Live blogging the election

UPDATE, 9:30p (CT): Ok, I'm retiring from reporting state calls for president, unless McCain picks up an unforeseen win.

A couple more disappointments, the loss of Marty Ozinga (R) as my Congressman to replace Weller and also Melissa Hart (R-PA) in a rebid for Congress in OH. Losses of such good pro-lifers. But it looks like Michelle Bachmann is hanging on.

General thoughts...

A guy interviewing me on radio yesterday asked, "If Obama wins, you know he's coming after you, right?" That had never occurred to me. The concept is so presumptuous.

Actually, the opposite had occurred to me, and that's how I responded: "No, if Obama wins, I'm coming after him."

My thought has been in recent weeks when pondering the almost unthinkable that an Obama win might provide an opening I frankly couldn't find with the Bush administration or Republican held Congress. Obama has protested so strongly that he opposes infanticide of abortion survivors, it would seem a good time to propose enforcement penalties to the Born Alive Infants Protection Act....

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UPDATE, 8:50p (CT): Fox commentators are debating whether America has gone from being a center-right country to center-left. Most thought not, but I wonder. There are many more conservatives than liberals, according to stats Bill Kristol rattled off I was not quick enough to type. But the number of moderates has increased. These are people with no set core values, as I would define them. They're not committed on one side or the other. So we're not getting through to them or losing them.
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UPDATE, 8:17p (CT): OH has just gone to Obama. Per Karl Rove on Fox: "For McCain to win, he must pick up a state won by Dems on West Coast in 2004, or MI, or HI.... No Republican has ever been elected while losing the State of OH."

Ok, beginning to see the hand-writing on the wall.
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UPDATE, 8:10p (CT): WY: Barrasso (R) won Senate; WY: Enzi (R) won Senate; KS: Pat Roberts (R) won Senate; NM: Tom Udall (D) won - another GOP seat goes to Dems; AL: Jeff Sessions (R) won; MS: Thad Cochran (R) won; MS: Roger Wicker (R) won (takeover of Lott seat).

Recap: Pick-up of 4 Democrats seats. Now at 55. Would need to win all 5 toss-up races to get to 60.
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UPDATE, 8p (CT): More polls closing... WI: Obama; NM: Obama; ND: McCain; MN: Obama; NY: Obama; RI: Obama; MI: Obama; WY: McCain; IN/NC/VA: too close to call.

Per friend Arlen: "Well, it's hanging by a thread. Looks like we'll need OH and FL, plus... CO and NV or MN."
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UPDATE, 7:40p (CT): GA called for McCain. Good.

Not good: NH: John Sununu (R) loses Senate seat. The Dem prize of 60 filibuster-proof Senate seats grows more eminent.

Hold on. GA: Saxby Chambliss (R) holds on to Senate seat. The prize quickly grows more elusive.
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UPDATE, 7:30p (CT): PA being called for Obama, definitely not good. McCain needed PA for insurance.

No surprises anywhere here: AR: McCain. MA: Kerry (D) won Senate. IL: Durbin (D) won Senate. TN: Lamar Alexander (R) won Senate.
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UPDATE, 7:12p (CT): NH called for Obama. McCain had hopes there.
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UPDATE, 7:07p (CT): Mitch McConnell called the winner in KY!

Oh, no! Kay Hagan has apparently beaten Elizabeth Dole for Senate in NC in what looks like a landslide. That does not bode well for McCain's chances.

Democrat net Senate pick-up: 2
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UPDATE, 7p (CT): More polls closing. More races called. Still no surprises. MA: Obama; MD: Obama; IL: Obama; DC: Obama; CT: Obama; ME: Obama; NJ, Obama; OK: McCain; TN: McCain; DE (Biden's home state): Obama.

Senate: McConnell (R-KY) winning but still too close to call. Dole (R-NC) race also still close.
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UPDATE, 6:59p (CT): SC has been called for McCain. Still no surprises. Hume on Fox mentioned thoughts of potential Obama blow-outs in VA and GA haven't pan out. Both are not necessarily McCain's but are too close to call. Barnes see this oppositely - problematic for McCain.

CNN is making a big deal of Obama doing better in IN than Kerry did, even though he's still behind overall. Well, duh. IN is next door to IL.
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UPDATE, 6:30p (CT): More polls closing. WV: McCain. Still no surprises, no upsets. Not good: Elizabeth Dole's (R-NC) Senate race too close too call.
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UPDATE, 6:10p (CT): Ok, we see our 1st Republican Senate seat lost. VA Repub John Warner retired and (nonrelated) Dem Mark Warner has won. SC: Lindsey Graham kept seat, good. Not good: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's (R-KY) race is too close to call.

I'm not reporting on any exit polling. Don't trust them, good or bad.
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UPDATE, 6p (CT): Ok, some polls have closed, and so far no surprises: VT, Obama; KY, McCain. IN too close to call but Fox is calling the race for Gov. Mitch Daniels, a Republican, which is a good sign.
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UPDATE, 5:23p (CT): Ok, game almost on. For 2-3 weeks I have been vascillating between calm - believing McCain/Palin will win or having a good theological grip if not - and angst. Today was no different. So I did what I usually do at times when I'm too distracted to do anything useful. I went to bed. I needed to take a nap anyway in case this is a long night. And now I'm here and ready.
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live blogging.jpgYour friendly blog correspondent will live-blog election results and thoughts tonight.

I'll be getting reports from daughter Daena at the McCain shindig in DC. I'll also be keeping tabs on the various pro-life and anti-life state referendums.

Please join me.


Comments:

Go Jill.
I don't have a TV so I'll be relying on you Jill! Anyway, I don't think I could stand to watch the MSM coverage of this election. All the liberal sniggering and snorting going on will be horrible.
sorry HisMan I don't know the exact verse, but I think there's a line in the Bible about God giving them over to their sin.....?

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 7:40 AM


" I'll also be keeping tabs on the various pro-life and anti-life state referendums."

There is a GHASTLY proposition in Michigan that would allow all sorts of horrible experimentation on embryos if passed.

Patricia,

" I think there's a line in the Bible about God giving them over to their sin.....?"

Romans 1:24?

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 7:53 AM


Ah, Psalm 81:12 seems more appropriate

"So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels."

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 7:54 AM


I just voted. There were like 4 people at my polling place @ 7:30 AM.

Posted by: Lauren at November 4, 2008 8:40 AM


Lauren-

Wow. I got in line at my polling place here in Boston at about 715-720 and I had to wait a good half an hour or so to vote.

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 8:48 AM


I think it might just be my precinct. I'm in an area w/a hospital and alot of buisnesses, but not too many houses/condos. I accidently went to the wrong place before I found the right place, and it was packed.

My neighborhood isn't very political. It's mostly hispanic and I think alot of them supported Hillary in the primaries and feel like they don't really have a horse in the race.

Posted by: Lauren at November 4, 2008 9:13 AM


"Anyway, I don't think I could stand to watch the MSM coverage of this election. All the liberal sniggering and snorting going on will be horrible."

can't we do that here?

Posted by: hal at November 4, 2008 9:16 AM


hal: you've been doing that months now.
Aren't you suppose to be in court or something?

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 9:27 AM


On my way Patricia. It's still early here.

Posted by: hal at November 4, 2008 9:38 AM


hurry it up! It can't be any too soon for some of us....

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 9:54 AM


I'll be in Phoenix at the Arizona Biltmore with John McCain and Sarah Palin tonight.

I'll take photos and send them tomorrow.

And this about the post:

"2 Thessalonians 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

Posted by: HisMan at November 4, 2008 1:03 PM


HisMan, are you still fasting?

Posted by: Hal at November 4, 2008 1:05 PM


Why is Hal going to court? You don't have to answer that, it just grabbed my attention.

Posted by: Jess at November 4, 2008 3:12 PM


Jess, it's a joke. (I think) Since I'm a lawyer. She was hoping I'd be to busy to hang out here.

Posted by: Hal at November 4, 2008 3:17 PM


Well Hal everyone seems to hate lawyers but I sure don't. Everyone deserves a fair trial and that wouldn't be possible without lawyers.

Posted by: Jess at November 4, 2008 3:25 PM


Jess said, "Everyone deserves a fair trial and that wouldn't be possible without lawyers."

And it's currently not even possible with lawyers, at least not for pre-born babies.

Posted by: Jon at November 4, 2008 3:33 PM


Well where are all the pro-life lawyers? They don't even have to be pro-life. I can give you plenty of reasons not to have an abortion or to punish abortionist right now.

Posted by: Jess at November 4, 2008 3:48 PM


Hey Jill, my wife and I went out to vote this morning. Found out that she wasn't registered right because of an address change. Drove 16 miles to where she was registered, changed her address, drove another 8 miles to our voting place. We both voted and it felt good to have a semblance of say. I admire your courage, keep on keeping on.

Posted by: Alan B at November 4, 2008 5:20 PM


Good for you, Alan!

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 5:33 PM


Hah, Jill, I did the same thing! I got up early to vote this morning, and I just got up from a brief nap so I'll be energized for the long night ahead! I look forward to reading your reactions, even though we may disagree.

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 5:37 PM


Jess,

who did you vote for?

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 5:43 PM


Hey Erin, I hope I look forward to writing my reactions... :)

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 5:45 PM


Hi Jill. I'm writing from Italy.
Here in Italy the TV coverage has mostly painted Obama as "the new", "the young", never ever talking about his almost unbelievable pro-death ideas.
It's a shame, but maybe our Christless civilization deserves to be governed by people like Obama.
May God have mercy of us all.
God bless you.
Giovanni

Posted by: agapetos at November 4, 2008 6:12 PM


Hey Agapetos, thanks for checking in. Appreciate your concern and your kindred pro-life stand. Ciao!

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 6:18 PM


So far so good... golly I"m nervous. I thought I prepared myself for the worst, but I"m really hoping that doesn't happen...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 6:22 PM


I'm heading for the adoration chapel for an hour of prayer.
Keep the faith!

