A fake loser.

I think the crocodile tears were fake. In fact, I didn't see any at all! I think she's grasping for any vote she can at this point, and the sympathy one is the one she's going for now. I beleive she's also trying to show the country she's not "cold as ice"...but I don't think it worked, nor will it ever.

Actually, she's not crying. AB, you're right. Yes. This country is spiraling out of control. 1.3 million abortions a year is definitely out of control. Hillary will only make this problem worse.

The first thing that came out of my mouth when I saw that last night was "Oh please..."

Thanks a bunch Hillary, for proving all of the sexists who said a woman couldn't be president without crying right.

Granted, ALL of the candidates are over tired and beaten down at this point, but if theres no crying in baseball, theres no crying in politics either.

Anyways, its irrelevent - Barack is already showing a double digit lead in NH. She's toast.

GO BARACK!!!!

Amanda, the fact is women are more prone to cry. It's the way we're made up. Isn't it actually sexist to disparage appropriate, controlled tears?

Fake! I am sure that this display was choreographed down to the last word. Her handlers wanted her to show her human side because they know that a majority of the public views her as cold and robotic. If a male canidate started tearing up, people would take notice of it also. I really don't think that the public is comfortable with crying canidates-male or female.

My question is, she says she sees this country "spirally out of control"...what exactly does she see?

And what exactly does she think ignoring terrorism, condoning the killing our our children or socializing medicine is going to fix?

When I say "This country is spiraling out of control" I mean BECAUSE of people like her and what she believes...

As to crying...yeah tears happen. But if she is melting down because she is this tired, this early in the game, what is she gonna be like when another 911 happens, or an "October Missles" moment comes?

Amanda,

I haven't had a chance to say hi. Tho I must say you weren't exactly welcomed warmly yesterday.

I'm impressed you're back.

So you're going to Africa again? That is so totally, unbelievably awesome.

We need more people like you.

And what is this I read about someone in your life going through something...?

I don't blame you if you don't want to post it here after yesterdays greeting, but you know you can always email me. I admit, I'm very curious.

Either way, welcome back! You are always a pleasure. Speaking of pleasures, I met "Rae" on Sunday. What a love she is.

And guess what? We had breakfast! Looks like the breakfast club is becoming a reality.

LEAH,

Any chance you can stop in Chicago on your way to your "new" home?

MK, how did that go?

Heather,

It was awesome. Rae is great!

Hi MK!!

It was the protesting at people's homes on Christmas story that got me back in here. Made me too angry not to say something...and once I say something... I end up saying more things... and here I am again. Haha.

And yes - I had a somewhat opinion-altering experience this Fall - I posted the story in the Denver Planned Parenthood Showdown post, but I think it got a little lost in the comments. Should I repost it here?

Also yes - I'm going to Morocco and Southern Spain in April, and hopefully Uganda in December - if my fundraising goes well. I have been dreaming about shopping in Marrakesh and strolling in Casablanca for YEARS. Now I actually have the tickets sitting on my dresser. Makes living with my parents perfectly okay - for now.

Thats so awesome you actually met up with Rae. =)

Good to see you as well MK !

What did you guys do all day?

Did Rae come by herself, or was she with her friend? Heck, I'll drive to Chicago and eat with you. I have a celebrity friend who lives there.

I've driven there 3 times.

Heather do you know Oprah? :)

Nope, but you're on the right track.

Think NBC.

I think it's like a 6 to 8 hour drive for me.

Say it isn't Rosie!!!!

No. It's a man.

oops. I'd better say "acquaintance."

Say it isn't Rosie!
ha-ha!

I think by crying it hurt her. I also think admitting she was tired was a big no no as well. But it doesn't matter to me. I'm with Amanda on this one. GO BARACK!

Hey Barack fans,
I'm just curious, here...I listen to all candidates on each side, and I've gotta say, I don't really see what the big deal over Barack is, other than his excellent speech/delivery skills. He has a great voice, great poise & says the right words (sounds like MLK), but what do you think his record shows that makes him president material?

AB, I've talked to a lot of people who are really against him. I cannot see him or Hillary winning.

gotta run guys. Shall I say hobble? See y'all later.

I'd take Hillary any day over Barack, who has no experience and is completely untested. What little we do know about him doesn't bode well. But, no matter, as I will surely be voting Republican anyway!

S.

okay. 15 more minutes. Why do we ant Obama? The loser supports infanticide.

oops*want*

Exactly, AB Laura. What, other than superficial appearances and sounds, makes Barack qualified to be president? I mean, Romney, Huckabee, and Giuliani have a ton of executive experience in various capacities. McCain's been a senator forever and has a lot of foreign affairs experience (not to mention his military service and experience), even Hillary and Edwards have way more experience and knowledge than Barack. To me, he looks like an empty suit that's being propped up by *somebody*. I wonder who?

S.

I'm just hoping for a Howard Dean-style meltdown soon (YEEEEEAHHHHHHH!)

S.

Amanda,

Yes. Please repost it. And you better report in once in awhile from Africa. I really want updates. That is as exotic as you can get. I love learning about other cultures...

anon,
I don't think Barack's got it in him, but it would be fun...Hillabeast (thanks Heather, this one's my fav) should be ready for one soon, though! LOL

Heather,

Rae (and her friend) had to wait to meet me until after church and then they had to get on the road as it is a 6 hour car ride (it was Rae's birthday!) so we only had time for breakfast and hugs...

You know, MK, there are at least 3 of us here who live in Aurora.....just sayin'

Hi - I'm "anon" - you can call me "Sue" (Sorry, I forgot to put my name in there!)

S.

I gotta say, that I agree about Obama. Even if her were 100% pro life, I'd be dubious because of his lack of experience.

Maybe in 8 years?

Heather,

i know somebody famous who lives in chicago too.

Hillary is desparate and is pulling out all the stops to gather support. I just think she has broadened her acting skills to include looking vulnerable.

I agree with MK. If this really isn't an act, what would happen to her as leader of the free world????

I posed this question the other day.

For those of you supporting Obama, why do you think he has the credentials to become president?
Why are you voting for him???

Well, sheesh AB,

You know, MK, there are at least 3 of us here who live in Aurora.....just sayin'
Posted by: AB Laura at January 8, 2008 9:42 AM

What are you waitin' for...join the Breakfast Club!

Hi Sue,

Welcome...is this your first visit?

Sandy,

Countdown til the March...are flying with Jill and I?

Hi Sue!

I so wish I could go to the March!! Maybe next year! Can't wait to see the pictures and of course I will be praying!

Can you guys just imagine a meeting with Hillary as president (cringe) and a Muslim leader? I mean, with the way they feel about women, how would that meeting go when Hillary wouldn't be "getting her way"....I could just picture the press conference now. Scary!

I was watching Hannity & Colmbes (sp?) last night, and there was some guy on there that liked Hillary, and said her "breakdown" was due to loss of power because she's a control freak. If this is what happens when she looses "control", just imagine how she would act if we were attacked again...

Again, scary. Very, very scary.

Reposted for MK =)

Hooves -

My neighbor at the house I grew up in and his partner of 7 years, now husband (I LOVE Massachusetts!!), adopted a baby this Fall after supporting the mother through her pregnancy.

She was a 19 year old stripper who was living with 3 other strippers and had planned on getting an abortion when her mother offered to let her move home and make her car payments for her.

This girl had NO interest whatsoever in her pregnancy, and only went to her prenatal visits because thats how she got money from Randy and Tom. She gave birth to a healthy baby boy, had no interest in seeing him, or taking advantage of the offer of an open adoption with Randy and Tom offered. She just wanted it OUT and GONE.

Meanwhile Randy and Tom spent the first week just bursting in to tears of joy, taking 89384934793343 pictures, and just being the two most loving happy parents I've ever seen in my life.

I just thought about the idea that a girl who was THAT uninterested in her pregnancy, and her own health could still manage to turn her circumstance in to something that completed the lives of two other people who couldn't have their own children...that it should at least be considered as an option more than it is. The problem is that Randy and Tom have a lot of money - and a lot of would-be adoptive couples do not, and therefore lack the resources to do what they did. All the same, I just wish that more girls would look in to a private adoption if finances and/or health insurance that money and/or housing is an issue. Rather than putting so much emphasis on abortion OR keeping the baby - I wish we could put more focus and attention to improving access to adoptions.

It comes down to the fact that I would be more than willing to do the same kind of work I did as an intern for PP for a CPC that focused on adoptions, but then I am reminded of how often pro-life and virulent homophobia (as is often on display here in Jill's posts) go hand in hand. To me, thats just contradictory and ironic in a really really sad way. The hatred and fear that are cast upon gay couples obviously reduces the number of couples who would be THRILLED to support a woman through an unwanted pregnancy in order to adopt her child.

And then theres the pundits and extremists who think its OK to protest outside of people's homes, threaten practitioners, slash tires, tell me Jesus hates me, call me a monster and compare me to a serial killer because of my opinions, and call girls whores, murderers, and other foolishness. This makes it COMPLETELY impossible for me to identify with the pro life agenda.

So for now I guess I'm just somewhere between, but leaning towards pro choice, as I will always believe that abortion should be an option for victims of rape and incest and women who are completely incapable of getting through a pregnancy (homeless, addicted to drugs, etc). But now more than before, I firmly believe it should be the absolute last resort, not the first thing that comes to mind. I just wish extremists on both sides ( I see Jill the EXACT same way I see someone like Cecile Whatsherface - SO invested in her agenda that she's completely lost sight of ACTUALLY helping women) would stop fighting over stupidity like zoning laws and construction sites, take off their gloves, and spend more time helping the individuals who need it. It is SO possible for both sides to find common ground when helping women on a case-by-case basis... I've witnessed it with my own eyes - but thats awfully hard to do when you need to duck nasty insults or try to sympathize with the views someone who thinks its okay to protest at someone's home on Christmas day.

Posted by: Amanda at January 7, 2008 8:33 PM

His lack of experience in politics is actually one of the BIGGEST reasons I support Barack.

The position of president requires someone with charisma, intellectual intelligence, and the ability to look at a problem from many different angles and perspectives. It is a position that requries the GREAT responsibility of taking many factors and opinions in to account before making a decision. I think one of the biggest problem with the Bush Administration is his whole "I am the sole decider" attitude. I don't think any one person - no matter how experienced- is qualified to make decisions that can effect an entire country - that is why we have congress, the senate, and presidential cabinets. Because Barack is younger and newer and not so engrained in special interests and lobby groups, I see him as a leader who is more inclined to look fairly at all sides of an argument, rather than rush to a decision based on party lines or other alliances.

I don't see him vetoeing a bill just because it is a republican bill - which I see Hillary doing.

I think a fresh face in the White House will help begin the important job of improving our relationships with other nations.

I appreciate his emphasis on funding research to find alternatives to fossil fuels

I think that his support for civil unions is a good compromise

I think that he will bring a sense of optimism back to politics and begin a trend of removing the cronies in both parties who have managed to gain WAY too much power and influence and impede the democratic process.

I'm no Hillary fan but I don't think it's a problem that she choked up. She wasn't boo-hooing for goodness sake.

Besides there have been plenty of woman leaders. Margaret Thatcher comes immediately to mind.

As for Muslim countries and leaders Benazir Bhutto was successful in being elected as PM for Pakistan twice and was obviously enough of a threat this election for the opposition to assassinate her. (God rest her soul.)

Amanda said, "Because Barack is younger and newer and not so engrained in special interests and lobby groups, I see him as a leader who is more inclined to look fairly at all sides of an argument, rather than rush to a decision based on party lines or other alliances."
------Really, Amanda?

Obama backs Planned Parenthood clinic in Aurora
by James Kimberly

Today,Sen. Barack Obama became the first Democratic presidential candidate to weigh in on the battle over a Planned Parenthood clinic in Aurora.

Not surprisingly, the abortion rights supporter from Illinois said he would like to see the clinic open soon.

"I fully support Planned Parenthood's desire to open a new facility in Aurora," he said in a statement released this afternoon. "The proposed center will serve the growing population in a part of the state where access to a full range of reproductive health care services is lacking."

The statement went on to list some of the services the Planned Parenthood clinic would offer such as pap tests, contraceptive care, cancer screening and breast exams. It did not mention abortion procedures, which have drawn thousands of anti-abortion protesters to demonstrate outside the clinic.

Planned Parenthood built the $7.5 million, 22,000-square-foot clinic near New York Street and Oakhurst Drive on Aurora's east side this year and intended to open it Sept. 18. The City of Aurora has refused to grant Planned Parenthood an occupancy permit for the building until the city completes and independent investigation of how Planned Parenthood obtained building permits.

Planned Parenthood applied for the permits under the name Gemini Office Development, LLC, a subsidiary. Planned Parenthood said it applied under the Gemini name so as not to tip of anti-abortion protesters to the project. Some Aurora officials have accused Planned Parenthood of committing fraud.

"I hope the investigation by city officials into the permit process can be concluded as quickly and fairly as possible, so that this important facility can begin its operations," Obama said.

City spokeswoman Carie Anne Ergo said the independent investigations into the permitting process should be completed early next week.

Obama has a relationship with Aurora. When Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner ran for office in 2005, Obama came to town and campaigned on his behalf.

Obama also has a relationship with Planned Parenthood. In July, Obama, Sen. Hillary Clinton, and Elizabeth Edwards, wife of John Edwards, address the political arm of Planned Parenthood, according to the political Web site, TheHill.com.

Posted by John McCormick on September 28, 2007 6:26 PM | Permalink

I just dont like Hillary.

I am tempted to follow a friend and write in "Chuck Norris' Beard" for President..

Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer.

Too bad he never cries.

(unlike Hillary)

Midnite, Chuck Norris (and by association his beard) endorsed Huckabee. You could vote for him. ;)

Amanda, would you like a tissue?

Oh HUGE ::tacklehug:: for Amanda!

Kristen, I'm not digging Huckabee.

Hi MK!
I am beyond excited to be participating this year and feel so honored to be experiencing it with you and Jill.

I have my long underwear, hand and toe warmers all ready to go.

Amanda,

That was a great story. I've told you guys before that my mom would take a baby doll to bed with her every night, praying that the next morning would be the one where she got the phone call telling that she could take a 'real" baby to bed...

Adoption means so much, and nine months is so little time when you think of the dream that is fulfilled for couples who can't concieve.

