It is proved by science that a fetus is an individual, unique, ALIVE HUMAN being. And yes, if you want to murder another human being, it IS everyone's business.

Jenna is to be greatly pitied. She is lost and consumed with violence and hatred.
Beyond that, she is to be ignored since she has nothing intelligent to say.

Agreed, Jennifer!

Did she acknowledged she was committing murder?

as in the unlawful killing of one human being by another? Is she adding premeditation to it?

Freudian slips can be very interesting sometimes...

Please explain to me how a fetus can be an "an individual, unique, ALIVE HUMAN being" when it is completely dependent on the mother and would die if removed from the womb? It can’t breathe on its own, think for itself, feed itself, can’t feel anything, hell it’s not even a symbiotic relationship because the mother receives no physical benefits from it. The fetus is in effect feeding and living off the mother.
So how is it an individual again?

Biggz at July 26, 2010 5:25 pm

It's really not that hard to understand. All fetuses (and infants, and adults) have their own distinct, individual DNA. That DNA differentiates one specific person from another, which is also why it is used for crime solving purposes.
Also, your other criteria (breathing, thinking, feeding, and feeling for one's self) obviously applies to a multitude of other scenarios. An infant in the NICU cannot feed itself nor breathe on its own. A conjoined twin may not fully breathe on his/her own. There are cases where people with nerve problems truly can't feel heat, cold, or even when they are injured. Thinking and feeling; well, I doubt a 6 month gestation baby and a 3-month-old baby's 'thoughts' are really that far off from each other, and 'feeling' is almost impossible to quantify, although I do think pre-born humans can sense things in their surroundings, as videos of abortion have shown the babies move away from stimuli, and videos of fetal surgery show them gripping onto surgeon's fingers. Also, some recent studies related to circumcision lean more towards the fact that younger humans may actually feel pain more intensely than older ones. Nonetheless, none of those criteria validate nor disprove any person's humanity, DNA does.

Biggz,
Hey genius, where does your degree in prenatal biology and development come from? You are clearly a professed expert on the subject.

On the other hand, anyone with an ounce of common sense can readily see that it's not an eggplant in the womb, so it must be a HUMAN being. One can also see the heartbeat and brainwaves that tend to indicate life. I say tend to, because clearly in your case, that's not true.

If not feeling anything is the diagnostic criteria, then you're clearly not alive.

Biggz, all humans are dependent on other human beings from conception until death, in varying degrees.

A person in a coma, by your reasoning, is not a real person.

A child with Down's Syndrome, by your reasoning, is not a real person.

A person born without a brain, by your reasoning, is not a real person.

It's not pro-lifers who are frightening and fascist. It's pro-aborts like YOU. Your arguments rely on functionalism and location. Unborn children aren't PROPERTY. They aren't less than human. They are persons. They have a right to exist in their mother's womb. Their mother does NOT have a right to kill their unborn child, no more than she would have a right to kill her newborn. It is the same child, always. It is NOT her body, it is the child's body.

Pregnancy is not a disease, and it is, already, a terminal condition. Most women who seek abortions aren't the hard cases you pro-aborts like to use as examples--they are healthy mothers and healthy babies. There is NOT constitutional right to abort your child. That is an abhorrent thought, and it's only a matter of time until the rest of the country realizes the truth of this horrifying issue. We're almost there, even now.

Like I said, what’s in a woman’s womb may be the beginnings of a human being but it’s not a person. What’s in an egg may be the beginnings of a chicken but it’s not a rooster. Fetuses have no personality, no thoughts, and are basically a group of barely functioning human organs dependant completely on another to live. I would say a person who was brain-dead wasn’t a person anymore as well, they are a group of barely functioning human organs and you might as well pull the plug and let the nurse continue HER life.

You are just oozing compassion all over the place, Biggz.

Biggz - A human is human based on its DNA. If you are part of the human species - you are human!

And dependency has nothing to do with whether you deserve care - after all - a newborn baby is a member of the human family, and is dependent on others for care - but that does not negate it's human-ness.

When does a human stop being a human? Clearly there are lots of stages - old age, adult years, young adult years, teenagers (some would say they weren't human - but that's another story! ;)...), childhood, toddler, infant, newborn, pre-birth, fetus (little one), embryo - all part of the same human continuum starting from the moment of conception.

Fully human, developing - at different degrees of dependency - and yet part of the same human family.

I had one person try to convince me that consciousness defined human being and person-hood - if one was unconscious, then they weren't human.
Since I recently had my tonsils removed - I asked: "was I human before and after the operation, but not human during?" Of course I was fully human throughout...

Humanness is bestowed when we come into existence - at conception. This is verified by science.

