I have an unrelated religious question and I figured this would be the best place to ask it, since many important people in the Bible practiced polygamy, how come we don't practice it anymore?

I'm just wondering because the Bible says things about homosexuality and things like that, and polygamy would seem natural because it's a man and women and they have a marriage that produces children.

Does the Bible later renounce that?

"I'm certainly not going to apologize for something that isn't real and true"

I'd apologize for something I said that wasn't real or true.

Oh sorry one more thing, I'm surprised Jill that you aren't trying to convince them to be abstinent. I mean, if they are going to be forced to abort if they become pregnant wouldn't you just tell them to be abstinent?

I'm just wondering because you mentioned abstinence in so many other cases like this.

Jess, there has never been polygamy. Marriage has always been a union between one man and one woman.

Seriously though, I wonder if the people who wanted to end polygamy were accused of trying to "destroy marriage as we know it."

Didn't Jacob have four wives? And two were Leah and Rachel? And he was their first cousin?

Jess, Here's an article discussing polygamy in the bible.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4074.asp

Jess, the Bible advocates marriage between one man and one woman. The Bible does not endorse polygamy just because it reports it. The Bible is the story of fallen man being redeemed by a loving God through Jesus Christ's sinless life, sacrificial death, and resurrection.

In fact, descriptions of polygamy in the Bible often include its tragic affects, such as with Abraham, David, and Solomon.

And the Bible only advocates abstinence for unmarried people, not married people, except under a specific circumstance, and not for long.

Jess,
I am confused about your comments about abstinence. Do you mean the Chinese?

Well if someone is unable to support children, in situations of extreme poverty, famine, war or in this case, forced abortion, wouldn't you advocate abstinence rather then having an abortion or are condoms acceptable now? I know Jill doesn't like contraceptives so does that mean married couples have to choose between sex or having children they can't take care of?

Oh and one more question, If Adam and Eve were the first people, then did their kids have sex with each other so to make all the other people?

Jess - Jacob had two wives only because he was tricked by Laban - a relative. Fairly common today in many parts of the world. The other two women were concubines. Besides the semantics, there was a legal difference, particularly when it came to sons.

Jacob's love interest was Rachel, and so when she finally bore Joseph (coat of many colors) Jacob was thrilled.

Actually Christ pointed out that one man and one woman was always the way things were supposed to be. Go read Matthew 19:3-9.

"Oh and one more question, If Adam and Eve were the first people, then did their kids have sex with each other so to make all the other people?"

Yes. God allowed it for a certain amount of time (who knows how long) to get the population started. He was able to preserve the offspring of these relationships from having genetic defects or problems that we would see today. Now however, there is no need for that since we obviously don't need to reproduce with our close relatives or not reproduce at all. At least that is my understanding.

It's actually an interesting question that if we didn't have the a priori knowledge that relations with close relatives usually resulted in birth defects, would relations with close relatives be morally reprehensible from a natural law POV? I don't know. Chris or MK or anyone have any ideas?

"Yes. God allowed it for a certain amount of time (who knows how long) to get the population started. He was able to preserve the offspring of these relationships from having genetic defects or problems that we would see today."

Or, perhaps, it's just a story.

I know relatives from royal European families often married up until like a century ago.

I feel like Leah in the story of Jacob was the one who got the worst deal. She was saddled with a husband who obviously didn't like her.

Maybe we all have genetic problems as a result of that but since we all have them we don't see it as a problem. Maybe we were all supposed to be orange but because of inbreeding we're not.

Hal,
It's His story. History.

It's not the lack of genetic problems with people that's a problem with the story of Adam and Eve.

It's the lack of genetic diversity. It's impossible for two people to produce the genetic diversity we see here today.

The Sumerians have a similar myth:

The Sumerian pantheon was ruled by the goddess Ninhursag or “Lady of All” who created a magnificent garden called Edinu (Eden, anyone?) and left it in charge of her lover, Enki. However, she told him to tend it, but not use it.

Now, this pantheon had senior and junior gods. The seniors lived in splendor while the junior gods did all the work--digging river channels, forming the mountains and so on.

In time the juniors rebelled. To keep the peace, Enki fashioned the first humans out of clay (out of what?), spittle and the blood of a slain god, so that the men could work and the gods could rest.

Meantime, Enki became curious about this garden over which he had charge. His assistant Adapa offered seven plants to Enki which he ate. This enraged the Ninhursag who caused him to fall ill. Enki felt pain in his rib, which is a Sumerian pun. The word ‘ti’ means both ‘rib’ and ‘life’. In other words, the illness was going to kill him. The other gods pleaded for mercy. In the end, Ninhursag spared him.