PIP like Feminists for Life, for the same reasons you give. They tend to be less "religious" and more liberal on other things. Maybe you should check it out.

I'm thrilled to hear that you see the other side clearly. Rae says she not really pro life, she's anti stupidity!

I agree that a lot of finger pointing goes on in the pro life movement and it concerns me. The other day on the thread where you were getting beat up, I find myself siding over and over with you and Laura.

If it doesn't come from a place of love, and compassion, then it shouldn't come.

Screaming, accusing, bitter sarcastic comments do NOTHING to further our cause.

Unless I'm mistaken, we are here to change hearts and love women as well as the unborn. While ending abortion might be the end we are hoping for, the means are very important.

We tend to forget that while we are fighting AGAINST an ideal we are also fighting FOR human beings. Hating abortion is not the same as hating women who abort. Nor should it be. You are our sisters. We are your sisters. Sisters may not agree, but they should disagree with love.

Who was it that said, "The best way to destroy and enemy is to make them your friend?"

Amanda "but then I am reminded of how often pro-life and virulent homophobia (as is often on display here in Jill's posts) go hand in hand."

Please.

Amanda "But now more than before, I firmly believe it should be the absolute last resort, not the first thing that comes to mind."

why should it be a last resort.

Hillary is as phony as her blond hair. Everything about her is artificial...her looks, her "marriage", her "concerns" for this country, ad nauseum. She's nothing but a feeble attempt at a candidate for the radical feminists. Everything about her makes my skin crawl.

Jasper:

Dont please anyone.

I've heard many a people, especially Jill (& if I am not mistaken you too) say that LGBT couples should not be allowed to adopt children.

And I cant remember who it was, made some snotty comments about Cheny's daughter (who is in a loving lesbian relationship)giving birth to a child.

I dont understand why you nit pick about LGBT couples adopting when it is a better option than abortion...

Amanda-

I haven't read the previous thread where apparently you got "beat up" on, but I am an adoptive mom and what you have said of course resonates with me. My hubby and I recently went back to our Agency to begin the process for our third child (second adoption), and were kindly told we would have to wait a while to pursue it further because they had too many waiting families right now. Keep in mind, particularly all of you who are on the "if only they wanted non-White babies it would be ok" track, that we were applying exclusively for the AA program since we are already a transracial adoptive family.

I do not think that PP sees any value in adoption. I've read what they have to say on their website, and they do accurately describe the open adoption relationship. However, when they speak of the emotional consequences of adoption vs abortion, all the bad stuff is on the adoption side. No mention is made of the well-being of the baby or the grieving family that you would be helping, or the fact that medical bills are paid no matter what--at least at my Agency.

Perhaps you should work at a Family/Adoption Center if you want to encourage the life-side of things. I know my Agency offers the kind of long-term help and counseling that PP would never even consider, for moms and dads who choose to parent (and most of the people they counsel do end up parenting), birth parents, and even birth grandparents, as well as adoptive families.

"Please"

Thats seriously your response to everything I just said? Wow - thanks for the thoughtful analysis.

Coming from the guy who said it would better for a child to starve to death in Darfur than be adopted by gay parents?

You, Jasper, are the epitome of the homophobia I can't stand within the pro life movement.

So PLEASE all you want.

"Coming from the guy who said it would better for a child to starve to death in Darfur than be adopted by gay parents?"

why is it one or the other?

No, there are plenty of straight couples who want to adopt. A child needs a Mother and a Father. Not 2 mothers or 2 fathers, give the kid a break.

Amanda, why should abortion be a last resort?

Ahhhh well, I see we are back to sniping.

EH,

Good Luck on the third...I have a friend who has adopted 2 kids from China and 4 from Viet Nam. It apparently isn't too difficult from Viet Nam right now. Any thoughts to adopting out of Country?

To paraphrase a great movie line, "There is no Crying in politics!"

I'm not sure whether Hillary was really crying or not, but I just thought it was stupid. I also don't think there is crying at work either -- it is inappropriate for anyone. You can't communicate through tears, problems can't get solved when one party is overly emotional. It makes the weeper weak and everyone else uncomfortable.

That's not to say that I don't cry, I do. Everyone should be able to have a good cry now and then, but not in a business or political sphere, not in public -- barring a sudden personal tragedy -- it's just not done.

I haven't liked Hillary, but I always respected her strength to a certain extent. She came across as a powerful, well-educated woman -- but that 'crying thing' was just too bizarre. It made me cringe. That little act just fulfilled what a bunch of sexists out there think about women in power... thanks, Hillary

EH -

Yes, the friends I spoke of were trying in vain for I think 2 years before this situation finally worked out - and worked out perfectly.

I agree that PP doesn't put enough emphasis on adoption, which is why I have a hard time saying I'd take a side of either organization.

The fact that adoption agencies pick apart willing families over things like traffic tickets and level of education and make it so financially restrictive is just baffling to me.

"You, Jasper, are the epitome of the homophobia I can't stand within the pro life movement."

Amanda, why are you posting as Anon...and why are you calling me a homophobe?

again, if you have any courage, why should abortion be a last resort?

Stop whining and see if you can answer the question.

"why is it one or the other? "

I don't know Jasper- YOU are the one who said that, not me.

"No, there are plenty of straight couples who want to adopt. A child needs a Mother and a Father. Not 2 mothers or 2 fathers, give the kid a break."

So says you. I say a happy home is a happy home is a happy home.

"Amanda, why should abortion be a last resort?"

Did you not read anything I wrote? If you can turn an unwanted pregnancy in to a gift to a family who cannot have their own children, it benefits all parties involved. Including gay couples.

Wow. You are unbelievable.

I posted as anonymous because I forgot to enter my name. OH NO! Send the lions after me!!!

Whining? Because I'm trying to explain how I feel about something?

And how about giving more than 10 minutes to answer you for Christ's sake? I'm at work...

Good Lord..... now I remember why I stopped posting here.

On second thought MK, taking your email address sounds like a better idea.

mk,
I don't think it's sniping, and I really think that some people take other's comments WAY too personally. These are emotionally-charged topics for all involved. Is it really that surprising that the comments would be emotionally-charged also?

Amanda --

Thanks for filling us in on your background. Though I am firmly pro-life, I'm probably closer to your positions than some PL'ers on this board.

Adoption is a great option. Five of my nine nieces and nephews were adopted as was my favorite sister-in-law. I have gay friends who are wonderful parents to a child no one else seem to want -- he was 6 months old. I guess that baby wasn't the right color for some people and the crackbaby thing scared them off. Their son is a real joy to his family and classmates, he is living in a stable home -- not an orphanage.
I'm not homophobic and I'm Prolife. I try to look at people's actions before judging. I just remember that when I was pregnant and single, my gay friends and other 'outsiders' were more supportive than some of the regular folks.

Amanda, thanks again for posting and good luck on your awesome trip... you make me a bit jealous.

Hey, did you guys know this?

Bipolar disorder affects approximately 5.7 million adult Americans, or about 2.6% of the U.S. population age 18 and older every year. (National Institute of Mental Health)

Amanda, but why should abortion even be a last resport though? there is always somebody who wants or is waiting to adopt a baby.

No, I do not have plans to adopt out of country at this time, though I would dearly love to adopt from Africa, particularly Rwanda. First of all, we have an AA daughter and we want to have two AA children because transracial adoptees tend to do the best when they have siblings of the same race. Second, we cannot give the time to traveling that would be required for international adoption because we do already have our two toddlers at home. Third, we like birthparent involvement as much as possible. And fourth, international adoptions are averaging 20-30 grand so it is cost prohibitive. Another AA adoption will probably be about half that. So, we'll just wait. God did pretty tremendous things with my family the last time around--click through to my blog for details--and I'm sure He has something cool lurking in the background for us this time, too.

EH,
Awesome!!!

what's "AA"? (I apologize in advance for my stupidity....)

African American

people who ask why vote for Barack-

His understanding and background of multiculturalism and his promise to talk to even our enemies will lead to a better foreign policy and respect worldwide.

He cosponsored bills with Republicans before, he knows how to reach across the aisle--if a good bill goes before him, regardless of party line, he will accept it.

Most of the plans he supports make a lot of sense to me.

He seems very passionate about his calling. His strong and honest character stands out.

He takes no money from federal lobbyists and PACs- guess who does?

His inexperience is not a huge problem to me. We don't need another beaurocrat with experience screwing lots of people over- we need someone who knows the system but knows what needs to change out it.

EH,
oh...duh!

If Hillary is going to cry, for goodness' sake cry in private. It makes her appear to look weak- she's already broken on the campaign trail? What if there is a national crisis?

*change about it

PIP "people who ask why vote for Barack"

Obama supports infantice, what else do we need to know about the wimp.

PIP,

I will now refer to you as Pro-abort. Your pro-life claims are fraudulent.

AB Laura,

There just seems to be a lot animosity around here lately.

The thing that (is supposed to at least) make this site different than all others is that we "listen" to each other, don't judge each other and treat each other with respect. While I understand that there are some on either side that don't do this, their behavior is not an excuse to join in.

I realize that we are in an emotional debate, I'm not talking about getting emotional. I'm talking about the name calling, the I'm better than you attitude and the general bickering that has been taking place.

Hal left because of it, and he has been a regular here for a long time. Amanda too, has been here for a year now. And she sounds sorry she came back. Midnite knows what I'm talking about because she was here when this site took a turn for the better.

I just don't see what we are hoping to accomplish here. It takes a lot of guts to come into enemy camp and I give "the other side" lots of credit and more leeway than I give our side.

I just don't think we're being all the "Christian" lately...

Do you really love these guys or is this all about a way to vent?

1 Corinthians 13:1-13

If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.

Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.
*
It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth

It covers all things,
it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things,
it endures in all things.

Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.

For we know in part and we prophecy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.

When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant;

when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.

For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.

But now remains
faith, hope, love,

these three;

but the greatest of these is love.

mk,
Are you asking me and directing that to me personally?

AB,

I specifically am NOT naming names. I'm just saying that the general tone of this site has taken a turn towards the hostile.

You asked, I'm giving my opinion.

If I was prochoice and came on here in the last couple of days, I'd hightail it out of here so fast...

But if that is the way you guys want this site to go, then fine. I don't own the site. I realize that it will change and mutate over time...but if it ever gets to be all about ganging up on our guests, I'm out of here.

There are any number of pro life blogs people can go on. I love this one BECAUSE of the welcoming and loving attitude that usually pervails...

MK,

I didn't critize Amanda one damn time since she's been back. I don't know what the hell she is talking about. or Hal, or midnite.

this is bullshit.

Jasper,

Calm down...AB just said how everyone is taking things too personally and then you both get all defensive.

It's not any one person. It's not any one comment.

It's just a pervasive attitude. Read over the last couple of days posts and you'll see.

I love you Jasper, you know that. And I love all of my "team"...but ask yourself, where have all the pro choicers gone? Even Erin came on yesterday and left because she saw what was going on...

It concerns me, that's all.

Amanda,

Thanks for reposting your story. I asked you about it on the other thread and didn't spot your response.

I've been thinking about it. Personalities aside, you would be pro-life? Is that what I'm hearing? Does this mean you're pro-abortion only because you like pro-aborts more?

MK,

Your point is well taken. I need the reminder myself, especially when I get my Irish up.

I always think of how real conversions of heart comes through observing other's actions and having unexpected experiences. I've never had some one 'rant' me into a different way of thinking. Additionally, communication is a two-way street -- you have to listen.

This site is unique, in that there is dialog going on and some relationships seem to have been forged across lines here. I regret some of the flames I've sent out in the past and will try my best to work for the better.

AB,

Hey, did you guys know this?
*
Bipolar disorder affects approximately 5.7 million adult Americans, or about 2.6% of the U.S. population age 18 and older every year. (National Institute of Mental Health)
Posted by: AB Laura at January 8, 2008 12:01 PM

My son has bi-polar. It's scary. It's seems to be getting more and more prevalent. And it's really sad, because it pops up right about the time you send them off to college by themselves. They are all alone when the symptoms start.

I wonder why it's becoming so wide spread.

LB,

Thanks for seeing my point. Every war must have a strategy and ours should be love the enemy so much and set such a good example that they are bustin' down the doors to join our side...

Feed my Sheep...that's all I'm sayin.

Jasper,

I agree with Amanda. 1 mother and 1 father does not make a happy home. This is not "the secret recipe" for a happy home.

A happy home could be a single mother or a single father or even a LGBT couple. Happy is happy no matter who is living in the house.

And yes, you are a homophobe. You fear what you dont understand, and that makes me pitty you. There is not a right or wrong way to love. You can not help who you love, and only some are lucky enough to find someone to love them back for who they are. It should not matter the person's race, gender, religion, or shoe size; LOVE is LOVE.

Midnite,

Do you think, tho, without saying that NO HOMOSEXUALS should raise kids...that the BEST scenario is a (and I emphasize) loving mother/father home.

I mean all things being equal, do you think that two really wonderful women can raise a child as well as two really wonderful married people of the opposite sex?

I'm sorry MK, I love you too. I know what you mean.
I just don't know what Amanda is talking about. Calling me a homophobe out of the blue because I don't agree with gay couples adopting Children. I have nothing against gay people, I have some friends that are gay.

OK. One, Hillary didn't really cry. She got a little choked up. Imagine being on a campaign trail like that. It's exhausting and demanding and a lot of people hate her. I'm not a Hillary fan myself, but I do realize that she IS a very strong woman. And while we're talking tears, our last three presidents have choked up or cried during their presidencies. Bush Sr, Bill Clinton, and Bush Jr all have had televised incidents where they have been near tears. I don't think it has anything to do with gender. She's a human being, and it takes strength to be in the public eye all the time and deal with constant attacks. I'd say the same about any presidential candidate, Dem or Repub. Honestly, I don't CARE. She's human. She's exhausted. She didn't break down sobbing, for heaven's sake. Her voice squeaked a bit and she sniffled.

And THANK YOU, MK! I keep coming on here and reading posts and then running away. People have been really up-in-arms the last couple days. Can't we all just get along? ;-)

I agree with Jill on the point about "women cry"...

Women are different than men. And I think a man can do a better job of teaching a boy to be a man than a woman can. Likewise, I think a woman can teach a girl how to be a woman better than a man can.

Which is not to say that they can't love equally...

Just that it might be preferable if men taught boys and women taught girls.

Of course, a loving gay couple would always, hands down beat out an abusive couple of the opposites sexes.

