Milgram vs. Roe vs. Wade: Are women being tested?

PajamaMama is a relatively new poster on our site, a post-abortive mother. She has contributed the following fascinating post.

milgram pic2.jpgThis one's not "hot off the presses" per the usual post here, but the oft-cited Milgram Experiment of 1963 at Yale has many possible correlations to the abortion debate.

Why do mothers do it? How can they do it? Why do some mothers regret it? Why do some mothers not regret their abortions and instead choose to even more defensively scream about the "right to choose"?

We all remember Psych 101 in school.

In the Milgram Experiment, Professor Milgram placed subjects in a setup where they were "teachers" required to deliver electric shocks (fake) to unseen "students" (actors) who gave incorrect answers to various questions....

The teachers didn't know they were actually the ones being studied, to determine what factors, if any, would cause them to do obvious harm to another person.

Factors included strength of authority figure, distance from victim, legitimacy of authority figure, and distance from authority.

There are obvious correlations between this experiment and the abortion phenomenon.

Who are the "teachers" (subjects)? Who are the "students"? Who are the "experimenters"?

There was a marked decrease in compliance when the perpetrator's distance from the victim was decreased. The closer the teacher person was to the victim, the less likely s/he would deliver the 450 volt shock.

It seems to me the fact that aborting mothers don't have to see their unborn babies or do any of the dirty work makes it much easier for them to do something otherwise against their beliefs.

If aborting mothers were required to see their unborn babies (informed consent / ultrasound laws), the abortion rate should automatically go down.

The "level of authority" factor is alive and well here, too. In a nutshell, because the government says abortion is legal, it must be ok, right?

68% of the teachers/experiment subjects were finally willing to deliver the 450 volt shock. Interesting to me is consideration of the aftermath for these subjects. I imagine their sense of identity may have been utterly destroyed by being shown how they could easily do something that they, in a normal situation, would consider purely evil and vile. Talk about violating a person's sense of self.

That is how I feel as a post-abortive mother. I have to live every day with the knowledge that I was too weak to resist authority, legitimacy, and distance from the victim and to reject abortion as a plausible solution to my crisis pregnancy.


Comments:

This is some very interesting food for thought.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 10:36 AM


As long as pregnancy continues to be thought of as a "crisis" (something that you antis perpetuate with your "Crisis Pregancy Centers"), there will continue to be abortions, whether or not the mother's right to privacy is violated by forcing her to view an ultrasound of her fetus.

If you all want to reduce pregnancies, you should work toward eliminating the stigma and economic hardship that our society places on single mothers. Let's look at our work laws for starters. Some states mandate three months of UNPAID leave for new mothers, other states no leave at all. This was hard enough for us as a married couple having a kid...how is a single mother supposed to survive it? I think they get six months of PAID leave in the UK...a difference that would have huge impact on pregnant women considering the viability of motherhood. Let's look at the lousy and expensive daycare options available in this country, too. Again, this is painful for us as a fairly well off married couple. How is a lower income couple or single mother supposed to afford it?

Finally, with you antis out there preaching abstinence left and right, pregnancy is a pretty big clue that a girl has been naughty, and done something frowned upon. Is it any wonder that she would try to hide the evidence? As long as you maintain this unattainable standard of chastity (human nature being what it is), there will be abortions among women trying to appear to meet it.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 10:43 AM


I wonder how many women would abort, if abortion were designed in such a way, that a pill was taken and the woman only had the option to deliver the dead "fetus" at home?

The analogy is interesting, but not having studied psychology (which I consider a psuedo science) I wonder about the aspect of coercion. Studies have shown that abortive mothers often experience a substantial amount of coercion and pressure to abort from the baby's father, parents, and friends. Even ambivalence to abortion (it's your decision etc.) can play a significant part in a woman's decision.

How much support did PJ mama have? Pregnancy is not a great time to make a crisis decision.

Posted by: Patricia at March 17, 2008 10:46 AM


A lot of moms murder their children without coercion from others. Let's not make victims out of willing murderers.

A law that says "See your baby with an ultrasound....and then you can kill the baby" is a very bad law because it regulates abortion.

Damn anyone that supports such a law. May their days be few and another take their office.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 10:52 AM


RAy,
I certainly agree with the first part of your post. The maternity leave in the US is simply terrible. In Canada a woman get's a year maternity - its the law! I believe some European countries have longer periods of maternity or the company has to hold the woman's job for several years.

However, chastity is not an UNATTAINABLE standard. It is a sacrificial choice which has enormous benefits for women in particular because they don't have to worry about a crisis pregnancy! People are TOLD over and over today that it is unhealthy and not possible.

And, I don't think unwed pregnancy has such a stigma that once was attached to it - otherwise you wouldn't see Jamie Lynn splashed all over the covers of rags.

Posted by: Patricia at March 17, 2008 10:53 AM


Zeke
I don't think you have a CLUE as to how terribly some women are pressured to abort. For heaven's sake, there's even been a situation where a young woman was kidnapped by her own PARENTS who tried to drive her across state lines to get an abortion. They got off with a slap on the wrist.

I've seen women walked in to abortion clinics by parents and boyfriends/husbands whose sole purpose was to make sure "it" was taken care of.

Have a little compassion and mercy, please!

Posted by: Patricia at March 17, 2008 10:56 AM


Patricia blathered in a condescending tone towards me:

"I don't think you have a CLUE as to how terribly some women are pressured to abort. For heaven's sake, there's even been a situation where a young woman was kidnapped by her own PARENTS who tried to drive her across state lines to get an abortion. They got off with a slap on the wrist."

So, out of 3,000+ abortions each day, over 1 million per year, you bring up a couple of anecdotes. Wow, you really got me there!

When God says "your eye shall not pity" when executing a convicted murderer I take that as something I should do rather than doing the opposite which is what you are doing - pitying murderers. Real, cold-blooded murderers who murder their children.

Deuteronomy 19:21 "Your eye shall not pity: life [shall be] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

This is one of the pillars of criminal justice. We need less post-abortion focus and sympathy and more focus on the re-criminalization of murder where the convicted murderers of children are executed without pity.

God and I want to see justice brought about which means executing convicted murderers. I am done with sympathy for those who murder their children. I will let them all know that they should be brought to trial and upon conviction executed. Enough with this spineless, woman-lead balogney by pro-life groups! God give us men with spines!

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 11:08 AM


While I agree with some of the things Ray points out, KILLING the child is not the answer, and never will be...yet, many women do see it as the only alternative at times.

Until this society we live in returns to placing VALUE, WORTH, and SANCTITY on unborn human life, abortion will remain an option, legal or not.

In addition, until people return to regarding sex as sacred, and are willing to take responsibility for the CONSEQUENCES OF ENGAGING IN IT, and the fact that NO method of birth control is 100 % effective (except abstinence) we will not eliminate abortion entirely.

ACCOUNTABILITY and RESPONSIBILITY, unfortunately, can't be mandated by law.

Would that it could.

Posted by: Mike at March 17, 2008 11:09 AM



Patricia blathered in a condescending tone towards me:
"I don't think you have a CLUE as to how terribly some women are pressured to abort. For heaven's sake, there's even been a situation where a young woman was kidnapped by her own PARENTS who tried to drive her across state lines to get an abortion. They got off with a slap on the wrist."
So, out of 3,000+ abortions each day, over 1 million per year, you bring up a couple of anecdotes. Wow, you really got me there!

Zeke, I think this happens more often than you realize.

And why must you be so cruel in your response to Patricia? She was not being condescending to you. She was trying to help you see her point of view.
Calling her post "blathering" is simply rude and uncalled for.

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 11:17 AM


I have my doubts that the socialist policies advocated by Ray would lower the rate of abortion in the United States. After all, the former U.S.S.R. was a “socialist paradise” and the average Russian woman had six abortions in her lifetime.

Posted by: Bismarck at March 17, 2008 11:22 AM


Zeke,
You have no business seeking vengeance! Vengeance belongs to God alone. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy! We hate the act, but not the person! They need our love and compassion to draw them back to God. God will deal in His own time with those who have perpetrated this injustice on our nations.

Both women and unborn children are victims in the abortion holocaust.
These women have enough self-loathing and hurt to last them a lifetime and then some!

Posted by: Patricia at March 17, 2008 11:26 AM


Zeke- Didn't Jesus kinda go against that in the New Testament?

"You have heard that they were told an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but what I tell you is this: Never set yourself against a man who wrongs you. So when someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn, and offer him your left."

Posted by: Erin at March 17, 2008 11:35 AM


In addition, until people return to regarding sex as sacred, and are willing to take responsibility for the CONSEQUENCES OF ENGAGING IN IT

Mike, as long as people like you have attitudes like this, women will abort pregancies to avoid having to face you.

I have my doubts that the socialist policies advocated by Ray would lower the rate of abortion in the United States. After all, the former U.S.S.R. was a “socialist paradise” and the average Russian woman had six abortions in her lifetime.

Bismarck, paid maternal leave is socialist? Perhaps you ought to read A Day in the Life of Joe Conservative.
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2008/3/3/155912/4254/Diary/A-Day-In-The-Life-Of-Joe-Conservative
Regarding the USSR, a few pregnancy-friendly government policies are a bit different from a communist dictatorship with chronic shortages of indoor heating fuel and awash in cheap vodka. Socialist paradise, indeed.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 11:47 AM


"The maternity leave in the US is simply terrible. In Canada a woman get's a year maternity - its the law! I believe some European countries have longer periods of maternity or the company has to hold the woman's job for several years."

Leave is bad in the US, agreed, but I'm curious, does Canada, and do these European countries, have a lower abortion rate than the US? In other words, does availability of maternity leave have any affect on abortion rates?

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 11:50 AM


Oh look! Erin the atheist understands Christianity better than a certain "Christian" poster...

Posted by: mk at March 17, 2008 11:51 AM


I wish I could have "faced" Mike when I was in a crisis pregnancy. One supportive person in my life back then, who told me the truth and I would have a 17 year old daughter with me today.

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 11:56 AM


The "level of authority" factor is alive and well here, too. In a nutshell, because the government says abortion is legal, it must be ok, right?

No. Depends on what is wanted. What is right for one woman obviously won't be for another, necessarily.
......

That is how I feel as a post-abortive mother. I have to live every day with the knowledge that I was too weak to resist authority, legitimacy, and distance from the victim and to reject abortion as a plausible solution to my crisis pregnancy.

There was no guarantee you were making the best decision, but that's just the way it is. You were free to make what you thought was you best choice, and that's important. "Resist authority"? You did what many women do with an unwanted pregnancy, and that which they decide is best, and that which they would do again in similar circumstances. There's no way to say there won't be regrets, and the same is true for continuing pregnancies and giving birth.

Posted by: Doug at March 17, 2008 12:05 PM


What many have overlooked here is the correlation between aborting mothers and the unwitting subjects of this experiment (an experiment that was later deemed to be highly unethical).

The point is that otherwise caring and intelligent people were easily manipulated into doing something that was completely against their stated morals and values, simply because someone in authority told them that it was acceptable. These were not jerks off the street; these subjects were mostly Yale grad students of the highest intelligence and moral fabric. And the only personal stake they had in following instructions to shock another human being was to avoid the uncomfortable situation of refusing and walking out of the experiment and maybe the small amount of money that they were paid to participate.