Obviously, when the authors of Genesis re-wrote it, they had to get rid of that nasty-she goddess and find a scapegoat to blame original sin on.

There's also a Persian myth where humans are created on the sixth day, following plants and animals. They also had a garden, called Vourukasha, with a Saena tree - or "tree of all remedies." Perhaps you'd equate that with the Tree of Knowledge, since there was another plant in the garden said to have healing properties and restore life to the dead.

Many of the myths note Adam and Eve characters as the "First of their kind" ... I believe something similar is in the Bible... but these stories are meant to be allegorical. They're meant to be stories to set your kids to bed with. It's only out of idiocy that people started taking them seriously.

I know relatives from royal European families often married up until like a century ago.

I think a lot of them were crazy too. :)

Nothing is impossible with God, Edyt. NOTHING. His ways are not our ways.

I would be careful while throwing around the word idiocy towards all of those who are believers on this site.

Ooooh, Carla, is that a threat? Are you all going to come over and beat me to death for blasphemy?

Evolution is evolving incest. Same problem is asked. Hitler to Madame Blavatsky believed in some form of gods mating with humans. The most hillarious myth of modern day science/atheist is, transpermia.
Or Spock being reborn as a "planet" always excites atheist into confirming what Chesterton said about those that don't believe in God. "When people cease to believe in God, it's not that they believe in nothing, but they will believe in anything". Such as transpermia.

Edyt:1:57: Many of the myths note Adam and Eve characters as the "First of their kind" ... I believe something similar is in the Bible... but these stories are meant to be allegorical. They're meant to be stories to set your kids to bed with. It's only out of idiocy that people started taking them seriously.

Please stop referring to all Christians at once on this site, since we are individuals just a you "atheists" are. :)

How many times can I say, bible stories are not myths. You have no right to comment as though you are an authority on the subject just because you've read the whole book and some of us haven't.

The word "idiot" is not allowed on this site, so I would think that "idiocy" is frowned upon too.

What's with the threat accusation? Silly.

Carla, 2:04: Nothing is impossible with God....His ways are not our ways.

Amen, Carla, Amen!

Janet,

Every culture has its own creation myth. I used to read them as a child, because they actually make really great stories. Many cultures have their own flood myth too. Their own myth to explain why the sun rises and sets. A myth to explain why people behave certain ways.

One of my favorite myths is an Iroquois/Seneca native American myth called "How the Chipmunk Got Its Stripes."

You can read it here.

These stories have also been passed down through the generations.

I also love Egyptian myths and the study of Egyptian culture.

Needless to say, you seem to have no trouble brushing aside those stories, told and written down through the generations, as if they are untrue.

Why? What makes those stories false and your story true?

What about those parents who have lost their only child due to what it appears to be shoddy building practices?

Those 144 bucks can go a long way.

Edyt is mad at herself and it shows in her posts. Edyt, did you have an abortion?

Hi Edyt,

Not threatening. I would be careful, I said.

You are hardly as tolerant of believers as we are of your rants.

Heather,
To be fair, we should accuse Edyt of having had an abortion, I think.

Ahh! Oops! SHOULDN'T. SHOULDN'T. Above should read "we shouldn't accuse Edyt of having had an abortion." Yikes.

Hahaha, sometimes you people are really ridiculous.

No, I've never had an abortion. Or ever been pregnant as far as I can tell... though, knowing the miscarriage rate, it is likely that I could have been pregnant and miscarried. Who knows?

And what am I mad at myself about? Knowing ancient myths? Having an awareness of how myths are formed and passed on through the generations? Thinking the Bible contains some of the myths, or traces of myths that we have already disregarded?

Heather, maybe you need to look within yourself and figure out why you felt the need to accuse me of having an abortion, which has absolutely nothing to do with my understanding of mythology.

Carder,
I read and reread that hoping they really didn't add insult to injury for these parents with $144!!

I love reading Grimm's fairy tales. I have to wonder if there is some sort of true story behind all the magic. I have a big book of all their stories next to my bed I read almost every night. The Princess in Disguise, The Shoes That Were Danced to Pieces, Mother Hulda and The Girl With no Hands are probably my favorites.

If I ever have a daughter I want to name her Hulda.

Edyt said: It's the lack of genetic diversity. It's impossible for two people to produce the genetic diversity we see here today.

Ah, but evolution has that same problem - and if anything it's being shown that we are losing more genetic diversity than gaining.

Bobby, 3:08:
I thought you were being sarcastic if it makes you feel any better.
:)

Jess,

ME TOO! I loved reading some of our most popular fairy tales by Grimm. They were SO morbid compared to the Disney version.