Also, Jill, speaking of sexist, women are not more prone to cry. Environmental factors have more to do with the establishment of those kind of gender roles. I'm usually hard-pressed to find a guy that doesn't cry more than I do. I am not a very emotional person, I value my ability to stay calm and rational in just about any situation. Sure, there are some women who embrace that kind of role, and I wouldn't want them to be president. But not just anyone should be president either- man or woman. It doesn't matter the strength of the gender, it matters the strength of the PERSON.

Jasper,

I'm sorry MK, I love you too. I know what you mean.
I just don't know what Amanda is talking about. Calling me a homophobe out of the blue because I don't agree with gay couples adopting Children. I have nothing against gay people, I have some friends that are gay.

And that would upset me too, but WE have to take the high road. Midnite (no offense babe) just called you a homophobe and then proceeded to put the words LOVE IS LOVE in bold.

But when that happens, someone has to turn things around...you know what I mean? And it should be us, because this is our site and they are our guests....

Erin,

Don't you think tho, that as a rule women tend to be more emotionally expressive? I think men can express anger, or lust but the softer emotions...well, I don't know. They seem a little more stoic.

I think you are the exception to the rule. When those men cried, what were they crying about? And what was Hillary crying about?

Don't get me wrong, I don't veiw crying as a sign of weakness. My comment about her wasn't because she was crying, it's because she was melting down because she was tired. Man or woman, when a crisis comes, I want someone that can shut off their emotions completely (as you claim to do) until the crisis is over...

Erin,
I think Hillary qualifies as human, but barely.
I don't consider her a strong woman. A strong woman would not berate our military staff or white office staff the way she has been known to do. That behavior just shows her own insecurities.

If she were strong she would have left her philadering husband and created her own political path. At least then she would have garnered some respect on my part.

As far as other presidents showing tender emotions, I don't think it was because they were exhausted on the campaign trail.

If she is exhausted now, what would she be like 6 months into a presidency??

It's always interesting when they show the "before" presidential term and "after" presidential term photos. These people show so much physical aging due to stress it is scary.

MK,

I think it depends on the situation, the couple involved and the child.

As I stated above, just b/c a family has your typical mother and father does not mean that it is a happy or even healthy home.

I think that if a LGBT couple wants to adopt a child, they should be allowed to. Of course, following proper procedures, but they should not be turned down based on their sexual orientation. That is called discrimination and I believe it is still illegal in the USA.

I think that some LGBT couples are more loving and more open minded to things than straight couples.

So to answer your question MK, I think it just depends.

Actually, she's not crying. AB, you're right. Yes. This country is spiraling out of control. 1.3 million abortions a year is definitely out of control. Hillary will only make this problem worse.

Posted by: heather at January 8, 2008 8:05 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nah. 1.3 abortions is trivial, and abortion doesn't even make the top ten list of issues Americans care about.
Republicans had an 8-year window where they controlled the House, Senate and the White House, and did NOTHING. Why? Better that half of all Republicans support Roe v. Wade - especially upscale Republican Women who value their education and career.

mk,
I'm with Jasper on this one....tones are really hard to "read" on the internet. MANY PC'ers dish it out royally, then you come to their defense when we are simply giving a response. Again, emotionally charged issues, mk!

I'm still waiting for a list of do's and dont's on the way PL'ers are supposed to act, think and respond. I still haven't gotten any takers.

And just for the record, I don't know how long you have been a Christian, but it seems like a long time. Many Christians are "baby" Christians...they are in the "learning process" where the Holy Spirit is teaching them how to live a more "Christian" life. I loved your post on 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 - When one becomes a Christian, these things are not magically implanted in them. They are seeds that grow over time. I think patience is the key....
I also think that as some people are reached in soft-spoken ways, some people need to be reached in not-so subtle ways. Maybe God knows those who won't ever change, and those that will by the words someone not so eloquently as yourself may put it. Just as there are some that will change only by eloquent words such as yours.

My reason to be here is to learn. I am not out to "change" anyone, because I know that only God can do that. I asked Jill on a previous post for biblical reasons on why she was pro-death penalty. I did this because I was "wishy-washy" on the subject. I did not get a response. Maybe she missed it, I don't know. My point is, is that we are all here for different reasons, yet we are all here. If someone wants to go, let them! Their heart will probably lead them back, anyway. I don't appease people and their beliefs to promote some sort of Pro-life agenda that I just don't have. If this doesn't fit in with what you & Jill are looking for, let me know & I'll gladly leave as well. (ok, not gladly, but I will humbly go)

Some of this makes me think of "Mrs. Debbie" a lady who moderates a forum called "Teens-4-Christ" and has given us such gems as:

"God calls MEN to His service. The lady is called by God to be his wife. Her calling is to follow him wherever the Lord leads him."

"Key thought here - Women took over the men's jobs! I understand that companies were very short-staffed during WWII and women were called upon to keep the country going - BUT - as soon as the men came home those women should have headed back home to fulfill their original purpose as keepers at home! However, that is not the topic here - just wanted to get that thought in there. There is NO reason why the ladies could not do those jobs properly attired as a lady. It was just simpler to put on the man's pants than to become creative in their ladylike dress...... Although these women were hard workers at their new jobs, they failed miserably at remaining the ladies they once were."

Yeah. Way to represent your religion, lady.

I meant white house office staff.

"we need someone who knows the system but knows what needs to change out it."

My point is that, being so new to GOVERNMENT (not politics) Obama does not know this.

"Also, Jill, speaking of sexist, women are not more prone to cry. Environmental factors have more to do with the establishment of those kind of gender roles."

Proof either way?

S.

And that would upset me too, but WE have to take the high road. Midnite (no offense babe) just called you a homophobe and then proceeded to put the words LOVE IS LOVE in bold.

None taken. I call them like I see them. And for the record, I dont love Jasper.

But he has said before that a "child should starve to death in Darfur" rather than be adopted by a LGBT couple.

Do you agree MK? (I really hope not)

That right there proves that Jasper is a homophobic and would rather let a child DIE than be adopted by a couple who could love him/her like their own child.

Now please tell me that is not f*ck*d up beyond belief!!

Erin --

I agree, it's the strength of the person that matters. Tears in public can be powerful, for the right reason. Hillary's little episode made me uncomfortable and you are right she didn't quite cry actually.

I hope people don't really pick their president based on a half-minute of video, anyway. Perhaps that is wishful thinking.

Bye all for now --- I really need to concentrate on my work!

Haven't commented on this one yet. I guess I have no opinion on a crying Hill.
Amanda, I can agree to disagree with you and not attack you. I have enjoyed getting to know you and thank you for sharing.
Erin, I come here and run away and then come back too.
You have both probably been around here longer than I have, but I do think that you have much to say. So do I. Good thing.
Won't you be my neighbor? (Sorry. Mr. Rogers is on and has invaded my brain)
Peace.

Per Laura:
Nah. 1.3 abortions is trivial, and abortion doesn't even make the top ten list of issues Americans care about.

Laura,
Interesting comment since I have read over and over and over again on this site from PCers who would only vote for a PC candidate.

mk- you mean kinda like how Bush ignored Katrina and hoped it would go away?

Sorry, low blow. But honestly, no. I think that sexual orientation is determined genetically, but the actual enforcement of any gender roles are almost purely environmental. Women tend to be more emotional because it's expressed to them from a very early age that they're supposed to be, where as boys get the whole "boys don't cry" junk.

And I don't view it as 'melting down'. She SNIFFLED, for goodness sake. Every single candidate is running for the presidency because they truly believe that they can make things better for this country. Imagine if you were almost positive that you had the cure for cancer, and you were standing in a room yelling "look at this!" and no one was paying attention. That's how ever single candidate feels all the time. Plus, compared to how the schedule of the campaign is versus actually performing the duties of the president, there are a lot of distinctions, and in many ways, it's easier. I won't say decisions and such are easier, but campaigning to me seems to be just terrible. It's like the grown up version of middle school.

Gender roles aren't as seriously enforced anymore because the social stigma of boys crying and girls being tough isn't so violent anymore. Well, the boys crying thing is still pretty bad. But no so much the tough girls.

Sue- the way gender roles have changed in the last 100 years should be enough.

Gahhh, why do I have to have a subscription to view so many of these articles...

I'll find one and post it in a bit, I'm going to have to trudge through google scholar to find a full article it will actually let me READ.

Erin,

LOL...good heavens. What your wear is not what I'm talking about. I don't even own a dress! That was pretty good. Viva la trousers!

jasper-

I could care less what you think.

I don't believe that Obama will do much about abortion in office, just like Bush didn't do much about abortion in office. Abortion opposition needs to start as a grassroots movement. One person at a time.

You can accuse me of anything you like, only God knows my heart.

Midnite,

But he has said before that a "child should starve to death in Darfur" rather than be adopted by a LGBT couple.
*
Do you agree MK? (I really hope not)

No I don't agree, but let's ask Jasper what he meant...okay?

Jasper?

Oh no. Things are goin' to get nasty. I can sense it. Ummm, I am a sarcastic person by nature-just ask my hubby. If someone gets offended by that, I am sorry. I come here to dialog with other prolifers and to get strength and encouragement from them. There is alot of hostility to prolifers out there, even when we are doing all the things that the pcers "say" we should do. My group consist of two elderly gentlemen and two middle-aged ladies(me being one of them). We have been screamed at,called names, and had 4 cruisers with lights blazing show up just to make sure we were following the new buffer zone laws(I was so scared). I forgot-we also have cars that drive very close to us on purpose-periously so. I have been called a c*** also. It works both ways. I have seen some prochoicers be very nasty to prolifers without provocation. Of course, there are many prochoicers who are very nice people. I don't hate prochoicers,I was one for 20 years. The only thing that has changed about me is my view on abortion. I don't know what I am trying to say, but if I am supposed to just take the hostility with a smile like I do in real life, I just don't know. I don't have unlimited patience. Wish I did.:)

Here we go, this is perfect.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=yJ43_5tJGycC&oi=fnd&pg=PA123&dq=Gender+roles&ots=XlUhkdbJQB&sig=bNdKscl3e3leB3OnFTX_ut3pMjI#PPA110,M1

All about gender roles, psychology, and socialization. Shiny.

OH, oh, oh! Midnite, that was Hisman, not jasper. I remember that.

"PIP like Feminists for Life, for the same reasons you give. They tend to be less "religious" and more liberal on other things. Maybe you should check it out."

OH MOST DEFINITELY. I know a lot of people who are on the middle of the pro life issue. When I tell them that there are groups like Democrats for Life and Feminists for Life, they become more interested in joining the movement. These groups look out for everyone from conception until natural death. They don't attach themselves to religious organizations or ideologies.

""child should starve to death in Darfur" rather than be adopted by a LGBT couple."
Really? GROSS

Ahh Hisman. That was more expected. I knew jasper wasn't THAT bad.

Sorry, low blow. But honestly, no. I think that sexual orientation is determined genetically

Erin,

Interesting information if you're interested. They're actually getting closer to proving that a person's sexual orientation is linked to genetics.

In a study, (cant remember by who for the life of me) they found a way to produce homosexual rat pups. If a rat was stressed during a certain point during the thrid month of pregnancy, her pups were homosexual, without the stress the pups were heterosexual.

Also, dont know if you've ever read the study on David Reimer. He was born a boy and there was a freak accident during his circumcision (sp?). It was easier to perform surgery to make him a female instead of fixing his burned penis. He was given hormonal shots to make him a female, wore female clothes, was reinforced when he acted as a female and punished when he acted as a male. His name was changed to Brenda, and he was treated as a little girl.

David said that he always knew something was wrong and that he should have been a boy even though he looked and was treated like a female. He was attracted to females even though he thought he should like males. He claimed fearing he was a homosexual in early middle school.

At the age of 13, his parents slipped the truth, he started dressing like a boy, and quit his hormone shots. At the age of 18, he had a surgery to convert him back to a male.

He eventually married a female and had a child. Although he sunk into a deep depression and he killed himself one day.

Nature wins this battle.

"Ah, iniquity, who can understand?

The question is, does God bless this situation by evidence in His Word?

Obviously not! Adam was a man, Eve was a woman.

Never once in the Bible has a gay marriage or parenting by a gay couple been the example. Marriage is a symbol of the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. It is not to be messed with. The Holy Spirit did not impregnate Joseph with Emmanuel, although, if He wanted to He could have.

I ask my self as a father, what would I do if I was in this situation? Of course I would love my daughter and her baby, however, I would pray for the salvation of her endangered and deceived soul as she is not right with her Creator but in direct and utter rebellion towards Him. Oh the deceptio of wealth and privilege.

No, this baby is in a much worse state than a baby who is born to two impoverished Christian parents on the the plains of the Sudan for he has a much better chance of inheriting eternal life, infinitely more valuable than the temporal riches in this life.

My prayer is that this baby reject his mom's and her room mate's views on morality and embrace that of his godly grandparents.

Mr. Cheney, I feel for you.
Posted by: HisMan at May 24, 2007 11:59 AM"

Erin

*throws up*

^_^ Behold my awesome google skillz...

I'm pretty sure that one ended up on FSTDT.

ABlaura,

I think MK means well here, she is a wonderful teacher and I would trust her advice over some of my own family members. I believe she is very in-touch with the holy spirit, it flows out of her words and compassion. She is consistant in her prayer life and it shows.

Jill -

The perfect example of what I was getting at can be seen on this very thread. PIP has been very passionate and clear in explaining her views - and she is quite obviously against abortion. Yet because she supports a candidate who is pro choice (because you know, it makes sense to vote for a president based on ONE issue he can't even really control), Jasper calls her pro life stance "fraudulant".

I can only imagine the type of attitude that would be thrown my way if I called myself pro life, when my views of it are quite a bit more liberal than PIP's.

And just like I would no longer support PP because of some of the actions they've taken, I could never support any of the Pro Life organizations either - because of the examples I mentioned; protesting at people's homes and homophobia primarily.

So its not that the attitudes change my view on abortion, but they do play a HUGE role when it comes to what I would identify myself as, and whether or not I would sign my name or donate any money in support of a particular organization.

I think the major organizations on both ends have completely lost sight of actually helping people and are just having too much fun being cruel and seeing who can win an insult war, or who can find what obscure law the other one may have broken. And therefore, I cannot, at this moment, proudly support either side.

