Commemorating her baby's abortion

Yesterday Susan e-mailed me:

My baby was aborted on this day years ago. I am unable to think of a better way to spend today other than attempting to end the slaughter.

Susan picketed the medical office of abortionist Frank Rodriguez in Palm Beach, FL with her friend Marilyn, below.

Marilyn.jpg

Many moms who have aborted feel getting involved in the abortion movement would be hypocritical. Susan demonstrates the opposite is true. She is now standing in the gap for babies, which is so helpful to the cause. How many people learned yesterday that Rodriguez is a baby killer thanks to Susan and Marilyn?

Doing nothing, partiularly when you personally know abortion hurts children and mothers, only helps the other side.


Comments:

Susan, Thank you so much for standing up for life!

Posted by: Bethany at November 20, 2008 1:22 PM


Awesome! God can turn ashes into beauty. On the anniversary of my abortion I met with the director of our local pregnancy center. I am now on the board. :)
Thank you Susan!!

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 1:40 PM


How good of them to get out there and advertise for their local abortion provider. Most small businesses have to pay people to stand on the street and advertise their services, but these kind ladies are doing it for free. I bet he got a few new patients that day!

Posted by: reality at November 20, 2008 2:00 PM


If that's so, why does it upset abortionists so much, reality? And why do proaborts in general get so bent out of shape about it? Just like they don't like being called "proaborts", they don't like to be associated with the word "abortion" in any way, shape, or form. They want to protect it without saying it, or admitting it exists.

So they euphemize it. "I'm for choice", they say. Choice of what? "Oh, you know", they answer. I know what? "Oh, you know what I mean", they say. Then why won't you say it? "No need to, you know what we mean".

Posted by: Doyle at November 20, 2008 2:10 PM


Reality: "I bet he got a few new patients that day!"

Sure, because its reasonable that some women have abortions on a whim as a direct result of advertisement.

"Hmm...what should I do today...oh hey there is an abortionist here! Whadya know! I know what Im doing this afternoon"

Posted by: Oliver at November 20, 2008 2:26 PM


Abortion is never a necessary service. It is the abortion providers who are pandering their services and offering false hope to desperate women like Susan. For many women, once they begin feeling a grief/loss for their unborn children and/or depression after their abortion and realize the falsehood of promises offered to them by abortion advocates and abortion providers, many have a change of heart. And aren't pro-choice advocates always saying only a woman knows herself and her heart best? Or does it only apply when it politically suites you?

Posted by: Rachael C. at November 20, 2008 2:30 PM


Ok, it appears the post from anonymous whom I was replying to has been deleted. Just to clearify, it was a response to those pro-choicers who say, "Well, no one forced her to have that abortion. She's the one who saught to the services."

Posted by: Rachael at November 20, 2008 2:33 PM


Rachel, well, they had a point. Okay, Susan wanted an abortion, and had one. Now she's picketing a doctor?

Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 2:42 PM


I can think of a better way to make a difference. Consider how you got pregnant and why you chose abortion and help others avoid that choice you now regret. Volunteer at a pregnancy center like Carla or at a day care that helps needy moms go to school or work. Things like that......

Posted by: Virginia at November 20, 2008 2:44 PM


Stand up for truth

Date: October 3, 2007

New Study Shows 'Best Predictor of Breast Cancer'

The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons published a study yesterday entitled, "The Breast Cancer Epidemic." It showed that, among seven risk factors, abortion is the "best predictor of breast cancer," and fertility is also a useful predictor. [1]

Posted by: xppc at November 20, 2008 2:56 PM


Doug,
Did you not read the first part of my post at all?

It is the abortion providers who are pandering their services and offering false hope to desperate women like Susan. For many women, once they begin feeling a grief/loss for their unborn children and/or depression after their abortion and realize the falsehood of promises offered to them by abortion advocates and abortion providers, many have a change of heart. And aren't pro-choice advocates always saying only a woman knows herself and her heart best?

However, I do agree with Virginia, that it may be more productive to help women advoid abortion through providing better alternatives and resources such as the pregnancy resource center and day care.

Posted by: Rachael at November 20, 2008 3:01 PM


Doug,
You are assuming that Susan wanted an abortion. Some women actually want help and support and don't know where to turn.(MY STORY!)I know it is hard for you to imagine that, but it's true.

Virginia,
Susan might do a lot more as well. :) She chose the anniversary of her abortion to take a stand.

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 3:07 PM


xppc do you have a link to the study handy I'm very interested. Thanks.

Also I don't want to argue with anybody but I think that Susan did an honorable thing by following her heart. I think she's pretty brave. And I also value the hard work of those involved with CPCs.

Posted by: Lisa at November 20, 2008 3:08 PM


You are assuming that Susan wanted an abortion. Some women actually want help and support and don't know where to turn.(MY STORY!)I know it is hard for you to imagine that, but it's true.

Carla, I hear you, but she still went in willingly. It just smacks of blaming everybody but herself.

Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 3:59 PM


Rachel: Did you not read the first part of my post at all?

It is the abortion providers who are pandering their services and offering false hope to desperate women like Susan. For many women, once they begin feeling a grief/loss for their unborn children and/or depression after their abortion and realize the falsehood of promises offered to them by abortion advocates and abortion providers, many have a change of heart. And aren't pro-choice advocates always saying only a woman knows herself and her heart best?

Rachel, the thing is that it's certainly not necessarily "false hope." There's no way the provider can know for sure ahead of time how the woman will feel in the long run.

There are no guarantees that a given choice will forever be seen as the best one - that goes for most things. That's no reason to remove people's legal ability to make the choice.

Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 4:04 PM


So true Doug.

Posted by: Virginia at November 20, 2008 4:08 PM


Your response smacks of shame. It sounds like Susan and I got what we paid for right?? You are talking about both of us!! We should just shut up about it already. Sheesh. Walk in the door, pay for the abortion, get one but don't ever mention it if it rips your heart out either.

I went willingly to the mill but had serious doubts the whole time. I cannot express the anguish I felt.

I am sad for you, Doug. Truly sad.

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 4:14 PM


"It just smacks of blaming everybody but herself."
Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 3:59 PM


I agree totally. Carla, you really do seem like a good person.. but (and I'm honestly asking, and if it's too personal just ignore me and I apologize) but at the time... didn't you just.. not want to be pregnant anymore? I'm sorry if that's rude, I'm just curious. I mean, every women that has an abortion has the option of.. not having it. I mean, how many women have the babies knowing they can't afford it, they won't have help, they don't know what's going to happen to them... but they have it anyway.

I'm just confused. The way I see it, she made the decision. Sure, she regrets it.. but she used his "service" and now she's picketing him? Really, what a hypocrite.

Posted by: Josephine at November 20, 2008 4:23 PM


Susan wants to save other women from making the same terrible decision that's filled with guilt and heartache afterwards. I commend her for standing up against abortion.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 20, 2008 5:03 PM


All we really know about Susan is that she had an abortion, she wanted to do something on the anniversary of it because she regrets her "choice." If she is a hypocrite for regretting it than so am I. She and I had our babies killed.

Susan, if you are reading this thread I am sorry for those that continue to disregard the experience you have had. I admire you very much and would be standing out with you. If we lived closer. :)

Josephine,
If you click on my green name you will be at my momblog. My abortion story is in the right sidebar. It is also on youtube if you search Operation Outcry. I am in the green sweater.
We can't afford any of our 4 children. Yet, here they are!! :)
I appreciate your honest questions I just would rather you read it or watch it. Saves me typing time, ya know. Also, I am grateful that at least you want to learn more about abortion regret.

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 5:09 PM


Oh, Josephine. She regrets it, she wants others to "not repeat her mistake". I don't think she's a hypocrite at all, just a woman who bought into the quick fix without being able to know how it would feel down the road and how destructive it would be in her life. Sure she had a choice and she's sorry about it. You remind me alot of my son and his friends. Do you think you could be desensitized?

Posted by: Lisa at November 20, 2008 5:09 PM


Lisa, I just think she should go about it another way. I don't think she should just single out a doctor. I don't think that will help. I think sharing her story would help. And yes, I understand it's the anniversary.. but, I guess I don't think condemning a single person will really help anyone. I guess it just seems a little too, bitter maybe?

But, I'm not saying she doesn't regret it. I'm sure she does. I just think this is the wrong way.


Carla, I'm checking out your stuff right now. Thanks! :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 20, 2008 5:23 PM


I don't think Josephine is saying Susan is a hypocrite because she refrets her abortion. I think she is saying she is a hypocrite because she made a decision, she chose to ask a doctor to give her an abortion and now she is denouncing doctors who provide that service. She is also working to not allow other woman a choice. A choice that she herself had.

Sure, she regrets it and wants to save other women that same regret. But not all women who have had abortions feel the same way. As Doug says, do not take away their choice based on your regret.

Posted by: Virginia at November 20, 2008 5:26 PM


"I think she is saying she is a hypocrite because she made a decision, she chose to ask a doctor to give her an abortion and now she is denouncing doctors who provide that service."