Similarly, pregnant women who may not be in the best situations, see abortion clinics in every town, see that it's legal, and hear the rhetoric that "it's not a person" and "it's your right" so, in their panic, they view abortion as just another viable option. And, they never haved to "see" the victim, nor "hear" the victim, nor "feel" the victim, so it is that much easier to do the deed. And, many times, what they have to lose by not going through with the abortion (in their minds anyway) is social standing, opportunities for future relationships, financial hardship, and a plethora of other sociological stigma.

It's interesting to note that many of the unwitting "teachers" in this experiment did not have a negative aftermath to speak of. But, there was one person who DID need psychological counseling to deal with some negative ramifications of finding out that they were in fact capable of doing something terrible that they previously thought that they would never do. THAT was enough to have deemed the experiment to be unethical. Serious ethical standards were put in place after this study, which included extensive "informed consent" guidelines that are still lacking in abortion clinics. Women simply are not told all of the facts about fetal development, possible health effects (sterility, breast cancer, post-abortion stress and anxiety) because they aren't conducive to the goal of getting as many "teachers" to participate as possible.

Similarly with abortion, we see that many women don't regret their decision, but that many DO. However, the ones who regret their actions are discounted and no one wants to view that as evidence that there is an element of abortion that also victimizes women, not just unborn babies.

So, to answer my own questions:

The "experimenters" are: The U.S. Government, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, NOW, and various medical associations that support abortion.

The "teachers" are: pregnant mothers

The "learners" are: unborn babies (although they're obviously not in on the experiment like the actors were in the Milgram Experiment)

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 12:07 PM


If aborting mothers were required to see their unborn babies (informed consent / ultrasound laws), the abortion rate should automatically go down.

I don't see much wrong with offering a woman the chance to look, but you can't force a woman to look if she doesn't want to.

The "level of authority" factor is alive and well here, too. In a nutshell, because the government says abortion is legal, it must be ok, right?

Baloney! Abortion is one of the most hated and stigmatized things a woman can do. Didn't you notice the protesters around the clinic when you went for your abortion? Sex-obsessed Christians rarely even bother with the strip clubs and adult bookstores anymore - slut-shaming at the abortion clinic is a weekly ritual.

The best way to reduce abortion rates is to prevent unplanned pregnancies by making contraception more available. Half of all abortions are caused by the 11% of sexually active women who aren't using contraception. By making contraception easier to obtain, especially for poor and young women, we can easily cut the abortion rate in half.

PajamaMama, were you using contraception when you got pregnant? Just curious.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:14 PM


"Sex-obsessed Christians rarely even bother with the strip clubs and adult bookstores anymore - slut-shaming at the abortion clinic is a weekly ritual."

It's because abortion isn't about SEX - nobody gives a flippin' darn about people's sex lives. It's about a basic human rights issue - it's about the lives of the babies, not the sex-lives of the mothers!

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:20 PM


However, the ones who regret their actions are discounted and no one wants to view that as evidence that there is an element of abortion that also victimizes women, not just unborn babies.

You know, if a woman regrets giving birth (and many do), we don't turn around and hold that up as proof that birth is bad, or that it "victimizes women."

Likewise, the fact that a few women regret their abortions doesn't mean that abortion is bad or that it "victimizes women."

Both birth and abortion are choices that women make for themselves. Nobody forced you to have an abortion. You could have said no.

I gave birth as a teenager and no one pressured me to abort, so in my experience, American society does not pressure anyone in to abortion. If anything, women are routinely pressured out of it.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:23 PM


It's about a basic human rights issue - it's about the lives of the babies, not the sex-lives of the mothers!

This is where you're wrong, Anonymous. It's all about sex -- who's allowed to have it, who isn't, and how they're allowed to have it. It's why "pro-lifers" also fight against birth control and gay rights.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:27 PM


PajamaMama, I left a comment on your blog but I don't know if it went through. It was about "the only moral abortion is my abortion."

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:27 PM


reality,

Um, there were no protesters at the abortion clinic when I went for my abortion. Had there been, I may not be here talking to you about my heartbreak today.

And yes, I was in a monogamous relationship and on birth control pills that I got from Planned Parenthood. But, I was never very good at taking them regularly...after all, why worry, I could always have an abortion, right? Like it or not, that's the message that is sent every day by the legality of abortion.

Just a reminder; The vast majority of aborting mothers were using birth control at the time they became pregnant. It's Planned Parenthood's official method of giving women a false sense of security so that more of them get pregnant and keep the abortion business going.

- Official chances of getting pregnant while on the pill; 1%

- REAL chances of getting pregnant while on the pill, based on actual adherence to proper use: 9%

And don't get me started on the fallibility of condoms.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 12:27 PM


I think it's way more than 11%. I think I read somewhere (can't remember where) that almost half were not using contraception.

"By making contraception easier to obtain, especially for poor and young women, we can easily cut the abortion rate in half."

But, that being said, can someone please explain - how is contraception difficult to obtain? You walk into a drug store, and for a paltry amount of money, you buy some condoms; you can even go on-line in total privacy and buy them for 7 or 8 bucks for a package of 12 - for example:

http://www.safesense.com/condoms-trojan.shtml

For the young people, college student health centers are usually chock full of contraceptives and condoms (at least were in my day).

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:29 PM


"It's because abortion isn't about SEX - nobody gives a flippin' darn about people's sex lives."

So no one cares that people (teens like me maybe?) are having premarital sex?

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:29 PM


I have been having sex with only the pill for.... about seven months and no pregnancy yet.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:31 PM


"This is where you're wrong, Anonymous. It's all about sex -- who's allowed to have it, who isn't, and how they're allowed to have it. It's why "pro-lifers" also fight against birth control and gay rights."

Not for me, reality. I've been on both sides, and I used to think that too. Now that I'm PL, I can see the utter inanity of that view point. I really could care less about people's sex lives, except to the extent that if their sexual practices lead to a new life, they not simply throw that new life away like garbage.

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:33 PM


Jess-

No, I don't care that you are having sex. I would advise against it, and I would explain clearly and in detail why I advise against it, but I would not condemn you for it, and I certainly would not view any resulting pregnancy as a "punishment".


S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:38 PM


Why don't you think I should have sex? No I really care what you have to say. I'm not being sarcastic. I really want to hear it.

That really wasn't sarcastic at all. No sarcasm. Continue.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:40 PM


And yes, I was in a monogamous relationship and on birth control pills that I got from Planned Parenthood. But, I was never very good at taking them regularly...after all, why worry, I could always have an abortion, right?

You wanted to have an abortion? You really thought it was OK? You didn't think there was anything wrong with it at all? Seriously?

If you thought there was nothing wrong with it, what makes you think that an ultrasound or protesters would have changed your mind?

The vast majority of aborting mothers were using birth control at the time they became pregnant.

That's actually wrong. 54% of women who have abortions were using contraception and 46% were not.

54% of abortions come from the 89% of women who use contraception, and 46% come from the 11% who do not. It's obvious that contraception makes abortion much less likely.

http://tinyurl.com/5wley

It's Planned Parenthood's official method of giving women a false sense of security so that more of them get pregnant and keep the abortion business going.

Women are far more likely to have an abortion if they are not using contraception.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:42 PM


Jess -

Seriously, I wasn't going to get into that because I didn't think that you would really want to know! I'm glad you'd like to hear. I would like to get into some detail about it, but I am at work right now and should not take the time to write a major, lengthy post. I will do so this evening though.

Just for my info in answering - how old are you? Answer will be generally the same, but age could make certain things relevant/irrelevant.

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:44 PM


I'm 19. I'll be twenty in June.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:46 PM


Jess and Jasper,

Thanks for the blog comments. So far, my blog has been a private journey. I've been blogging to an "audience of one" (myself) for so long that I've never had to moderate and publish a comment before! Thanks for participating and adding to my effort.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 12:47 PM


Ray,

What would your suggestion be for the the renaming of "crisis" pregnancy centers then? Some pregnancies occur that ARE a crisis for women to have to deal with. What's wrong with calling it what it is?

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 12:48 PM


And yes, I was in a monogamous relationship and on birth control pills that I got from Planned Parenthood. But, I was never very good at taking them regularly...

The responsible thing to do, knowing that you were not good at taking them regularly, would have been to seek out a different method of birth control. The pill is just SO twentieth century! Today we have the Ortho Evra patch, or better yet the NuvaRing, which only needs to be changed once a month.

I don't really accept the premise that the birth control failed, if you yourself admit that you weren't using it properly.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 12:48 PM


I think it's way more than 11%. I think I read somewhere (can't remember where) that almost half were not using contraception.

Wrong. 11% of sexually active, fertile women not trying to conceive are not using contraception.

But, that being said, can someone please explain - how is contraception difficult to obtain?

11% of women are going without -- that is obviously a problem.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:48 PM


By "protesters" do you mean those that stand outside abortion clinics and pray? Hand out literature? Talk about fetal development? Refer women to CPC's? Oh, and pray?
There were none when I went either.

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 12:50 PM


I have been having sex with only the pill for.... about seven months and no pregnancy yet.

I've been using birth control -- first the pill, then an IUD -- from Planned Parenthood for almost 10 years now. No pregnancies yet!

It's amazing to me that anyone could be dumb enough to think birth control makes pregnancy more likely, when it's so obvious that it makes it WAY less likely.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:51 PM


PajamaMama, I think this is a great post.

reality, did you know that about 80% of self-described pro-lifers are actually pro-contraception? Unfortunately, the ones who are opposed to it have a wildly disproportionate amount of influence.

Posted by: Jen R at March 17, 2008 12:54 PM


What do you propose reality? Would you like to force women to use contraception because YOU think they should? Maybe they don't want to...that's their right.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 12:55 PM


Carla that's fine as long as they aren't screaming and spitting on people. It happens. A person shouldn't be harassed into having a child as much as the shouldn't be harassed into not having one.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 12:56 PM


"Wrong. 11% of sexually active, fertile women not trying to conceive are not using contraception."

I see what you are talking about - I misread your previous post. What I previously read was that almost 1/2 of women seeking abortions were not using BC: (as you wrote) "That's actually wrong. 54% of women who have abortions were using contraception and 46% were not." The 46% is what I was thinking of.

"11% of women are going without -- that is obviously a problem."

Well, we still don't know why they are going without. While it may be a problem, is the problem necessarily one of access? We simply don't know. In my experience not - I was once young and poor, and never had a problem accessing contraceptives (back in the day, when I actually used them).

S.


Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:57 PM


What do you propose reality? Would you like to force women to use contraception because YOU think they should? Maybe they don't want to...that's their right.

Maybe they enjoy having abortion after abortion! Taking a pill every day is boring! Suuure, Elizabeth.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:58 PM


I've gotta tell you Jess..I've never seen a pro-lifer spit on someone going in for an abortion.

It's not a real great way to make friends and influence people.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 12:59 PM


thanks Jess - I will get back to you tonight!

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 12:59 PM


Hi Jess,
Speaking the truth in love does not involve spitting or screaming.
PL's and PC's can all exhibit hate but Elizabeth is right, it hardly helps anyone.

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 1:05 PM


Well, we still don't know why they are going without. While it may be a problem, is the problem necessarily one of access? We simply don't know.

Yes, we do.

Western European countries have tiny abortion rates compared to the US, because their citizens have universal health care, which means that everyone has a family doctor where they can get contraception, which is FREE. They also have much more generous welfare programs and paid maternity leave.