Ah! Midnite, yeah, I read that case study about David after I heard that that one Law and Order:SVU was based off him.

AB Laura,

You are a wonderful asset to this site. Please, try to understand that I was not attacking anyone in particular.

I would never ask you to compromise your values. I'm just saying that the way we present them can make the difference between being heard or causing them to bolt.

Example: My husband hasn't take out the garbage in 3 days. I'm getting really pissed. He comes home and I say:

"You are such a lousy husband! I don't know why I put up with you! You can't even do one simple task! Take out the damned garbage! You're a failure as a spouse and I'm sick of it!"

or I say:

"Okay babe, I don't know what's going on here...I know you've really been working extra hours this week, and I know that you really are a great husband, but I gotta tell you the neighbors called and asked if we're stashin' dead bodies over here? Would you mind takin' out the garbage before Family Services gets here...(kiss, hug, whack on arm)

Which one is more likely to get the garbage taken out without causing bad feelings.

In the first scenario, my husband would be so worked up trying to defend what a good husband he is and how hard he works and blah, blah, blah that we'd end up not speaking or worse. He would never "hear" me because I put him on the defensive.

In the second scenario, I have done the "sandwich"...Let him know I love him, hit him with the problem, finished up with a joke...he's not defensive and the garbage is gone. I might even get a backrub out of the deal...

Same problem, two different approaches. See?

Well, I knew it was one of them. But it wouldnt suprise me if Jasper felt the same way.

It just kills me that as the most sophisticated Country in the world, there are still people who dont want a LGBT couple to adopt a child.

I've never once heard a gay man or woman say that the "chose" to be that way.

*grins* Or you could take out the garbage and then make him do the dishes.

" Jasper calls her pro life stance "fraudulant"."

Ok sorry PIP. I just don't understand how a pro-lifer can support a candidate who supports infanticide.

Amanda, lighten up a little.

Erin:

It was a great case, the first of it's kind. Some fruit-loop trying to show that sexual orientation is ruled by nurture, not nature.

I think it is sad, that poor mans life was turned upside down and he felt the need to commit suicide. I laugh when people try to tell me that sexual orientation, and even identity can be changed by nurture and that nature has nothing to do with it.

I agree, midnite. Of who I would rather have be a parent, my best friend who just got married or our mutual gay acquaintance, I'd pick our gay acquaintance in a heartbeat. Not that I don't love my best friend, but I'm pretty sure right now she'd be a TERRIBLE mother. Josh and Randy would be FANTASTIC parents.

jasper,
I totally agree. I'm just saying that we're all not as "loving" as mk tends to be. If I think someone is ugly on the inside because they assist with abortions, so be it! If mk thinks I'm ugly on the inside for thinking that, then so be that!

It seems that she doesn't want any PC'er to ever leave because then they'll never ever have an opportunity to change...I just don't have that type of drive in me. I could care less if they left just as they could care less if I did. As I said, I don't have an "agenda"...I'm here to learn & learning I am!

B/c Jasper, abortion is not the only issue in America at the moment,

There is the war in Irag,
our HUGE debt,
our Education System
Social Security (that no one my age will ever collect)

and many other things that effect people here and now.

"But he has said before that a "child should starve to death in Darfur" rather than be adopted by a LGBT couple.
*
Do you agree MK? (I really hope not)"

I never said this MK, I don't know where it came from.

=(

I'd care, Laura.

AB:

One problem there.

If you dont change any PC's mind, then your virtually doing nothing for your cause.

You can pray and protest all you want, but if you dont (as in MK's words) guide that person to the light, you've done nothing important for the PL cause.

Jasper:

I said I got you and HisMan confused on that one. I though you said. My bad dawg...

But I believe you secretly feel that way.
_________________________________________________
Erin:

I'd chose my best friend (who is gay) to be a better parent than my friends that are parents right now. That's sad. And he's so freaking cute too! Remind me, and I'll send you a pic on facebook. He could be a model.

I see what you are saying AB Laura. I don't come here with the purpose of converting people. I come here to get to know other prolifers and learn from them. I face hostility in the real world, I don't want to have to face it on a prolife blog.

"Sue- the way gender roles have changed in the last 100 years should be enough."

I understand that the types of jobs open to women, as well as the place of motherhood in our lives, etc., has changed, but is there anything definitively showing that women's tendency to cry or to show more emotion than men results from sociocultural conditioning rather than biology (or part of our psychology that is rooted in biology)? Is there anything definitively showing the opposite. I doubt proof will come either way.

S.

Midnite, maybe AB Laura does that in the real world. She said she comes here to learn. I come here to get to know other prolifers. We aren't always "on". We are people too.

I posted a whole book that delves into the subject. If it actually interests you that much, you can read it. The sociology that I've studied suggests that gender roles are imprinted by environment from birth, starting with basic things like blue room or a pink room.

Midnite -

If I remember correctly, HisMan actually said it, and Jasper "AMEN"d it. And all of the other posters - pro choice and pro life, responded with varying levels of horror.

I should have been more clear when I brought up that example that it wasnt Jasper's exact words, but that was one of the last days I posted in here, because reading that soon after returning from Africa, and soon after my gay friend was murdered, it was just WAY too personal for me. Still is acutally - knowing people feel that way is overwhelmingly sad.

AB,

I totally agree. I'm just saying that we're all not as "loving" as mk tends to be. If I think someone is ugly on the inside because they assist with abortions, so be it! If mk thinks I'm ugly on the inside for thinking that, then so be that!

The only person on here that I can honestly say I believe is ugly inside is SoMG and I'm workin' on that.

Laura, I think you are truly beautiful inside and out. Please don't be hurt by what I said. I wasn't even directing my posts at you. You just happened to ask...

Sometimes we get off on a tangent that starts off as legitimately emotional, but then can't break the cycle.

Nobody, especially me, wants you to leave.

Would it really not bother you that someone left? Can I ask you what you are learning?

Erin,
You ARE sweet.... :)

midnite,
I'm not part of any "cause" unless I just don't know it yet. I haven't associated myself with any group at any point. I'm new to the whole "abortion" issue due to PP rearing its ugly head in Aurora. I'm not out to convert anyone because I am not at that point. I'm learning about what being pro-life actually means. So, to me...it's not "my cause"...it's just my "baby belief" at this point. I'm here to see if it evolves into something I could see myself being more proactive in. So far, no, though.

Carrie,
I hear you! TONS of hostility on the front lines! I'm still learning if I'm strong enough to "take it"....

jasper-

because Sudan, Iraq, torture, the death penalty, and health care are also life issues.

And as president he has little power over abortion reform anyway.

As I said abortion has to be a grassroots campaign. As America becomes more pro-life, so will legislation.

Carrie:

I completely agree. But I must say, most people on here are driven to switch people like me from being PC to being PL.

Then Jasper critizes PIP (who is PL) b/c of she is voting for President. He cant even be civil to people who are on his side. And these people are nicer than he is. Like you, PIP, MK, & Bethany. Y'all are nice, civil and try to at least understand our (PC) side w/o being rude.

We always end with "we'll agree to disagree", but it's those civil, polite conversations that will make someone want to switch to the PL side. Not Jasper saying (& yes he did say this) that the Government should not have taken away E. Rudolph's "choice" to bomb clinics

That's exactly what I am saying AB Laura. There is plenty of venom coming from the prochoicers on here. We have to face it in real life. Why deal with it on a prolife blog too? I don't think I have the patience that others may have.

Amanda:

Your memory is better than mine. I do vaguley remember the conversation, b/c I know I took part of it.

I dont blame you for taking a hiatus after what you have been through. I wish I had the strength to volunteer in Africa. I dont think I could emotionally handle it though. I couldnt watch the news on 9/11 or on Katrina. I get to involved and it takes a certain havoc on my soul.

As for your friend; murder is wrong, especially when it is hate driven. I can not fathom how some people think that other human beings deserve to be punished for who they fall in love with. It's horrible. And I am sorry for you. I hope who ever did it, is rotting in jail or on death row.

I come on here to understand opposing viewpoints- mostly so I can learn how to change them. ^_^ My momma said I could argue my way out of a paper bag by the time I was 2.

I'm in a good mood today. So everyone should be happy and nice to each other so it stays that way!

Now I must off into the wild blue grocery store so I can make baked ziti for dinner. Mmm, pasta!

*aways*

mk,
After the names I was called at 3051 E. New York ST., trust me...you didn't hurt me. In fact, you never did. Just wanted to clear that up.

No, it wouldn't bother me if someone left. When you're online, you really don't know who you're talking to anyway...could be total BS, and then again, maybe not. it's a crapshoot. I've seen people go in a hoot (I did myself!) only to return later. Like I said, I think that their heart will draw them back anyway. There's WAY too many personalities to miss when you're away!

As far as what I am learning....I think I'm VERY stubborn in my beliefs, and am not as tolerable as many on here are. I think things tend to get too complex when it should be simple..goes back to my stubborness in my beliefs I guess.

Sorry, I am having a bad time right now. Thanks all.

oh....
and I also learned that I'm a chicken-sh%* when it comes to expressing my thoughts....There are SOOOOOO many things that I'd LOVE to say, but don't.

AB Laura-

Did I miss something? Are you thinking about leaving us?

Also,

I do not attack people for no reason (in 3D world or on the internet).

I attack when I am provoked.

Just ask Jasper or MK (I love you MK!)

PIP,
If I'm found guilty of "hurting the cause" then yes, I'll leave in a heartbeat. The verdict is still out....

Not at all Laura! This is simply a forum to exchange ideas. I hope I did not contribute to your feeling this, and if I did, I am profoundly sorry.

PIP
You????...absolutely not....no worries!
:)

Carrie,
I'm sorry :(
Yesterday didn't help either, did it!

A pro-life person does not support a candidate who legalizes infanticide. This negates anything else that candidate may do.

No Jasper, it doesnt.

Just b/c that candidate is PL doesnt mean squat. Look at Bush, he's PL and yet abortions are still legal

"As for your friend; murder is wrong, especially when it is hate driven."

why is murder wrong midnite. ? Don't you think it should be legal in some circumstances?

Midnite -

Thankfully, where I was in Africa (Tanzania) was full of hope and improvements coming along at record pace. The distribution of mosquito nets to prevent malaria in addition to the anti-parasitics that the NTD groups (neglected tropical diseas) that I was interning with have made such a huge difference in quality of life.

But its still hard, because success with public health programs in Africa has little to do with the will of people who want to help, and everything to do with borders and politics. There were several reminders of the genocide in Darfur while I was in Tanzania, because the president (who I actually met when I was there!!!) has accepted refugees over the borders. Also, its daily news in Africa, like Britney Spears is daily news here. Its a lot harder to pretend its a world away when its within a driveable distance, and when there are pictures of childrens' corpses on the covers of every day's paper.

For those of you interested, the pictures from my trip are here:

www.amandaintanzania.shutterfly.com

click on the second album, which has 165 pictures.

I can't wait to take even more pictures in Morocco =)

Also - the two men who killed my friend were convicted of manslaughter (since it was a car that actually caused his fatal injury) as a hatecrime, and will both be in prison for quite some time. A few of the Phelps' clan showed up after the verdict to protest their conviction. Because you know, murder is okay if you murder a homosexual, and starving to death is better than living with one. Uhhhggggg.....

Exactly Midnite!

Bush did little to make abortion illegal. Presidents really don't have a lot of power in this area.

I wouldn't call him "pro-life" in every way, either- as he openly mocked a person that he signed for her death- after multiple pleas for a sentence change.

There are many aspects to a candidate that are "life" issues, and often it comes between choosing the one that supports them the most. I think that Obama will be a good leader in the aspects I mentioned. Since presidents have rarely done so much about abortion I think it'll stay that way.

People are taking the wrong approach by simply voting over abortion as a single issue. Again we have to take the movement from the bottom up.

lol I"m not sure how many times I have to say this ;)

Back, momentarily, to the topic of this thread...I don't doubt that Hitlery was disappointed and tired after Iowa, but I also think that she can and will feign anything in order to get her way, which is more power to destroy everything good and right and to promote and impose on America anything oppressive, destructive, and evil.

Amanda-

Thanks for sharing about your experiences in Africa. My in-laws spend several weeks a year in the Rwanda/Congo area, and it is indeed sobering as reminders of the genocide in THAT area are everywhere.

I'll pass over your postscript, as sarcasm was fairly oozing from it, except to say that apparently only one guy out of all the people posting actually said anything remotely akin to what you are paraphrasing. There is a long way from sexuality immorality is wrong to "hey, let's run that guy down with a car." Murder is always wrong, and human beings always have value. I'm really, really sorry for the loss of your friend.

"lol I"m not sure how many times I have to say this ;)"

Because you don't understand what the President does PIP.

1.) He nominated Judges, for Roe v wade to be overturned, we need Judges in the mold of Thomas and Roberts, etc. (Bush)

2.) He can veto legislation that is hostile towards life. (Bush)

...

"People are taking the wrong approach by simply voting over abortion as a single issue."

this is the big lie which has kept abortion legal for so many years, don't believe it people.

"He can veto legislation that is hostile towards life. (Bush)"
It has to pass through Congress..

"He nominated Judges, for Roe v wade to be overturned, we need Judges in the mold of Thomas and Roberts, etc. (Bush)"
Then how come it has never happened before with all of these previous "pro-life" presidents before?

"this is the big lie which has kept abortion legal for so many years, don't believe it people."
It hasn't worked yet and the people's single votes have done little for abortion so far, only provoked Bush to escalate war and national debt, to destroy economy, and stop health care progress. Bush's insincerity about the seriousness of war and human life in general is appalling. That is the truth.

If we convince more and more Americans to be pro-life, it encourages politicians to satisfy their demands. At this point the religious right want to get the "pro-life" vote to people who are bad for America in every other way which aligns the cause to a Republican and religious issue rather than a national one.

You, jasper, by demanding all pro-lifers to vote for someone else on one issue, are demanding people to vote against every other value and vote for someone who is right wing on everything else. Nothing will change, and the country will be in big trouble.

In general I'm calling bullsh*t on that one. This strategy is only alienating people as can be demonstrated by this blog. We need to reach across party lines here, start from the BOTTOM UP, so that more people on both sides can be more comfortable protecting the unborn.

To note, Obama has spent little time on the pro-choice issue in what I have watched. It is not his primary issue.

PIP FOR VEEP!!

PIP FOR VEEP!!