That's exactly what I'm saying. More specifically-- she's denouncing the doctor SHE used.


Carla-- I read your blog. ...Wow.

Posted by: Josephine at November 20, 2008 5:37 PM


This one of my biggest pet peeves.

hypocrite
One entry found.


Main Entry:
hyp·o·crite Listen to the pronunciation of hypocrite
Pronunciation:
\ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date:
13th century

1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

She is not a hypocrite IF SHE CHANGES HER BELIEFS.

Its like how everybody misuses the word irony.

Neither Carla nor this woman are hypocrites. They were fooled by society in thinking that abortion was a valid ethical action. When they understood what exactly it was that they did, they began to stand against what fooled them in the first place.

Here is an analogy.

Tom is addicted to drugs. The dealer Bob hooks him up with Meth every day. Finally Tom realizes how horrible his life has become and realizes how much harm he has caused his loved ones and he kicks the habit. Then on the day celebrating the one year anniversary of kicking the drugs, he seeks out Bob and protests outside of his drug den. (Of course then he is promptly killed in the streets....not quite the scenario in the US for abortion protest yet, but you get the idea.)

Would that make him a hypocrite? Would it make him a hypocrite to join the police force to shut down drug dealers?

No, because he had a change in beliefs.

A hypocrite would be someone who claimed they were ethical but who did drugs and then denounced everyone who did them as unethical.

If Carla had an abortion after claiming how horrible people were who had abortions, then we could aptly call her a hypocrite. This is far from the truth though.

Please think before you post judgments.

Posted by: Oliver at November 20, 2008 5:54 PM


Virginia: "Sure, she regrets it and wants to save other women that same regret. But not all women who have had abortions feel the same way. As Doug says, do not take away their choice based on your regret."

Its amazing how many times pro-choicers use this statement, even after it has been openly demonstrated to be a logical fallacy.


Let me explain this is slow motion.

If you hold the belief that an action or event violates a right upheld by the country, it is not wrong to try to "force" that belief on others by trying to prevent that action or event through legislation.

Think about slavery.

It was not considered wrong by many people. Yet the US "forced" the ethics of those who did believe slavery to be wrong upon those who didnt. This was justified because what they deemed unethical about slavery was that it denied basic human rights to an entire group of humans.

Its exactly the same thing. So please, stop using that platitude.

Posted by: Oliver at November 20, 2008 5:59 PM


Oliver, I will say it slow;y too: Not everyone who has an abortion regrets the decision later. Fact.

Posted by: Virginia at November 20, 2008 6:02 PM


Dear Susan,

If you are online and reading this blog tonight, do not be disheartened.

We have people from all walks of life and political perspectives posting here.

I for one, want to tell you that it takes a brave and knowing heart to make a stand. You should congratulate yourself today. You stood up Susan! You accept accountability for your participation in abortion. You learned from your experience that it was not the solution it was sold to be.

You honored your child's memory and honored your own convictions by holding that sign.

I commend you.

Angele

Posted by: JAN at November 20, 2008 6:04 PM


Virginia: "Oliver, I will say it slow;y too: Not everyone who has an abortion regrets the decision later. Fact."

Not everyone who commits murder regrets it later either. Who cares? And what does that have to do with you butchering the English language to insult someone who has taken a stand for something she believes in even if it is after a drastic change?

Oh no, shes a hypocrite because you dont like her. I forgot.

Posted by: Oliver at November 20, 2008 6:06 PM


I'll give you the correction on the use of the word hypocrite. Thanks. I guess it doesn't apply in this case because she has changed her belief over time.

But not everyone agrees that abortion equals murder. (But I will NOT be dragged into that pointless argument yet again. I know now that I will not change your mind nor you mine. That is why the prolife movement needs a new strategy). And not every woman who has an abortion later regrets it.

Posted by: Virginia at November 20, 2008 6:27 PM


PC always have to end with this statement,"And not every woman who has an abortion later regrets it." OR "do not take away another woman's choice because of your regret."

We are not talking about every woman though are we?
We are talking about Susan. Even Susan was not saying every woman regrets abortion. She is standing in honor of her baby. Go Susan!!!


A personal abortion story of regret is irrefutable.

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 6:48 PM


Carla, you're right about that.

Opened my eyes. What's the atheist equivalent of "god love you?"

Posted by: hal at November 20, 2008 7:38 PM


Josephine,
Thank you for reading. It means a lot to me.

Hal,
I opened your eyes? :)
You would have to ask an atheist that question but God love you!

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 7:57 PM


Carla, I never really comprehended the reality of a woman who had an abortion because she thought she had no options. Of course, I was aware of the concept, but you did open my eyes to it. I thank you for sharing your story with grace and kindness. Someday, I'm sure, a woman who feels like she has no options will cross my path, and rather than simply push her to abort, I'll find out what she really wants and make sure she has as many options as she needs. That's what "choice" should be.

Posted by: hal at November 20, 2008 8:15 PM


Hi hal,

What's the atheist equivalent of "god love you?"

"Peace." (?)

Posted by: Janet at November 20, 2008 8:33 PM


Susan, Thank you for your brave witness for LIFE! God bless you!

Posted by: Janet at November 20, 2008 8:35 PM


Hal,
Thank you. I am wiping the tears as I type.

What did I REALLY want Hal when I found out I was pregnant? Someone to help me, someone to listen to me, hold me, tell me they would be there and that I could take my time and stop and think. Oh, and tell me that I was already a mom and that my baby was growing while I let reality sink in.

Posted by: Carla at November 20, 2008 8:44 PM


What's the atheist equivalent of "God love you"?


It's "the atomic particles composing my brain have sent an electronic stimulus down my central nervous system and created the illusion of a positive emotion directed at the collection of particles known as 'you,'to the extent that if a hypothetical omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being existed I would desire that it exhibit towards you an even more intense favorable emotional state."

Posted by: The Raving Atheist at November 20, 2008 9:02 PM


Raving,
That is a Hallmark card just waiting to happen. You should give it a try. :)

Posted by: Janet at November 20, 2008 9:26 PM


"I know now that I will not change your mind nor you mine. That is why the prolife movement needs a new strategy"


eh? If the new strategy is not to change minds then what should it be?

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 20, 2008 9:55 PM


LOL Raving!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 20, 2008 9:56 PM


We should just shut up about it already.

No, Carla. Not saying that.

But don't pretend that every woman's experience will be like yours.

Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 9:58 PM


@Raving..

Do you ever watch Friends? That reminds me of when Joey wrote a letter to the adoption agency for Chandler and Monica. :)

*Reading the letter*

Monica: It doesn’t make any sense.

Joey: Of course it does! It’s smart! I used the the-saurus!

Chandler: On every word?

Joey: Yep!

Monica: Alright, what was this sentence originally?

Joey: Oh, ‘They are warm, nice, people with big hearts’.

Chandler: And that became ‘they are humid prepossessing Homo Sapiens with full sized aortic pumps...?

Joey: Yeah, yeah and hey, I really mean it, dude.

Monica: Hey Joey, I don’t think we can use this.

Joey: Why not?

Monica: Well, because you signed it baby kangaroo Tribbiani.

Posted by: Josephine at November 20, 2008 10:00 PM


We are not talking about every woman though are we?

Carla, when anybody says stuff like "offering false hope" in an unqualified manner, then yeah, of course.

Posted by: Doug at November 20, 2008 10:01 PM


Janet: I will definitely attempt to induce the corporate manufacture of the rectangular, pulp-based sentiment-conveying consumer product that you recommend.

Josephine: I hadn't seen that episode, but thanks for bringing to my attention -- I tracked the scene down on YouTube.

Posted by: The Raving Atheist at November 20, 2008 10:28 PM


Hurah for Oliver.

Hypocrisy is not failing to practice what you preach, it's failing to believe what you preach.

Carla believes what she says.

Which is why the Oman is gonna get a lot of liberals hot under the collar, if he doesn't act on his abortion statements to those professional pro aborts. Liberals are simple. Your a hypocrite Oman, you preached to us and agreed with us on every demand in matters of abortion.


Your beginning to act like a hypocrite Oman, writes some liberal Daily Kos blogger.


To which the Oman replies, I never really believed what I preached to you pro aborts anyway.

Maybe you should have asked me if I really do believe what I say, says Obama, with a smile on his face. Afterall, I am a typical politician, and played you off by saying such things as, Hope you can believe in. It's you, that thought it was your hope, when it was about my hope to be President.

Then Hal will come to the defence of that hypocrite Obama.

More Hillarity follows.

Posted by: yllas at November 20, 2008 10:45 PM


I am impressed with Susan, to stand alone and speak the truth -- that is courage. I'm sending prayers her way.

No matter how valid or bold anything I write in a comment section of a blog is, it can't compare with standing alone in the community with a simple message.