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 6:42 PM


Good for you, Janet. There are still polls open.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 6:59 PM


I believe Delaware is Biden's home state, not NJ?

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 7:03 PM


I know its still really early, but so far the NObama blow out predicted by the far left media doesnt seem to be happening. Thats encouraging!!

I was listening a bit to Christian radio this afternoon. The host was asking people to phone in and say who they voted for and why.

Not surprisingly, since it was Chritian, the McCain voters outnumbered the NObama by a huge margin. I would say 3 of 4 callers.

Also every McCain voter could articulate as to why they supported him.... pro life, strong on defense and protecting the homeland, etc

The NObama supporters on the other hand couldnt. "he represents change" and other wishy washy comments were as deep as it got for almost everyone.

God bless John McCain and Sarah Palin!

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 7:05 PM


I heard that Sununu has been defeated also in NH. Two great pro life Senators have been defeated so far, him and Elizabeth Dole.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 7:37 PM


Erin, whoops, you're right.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 7:38 PM


"I heard that Sununu has been defeated also in NH"

Yeah, here in NH it's the worst. There are just Obama protesters ALL over the place. I'm constantly saturated by them, along with bumper stickers and signs. I think I see more Obama paraphernalia in one day than I have total McCain paraphernalia. I surprised it was thought that McCain had a shot here.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 7:44 PM


Darn, I was hoping that Martin would overtake Chambliss. Oh well, you win some, you lose some.

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 7:49 PM


Doesnt look like Dems will get 60 senate seats, but for sure an increased majority. Likely in the house too.

Congress had what..... a 12 % approval rate? So they are rewarded with an even bigger majority???

Those who have voted dem will get what they deserve. Unfortunately, the people who did not vote for them will have to suffer and that's not fair.... not to mention this could be a disaster for the unborn.

I think Shaheen is very pro abortion, I do not know about the woman who defeated Dole but likely also.


Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 7:55 PM


So, I work with middle school kids in Berkeley for tutoring and being a general mentor. My mentee was particularly excited about the election and kept asking about who I voted for.

I decided to probe and see what the extent of her political knowledge was, and asked her who she thought I should have voted for. She said Obama, and I asked why.

"Because McCain is scary-looking and Republicans raise taxes for Democrats."

I told her that she should keep an open mind about these things and not believe everything unless she researched for herself but she insisted that Republicans are evil. =/ I then asked her source and she cited News channels and Saturday Night Live.

-_-. Sigh. I guess this is why we don't allow 13-year-olds to vote.

Posted by: Stephanie at November 4, 2008 8:01 PM


Obama won Wyoming? Thats a serious rebuke to Dick Cheney

Posted by: Yo la Tengo at November 4, 2008 8:09 PM


Lol, I think you're confuzzled, YLT. McCain took Wyoming, Obama took Wisconsin.

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 8:13 PM


RE: Joanne at November 4, 2008 7:55 PM


You need to read up on the rules of the congress. In the Senate, dems have a 1 vote majority with Dick Cheney getting a vote in a tie breaker. In the other chamber they have only 53% of the votes, far below the 60 needed to be fillibuster proof. Thats not control, its called hanging on by a thread.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 4, 2008 8:17 PM


It's over. Obama took Ohio.

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 8:21 PM


:(

Posted by: Bethany at November 4, 2008 8:27 PM


Thank you God, for a president-elect with common sense!

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 4, 2008 8:28 PM


lol

Posted by: Bethany at November 4, 2008 8:31 PM


Thank God and God Bless!!! THIS IS A GOOD DAY! Millions of prayers are being answered tonight.

Posted by: Katie at November 4, 2008 8:31 PM


Oh too bad. So bad. Well, I guess you American's have really done yourselves in. We will see how badly these homicidal maniacs destroy your country over the next four years.
Let's hope the Republicans get their act together and find someone who can really lead the country.
Interestingly Iran, Cuba and Venezuela are thrilled. Wonder why? Cuz now they know they got a lame duck US president without the gumption to take them on.

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 8:33 PM


America (and its Christians) are now being judged. Those who look to the Lord, while being challenged and apt to see more and more calamity around us, will have a way through it.

Posted by: Arlen Williams at November 4, 2008 8:35 PM


Yep, as Jasper said, it's over. And yet for some reason, I'm optimistic. Must be my conservative nature. In defeat, I don't feel like hiding under the bed and crying like a liberal; I feel like rising up and fighting the good fight. And believe me, we conservatives will fight if Barry tries to move this country to the left, or if he makes good on his promise to attack pro-life legislation.

Fellow conservatives! It's up to us to keep America from being completely ruined by our crazy new Democrat Overlords! We don't have to defend George Bush from them anymore, thank GOD; now it's time to the go on the attack! And attack we will, if these folks think they can push our nation to the left!

Oh, and, SARAH PALIN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2012!!!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 8:35 PM


Finally! We'll have a president who knows that it's a fundamental right to be able deliver your baby half-way, stab it in the back of the head with scissors, and suck its brains out with a vacuum. How did we as a country survive the last 8 years under a leader who was opposed to that?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 8:36 PM


According to BBC Obama is waaaaay ahead. Not surprised at all.

Posted by: Leah at November 4, 2008 8:37 PM


Arlen: I agree. 1.5 million abortions per year, the terrible way that millions of people live sinfully in the gay and other impure lifestyles.
God will not be mocked. I think many Western nations have been given a chance and time is up. Look at the persecution of Christians in Britain.
Maybe it's time we all saw how really difficult life can be. Times of persecution make the church strong again.

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 8:39 PM


I'm almost afraid to call it, but I do want to say, my friends, I'm sorry for your disappointment tonight, but I'm thrilled for our country. Continue fighting for what you believe in- I, and people who believe as I do, did, and we got it. Reason says that you can do the same.

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 8:41 PM


So, I hope plenty of you attend the first big anti-Barry protest, which will be, of course, the March for Life 2009. It's two days after his inauguration. I'll be there! It might be the biggest March for Life ever.

We have two months to rest, and then it's fightin' time!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 8:44 PM


Thanks Erin. I appreciate your humility in victory. God love you :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 8:44 PM


I hope you guys get some senate seats. Personally, I dont want dems to have a filibuster proof majority, id never want any party to have that to be perfectly honest.

I'm with Erin, keep up the fight.

Besides, whats a victory without a battle to the end (without bitterness between friends of course :) )

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 8:48 PM


President Obama. I feel sick and I'm not even American. blah.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 8:48 PM


Seriously everyone, pray for Obama EVERY DAY. Starting now. No President has ever needed it more.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 4, 2008 8:48 PM


Go Pawlenty 2012...?

Posted by: Rae at November 4, 2008 8:50 PM


"Seriously everyone, pray for Obama EVERY DAY. Starting now. No President has ever needed it more."

I will Bobby.

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 8:54 PM


Bobby, if Obama is indeed president, I agree that he will then need our prayers, not our attacks.

>
King James Bible
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Posted by: Bethany at November 4, 2008 8:56 PM


Erin, Dan,

Thanks.

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 8:59 PM


I agree Bobby, but he will need a ton of prayers. This is a man far, far from God at a time when America needs a prayerful president.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 8:59 PM


Erin and Dan, you've been very gracious.

Posted by: Bethany at November 4, 2008 8:59 PM


"Fox commentators are debating whether America has gone from being a center-right country to center-left. Most thought not, but I wonder. There are many more conservatives than liberals, according to stats Bill Kristol rattled off I was not quick enough to type. But the number of moderates has increased. These are people with no set core values, as I would define them. They're not committed on one side or the other. So we're losing them."

What do we expect when most Americans are raised by public schools?

Posted by: TXJenny at November 4, 2008 9:00 PM


i'm not giving up till it's over though.

Posted by: Bethany at November 4, 2008 9:01 PM


What do we expect when most Americans are raised by public schools?

Posted by: TXJenny at November 4, 2008 9:00 PM

actually that's not the problem it's the institutes of (so-called) higher learning - the universities which are filled with these liberal quacks...

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 9:04 PM


Re: Jill's comments about center-right vs. center-left America... Fox News people are overanalyzing this election. Obama won because of anti-Bush hatred, most of which is completely arbitrary. The point is that it says nothing about the political leanings of the country in general, because the folks who decided the election were simply voting against Bush and his party, not for any particular ideology, whether liberal, conservative, or otherwise.

Based on what we know about him, Obama's going to be a lot like Jimmy Carter. He won't be able to enact many (if any) of his economic policies without driving America into a Depression, and then it'll be the days of malaise all over again. Of course, he could abandon his economic craziness like Bill Clinton did. That would certainly be a plus for America. If only it were as simple to get him to abandon his anti-life craziness. Ah well, we'll figure it out. We have plenty of time to do so.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 9:05 PM


We have two months to rest, and then it's fightin' time!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 8:44 PM

Actually, John, the fight begins tomorrow morning.

Obama has promised to make his first act the signing of FOCA which will eliminate every abortion restriction there is.

Nancy Pelosi has promised to call a special session if Obama wins and I would wager 100% of everything I own that FOCA will be on the docket.

We have just over two months to stop FOCA. Don't sleep in tomorrow. Get out and do something.

Posted by: Andrew at November 4, 2008 9:16 PM


Looks like the abortion ban in SD is going down, too.

Posted by: reality at November 4, 2008 9:21 PM


Andrew, I have to work tomorrow. Life goes on until Obama's crazy economics policies put my employer out of business. Or something like that. But thanks for pointing out that FOCA may be coming up soon. I'll be looking out for that.

Jill, Melissa Hart ran in PA, not OH. At least the Democrat who beat her (again) is somewhat pro-life. Not nearly as pro-life as she, but I'll take what I can get.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 9:41 PM


I'm mainly a lurker, but I wanted to point out that Melissa Hart is from PA. I voted for her today.