By the way, I'm heading up to Nashua after work to join in the victory celebration and *hopefully* get inside to hear his 2nd of many victory speeches. =)

PIP, the truth is that no other recent president has had to deal with war. No other president has been tasked with protecting us from another attack. To say that he is insincere about the seriousness of war and human life shows an appalling lack of thought and respect. There is no way of knowing that another president wouldn't have done the same.

Obama and every other pro-abort candidate is targeting the weakest of humanity and calling it "choice." This is not an attribute we need in a president.

Amanda, nice!

Jasper,

We've been through this time and time again.

Murder is illegal and wrong.
I do not believe that an abortion is a murder. I believe it is a killing. (HUGE difference)

Abortions are not done b/c of "hate".

"Abortions are not done b/c of "hate". "
-------------------------------------------

You're right...it's done due to selfishness.

And Selfishness is the absence of Love.

"seriousness of war and human life shows an appalling lack of thought and respect. "

His mocking about the fate of Karla Faye Tucker, and the many smirks and giggles that he does while talking about war and troops doesn't give me a lot of confidence. He keeps telling us that everything is fine, when multiple generals and troops come back and tell us that things are not, and the strategy is hazy. He cut funding for children's health care for political reasons. WOOT! He is so awesome!

"There is no way of knowing that another president wouldn't have done the same."
Obama was against the war at the start.

RSD,

Please give me an example that shows abortions are a hate crime.

Good God man...

Midnight...pls re-read my post..

"so that more people on both sides can be more comfortable protecting the unborn."

more comfortable?

"By the way, I'm heading up to Nashua after work to join in the victory celebration "

I heading up too Amanda with a group of people to break up B.Hussian Obama's victory speach.

"Obama and every other pro-abort candidate is targeting the weakest of humanity and calling it "choice." This is not an attribute we need in a president."

amen Kristen.

Pro-abortion PIP,

your comments are so filled with lies and distortion, I don't know where to start.

My belated take on Hillary. I think she is a woman with a strong sense of entitlement, she deserves the presidency, she put up with Bill and public humiliation to get it, and payment is due, period.
She should have been crowned queen bee by now and hasn't been.
Things are not going her way and I think her sadness is very genuine....but only for herself.
That's what I think makes this pathetic on her part, the self pity.
Speaking of sexism, imagine Barack Obama, John Edwards, or Mitt Romney doing the same thing. They would be laughing stocks.

Somehow I could never imagine former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher or the late Benazir Bhutto conducting themselves in this manner,or any other woman leader in this world for that matter.

My opinion, for what it is worth.

"more comfortable?"

A lot of pro-lifers make democrats uncomfortable with aligning themselves to a religious movement, which brings all of the conservative baggage with it. They need to be related to on their level.

Ohhha HAHAHAH you pulled the B. Hussein Obama thing!

HOW original and witty of you, Ann Coulter.

.... eye roll...

good luck with that.

"Pro-abortion PIP,

your comments are so filled with lies and distortion, I don't know where to start."

Then don't.

I'm gonna head off for a while, got a fun-packed day ahead ofme, I will be back quite a bit later.

Have fun, everyone.

AB,

oh....
and I also learned that I'm a chicken-sh%* when it comes to expressing my thoughts....There are SOOOOOO many things that I'd LOVE to say, but don't.

That's not being a chicken...that's being prudent...and temperate. Two virtues that we could all use a little more of.

You better not leave. In no way was that what I was suggesting.

I'm starting to feel like a Pollyanna and I'm sorry. I just realize what a tightrope we walk here.

The verdict is in and you're staying...

I adore you Laura and can't emphasize how much I didn't mean for this to get out of hand. And how I wasn't pointing at you specifically. No hard feelings?

Just want us to remember the goal. To end abortion. The means, through love and persuasion.

Jasper:

Grow up and stop attacking people who agree with you. There might not be many left....

Carrie,

What's goin' on? Why so down? Can any of us help?

*squeeeeeeeeze*
*SMOOOOOOCH*

"Somehow I could never imagine former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher or the late Benazir Bhutto conducting themselves in this manner,or any other woman leader in this world for that matter."

I could not agree with you more, Mary. Bhutto faced the threat of death constantly, at every turn, I mean, she knew she was going to be killed at some point, and yet she continued to fight. Hillary is a little over tired and has fer feelings hurt. Bhutto never let her enemies see her weaknesses, not even a fleeting glance, and yet Hillary is whining away before the FIRST primary?

Certainly NOT the kind of woman I'd want to be the first female president.

"HOW original and witty of you, Ann Coulter."

Amanda, I'm glad your reading Ann Coulter, you might learn something.

Sure!

Like how to be more xenophobic, homophobic, bitter, hateful, pathetic, sardonic, and irrelevent?

Like how to manage to not be taken seriously by ANYONE with an education and purpose in life?

Like how to make sure I alienate EVERYONE in the public eye for my own self-serving, narcissitic gain?

Like how to not own ANY article of clothing other than a black cocktail dress?

Like how to not give a crap about ANYONE or ANYTHING as long as I sell books?

Oh yes Jasper, those are all things I strive for in my life...

Nope... I could never be as hateful and veneom spewing as she is, not even towards you.

Amanda,
Tell us how you really feel about Ann Coulter...

PIP, I know of Bush upholding the execution of Karla Faye Tucker. I have never heard of him mocking her/it in anyway. I don't agree with capital punishment but Midnite (I think, or was it Erin or both? I apologize if I'm wrong...) believes that CP is justified.

He laughs and jokes with the troops to raise moral but I follow him relatively closely and he's not joking about the people who have lost their lives. I don't know where you're getting this from.

There are generals saying the war is going well now and the surge has helped. Are they wrong because you say they are?

Again, it's arrogant for ANYONE to say they can do better without having walked the proverbial mile...

And as for Obama being against the war from the beginning. He wasn't in a position to say one way or the other. At the time of the vote to go to war he was an Illinois State Senator (I live in Illinois) so when hearts and minds changed about the war it was easy for him to say "I've been against it all along." There were 77 "Yea" votes, don't be so sure he wouldn't have been one of them.

Oops! should read "...raise morale..."

Nope... I could never be as hateful and veneom spewing as she is, not even towards you.

Posted by: Amanda at January 8, 2008 4:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've always wondered why the Conservatives preach "family values," yet their icons are women like Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham and Condaleeza Rice - all of them single and childless.

Jasper said:
Pro-abortion PIP,

your comments are so filled with lies and distortion, I don't know where to start."

________________________________________________

Jasper,

Would you mind expanding on this? What are the lies and distortions? PIP is making a lot of sense to me.

Thanks!
Sam

Samantha, I believe that Jasper is talking about the way PIP is representing Bush. Saying he mocks executions, laughs about soldiers losing their lives, etc...

I didn't agree with A LOT of what Carter did but I wasn't president. I believe that he did the best he was able with what he had and thought was right. It makes me crazy when people pontificate about how horrible a president is when they have so little knowledge about what each president is faced with in terms of the decisions that need to be made.

Kristen,
*round of applause*
Thank you! I feel the same way. I am absolutely sure, from the bottom of my heart, that nobody knows the "big picture" except for the president. There are so many issues that are not available to the public, that their "president bashing" makes absolutely no sense to me. When they know the "big picture", I'll listen.

On another note, how on earth do we expect our children to respect adults and those in authority when so many adults don't and do it publically for them to see and imitate. Baffles me...

Quickly:

"Saying he mocks executions, laughs about soldiers losing their lives, etc..."

According to Tucker Carlson:
"In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them", he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/the-most-inappropriate-bu_b_78357.html

Apparently Bush signed off on these executions despite pleas to the contrary, it makes sense to me that he is disrespectful of their fate.

Thanks samantha, it's nice to see another person that agrees with me on the proper approach.

Whats funny is the person who asked the question has decided to vote for Obama. I just think its kinda funny.

Kristen, Laura, great! So, if Obama or Clinton wins the presidency this November, you'll show them plenty of respect, I'm sure!

PIP, does he have a tape of the interview? Anyone can say something or swing the comment their way, its called spin.

I remember very well the pleas for Karla Faye Tucker. I would have liked for him to stay the execution. He felt that the law of the state should be upheld and the verdict of the jury carried out.

Every president and governor is in a catch-22 situation. You can't please everyone; you do the best you can.

Erin, absolutely! I respect the office more than the individual and you will never hear me criticizing the president whoever he/she may be.

Yes, I hope it's a pro-life president but either way they will be in my daily prayers.

You know, I was seriously not going to post today, but I feel compelled to speak up for Carrie, ABL, jasper, myself, et al. Regarding the “Amanda bashing” that went on yesterday, I would seriously like to point out that Amanda showed up with an axe to grind and started way-laying everyone in sight. Of all the responses to her tirade by myself, ABL and I think Kristen…not ONE was snippy or rude. She however, was OBVIOUSLY pissed off….and yet we are accused of bashing her….

Mk, I think there is certainly a double standard here. I agree with ABL and Carrie…we aren’t here to recruit new converts. We are here to feel out our dedication and beliefs and commiserate with other PL’ers while we learn new facts and resources. Somehow that has also turned out to mean that we are to patiently subjugate ourselves to the vitriol, sarcasm, intolerance and baiting that Laura and others come here to dish out. But those same parties are the first to cry “foul” when they aren’t responded to with kid gloves. And now you jump in and second the motion that we are bashing and sniping. Well, I can see where ABL might feel like leaving. After yesterday and now your response to it I actually wonder myself if this is a good forum to stick with. I get plenty of animosity in my face on the sidewalk….I have PC folks I can have civil debates with, but I come here to commiserate and learn and I have to endure Laura and others doing nothing but baiting and being totally tasteless and rude.

Now, with that said, yes, I do enjoy discussions with Rae, PIP and others who seem to genuinely come here for mutual cross-pollination. But when Laura is clearly crossing the line you reprimand us and punt Laura back to Jill. I don’t understand the point of continuing to come back then. If this is some kind of exclusive club where you are only allowed to have a certain style (if you are on the PL side…PC can do anything they want) or you are run out then fine…but I see all kinds of styles on the sidewalk….most I would never use, but all are effective.

My first try at this board the Queen Bee herself taught me that anyone who comes here is fair game REGARDLESS of your stance. I stepped away to watch and learn. What I learned was this was a good forum to sharpen your articulation on the subject…so with a prayer and a little more courage to put a little more of my personality out there I came back. Now it seems I don’t fit the mold of a “good Christian”….and I have yet to see where anything I said was totally out of line in the context of whatever I was replying to at the time.

Only my opinion.

Carry on.

PS—I have yet to see anything from jasper that can honestly and critically be called “homophobic”….he has specific beliefs on homosexuality, obviously…but like the word “rape” I think “homophobic” gets thrown around a whole lot just because you don’t like someone’s views on the subject....just because he's wrong about the Patriots does not make him a homophobe.

"Would you mind expanding on this? What are the lies and distortions? PIP is making a lot of sense to me."

Samatha, see: Posted by: Kristen at January 8, 2008 4:36 PM

Thanks Hooves!

Back atcha!

*wink*

Well said Hooves. I couldn't agree with you more.

Carrie,

LikeI said, I wasn't going to post...but I didn't like seeing my buddies ganged up on.

I've talked to a lot of people who are really against him. I cannot see him (Obama) or Hillary winning.

Heather, wanna put some money on it? ; )

Doug

Hooves, I am done posting but I couldn't resist commenting one last time. Some habits are hard to break.:) I totally agree with your double-standard point and that's why I am done. Good luck in the future. I am glad you came back and gave it a try.

You know, I was seriously not going to post today, but I feel compelled to speak up for Carrie, ABL, jasper, myself, et al. Regarding the “Amanda bashing” that went on yesterday, I would seriously like to point out that Amanda showed up with an axe to grind and started way-laying everyone in sight.

Hooves, the greatest truth here is that one generally reaps as they sow.

Thank you Hooves!!! You explained it much better than I ever could!

Bummer Carrie...but I totally get it. Do me a favor if possible and get my email from the moderater, OK?? I think you and I should be email pals because of our sidewalk experiences and I don't want to lose touch with you!! Whoever is moderating...please see that Carrie gets my email if possible.

Doug--That's the first time I've totally understood something you said!! Thanks! ;)

As of now (8:30 PM) Hillary is ahead in New Hampshire, 39% to 37% (Obama).

Will do AB Laura.:)

PS Doug_

Thanks for not holding a Yes or No grudge!!

*hug*

Carrie...that was me that wants you to email!!

Hooves

Carrie,
I'm going to miss you....I may be right behind you, though.

One question for mk...I get that you want to keep PC'ers on this board to "convert" them, but when you put fellow pro-lifers down, in your "eloquent way", to keep "Laura" and others happy, you'll loose PL'ers, too. I was pretty sure when I first came here that this was a PL site...where PL'ers could share ideas amongst themselves. Lately, it seems that many PL'ers are here, then gone. This site seems to be attracting more & more PC'ers by the day. Which is fine for the "convert agenda", but I really haven't seen anyone "switch sides" since I've been here. They just seem to be getting nastier w/PL'ers. To me, at least, that's their agenda...seek & destroy. It's working. Good job, guys! Kudos to your twisted hatred!

So, mk, my question to you is this: do YOU want this site to be a forum for PC'ers for you to convert, or a site for PL'ers to share ideas & thoughts? Lately, you've been so far up Laura's ..... that my head has been spinning...now Amanda???

Last rant, I promise....do you really think that I (we) didn't know who you were directing the cyber-slap to?

Hooves,
BTW...I adore your personality..you are one of the only one's here that makes me ROFLMAOSSFRL!

ABL--

I think you did just fine. Very well said.

Honestly if you leave also I'll probably leave too. Loosing Carrie is enough of a blow...please get my email too if the moderater can give it to you. I don't want to lose touch with a new pal!

Where did MK "put down another PL"?

Did I miss something today?

And just so you know, Jasper can be very rude, snippy and just plain out hateful to us PC's too.

For example. He knew that the police officer that was killed by Rudolph's bomb in B'ham was a very close friend of my family. He then proceeded to tell me that the Government did not have the right to take away his "choice" to bomb clinics.

As for the whole homophobic thing:
HisMan orginally said that "a child would be better off to die of starvation in Darfur than be adopted by a LGBT couple". Jasper then replied with a remark along the lines of "ditto" or "Amen". Which basically means that he agrees with the statement.