Just like there is no reason to declare certain humans without merit based on their location, consciousness, degree of dependency, size, age, ethnic background, religion, function or any other reason, there is no reason to declare human pre-born children not human.

It simply defies science and logic, as well as morality.

So Biggz, do you think that infants magically gain the ability to think at birth? Because unborn children are technically considered fetuses until birth. Also, I think many mothers would say that elements of their child's personality were evident before birth.

Posted by: Amanda K. at July 26, 2010 8:56 PM

My second child has a strong personality and this was evident before birth when he became upset with my OB for putting cold transducer gel on my stomach right over him. It's one of my fondest memories of my pregnancy with him, although sometimes I don't think it's so funny when he's pitching a fit NOW (as a toddler)... LOL.

Your right Amanda.

My first child was constantly moving (quick moves) during my pregnancy. He walked (actually ran!) much earlier than my next two and was diagnosed ADHD once in school. He still likes to keep busy and works with his hands.

My second moved much less and the movements were slower (pushes rather than jabs). I actually went to the doc because I was worried that she wasn't moving enough. Early years, she was content to play quietly in the sandbox or with her toys and walked several months later. She still has a reserved personality.

My third child's movements were in between his older siblings. These activity levels still hold true today at ages 20, 16, and 14.

I saw a discovery program not long ago that tracked the personalities of preborn twins based on extensive ultrasound footage and followed those twins till they were about 5 years old.
There were DISTINCTIVE personalities displayed by each preborn twin and those same personalities were consistant later in the same children at 5 years of age.
The scientists involved in the studies were confient that these children already had developed certain personalities prior to birth.
The twins interactions with one another showed agression, passivity, sympathy and protective behaviors, in PREBORN twins, via the ultrasound, at various stages of gestation.
The active or agressive twin preborn was an active child, the passive preborn twin was the passive child, the preborn that seemed to sooth his wombmate became the nurturing child, etc.
My own twins were and are very true to what I and my doctors noticed during the many ultrasounds during pregnancy.
My doctors were high risk multiple birth only professionals, and seemed nonchalant in telling me that they could easily tell born twin personality by prenatal behaviors.
This is well known stuff in medical circles. These personalities, require conciousness, awareness, mood, etc. That is a person before birth.

Consider also, mothers everywhere will tell you that the preborn child gives so much back to its mother! It is such a beautiful time, even when yakking as I did for months, I knew I was in the midst of a miracle.
Many women will tell you that they never felt more feminine than when they were pregnant. That is why people used to call it "EXPECTING".

How warped are we as a society that we would never abort the pregnancy of an endangered zoo animal, because we know what those preborn babies are, yet we can turn off our conscience when it is our own children ...

Biggz, a person is a person, from the beginning of their existence until their death. There is no magical point where we "become" persons; we ARE persons, at whatever stage of life. An eighty year old doesn't look like a 15 year old. But neither is more "human" and "valuable" than the other.

The pro-abortion need to criminalize, demean, and dehumanize the unborn is just evidence of the warped and self-serving collective mind of the community.

Not to mention that most abortions are performed on babies who don't look like "blobs" anyway.

Biggz has totally drunk the pro-abortion kool-aid. A pre-born baby was always a baby until recently. In order to sell abortions, you have to convince your customers that their product is wanted and needed (the abortion, that is).

Our world is undergoing an epidemic of a mental illness with devastating physical effects. The mental illness is the disconnect between parent and child and the physical effect is the death of the child.

I think more people are waking up to the hypocrisy of the religious right and the anti-choice movement. Sarah Paylin is a good example of this. When her daughter became pregnant and she was asked about it her response was "We will sit down as a family and decide what to do" Now that’s a Pro-choice statement. They are anti-gay but elect gay public officials and defend their gay priests and spiritual leaders... They are the DC moral leaders who go out to bondage clubs on tax payer money. You guys try to make laws to tell other people how to live their lives and that’s just not American. I don’t mean just politics, I remember going to church... Bunch of fake people in their best dress pretending to be righteous and then talking bad about fellow congregation members in whispers.

Here is a true story for ya, when I lived in Texas I had to drive my best friend out to pick his mother up from the Kenneth Copland Ministries outside Fort Worth. On the way out there, it’s a 2 lane country road; a man in a new Cadillac came flying up behind me, slammed on his brakes, passed me, and flipped the bird. My friend looks at me and says "I bet he’s going to the same place we are". He was right. Once we arrived at the ministries we passed their private airport with 3 private planes, private radio station, 7 $500,000 RV's with marble floors, we finally get to the main building where the TV studio is and walked just inside the front doors and there was the guy who passed us and flipped the bird. He looks at us and says "Welcome and god bless you", I asked him if he drove a caddy, he said "Yes" I said your middle finger works good then? He turned red and walked away.