When the US does the same, abortion rates will plummet.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 1:07 PM


Elizabeth, there are some bad pro-lifers just like there are some bad pro-choicer's. On a pro-choice group on facebook we get a lot of troll coming in and saying a lot of really terrible, hateful things. Most personal and not even very relevant.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 1:09 PM


reality said: You wanted to have an abortion? You really thought it was OK? You didn't think there was anything wrong with it at all? Seriously?

If you thought there was nothing wrong with it, what makes you think that an ultrasound or protesters would have changed your mind?

PJMama says:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't crazy about the idea of the invasiveness of the procedure, and I did have reservations about the fetal development, but when I asked in a quiet voice "how big is it now?" the lady just told me with a wave of her hand that it was a blob of cells like a blood clot and then asked if I had the money. I was too naive and too scared of this abrasive office manager/den mother-type woman to press the issue further. You have to realize too that this was well before the internet (1989). It's not like I could just look up scientific information on a whim. And I also thought (wrongly) that if I asked these people at the abortion clinic, who are supposedly medical professionals, that they would tell me the truth. I was wrong. I left there thinking that the procedure simply removed a blood clot the size of a pea, and there's nothing that would have convinced the abortionists to give me information that challenged that belief, even when asked point-blank, because that would not have been good for business. I had some regrets afterward, but only for what I thought could-have-been.

It wasn't until later after I was married and decided to have children that my pregnancies thrust facts in my face that those abortionists were all-too-anxious to hide from me. The humanity of the unborn was presented to me in the form of my own children in their sonograms. And after their births, the reality became more and more apparent until the guilt became unbearable. I had killed a living human being at the 12th week of gestation, whom I now know from experience and through internet research to have been approximately 2 inches long from crown to rump and quite well-defined and identifiable as a human being. It's amazing what information you can avoid for so many years when you don't really want to have your ideas challenged. Can you imagine LOOKING for evidence that would prove to yourself that you murdered another human being? Believe me, it's not fun.

So, no reality, I did not WANT to have an abortion. No reality, I did not feel that it was NO BIG DEAL. But I didn't dread it for the reasons that I should have. I didn't know that I was killing a human being because no one who had anything to gain from me doing so was going to be the one to tell me.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 1:11 PM


the lady just told me with a wave of her hand that it was a blob of cells like a blood clot

And people whine about how unfair it is to single about abortion in informed-consent laws. Maybe if abortion providers didn't lie to patients, they wouldn't need specific laws!

Posted by: Jen R at March 17, 2008 1:17 PM


What would your suggestion be for the the renaming of "crisis" pregnancy centers then? Some pregnancies occur that ARE a crisis for women to have to deal with. What's wrong with calling it what it is?

Elizabeth, if every life is sacred and wonderful the way the antis ceaselessly drone on about, then how could a pregnancy possibly be a crisis? I stand by my point that if you want to reduce abortions, you should change the socio-economic factors that cause women to consider pregnancy a crisis.

To answer your question, however, it seems to me that an accurate name might be "Pro-Life Pregancy Center" or "Non-Abortion Pregancy Center." At least then women would know what they are getting into before they walk through the door.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 1:19 PM


Western European countries have tiny abortion rates compared to the US, because their citizens have universal health care, which means that everyone has a family doctor where they can get contraception, which is FREE. They also have much more generous welfare programs and paid maternity leave.

When the US does the same, abortion rates will plummet.

Amen! Further reading on the subject:
Reducing the U.S. abortion rate - Comparing adolescent pregnancy and abortion rates in the U.S. with Europe
http://www.religioustolerance.org/pregadol.htm

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 1:27 PM


Ray said: The responsible thing to do, knowing that you were not good at taking them regularly, would have been to seek out a different method of birth control. The pill is just SO twentieth century! Today we have the Ortho Evra patch, or better yet the NuvaRing, which only needs to be changed once a month.

I don't really accept the premise that the birth control failed, if you yourself admit that you weren't using it properly.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 12:48 PM

PJMama says:
It's important that you understand that my assessment of my carelessness with taking my bc pills was not formulated WHILE I WAS ON THE PILL at age 20, but only in hindsight at the age of 39. It was obviously not made perfectly clear to me by the bc pill provider (PP) the importance of taking it consistently each day at the same exact time of day. And, again, the wide availability of abortion was marketing as an easy back-up plan.

But you mistakenly assume that all people are perfect and that they follow directions to the letter. Just like pro-aborts are fond of the anti-abstinence stance of "the reality is that kids are going to have sex anyway" the medical community simply chooses to ignore the "typical use" factors when determining the efficacy of birth control. Instead of looking at real-world statistics and adjusting the published failure rates to reflect that, they instead insist on publicizing the "best case scenario" at the peril of the consumer AND of the babies who are brought into existence because of their lack of honesty.

Again, this was 1989 and there weren't the array of bc options that you young folks enjoy today.

Wow, it just occurred to me that I'm officially old...no offense to other 40-somethings out there.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 1:37 PM


reality said:
It's amazing to me that anyone could be dumb enough to think birth control makes pregnancy more likely, when it's so obvious that it makes it WAY less likely.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:51 PM

PJMama says:
reality, please refrain from calling people "dumb". It adds nothing to this debate and makes you look "dumb".

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 1:39 PM


you should change the socio-economic factors that cause women to consider pregnancy a crisis.

Ray,

There are other factors that make women consider a pregnancy a crisis than money you know. Let's say there's a 14-year old who is wealthy. I would still consider her pregnancy one in crisis. It takes a lot more than money to be a good parent.

But anyway, I don't have a problem with the name change...I just don't think that denying that pregnancies occur to women in crisis changes the fact that it DOES happen. And ok, let's say we change the name to "Pro-Life Pregnancy Center." What if a woman who considers herself pro-choice finds herself in the situation with an unplanned pregnancy and she doesn't know what to do. Maybe she doesn't think this pregnancy center can help her since she doesn't think she qualifies as being "pro-life." Then she doesn't seek out the help that she maybe wants/needs. At least calling it a "crisis pregnancy center" allows women to know that this place applies to them. Do you understand what I'm saying?


Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 1:47 PM


I was too naive and too scared of this abrasive office manager/den mother-type woman to press the issue further.

What made you go to the clinic in the first place?

I left there thinking that the procedure simply removed a blood clot the size of a pea,

You really thought it was a blood clot, not an embryo?

You have to realize too that this was well before the internet (1989). It's not like I could just look up scientific information on a whim.

I believe they had libraries back in 1989. You could have gone and found dozens of pregnancy books. Or you could have looked in books at a book store. That's what I did when I got pregnant. Why didn't you?

It wasn't until later after I was married and decided to have children that my pregnancies thrust facts in my face that those abortionists were all-too-anxious to hide from me. The humanity of the unborn was presented to me in the form of my own children in their sonograms.

You seriously didn't know what a fetus looked like until your own pregnancy? What stopped you from looking up this information for so many years?

You were curious enough to ask at the abortion clinic, but not curious enough to go to a library or book store and find out for yourself? Please.

It sounds to me like you had your mind made up and didn't want to know anything about pregnancy.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 1:50 PM


reality said:
It's amazing to me that anyone could be dumb enough to think birth control makes pregnancy more likely, when it's so obvious that it makes it WAY less likely.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 12:51 PM

PJMama says:
It also says a lot about you that you would look at this in such a utilitarian way. You are making your statement under the assumption that the number of people having sex would stay the same were there no such thing as birth control. But that is a mistake. While the use of birth control, when it's the only changing factor, reduces the rate of pregnancy, the existence of birth control actually encourages more sexual activity, resulting in an overall increased NUMBER of unwanted pregnancies. In this way, birth control has actually increased the number of abortions, instead of reducing them.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 1:52 PM


Maybe they enjoy having abortion after abortion! Taking a pill every day is boring! Suuure, Elizabeth.

You didn't answer my question Reality.

Would you like BC to be mandated?

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 1:53 PM


"You seriously didn't know what a fetus looked like until your own pregnancy? What stopped you from looking up this information for so many years?"

I think she answered that - she was in denial... she didn't WANT to know.

S.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 1:54 PM


Thanks S. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

I was uninformed about fetal development before I got pregnant,

I made the mistake of relying on the abortion "professionals" for information about fetal development after I got pregnant and before my abortion

Then I went into 13 years of denial and avoidance of fetal developmet informaton after my abortion.

reality, the next time you or a family member are diagnosed with an illness or are told that you will have surgery, let me know how it feels to ask a question and be told to "go look it up at the library".

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 2:03 PM


Bethany said:

"Zeke, I think this happens more often than you realize."

Nope. I'm sure that you think it happens more often than it does.

Patricia claimed:

"Zeke,
You have no business seeking vengeance! Vengeance belongs to God alone. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy! We hate the act, but not the person! They need our love and compassion to draw them back to God. God will deal in His own time with those who have perpetrated this injustice on our nations."

I hate the person because Jesus said that evil acts come from an evil person's heart (Matthew 15). An act is not an entity that you can hate. You can only hate the person who uses their volition to commit any and all acts. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is a mindless, retarded Christian cliche that is false and evil.

God does not say "Don't worry at all about justice, cause I'll deal with it in My own time" as you claim Patricia. God says not to pity the convicted murderer being executed. You claim to know better than God since you say we should do otherwise.

Patricia claimed:

"Both women and unborn children are victims in the abortion holocaust."

WRONG! These moms are cold blooded murderers the great majority of them. And that's why they must be brought to trial and upon conviction swiftly, painfully and publicly executed.

Erin asked:

"Zeke- Didn't Jesus kinda go against that in the New Testament?"

No, He didn't. He taught about personal interaction and how that was different than the government carrying out justice. Jesus upheld the death penalty throughout the New Testament and so did Paul, the author of Hebrews and the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation.

Matthew 15:3-5 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God"] --Jesus Christ supporting the death penalty He gave to Moses

Also read Acts 25:11; Rom 13:1-4; 1 Tim 1:8-11; Hebrews 10:26-29 for more New Testament support of the death penalty.

FYI - God did not change from being pro-justice to being anti-justice.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 2:03 PM


mk muttered:

"Oh look! Erin the atheist understands Christianity better than a certain "Christian" poster..."

If you think that Jesus Christ opposed the death penalty that HE GAVE to MOses and taught all Israel to obey during His earthly ministry then you worship a false christ and promote a concept of God that is currently at odds with Himself.

Hey mk, do you deny that Jesus upheld the death penalty in Matthew 15 and Mark 7 when He upheld the law He gave in Ex 21:17?

I do not expect an intelligent response to this question from you, but you can at least try.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 2:09 PM


Zeke,

Go spew your fundamentalist garbage somewhere else. Thank you. Do you happen to be a member of WBC? If not, you guys should talk..I am sure you have LOTS in common.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 2:09 PM


You are making your statement under the assumption that the number of people having sex would stay the same were there no such thing as birth control. But that is a mistake.

No, this is not a mistake at all. People today do not have more sex than they did in the past; they're just allowed to be honest about it now.

While the use of birth control, when it's the only changing factor, reduces the rate of pregnancy, the existence of birth control actually encourages more sexual activity, resulting in an overall increased NUMBER of unwanted pregnancies.

This is not only untrue, but preposterous. Hormonal birth control is 95-99% effective. There would have to be a hundred times more people having sex just to match the number of pregnancies that occurred before the pill.