Posted by: outonalimb at November 4, 2008 9:42 PM


John, I agree this was more a mandate against President Bush and the Iraq War than anything else. But we presented serious counter reasons to oppose Obama on ideological grounds and didn't surmount.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 9:43 PM


John, outonalimb: whoops, thanks, fixed.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 4, 2008 9:45 PM


Jill, we did indeed present serious reasons not to vote for Obama. But non-political people just don't care about the issues. I'm sure you have met people and you've informed them that Obama voted for outright infanticide, and their response was, essentially, "So what?". I know I talked to plenty of people like that.

Non-political people know one thing, and that is that they don't like George Bush. That is the extent of their thought process.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 9:51 PM


Bobby Bambino @ 8:48 PM,

Seriously everyone, pray for Obama EVERY DAY. Starting now. No President has ever needed it more.

I will too.

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 9:51 PM


Well this gives my day a little boost. Maybe Obama's health care plan will pay for my crown (yeah that's 1400 bucks).

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 9:53 PM


Yeah, you guys are right. Obama might be loathsome, but nobody is completely beyond salvation. Is it too much to ask for Obama to have an epiphany? I think not!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 9:55 PM


Conservative guy on CNN said something just now: John McCain could have had a relatively easy life and a great retirement. He has overcome many obstacles on this campaign, and has done a lot of good in his life, and I think we can all pay some respects for that!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 9:56 PM


Lewandowski, you are absolutely correct. The appearance of Obama during speeches of being cool and collected is enough to win the vote of countless Americans... unfortunately...

Be prepared for the FOCA (Freedom of Choice Act) which removes practically every single pro-life victory ever won...

Posted by: segamon at November 4, 2008 9:59 PM


Obama has been elected.....

Posted by: midnite678 at November 4, 2008 10:01 PM


my 16 year old daughter had a HUGE prolife/abortion debate today with some friends.
One classmate told her it was better to abort the baby than adopt it out. Yikes.
Patrice held her ground and presented all the issues.
The debate was sparked by the US election and why they would vote or not vote for Obama.
Yay Patrice!

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 10:06 PM


Jill, we did indeed present serious reasons not to vote for Obama. But non-political people just don't care about the issues. I'm sure you have met people and you've informed them that Obama voted for outright infanticide, and their response was, essentially, "So what?". I know I talked to plenty of people like that.

The problem with that claim is that not only is it a shameless lie, it's also an obvious shameless lie. No one in their right mind believes it. Infanticide was never legal, and Barack Obama never voted to make it legal.

Posted by: reality at November 4, 2008 10:08 PM


Jill,

I am very sad - the thing that hurts is my pride - now I have to face all the women at work who voted for Obama because they like his abortion stance.

Obama can't do anything to harm you - but you can go after him full force - the people might have voted him in, but the angels are on your side!

My parents escaped communism in Cuba (one of the highest abortion rates in the world) so I know what to expect from the "Chosen One".

God bless you Jill, and my God have mercy on America.

Posted by: Mario at November 4, 2008 10:12 PM


but Obama will make it legal to kill any child anywhere before birth with impunity.
And those that do survive will be set aside to die...
It's absolutely gross.
I never thought I'd see the day when America was more socialist than Canada!

Posted by: Patricia at November 4, 2008 10:13 PM


John McCain has also taught us all a very important lesson - if you're a Republican, reaching across the aisle isn't going to help you one bit. Over twenty years of reaching across the aisle, and look what the Dems and the media did to this guy! You're better off completely ignoring the Democrats and the media and just going in, voting conservative, and keeping your mouth shut.

If you work with the Dems, they'll bite your hand off in the end. If you reach out to the media, they'll use your words against you. I hope Republicans have learned their lesson. Say NOTHING! Just go in, vote conservative, and that's it. That's how you stay in office.

That is, unless, the media targets you. Then you have to fight back, but you need to choose your words very, very, VERY carefully or they will be used against you. We learned that lesson from George Bush.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 10:14 PM


Hey reality, the election is over. You don't need to lie any longer, OK?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 10:15 PM


The problem with that claim is that not only is it a shameless lie, it's also an obvious shameless lie. No one in their right mind believes it. Infanticide was never legal, and Barack Obama never voted to make it legal.

Posted by: reality @ 10:08 PM

Whatever you say. Have a great night!!!!

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 10:17 PM


I was listening to ABC and George Will was saying he thought this was one election that no Republican could win. I have to agree, with Bush so extremely unpopular.

John McCain is a hero who sacrificed much for his country and for others. He has served his country unlike almost any other candidate that has ever ran for President. And he can be proud of all his achievements.

NObama will have a very short "honeymoon" with the voters I predict once people realize his radical agenda. It's a nightmare to think of him and Pelosi and Reid having total control so they can do whatever they please, and not answer to anyone. Their arrogance knows no bounds.

I really believe many of the people who voted for him really have no clue what they are going to be getting. No idea whatsoever. NObama will give new meaning to the word "change."

As a Christian I cant believe for a second this is the result God wanted, but He is letting people have what they want.

The nightmare scenario (Nobama, Pelosi,Reid) that we were so afraid would happen has indeed taken place.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 10:18 PM


Mario,
Know that God is with you and you'll be OK. Maybe you could carry a rosary or special prayer with you that can be a reminder for you during the day at work! God bless you.

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 10:21 PM


Well this gives my day a little boost. Maybe Obama's health care plan will pay for my crown (yeah that's 1400 bucks).
Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 9:53 PM

pip, in your dreams. Good luck colecting on his promises, and even if you do they won't cover your crown :(. But he will be building a brick fortress with bullet proof glass in your neighborhood soon where women can have their babies killed. You fools who count on compassion from such a man. I pity you. His being elected don't not justify your positions or your abortions. The bandwagon theory won't save your soul.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 10:22 PM


"If Obama wins, you know he's coming after you, right?"

Oh good grief...

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:24 PM


Conservative guy on CNN said something just now: John McCain could have had a relatively easy life and a great retirement. He has overcome many obstacles on this campaign, and has done a lot of good in his life, and I think we can all pay some respects for that!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 9:56 PM

You are right, John McCain deserves our gratitude for the sacrifices he has made for our country. Hopefully he will be able to relax and enjoy his family. He deserves it.

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 10:25 PM


I just wanted to say that I am extremely saddended at America's conscience tonight. I knew it was bad, but not this bad. Not only do we have to live with the knowledge that millions of babies will continue to die inhumanely, but we will have to worry about the future of our children. If there is a future. I truly believe Obama is the precurser if not the beginning of the end. Too many signs have pointed to it, and even I have been guilty lately of ignoring it. I pray for everyone out there, and hope your eyes are looking toward the skies. I believe it is about time, and what must come will come. I truly believe christians as well as sinners are in for some hard times. However, it will be better for the Christians. We know our future (in the end we will have victory) Let America repent.

Posted by: Missy at November 4, 2008 10:25 PM


Nice speech by McCain in acknowledging Obama's victory.

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:27 PM


Doug, Don't say anything. I'm looking for my hat.

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 10:27 PM


Very graceful, kudos to McCain.

Posted by: Erin at November 4, 2008 10:28 PM


The old McCain came back for the concession speech.
The history of this is amazing and wonderful.

Posted by: Wichita Linewoman at November 4, 2008 10:29 PM


Janet, I agree. I think running for president at his age is noble. I think he is running at this age simply trying to do his best. I really commend him for that. I probably would have retired 10 years before, and he's asking for the weight of the nation on his shoulders!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 10:29 PM


Missy,

I agree with everything you have said. I believe there are millions of NObama voters that will have buyers remorse soon, once they understand his extremely radical agenda.

Meanwhile, Pelosi I am sure is foaming at the mouth waiting to pass FOCA, and NObama will sign it.

I really am fearful for the future, not only NObama but many pro life Republicans have lost their seats, this is a terrible, terrible day for the unborn.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 10:30 PM


WL, no need to play these games about "old McCain", as if McCain suddenly became a hyper-partisan SOB over the past 12 months. The election is over and McCain lost. All of the crazy attacks on him can stop now. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even like John McCain.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 10:32 PM


patricia: but Obama will make it legal to kill any child anywhere before birth with impunity

That is just so silly...

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:32 PM


That concession speech was great.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 10:33 PM


Doug, Don't say anything. I'm looking for my hat.

Janet, you're a sweety, and I wasn't going to.

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:34 PM


McCain's concession speech made me cry.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 4, 2008 10:35 PM


Come on, Doug. How many times do I have to tell you people that the election is over? There's no need to pretend that Obama didn't vote for infanticide. There's no need to pretend that Obama didn't promise that his first act as president would be to sign the FOCA.

It's time to drop the lies.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 10:35 PM


Jill,
Thank you for all you do for LIFE. You've worked so hard, and accomplished so much; you should be very proud. God bless you!

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 10:37 PM


patricia: but Obama will make it legal to kill any child anywhere before birth with impunity

That is just so silly...
Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:32

What Patricia says is true. FOCA will override every abortion law currently in the country. There will be no abortion restrictions whatsoever.

And NObama said signing FOCA was "the first thing I would do" as President.

It's one promise he will keep I am sure.

He totally supports the culture of death.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 10:37 PM


Let's see how Obama compromises on abortion as he said he would during the debates. Then again, he's changed his position on so many things it's hard to keep track.

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 10:43 PM


I was for McCain all along, but the choice of Palin gave me pause.

I still voted for McCain, but many of the republicans I know voted for Obama, since Palin was enough to turn the tide.

Posted by: Marilyn at November 4, 2008 10:45 PM


In other news, there is an election in Western KS to determine whether to continue a cloud-seeding program, but the results are not in yet.

Posted by: Wichita Linewoman at November 4, 2008 10:47 PM


John L: Come on, Doug. How many times do I have to tell you people that the election is over? There's no need to pretend that Obama didn't vote for infanticide.

Well, John, that's pretty silly too.
....