He is at fault too.
------------------------
Hooves & Laura

Even though we dont agree on the Abortion debate, I really like y'all. I've had many a civil conversations with each of y'all seperately. Granted, most of the time the end with "we'll agree to disagree", I enjoy the debates. People on here have opened me to a new line of thinking. I hope I've maybe had the same impact on someone.

Now then, Can't we all just GET along?

Sorry, Hooves. Of course, I will make sure you get my email. I'll email Jasper and ask him to send you my email.

Carrie, AbLaura, Hooves,

please don't leave for too long ...you've added some great input to this blog.

MK has a great heart and is a good person. I fully understand her point and I understand yours (mine) as well.

Which mod, Hooves???

I send you guys each others email if you want....

Thanks jasper....coming your way! Carrie & Hooves can both have mine....

Thanks, Jasper. You can send Hooves my email.

Jasper, you can send AB Laura my email also.

Carrie,
Two minutes??? You had to think about it that long???
LOL
(i'm just teasing!)

why why WHY is Clinton ahead of Obama?!

grrr

God, I just love when I am ignored by people. I am going to bed.

Goodnight Midnite, I love you!

Dan- none of the votes are in from any of the colleges yet, and Obama has a massive following among those young voters. Give it some time.

"I posted a whole book that delves into the subject. If it actually interests you that much, you can read it. The sociology that I've studied suggests that gender roles are imprinted by environment from birth, starting with basic things like blue room or a pink room."

Erin-

Appreciate you finding a link. Actually, it does interest me - I have a PhD in cultural anthropology, and I've taught gender-related courses in sociology and anthropology at several colleges. Nonetheless, in all my reading, I still haven't seen anything definitive on either side, proving that gender roles (or rather, the psychology of men vs. the psychology of women) is entirely environmentally produced OR entirely hard-wired. Anyway, I will take a look at the link you provided.

S.

Erin, so I noticed.

Let's hope those college towns will boost him up enough to win it.

Midnite,

I want an update. The last I heard you sent a certain person packing.

Hooves, Carrie, ABL --

Please don't run off....

Well, so much for bed. My damn county is under a tornado warning.

AB:
I love ya too

Mary:
Yes, he was sent along his merry way. Although, we tried to work things out and now we're up shit creek again w/o a paddle. If all else fails, he did give me an expensive coffee/latte/espreso maker for Christmas. So I guess I came out for the better....

Oh well. Anyone heard from Bethany in a while?

Midnite,

Thank you for the update. Yes you definitely came out for the better. However, I am standing here with my arms folded and tapping my foot and keeping an eye on things. You know I love you too Midnite.

awwwww, thanks Mary. You know I got nothing but love for you as well.
::blushes::

How is everything going with you?

Yep, Clinton wins NH.

Yea, I seen that SoMG. It's too bad McCain won too. We have yet to get into the conservative states yet, where the Republican nominee will be decided.

Midnite,

Very well thank you. Life is pretty status quo and I am very grateful for that.
We had a wonderful holiday and have finally got everything put away. I feel like I just put everything up.
Its always good to hear from you so please visit as often as possible.

Jasper, who do you think the GOP will nominate?

Who do you think will win?

Just curious.

SoMG,

I believe it will Mitt Romney.

You know, I tend to agree. Romney's the most competent-appearing of them.

I don't think he can beat Hillary though.

You know, you guys have totally attacked me and accused me of "ganging" up on you, when the truth is, I have spoken alone. And I also find it odd that you all got defensive when you don't even know that I had you or anyone specific in mind.

Hooves, I never mentioned your name.
ABLaura, I never mentioned your name.
Carrie, I never mentioned your name.
Jasper, I never mentioned your name.

And yet every one of you has reacted as if I picked you out specifically.

I obviously botched this up and like Hillary, I think I'll go have a good cry.

Sorry I upset you all. As I said, this is not my site. For a year now, it has gone a certain way, and if that changes, it's not my call...

Again, I was trying to make peace...not war. I think I'm going to take a break for awhile. Try a "Heather"...

Jill, she's all yours...

And yet every one of you has reacted as if I picked you out specifically.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You never picked-out nor picked-on ANYBODY!

There are people taking this verbal jousting WAY too seriously, and creating a victimhood status over events that never occured.

(I deal with enough drama queens in real life. Drama queens and POO!)

If you haven't adopted a baby you cannot be pro life. I believe in mandatory adoption for all those who don't believe that women can make decisions without government intrusion.

As to Clinton's tears, she won in NH - they must have worked! Personally I'm more in the Edwards camp, but that doesn't seem to be working out at the moment.

If you haven't adopted a baby you cannot be pro life. I believe in mandatory adoption for all those who don't believe that women can make decisions without government intrusion.

Posted by: Ray at January 9, 2008 7:14 AM

Ray, GREAT idea! But how about I let all the people on the waiting lists to adopt go first. I'd be MORE than happy to add to my crew after I let someone who is unable to have their own adopt as many as they wish.

Ray:

If you haven't adopted a baby you cannot be pro life. I believe in mandatory adoption for all those who don't believe that women can make decisions without government intrusion.

Then I suppose on the flip side of that coin it would mean you can't be against children suffering in Africa unless you have adopted children from Africa. Or you can't be against rape unless you have personally defended a victimized woman in court, or taken some kind of action to prevent rape from happening to other individuals. Or you can't be against domestic abuse unless you have personally intervened in a domestic situation and prevented harm from the victim, or you can't be against people starving to death, unless you personally feed, shelter, and clothe each one... There is any number of possibilities of how this could go...

Laura,

Thanks babe. I really appreciate it. I understand that some of us are new to this...

A lot of the problems comes from having cross purposes.

Almost a year ago, Bethany, Val and I came to this site at the same time. It was a new site and almost miraculously, at the same time that Jill decided to "step it up a notch", we all stumbled upon her site. Bethany because she had had the miscarriage, Val accidentally, and me from the generations for life site...

We immediately agreed that our best course of action was to make this a site that spoke to the hearts and minds of the other side with love, patience and prayer.

Within 2 months PIP and SamanthaT, both pro choicers when they came, had conversions and have continued to post as prolifers since.

A few months later Rae followed suit.

Midnite changed her stance to abortion before 3 months and preferably for serious cases like rape or death of the mother.

Amanda just came back and said she considered changing but hates the way the prolife side presents itself.

I think these are all very revealing about the way we chose to approach this site.

In order to do this, we have had to get to know each and every pro choice person that comes to the board, evaluate the best approach and meet them on their side of the street.

You know that one of the reasons you and I get along is because I recognize much good in you. I've earned your respect because I didn't play the victim to your sarcasm. I met it head on, gave back as good as I got, and never, ever, took it too seriously.

I listened to Rae, and Midnite, Erin and Leah, Alyssa and Amanda...I heard what they said on the surface and what they said beneath the surface. I cared about more than just their stance on abortion. I cared about them.

Whether or not they convert is really still to be seen, but I know that I (and Bethany, Val, Mary and others) have put forth a face of prolife that
that few prochoicers have seen before. One of compassion, love, and tenderness. I have never compromised what I believe, but have not resorted to making the "other side" feel small, or inhuman.

I have never lost site of the fact that you and all the other prochoicers here are just people, same as me, and trying to do the best you can in this life.

I'm sick that it has taken this turn. I'm not telling you these things to toot my own horn, cuz I couldn't care less what people think of me, but I care deeply about the integrity of this site and the venue it provides to reach out. So please, don't think I'm asking for any congratulations or applause...

I'm just trying to show that we have had results, and now we don't...Amanda said it perfectly. She wants to run screaming from us. You've said the same things...but I don't think you guys get heard by everyone because the defenses go up. For all your sarcasm, you make good points. We do get on our high horses, we do belittle those that don't believe as we do and we do act as though we are better than those who don't believe as we do. But we're wrong. Our beliefs may be better, but we as humans? As John McDonell put it...There but for the grace of God, go I...

I don't know if what's been broken can be fixed. I'll stick around and read posts, but like I said, I think I need to step back for awhile...

I really, really appreciate your input girl. Thanks.

I hope that no one will really be leaving the site! I really enjoy having you all here, even Hal.
Please stay.

I cross-posted this here and on the college vacation thread over an hour ago and don't know where it went. I think I deleted myself. Anyway, again:

I've been a little out of the loop the last 2 days, sorry. 2 wakes and a trip to Chicago.

MK tells me some pro-lifers are riled by her general reminder not to provoke. She and I had discussed the fact Monday that one pro-lifer on this site habitually does that (provokes without being provoked), and we thought issuing a general appeal would do the trick. I've asked MK to email that person directly.

To those upset, please don't leave. We've enjoyed, learned, and been encouraged by your posts.

I agree some pro-aborts here can hurl low blows, and in that case we all can certainly respond, debate, and refute. I also appreciate when we turn the other cheek. I take what they say in stride. I would rather we talk, even if at some points we are treated uncivilly, than not talk. That's why we rarely delete.

So please stay. I would be very sorry to see any of you go. And I'm sorry, MK, that you took heat because I wasn't here to help.

Jill,

Maybe to be even more civil (just a suggestion here), stop calling us Pro-Aborts...

what's wrong with being called pro-abort if it's true?

Wow. I missed a lot yesterday. I hope the pro-lifers don't leave. My 2 cents: Laura and Amanda don't need any special treatment. They need to be held accountable for the things they say.

Amanda wants to run screaming from us? Why? She attacked first.

Hey guys, why is my name mentioned in MK's post? I was scrolling again, and I just caught it. Wassup? Asking in a friendly tone:]

Jill and mk…

I think you totally missed the point that ABL, Carrie and myself were trying to make. We’re not upset by the cyber slap. We are upset that the pro-aborts who are vindictive and cruel are given a pass while we are reminded to play nice. It’s a double standard and after a while it gets really old….I firmly believe that if Laura and others who continually resort to cruel sarcasm are held to the same standards that we are, we would all return. And I personally don’t appreciate their tactics being down played and glossed over. Until that happens we are through being insulted. It’s as simple as that. No hard feelings. I noticed the post-abortive woman who showed up on Zoe’s thread (can’t remember her name) hasn’t been back after the flat out vicious assault she was subjected to. …is that in keeping with the loving, receptive environment you are trying to foster here?

I hear what you are saying ladies…but I think you’ve got your fingers in your ears on this one. You can walk the line but that means issuing “reminders” to BOTH sides of the equation….and not tolerating anything less than civility from everyone and that’s not what’s happened here.

Hooves,

Permission granted to let loose with both barrels on the College Break post...Texas Red would be my "exception to the rule"...lol.

mk--sorry, but I see no humor in that. TR should be blacklisted, not responded to. Don't act so suprised that your warriors jumped ship....that's exactly the double standard I was talking about. If you want this site civil (JILL) than TR should be warned and booted...not tolerated and us now allowed to engage her. That's twisted thinking...and using us.

(I deal with enough drama queens in real life. Drama queens and POO!)

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 9, 2008 7:00 AM--------- Laura, in "real life" you ARE a drama queen.

mk said,(to Amanda)
"I agree that a lot of finger pointing goes on in the pro life movement and it concerns me. The other day on the thread where you were getting beat up, I find myself siding over and over with you and Laura.

If it doesn't come from a place of love, and compassion, then it shouldn't come.

Screaming, accusing, bitter sarcastic comments do NOTHING to further our cause."

-----
Heather, my initial peeve started with this....
If you read the conversation, you'll understand, I think....

Permission granted to let loose with both barrels on the College Break post...Texas Red would be my "exception to the rule"...lol.

Posted by: mk at January 9, 2008 10:40 AM

---------
not looking to convert TR? Who's "off limits" in your "rules"?

Not being snitty, mk, just really need to know the rules to this game to see if I want to keep playing...fyi, it's getting more confusing by the minute!

Something just occurred to me. Mk refers to the vindictive PC’ers as guests. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but aren’t we ALL guests? And unless you were raised by wolves you know that you don’t honor your hostess by walking in and mauling her OTHER guests. And those other guests would expect that the hostess wouldn’t tolerate them being mauled any more than she would tolerate them ganging up any other guest there. That’s what’s at stake here….us PL newbies are being left to twist in the wind.

And now we’re being told it’s ok to UNLOAD on someone who’s being vicious. The point is WE’RE NOT HERE TO UNLOAD….I honestly can’t see why nobody is understanding this!!

Hooves, I hear you. You believe MK has unfairly called pro-lifers out. I agree there is likely a double standard, encouraging our side to rise above the crap and try for our part to maintain civility.

Most on the other side do civilly debate. A few don't. Consider that their basis for being here is to argue in favor of killing babies, so maintaining decorum is likely not first on their minds.

My goal is not to win arguments but win them over. So when they attack me - on much more than a daily basis - I usually ignore it and respond on a factual basis.

That's all I can say. I'm not perfect. I get snippy now and again. But I'm most interested in having a discussion any way that I can.

Hey guys, I have to make an important phone call. Stay tuned for my response.

Well...that answers my question. Which was the same as Carrie's and ABL's. This site is about conversion, not commiserating. I don't appreciate double standards and you have confirmed that in order to participate we have to endure "a few" bad apples that you refuse to "alienate" by telling them to shape up or lose the privilege of joining the party. I think that’s pretty sad given your passion for this topic. I just got an email from Carrie and you have lost her over just this problem. And now, yes, me too because you have explained that it’s NOT really about keeping a common standard of civility….it’s about converting, and enduring even the most repugnant posters. If you look with a critical eye, it’s actually about half of the regulars (PC) that are civil here...not just a few.

Good luck with the blog. If any other disenfranchised PL’ers would like me email, please feel free to forward it to them.

Thanks anyway….it was worth a try, and I did end up with a few “pen pals” out of it too!

Clarrification: not just a few who are bad apples....it's actually more like half.

Hooves, it's about conversation, which includes commiserating, of course.

I'm really sorry to see you go. I enjoyed your comments, as I did ABL and Carrie's.

Okay, Laura referred to Terri Schiavo as "a breathing pot roast." She has referred to abortions as "crotch-goop." She has attacked me personally on several occasions. She's accused me of being on welfare, and she told me that my son is a "bastard child." adding "You had an obligation to abort him." Note: All of those Deuteronomy posts about "bastards" are directed at me. She's also stated that I am a liar who resides in "fantasy land." She laughs at women who experience post abortive pain. Don't tell any stories of truth. She'll label you a liar. Here's what I have to say: I can't stand that pig.