The truth is that since the '60s, when birth control was legalized, women have far fewer pregnancies, and far fewer unwanted pregnancies.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html

Look at the figures. Birth rates were above 25 per 1000 women up until the '60s, then fell to about 15 per 1000 by the late '70s and have remained about that low up to the present day.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 2:10 PM


Is that the best response you can come up with Elizabeth? Not surprising since you're just another spineless girl who wants to do nothing but coddle some of the worst murderers imaginable - those who murder their own children.

Yes, I think coddle is an appropriate term here.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 2:12 PM


Zeke:
Interesting how you link to the "Human Life Awareness Campaign" website. But, that doesn't make sense. You say that aborting mothers are cold-blooded murderers, but that implies that they know exactly what they're doing. Then why the need for an awareness campaign?

The fact is that the information you link to IS being hidden from the world, but through the internet, is being exposed to more and more people on a daily basis. The word "murder" implies killing with foresight and planning. But in order for there to be foresight and planning, the aborting mother would have to know all of the facts. In my case and even most others to this day, that is not the case. Women are being lied to. Thus, they cannot be called murderers. They are the secondary victims.

Your stance is not helping to endear the pro-life cause to the millions of post-abortive mothers in the world. THESE are the people who will be successfully used by the pro-life side to change hearts. WE are ones who have been there. WE are the remaining living victims of abortion who still have a voice to cry out about the damage that it causes. DON'T alienate us.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 2:16 PM


PajamaMama said:

"Similarly, pregnant women who may not be in the best situations, see abortion clinics in every town, see that it's legal, and hear the rhetoric that "it's not a person" and "it's your right" so, in their panic, they view abortion as just another viable option. And, they never haved to "see" the victim, nor "hear" the victim, nor "feel" the victim, so it is that much easier to do the deed."

See, the reason why MOST of these murderous moms are doing something contrary to their beliefs and morality is precisely because they KNOW that they are murdering a baby person. I have run across very few people who have aborted or been part of an abortion that did not realize they were aborting a little person despite all of the "glob of cells" balogney the pro-aborts try to shove down their throats through the anti-Christ public school curriculums (which most churches say is just fine for their children to be taught with - because their incouragable fools).

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 2:18 PM


zeke13:19 -
Leave Elizabeth alone! She is a wonderful, good person who is doing more to help the world then you could even imagine.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 2:23 PM


zeke, try as you might, you will NEVER be able to make me feel worse than I make myself feel. So your words have absolutely no effect.

Your hateful words simply serve to inflate your own ego by capitalizing on the unfortunate ignorance and victimization of others. You're doing nothing but giving the pro-life side a bad name AND you're playing right into the hands of the pro-aborts.

But if it makes you feel better to gloat at the suffering of others, please continue. It's actually quite entertaining to see you work yourself into a lather.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 2:24 PM


Is that the best response you can come up with Elizabeth? Not surprising since you're just another spineless girl who wants to do nothing but coddle some of the worst murderers imaginable - those who murder their own children.

Yes, I think coddle is an appropriate term here.

Lol...seriously, thanks for the laugh zeke.

People, I think we have an actual member of the WBC on our hands here.

But actually, Zeke, I would like to do more than just coddle them. I want to help them seek forgiveness from God and themselves.

Which is WAY more than I can say for you.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 2:25 PM


No, He didn't. He taught about personal interaction and how that was different than the government carrying out justice. Jesus upheld the death penalty throughout the New Testament and so did Paul, the author of Hebrews and the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation.

Zeke, you said you HATE them. That is your personal interaction with these people. You hate THEM. It's a personal interaction of HATE, not love.
Not even just their sins, but the PEOPLE themselves.

I agree that Jesus said that our personal interaction with people should be out of love. I haven't seen that in you one time. Where is the love, Zeke? Where is your personal interaction of love with people, since you obviously acknowledge that Jesus commanded it?

Jesus didn't hate any PEOPLE. He hated their sins. He came to SAVE us from those sins, because ALL of our hearts are desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9), and we ALL deserve to die for our sins!

In fact, as he was being crucified by a large number of nasty, evil people who were torturing Him, He said, "Father, forgive them. For they know not what they do."

He told God to please forgive them, because they didn't fully understand what the consequences of their actions were. They didn't fully understand what they were doing. That they were doing this evil to God's own son.

Yet, you would not do the same, for someone who was deceived into having an abortion and now feels extreme regret and remorse for it?

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 2:26 PM


Awww thanks Jess!

:internet hugs:

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 2:28 PM


"and we ALL deserve to die for our sins!"

I'm not sure if I agree. I don't think anyone under the age of say two can do anything bad enough to make them deserve to die. And I think there are a few people in this world who are just calm, loving people who haven't done anything bad enough to cause them to deserve death. Or do you mean original sin? It seems unfair that being born is a sin. Because that's what baptism is for.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 2:30 PM


Pajamamama 2:16

Good observation!

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 2:31 PM


Doug is obviously failing at his job of knight in shinning armor. Someone has to pick up the slack.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 2:32 PM



Jess, believe me, answering you would lead to another protestant/catholic debate, and I honestly do not have the energy for another 3,000 post debate. lol
I'm sure if you check out that debate, you'll find out all you need to know about my beliefs on that subject. ;-)

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 2:34 PM


Ok Bethany but you're missing out! : )

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 2:37 PM


Lol, seriously, I didn't even participate in that debate...but all that reading made me tired. hehe.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 2:39 PM


PJMama --

I made the mistake of relying on the abortion "professionals" for information about fetal development after I got pregnant and before my abortion

Baloney. You didn't want to know before the abortion or after. They could have handed you a book about it in the clinic, and you wouldn't have looked at it.

Nobody deceived you or stopped you from going to a library or book store and learning about pregnancy before making up your mind to have an abortion; you just didn't want to. You're blaming the clinic for your own stubbornness and willful ignorance.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 2:39 PM


I know many prolifers and have never met one with his views.

Posted by: Bismarck at March 17, 2008 2:41 PM


PajamaMama said:

"Zeke:
Interesting how you link to the "Human Life Awareness Campaign" website. But, that doesn't make sense. You say that aborting mothers are cold-blooded murderers, but that implies that they know exactly what they're doing. Then why the need for an awareness campaign?"

It varies from girl to girl, but once they have discussed their being pregnant with the chump that got them pregnant and possibly their parents they typically know by the time they have their baby aborted that they are murdering a little person.

The reason I link to the Human Life Awareness Campaign is because it is the most effective and efficient effort ever conceived for showing the truth about abortion to the greatest amount of people each day/week/year using superior methods online - which is far more effective than spending tons of money to show the truth on a street corner to people driving by and not paying much attention to the truth on those images (or becoming very upset because their children see it).

That ministry has its specific place and encourages some people who see the truth about abortion to take action and talk with their loved ones about it.

Think about it. If a girl really thought of her baby as just a blob of cells then it wouldn't be such a trying process to go through having her baby murdered.

PajamaMama said:

"The word "murder" implies killing with foresight and planning. But in order for there to be foresight and planning, the aborting mother would have to know all of the facts."

No, they don't need to know "ALL" of the facts. Just the specific facts that relate to the personhood of their baby. And most girls seem to have these facts in mind because they admit that when they go to murder their child that it is an act that goes against their morals and beliefs. How could it really be against their morality if they didn't know they were killing a person? Is it just that they are going against what their church teaches? Is that all that going against their morality and beliefs means?

PajamaMama said:

"Your stance is not helping to endear the pro-life cause to the millions of post-abortive mothers in the world. THESE are the people who will be successfully used by the pro-life side to change hearts. WE are ones who have been there. WE are the remaining living victims of abortion who still have a voice to cry out about the damage that it causes. DON'T alienate us."

HA! That's laughable. See, what God says is just and right is good and should be promoted, not kept hidden. All murderers must be broguht to trial and upon conviction executed. And that includes moms that murder their children. That's what the law should be according to God in order to bring about justice and deter moms from murdering their babies.

If we re-criminalized the murder of babies today all we would have to do is bring the first 1,000 murderers to trial and once convicted publicly execute them painfully and in public. Anyone thinking about murdering their child or anyone else would soon get the message and the number of murders occuring each month in the USA would be close to 0.

That is, if you believe God.

Deuteronomy 17:10-13
"You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the LORD chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. 11 "According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside [to] the right hand or [to] the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. 12 "Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. 13 "And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 2:42 PM


I guess you're right, reality, Zeke

Hey, and those dummies who died after taking Vioxx deserved what they got. Why didn't they do their own research? Who is dumb enough to rely on the FDA to decide what drugs are or are not safe to take?

Hope they weren't Catholic, cuz if they were, I guess they're in hell right now for committing suicide.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 2:46 PM


Seriously, Zeke, if all anybody knew about being pro-life came from knowing you..I really don't blame them for being PC.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 2:49 PM


Zeke,

For all of your hate-spewing, you still refuse to direct your name-calling directly to ME. You always use the words "these young girls" and "they". Are you going to call me a cold-blooded murderer by name?

Have you ever called a post-abortive mother a Murderer to her FACE.

Didn't think so. Coward.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 2:56 PM


I didn't get to read through the thread here, but I believe that when abortion is legal, alot of people may think it means=okay, legit, etc. Which makes it easier for them to abort.

What gets me is the fight that the so-called "pro-choicers" put up when a bill requiring ultrasounds to be shown before an abortion.

Posted by: jasper at March 17, 2008 2:59 PM


jess said:

"zeke13:19 -
Leave Elizabeth alone! She is a wonderful, good person who is doing more to help the world then you could even imagine."

Maybe you should make your own 'leave Elizabeth alone' video like Chris Crocker did for Britney Spears.

PajamaMama claimed:

"But if it makes you feel better to gloat at the suffering of others, please continue. It's actually quite entertaining to see you work yourself into a lather."

I'm not gloating at all or in any way. Do you even know what the word "gloat" means?

Tell me this PajamaMama. Does God want to see murder re-criminalized and see those who are convicted of murdering their children (preborn or postborn) executed? Its a simple YES or NO question.

Elizabeth said after trying to create some kind of guilt-by-association out of thin air:

"I would like to do more than just coddle them. I want to help them seek forgiveness from God and themselves."

I do too. The difference is, once they have been convicted of murder I will help share the gospel with them during the 24 hours between their conviction and execution. Doing it this way has a MUCH HIGHER success rate in conversion by the way. Because they have a real deadline.

Bethany said:

"Zeke, you said you HATE them. That is your personal interaction with these people. You hate THEM. It's a personal interaction of HATE, not love.
Not even just their sins, but the PEOPLE themselves."

You're not very bright Bethany, so I hesitate to elaborate on any of this, even though what I will describe here is basicly universal experience - that you will still try to deny somehow. But, here it goes!

You can love and hate the same person at the same time. Love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

Think about it. Do you love and hate Charles Manson? Or do you just love Charles Manson? If you claim that you only love Charles Manson and don't hate him at all, then everyone will know you are lying.

Bethany said:

"Yet, you would not do the same, for someone who was deceived into having an abortion and now feels extreme regret and remorse for it?"

I would never seek to enforce a law retroactively. That would be unjust. I only want to bring to trial and execute moms convicted of murdering their children once the law re-criminalizing murder is in force. Then I want the trials to occur over a week long period, and with the convictions bring about public and painful executions so the entire nation can see what happens to those convicted of murder and deter any future murderers from occuring. God has promised that will work (Deut 17:10-13).

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:01 PM


PJM,

You rock and I am very glad that you are here to share your story. I can tell you have a lot of compassion and you are a very intelligent woman. God bless you!