My best friend’s step-dad was head of security, his mom worked in accounting, his uncle was the ministries pilot, and my buddy worked in the kitchen with all the Mexicans “his mom got him the job”. Yes the kitchen was almost completely Mexican and all the staff upstairs was white but nothing new… I met the kitchen manager who said god bless me but then turned around and started screaming in Spanish at his staff. My friend said they were all like that. He would watch all these rich Christians wishing blessing to all the other rich Christians but if one of the kitchen staff forgot the butter they were treated like second class citizens. Oh and the accounting section… The amount of money that was in the receiving side of the accounting section was INSANE!!! I have never been SO discussed in my life and I told my friend I didn’t want to ever go back out there again. Shortly after that my friend and I left Texas not to return. "Except for the occasional Stars game" You know I really want to see Rome, but I am going to avoid Vatican City for the same reason. They have been doing the same thing but for a much longer time.

People are getting wise to these lies. Protected priests with altar boys as sex slaves? When Jesus said “Suffer the little children come un to me” THAT’S NOT WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!

Soo . . . what did that drivel have to do with this topic Biggz? Why didn't you respond to those of us who responded to you?

"I remember going to church... Bunch of fake people in their best dress pretending to be righteous and then talking bad about fellow congregation members in whispers."

If you are going to church for the right reasons, the people around you shouldn't affect that. God is there no matter how imperfect we are.

Biggz obviously has some personal issues to deal with that have little to do with the topic at hand.
That's like never eating Italian food anywhere again, cause your local eatery has mean customers.

Well my story has to do with the hypocrisy of a religious mindset. As the anti-choice movement is based on religious concepts like "the sanctity of life" it is obvious hypocrisy to say you support life but then go out and purchase, at an astronomical price, staged pictures of a mutilated fetus or condone the murder of doctors. You guys say you care about children and then protect the priests who rape them. You say you care about life but when these TV a$$holes are fleecing senior citizens out of their Social Security money so they have to eat dog food in the name of Jesus you say nothing. The anti-choice movement is just a bunch of self righteous hypocrites telling other people how to live their lives. Also I realize arguing about if a fetus is a baby or not is just a complete waste of time with you. You guys see it one way and we see it another. I will say it took a lot of women suffering and working very hard to secure the rights all you female anti-choicers enjoy, don’t disregard their sacrifices in the face of a false god’s wrath…

Got any more vast off topic generalizations?
I am pro-life and swear that neither I or anyone I know have never bought any "fetus pics", condoned an abortionists murders, don't have priests in my church and wouldn't condone sexual harassment of any kind by anyone anyway, never fleeced a senior citizen, etc.
If folks are giving money to ministry instead of getting themselves real food, they aren't mentally well, besides there are lots of gimick things folks can buy into that will leave them broke. Junk bonds, ponzi schemes, etc.
Lets be honest. This is not a life issue for you.
This is about hate. It is frightening to think how consumed with hate a person must be to say the type of things you say. Hate of God, Christians, prolifers, people with severe disabilities (you prefered them dead remember?). Your hate glares through your words.
You are right that we are at an impass.
We advocate that people choose life.
Our way, children live.
Your way-they don't.
To hate people who want children to live. WOW!

Biggz is not too tightly wrapped. Unable to respond to any of our thoughtful comments, Biggz just plows ahead with off-topic spewing that makes no sense.

Posted by: Biggz at July 29, 2010 4:17 PM

Biggz, I went back through the posts; NO ONE has said anything about religion except you, and those who subsequently responded to you. Even though you slander us instead of responding to our valid posts, I'll give you respect and respond to yours. 1. Although many people's views on abortion may begin with religion, the pro-life movement is also firmly rooted in SCIENCE. Feel free to prove how you think DNA doesn't signify a separate human being. 2. Agreed, even if the pictures were staged (I think you mean fake, and I personally doubt they are), where do you get the idea that we all pitched in to buy them or something? 3. Not catholic; can you please get it through your skull that many pro-lifers aren't, as well as the fact that many aren't Christian, religious in any way, or even conservative on most topics? While we're at it, can you please acknowledge that those who are religious can have opinions for reasons other than religion? 4. I've never heard anyone condone the con-artists that rip off the elderly. 5. I could care less about how someone lives her life, until the question of taking another's life is involved. 6. It shouldn't be an argument, it should be debate, but since you have no valid reasoning to defend your views with, you argue, or change the subject. 7. Do your history, the original feminists (Susan B. Anthony and the like) were strongly against abortion. If you're talking about more modern ones, all I can is that if they fought for legal abortion, the blood is on their hands and I want no part of it. And this God thing again! Why does your blind hatred cause your brain to shut off? Please stay on topic for once, that's all we ask.