Posted by: Betty at November 20, 2008 10:48 PM


If you don't mind some language, I think most of you will love to read this blog, or at least the most recent 3 posts, which are baby stories. The woman is HILARIOUS

http://blog.nataliedee.com/

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 20, 2008 11:21 PM


PIP,
First of all: I totally have several Natalie Dee painting behind the couch in my apartment! Whoa.

Second of all: That was hilarious. During the post about her actually HAVING the baby, I was laughing out loud through the entire thing. My bf is just staring at me (I obviously can't tell him about it, he wouldn't even hold my hand again!) like I'm crazy. :) So, thanks for sharing.

Posted by: Josephine at November 20, 2008 11:46 PM


Virginia: "And not every woman who has an abortion later regrets it."

So what? Not everyone regrets murder in general. Not everyone regreted, or regrets, slavery.

What does that say about abortion? Nothing.

Posted by: Oliver at November 21, 2008 1:59 AM


"But don't pretend that every woman's experience will be like yours" sayeth Doug.

Doug, that is very good advice and I am glad you brought it up because I just never would have thought of that and yes I am being totally sarcastic.

I don't really have to pretend. Everyone who regrets their abortion has a story like mine. :)

I am praying for you today Doug. And you Hal.

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 6:00 AM


One more thing.
Where does it say in Jill's post that Susan was picketing the abortionist SHE used??

Ok two more things.
Doug you said that Susan went willingly. The fact that she physically moved her legs and body into the abortionists for an abortion is proof enough to you that she wanted it, her mind was made up. I have never seen so much crying in my life from the ones going in and the ones coming out. But then again they went willingly.........

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 7:13 AM


Carla, Carla, Carla,

Remember, when conversing with Doug, your conversing with a vampire. He pretends to be human, mesmerizing women he meets with those penetrating eyes and flashy wardrobe, but we all know what he wants, the blood of a innocent human being.


Fact is, no one every had a good argument against a vampire, they just thought they did.


Posted by: yllas at November 21, 2008 8:05 AM


Carla the truth is you could have walked away from the clinic. You always had a choice. If you were going to get kicked out of your house you could have found somewhere else to live. Sure it might not be so nice but you wouldn't have had to have an abortion. If your parents disown you? There are plenty of people who have never even had parents and they're still living. Your boyfriend would have broken up with you? I don't have a boyfriend and I'm not dead. The point is you had a choice. No matter how pressured you felt you had a choice. You took the easy way out. That was your choice.

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/07/animal_rights_a.html
Look at the second picture. Now look at the picture with this post. Look familiar Jill?

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 9:26 AM


Vampire yllas? Really? Ok let's get the torch carrying towns people and drive a stake through Doug's heart. Read Twilight last night yllas?

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 9:29 AM


Oh and I'm a giant who eats Christians. Rwarrr!

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 9:30 AM


Jess,
I am not even going to comment on what you wrote.
Please shut up.

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 10:09 AM


I will however quote The Raving Atheist.

"But is choice truly choice when a lack of knowledge and access gives one no choice?"

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 10:11 AM


Jess, Doug,

unbelievable. Honestly, have a heart. I can't believe that of all people that you would pick on, that it would be Carla. She has never been anything but kind to you.

Carla the truth is you could have walked away from the clinic. You always had a choice.

Jess, I think Carla is WELL aware of that.

The truth is, Jess, that when women are in a situation where they are frightened and fearful of the unknown, they do sometimes make the wrong choice because of pressure and not knowing what the right choice should be. Do you always make PERFECT choices? Do you ever make a choice you've regretted later???

Women who are considering abortion may not always see the light at the end of the tunnel- they are afraid of the unknown. They look to others for help in deciding what to do. They can be deceived into thinking abortion is the right choice. They can be deceived into believing it is not a human being they are killing. So they may be making a "choice", but it is not a free, informed choice, is it?

Carla has many times admitted that she made the wrong choice, and that it was HER choice but that she has regretted that choice ever since it happened 16 years or more ago. Why do you feel the need to rub salt in her wound????

Sometimes I really wonder about you.

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 10:27 AM


Carla,

I have not commented here in a while cause school has eaten my soul..and all my spare time. But I decided to just come and check some stuff out, see how it's been going, and I just have to say how much I look up to you. You are a wonderful person and mother, and I only wish I had a time machine, and we could have been the same age when you found out you were pregnant. I wish I could have been that person to show you that you had other choices. Jess is a spoiled little girl who has no idea what the real world is like, so she just sits and spews her "holier than thou" nonsense, not even thinking about what she's saying. (at least I believe she can't REALLY think about what she's saying, or she'd never say it)

:hugs: I love you!!

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 21, 2008 10:29 AM


"But is choice truly choice when a lack of knowledge and access gives one no choice?"

Abortion is the UN-choice.
http://www.unfairchoice.info/TopTenReasonsItsTheUnChoice.htm

why it's the unchoice

a pattern of injustices and injuries dressed up as "choice"


Top 10 Reasons it's the Un-choice ...


60% said "part of me died."1
click here for share-able pdf version

1.

The rhetoric of choice hides the reality of coercion.
2.

64% of American women who have had abortions felt pressured by others.1
3.

Her “choices” may involve losing her shelter, her family, her income or even her life. Coercion can escalate to violence. 2 Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.3
4.

Coercion takes many forms, including undisclosed, deceptive or false information..4
5.

Even though the majority felt rushed, 67% received no counseling; 79% were not told about alternatives.1
6.

Abortion is often a woman’s last choice, but her abuser's first choice.2 America's teens are also at risk for coercion, health injury and suicide. 5
7.

Many who pushed family or friends to abort were also deceived – by experts, authorities, even pastors – about fetal development, alternatives and risks.4, 6
8.

The overall death rate of women rises 3.5 times after an abortion.7 Suicide rates are 6-7 times higher after an abortion.8
9.

65% report symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder they attribute to their abortions.1
10.

"We were maiming at least one woman a month." – Carol Everett, former abortion clinic operator9

It wasn’t safe. It wasn’t fair. It wasn’t about “choice.”

Citations

1. VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16, 2004.

2. See the special report, Forced Abortion in America at www.unfairchoice.info/Coerced.htm.

3. I.L. Horton and D. Cheng, “Enhanced Surveillance for Pregnancy-Associated Mortality-Maryland, 1993-1998,” JAMA 285(11): 1455-1459 (2001). See also J. Mcfarlane et. al., "Abuse During Pregnancy and Femicide: Urgent Implications for Women's Health," Obstetrics & Gynecology 100: 27-36 (2002).

4. Melinda Tankard-Reist, Giving Sorrow Words (Springfield, IL: Acorn Books, 2007).

5. Sobie & Reardon, “A Generation at Risk: How Pro-Abortionists Manipulate Vulnerable Teens,” The Post-Abortion Review, Vol. 8, No. 1, Jan-Mar. 2000.

6. Carol Everett with Jack Shaw, Blood Money (Sisters, OR: Multnomah Books, 1992). See also Pamela Zekman and Pamela Warwick, “The Abortion Profiteers,” Chicago Sun Times special reprint, Dec. 3, 1978 (originally published Nov. 12, 1978), p. 2-3, 33.

6. M Gissler et. al., “Pregnancy Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994 -- definition problems and benefits of record linkage,” Acta Obsetricia et Gynecologica Scandinavica 76:651-657, 1997. See also, DC Reardon et. al., “Deaths Associated With Pregnancy Outcome: A Record Linkage Study of Low Income Women,” Southern Medical Journal 95(8):834-41, Aug. 2002.

7. M. Gissler et. al., “Injury deaths, suicides and homicides associated with pregnancy, Finland 1987-2000,” European J. Public Health 15(5):459‑63, 2005; and M. Gissler, et. al., “Methods for identifying pregnancy-associated deaths: population-based data from Finland 1987-2000,” Paediatric Perinatal Epidemiology 18(6): 44855, Nov. 2004.

8. VM Rue et. al., “Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women,” Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16, 2004.

9. From The Ex-Abortionists: Why They Quit, by Frank Joseph, MD (The Human Life Foundation, 215 Lexington Avenue, New York, New York 10016).

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 10:31 AM


Elizabeth, that was a really sweet comment. I agree with you wholeheartedly...I wish I could have been that friend for Carla too!

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 10:32 AM


Thank you Bethany and Elizabeth! Oh, how I wish that I knew then what I know now!!

I love you both!! ((HUGS))

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 10:37 AM


Hal, 8:15...that was really sweet.

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 10:41 AM


Carla, I love you too!

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 10:44 AM


Jess,
Yes, I took the easy way out. Here is what the easy way out looked like after my abortion. Anxiety, depression, shame, nightmares, grief, heavy drinking, overeating, undereating, excessive exercising, suicidal thoughts and a suicide attempt.

Easy Peasy.

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 11:24 AM


Jess: "Oh and I'm a giant who eats Christians. Rwarrr!"

No, but you are closeminded and self-centered. I suppose this is a product of your experience. I would say it is your age of course, but I was 20 too (3 a half years ago.) It doesnt necessarily cause people to act and speak like you do.