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 3:01 PM


right Jasper. It's obvious that the fix has been in for 34 years now, but that technology is finally going to make it impossible to escape the truth. Information is the enemy of the abortionist.

I wonder if we should bring charges against the folks who were tricked into thinking that they were administering electric shocks to the actors in the Milgram Study? After all, whether it was true or not, they believed that they were hurting another person, and they continued to do it anyway. Should they be brought up on abuse charges, or even charges of torture? Just curious...reality, Zeke, care to weigh in?

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 3:03 PM


Doug is obviously failing at his job of knight in shinning armor. Someone has to pick up the slack.

:: laughing ::

Jess, I think I left the Ultra-Sheen polish at home, and I'm on the way to Sin City (VEGAS, Baby!) today. Posted a bit in the Pittsburgh airport, now in Cleveland with 20 minutes or so to boarding.

No gambling or sinning for me, just picking up one of our oil-processing rigs and heading for Washington state. My greagt lifietime of casino gambling consists of losing four quarters one time.

I don't know what you're referring to.... somebody picking on you? Oh, okay, you mean Zeke picking on people? Well, you're gonna have that.

Keep up the good fight, and I'll be wishing you well from seat 3A.

Doug

Posted by: Doug at March 17, 2008 3:04 PM


PajamaMama asked:

"Have you ever called a post-abortive mother a Murderer to her FACE."

Yes I have. Over half a dozen times easily. I've even asked girls who hinted at having abortions questions like "you've murdered one of your children?"

The Holy Spirit was swift to convict them each time. And I had business card size images of aborted babies to show them the truth if they didn't acknowledge it at the time.

I come equipt.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:05 PM


Doug - welcome to CLE :)

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 3:06 PM


UGGGHHH ....Cleveland

Just Kucinich being there makes it horribly depressing.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:08 PM



http://fruitfly.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/dennis-kucinich.jpg

Posted by: Anonymous at March 17, 2008 3:10 PM


PJM,
You go girl!! :)

What do you think of the term post abortive?

Also,
What always amazes me-how I continue to meet so many who regret their abortions and the stories are all so similar.

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 3:13 PM


HAHA!! That pic was hilarious!

You know, the funniest pic I've seen involving Kucinich is when one of his supporters took part in this pantsless event in Boston if I recall right.

The guy stood on a bench or something in a shirt and his underwear and held up a Kucinich sign!

Check out that video and see the crazy Kucinich supporter here about 2/3 of the way into the video.

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=28844

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:15 PM


Elizabeth, PJMama:

I'm comforted by the fact that Zeke will die an angry, pent-up, frustrated virgin. Hopefully soon. Having that much hate has to wear on one's heart, no?

:)

I can't imagine any woman being dumb enough to ever deal with this character romantically. He is the antithesis of a good "catch". I pity any girl who is so brainwashed about her intrinsic value enough to lower herself to dating this moron. I can't imagine anyone with any semblance of a self-esteem going out with him. Seriously.

Posted by: Lyssie at March 17, 2008 3:23 PM


Hmmmm.....why did Lyssie, who doesn't know me at all, attack me personally and not deal with the concrete reasons I've given to support my position?

Its because she has nothing. Nothing of substance to respond with.

Really glad I'm me today. I mean even more than other days :]

Still waiting to hear PajamaMama's response to my question I asked earlier.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:28 PM


You're not very bright Bethany, so I hesitate to elaborate on any of this, even though what I will describe here is basicly universal experience - that you will still try to deny somehow. But, here it goes!

You got me, Zeke.

You can love and hate the same person at the same time. Love and hate are not mutually exclusive.

So do you love Pajama Mama? Do you love Carla? Be honest about your feelings towards them. I know you have read their posts enough to know how much they detest abortion and regret what they did. Do you love them, Zeke.

Think about it. Do you love and hate Charles Manson? Or do you just love Charles Manson? If you claim that you only love Charles Manson and don't hate him at all, then everyone will know you are lying.

How can I hate someone I don't even know?
That would mean that I had invested time thinking about them.

Of course, I hate what he did. That doesn't mean I hate him personally. I hate the murders he committed, the evil he did on this earth. If I knew him, I might hate him. But I may love him. And like you said, I might have a "love hate" relationship with him. But I think of the love hate relationship in a different way than you do, I suppose.

Isn't your argument that you can love someone and hate them simultaneously just another way of saying you can hate the sin, but love the sinner?

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 3:28 PM


see abortion clinics in every town

I have to call you on that one, PM. There is one, ONE abortion clinic in the entire state of South Dakota. Nationally there isn't even one clinic in every COUNTY, much less every town. In most of the country, geographically speaking, women have to go very far out of their way to get an abortion, sometimes hundreds of miles. For these women, abortion is not "just another viable option," it is the ONLY one.

Posted by: Ray at March 17, 2008 3:30 PM


Bethany presented a decent question asking:

"Isn't your argument that you can love someone and hate them simultaneously just another way of saying you can hate the sin, but love the sinner?"

NO. Because "sin" is not an entity. You can't hate "sin". When someone says they hate the sin of adultery they mean they hate the persons who commit adultery.

God will not just take "sin" from people and throw it into Hell and then allow everyone into Heaven. He will cast evil people into Hell.

If someone is a convicted rapist they are to be executed. You have to execute them, you can't just execute their "sin" and allow them to go on raping again.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 3:33 PM


Hi Carla,

I think the term "post-abortive" is a very succinct term, but I always want to see it used before the word "mother" instead of "woman" because any woman who has had an abortion is, forever after, a mother. She is just the mother of a dead baby even if she never goes on to have another child.

I use the term it because it implies that a mother has been forever-changed by the death of her child at her own hand. There was life before the abortion; Then there was the reality after abortion.

It is and will always be a pivotal event in my life, and not a good one. I don't want my abortion to define me; I just want it to matter. I just want to be the type of person who learns from my failings, instead of burying them under a mountain of denial.

Yes, there are things that I could have done to inform myself. Yes, I could have refused to have an abortion just to placate the less-than-enthusiastic father of my baby, but I wasn't mentally or emotionally strong enough to do any of those things. The abortion, for all of the mistakes and wrongs of others, was ultimately MY decision. And I made the wrong one. I'm not here to blame. What I do aim to do is what is necessary to prevent abortionists from profiting from the ignorance and weakness of others by lying to perpetuate that ignorance.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 3:38 PM


For these women, abortion is not "just another viable option," it is the ONLY one.

Ray,

For some women, suicide is not "just another viable option", and in their opinion, it is the only option.

Yet, I am sure if they could find someone who cared enough about them to help them through their problems, to let them know they CAN go on and they CAN make it...then they might just change their minds. Just like with abortion minded women- SO many women change their mind, simply because someone was there for them, and actually CARED about them, and helped them to see the light at the end of the tunnel. To see from another perspective and to understand that this could turn out to be a positive thing for all involved. And maybe to get some actual help, like maternity clothes, help with medical bills, help with food and other expenses along the way. Someone to call them to give them support along the way, to let them know what to expect (sometimes fear of the unknown is the worst fear there is!)

Abortion is many times a cry for help, similar to suicide attempts, in my opinion.

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 3:39 PM


Bethany, 3:39 p.m. very good post!

PJM, you are a very strong woman and I am glad you are here!

Zeke,

How does it feel to carry all that hate around? It must get heavy sometimes.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 3:43 PM


Hahaha...CONCRETE reasons? Oh, Bible verses...That's right..."concrete".

*giggles some more and votes for Obama*

*pops her birth control pill with utmost glee*

I believe that every person here sees what I see, a hatred emanating from you that blinds you to its effects. You're the last one who'd make pro-life conversions. Unfortunately, your pride keeps you from realizing this when the most effective people, like Bethany and MK (whom you detest for being supposedly "dumb") far outpace you in the impact made for the pro-life movement. I believe results are the evidence.

Unfortunately, you won't get off your high horse long enough to see this. Keep hugging your Bible and finding more reasons to hate people. People like Bethany and MK will keep offering healing and help to those who need it, while you will continue to alienate these same. Your idiotic and ineffective tactics will continue to founder in the wake of strategy like Bethany and MK.

Posted by: Lyssie at March 17, 2008 3:44 PM


Zeke, before I respond to your next post, do you love PajamaMama and Carla?
Do you love them as sisters in Christ?

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 3:44 PM


PJM,
Oh, sweets, you have nothing to explain to me. You don't even have to try and go back there and figure out the "whys" of it all! What matters to you and me and God is that you have changed, you know the truth and I am sorry that others want to blame and shame. You have been more than patient...
You are truly a gift!!

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 3:45 PM


Well jasper I certinly that ultra sounds should be offered for free to any pregnant mother, that includes those seeking abortion. I don't think it should be required though. I mean what if a young girl is the victim of incest and must have the abortion for health reasons? Should she be shown it? What if it's for the morning after pill? You couldn't see that on an ultra sound. Like I said it should be offered, yeah and maybe recommended but not forced on anyone.

Doug honestly, us helpless girls are being picked on by mean old zeke and you're partying it up in Vegas? And where is Hisman? Looks like I'll have to be the man of this family now. On yeah and jasper.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 3:54 PM


Lyssie,

I do understand your points about Zeke..but the name calling in your posts really doesn't help the situation either. You are criticizing him for the exact same thing you're doing. I only say this because I like you, and know that you are capable of debating/arguing in a mature fashion. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 3:54 PM


Zeke,

Nope, aborting mothers should not be treated as murderers. Abortionists are the most culpable. They kill for money. Aborting mothers are desperate and commit abortion for reasons, real or imaginary, of self-preservation.

I liken the relationship between an aborting mother and the abortionist to the relationship between a drug addict and her dealer. The law should treat them as such and an aborting mother should be required to go through therapy to address her most likely numerous underlying issues driving her to believe that abortion is her only way out of a difficult situation. Abortion is a symptom of other very serious life issues.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 3:55 PM


If there weren't abortions there wouldn't be abortionists. If people don't need abortion it will go away. Like drugs. Except EVERYONE will ALWAYS need drugs. Probably. Pamprin?

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 3:59 PM


"Abortion is a symptom of other very serious life issues."

So get that, PJM!! Thank you.

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 4:03 PM


Except EVERYONE will ALWAYS need drugs

She's talking about illegal drugs I believe Jess.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:14 PM


PajamaMama said:

"Nope, aborting mothers should not be treated as murderers. Abortionists are the most culpable. They kill for money. Aborting mothers are desperate and commit abortion for reasons, real or imaginary, of self-preservation.

I liken the relationship between an aborting mother and the abortionist to the relationship between a drug addict and her dealer. The law should treat them as such and an aborting mother should be required to go through therapy to address her most likely numerous underlying issues driving her to believe that abortion is her only way out of a difficult situation. Abortion is a symptom of other very serious life issues."

So, what crime are these moms guilty of then if not murder? They know they are murdering their child. They pay a hitman to murder their child. How are they not guilty of murder????

To claim that these moms are just victims who murder their babies because of imagined reasons is like claiming that some criminal just murdered a person in the house they were robbing because of imagined reasons and they aren't really a murderer because their environment forced them to rob and murder.

Come on! It doesn't add up! When you pay someone to murder your child you are guilty of murder and must be executed for justice to be brought about.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:14 PM


Justice according to who Zeke? You? God?

You don't find it the least BIT hypocritical to say well you can't murder someone because I say so, so that means I can murder you? HOW DOES THAT ADD UP?!!

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:17 PM


Bethany said:

"Zeke, before I respond to your next post, do you love PajamaMama and Carla?
Do you love them as sisters in Christ?"