That still doesn't explain the lack of holding the other side to the same standards of civility Jill.

heather...stop it. You are being snippy and rude. The only acceptable response to Laura et al is:

Jesus loves you.

The end.

Bye all...see you in email.

Hooves, we do hold the other side accountable. Moderators have told them to knock it off. We have deleted their posts from time to time, mostly SOMG's. A few became angry some months back and left in a huff because they said we were censoring them.

and again...

mk said,(to Amanda)
"I agree that a lot of finger pointing goes on in the pro life movement and it concerns me. The other day on the thread where you were getting beat up, I find myself siding over and over with you and Laura.

If it doesn't come from a place of love, and compassion, then it shouldn't come.

Screaming, accusing, bitter sarcastic comments do NOTHING to further our cause."

..............

I'm still lacking to see where there was Screaming, accusing, bitter sarcastic comments coming from one of the 3 PL'ers that were responding to Amanda or Laura for that matter...

heather,
get my e-mail from jasper, ok?

Feelings on Amanda: She's not too bad, but she needs to realize that she can't just toss it out there, and then say "I can't believe the nerve of you pro lifers."....Well, did you expect us to agree with you?

Forget it ABL....our comments are falling on deaf ears. I have to go meet my mom for lunch...will respond to your email as soon as I get back, but you won't see me here anymore.

Good luck!

okay girls!! Will do.

Hooves, AB, Carrie etal,

See now, there is always an exception to the rule...

This would be the time to let loose with the sarcasm and vitriol...there are few people that seem hopeless to me...but TR qualifies..

Have a ball.

Posted by: mk at January 9, 2008 10:35 AM

--------

Jill,
see, here's the problem..if mk is trying to "convert someone", and we intrude on her eloquent style of love by her standards, we get cyber-slapped. If it's not someone she's trying to "convert" we can "have at it" by her standards...what's up with that? However, in the meantime, we get hate spewed at us & remain as calm & collective as possible (we are human, you know) and no one says but boo.

Please explain this to me, cuz I'd really am thoroughly confusd.

ABL, I believe MK was trying to show an example of a pro-abort attack worthy of a terse response.

I'm sorry. This entire matter has taken up too much of everyone's energies.

Can we please give each other a break here and move on? MK is taking 2 days off. I'm sorry this matter upset her as much as it upset you. She was just trying to make the site a better place to converse. Her efforts weren't received well, and she has said she may not have explained what she meant as best as could be explained.

So can we just let this go and carry on?

Laura, Hooves, et all, you're right. It has been a little one sided. I have been guilty of being more harsh with pro-lifers myself, and I'm sorry for that.

I don't think that MK, nor anyone here, meant it to be that way. Even though I can understand where you're coming from, 100 percent.

We do try to be more lenient towards pro-abortion supporters partially because when they post their hateful posts, they make their own side look bad, and make others look at them and wonder why they're on that side in the first place.

I have tried rebuking many people on that side over the last year, and I have threatened to ban a few. The problem though, is that this blog system is not set up to be able to ban people, where they can't come back with another name. Every time I banned them, they could easily get back on, and they would, just to spite me. I had to go in and delete their posts, one by one, and it was extremely difficult to do that, especially when they stay up late, and I don't.

If it were up to me, personally, Sally, Laura, and TR would be gone. No questions asked. SOMG too.

But since it isn't, I just put up with them, because I feel that there is no amount of rebuke that will settle them down...in fact, rebuke seems to make them WANT to be nastier, and post more. I hate that, but I don't know what else to do. Jill, I, and MK are all at a loss for how to handle this situation.

you'll notice I do sometimes pro-lifers when I see something that is rude ....but I will many times ignore over and over the posts that Sally and Laura make. Not because I don't hate the posts and wish they were gone, but because there is really nothing I can do. I'm really sorry I don't do more with abortion supporters posts. I have deleted many of Sally's posts, and many, many, many of SOMGS. I have on occasion deleted Laura's too.

That being said, I really, REALLY hope that there is some way to patch this whole situation up. I didn't even know this whole conversation was going on until I was told today. I have no idea what to say really because I completely understand your position and I understand MK's as well.

I think that MK feels as helpless as I do about the people like TR, Sally, and Laura, and simply tolerate their words because we have to. MK feels terrible about hurting you and has expressed to me her feelings in an email. She honestly did not mean to make you feel bad, or to make you feel like you were doing anything wrong. I believe that she was seeking to make Amanda feel better about us but didn't realize it was going to anger anyone... She is very torn up about it. She said she wishes she hadn't said anything at all. Please don't leave. Hooves in Maw, you have only been here for a little while, but I LOVE having you here. You are SUCH an asset to this blog!
Laura, Carrie, Jasper etc I feel the same way about you all too...please forgive us for having made you feel this way, and please give us a chance to do better.

Bethany, thank you for the post. I really hope that the Pro-lifers will reconsider. Please stay....ALL of you! You are needed. Bethany, that does help to clear some things up.

Hi Bethany,

I agree. I understand what MK was trying to say and I hope Carrie, Hooves and Ab Laura will stay and have told them that. I believe this is a minor issue and we shouldn't let it divide us.

Carrie, Hooves, ABLaura,

MK is very nice person and I hate to see her get that upset over this, please reconsider, it's not that big of a deal.

Hi gang,

"
jasper,
I totally agree. I'm just saying that we're all not as "loving" as mk tends to be. If I think someone is ugly on the inside because they assist with abortions, so be it! If mk thinks I'm ugly on the inside for thinking that, then so be that!

It seems that she doesn't want any PC'er to ever leave because then they'll never ever have an opportunity to change...I just don't have that type of drive in me. I could care less if they left just as they could care less if I did. As I said, I don't have an "agenda"...I'm here to learn & learning I am!
Posted by: AB Laura at January 8, 2008 1:34 PM"
.............

This is going to be one of the most unusual posts I have ever written ... BEWARE!!!! I have a rather unique take on this site because I am one of the oldest people here, if not THE oldest @10 years on MK and Doug). I have been for decades a PL'er (even one decade before anyone was tagged as PL). It might be time for me to move-on, but you guyd are quiting before-barely-beginning because you are discouraged. Guess its time to take out my violin and have a big pity party!

I was also BEFORE MK, bethany, HisMan and BEFORE any PC here. I am up to my ears n PL information to share it only with the choir is really silly. I have learned that I too MUST learn ... it's a part of living. And quite frankly even though the choir are very nice folks ... at times, they are SO boring and predictable.

I was so happy when MK. Bethany, Hisman,Jasper and Heather; etc. came on this site to help Jill and we few PL. MK seems to have gotten into a very unusual nietche on this site. She speaks so eloquently that my heart throbs when she posts. Ah, her work is so important, we all MUST .... just help OK? There are far too many lives at stake ... both PC AND PL! (We all learn .... until the day we die we are learning to love) ... and we will spend eternity loving .... we'd better get used to it. And for Christians. there is no 'enough'. (A time-out is fine!)

Hooves (aka Theresa), ABL. Carrie you guys are really super. You have top notch intellects + a wonderful writing styles, and along with Elizabeth make a very formidable team. You people are not perfect ... few are (very, very few)! And only time will teach you that in Jesus weakness is strength. When discouraged remember this is His war ... it is not mine.

PEACE

Good posts Bethany and John. I am not giving up the fight John. I just don't want to fight on two fronts. I still intend to be very active in local prolife activities. I just won't be fighting here.

Carrie, can I get your e-mail address too?

Yes Heather.

Thank you.

Good posts Bethany and John. I am not giving up the fight John. I just don't want to fight on two fronts. I still intend to be very active in local prolife activities. I just won't be fighting here.
Posted by: Carrie at January 9, 2008 1:37 PM

Ditto

A phrase popped into my head on the way to meet my mom that I think sums this whole thing up for me.

“Teacher’s Pets”

Hooves-in-maw, why won't you accept our apologies? I don't understand.

Bethany,

It's not about accepting apologies. In my view, an apology isn't even warrented yet because our point has not even been addressed with anything more than a "Yes, we see your point BUT..."

Don't you understand that mk isn't the only one upset here? Don't you understand you've got three new warriors who WANT to make a difference, but are being told that we are to shut up and take the abuse of a select few who seem to be favorites without rebuttle or be labled snippy and rude? And we are also being told we are somehow supposed to DEVINE when it's ok to fire back? (And if we guess wrong we are snippy and rude...) Don't you understand that we are NOT asking for special treatment....we are asking to BE TREATED THE SAME....I have YET to see ONE reasonable explination as to our DIRECT quotes from Laura and why she is CONSTANTLY not only given a pass on her vitriol, but DEFENDED by mk? Do you think I'm HAPPY about this turn of events?? NO!! I would RATHER be seeing Laura, and the other rabids to notch it down and stay civil. Not happening. How can you guys POSSIBLY be suprised we are disgusted by this? How can you POSSIBLY think we are over reacting?? I am so, so, so sick of the "yes, we hear you, but..." that I can't help but be left with the impression that this is a club for those exclusive few "good Christians" and their pet villans. Sorry. So far none of the three of us involved in this stand have been given anything but lip service. So please stop acting suprised and PLEASE stop acting like we are trying to be difficult. We are only, and have only been asking for the "other side" to be reminded to clean it up as well....and that STILL hasn't happened....this whole thing has turned out to be way more than it needed to only because Jill and mk want to defend Laura et al without ever calling her/et al to the same carpet we were brought to. Then the double standard is defended....and you "don't understand" why I'm upset....

I know, I know..."yes, but..."

Did you even read my post, Hooves in maw? I didn't say "yes but".

Bethany...forgive me, yes I know you didn't use the exact phrase "yes but". My point stands that I think we three feel like the sacrificial lambs on the alter of politeness. I do understand the points you made about the policing difficulties. And a simple statement from Jill or mk directed to those select rabids who are notoriously mean would have done the trick. And that statement is not only not forthcomming, we have been told basically that it's never going to happen. That was my point. Sorry if you took it as a deliberate misquote of you...not my intent.

And for the record Bethany, you ARE one of my favorite posters here. Please don't think I'm upset with you...I'm not.

Well, I will personally make a point to rebuke the other side more often, Hooves in Maw.

Thanks Hooves in Maw...I just hate to see all of this strife among friends.

Hooves- I personally think the biggest difference in how we treat each other is that when the PLers want to insult someone, they make a broad generalization about every choicer. AB Laura says that people who have and don't regret, stand by, or help with abortions are evil/ugly people. By that generalization, she insults every one of us. Maybe Sally and Laura's insults and jabs are more pointed...but there are plenty times where people say things that can hurt my feelings. Laura, for example, said something along the lines of people who have had abortions being nasty or bad or something, and I piped up to say that I was a pretty nice person in spite of having an abortion. Her answer was that people could change. So, apparently just because she vaguely knows me, it makes me different from any other pro-choicer. It's frustrating for us as well, you see?

Erin,

I appreciate your post, but you have misunderstood me...this isn't about anyone hurting my feelings. No frontal assult here has EVER hurt my feelings...sticks and stones. This is about the double standard that Jill, mk, et al have admitted exists. Further it's about the fact that I/we simply are tired of being held to a different standard. That's all...not about hurt feelings. Never was.

Cry me a river, Hillary.

How can a candidate who claims to have been tried, tested and proven, resort to girly emotional drama to win sympathy votes? Shame indeed, shame indeed.

Wordtodawise

I will kick you in the FACE.

Girly that, ya jerk.

I will kick you in the FACE.

Girly that, ya jerk.

Posted by: Erin at January 9, 2008 4:02 PM

Was that aimed at me? I'm confused.

Nevermind...I see that was aimed at word...I guess you were making your point about PC'ers being more pointed in their insults.

Actually, I was being serious. Gender stereotypes like that PISS ME OFF.

Oh Erin!

FYI....

Amanda,
You brought up the whole "having respect for yourself, thing"...which has everything to do with Heather's comments to you.
BTW, if you worked at an abortion clinic, I think you're pretty ugly, too (on the inside)!
Posted by: AB Laura at January 4, 2008 2:12 PM

Kind people don't have abortions.
Posted by: AB Laura at January 4, 2008 3:10 PM

*waves at Laura* I'm pretty much a sweetheart.
Posted by: Erin at January 4, 2008 3:23 PM

*waves back @ Erin*
I know....people can change!
Posted by: AB Laura at January 4, 2008 3:26 PM

There we go, thank you.

"Kind people don't have abortions"

Laura says that no one who has an abortion is kind. That insults every person who has ever had an abortion. Including me.

Hooves,

I'll try one more time. But I don't know what else I can do after that.

First of all, the original post was NOT directed at anyone in particular and was most definitely directed to both sides.

ABLaura is the one that responded so I addressed the pro life side. If Laura had responded, I would have addressed the pro choice side.

This whole thing started because of someone whose name, coincidentally, has not even come up yet.

SO...

the three of you jumped to the conclusion that I was addressing only you.

If you honestly believe that I don't chastise the other side when I feel like they are crossing the line then you haven't been paying attention.

Ask Midnite.
Ask Erin.
Ask Texas Red.
Ask SoMG.
Ask Cameron. (if you can find him)
Ask Sally.
Ask Leah.
Ask Less (oh you can't. She got chastised one too many times and left)

The point is, there wasn't any one incident. There wasn't any one person, there wasn't any one anything...there was a "tone" that was starting to take place. A negative, unproductive, gang up on each other (both sides) stop hearing what anyone is saying and just keep swinging. Eventually you'll hit someone.

Yes. You are right. There is a double standard. It is this.

We are a pro-life site. Every other pro life site on the web deletes posts that are unpleasant or challenging. We wanted to be different. We want to allow a certain amount of "typical behavior" from the other side because we want to make that behavior "A"typical.

Surely, you can see the difference between Texas Red and Amanda? Surely you can see the difference between Zeke and Bethany.

We have some characters here on BOTH sides that we allow because it's good for BOTH sides to see themselves at their worst.

ALL of the pro lifers are looked upon as hosts and hostesses of this website. ALL of us. And all of the pro choicers are looked upon as guests. They have come to OUR home. Yours and mine. To put a fine point on it, you and I are guests at Jills site, but she has graciously given us permission to run with it, basically unsupervised. Making US the host and hostesses.

How much do we have to put up with? Well, Texas Red, Sally on a binge, SoMG when he's threatening to kill people...this is line crossing. That's why I said you could go at TR. She is here to do nothing but cause trouble.