There's no need to pretend that Obama didn't promise that his first act as president would be to sign the FOCA.

I haven't actually seen confirmation of that, but I've seen it said so many times that let's procees as if it's right.

FOCA would codify the Roe decision into law. It's not going to "make it legal to kill any fetus anywhere before birth with impunity."

I've seen so much silly mischaracterization of FOCA...

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:52 PM


Think how this night must feel to African-Americans!

Posted by: Marilyn at November 4, 2008 10:52 PM


The Abortion Ban in South Dakota has also been soundly defeated.

McCain's speech was fantastic - it was a truly classy move of him to shoosh the boo's. It's a shame Palin brought in such a nasty, racist, fear mongering tone to the campaign. I never thought it was McCain's style, and he made that all the more clear tonight. She will go down in history as the reason his bid for president failed.

Posted by: Katie at November 4, 2008 10:56 PM


Well this gives my day a little boost. Maybe Obama's health care plan will pay for my crown (yeah that's 1400 bucks).


Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 9:53 PM

And where is he going to get the money for national dental care that reaches down soo far into your striver world that your teeth are important to the O man?

First, dental care is available at any university hospital system within the USA. Cheap, and always available from dental students needing patients to practice on before they get a license from the state.

You want to pay twice for health/dental care, PIP?

Every city of any worth(think blue city) already taxes you by having a hospital district that provides "free" dental care within that hospital district taxing "area".

The O man will have no funds, as there is no national dental care as of this moment. He will tax you for that crown as your city does(you know what a escrow account is PIP?) now for that crown.

Now, once any business/industry, has a base customer mandated by the government, such as the food base consumption by welfare payments for "food", or mandatory automotive insurance, the price goes up and up.

Same with roads and any activity that goverment funds and then gives to private corporations receiving those funds.

Care to give a definition of fascism PIP? Corporate + government= ?

Or, if your really dense PIP, just why is it that a crown put on at a "university hospital" cost next to nothing PIP, as compared to the 1400 dollars you will pay for by a "private dentist"?

And why don't people use the university hospital "crown", and go to a profit motivated dentist?

But, when a person can't afford $1400 for a crown, and is forking over thouands to attend a university, then one must come to the conclusion your a poor asking for others to pay your way through life.

When will it end PIP? Being a poor, taking money "twice" by confiscatory means(taxes) from a father, mother, and their children, so they might not have the money to have their families teeth in good health, while your still being a poor with a degree?

At what age PIP will you stand on your own feet, and make a life independent of your mommy and daddy, and millions who you will take from to have your teeth look like it wasn't raised as a "poor"?

45?
50 years old?


Are teeth that are not perfect, a sign of something PIP?


Posted by: yllas at November 4, 2008 10:56 PM


Katie, the election's over, FYI. No need for the continued lies about Palin.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 4, 2008 11:02 PM


"Are teeth that are not perfect, a sign of something PIP?"

Yeah, they are a sign that I need to stop chewing ice.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 11:02 PM


There's no need to pretend that Obama didn't promise that his first act as president would be to sign the FOCA.

I haven't actually seen confirmation of that, but I've seen it said so many times that let's procees as if it's right.

FOCA would codify the Roe decision into law. It's not going to "make it legal to kill any fetus anywhere before birth with impunity."

I've seen so much silly mischaracterization of FOCA...
Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 10:52 PM

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf0XIRZSTt8

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 11:03 PM


PIP, chewing ice is sometimes a good way to stay awake.

You deserve a crown, but not just for your teeth, for your head!

; )

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 11:04 PM


Joanne, just read FOCA. The mischaracterizations that we've seen here are easy to spot.

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 11:05 PM


"A nation that kills it's unborn is a nation without HOPE." Mother Teresa

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:06 PM


It's a shame Palin brought in such a nasty, racist, fear mongering tone to the campaign. I never thought it was McCain's style, and he made that all the more clear tonight. She will go down in history as the reason his bid for president failed.

Posted by: Katie at November 4, 2008 10:56 PM

Yeah. (Sigh.) Too bad she was in it.

Posted by: Marilyn at November 4, 2008 11:07 PM


In relation to MA:

There will still be an income tax (yay for my tuition and fees not going up about $5800!)

Possession of under 1 ounce of marijuana has been decriminalized

Dog racing will be phased out of the commonwealth by 2010 (along with over 1000 jobs and state revenue, unfortunately, though Jess I'm sure you're psyched about this :) )

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 11:09 PM


This was a season that was difficult for any Republican to win. McCain would've lost by alot more if it wasn't for Palin. She energized the base.

Marilyn and Katie are upset she didn't abort her babies. You frauds.

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 11:11 PM


Iv'e already talked to a couple of friends who have small businesses and they were holding off on letting people go. Now that Obama is in they will start laying people off. Good luck with Guess Obama's theory about spreading the wealth when there is no wealth to spread. And we won't be attracting any new foreign investors either. I am getting my T-shirt printed up tomorrow. It will say "Don't blame me" on the back, and "I voted McCain" on the front.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:13 PM


I will fight the good fight, I will finish the race, I will keep the faith-no matter what! I

Posted by: Starla at November 4, 2008 11:15 PM


WA is projected to legalize physician assisted suicide, AK has banned gay couples adopting, FL and Arizona have banned gay marriage, CA results are all still coming in, SD and CO's abortion laws failed, MI has legalized medicinal marijuana, and thats all I remember of the major ballot ?s off the top of my head.

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 11:15 PM


"She energized the base. "

Actually Jasper, so far, the results for this year show the lowest turnout for registered republicans in recent history.

She energized the base in to staying home tonight and letting Obama win.

Posted by: Katie at November 4, 2008 11:16 PM


TS-

laying off now? That isnt obama's fault. He isn't in office, his tax plan hasnt even been proposed in congress nor has it even been approved. Laying off now would be worse than waiting and just makes them look bad, not Obama.

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 11:17 PM


Iv'e already talked to a couple of friends who have small businesses and they were holding off on letting people go. Now that Obama is in they will start laying people off.

Oh please, TS. It was coming anyway.

"Youth of the Nation."

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 11:17 PM


"PIP, chewing ice is sometimes a good way to stay awake."

That's very true, but my dentist said that if I chew it any more, depending on how bad the crack is, it could wildly exacerbate the problem and I don't want to lose a tooth lol

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 11:19 PM


The Abortion Ban in South Dakota has also been soundly defeated.

Posted by: Katie at November 4, 2008 10:56 PM

Such bans will eventually pass, as those that practice what they preach will make it impossible to stop such bans, by aborting the voter that might have voted against the ban on abortion.

As time goes on, and abortion is understood by it's success within families, the child of abortive parent(s) will produce more pro lifer children or disappear in time.

Or, every civilization that is based on killing their own has disappeared from the Earth.

From Egypt to Russia today. China will cease to be anything within 30 years from the success of the civilization knowing that the "civilization's government" actually hates itself.

Or, as Mao said, when asked about the American revolution, he replied", It's to soon to judge".

And as far as population figures go. Nations or civilizations have always lied about the number of citizens they had or have.

Why? Because of the oldest known fact, is that there is strength in numbers, and is basic to power and safety of that civilization, or nation state.


Posted by: yllas at November 4, 2008 11:20 PM


AW Biden's mom looks so happy!

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 11:21 PM


Dan, missouri passed the renewable energy bill and the home health care bill!

Jury is still out on the gambling for education one- I voted against that.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 11:23 PM


TS-

laying off now? That isnt obama's fault. He isn't in office, his tax plan hasnt even been proposed in congress nor has it even been approved. Laying off now would be worse than waiting and just makes them look bad, not Obama.

Posted by: Dan at November 4, 2008 11:17 PM

Dan,
By now I don't mean tomorrow. They are planning it for year end.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:26 PM


Really PIP,

You really are dumb by ignoring simple questions about the reality of where be da money for such national, non-existent dental health programs.

When will you stop taking from families with children by local and national? taxes for dental care, and your fear of not ever having the money to pay your own way in life?

Posted by: yllas at November 4, 2008 11:29 PM


Iv'e already talked to a couple of friends who have small businesses and they were holding off on letting people go. Now that Obama is in they will start laying people off.

Oh please, TS. It was coming anyway.

"Youth of the Nation."

Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 11:17 PM

No Doug, they are laying off due to the changes coming in the tax code which will actually make it more profitable for a business owner who makes less and pays fewer people.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:30 PM


I predict that the election of this new President with such an extreme approach to this fundamental human rights issue assures a new birth of a new movement unlike this Nation has ever seen. So to my fellow Pro-life Americans who are tired, disappointed, distraught and dismayed, I say never lose hope. Our position concerning the humanity of children in the womb is revealed in the Natural Law and confirmed by medical science. It is true. It will be recognized and prevail as certainly as the truth concerning the intrinsic evil of slavery came to be recognized and prevailed in this Nation.

May God have mercy on this nation.

Deacon Fournier

Posted by: Jasper at November 4, 2008 11:33 PM


Joanne, just read FOCA. The mischaracterizations that we've seen here are easy to spot.
Posted by: Doug at November 4, 2008 11:05 PM

It's you who needs to read it. NObama totally supports NO restrictions on abortion whatsoever.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 11:37 PM


Real people of color????? I guess I haven't met the real ones then???? Everybody who voted for Obama just because he was black should feel like a whore. His affiliations and extreme ideological views would have disqualified any white candidate in the first month of trhe primary. And America missed out on a once in a generation opportunity to be lead by a "real" hero. I guess it didn't matter to most people because he was not a real person of color huh?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:41 PM


Whores? Really Truthseeker?

You're a classy, classy man.

Posted by: Rae at November 4, 2008 11:42 PM


"Maybe next time they can make prostitution for education. No one is harmed by gambling or sex, PIP. "


Yeah, you might want to re-read what I wrote.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 4, 2008 11:49 PM



Doug is a fascist toddy, who takes by fascism from the poor, and gives to himself a trip to foreign lands where he spends his fascist booty on non-Americans.