What if I don't? Its irrelevant to my argument whether I love them at all or not. I am talking about the unchanging goodness and justice of God here and how it relates to the crimes of murder. If I never existed this would all still be 100% true.

My desire to publicly and painfully execute those who murder babies is evidence that I love the USA enough to prevent murder from occuring as much as possible. Its a loving thing to seek justice for murderers and their victims (babies who were murdered in this instance).

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:20 PM


Hey, and those dummies who died after taking Vioxx deserved what they got. Why didn't they do their own research? Who is dumb enough to rely on the FDA to decide what drugs are or are not safe to take?

You're seriously comparing yourself to patients who could not have known the risks of Vioxx?

Please. Nobody hid the truth about pregnancy from you. The truth about pregnancy was available to you at any book store or public library. The truth about Vioxx was not available to the public.

You are not a victim. You decided to have an abortion, knowing nothing about pregnancy and refusing to learn anything about pregnancy. Now you're blaming the clinic for giving you exactly what you wanted.

You may be too weak (your word) to be trusted with your own medical decisions, but most women are not. Don't impugn the intelligence and strength of all women just because you made a mistake you now regret.

Posted by: reality at March 17, 2008 4:23 PM


I love the USA enough to prevent murder from occuring as much as possible.

Except when you have determined it is justified.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:23 PM


As long as those who profit from abortion continue to publicize propaganda to the public claiming that the unborn are not human beings and pro-abort groups continually, and successfully censoring pro-life messages and images from the public, we will never be justified in classifying abortion as murder. And that is simply because you cannot come up with a law if there is no concensus. Society has to come out of denial before we can each individually be held responsible for a properly exposed and vetted truth such as abortion.

Your analogy fails, Zeke, because even a mob hit man knows that what he is doing is murder and the person who sent him knows that it is murder. The situation of the unborn is unique because, until recently, the victim has been unseen, unheard, untouched (except by the abortionists, who have been very effective at hiding those realities).

Pure science will eventually be the undoing of abortion on demand in this secular society. As a believer in God and in the healing love of Jesus Christ, I pray that this would not be so. But in the end, if science is what it takes to expose the truth to the unwashed masses, I'll take it, and I'll wager that God will take it, too. He created science anyway, so maybe through science, more hearts will be led to Him.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 4:26 PM


You're really mindless Elizabeth. No wonder all you can do is accuse me of being part of a group like WBC. Pathetic!

I mean, you think that executing a murderer is murder. You just said that in your above criticism! That is the essence of mindlessness!

God demands that convicted murderers be executed for justice to be brought about. Here is where Jesus Christ says that in the Old and New Testament.

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

Exodus 20:13 " You shall not murder.

Exodus 21:12,22-25 12 " He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. " If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine.] 23 "But if [any] harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 "burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Numbers 35:31,33 'Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who [is] guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death. 33 'So you shall not pollute the land where you [are;] for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it.

Matthew 15:3-6 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God" -- ] 6 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. [ ALSO MARK 7 ]

Acts 25:11 "For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar."

Romans 13:1-4 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.

Hebrews 10:28-29 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:32 PM


Zeke, you may be right that God hates the sinner as well as the sin.

I think you are wrong, however, that he cannot hate sin itself, as 6 of the 7 abominations are actions, not people.

Yet, I firmly believe that as Christians, we should feel love and compassion for sinners, knowing that they could accept Christ.

I think we should have the DESIRE for them to be redeemed if they aren't, and we should love those who have been saved through Christ after having had abortions, because they have seen the light and their sins have been removed as far as the east is from the west for them.

I think that your messages would be SO much better received if you wouldn't insult others while you spoke. Honestly, they would. Even when I agree with you I don't want to admit it because of your very insulting way of getting your point across. You would have a LOT more support, not in everything you say, but a lot more of it, if you would just treat others with some manner of respect and not condescension and ridicule.

And I think you SHOULD love PajamaMama and Carla if you are saved through grace, because although they had abortions, they have repented of that sin and they have turned around so much that they are fighting tooth and nail to get abortion outlawed. Those sins have been forgiven!

And you should not think yourself higher than them because our sins are no better than theirs. ALL our righteousness is as filthy rags. WE are just as fortunate to have been bestowed with Jesus grace as they are. If we had not been saved we would have been doomed for the same place that they would have been doomed for had they not repented and accepted Christ.

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 4:34 PM


Science is AMORAL and cannot lead to a moral awakening.

None of the laws of science include the terms "right" or "wrong".

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:34 PM


"My desire to publicly and painfully execute those who murder babies is evidence that I love the USA enough to prevent murder from occuring as much as possible."

So basically, an eye for an eye? I have taken the morning after pill twice. Should I be executed? Well looks like that's the end of me. Because I might have stopped two fertilized eggs from implanting.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 4:35 PM


I think its official - Elizabeth hates Jesus Christ who said "you shall not murder" and "those who shed man's blood must have their blood shed by man [execution]".

If Elizabeth thinks that is wrong then she hates God who revealed it is absolute truth and justice in His word.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:37 PM


reality:

You seriously didn't know what a fetus looked like until your own pregnancy? What stopped you from looking up this information for so many years?

Do you think that people should have to look up vital information on their own prior to getting other surgical procedures done, or just abortions? PajamaMama describes being lied to. Surely that's not OK just because she could have looked up fetal development on her own in a book.

Posted by: Jen R at March 17, 2008 4:39 PM


Please Zeke, your hypocrisy is what is mindless. God isn't the one doing the executing. HUMANS are...so what YOU are saying is that YOU as a human have a right to decide who lives and dies based on YOUR determination and the abortive mother cannot? Sounds like quite the hypocrisy to me!

Your reasoning for execution is the same as that of the abortive mother. She doesn't see the unborn baby as a human and you don't see murderers as human. Same logic, you just seem to think your's is MORE right than everyone else's.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:40 PM


"So basically, an eye for an eye? I have taken the morning after pill twice. Should I be executed? Well looks like that's the end of me"

Me too Jess, but I'd be honored to share the gallows with you.


Posted by: Hal at March 17, 2008 4:41 PM


zeke, I love how your site has a big DONATE NOW button in the center with a video about donating right underneath it. Talk about using abortion for a profit. BOO you whore.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 4:41 PM


Lol, yep, I hate Jesus Christ...because YOU think I disagree with him. lol Zeke, go take your anti-psychotic medication now.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:42 PM


"
"So basically, an eye for an eye? I have taken the morning after pill twice. Should I be executed? Well looks like that's the end of me"

Me too Jess"

You've taken the morning after pill twice, Hal???

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 17, 2008 4:46 PM


If Elizabeth hates Jesus then I'm the anti-Christ. It's ok though. I'll probably just muck it up.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 4:46 PM


Bobby Bambino you beat me to it!! :)

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 4:48 PM


hehe

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 17, 2008 4:49 PM


Oh Bobby. I just meant that I'm doomed as well.

Posted by: Hal at March 17, 2008 4:49 PM


Yeah Bobby it also works as a calcium supplement.

No, lol, sorry. I think he meant he would be condemned by zeke and his "God" with me.

BTW I got my first test back from my history "Bible" class. I got an 82 but I went off onto a tangent about the spread of early Christianity while I was supposed to be discussing Greeks. I just love discussing the Bible and its philosophies.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 4:50 PM


Hey Zeke,

In case you missed this in your rantings....I don't hate Jesus Christ. I love Him because He gave up His life so the world would be saved. Including post-abortive mothers.

Boo yah.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 4:51 PM


Elizabeth,
I am so excited for Easter, my fave holiday! He is risen! Indeed! Love you, sweetie!

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 4:56 PM


"Zeke- Didn't Jesus kinda go against that in the New Testament?"
*
No, He didn't. He taught about personal interaction and how that was different than the government carrying out justice. Jesus upheld the death penalty throughout the New Testament and so did Paul, the author of Hebrews and the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation.
*
Matthew 15:3-5 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God"] --Jesus Christ supporting the death penalty He gave to Moses

Just one more proof that we shouldn't be interpreting scripture on our own...

Posted by: mk at March 17, 2008 5:04 PM


Well then Carla this is for you! http://mfrost.typepad.com/cute_overload/2007/04/happy_easter_bu.html

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 5:07 PM


Elizabeth failed to make any intelligent arguments saying:

"Please Zeke, your hypocrisy is what is mindless. God isn't the one doing the executing. HUMANS are...so what YOU are saying is that YOU as a human have a right to decide who lives and dies based on YOUR determination and the abortive mother cannot? Sounds like quite the hypocrisy to me!

Your reasoning for execution is the same as that of the abortive mother. She doesn't see the unborn baby as a human and you don't see murderers as human. Same logic, you just seem to think your's is MORE right than everyone else's."

WRONG.

God says that HE COMMANDS that men execute murderers precisely because He made man in His image. Its all said very nicely in Genesis 9:6. That was the very first verse I quoted, so how in the hell could you miss it!? You must have not taken the time to read what I posted cause you have some sort of hyper ADD problem.

****READ VERY CLOSELY****

Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, BY MAN his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

God commands that men execute men who are guilty of murder. He couldn't be more clear. Its not my idea or command, its all God's.

God also made very clear that the only just punishment for murder is execution. Go back up and read the verses I posted where God says that.

AGAIN, YOU ARE FLAT WRONG IN YOUR ASSERTION BECAUSE I BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAYS - THAT WE ARE TO EXECUTE MURDERERS PRECISELY BECAUSE MAN WAS MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 5:09 PM


Marykay, 5:04 as I am sure you understand, there is a difference between interpreting the Bible on your own, and interpreting it on your own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 5:09 PM


Zeke, have you met any of those women who killed in cold blood? This is an honest question.

The reason I ask is because I haven't ever met any of them (in real life) and this may be the reason that I don't understand where you're coming from.

In my opinion, a woman who aborts in cold blood is just as guilty as the abortionist who kills the baby.

However, I do think that there is a matter of the benefit of a doubt to young girls who simply do not understand basic biology, or the answer to "when life begins".

I have talked to so many young teenagers who really and truly do believe that the baby doesn't become "a baby" until it looks like a baby. Or until this or that.

As for why they say it's against their morals if they don't really know it's murder? That is many times (yet, I realize it's not all the time) because their parents have said that abortion is wrong, or their church has said it is wrong, but they do not fully understand why.

Therefore, the "wrong" they feel is that it goes against their parents, family, or their church's beliefs.

Also some believe that it is only a "potential" life, just as people believe birth control removes "potential life". I tell you, these people are SO deceived, many of them.

There are people who do it in cold blood however, and those I feel are absolutely guilty.

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 5:14 PM


mk provided NOTHING as a criticism of what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 15 by claiming:

"Just one more proof that we shouldn't be interpreting scripture on our own..."

OK brilliant one. If you're so much better at understanding the bible then why don't you or someone really smart share with us what Jesus Christ said there in Matthew 15?

Won't be holding my breath waiting for you to provide something different than what Jesus obviously said here - that He upholds the laws that HE GAVE in Exodus 20 and Exodus 21.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 5:14 PM


Jess,
Cute buns. :)

Posted by: Carla at March 17, 2008 5:15 PM


Bethany said:

"I have talked to so many young teenagers who really and truly do believe that the baby doesn't become "a baby" until it looks like a baby. Or until this or that."