Needless to say, you seem to have no trouble brushing aside those stories, told and written down through the generations, as if they are untrue.

Why? What makes those stories false and your story true?

Posted by: Edyt at June 4, 2008 2:36 PM

For a journalist, you have a strange way of interpreting my posts. You can't assume words or thoughts that aren't there. Like saying I think Egyptian myths are untrue. I made no comment whatsoever on Egyptian myths. Reread my post.

I made no comment on the bible story of Adam and Eve either, just that you shouldn't call bible stories myths. It's disrespectful, IMO. You never know, maybe the Ancient Egyptians are rolling in their sarcophagi about us calling their stories "myths.

Ah, but evolution has that same problem - and if anything it's being shown that we are losing more genetic diversity than gaining.

We as people? I know animals are losing genetic diversity, but that's mostly due to demographic threats. Cheetahs, for example, lost a lot of their genetic diversity due to climate change about 10,000 years ago. As many cheetahs died out, they were forced to inbreed to survive. So they have considerably less chances of survival today than they did before climate change.

Humans, since they began from a small population anyway, started with relatively little genetic diversity. We have less than chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas. But we also evolved differently. Using our minds and not biological changes, we've adapted to cold weather through technology of warmer clothing and manufactured heat. We have outsmarted hunters by becoming farmers. Many humans who would have died out naturally (disease, starvation, etc) are now allowed to live on. The result is that we could not survive in the wild anymore, and if our technology were to fail us, there would be a mass migration to areas where humans can sustain themselves.

Perhaps if we had better genetic diversity, people in countries with little access to food would have the ability to survive longer without it. People who live in dry areas would have water stored in their bodies like camels.

If anything, our lack of genetic diversity today is our own fault for not naturally adapting and passing on good genes for various environments.

Janet,

Myth: a sacred story usually concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to be their present form. The active beings in myths are generally gods and heroes. Myths are often said to take place before recorded history begins. A myth is a sacred narrative in the sense that it contributes to systems of thought and values, and that people attach religious or spiritual significance to it. Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the narrative is either true or false.

So... the Biblical creation story is a sacred story concerning the origins of the world and how the world came to be in its present form.

I see nothing disrespectful about considering it a myth, along with all the other myths of the world.

Right Edyt. Like the word "cult," the word "myth" has pretty much taken on a different connotation than what it actually means. In the proper sense of the word, I would say that the Catholic Church is a cult (or maybe the sacramental system to be precise), although most people who would repeat that phrase would mean something different. Using the word myth in its actual sense as you posted above, I would agree with you that the Genesis account in question is myth.

Edyt 3:52: The active beings in myths are generally gods and heroes. Myths are often said to take place before recorded history begins.

Here's your problem, Christianity is based on ONE God, not GODS. It a record of history. (I don't want to get into the literal vs. allegorical thing), therefore, it's not quite the same as a piece of mythology according to your definition, although I admit it does share some of the same characteristics. That's why it is disrespectful/and even incorrect to call the bible stories "myths", IMO.

Bobby, if I was in the practice of using words incorrectly, I wouldn't be a journalist now, would I?

Janet, many myths contain only one god or one hero. That definition used the plural because was talking about the active beings in myths. Subject-verb agreement demands that the object follows the subject in that they would be plural as well.

The sentence could be rephrased in the case of the Biblical creation myth to say: The active being in this myth is a god.

However, since the sentence was written with all myths, gods, and heroes in mind, it used the plural form.

By some interpretation, there are three "gods" in the Bible - the son, the father, and the Holy Spirit.

"Christianity is based on ONE God, not GODS. It a record of history. (I don't want to get into the literal vs. allegorical thing), therefore, it's not quite the same as a piece of mythology according to your definition, although I admit it does share some of the same characteristics. That's why it is disrespectful/and even incorrect to call the bible stories "myths", IMO."

I should also add that I do see your point here Janet, and it makes sense. But as you pointed out, especially if one takes a more allegorical understanding of Genesis (which is permitted in Catholic theology), it can be proper to refer to it as myth. In fact, I would argue that even if one takes a more literal/historical understanding of Genesis, they could still refer to it as myth. The word just has a very negative charge to a lot of people, I think.

"Bobby, if I was in the practice of using words incorrectly, I wouldn't be a journalist now, would I?"

Haha, touche!

The word just has a very negative charge to a lot of people, I think.

Exactly. Like feminist.

"Bobby, if I was in the practice of using words incorrectly, I wouldn't be a journalist now, would I?"

Haha, touche!