Energy to the masses should be free.

Not paying off two houses, and spending the American poor's money in foreign lands. Degrading the locals of foreign lands by having them wait on the fascist Doug hand and foot.

Good American's have no need for a pig that owns two houses out of his greed that takes from the most desperate in the nation.

Posted by: yllas at November 4, 2008 11:50 PM


Rae, maybe whore wasn't the best word. What do you call somebody who votes based solely on the race of the candidates?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 4, 2008 11:52 PM


@Truthseeker: Beats me. Mostly because I don't care.

Posted by: Rae at November 4, 2008 11:54 PM


I used the word whore because of it's connotation to somebody who "sell's" themselves. People who disregerded Obama's barbaric positions regarding partial-birth abortion and his opposition to the BAIPA were
"selling" their souls for a promise of free health insurance or some sort of reparation to black people.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 12:02 AM


Doug's future.

Or PIP gets a lesson in medical funding in socialist nations. Drink up commrade.

You like a Chimey with that future denouncement by your fellow fascist Doug? As much as you post at this site, one might conclude your a worthless parasite worker in need of being retired or jailed by the Poor and Cold people's court.


Tell us that true life story again, about how you were denied some bruskies at some hick place you fill up your gut on, from taking from the poor, and drinking away their money, dude?


Gorbachev's original theory was that the socialist system was in good working order, but the people, the cogs in the communist machine, had taken to laziness, drunkenness, and were accumulating "dishonest income" in violation of socialist ethics. His first reform was to call for "a restructuring of people's thinking."

The anti-alcohol campaign began right away. Party bosses sternly announced that they didn't want any "drunks" in their country. Their enforcers began a concerted effort to discover anyone with the smell of alcohol on their breath and haul them into the police station. When the police stations became overcrowded, it became routine practice to drive thousands of people about fifteen miles out of town and drop them in the cold and dark. Nearly every night, you could see armies of so-called drunks walking miles back to town in the middle of winter.

Over 90 percent of liquor stores were closed. The Party bosses did not anticipate what happened next: sugar, flour, aftershave, and window cleaner immediately disappeared from the shelves. Using these products, the production of moonshine increased by about 300 percent in one year.

The predictable result was a heavy loss of life. From 13,000 to 25,000 people died from drinking poisonous homemade alcohol. Many more died standing in lines for five hours to get the little bit of official liquor that was left. Meanwhile, Gorbachev and loyal Party bureaucrats — who said the dead deserved their fate — would get expensive liquor from the West delivered to their homes and offices. Many families would spend up to 75 percent of their official income on alcohol. But with Gorbachev's campaign, every other household began moonshining.

"Gorbachev was from a peasant family in South Russia, where he witnessed first hand the malnutrition, hunger, and even starvation that socialism caused.Revenues from alcohol sales (taxed up to 6,000 percent) were a major source of funding for the central government, generating enough to fund the entire medical budget. The campaign ended when the government realized it was costing too much. The government's budget began to lose 25–30 billion rubles per year. Moreover, Gorbachev learned what previous regimes had understood: it is easier to govern people who are drunk because they withstand humiliation and abuse better. When people are sober they begin to care about politics and are not nearly as passive. So Gorbachev did an about-face and ordered a massive increase in alcohol production. And he had the government make it available to be sold everywhere, even toyshops and bakeries.

The anti-alcohol campaign did irreparable damage to the economy. With state revenues having been severely curtailed, an economic chain reaction set in that hurt every sector. The central bank began to print money, leaving too much money chasing too few goods. Consumers used to get enough to survive from state stores, but new disposable income saved from not buying alcohol was spent on goods. The end result was massive shortages. And to correct for the deficit, services were drastically cut, even while Gorbachev restricted private alternatives.

Then Gorbachev began a campaign against "dishonest income." Like Stalin and Khrushchev before him, he declared all sources of income other than official salary to be an evil to be stamped out. For example, if a person rented a room out in his house, he received "dishonest income" and all parties would be severely punished. The problem was not a single person in the Soviet Union was untainted by unofficial economic activity. The official economy did not produce enough of anything desirable, so if a person was untainted, he was probably already dead.

Party bureaucrats bulldozed thousands of gardens in the backyards of peasant's homes, often filled with fresh fruits and vegetables. "Illicit" farmers' markets were closed. The bureaucrats cracked down on such activity as currency exchanges and unofficial transportation. Chaos reigned in the housing market, where the penalty for renting out an apartment for profit would be to have your whole home confiscated.

To make sure that all goods sold were licitly produced, bureaucrats enforced a system of applying certificates to all goods. To get one, a person had to prove that whatever he was selling at the market was approved ahead of time. But the system was evaded like everything else: the certificates were sold by petty bureaucrats for high bribes. Even after the Chernobyl nuclear accident, a vendor could pay a bureaucrat a fee to have food declared radiation free.

Price controls in cooperative markets were strictly enforced, so that all prices had to be the same as in state stores. For example, beef was supposed to be 4 rubles per kilo. As a working economist in Moscow, my first thought was, "all beef will disappear from the market." But when I went to the market to see what was going on, to my surprise beef was available. It turns out that farmers were shrewdly selling 4 rubles' worth of beef, but attached would be a huge dinosaur-sized bone that brought the total weight to one kilo. With a complex system of selling meat plus huge bones, supply and demand met and there were no meat shortages.

"A reformist communist is only marginally better than an orthodox one. His goals and methods should have been condemned, just as one would condemn a successor to Hitler who claimed to be a 'reformist Nazi'."Things were different in the market for rabbit meat, which was supposed to sell for 3 rubles per kilo. It was impossible to find a bone heavy enough to add to the total weight that could also have plausibly come from a rabbit. Rabbit meat disappeared very quickly. The campaign against dishonest income made the unofficial economy even more unofficial and therefore less efficient. For customers it meant very high prices, because any operator remaining in the underground added a large risk premium to their products.

The most visible results of the campaign against dishonest income were an increase in bribes and a reshuffling of power in favor of the bureaucrat-led mafia. Soviet bureaucrats were always pleased when new laws were passed because it gave them a chance to extract even more bribes. It was especially helpful when the punishments for violating the law were severe; it provided an opportunity to scare people. People in higher positions could use information to control underlings, or even to leapfrog to higher positions. So many of Gorbachev's people used their information to extract bribes and advance their careers.

Within the first year, 150,000 people went to prison for making dishonest income, 24,000 of whom were top bureaucrats. Nobody went to jail in the name of enforcing the law or the Constitution. They were sent because they were unable to evade someone else's personal vendetta, or they were destroyed by bribes demanded by their black-market competition.

Government officials were reluctant to take cash bribes because it would mean going to prison. So they worked through intermediaries like the police. A policeman would come to visit someone in their home or office, and threaten him with severe punishment for some alleged indiscretion. The accused must come up with enough bribe money to clear his name.

I once knew a man who was head of a huge, multi-hundred-thousand-ruble furniture manufacturing enterprise. He did his best to stay away from underground activities, and on his salary he could afford to. But he had an enemy in the Party, and one day he got a visit from a policeman accusing him of dishonesty in record keeping. (Police work is a highly valued occupation because of the opportunity for receiving bribes.) Instead of paying the appropriate bribe, the man maintained his innocence. Then a team of six accountants came into his offices and combed through his records over a period of weeks. Finally, they found a 34-ruble mistake, which they said was deliberate dishonesty.

After a hearing, the state attorney threatened the man with eight years in prison. His own attorney, whom he had to bribe, told him the best solution was to pay 15,000 rubles — divided among the prosecutors, the bureaucrats, and the judge — so the affair could end. The man finally gave in and paid the bribe. Still, the judge punished him for his prior intransigence by giving him a one-year suspended sentence.

The law against dishonest income even affected academia, where many professors took bribes for good grades. After the law took effect, a tremendous reshuffling took place at universities, based on a complex matrix of exchanges of information and bribes.

It is easy to see how the campaign completely discouraged people from any kind of economic activity. Since the state sector was heavily subsidized, and price controls were enforced at cooperatives, a sizable portion of what market did exist was destroyed. And this was under Gorbachev's hand. The campaign, begun in 1986, lasted only one year.

"Gorbachev preferred to think like a communist: everything can be done by issuing orders, no matter how perverse, contrary to human nature, and brutal they may be."After wreaking havoc on the economy through his first two campaigns, Gorbachev initiated a third: in favor of "labor discipline," that is, forcing people to show up on time and work harder. In this, Gorbachev was following a similar campaign by his mentor Andropov (who had people rounded up in the streets and destroyed their lives for not acting like slaves). Gorbachev initiated harsh measures against "lazy" people, making it easier to find and prosecute anybody the government did not like. If a person was absent for three hours, they would lose their job. Instead of giving two weeks' notice to change jobs, employees had to give two months'. Enterprises would hold three-hour meetings, on paid time, to denounce one person for being ten minutes late to work and blame him for all problems. People out in public in midday were questioned and harassed.

This campaign came to a quick halt because it antagonized many people and did not seem to be helping the economy. In fact, the problem was not labor discipline. The problem was Gorbachev's absurd campaigns in favor of a failed economic system.

Gorbachev's final effort, before he began speaking about "the market," was a short-lived campaign for new "quality" standards. The central plan had always emphasized the quantity of output, but never the quality. So 150,000 new bureaucrats were hired to oversee the "quality of output." Every state enterprise had a special division on quality that would police the factory, providing ever more opportunities for bribes — resulting in more bribes and more failure.

That was the last attempt to resuscitate the communist world through conventional means. Yet Gorbachev still had not gotten the message. At a closing speech to the Central Committee in June 1987, Gorbachev said that he would "rebuff anyone who offers us antisocialist alternatives."