In my government children will be taught around the age of 12 everything they need to know about fetal development. Something that is kept from those in the public school system. No one will be able to plead "ignorance" of the personhood of the preborn.

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 5:18 PM


Zeke, can I add your picture to the who's who page? Until a few months ago, I had thought you were the blonde girl in your avatar and it wasn't until Doug pointed it out that I realized you were a guy. Would you mind me adding your picture to the page?
You can see all of ours here:
http://preciousinfants.com/whoswho.htm

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 5:20 PM


In my government children will be taught around the age of 12 everything they need to know about fetal development. Something that is kept from those in the public school system. No one will be able to plead "ignorance" of the personhood of the preborn.

That is a good thing, Zeke. I think that is a wonderful step for the preborn!

But this day and age is what I am talking about.

You asserted that no one could possibly be deceived about prenatal life, and I was simply trying to challenge that by sharing my experience, and asking a little about your experience with abortion minded women.

I've been working in a CPC for a little while and have met some pretty ignorant teens. It says nothing good about the educational system that some girls don't even know what pregnancy really is.

Posted by: Bethany at March 17, 2008 5:22 PM


Bethany,

Marykay, 5:04 as I am sure you understand, there is a difference between interpreting the Bible on your own, and interpreting it on your own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, bethany, I'll give you that one...lol


Posted by: mk at March 17, 2008 5:24 PM


Zeke said: Science is AMORAL and cannot lead to a moral awakening.

None of the laws of science include the terms "right" or "wrong".

Posted by: zeke13:19 at March 17, 2008 4:34 PM

PJMama says:
I never said that science had morals. I am simply saying that facts determined by science can lead each individual or a society to determine whether a specific situation fits into their moral code. My morals state, and have always stated, that murder is wrong; murder defined as the intentional killing of another innocent human being. Had I been privy to or been forced to see, via science, the undeniable humanity of my unborn child, then my personal moral code would have made it impossible for me to go forward with the abortion. None of you know me personally, so you cannot say one way or another whether that is true, so all I can say is that it is the truth. It was of interest to me, or I would not have asked. If I had been told the truth when I asked, things would have come out much differently.

It's been interesting having this discussion. Not because it makes any difference in how I feel about my past or how I feel about myself, because I have already hashed all of those things out with God and He knows my heart. It's been interesing because arguing these points just makes me stronger and stronger so that when I am ever faced with a situation in which I can make a difference in some other mother's life, whether she has had an abortion in her past or is now considering an abortion, I will have that much more to draw from in talking to her.

For that, I thank you all.

As it is, I NOW have two beautiful living sons ages 5 and 2 and a husband, who are all hungry for dinner, so duty calls.

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 5:27 PM


Zeke,

The day "your" government exists is the day I will move out of this country. Not because of the fetal development thing, but because of your otherwise more obvious psychotic delusions about public executions of post-abortive mothers and such.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 5:28 PM


1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2
"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? 2 They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal."
3
He said to them in reply, "And why do you break the commandment of God 3 for the sake of your tradition?
4
For God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.'
5
4 But you say, 'Whoever says to father or mother, "Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,"
6
need not honor his father.' You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7
Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said:
8
'This people honors me with their lips, 5 but their hearts are far from me;
9
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.'"


Well Zeke, you got part of it right. This people honors me with their lip, but their hearts are far from me...

Maybe you need to read this passage again...exactly who was saying that people should be put to death?

Exactly! The pharisees. Just like I said yesterday.

And by the way, what exactly is balogney?

Posted by: mk at March 17, 2008 5:32 PM


"Oh Bobby. I just meant that I'm doomed as well."

hehe, I know Hal. I was just being facetious.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 17, 2008 5:38 PM


Ahoy! Conspiracy theories ho!

Posted by: Leah at March 17, 2008 6:18 PM


Getting back to the initial post. I do see a link between the Milgram results and how abortion is presented to women in a crisis pregnancy situation. I know in my situation, several people, who seemed to be authority figures at the time --- my boyfriend and a 'best friend' -- nearly had me convinced that abortion was my only option. They painted scenerios of rejection by my family, public humilitation, hardship on my ill mother and lifelong poverty -- that seemed at the time -- very real. People who I believed loved, not only gave one-sided counsel, but also told me to keep it quiet.

Thankfully, God intervened and I was convinced to cancel my appointment. (The clinic continued to call for two weeks to reschedule).

Crisis, and authority figures are, in some ways, in the eye of the beholder. The Milgram experiment demonstrated how the majority of people succomb to pressure from someone they assume to have authority, especially if they are isolated from any other alternatives. The only 'teaching method' offered in the experiment was giving shocks.

Did you know that the Milgram experiments were held to discover why so many 'good Germans' carried out the policies of the Nazis? The results showed that even 'good' Americans are subject to the same sort of pressure.

Posted by: LB at March 17, 2008 6:55 PM


I think certain posters need to STOP ragging on PJM.

She made a mistake and she admits it. She is trying to share her mistake in the hopes of preventing someone else from making the same one.
I applaud her for doing so, and admire her guts.
She doesn't need to be berated here...she is sharing her story voluntarily and is NOT asking for sympathy. This takes strength and courage and she has proven to have an abundance of both.

She has made peace with God and how BLESSED she is. She asked for forgiveness and she has received it.

Praise God from whom ALL blessings flow.

Posted by: Mike at March 17, 2008 8:29 PM


Bless your heart, Mike...and Carla, and Bethany, and Jill, and Elizabeth, and Jasper, and MK, and Erin, and Jen...I hope I didn't miss anyone.
Hopefully, I can continue to bring a unique perspective to dicussions here (without getting TOO bruised in the process) - PJM

Posted by: PajamaMama at March 17, 2008 9:12 PM


without getting TOO bruised in the process

We all have our "battle scars" PJM..but they're worth it!

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 9:37 PM


Lyssie "
*giggles some more and votes for Obama*

*pops her birth control pill with utmost glee* "

I'm telling your Daddy.

Posted by: Jasper at March 17, 2008 9:39 PM


I'm telling your Daddy.

Tattler.

Posted by: Leah at March 17, 2008 9:51 PM


Coming in late on this one!

First of all- PajamaMama- brilliant! There is a correlation between distance, dehumanization and violence- and this is a astute parallel.

Ray- They're called "pregnancy resource centers" now. The haven't been Crisis Pregnancy Centers for a while. And yanno, if a woman is so distraught at the thought of being pregnant that she'd kill the baby- that's a friggin' crisis!

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 17, 2008 10:03 PM


This is where you're wrong, Anonymous. It's all about sex -- who's allowed to have it, who isn't, and how they're allowed to have it. It's why "pro-lifers" also fight against birth control and gay rights.

Yeah- like opposing gay marriage is an attempt to stop gay sex. How many gay folks do you know that are "waiting for marriage"???

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 17, 2008 10:04 PM


If we're going to ban someone, like we banned Laura (FetusFascist), why not Zeke? This fundie a-hole does nothing that antagonize pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike with his hate and self-righteousness. He's damaging to the pro-life cause not to mention annoying as hell.

Frankly, I prefer Laura to him.

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 17, 2008 10:07 PM


*joins Lyssie in popping birth control pill with utmost glee*

Don't worry Jasper, my dad already knows I'm on it, and couldn't care less. :)

Posted by: Rae at March 17, 2008 10:09 PM


*joins Rae and Lyssie*

BC party!!!

Posted by: Leah at March 17, 2008 10:18 PM


Yeah- like opposing gay marriage is an attempt to stop gay sex. How many gay folks do you know that are "waiting for marriage"???

Well, seeing as gay marriage is illegal... none. Rocket science, that one.

Posted by: Leah at March 17, 2008 10:20 PM


You banned Laura!? Oh no I loved Laura : ( She was funny and sweet. Sure sometimes she might be a little over the top but only because she wants what's best for women. Please un-ban her. For me?

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 10:53 PM


Jess --

I too just saw that Laura was banned. I am relieved as she attacked me on several occasions. She seemed to hold special nastiness for single moms -- which I don't understand. Anyone who refers to my kid the way she did, is not dialoging, but seeking to insult.

Though at times she made me laugh.. the nasty things she wrote about people was horrid. It was obvious that anytime a single mom made a comment, she would start attacking them.

Posted by: LB at March 17, 2008 10:59 PM


Well, seeing as gay marriage is illegal... none. Rocket science, that one.

Supposing it were- do you think gay people are bastions of sexual morality?

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 17, 2008 11:23 PM


My two gay friends are both virgins and older then me. They're waiting for the right guy.

Posted by: Jess at March 17, 2008 11:25 PM


Laura is gone. Good riddance.
Must we keep being reminded of her?
Ding dong the witch is dead.
Time to move on.

Posted by: Mike at March 17, 2008 11:37 PM


Jacqueline-

I'm with you...I'm okay with banning Zeke. And Laura. Sorry Jess, I know you liked her...but she was downright cruel a LOT of the time. I mean we can all have our moments, but she was needlessly rude just about all the time.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 17, 2008 11:40 PM


Zeke,

Your accusing PJM of being a murderer. She is not...anymore Not in God's eyes. She has confessed her sin and has been forgiven. There is no sin of abortion in her that God sees.

You on the otherhand are unforgiving. You know what God has to say about unforgiveness...If you do not forgive...Neither does your Father in heaven forgive you.

Your lack of forgiveness cannot see the pain that post abortive women go through. Does God want her executed...No. He is a Father of LIFE not death. What about the father's that have paid for the abortion and coerced...Do they deserve the death penalty too? I have not seen one single post by you about the fathers. Just another man trying to place all the blame on the woman..Just like the first Adam.

Go read your bible! Lover the sinner hate the sin. It's hard. I know.

Posted by: Anna B. at March 17, 2008 11:58 PM


Anna B...I don't think we should let Zeke near a Bible..at least by himself anyway.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 18, 2008 12:18 AM


Zeke- Didn't Jesus kinda go against that in the New Testament?

"You have heard that they were told an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but what I tell you is this: Never set yourself against a man who wrongs you. So when someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn, and offer him your left."
Posted by: Erin at March 17, 2008 11:35 AM
***********

Erin,
You've been reading scripture in your down time :)

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 12:44 AM


Here you go, Zeke:

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 18, 2008 12:53 AM


Zeke,
The mercy of God given to us in Jesus Christ is infinitely greater than the condemnation we receive for our sins. Look at the exampl of St. Paul. He was himself a ruthless murderer of Christians and yet Jesus did not kill him. Instead Jesus showed him the wrong he had done and guided him to repentance and welcomed him as a disciple. I cannot and will not argue with you about the murders commited "any" time a mother commits abortion. My hatred for the evil of abortion could not be greater. But the Gospel as preached by Jesus Christ is a Gospel of repentance and forgiveness. Though I disagree your blasphemous comments about Jesus Christ condoning killing, I do not judge you. I think your motives are righteous my friend, but
you need to find the peace that can only come from placing your trust in the "mercy and forgiveness" given to us through our Lord and Saviour.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 1:45 AM


Zeke,
Keyword here is "repentance". Jesus would never condemn the repentant.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 1:53 AM


Ray- They're called "pregnancy resource centers" now. The haven't been Crisis Pregnancy Centers for a while.