Of course, now that I've said it, I'm going to have people checking everything I say to make sure it's correct.

Bad move, Edyt... bad move...

Edyt, Thanks for the English lesson. Ciao.

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in One.

"God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Three in One."

Right Carla. Three persons coexisting in one nature; one being. Hence one God.

Bobby 4:11: I should also add that I do see your point here Janet, and it makes sense. But as you pointed out, especially if one takes a more allegorical understanding of Genesis (which is permitted in Catholic theology), it can be proper to refer to it as myth. In fact, I would argue that even if one takes a more literal/historical understanding of Genesis, they could still refer to it as myth. The word just has a very negative charge to a lot of people, I think.

Which is why I would refrain from calling it a myth, especially on a pro-life blog where it will definitely cause confusion and controversy. Unless that's the idea?

++++++++
Edyt, You never commented on these points:

Janet said: For a journalist, you have a strange way of interpreting my posts. You can't assume words or thoughts that aren't there. Like saying I think Egyptian myths are untrue. I made no comment whatsoever on Egyptian myths. Reread my post.

I made no comment on the bible story of Adam and Eve either, just that you shouldn't call bible stories myths. It's disrespectful, IMO. You never know, maybe the Ancient Egyptians are rolling in their sarcophagi about us calling their stories "myths.

Edyt said: Bobby, if I was in the practice of using words incorrectly, I wouldn't be a journalist now, would I?

Bobby: Haha, touche!

You still need to practice interpreting others people's words, as well as you appear to use your own, Edyt.

Janet,

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post. It has been my experience that people who say the Biblical creation story is not a myth will also turn around and call other creation stories "myths."

So I ask: Do you consider the Egyptian and other creation stories from around the world "myths"?

And I didn't say you said anything about Adam and Eve. I was merely pointing it out. Others in the thread were talking about genetic diversity and inbreeding and the actual possibility of Adam and Eve and whatnot, and I added in the fact that other cultures have similar creation myths as well... which we all do not believe, for whatever reason.

If you want to go into interpreting problems, please examine your own, Janet, which I did not feel the need to point out as you have:

Please stop referring to all Christians at once on this site, since we are individuals just a you "atheists" are. :)

Please show me where I referred to all Christians.

How many times can I say, bible stories are not myths. You have no right to comment as though you are an authority on the subject just because you've read the whole book and some of us haven't.

An authority on the Bible? When did I say that? When I wrote about other creation myths?

I was told by "someone" or read it "somewhere" when I was homeschooling my kids that Adam and Eve had sets of twins.These twins then reproduced producing more children.

As for royalty I read recently in a geographic magazine that royal families and families of privilege often married cousins etc to ensure that wealth stayed in the family and so did not observe the degrees of kinship that the Catholic church does, for example.

Heather, maybe you need to look within yourself and figure out why you felt the need to accuse me of having an abortion, which has absolutely nothing to do with my understanding of mythology.

Posted by: Edyt at June 4, 2008 3:13 PM--------------- Not that it matters, but someone said that most of the women who post PC have had an abortion at some point.

Edyt, I was also wondering if you would look inside of yourself and tell me why you were so mad at Carla?

Mad? Where did I sound like I was mad at Carla?

Ooooh, Carla, is that a threat? Are you all going to come over and beat me to death for blasphemy?

Posted by: Edyt at June 4, 2008 2:15 PM

Not that it matters, but someone said that most of the women who post PC have had an abortion at some point.

Right. It doesn't matter.

Haha, if you thought that sounded like I was mad, maybe you need to get out more and socialize with normal people and learn the difference between being mad and mocking someone.

hahaha..back at you. Don't tell me what I need to do.

Whoa, chill out Heather. You're really uptight today.

I am? No. Actually, I'm just straight up.

Hahaha, okay, whatever you say.

Edyt: Never mind, this conversation of ours is going nowhere fast.

Heather, Edyt,

It's understandable how our words can be construed to mean something else given the medium we have to work with: the computer.

Most of us at one time or another have had to clarify our intentions with regard to what we post.

How about we take a deep breath and start over, 'kay?

Let's see, I believe the article was originally about the Chinese gov't reimbursing parents a pittance for their dead children.

Maybe Jill can post a separate article about creation stories and then we can all let 'er rip.

carder, it's so nice to see you as a mod!!:)

carder, okay....in response to you above.

Heather,

You're sweet.

Yeah, this mod position will look great on my resume.

Believe you me, I'm clarification queen!

carder, why thank you. so ru.

I'm clarification queen!

Ha! Carder, you've also had some damn good posts lately - I think you're "blossoming."