When all else was exhausted, Gorbachev began to speak about markets — a "planned, regulated, socialist market." He had his paid academics find quotes from Marx and Lenin to support his new idea, which is easy to do since together their work makes up 105 volumes. No one takes Marx and Lenin as gospel, but the head communist always has to justify his deeds with the Holy Writ of communism.

The first effort in the creation of this new market was to enact huge "budget cuts." Even government propaganda reinforced the change. Films showed Party chiefs as beggars on the street, sitting with their derbies in hand, while rich, fat free marketeers generously flipped them kopeks. Everyone was paralyzed with fear that they would be fired, and so by the second half of 1987, most people simply stopped working.

The budget cuts appeared to be a reality when Gorbachev sacked 600,000 bureaucrats from central operations of the ministries — which amounts to 30 percent to 50 percent of each department. Alongside that, however, he also created a set of new mega-enterprises to substitute for the ministries. A study I did of these new enterprises at the time showed they hired 720,000 people, most of them just-fired bureaucrats, but with a generous 35 percent salary increase. Gorbachev's "cuts" actually represented a twenty percent increase in the managerial sector of the Soviet state, which was exactly the point of the move. The old structures of the command economy began to disintegrate with all these changes, reversals, and talk of creating a market. But since no market was actually set up, everything came to a standstill.

"The head communist always has to justify his deeds with the Holy Writ of communism."The Law on Cooperatives — a new regulation allowing pseudoprivate ownership — seemed to be a step in the right direction. But in fact the newly created cooperatives became an organized mafia themselves, extracting and paying out bribes at an unprecedented rate. As soon as a person started a business, the fire department would arrive to close everything down and then wait for bribes. A person could sue the fire department, but he would have to pay a bribe to the judge. In the Soviet Union, people learned that it is better to pay bribes directly. Thus Gorbachev's new "market" was not an authentic one. It piled new regulations and ministries on top of the old, and never allowed private property and real buying and selling.

A young man from a peasant family I knew had heard that market activity was legal, and decided to raise a pig to sell in the market. For six months, this hopeful entrepreneur devoted his time and money to caring for it and feeding it, hoping he would earn twice his money back by selling it. Never was a man so happy as when he took the pig to market one morning. That night I found him drunk and depressed. He was not a drinker, so I asked him what happened. When he arrived at the market, a health inspector immediately chopped off a third of the pig. The inspector said he was looking for worms. Then the police came and picked the best part of it, and left without even saying thank you. He had to pay bribes to the officials in charge of the market to get a space to sell what was left. And he had to sell the meat at state prices. By the end of the day, he earned barely enough to buy one bottle of vodka, which he had just finished drinking. This was Gorbachev's new market in a nutshell.

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:05 AM


Yllas,

Please with the personal attacks... please stick to the campaign and life issues...

re:Posted by: yllas at November 4, 2008 11:50 PM

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 12:06 AM


Outside of the presidential race and seats:

The CO personhood amendment was obliterated

The SD abortion ban lost by a bigger margin than it did in 2004

The Embryonic Stem Cell Research bill in Michigan passed by a significant margin

The Parental Notification bill in CA has failed soundly

Physician Assisted Suicide passed by a large margin in WA


America has spoken, and pretty loudly. Maybe, just maybe, don't you think it's time to reconsider your methods? Seems clear to me, Yllas and Truthseeker, that your vitriol has only served the other side.

Posted by: Katie at November 5, 2008 12:12 AM


What personal attacks?

Is a person that works in private industry who gets a paycheck from being in a monopoly industry formed by a government, not a fascist?


Doug is a daliy worker of a fascist corporation created by government fiat. They take from the most needy(cold) and give the profits from the most needy to corporate/government overseerers.

Energy should be free, and obviously if killing your own is a right, so must be energy that keeps humans alife be a right.

McCain lost from being in favor of corporate welfare as is the O man. You can pick a reason, matters not to me.

Pip is asked to answer simple questions. One being that her failure to plan financially for a crown doesn't mean taking money from families in need for crowns by local and national confiscatory taxes.

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:19 AM


"Maybe, just maybe, don't you think it's time to reconsider your methods?"

Katie,

I don't think pro-lifers need to change their methods... you pro-deathers need to change your methods and stop carrying out terror on unborn children.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 12:23 AM


yllas, it's not that I can't answer your questions, it's that I don't want to. Mainly because you went on a tirade based on my half-joke. I realized it wasn't that funny (I wasn't laughing in the dentist chair today) but I also realized that it was in your nature to take something random and go on a tirade about it. Hey keep going, my communist tooth thanks you for your interest.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 5, 2008 12:24 AM


Physician Assisted Suicide passed by a large margin in WA


America has spoken, and pretty loudly. Maybe, just maybe, don't you think it's time to reconsider your methods? Seems clear to me, Yllas and Truthseeker, that your vitriol has only served the other side.

Posted by: Katie at November 5, 2008 12:12 AM

Fits right in with national health care being rationed to the most deserving party member.

Yes, Katie is another rich person who hates people taking her "state wealth" and wants the poor to pay by mandatory taxes of the state for their own suicide.

Does your party membrship card insure your not being deemed another useless eater Katie?

Are you one that practices what you preach, and ask nothing of your fellow citizens by adminstering your own death as soon as your realize the worthlessness of your being alife one second beyond your decision to kill yourself?

Do it yourself coward, don't be violating my morals via taxes, and your wanting to murder by suicide, yourself and others.


Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:28 AM


Outside of the presidential race and seats:

The CO personhood amendment was obliterated

The SD abortion ban lost by a bigger margin than it did in 2004

The Embryonic Stem Cell Research bill in Michigan passed by a significant margin

The Parental Notification bill in CA has failed soundly

Physician Assisted Suicide passed by a large margin in WA


America has spoken, and pretty loudly. Maybe, just maybe, don't you think it's time to reconsider your methods? Seems clear to me, Yllas and Truthseeker, that your vitriol has only served the other side.
Posted by: Katie at November 5, 2008 12:12 AM

As a Christian I find this appalling.

Assisted suicide is now legal in at least 2 states, it will soon spread to others.

What is next?

And its more than obvious what I think about the abortion ones.

Posted by: Joanne at November 5, 2008 12:35 AM


You know, I don't agree with McCain on any issue other than abortion, and I voted for Obama.. but, I felt bad for McCain when he was giving his speech. I think he's probably a good person, and while I'm glad for America that he lost.. well, I felt like I was seeing my Grandpa. Poor guy.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:36 AM


America has spoken, and pretty loudly. Maybe, just maybe, don't you think it's time to reconsider your methods? Seems clear to me, Yllas and Truthseeker, that your vitriol has only served the other side.

Posted by: Katie at November 5, 2008 12:12 AM
Katie, I follow one path and that is the path of my Lord Jesus Christ. Abortion is an abomination. I don;t pretend to be able to stop "Americans" if they wish to march together to bid the Devil's work and build baby killing fortresses in suburbia throughout the country. I am simply a voice of Christian reason. It is only cause you see your right to choose to murder your babies in your womb as more important than supporting a culture of life for America and the rest of the world that see my love for mankind as "vitriol". I pray God will free you from the deception and let you feel that the unborn deserve your compassion. Mother's who do not understand this fail to realize that their position will one day soon beget the same lack of respect for their "wanted" children. Laws will be passed where you will lose your "right" to birth that child because according to our laws and government that child is not worthy of protection. In the future why should government hold a father or anybody else responsible to help you raise your child if they prefer to "opt" out before the baby is delivered? You are damning your children to protect your own right to murder them when you see fit.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 12:42 AM


yllas, it's not that I can't answer your questions, it's that I don't want to. Mainly because you went on a tirade based on my half-joke. I realized it wasn't that funny (I wasn't laughing in the dentist chair today) but I also realized that it was in your nature to take something random and go on a tirade about it. Hey keep going, my communist tooth thanks you for your interest.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 5, 2008 12:24 AM

You don't want to??

Simple questions about taxes and how they are raised from the poor actually paying for the poor. A poor person how uses the public health system in a city are charged by that "university hospital" the same as a private hospital. Both place liens on wealth. One being the house, a poor is trying to keep to give to someone else(maybe a striver like you PIP) or any matter recorded by the government. That is what the O man is going to do you and your to slow to understand how taxes are placed upon those that produce the need for taking from the poor, and giving less to the poor, by educated people being assured of a base pay in their profession.

See doctors to dentist actually being payed by the government, an the government then taking the poor's material wealth through unpayed medical bills at that so called free hospital. Which is run by fat cat fascist university doctor's,etc.. Taxes that pay for NOTHING when you use the government service . Your ignorant PIP. A striver, who strives as all self centered full o' fear youth in this nation strive for others to pay your way.

At what age do you really grom up and become independent of others paying your way in life PIP?

And you know that your viable PIP. Really, are you?

Your a fake PIP, a person playing around with some dental problem which you should pay for by planning ahead for dental expenses.

All the while asking that families give you their money so you can post about your crown and the O man taking more from children of those families working parents.

Fact is, one can sum you up quite easily.

Given only that YOU or a child of a family needs a crown, would you allow the child the crown before your striver needs for a crown?

And I'll show you a liar who answers as any party hack answered that question in any socialist nation.

Got a party card yet PIP?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:49 AM


You know, I don't agree with McCain on any issue other than abortion, and I voted for Obama.. but, I felt bad for McCain when he was giving his speech. I think he's probably a good person, and while I'm glad for America that he lost.. well, I felt like I was seeing my Grandpa. Poor guy.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:36 AM

Josephine, what is it that made you vote for Obama? Is the economy more important to you then the lives of the unborn? Is it cause you thought the black guy desrerved a shot? Is it a chance at free health care for you and your family? You sold your soul Josephine and 50 million unborn babies are crying out for reparation. How can you live with your vote knowing that four thousand nore babies will get aborted every day thanks to you? Your vote for Obama puts the blood of childrfen not only in America, but throughout the world, on your hands and you won't be able to wash it off without repentance. Lord help us all.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 12:49 AM


I can live with my vote because it will save lives of soldiers, the elderly, and the poor. I don't feel badly one bit about my choice, and I couldn't be happier that he won.