But a lot of the prochoicers who appear to be causing trouble are really just testing the waters and testing US. They don't trust us. They have never met prolifers that don't end up looking down at them. This is perhaps, the first time, they have ever actually engaged in civilized conversation. If they come in swingin' it's up to us to be patient and prove to them that they have nothing to fear.

Hal told us that his wife was sick and you lit into to him so hard...I felt awful for him. It has taken him a year to trust us enough to tell us even that little tidbit about himself. A YEAR! And we convinced him that we could be trusted not to trample on his feelings. And you attacked him and then gloated about it when he left!

And I said NOTHING!

It's not about "They do it, so why can't we"? It's about "They do it, but so what? I won't be party to it!"

They are people. They have feelings. They don't see one issue the way you and I see it, but that does not make them MONSTERS!!!!!

Deep Breath.

I'm sorry that you don't agree with our methods. But they are our methods and we've thought long and hard and had many, many discussions about how we wanted this site to go.

It HAS worked. We have made a lot of friends on the other side. Hard earned friendships with people who hated us when they first came here.

A years worth of work, and patience...

Believe me, I'm no saint. I never will be. But I love these women (and men) and I care about them and I want them to continue to come here and feel safe!

Do your realize that some of these men and women have NEVER had anyone pray for them...Ever?!? They don't have the parents or the support groups that we do. Some women that abort don't have parents that take them and their babies in. They don't have friends that really care about them. Maybe not the prochoicers that speak up on here, but how about the millions that read us and don't speak up?

We want to be that support group for them. We want to be the people that they can come to. We want to be their family.

Do you understand? It has nothing to do with taking sides or teachers pets or double standards! It has everything to do with kindness. And patience.

You guys have even made fun of ME and made sarcastic comments about "Oh it's all about L-O-V-E", mocking something that we have worked months to build.

I don't want you to go. I think you are funny, and articulate and I believe that your really do care. I hope you stay, and I hope we too, can become friends. But I won't jeopardize what it has taken us so long to build...trust.

*huggles MK* Very well said!

Also, for anyone who thinks that real friendships and relationships can't be formed over the internet, I have been a part of an online community for more than seven years. I have some of the most wonderful, fulfilling friendships with them that I can't even describe it. I'm currently working on a massive project with a couple of them, one that will probably last several years. It's only impossible to make friends on the internet if you don't let yourself.

The Do's

Be civil and considerate.

Try to read what the other person is actually saying and not what you think they may be saying.

Express thoughts carefully and clearly.

You are responsible for what you write.

Remember this blog is moderated by volunteers who have put themselves in the position of making difficult judgment calls.

Therefore, respect the Moderators' decisions. They reserve the right to remove any comment for any reason. Know they exercise extreme prudence. All decisions are final.

"Criticize ideas, not people.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Do Not's

(Expect your comment to be deleted for violating any of these rules. You also risk being banned.)

Do not post personal/racial/ethnic/gender-based insults or slurs.

Do not slander.

Do not violate another’s privacy.

Do not threaten fellow commenters or anyone else.

Do not write inflammatory comments just to wind people up.

Do not swear.

Blasphemy will not be tolerated.

For your own safety, do not post personal information about yourself or anyone else.

Mk, That's fine. It seems to be working for you guys. I came here to make friends, not save souls. My goals were not that lofty. I just wanted to meet other prolifers. Simple as that. I was not looking to be someone's family. I have my husband and my son-that's it. I was banished from the rest of my family(parents,siblings,aunts,uncles) over fifteen years ago. I give to my husband and my son.(In other words, I only have so much to give) What's left over is given to my local prolife efforts. I didn't realize what the purpose of this blog was when I first started posting. I was just looking for a safe place as a prolifer. Good luck to you in the future, Carrie

For your own safety, do not post personal information about yourself or anyone else.

Posted by: Anonymous at January 9, 2008 4:40 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Excuse me?
There's an entire thread on this site committed to posting other people's personal information - addresses, phone numbers, etc...
Is posting other people's personal information a no-no, or is it OK?

Less left because she would have argued with a stop sign.

Sorry. I just couldn't agree with that one.

Excuse me?
There's an entire thread on this site committed to posting other people's personal information - addresses, phone numbers, etc...
Is posting other people's personal information a no-no, or is it OK?

Posted by: FetusFascist at January 9, 2008 5:30 PM---------------------------------------------------- WHERE IS THAT?

Heather:
She has attacked me personally on several occasions. She's accused me of being on welfare, and she told me that my son is a "bastard child." adding "You had an obligation to abort him."
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I never said ANY of those things, particularly the one in the quotes.

I can, however, post Heather's drunken midnight meltdown, which was far and away the most hateful diatribe ever posted on this board.

That was good, wasn't it? You deserved it. You did call my son a bastard.

You are such a liar. I asked you what you thought about an aborted baby being shelved to die. Your response...Does he owe me money? You are sick, and people here found you humerous! On the pro life side at that! I thought that was sickening!

That was something that I had been holding in. However, Laura would like for me to get chaos started again, because she thrives on it. I refuse to indulge you.

I'm reading over all these posts and am really overwhelmed.
I enjoy all posters here, those who agree with me, those who vehemently disagree. I have always thought this is what made this blog so interesting. I'm not interested in a mutual admiration society, I'm interested in being challenged and being challenging. Why should any of us have a problem with people opposing us? That's the world, live with it. If you can't intelligently argue for what you believe in, then your convictions must be pretty weak.

One poster in particular suggested my "daddy" was a fascist. I simply responded by stating the facts concerning my long dead father's service in the military in WW2. It doesn't take much effort to put crass commenters in their places. I've gotten many an angry and crude post directed at me. My response has never been to leave, its been to prove the poster wrong, and to hopefully educate in the process. Please keep in mind that people can often make themselves look far more ridiculous than you can ever hope to.
I have serious disagreements with some pro-lifers on this blog concerning the death penalty. So what? I present my argument, they present theirs. Am I going to take my toys and go home because we disagree?
I've reprimanded both PC and PL posters for what I thought was uncalled for behavior. I've also learned many an interesting fact by putting aside differences and being willing to listen.

Come on everyone. I expect better than... so and so is being favored, so and so isn't always nice, why do we have to be nice...? So I'm going to take my toys and go home. I've always expected better from everyone on this blog.
We can agree to disagree, we can debate, and we can always conduct ourselves as mature adults. I've learned over a long lifetime that nothing makes us look more ridiculous than someone's calm response to our ranting, raving, and name calling.

The old broad has spoken, for what its worth.

Blessed be the Lord, my rock.
Who trains my ams for battle,
who prepares my hands for war.
He is my love, my fortress,
my stronghold my saviour
my shield, my place of refuge,
he brings peoples under my rule.

Lord, what is man that you care for him?
Mortal man that you keep him in mind.
Man who is merely a breathe,
whose life fades like a shdaow.

Lower you heavens and come down.
Touch the mountains, wreathe them in smoke.
Shoot your arrows and put them to flight.

Reach down from heaven and save me.
Draw me out from the mighty waters.
From the hands of alien foes,
who mouths are filled with lies.
Whose hands are raised in perjury.

To you O god will I sing a new song.
I will play on the twelve stringed hard.
To you who give kings their victory.
Who set David your servant free.

Jasper,
I am not homophobic either. But I do understand that it is against Gods plan for us and that there never was and never can be anything called
"gay marriage". Marriage is between a man, a woman, and ....this is where we might lose some of you.......God

mk,
careful who you choose as friends. some will pretend to be your friends until they can take advantage. and do me a favor, don't bring them over to my house unannounced.

mk,
careful who you choose as friends. some will pretend to be your friends until they can take advantage. and do me a favor, don't bring them over to my house unannounced.

Hey Hooves. AB Laura & Carrie,

In some ways this site is like a newborn and because of that it is different than anticipated by anyone. It definitely is not a 'restful' place, lol ...lots and lots of growing pains in getting to know one another!

I can remember how brash jasper was when he first came on this site. His sole redeeming quality seemed to be his quirky repetition of a name. He had some knock down and scathing fights. but that wee bit of quirkiness allowed us to know the person, Steve.

Then there is Bobby Bambino who we found out would soon be a new Dad. And I fully agree with Doug, Bobby and his wife will be superb parents. There are all sorts of views here ... and my own is strongly (at times much too strongly) religious in outlook.

But this is a prolife site that is like a wanted-newborn .... we'll gladly take whatever God gives us. ((Like many contemporary Christians, I believe that things do not just happen. God put us together for His own purposes. I will likely never find out what these are: I do not need to know ... I do need to trust.))

MK: I specifically am NOT naming names. I'm just saying that the general tone of this site has taken a turn towards the hostile. You asked, I'm giving my opinion. If I was prochoice and came on here in the last couple of days, I'd hightail it out of here so fast... But if that is the way you guys want this site to go, then fine. I don't own the site. I realize that it will change and mutate over time...but if it ever gets to be all about ganging up on our guests, I'm out of here. There are any number of pro life blogs people can go on. I love this one BECAUSE of the welcoming and loving attitude that usually pervails...

Excellent points, MK, and John M. too. I wouldn't even take sides here - heck, it doesn't seem remotely that bad to me. There are always cycles at work, emotions heating up and cooling down. MK, you would have the perspective to notice an overall trend, though.

So many sites and message boards make the "worst" here a sweet golden dream drifting down a murmuring river.

John M: I can remember how brash jasper was when he first came on this site. His sole redeeming quality seemed to be his quirky repetition of a name. He had some knock down and scathing fights. but that wee bit of quirkiness allowed us to know the person, Steve.

John, you are such a good guy. A big hug to you.

Doug

Mary,

I love old broads...wisdom and all that! Thanks for you input. Again.

Truthseeker,

I'm assuming that was a Psalm...but which one. It was really beautiful...

And it started my day off just right.

Keep 'em coming. You have an awful lot of "good words" in your stash...keep sharing.

Doug,

Thanks. You prove my point. People on BOTH sides feel welcomed here. Feel free to say what they need to say, and feel safe saying it.

Believe me, it ain't always easy. But it IS always rewarding.

It was said that some people are here to "learn"...I say, then take notes. See what works. Open your hearts and remember, these too, are your brothers and sisters.

I think one of the most telling things said here on the topic is "I only have enough for my own family..." That pretty much sums it up for me.

The minute you put a limit on love, you missed the whole point.

And Doug, we're not done yet...I'm still posting on our old thread...

Hey, are you going to put a picture up? I'm dying to put a face to you and Mary and others. But mostly you...you old dog...I mean doug.

John, Mary, Doug, Jasper, great posts. Thanks for your thoughts. Special wave to John, who has indeed been here from the beginning. There was a time when it was just us 2 doing battle. Whew!

There was a time when it was just us 2 doing battle. Whew!

I'll have to go back in the archives and see how that went...lol. I can only imagine. Remember Zurg?

mk,
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words. It is Psalm 144: 1-10. I misspelled "harp" in the last verse.

mk,
You make "friends" with the PC'ers on this blog
by replying to their mockery with sarcastic banter back and forth. Exactly how that is going to help them. It may allow them a temporary relief but it is disingenuous.
The sarcasm and mockery are "really" offensive to those who hold life inside the womb as a precious gift from God. I guess the people who are complaining see you not as helping the PC'ers but rather as playing up to them by joining with their sarcastic back and forth banter. I have no problem rebuking even the PL posters who would attack, but you need to have some serious dialogue with the PC crowd sometimes or the blog loses it's value.

I miss the pro lifers who have left. I really do.

Truthseeker, I agree with you.

Again, I was trying to make peace...not war. I think I'm going to take a break for awhile. Try a "Heather"...

--------------- ?? What was that suppossed to mean? That's what I was wondering.

I believe she was referring to that massive breakdown you had a while back where you called a bunch of choicers that they were satanic and evil and then disappeared for a while.

I didn't have a breakdown. I was just really upset. So, that was directed at me personally? So much for fogiveness and prayer.

Is forgiveness and prayer only one sided as well?

*shrugs* You asked what she was referring to. I just answered. You were a lot calmer after that little hiatus.

WOW! I can't believe that.

Oh well. No love lost.

And Doug, we're not done yet...I'm still posting on our old thread...

MK, right on - I will try and get totally caught up tonight.
......

Hey, are you going to put a picture up? I'm dying to put a face to you and Mary and others. But mostly you...you old dog...I mean doug.

I have to laugh - I've got another one, but this one is from clear back in the 1980s.

The Dawg House I figure the link only works for people who are running AOL, but that's where the pictures were - it was a subdivision of AOL called the "Style Channel" and "The Dawg House" in the late 1990s. Long since defunct, but it still works for downloads. Some of us "regulars" way back when uploaded pictures.

If you have to delete this because it's too racy, no problem.

Hillary, don't tears me sis

The 2008 presidential campaign started off with Hillary as the inevitable establishment candidate. Her earlier attitude was that of supreme confidence bordering on a twinge of guarded arrogance.

To emphasize strength during the debates, Hillary stated that she was not being attacked because she was a woman but only because she was winning.

Hillary also stated that she won't attack other democratic candidates but would rather direct her attacks towards GWB and the republicans.

Hillary claims that she is more electable because she has been tried, tested, proven and stamped ready to be president.

Since then, Hillary's confidence meter has plummeted. She is now feeling the impact of the formidable Obama change movement. Things are happening fast and fear has struck the Clinton flag ship. By observing poll numbers in New Hampshire, the panic button was pushed and the distress alarm went off like this.

SOS to all women and sympathizers, I am in troubled waters and my ship has struck a rock. Water is boarding ship and I am sinking fast. Please dispatch rescue teams on the double to save me from instant doom. Please save my White House dream.

With a cleverly set stage, a planted person and a pre crafted question, Hillary performed and shed the mystery tears that to a great extent changed the dynamics of the New Hampshire primary.

The end result of this girly drama of course was a victory for Hillary Clinton. Under other circumstances, the tear drama could have passed as brilliant but since this race is to elect a president, the act was lamentable.

In the days leading to the primary, the tag team of Bill and Hillary launched a massive campaign, whining and complaining about bad press coverage and favoritism towards Obama. They marginalized Martin Luther King; race baited Obama and used the female card.

Given these events, it�s becoming crystal clear that Obama is the superior candidate for the job of president. Please Hillary, don�t tears me sis.