008 12:41 PM


Doug: I've been waiting for a response from you. I knew you'd appreciate that one! Now, can you find a good picture of him? :)

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 12:47 PM


Doug, I like your "face". Add a body : snowman ?

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 12:55 PM


Hey, the snowman didn't post. Try again...

//:^) ( ) ( )

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 12:59 PM


SoMG: I posted this elsewhere (Just something to think about):

"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Sandy Murry (Madeleine L'Engle)

"Truth has nothing to do with the number of people it convinces." - Paul Claudel

"A comprehended God is no God at all." - Gerhard Tersteegen
Posted by: Janet at July 9, 2008 11:25 PM

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 1:02 PM


"I'm an 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' man myself."

Who put the bodies in the wishin well?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 1:23 PM



SoMG: "I never understand: if God is as important as believers all say He is, isn't it arrogant to imagine He cares about us or doesn't have anything better to do than listen to our prayers? Don't most important people tend to resent intrusions on their attention?"

Bobby:636: Right. You've touched on something very important; the fact that we are nothing compared to God. Comparing us to say, an amoeba is absolutely nothing comparing God with us. The gap is infinitely greater. But God has CHOSEN to love us, and adopt us as his own sons and daughters. We (every single one of us) are his children, and hence he loves us more than any of us love our own children. More than anyone has ever loved.

But you're right, it is somewhat paradoxical. Why would someone who is so great care about someone so crappy? The best analogy we have to begin to try and make sense of it is our own children. Now, I don't know if you have any children or have friends who have children SoMG, but the same sort of question can also be asked of them. Aren't I much better than my daughter? Here I am studying some of the most complex mathematics known to man, yet I stoop as "low" as to get poop all over my hands and wipe a 7 month olds butt.

I will to love my daughter, just as God wills to love us. Does he need us? No. Did he have to create us? No. If we don't love him back, will it make him sad or disappoint him? No. But his free gift of spending eternity with him is on the table. Free, but not cheap.

So in summary, he chooses to love us more than anything we could possibly imagine. Hence, he greatly cares about us and our prayers. I hope that begins to give you an idea of how something like that is possible.

Bobby, Perhaps it is your humility creeping in, but with all due respect I have to disagree with you that we are "absolutely nothing compared to God". We were created in God's likeness and image, therefore we have an inherent worth unlike any other creatures on earth- just as your daughter does although she doesn't have your math degrees. You are right that God doesn't measure our worth by our external, earthly achievements.

I agree that the analogy of the ideal love of parents for their children mirrors the love God has for His children. Speaking of paradox, everything around us is a paradox. One only has to read G.K. Chesterton to realize this.

I believe God is quite saddened when we don't love him back. He wants us to do good, and do it with great love. Not just because of love for Him, but for love of all mankind.

SoMG, It is no more arrogant to say God cares about us than for a son to say his father cares about him. God is perfection, he is love. With that understanding, we know God's response to us through prayer will not be resentment or any other negative one. God is also not limited to time - we can't assume our prayers will be all consuming of God's time and energy.


Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 1:33 PM


Bobby,
What no Poison?? I love 80's hair bands!! :)

Posted by: Carla at July 10, 2008 2:18 PM


I do stand corrected, Janet. I guess I was thinking of our being made in his image and likeness as a gift, and on our own without that, we are nothing. That is a bit dualistic of me. I'm not sure what it would mean to be us without being made in his image and likeness. That doesn't make much sense... Hey, I don't get much sleep anymore, so I'm allowed to say wacky things sometimes :)

Carla,

Oh yes! LOVE me some Poison. My wife took me to a Poison concert as a surprise once.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 10, 2008 2:38 PM


I've been waiting for a response from you. I knew you'd appreciate that one! Now, can you find a good picture of him? :)

Janet, I found another one of Obama where he resembles Lorne Green, here in an early radio interview:

Oops, that is Lorne Green, and it shows you how young Obama looks - he'll be 47 next month while Green was 27 in the picture.

Posted by: Doug at July 10, 2008 3:07 PM


Hey, I don't get much sleep anymore, so I'm allowed to say wacky things sometimes :)

No problem. I remember those days! I guess the gift you had in mind may have been God's gift of Jesus, (His Son who died on the cross to save us from our sins, and make us whole again). You were right, that with God all things are possible. Without God we are lost.

Posted by: Janet at July 10, 2008 4:14 PM


Carder, Pavarotti's vocal technique was superb but Domingo is a much better actor.

I once watched an interview with Pavarotti and he described vocal technique: "You take a deep breath, then you make yourself feel like you are on the toilet going to the bathroom, which sounds funny but is very serious, and then you let it out."

A terrific tenor today is Ben Heppner.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 4:52 PM


I could almost float away when I listen to Pavarotti sing "Recondita armonia" from "Tosca".

Posted by: Eileen at July 10, 2008 10:33 PM


I have a problem with Puccini. The only one I like at all is TURENDOT and I don't like that one much.

Posted by: SoMG at July 10, 2008 10:55 PM


mk,
I like to listen to the choir that sing during the papal services, not just the masses either. I have a recoording of tJPII praying roasary and singing hymns in latin and I enjoy it very much.
If you are looking for a the music from a Tridentine mass I would recommend looking for a copy of a recording from a Tridentine mass that the Pope presided over at the Vatican.

Posted by: truthseeker at July 11, 2008 1:49 AM


truthseeker:
Thanks for the tip on the Tridentine Mass, and JPII CD.

Posted by: Janet at July 11, 2008 5:14 AM