I am also wondering when you are going to respond to the critiques of your "Gosh dude, Christians dont like death man. Death is like a part of life...whoaahh." post.

Posted by: Oliver at November 21, 2008 12:43 PM


Carla -- I'm sending hugs to you and yours. I walked much of the same ground as you and know what it is like to have everyone around you present abortion as the only option. The merry band of pro-aborts have no vision and offer no hope; they surely would have been flat-earthers back when Columbus sailed. ChKildren offer possibilities, abortion offers death and they choose death.
Keep up the good fight and continue to help women see what is really involved in abortion. Never let the Jesses and Dougs of the world silence or dismiss your story.

Jess -- you get the stink-eye. Maybe you should have a personal experience with something other than a hamster.

Posted by: Betty at November 21, 2008 1:42 PM


Betty,
I will continue to press on!:)
Thank you so much for your kind words. I am sorry if you have been where I have and hope you have found healing. Hugs to you.

Also, stink-eye is the funniest!! LOL

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 2:19 PM


I'm not picking on Carla I'm just saying we have choice. They might not be the best choices, there might not be the best solutions, but there is a choice.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 2:33 PM


Sorry Oliver I'm busy doing actual real-life things. I only stop by when I have a few minutes to spare.

Betty I have a uterus and I want to have complete control of it. That's my personal experience.

And fine Carla tell us all about your experience but it is a choice, don't act like people can just say "I didn't have a choice" and give up all responsibility for their actions.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 2:39 PM


Jess,

Just apologize if you dont want to own up to what you said. You didnt say "well gosh guys we have choices!" You said "No matter how pressured you felt you had a choice. You took the easy way out."

If thats what you want to say, then stick by it. Otherwise apologize. Technically you are right, although the spirit you bring it in and the context that you bring it to suggest you meant it specifically as a critique.

Speaking of critique, when are you going to respond to the critique that was given to you when you negatively responded to Christians lamenting the killing of an invalid?

Oh right, probably never. You dont have the character to consider anything outside of your own minuscule experience.


Posted by: Oliver at November 21, 2008 2:42 PM


Doug you said that Susan went willingly. The fact that she physically moved her legs and body into the abortionists for an abortion is proof enough to you that she wanted it, her mind was made up. I have never seen so much crying in my life from the ones going in and the ones coming out. But then again they went willingly

Carla, yes, willingly. If they are physically compelled against their will, then neither I nor Pro-Choicers in general are for that, any more than you'd be.

I do think her mind was made up, regardless of what came later. Don't you think it was? And also, regardless of what came later, for her to be picketing a doctor, like in protest, well that's blaming somebody else for what she came to see as a mistake on her part.

And sure - cyring - nobody said it's going to be "easy" nor an easy decision for all women. Here again, because some people regret doing a thing is not by itself a good reason to make it illegal for all or anybody to do it.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 2:46 PM


Remember, when conversing with Doug, your conversing with a vampire.

Heh - yllas, if there is a"vampire" on Jill's blog it's you.
....


He pretends to be human, mesmerizing women he meets with those penetrating eyes and flashy wardrobe, but we all know what he wants, the blood of a innocent human being.

Nope, and like a wise person once said - you're the one most likely to be clearing out a place in the basement for the bodies....

I know that some women do indeed regret abortions, but that is no good reason to make it illegal for all.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 2:50 PM


Carla every action has consequences. If you didn't have your abortion experience do you think you would still be a pro-life advocate? Do you think maybe you would be neutral or even pro-choice? Maybe women have not had abortions because of you, maybe you turned someone to the pro-life cause. But those are maybes'. What you can do now is make the best of a bad situation. You are doing that. Keep it up and maybe you'll realize that your choice's lead to something better. Your choices made you the defender of life you are now. You're strong, brave and knowledgeable and you did it all yourself.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 2:52 PM


Jess, Doug, unbelievable. Honestly, have a heart. I can't believe that of all people that you would pick on, that it would be Carla. She has never been anything but kind to you.

Bethany, I know that Carla is a very sweet and well-meaning person.

I'm not picking on her. I think her blog and the speech she gave were quite straightforward - she doesn't blame other people, and I think Susan should be the same way.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 2:54 PM


And fine Carla tell us all about your experience but it is a choice, don't act like people can just say "I didn't have a choice" and give up all responsibility for their actions.


Jess,

Where did Carla EVER say that?!! EVER?? I've NEVER heard her say she didn't have a choice. Of course she did, and at least you admit that abortion IS taking the easy way out. Although, that doesn't sound very pro-choice to me. I thought it was about having complete control of your uterus, like you claim to have.

But really Jess, what is it about being between a rock and a hard place is so hard for you to comprehend? Don't you think if Carla had had just ONE PERSON in her life who didn't say abort, abort, abort, she wouldn't have aborted? Maybe, just maybe...

But see that's the thing with abortion, some "choices" you just can't take back. Carla blames herself for her abortion..that I am sure. But as with many things in this life, there are a hell of a lot of other people to blame as well...pointing that out doesn't take away Carla's responsibility for her actions in any way. Try to grasp that k?

Carla,

Don't worry...All of Jess's compassion has been sucked up by the animals and she doesn't have any left for humans. It happens. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 21, 2008 2:56 PM


I went willingly to the mill but had serious doubts the whole time. I cannot express the anguish I felt.

Carla, that's a hard thing, and I'm sorry for that.

Looking at it another way, some decisions that are easy for you or me may be filled with anguish for another person.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 2:56 PM


Yllas: "with those penetrating eyes and flashy wardrobe"

I think someone has a crush...

Doug,

See my drug user analogy. Is there anything wrong with a drug abuser who has a change of heart and then joins the NARC unit to bring down the seller?

Of course not. How is there anything wrong here either? The woman was foolish and made a mistake. She realized the gravity of her mistake, changed her ways and decided to protest the ENABLER of the mistake. Where is there anything to criticize? Examine your motive for criticism. Surely you are tainted by the belief that abortion is not a "mistake" to begin with.

Posted by: Oliver at November 21, 2008 2:56 PM


And fine Carla tell us all about your experience but it is a choice, don't act like people can just say "I didn't have a choice" and give up all responsibility for their actions.

SHE NEVER SAID THAT!

Carla, yes, willingly. If they are physically compelled against their will, then neither I nor Pro-Choicers in general are for that, any more than you'd be.

What about emotionally, Doug? Should a woman ever be emotionally compelled to have an abortion?

aI do think her mind was made up, regardless of what came later. Don't you think it was? And also, regardless of what came later, for her to be picketing a doctor, like in protest, well that's blaming somebody else for what she came to see as a mistake on her part.

no, she is trying to help other women not to make the same mistake she made.

And sure - cyring - nobody said it's going to be "easy" nor an easy decision for all women. Here again, because some people regret doing a thing is not by itself a good reason to make it illegal for all or anybody to do it.

No one ever said that was the "only" reason to make abortion illegal.

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 2:57 PM


See my drug user analogy. Is there anything wrong with a drug abuser who has a change of heart and then joins the NARC unit to bring down the seller?

Perfect example!

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 2:58 PM


Don't worry...All of Jess's compassion has been sucked up by the animals and she doesn't have any left for humans. It happens. :)

Yep, it happens.

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 3:00 PM


I'm not picking on her. I think her blog and the speech she gave were quite straightforward - she doesn't blame other people, and I think Susan should be the same way.

But you are hurting her, Doug. What you are doing is insensitive and you can't even see that.

Carla never said that "every" woman experiences the same feelings about abortion as she does. She only gives her experience, and you keep coming at her with, "Well, not everyone feels like you do"...what is the point of that?

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 3:03 PM


Bethany,

I think they want to devalue Carla's experience because if they do, then abortion is still okay. If the sheer fact that women WANT abortions is enough to make them legal, then why should the reverse be ANY different? Which is probably why they don't want Roe v. Wade overturned, because then it goes to the states, and people get to vote on it. And that probably scares them. God forbid the government says it's not okay to kill your kids while they're still in your body. You made them and can't kill them?!!! NO WAY!! (*sarcasm*)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 21, 2008 3:17 PM


If the sheer fact that women WANT abortions is enough to make them legal, then why should the reverse be ANY different?

Now THAT was a great point!

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 3:20 PM


I'm not picking on her. I think her blog and the speech she gave were quite straightforward - she doesn't blame other people, and I think Susan should be the same way.

And how do you know Susan is not that way? Because she is holding a sign that says that doctor is an abortionist? I don't see anything on the sign that says, "My doctor held me down and physically forced me to have an abortion"... do you?

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 3:30 PM


Pro-aborts are very invested in a couple of myths.
1. Abortion is a simple solution with no after effects.
2. Carrying a crisis pregnancy to term will ruin a woman's life.

If anyone offers a story that refutes these myths, proaborts haul out the personal attack. Their reaction show how effective personal testimony is against their claims. People like Susan, Carla can testify against Myth #1. Others like myself (a single mom) or birth mothers and happy adoptees testify against Myth #2.