I guess these folks didn't get the memo:
http://www.cicpc.org/index.php
http://www.cpcbloomington.org/
http://www.cpcgaston.org/
http://www.venturacpc.org/
http://choices-az.org/
http://www.amnion.org/
http://www.initforlife.org/
http://www.pccwichita.org/
http://www.monroehelpcpc.org/
http://www.sanfordcpc.com/
http://www.altcpc.com/
http://www.thecrisispregnancycenterct.org/
http://www.concordpregnancy.com/
http://www.heartlandcpc.org/
http://www.lincolncrisispregnancycenter.org/
http://www.reallifecpc.org/
http://www.crisispregnancy.ms/
http://www.lacpc.com/

And finally, this one doesn't use the word crisis, but it has a hilarious domain name for a cpc:
http://www.oopspregnant.com/

Posted by: Ray at March 18, 2008 2:39 AM


Jess,

You banned Laura!? Oh no I loved Laura : ( She was funny and sweet. Sure sometimes she might be a little over the top but only because she wants what's best for women. Please un-ban her. For me?

Laura is NOT banned. She was asked to leave only for that one night. I thought Jill required an apology, but Jill said "NO, Laura can come back anytime she wants as long as she doesn't attack anyone"...

The ball is now in Lauras court. I myself, emailed her, but have yet to receive a response...

I like her too.

Posted by: mk at March 18, 2008 5:17 AM


Jacquie,

That "sola scriptura" thingy is hysterical...where did you find it?

Posted by: mk at March 18, 2008 5:24 AM


: Jacqueline at March 18, 2008 12:53 AM

Trusting in the Scripture is never a problem. The Catholic Catechism says:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a1.htm

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behaviour but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.[27]
There will be no further Revelation

Posted by: Bethany at March 18, 2008 8:11 AM


Can't argue with that, Bethany! :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at March 18, 2008 8:17 AM


Thanks, Bobby. :)

Posted by: Bethany at March 18, 2008 8:19 AM


mk said,
Laura is NOT banned. She was asked to leave only for that one night. I thought Jill required an apology, but Jill said "NO, Laura can come back anytime she wants as long as she doesn't attack anyone"...
The ball is now in Lauras court. I myself, emailed her, but have yet to receive a response...
I like her too.
Posted by: mk at March 18, 2008 5:17 AM,
******

mk,
I was able to see compassion in Laura only once. I had posted something about how good babies are for your heart when you have them around and she responded 'awe shucks" or something like that. I saw you were always asking her to come over to the pro-life side and you could take the show on the road. I guess that would be possible but ahouldn't it be genuine? Were you looking for her to "dialogue" differently or expecting a change of heart?

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 9:54 AM


Lol, people are so surprised that the atheist knows her bible. I read the whole thing before I realized I didn't believe in God, ya know. I could probably fling scripture around all right myself. I don't because, well, I wouldn't mean it. It'd be arguing for the sake of arguing...which I do sometimes, but I'm too busy for that now ;-)

Posted by: Erin at March 18, 2008 11:10 AM


"NO, Laura can come back anytime she wants as long as she doesn't attack anyone"...


And YET, she hasn't come back...hmmm I wonder why.

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 18, 2008 2:11 PM


Laura is NOT banned

yeah, well- I still want to ban Zeke.

Posted by: Jacqueline at March 18, 2008 2:14 PM


Elizabeth, good point. A lot of people seem to miss Laura. I don't think she cares, and I don't believe she misses any of you. *ouch* Brutal huh? Where is Sally?

Posted by: heather at March 18, 2008 4:55 PM


Oh, and I don't miss Laura.

Posted by: heather at March 18, 2008 4:56 PM


Erin said:
Lol, people are so surprised that the atheist knows her bible. I read the whole thing before I realized I didn't believe in God, ya know. I could probably fling scripture around all right myself. I don't because, well, I wouldn't mean it. It'd be arguing for the sake of arguing...which I do sometimes, but I'm too busy for that now ;-)
Posted by: Erin at March 18, 2008 11:10 AM

Erin,
Your faith will return the day you quit "blaming" God for the pain you suffer. I see two possible ways out for you. 1) You could pray daily to God and ask the intercession of his Holy Spirit. 2) You hit rock bottom, you fall on your knees with tears in your eyes, and God will be waiting to heal your broken heart.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 10:56 PM


btw - I highly recommend that you NOT wait till you hit rock bottom cause hitting rock bottom means your whole world falling apart. Ouch!!!

Posted by: truthseeker at March 18, 2008 10:59 PM


Erin,
Prayer and Baptism in the Holy Spirit will always be a fortress of love you can return to for shelter from evil.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 19, 2008 1:02 AM


Doug honestly, us helpless girls are being picked on by mean old zeke and you're partying it up in Vegas? And where is Hisman? Looks like I'll have to be the man of this family now. On yeah and jasper.

:: laughing ::

Jess, you rock.

Posted by: Doug at March 19, 2008 2:18 AM


Zeke, can I add your picture to the who's who page? Until a few months ago, I had thought you were the blonde girl in your avatar

Bethany, I think Zeke has had impure thoughts about that girl....

Posted by: Doug at March 19, 2008 2:20 AM


And so it goes.
Two people are using the "word of God" and coming to totally different conclusions towards life matters and issues.
Bethany uses the bible and Zeke uses the bible as their authority on matters of life.
So, I will ask Zeke a simple question.

Zeke, which "bible verses" were used that gave mainline Protestants the authority to end the life of a baby in the mother, for the reasons of health, rape and incest?
Bethany.
Which bible verses were used by mainline Protestants to give them the "bible authority" to abort a child of God from the reasons of health,rape, and incest?
Were no bible verses used, to justify before God, the permission to end the life of a baby in the womb for the reason of health,rape, and incest?
Or some bible verses.?
Why do I ask?
Because from those three reasons came the expansion of abortion, to which it is today.
And it ends the connection of "doing something wrong", "against Jesus", which is discerned by reading,interpreting, the bible, or word of God, for millions of mainline Protestants.
Why do I ask?
Before the era of modern medicine, which today has made the murder of a creation of God possible, before the creation may have one breathe of air on Earth, a baby born of rape or incest, was either allowed to be murdered after birth, or not.
What did Christians do with a child of incest or rape before abortion was made into a science?
They did not have the science to abort a child each and everytime a act of rape or incest was found to have occured.
And Zeke, we do know what pagans did with children of rape,incest, or just plain not being wanted by the mother or father, the Romans had a water jug in which to drown the baby. Those who were followers of Christ did not murder their babies, and it infuriated those pagans to the point they fed um to lions. Today, those sect of Christians,who trace their history to those days of persecution are known as Catholics, Zeke. And the mainline Protestants, Zeke? They would throw their babies from rape and incest into a river and drown them as their pagan forefathers did two thousand years ago if science had not made abortion soo safe and available for mainline Protestants.
Poor Zeke, ignoring the multi-millions of fellow interpreters of the word of God(Episcopalians,Methodist,Presbyterians), which allow abortion for any reason today, and fighting the "whore of Babylon" , known as the Catholic Church.










Posted by: yllas at March 19, 2008 2:35 AM


BTW, Zeke, did you post that your a Alan Keyes for president "backer"?

Posted by: yllas at March 19, 2008 2:43 AM


Bethany.
Which bible verses were used by mainline Protestants to give them the "bible authority" to abort a child of God from the reasons of health,rape, and incest?

I don't know of any, Yllas.

Posted by: Bethany at March 19, 2008 11:54 AM


Bethany.
Which bible verses were used by mainline Protestants to give them the "bible authority" to abort a child of God from the reasons of health,rape, and incest?
Were no bible verses used, to justify before God, the permission to end the life of a baby in the womb for the reason of health,rape, and incest?
Or some bible verses.?
Why do I ask?
Because from those three reasons came the expansion of abortion, to which it is today.
And it ends the connection of "doing something wrong", "against Jesus", which is discerned by reading,interpreting, the bible, or word of God, for millions of mainline Protestants.
Why do I ask?
Before the era of modern medicine, which today has made the murder of a creation of God possible, before the creation may have one breathe of air on Earth, a baby born of rape or incest, was either allowed to be murdered after birth, or not.
What did Christians do with a child of incest or rape before abortion was made into a science?
They did not have the science to abort a child each and everytime a act of rape or incest was found to have occured.

I see what you're saying Yllas.

However, troughout the years, centuries, ages, there have been people who used God's word and twisted it to what they wanted it to say.

Even the DEVIL himself used scripture and twisted it to mean something different than what it meant.

Take the Pharisees also, who used Jesus words in an attempt to sway the public view against Him.

The Bible says that the way to life is NARROW and that FEW find it.

The fact that so many people misinterpret the Bible doesn't surprise me for that very reason.

I hope you can see where I stand now.

Posted by: Bethany at March 19, 2008 11:59 AM


Caps were used for emphasis, not shouting. :)

Posted by: Bethany at March 19, 2008 12:00 PM


Zeke, which "bible verses" were used that gave mainline Protestants the authority to end the life of a baby in the mother, for the reasons of health, rape and incest?

yllas, I'd certainly be interested to see Zeke's answer if one is forthcoming, but no "authority" is needed. Abortion was known, desired, and practiced in biblical times.

Considering the detailed rules, etc., in Mosaic law, it's awfully farfetched to maintain the writers of the Bible were against abortion and somehow just forgot to mention it.

Abortion was not against the rules back then - it didn't really matter what the reason for it was.

People had been having abortions for thousands of years before the Bible was written. It's not like the Bible had to come along and "give people the authority to have aboortions." They had them before, during and after the Bible's writing.

Posted by: Doug at March 19, 2008 7:29 PM


Yllas @ 2:35 a.m.

------------

Nothing but more anti-Protestant Nazi Yllas at work.....

Posted by: Pap Taylor Gang at March 20, 2008 12:02 AM


Doug said:
Considering the detailed rules, etc., in Mosaic law, it's awfully farfetched to maintain the writers of the Bible were against abortion and somehow just forgot to mention it.

Abortion was not against the rules back then - it didn't really matter what the reason for it was.

People had been having abortions for thousands of years before the Bible was written. It's not like the Bible had to come along and "give people the authority to have aboortions." They had them before, during and after the Bible's writing.
Posted by: Doug at March 19, 2008 7:29 PM
*******

It also could be that abortion was non-existent because women at the time would not even consider it and that's why it wasn't in the Bible.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 20, 2008 12:57 AM


Truthseeker - nope, it's known that abortion was around during that time and well before it, as well.

Posted by: Doug at March 20, 2008 1:37 AM


Doug,
Name me one.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 20, 2008 4:13 AM


Doug, per wikipedia:
The first recorded evidence of induced abortion is from the Egyptian Ebers Papyrus in 1550 BC. Well, that means at least some heathen existed in 1550 BC.

Posted by: truthseeker at March 20, 2008 4:18 AM


Truthseeker, I didn't know that. Thanks!!

Posted by: Bethany at March 20, 2008 8:20 AM


i dont know about some of these things like statistics, but i would just like to point out that i took the BC pill for 6 straight years... and after the fact had 4 miscarriages... i would never in my life get an abortion but thats my opinion and heartfelt feelings on the subject. but i would like to point out that in a way this whole abortion thing is about 2 things sex and children. just dont have sex in any way shape or form if you arent totally ready for kids... because no matter what the possibility is ALWAYS higher when your active. im not tryin to get in on this and be like high and mighty or anything like that i just thought that it was a good discussion.
i feel bad for the women who are forced ... physically forced to do this thing though... im sorry that that happens but i dont have to feel bad for the ones who just dont care for anyone else but themselves... again thats just my heartfelt opinion... ty for you time.

Posted by: Dale at March 20, 2008 6:12 PM