How dare you say babies will get aborted "because of me". Babies will get aborted because their mother chose to abort them. I wouldn't chose to abort a baby. 4,000 babies could get aborted tomorrow, and I wasn't old enough to put Bush in office.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:54 AM


Yllas, you work for the US Postal Service. You feed off the tax titty.

Posted by: Laura at November 5, 2008 12:33 AM

Nope. Take another guess Laura.

I would never take money by confiscatory means as all strivers do out of the fear of being a poor.

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:55 AM


Josephine,

You just voted for the most pro-abortion candidate in the history of the U.S.

congratulations.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 12:57 AM


I can live with my vote because it will save lives of soldiers, the elderly, and the poor. I don't feel badly one bit about my choice, and I couldn't be happier that he won

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:54 AM

Not according to Biden. Someone in great numbers is going to pay with their life and test that spineless politician.

You can't know the future Josephine, but Biden knows, right?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 12:58 AM


Josephine, You cannot deny that you voted for the most pro-abort politician in the nation to be our leader. So many of you seek cover by saying "I wouldn't chose to abort a baby." and they hide themselves within the fact that their vote was just one of a majority. Along with that vote comes responsibility, and you cannot deny that more babies will be killed for many years to come because of the votes of you and others like you.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:00 AM


I can live with my vote because it will save lives of soldiers, the elderly, and the poor. I don't feel badly one bit about my choice, and I couldn't be happier that he won.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:54 AM

Josephine, Why do you suppose McCain was getting the vote of 90% of the soldiers that you say you care so much about?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:04 AM


I am not ashamed at all by my vote. I just do not believe abortion is the most important issue on the ticket, and obviously I wasn't alone in that. I felt he was the best candidate. So, I'm going to ignore the sarcasm and say thanks for the congratulations.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:07 AM


McCain did ABSOLUTELY not get the vote of 90% of the military and to suggest that is RIDICULOUS.

And the soldiers I care so much about: I am one. 86Whiskey. I'm damn proud of it, and I'd like to..not see my friends die. That's be tops. Obama plans to put a slow stop to the war, and McCain planned to send more of us. I'm not sure why you'd argue with me.. McCain lost and Obama won. That's all there is to it.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:10 AM


Josephine,
No shame for the deaths of the unborn Josephine?
No shame = no repentance = no forgiveness.
You are creating a world for yourself where some day soon "wanted" babies may be treated with that same disregard. If you don't have compassion for the unborn and respect their right to survival, then how can you hope to live in a world where life is respected?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:15 AM


So a guy with no foreign policy experience, who befriends radical extremists including at least one unrepentant terrorist, who voted "present" over 100 times rather than take a stand on important issues,who is the most radical pro abortion candidate ever, who advocates "spread the wealth" ( take from Peter to pay Paul), who refuses to have the American flag on his airplane or wear it on his lapel.... is this the guy who is the best candidate?

Unfortunately millions of people thought so.

Posted by: Joanne at November 5, 2008 1:16 AM


Moot point. You lost.

But, because you seem intent on arguing (I'm not sure why) I'll tell you: I don't value the life of an unborn child more than I value that of an elderly woman. You can say that a baby is defenseless.. but so are the elderly and the poor. They need help just as much an infants in the womb. I wish there was a candidate that planned to take care of both, but there wasn't. In all actuality, I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries. I think he was a fantastic man.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:20 AM


"Throughout the world", truthseeker?

What the holy hell was McCain going to do to overturn abortion legality across the world?

You people are goddamned deluded.

:P

Bye

Posted by: Anonymous at November 5, 2008 1:10 AM

My parents taught me that the USA is supposed to be an example of a society where human rights are respected and a beacon for the rest of the world. If we cannot even show respect for the lives of our unborn, then why should China or anyone believe we respect life? Adopting a pro-life platform as a nation would make us an example of justice and compassion to the world. If you want other countries to live with us in a world of mutual respect then we need to lead by example and respect the rights to life of our own offspring.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:21 AM


"I don't value the life of an unborn child more than I value that of an elderly woman. You can say that a baby is defenseless.. but so are the elderly and the poor."

Josephine,

we cannot legally kill the poor and elderly in this country like we can with unborn children.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:23 AM


Anonymous,

please use a name, and this is not a liberal blog, watch your language.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:25 AM


The government can take away their benefits and make it impossible for them to stay alive. Thank God that didn't get a chance to happen today!

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:25 AM


Josephine,

what are you talking about, are you saying John McCain will take away health care from the elderly and poor? where's your proof?

I know for a fact that today it is legal to KILL unbirn children, 48,000,000 have been slaughtered.

You can't say that about the poor or elderly.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:30 AM


You people are goddamned deluded.

:P

Bye

Posted by: Anonymous at November 5, 2008 1:10 AM

And when the O man finishes with you, you'll be denuded asking where one can buy a towel to cover your socialist president's demand economy.

I command you stop buying without paying. No, buy more, or there will be a depression, no pay what you owe and then I'll raise your taxes to get that debt money back to the rich who loaned it to you in the first place.

Yes, annonymous, your age of prosperity is over. Taking from the poor and giving to the rich is just the beginning of the O man bamboozling you with that rich envy. All the while you worshipped the O man's "future benefits", he said not one word about getting some of that lost money of the middle class, that is ignorant enough to have invested in 401k's mutual funds,CDO's REIT's, and more ways to get the middle class idiots future retirement and excess wealth.

Anonymous, all for the idea of getting a abortion dude in office. Quite expensive to elect a president who said not one word of getting that wealth back to the middle class flunkies, such as the fascist flunkies known as government workers , and other suckers of the "middle class".

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:32 AM


"I don't value the life of an unborn child more than I value that of an elderly woman."

Josephine, how much if any value do you place on the life of an unborn child? What was so important about this election that you think you had to vote for Obama to save the lives of the elderly? Couldn't you have done even more for the elderly by voting against Obama in order to reject the cuture of death, and then voting for Hillary in 2012, or was it specifically Obama that you see as the saviour of the elderly?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:33 AM


As a Christian I cant believe for a second this is the result God wanted, but He is letting people have what they want.

The nightmare scenario (Nobama, Pelosi,Reid) that we were so afraid would happen has indeed taken place.

Posted by: Joanne at November 4, 2008 10:18 PM


Joanne - So God takes his\her hand off of the world simply over politics? Either God is in control all the time or we're just spinning around in the absence of direct control of God. I believe in God too but it just seems like your belief is so hinged on God as a partisan figure. I always thought that God was bigger than my politics, bigger than your politics. I don't claim to know what God wants or thinks but far be it from me to say that God has let us go over one vote. What happened when Bush invaded Iraq? Did God ordain a war for oil or was that Bush's personal folly?

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 5, 2008 1:34 AM


You think an elderly person could get quality health care for $5000? You honestly believe that? If so, I'd have to say you're crazy. And I'm not saying he WILL... I'm saying he was going to give them a health care plan that was impossible to live with. It's not a question of what he will do though, because he lost.

Republicans elected a leader for the last eight years. You can't deny that some of those children's deaths were because George Bush didn't do a thing to stop if. You have absolutely no proof that McCain would try to stop it either. You're assuming.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:34 AM


TS.

I need some intellectual stimulation, and not educating the party hacks of socialism and demand economies flunkies.

They will pay a high economic price for their demand for murderering their own children.


TS, what is the Trinity, and what is it made up of?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:40 AM


Josephine,

I'm sorry, I can't seem to rationalize with you. You just brushed off 48,000,000 dead unborn children by abortion. Look at Obama's extreme abortion recored at the right-hand side of the screen.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:40 AM


You're brushing off the fact that George Bush hasn't stopped abortion. He has barely made a step in that direction! Have abortion numbers even gone down during his presidency? What has you so convinced McCain would? I live in Illinois. I know all about Obama.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:44 AM


yllas,
The Trinnity is the Father, the Son, amd the Holy Spirit. If you want more detail I suggest you read about it in the Catholic Catechism. Unless of course you have a specific direct question that I could try and answer from a personal perspective.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:46 AM


Josephine,

President Bush has put many pro-life policies and abortion restrictions in place. Obama would overturn them all.

To make abortion illegal though, you need to overturn Roe, which can only happen with 1 or 2 more conservative justices to the SJC.

You just voted for guy who will appoint justices that will preserve Roe (Obama said it himself).

Do you think abortion should be illegal?

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:50 AM


Either God is in control all the time or we're just spinning around in the absence of direct control of God.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 5, 2008 1:34 AM

Another diminished mind trying to think about God.

Turning away from God would not be a defect except in a nature meant to be with God. Even an evil will then is proof of the goodness of nature. Just as God is the supremely good creator of good natures, so he is the most just ruler of evil wills, so that even though evil wills make an evil use of good natures, God makes a good use of evil wills.

And so the pro child killing Obama serves his purpose as that evil will that makes a evil use of the good natures of God.

Tell me YLT, is the wife of the godman named O, going to attend the funeral of her husband's mentor and the " one who raised him"?

What excuse is coming YTL? What defense of being a lout are you going to defend when she finds another matter more important then the burial of his grandmother?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:53 AM


You're brushing off the fact that George Bush hasn't stopped abortion. He has barely made a step in that direction! Have abortion numbers even gone down during his presidency? What has you so convinced McCain would? I live in Illinois. I know all about Obama.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:44 AM

Josephine,
George Bush nominated Supreme Court justices that were able to ban partial birth abortion. Do you know what PBA is? Barack and Michelle Obama held fund-raisers to try and keep it legal. Thanks to Bush it is now illegal. If Obama has his way, he has already stated that he will only appoint nominees to the Supreme Court who support abortion. These are very substantial things. Also, from a personal perspective, under Bush no federal funds could be used to pay for abortion. Now that you elected Obama he will likely pass laws that direct federal funds to be used to pay for abortions. That would mean the work of the hands of every American would be tainted with the blood of murdered babies. Can you even begin to understand what that means from my perspective? From the perspective of a man who believes that the unborn are deserving of the same rights as any other person?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 1:55 AM


I think abortion should be legal. You do know though, that the President has to have his justices approved, correct? I didn't vote democrat straight ticket. I voted for a democrat president. I voted for a republic senator and representative. Now, don't get me wrong: my vote was basically wasted.. Dick Durbin will always have Illinois. So, even though I voted for a pro-choice president. I voted for congressmen who, if chosen to be on the committee, would not approve pro-choice justices. It's all about checks and balances.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:55 AM


Why TS,

Why must there be three person's in a God?