Those two myths are being pushed by the proaborts and the media to the point that women in the midst of a crisis pregnancy feel they have no choice. If all you hear is that you have the choice between an hour Dr visit or a lifetime of misery -- well it sounds like an easy 'choice'.

It's Plato's cave analogy in with the puppets in the hands of the pro-death folks.

Posted by: Betty at November 21, 2008 3:35 PM


After a long time out...

I regret my abortion.
Well, you chose it.
I regret my abortion.
Not all women regret theirs.
I regret my abortion.
You went willingly.
I regret my abortion.
That's no reason to make it illegal.
I regret my abortion.
You can't blame everyone else.
I regret my abortion.
You took the easy way out.
I regret my abortion.
You should take responsibility for your actions.
I regret my abortion.
Every action has consequences.
I regret my abortion.
Some decisions are easier to make.
I regret my abortion.
Nobody said it was going to be easy.

I am sorry this turned into a big long Carla thread.

Posted by: Carla at November 21, 2008 5:17 PM


Carla I support you :)

Elizabeth nice to see you again! In fact, it would be fun to talk sometime. I am considering switching to nurse practitioner instead of PA and I got some thinking to do!!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 21, 2008 5:58 PM


Also, Jess, I love ya, but I think you need to take a look at what you are really saying before you post. Although you don't mean it, a lot of them have been coming off as insensitive recently. It's a sensitive topic...

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 21, 2008 6:00 PM


Oooo pip that's so cool! Yes we should talk for sure..I don't know if you have aim, but my aim screenname is on my facebook profile or we can just facebook im sometime!

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 21, 2008 6:01 PM


Sounds good! I'm in a dilemma man--wait until senior year, right?

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 21, 2008 6:10 PM


See my drug user analogy. Is there anything wrong with a drug abuser who has a change of heart and then joins the NARC unit to bring down the seller?

Oliver, not from the standpoint of drug use being illegal. But of course, abortion is not illegal.
....


Of course not. How is there anything wrong here either?

Because she's saying "this guy does abortions." Well Hello, you already had one, willingly," so it's just nuts.
.....


The woman was foolish and made a mistake.

It's not "foolish" to make a mistake, per se. She didn't know how she'd feel in the long run. That's no reason to never make any decisions.
....


She realized the gravity of her mistake, changed her ways and decided to protest the ENABLER of the mistake. Where is there anything to criticize? Examine your motive for criticism. Surely you are tainted by the belief that abortion is not a "mistake" to begin with.

There is not only one way about it, Oliver. For some, it ends up being a mistake, and of course not for others - many more others IMO.

It was only with her emotions in later years that it came to be seen as a "mistake," so it's not like the doctor is some evil "enabler," anymore than an obstetrician is for women who give birth and later regret it or have "bad" kids, etc.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:18 PM


Betty: Abortion is a simple solution with no after effects.

Sometimes that is the case, Betty, but not always. The error would be in generalizing falsely one way or the other, i.e. "always okay" or "always bad," etc.
.....


Carrying a crisis pregnancy to term will ruin a woman's life.

That's pretty much a straw man argument. I certainly don't say it would literally "ruin" a given woman's life, necessarily. However, the woman herself may not be saying that, either. If she just doesn't want to continue a pregnancy, that's reason enough - she doesn't have to say she'll be "ruined" or make any grandiose case beyond how she feels.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:22 PM


O: See my drug user analogy. Is there anything wrong with a drug abuser who has a change of heart and then joins the NARC unit to bring down the seller?

B: Perfect example!

No it isn't, Bethany. Illegal use of narcotics is one thing. Legal actions are another.

Is there anything wrong with somebody who got their ears pierced, then has a change of heart and protests those who do piercings?

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:25 PM


Yllas: "with those penetrating eyes and flashy wardrobe"

Oliver: I think someone has a crush...

:: laughing :: Right on, Oliver. Oh, that yllas....

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:28 PM


"Carla, yes, willingly. If they are physically compelled against their will, then neither I nor Pro-Choicers in general are for that, any more than you'd be."

Bethany: What about emotionally, Doug? Should a woman ever be emotionally compelled to have an abortion?

I sure don't think so, Bethany.
.....


"I do think her mind was made up, regardless of what came later. Don't you think it was? And also, regardless of what came later, for her to be picketing a doctor, like in protest, well that's blaming somebody else for what she came to see as a mistake on her part."

B: no, she is trying to help other women not to make the same mistake she made.

That's just it - it's not going to be a mistake for a lot of women. There's no magic crystal ball to know what "other women" will end up feeling the same way.

That said, again - I think Carla is very honest in telling her story. I don't see any BS from her telling what happened or how she felt or how she feels now. And I don't think it'd be a bad thing for pregnant women to hear how Carla feels. Especially if they're really conflicted about things.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:33 PM


"I'm not picking on her. I think her blog and the speech she gave were quite straightforward - she doesn't blame other people, and I think Susan should be the same way."

B: But you are hurting her, Doug. What you are doing is insensitive and you can't even see that.

We've been here before. I don't think I've been insensitive. In no way have I denied Carla's experience nor said she shouldn't feel as she does.

I certainly agree with her when she says, "A personal abortion story of regret is irrefutable."
.....


Carla never said that "every" woman experiences the same feelings about abortion as she does. She only gives her experience, and you keep coming at her with, "Well, not everyone feels like you do"...what is the point of that?

Bethany, there would be no good point if that really was the case.

But what I've disagreed with is where Rachel said, "abortion providers ....offering false hope..." And as stated that is not true. For lots of women - most IMO - they want to end the pregnancy and that is what having an abortion does, and they don't regret it, overall, at the time or later on. So in no way is it necessarily "false hope."

The one thing where I disagree with Carla is when she said, "Abortion hurts women." If she'd said, "Some women are hurt by abortion" then I would not disagree with it.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 6:44 PM


"I'm not picking on her. I think her blog and the speech she gave were quite straightforward - she doesn't blame other people, and I think Susan should be the same way."

And how do you know Susan is not that way? Because she is holding a sign that says that doctor is an abortionist? I don't see anything on the sign that says, "My doctor held me down and physically forced me to have an abortion"... do you?

Bethany, she's picketing the guy's office isn't she? If she was telling other women how having an abortion made her feel and how she feels now, it'd be a different thing.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 7:16 PM


Elizabeth not all options are equal. If there was a woman, Woman A , whose family and friends desperately wanted her to have the child then her choice would probably have been a lot easier then Carla's. Carla's choice probably wasn't the best one for her since she regrets it so much but it seems like it would have been the easiest one to make because she was pressured so much into having the abortion.

Well Doug of course abortion hurts women, physically, sometimes emotionally. It always hurts babies though, everyone who considers abortion should be aware of that. Does it hurt more then the other choices? That's something to think about.

And so what if I love animals? I have enough love to go around. Though I doubt anyone hear wants to hear me say something nice.
*Cue the "You stupid heartless vampire!" comments*

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:23 PM


E: I think they want to devalue Carla's experience

Elizabeth, I think Jess went overboard, but neither I nor Jess mean to "devalue" Carla's experience - I certainly don't.

If there is one thing I've posted that is personally critical of Carla, then I'm sorry and I was wrong in doing it, but I don't think any such thing is there, not on this thread, and not on any thread.
.....

If the sheer fact that women WANT abortions is enough to make them legal, then why should the reverse be ANY different?

Not all women want to have abortions. And they don't have to. It's their choice, not their obligation.

And not all women don't want abortions. If none wanted them, it wouldn't be much of an issue, if an issue at all.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 7:30 PM


The one thing where I disagree with Carla is when she said, "Abortion hurts women." If she'd said, "Some women are hurt by abortion" then I would not disagree with it.

What part of "abortion hurts women" is false, Doug? The statement is not "abortion hurts all women". It is "abortion hurts women". Obviously, abortion DOES hurt women. You may have disagreements as to how many women, but the fact remains that women are hurt by it.

Posted by: Bethany at November 21, 2008 7:32 PM


Well excuse me Bethany and Oliver regarding your answer to my post on Lauren. I thought your problem was with her dying. Maybe she will recover when she is brought home. Her father said she was not comatose but only in a minimal state of consciousness. If that is true then maybe being brought home to familiar surroundings will result in a change in her condition, like other people who have suffered brain injuries that result in amnesia and things of that sort. I realize the two are different and I wouldn't expect her to fully recover but she might improve a little bit. But I'm no doctor.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:33 PM


Being pressured doesn't mean it was the easy decision Jess. It may have made everyone ELSE feel easier in the end cause they didn't actually have to deal with ANY of it, but I doubt it was the easy choice for Carla.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 21, 2008 7:35 PM


Jess: Well Doug of course abortion hurts women, physically, sometimes emotionally. It always hurts babies though, everyone who considers abortion should be aware of that. Does it hurt more than the other choices? That's something to think about.

Jess, sometimes abortion hurts women. And sometimes so does continuing pregnancies and giving birth.

I look at suffering, and for many women there is less suffering involved in having an abortion versus not having one, while there's no evidence that the unborn to a point in gestation suffer at all. That's a big reason why I'm for abortion being legal to a time in gestation.

You ask, "does it hurt more..." and that's a good question. If everybody knew the answer for their own particular situation, that'd make for a lot more correct decisions.
.....


And so what if I love animals? I have enough love to go around. Though I doubt anyone hear wants to hear me say something nice.
*Cue the "You stupid heartless vampire!" comments*

:: laughing ::

Now that you said it, she's not going to do it....

I think people are fine with you saying something nice. But, you do want to push people's buttons from time to time, I think.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 7:38 PM


Then it was a difficult choice Elizabeth. The point is she had two choices. She SHOULD have been fully informed of both of her choices. The feelings I get from her posts are that she didn't really know what she was doing getting an abortion and if she knew more about the other options she would have chose differently. I'm not Carla so I don't know what she really knew but I feel in general the abortion industry really skimps on informing women of what their choices really are and what they really mean. That is not being pro-choice. If they were really pro-choice they would have told her everything. They aren't however, they are just a business.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:41 PM


What part of "abortion hurts women" is false, Doug? The statement is not "abortion hurts all women". It is "abortion hurts women". Obviously, abortion DOES hurt women. You may have disagreements as to how many women, but the fact remains that women are hurt by it.

Bethany, it's no more correct to say "abortion hurts women" than it is to say "abortion does not hurt women."

The right way to say it is that some women do regret having abortions on balance and that some do not.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 7:41 PM


Doug even the best abortion is still painful. I had to get a biopsy (everything came back fine!) of my cervix earlier this year and they had to scrap some cells. It was so disturbing to say the least I almost puked. It hurt a little for like an hour afterwards. Imagine how bad an abortion would feel. I would like to hear one woman say there was no pain.

Well of course birth hurts women as well, I've heard some real horror stories about it.

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:45 PM


She SHOULD have been fully informed of both of her choices.

Jess, we're always "uninformed" to some extent. If we knew what we don't know, then we wouldn't not know it, eh?

I agree with you about not skimping on information, but in the long run, knowing how one will feel is the most important, IMO. And of course we often cannot know that.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 7:47 PM


"But, you do want to push people's buttons from time to time, I think."

I miss my family Doug : (
I wanted to come home for Thanksgiving break today but my coach is making me stay till Tuesday. Maybe that's why I've been a grump? It's alright though, my family and I are going to see the movie "Bolt" when I get home. It stars a hamster : )

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:49 PM


Wait Doug I'm confused?

I guess I mean at least the basics, like some women don't even know how developed their baby is when they abort it or if it has a beating heart or a brain or fingernails or whatnot. The same goes giving birth, ect...

Too bad we can't see in to the future. Well... I know a place where they can read your palm. "Excuse me but can you tell me if I should have an abortion?" Palm reader, *blink blink*

Posted by: Jess at November 21, 2008 7:53 PM


"Which is why the Oman is gonna get a lot of liberals hot under the collar, if he doesn't act on his abortion statements to those professional pro aborts. Liberals are simple. Your a hypocrite Oman, you preached to us and agreed with us on every demand in matters of abortion."

Fantasize much, Yllas?

Posted by: Therence at November 21, 2008 7:57 PM


"But, you do want to push people's buttons from time to time, I think."

I miss my family Doug : (
I wanted to come home for Thanksgiving break today but my coach is making me stay till Tuesday. Maybe that's why I've been a grump? It's alright though, my family and I are going to see the movie "Bolt" when I get home. It stars a hamster : )

:: laughing :: Well, maybe you're a bit grumpy but I do think you like to stir things up for the sake of them being agitated, no? I once asked you if you weren't being a bit harsh, and you said, in effect, "Well, Amanda isn't around so I'm doing it..." ; )

I have to work through Tuesday then hop a plane - meeting my wife in an airport then we go on to my mom's house for Thanksgiving. Sunday, it's right back to work.

Wait Doug I'm confused? I guess I mean at least the basics, like some women don't even know how developed their baby is when they abort it or if it has a beating heart or a brain or fingernails or whatnot. The same goes giving birth, ect...

If they want to know, if it matters to them then I think they should find it out - no doubt about it.

Jess, you've always been a delightfully free spirit.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 8:03 PM


Go Susan Go!

Posted by: truthseeker at November 21, 2008 8:31 PM


Doug: "Is there anything wrong with somebody who got their ears pierced, then has a change of heart and protests those who do piercings?"

If they felt it was deeply morally wrong? No. Maybe a bit crazy from my point of view, but no, there would be nothing wrong.

Lets analyze the analogy a bit further.

You said that it was not applicable because abortion is not legal. My analogy compensated for that by introducing the police into the equation. The scope of the analogy was to analyze the relationship between believing a certain way and then later reversing that belief and protesting that belief. The legality of the drug use or abortion is not the question. The question is "Is it nuts to believe a certain way and then change opinions so drastically that you feel lead to prevent people from believing the way you now hold to be universally immoral?" Of course it isnt.

Strip clubs are not illegal in most places. However, I wouldnt call an ex-stripper a "hypocrite" because she was protesting the joint. If it were the case that she experienced the culture there and realized that it abused women, and created a false sense of security or whatever, and she wanted to help other women to avoid this, she would be more than justified to protest.

Posted by: Oliver at November 21, 2008 9:08 PM


I know that some women do indeed regret abortions, but that is no good reason to make it illegal for all.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 2:50 PM


There you go again truth dude.

People think they have good reasons to make abortion illegal, but they don't.

All of then don't.

That's your dogma and your sticking to it.


Posted by: yllas at November 21, 2008 10:02 PM


Doug: "Is there anything wrong with somebody who got their ears pierced, then has a change of heart and protests those who do piercings?"

Oliver: If they felt it was deeply morally wrong? No. Maybe a bit crazy from my point of view, but no, there would be nothing wrong.

Well yeah - "a bit crazy." And likewise for those who feel that abortion is oh-so-bad for everybody because they regret it overall, when all is said and done. It's the same as somebody who doesn't regret having an abortion saying that it's right for everybody.
......


Lets analyze the analogy a bit further.

You said that it was not applicable because abortion is not legal. My analogy compensated for that by introducing the police into the equation. The scope of the analogy was to analyze the relationship between believing a certain way and then later reversing that belief and protesting that belief. The legality of the drug use or abortion is not the question. The question is "Is it nuts to believe a certain way and then change opinions so drastically that you feel lead to prevent people from believing the way you now hold to be universally immoral?" Of course it isnt.

Well, I think you brought up drug use at least in part because it's illegal. People are going to agree with helping the NARCs because of that, often. I do agree that people can change beliefs, and go the opposite way, but "universally immoral" it's not, not before and not after.
.....


Strip clubs are not illegal in most places. However, I wouldnt call an ex-stripper a "hypocrite" because she was protesting the joint. If it were the case that she experienced the culture there and realized that it abused women, and created a false sense of security or whatever, and she wanted to help other women to avoid this, she would be more than justified to protest.

If she had been abused, then I wouldn't argue with her either. But taking our piercing protester's sister, as an analogous example, she's standing outside the tattoo parlor, with a sign saying, "Jodie Cleverink is a tattooist," as if it's a bad thing, and there she is with tattoos all over her.

Same for the ex-stripper. Helping other women avoid that - no problem, but standing outside with a sign saying, "This is a strip club" isn't the same thing.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 10:17 PM


"I know that some women do indeed regret abortions, but that is no good reason to make it illegal for all."

yllas: There you go again truth dude.

Right.
.....


People think they have good reasons to make abortion illegal, but they don't.

Not good enough that their opinion should trump the opinion of the woman who is actually pregnant, no.

Neither should somebody be able to tell a woman with a wanted pregnancy to end it.
.....


All of then don't. That's your dogma and your sticking to it.

Oh yllas... You can do better than that.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 10:20 PM


Dearest Aubrey,
You should be here. You would be 18 years old. Driving, working, studying, babysitting your siblings. Laughing with me. Loving me. I picture you with long, brown hair like your sisters and big, blue eyes. On September 5, 1990, you died. I was distraught even as you grew. I was distraught before the vacuum sucked your body from mine. I was distraught after. Regret hardly conveys the depth of my emotion. A grief and a sorrow that consumes me at times. I can hardly bear it because I did not fight for your life. Fight to protect you. Fight for your right to live and grow and be. I did not place your life before my desperate thoughts of self-preservation. I was deceived into thinking you were a clump of cells, you were nothing, you were not even a baby.
I know what I have done. I carry it. I own it. I live with it. I would give anything to go back there though and tell them all to go to hell, walk out that abortion mill door and embrace your life.
The grief I feel is hardly as big as the love, Aubrey. The love I have for you knows no bounds. The joy I have in knowing that I will see you one day. The hope I feel in telling others about you.
You are my daughter and I will honor your short life in every way that I can.

I love you, Aubrey.
Mommy

Posted by: Carla at November 22, 2008 3:52 AM


People think they have good reasons to make abortion illegal, but they don't.

Not good enough that their opinion should trump the opinion of the woman who is actually pregnant, no.

Neither should somebody be able to tell a woman with a wanted pregnancy to end it.

A typical reply from the dogmatic truth dude.

When are you gonna get it, truth dude?

What's not good enough?

Their opinion of course.


People think that they have a good opinion against abortion, they just think they do.

All of them.

Waitresses think they have a good opinion against my facts,based on time, but she didn't.


Now think, truth dude. Try and be intellectually honest with your self.

You argued to the waitress under FALSE PRETENSES.


Her reasons against your pretenses about time, were not good enough, she just thought they were.

So what she was really arguing with, was another professional
dogmatic drunk, who knew, that her opinion, was just not good enough.

Not even her final word was good enough, while you argued to her with false pretenses, truth dude.


You argued under the false pretense of time, when the truthful argument was "give me another drink, you peasant", while I pretend to you, under false pretenses, it's about the time.


Another false pretense of drunks is, I already payed for my drink, and you have to serve me peasant women, don't you be giving me back my money.


Shall I care to go on, truth dude?

What a typical blow hard. Pretending to people that you have a good argument against them, when you really don't.


But, here's the best part truth dude.

You argued under false pretenses, and your underlings saw and heard that false pretense argument you had with that waitress, and her chain of authority.

Have you beaten those co workers into total submission, truth dude?

Bet not one co worker spoke up, and spoke truth to the power of the truth dude.

Bet they know better to disagree with a person that knows, that no one has a good arguement against them, they just think they do.

Even for a lousy drink.




Posted by: yllas at November 22, 2008 6:04 AM


Bet they know better to disagree with the truth dude, who knows, that no one has a good argument against the truth dude, they just think they do.


Posted by: yllas at November 22, 2008 6:11 AM


I don't know if you want to hear this Carla but you're fighting to protect every baby now. Because of Aubrey other babies will get to live. She must feel honored.

Posted by: Jess at November 22, 2008 11:26 AM


Jess,
I am honored to be her Mom. Thank you for trying to understand my heart for my daughter and the fight for the unborn.

Posted by: Carla at November 22, 2008 12:51 PM


yllas: People think they have good reasons to make abortion illegal, but they don't.

"Not good enough that their opinion should trump the opinion of the woman who is actually pregnant, no.

Neither should somebody be able to tell a woman with a wanted pregnancy to end it."

yllas: What's not good enough? Their opinion of course.

Yes - it is not a compelling argument why we should attempt to bring legal force against women who have abortions prior to viability.

I don't think we should be telling women with wanted pregnancies to end them, and neither should we be telling women with unwanted pregnancies to continue them.

Opinion versus opinion.


Posted by: Doug at November 22, 2008 1:34 PM


You argued to the waitress under FALSE PRETENSES.

Oh baloney yllas. This is just more shrill lunacy from you.

Again, what I posted:

The only place I can recall boycotting for a while was "Longhorn Steakhouse" as opposed to Outback, Texas Roadhouse, etc.

My co-worker and I were in one, Portage, Indiana, literally 30 feet from our motel, and we got in there late, having worked a long day, about an hour before they quit serving food.

We tied into some drinks, planning to order food 15 minutes before the cut-off. We got to within 5 minutes of that time, and the bartender told us she was going to have to cut us off.

:: picture two dumbfounded guys at this point ::

We said we were going to order one more drink, then order food, that we were staying right next door, no driving involved, etc. We'd been nothing but polite and quiet, hadn't made a lick of trouble.

She said sorry but we'd had so many drinks in "X" amount of time..... We asked to see the manager and he agreed with her.

I argued (big surprise there) that it wasn't like we had no tolerance for alcohol or that we weighed 90 lbs., etc. That we were just going to get one drink, put in the food order, eat it when it came out, and leave for the motel next door. He heard us but didn't change his mind.

Shaking our heads, we paid our bill thus far to the penny and out we went. Down the street to a "Quaker Steak and Lube" where we had a few more drinks and got some food. The Longhorn bartender came in, having missed out on a $30 tip, probably, though we did eventually buy her a drink there.

Posted by: Doug at November 22, 2008 1:55 PM


I love you, Aubrey. Mommy

Carla, powerful testimony there.

If there are other "Carla's" out there, conflicted about being pregnant, it'd be good for them to hear what you have to say.

Best,

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 22, 2008 1:58 PM


Doug: "Same for the ex-stripper. Helping other women avoid that - no problem, but standing outside with a sign saying, "This is a strip club" isn't the same thing."

Im confused. I thought you were upset at the idea of protest, not the particular method. I can sort of agree with you here. I dont think that this method was the most effective, but I dont see anything wrong with her intention to protest, as apparently you do not either.

Also, I didnt say it was "universally immoral" I said that she BELIEVED it to be. Now I believe it to be universally immoral, but thats another debate for another time. All I was defending was her sanity in protesting something that she BELIEVED was wrong for everyone period, even though she had done the action in her past.

Posted by: Oliver at November 22, 2008 2:21 PM


Doug: "Same for the ex-stripper. Helping other women avoid that - no problem, but standing outside with a sign saying, "This is a strip club" isn't the same thing."

I'm confused. I thought you were upset at the idea of protest, not the particular method. I can sort of agree with you here. I don't think that this method was the most effective, but I don't see anything wrong with her intention to protest, as apparently you do not either.

Oliver, "Intention to protest" - well, hmm..... It's the presumption that one's subjective feelings necessarily mirror some reality that applies to everybody that I object to. If she was saying, "I had an abortion and I regret it," that makes perfect sense. But saying," this guy is an abortionist" is not saying that.
......


Also, I didnt say it was "universally immoral" I said that she BELIEVED it to be. Now I believe it to be universally immoral, but thats another debate for another time. All I was defending was her sanity in protesting something that she BELIEVED was wrong for everyone period, even though she had done the action in her past.

Okay, I'm not saying she's "insane," but it would be fitting if the doc was standing beside her with a sign saying, "Yes, and she had me do an abortion for her."

Or, as the case may be, "Yes, but she went to another doctor when she chose to have an abortion...." And then there'd be a : (


Picture somebody picketing a smoke shop, with a sign declaring, "They sell cigarettes here."

Most of the guys I work with would be saying, "No kidding, Captain Cuckoo, now get the **** out my way...."


Posted by: Doug at November 22, 2008 4:46 PM


Oh yllas... You can do better than that.

Posted by: Doug at November 21, 2008 10:20 PM


Not from what I've seen.

Posted by: Mary II at November 22, 2008 5:05 PM


I think we may actually have come to some sort of meaningless compromise Doug, but I do need to respond once more...

"It's the presumption that one's subjective feelings necessarily mirror some reality that applies to everybody that I object to."

What is so wrong with this? She believes that innocent lives are being destroyed. She isnt picketing because she regreted her abortion, she is picketing because she now firmly believes that the preborns are having their rights violated. Whether or not you agree, you should certainly see that if you hold a belief similar to that, you would certainly be justified in "applying" to others through protest.

Take for example how women are treated in some Muslim cultures. In those cultures what they are doing is not wrong. Yet wouldnt you feel justified in protesting those cultures for allowing the abuse of women, even if it is justified by their own beliefs?

Its like Jess protesting McDonalds for serving up some delicious cow. Even if she at one time ate cows, which Im sure she did (if she doesnt secretly from time to time) would it invalidate her to protest the chain if she seriously thought that an unjustice was being done to these creatures? Im no vegetarian, but I would respect that protest if it did remain unobtrusive, unlike much of what PETA does. Would you as well?

If the abortionist wants to stand with a clever sign next to her, thats his choice...and I may even laugh. However, she is justified in her protest because of the unjustice that she deeply believes is occuring.

To me it is analogous to Christians trying to convert non-Christians. If we truly believe that non-Christians are missing out on something amazing, or worse, are going to be eternally damned, then by God why am I not out right this second trying to stop this madness?

You cant blame Christians, or anybody, for trying to save you, even you dont believe you need saving. This is the same for this woman here, even if her sign is a little ridiculous.

Posted by: Oliver at November 22, 2008 6:08 PM


She said sorry but we'd had so many drinks in "X" amount of time..... We asked to see the manager and he agreed with her.

Post by truth dude.

Time, being fat, no driving, are all false pretenses.

You argued under the false pretense of time, and more, when the truthful argument was "give me another drink, you peasant", while I pretend to you, under false pretenses, it's about the time.


Another false pretense of drunks is, I already payed for my drink, and you have to serve me peasant women, don't you be giving me back my money.


Your a pretender, truth dude.

A typical drunk lout, arguing for another drink, while using the power of your money to leverage yourself into a position to argue for another drink, under those false pretenses you keep listing at this post board.

I can hold my liquor, and no time factor of X, is going to deny this fat boy another drink,you peasant.

You know truth dude, the first thing that goes through the logic barrel of drunks, is the fact that they always know that no one has a good argument against them having another drink, they just think they do.


Posted by: yllas at November 22, 2008 10:01 PM


I love you, Aubrey.
Mommy

Posted by: Carla at November 22, 2008 3:52 AM

Thank you for posting your letter.

Posted by: Janet at November 22, 2008 10:54 PM


Thank you Doug and Janet.

Posted by: Carla at November 23, 2008 5:47 AM


I think we may actually have come to some sort of meaningless compromise Doug, but I do need to respond once more...

Oliver, no problem, and I wasn't being sarcastic about being glad you and Lauren are here. You both are nicely logical and that means a lot. And you both have a sense of humor. And you both know a lot and can research well and you're both enthusiastic about stuff - all of which I like.
.....


"It's the presumption that one's subjective feelings necessarily mirror some reality that applies to everybody that I object to."

What is so wrong with this? She believes that innocent lives are being destroyed. She isnt picketing because she regreted her abortion, she is picketing because she now firmly believes that the preborns are having their rights violated. Whether or not you agree, you should certainly see that if you hold a belief similar to that, you would certainly be justified in "applying" to others through protest.

What is wrong is that if she's going to be saying, "abortion is wrong," that's one thing. But saying, "this guy is an abortionist" is another. I understand people objecting to abortion, but again, it'd be fitting if somebody was standing next to her with a sign saying "and she had an abortion" (there being a big arrow pointing at her). It's the presumption that somebody seeing the sign would think "bad" about the doctor doing those surgical procedures, including women going in to have them, just as Susan herself did.

I don't think it's a "meaningless compromise," it just stuck me as really odd to have a sign saying that. Meanwhile, I understand people's objections to abortion and don't "blame" them for having them.
.....


Take for example how women are treated in some Muslim cultures. In those cultures what they are doing is not wrong. Yet wouldnt you feel justified in protesting those cultures for allowing the abuse of women, even if it is justified by their own beliefs?

Sure, and again, that protesting is one thing, while holding up a sign saying, "this is a mosque" or "a muslim family lives here" is different.
.....


It's like Jess protesting McDonalds for serving up some delicious cow. Even if she at one time ate cows, which I'm sure she did (if she doesn't secretly from time to time)

Oliver, that made me laugh like hell. I love Jess and doubt she eats meat, at all, but that was a good one.


would it invalidate her to protest the chain if she seriously thought that an unjustice was being done to these creatures? Im no vegetarian, but I would respect that protest if it did remain unobtrusive, unlike much of what PETA does. Would you as well?

I hear you, but again, there's a difference between the concern for animals and saying "they serve beef here."

And as far as being unobtrusive, that's part of it too. The doctor is engaged in legal work, same as the store selling cigarettes. I know people are opposed to it, to varying degrees, but to have the sign worded that way isn't really addressing the concern, same as for "a muslim family lives here."
.....


If the abortionist wants to stand with a clever sign next to her, thats his choice...and I may even laugh. However, she is justified in her protest because of the unjustice that she deeply believes is occuring.

Well, that "justified" is a matter of opinion. It's like somebody standing next to a Christian Church with a sign saying, "False Religion! All you who enter here will BURN IN HELL, for you have been misled into a FALSE RELIGION!" People ain't gonna like that.

I'm not saying such a sign is analogous to "this guy is an abortion doctor," but if we are justifying things on the basis of somebody deeply believing in something....
.....


To me it is analogous to Christians trying to convert non-Christians. If we truly believe that non-Christians are missing out on something amazing, or worse, are going to be eternally damned, then by God why am I not out right this second trying to stop this madness?

I hear you there too, Oliver. There are such beliefs in the world yes, some of them overlapping and/or contradictory. I don't see any resolution to it.
.....


You cant blame Christians, or anybody, for trying to save you, even you dont believe you need saving. This is the same for this woman here, even if her sign is a little ridiculous.

Well, I do think it's a bit hypocritical, as others noted in this thread, and if anything I blame her for the wording of the sign. I think she could do a lot better.

I really don't blame Christians for what they believe. I know a lot of really good people who so believe, many right here on Jill's blog, for that matter.

I've debated abortion for over 12 years now, and by far - the best Pro-Life arguers are here. I've been on several boards over the years, and I've never seen one that can hold a candle to this one.


Best,

Doug

Posted by: Doug at November 23, 2008 9:38 AM


It's like Jess protesting McDonalds for serving up some delicious cow. Even if she at one time ate cows, which I'm sure she did (if she doesn't secretly from time to time)

Oh man, I can just see it - Jess is at her computer, holding a great big piece of prime rib in both hands, reading the message board....

"Son of a ......!

Posted by: Doug at November 23, 2008 9:41 AM


Carla, you're very welcome.

And I hope you realize that my arguments are not directed toward you when you say, "I regret my abortion."

You have done a masterful job of putting across how you felt and how you feel, and I see that (as Hal and others do).

And it does matter to me - I think the world of you.

I fully realize that having an abortion was wrong for you.

Hope this isn't an offensive question, but have you thought about how you'd be had you not had an abortion?

I see it as having put you on a journey from which some good things have come, though I'm not at all saying it's "better" this way.

And here I will admit to being "selfish" - for one thing, your experience is what brought you here, and without it I'd almost surely never have become acquainted with you.


Posted by: Doug at November 23, 2008 9:54 AM


"She said sorry but we'd had so many drinks in "X" amount of time..... We asked to see the manager and he agreed with her."

yllas: Time, being fat, no driving, are all false pretenses.

:: laughing ::

Listen to you. "fat"

There wasn't anything false, not on our part, and not on the part of the bartender or the manager. It was a disagreement, that's all.
.....


You argued under the false pretense of time, and more, when the truthful argument was "give me another drink, you peasant", while I pretend to you, under false pretenses, it's about the time.

That's not true at all, yllas. It is exceedingly unusual to get cut off if you're not visibly drunk, not starting trouble, not getting loud, not getting sleepy, not getting clumsy, knocking things over, etc. We were going to get one more drink then eat. We were not out of line in any way, nor would one more drink have made us out of line. The "you peasant" stuff is your normal BS argument - you're falsely pretending. And you've had an epidemic of this lately, with Mary, Lauren, Oliver, Chris, and many more....
.....

Another false pretense of drunks is, I already payed for my drink, and you have to serve me peasant women, don't you be giving me back my money.

That may be, but we had not already paid, and neither said nor implied any such thing.
......


Your a pretender, truth dude.

Heh - no, you are the pretender, as everybody can see from your "arguments."
.....


A typical drunk lout, arguing for another drink, while using the power of your money to leverage yourself into a position to argue for another drink, under those false pretenses you keep listing at this post board.

No, yllas, the "lout" on Jill's board is unquestionably you - nobody else come close.

A lout posts like you do.

We ended up buying the bartender a drink at the other place.
......


I can hold my liquor, and no time factor of X, is going to deny this fat boy another drink,you peasant.

Well, you have said you've tended bar before, I think, and evidently you've met some people that are that way.

But that wasn't us. We were unfailingly polite, just mighty surprised.
.....


You know truth dude, the first thing that goes through the logic barrel of drunks, is the fact that they always know that no one has a good argument against them having another drink, they just think they do.

Ha! Okay, you're definitely right about that. ; )

Had we been drunk, there wouldn't even have been the story.

Being concerned about patrons leaving, then driving drunk is certainly a valid concern - and that did not apply to us. (We weren't the only ones who were surprised that night - there was a larger group of people who left mad, since they weren't served any more, and they had a totally sober designated driver with them.)

Same for being loud, obnoxious, starting fights, getting sleepy, uncoordinated, etc., and there too that wasn't us.

We'd come in and asked by what time we had to order food, and 10 p.m. was it. Then when the time came they wouldn't give us one more drink, which per all the above was incredibly surprising.

We've since been in other Longhorn Steakhouses - the "boycott" didn't extend forever, and sometimes it's the only thing handy (though I do think Outback kicks it's butt) - and never has there been anything like it. We've even asked other Longhorn bartenders and they thought it odd.

Posted by: Doug at November 23, 2008 10:21 AM


Oliver human's aren't meant to eat meat. I can't eat meat, it makes me physically sick.

There's only one meat product I ever thought I would actually eat if someone was forcing me to eat meat:
http://docwalk.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/lutherburger.jpg

But alas, it would be a waste of money as I would just start throwing up.

But honestly, the likelihood of me eating meat is about the same as Jill eating a baby.

Posted by: Jess at November 23, 2008 12:35 PM


Jess, cheeseburgers with a strip of bacon, and glazed doughnuts as the buns??

Posted by: Doug at November 23, 2008 12:57 PM


Had I not had that abortion Doug, I would have an 18 year old daughter with me today. :) Only God can take what I have done and use me in the way that He is.

Posted by: Carla at November 24, 2008 6:08 AM


Thank you, Carla.

Posted by: Doug at November 24, 2008 8:43 AM