How are we a image of God, or a imitation of the Trinity? What is within us, that makes us a image of the three person's.


Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:58 AM


If you believe life begins at conception, then why is having a partial birth abortion worse than another? Honestly.

By the way-- maybe, instead of criticizing the government on an internet site you should go out and talk to the people who are considering abortion. People having abortions is not entirely
the president's fault.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:00 AM


It's all about checks and balances.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:55 AM

Josephine,
The Dems already have both houses of congress locked up, and with the presidency and a fillibuster proof majority you may have just given the pro-aborts unchecked power. If you truly believe it is important to have checks and balances then you had to vote McCain!

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:01 AM


If you believe life begins at conception, then why is having a partial birth abortion worse than another? Honestly.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:00 AM

According to the decision made by the Supreme Court when they banned it, the difference was that PBA is too close to infanticide.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:05 AM


Uhm, being as I voted republican for my senator and rep... *I* didn't give full power to anyone. I used have my vote for congress, and the other have for the President I wanted. My choices balance eachother out, and it's not on my conscious that's not how it worked out. If I voted for McCain.. I'd be voting for an idiot and I could never live with myself. I chose not to ruin the future of the country.

I never got an answer as to why partial birth abortions were worse than others.. if all life is equal and life beings at conception?

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:07 AM


By the way-- maybe, instead of criticizing the government on an internet site you should go out and talk to the people who are considering abortion. People having abortions is not entirely the president's fault.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:00 AM

Josephine,
I do go out and talk to people about it. And the fault is equal to the complicity and or support that the president gives to the abortion industry. Your vote was a vote for Planned Parenthood getting huge increases in public monies to set up abortuaries throughout the US, so you are responsible to wether you want to admit it or not.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:09 AM


Dick Durbin will always have Illinois
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:55 AM

Written as all party hacks believe, and find nothing wrong in a person such as Castro to Hitler and thier being "always in those nations".

Liberals; always backing the lifetime thugs, who have taken their mind away to some far away world, where liberty is always held by the lifetime thug of liberty.

Long live the King Durbin. Heil unto the torch of lifetime power.

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 2:10 AM


"Uhm, being as I voted republican for my senator and rep... *I* didn't give full power to anyone. "

Josephine, Anybody could have told you that the Dem's were going to increase their control of Congress, so your vote for Obama was vote for total Democratic control; which should have been obvious to any educated voter.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:13 AM


I wish you'd read what I said: I didn't vote for Dick Durbin. It just so happens that Illinois is notoriously owned by democrats. I, in no way, would compare Dick Durbin to Hitler. That's going pretty far. Not supporting McCain and supporting Obama doesn't make me a democrat. Like I said earlier, I voted for Ron Paul in the primaries. After Ron Paul was out, I thought Obama was the best option for the country, and I do really like him.

Why does everyone avoid my question... ? I'll ask a third time: if all life is equal, and all abortion is murder.. why is partial birth worse than any other kind? If they're all murder in your eyes.. ?

Personally, I don't think partial birth abortion is worse in any way. It's all murder and it's all wrong.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:16 AM


"Why does everyone avoid my question... ? I'll ask a third time: if all life is equal, and all abortion is murder.. why is partial birth worse than any other kind? If they're all murder in your eyes.. ?"

Josephine,
I aAlready answered that at November 5, 2008 2:05 AM

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:18 AM


You decide your vote then, on what other people say? I voted for what I wanted. I wanted Obama as president, NOT McCain. Plus, the committee that okays Supreme Court Justices is made up of Republicans and Democrats. So, if a justice gets elected that is pro-choice.. well, that's just as much fault of the Republican members of that committee. There is no denying that.

I'm going to guess that being in a U of I political science class probably makes me more educated then most voters. (Not in general, but for this particular election.. since I've been studying it non stop for a very long time.)

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:18 AM


From your understanding of the Trinity, TS.


How does a man and women, who have a child, a parable of the Trinity? Or is it a parable?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 2:19 AM


I never got an answer as to why partial birth abortions were worse than others.. if all life is equal and life beings at conception?
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:07 AM

All elective abortion is evil.

Apparently you don't really understand abortion, because you believe that checks and balances holds the key to somehow dampening it.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 5, 2008 2:23 AM


I'm asking why YOU feel it's worse. I mean,... if you believe all abortion is murder, why do you keep bringing up partial birth? Saying one form of abortion is worse... well, to me, it's like saying.. "it's bad to get shot with a rifle, but I wouldn't mind getting shot with a pistol".

I'm not smarting off. I honestly don't why anyone is acting like it's worse than any other type?

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:23 AM


Personally, I don't think partial birth abortion is worse in any way. It's all murder and it's all wrong.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:16 AM

Wow.... until that I thought you were a caring person. So you wouldn;t be bithered any more is all the 50 million babies killed since RoeVWade were viable babies killed by PBA? So delivering a baby to the shoulders and sliding a scissors up the baby's spine to the bottom of the skull and stabbing her in the head with a scissors is o.k. with you? You lost me here Josephine. You are one of te most radical pro-aborts I know and you claim that you are against abortion. You sound like Obama. Do you call yourself a Christian too?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:26 AM


Certain bipartisan congressmen have to approve the President's choice for justice. There is no more understand it than that. So, if the republicans on that committee say heck no to pro-choice justices, then good for them. If they okay pro-choice justices, then.. well, I'm against that and I don't support it. So, checks and balances has a key in dampening abortion just as much as the president has a roll in promoting abortion.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:29 AM


From your understanding of the Trinity, TS.

How does a man and women, who have a child, a parable of the Trinity? Or is it a parable?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 2:19 AM

The Trinity is three persons in one.
And parents join together as one to make a third.

Also, The Holy Spirit is present in both the Trinity and in the creation of the new life of the child.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:33 AM


WHY is one form of murder worse than another? If you think that, then YOU'RE not against all abortion. I don't think partial birth is worse, because they're ALL awful. Every form of abortion is killing a BABY. I don't really care how it's done, because it's all wrong. I guess you feel differently, and that's disgusting to me.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:34 AM


So, checks and balances has a key in dampening abortion just as much as the president has a roll in promoting abortion.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:29 AM

Josephine, you are ignoring my post about how the president makes a huge difference in the funding given to the abortion industry. Being from Illinois you must realize how closely Obama's political life has been tied to Planned Parenthood/ the abortion industry.
Bush = no federal funding of abortion
Obama= abortion industry funding bonanza.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:38 AM


WHY is one form of murder worse than another? If you think that, then YOU'RE not against all abortion. I don't think partial birth is worse, because they're ALL awful. Every form of abortion is killing a BABY. I don't really care how it's done, because it's all wrong. I guess you feel differently, and that's disgusting to me.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:34 AM

Seriously Josephine. You are saying you think abortion is murder but you vote to continue the greatest genocide in the history of mankind... You aren;t for real. You have got to be an Obama hack.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:42 AM


So, you think Obama shouldn't fund planned parenthood? You do realize that would result in MORE pregnancies... and probably more abortions, because I know a heck of a lot of girls that would NOT have babies. No matter what. I mean, with only $5000 for healthcare, how would women who aren't well off afford birth control?

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:44 AM


The Lord works in mysterious ways. I believe that the Obama presidency will energize the pro-life base like never before and focus so much public attention the scourge of abortion.
Jill, I will fight with you!!!! Thanks be to God for our fearless leader Jill!

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:47 AM


So, you think Obama shouldn't fund planned parenthood? You do realize that would result in MORE pregnancies... and probably more abortions, because I know a heck of a lot of girls that would NOT have babies. No matter what. I mean, with only $5000 for healthcare, how would women who aren't well off afford birth control?

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:44

Josephine, You say you believe all abortion is murder and yet you don't think stopping the murder/genocide is the most important issue to vote. Please explain how you reconcile that position before we go any further because I can't understand how a person could think health care for the elderly or birth control are more important issues then stopping genocide.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:52 AM


For the love of God Josephine. You are saying that you voted for a president who by your own admission supports a persons right to choose murder and wants to fund said expression by building genocide factories throughout our country.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:56 AM


So TS.

Can love exist alone, in truth, TS?

How does that relate to the Trinity if it does apply to the Trinity?

When a person kills their creation, are they not making a decision to live alone?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 2:57 AM


Yes.

Love is contained in each member of the Trinity.

Persons do not create, they are allowed to share in God's creation.

Goodnight yllas. I am hitting the hay.


Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 3:08 AM


Well Ts.

I find that the Trinity is a parable of a person.

In order for love to exist, you have to have someone who loves, and someone who is loved, and the love between them.

The Father is the one who loves, the Son is the one who is loved, and the Holy Spirit is the love between them. The Trinity is an eternal union of love between these three divine Persons.

Any so Called Christian who preaches that other matters are more important then murdering love(abortion murders love) are worshipping a God that exist alone. The love returns to itself alone, and with nothing but a thought and action that murdered Creation.

Or as Augustine and Thomas wrote;


"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Now, God is pure spirit, so a word produced by God wouldn't be a spoken word, it would be more like a thought or an idea. So what idea produced in God's mind could possibly be God? The answer is the idea that God has of himself. When God thinks of himself, this thought must be perfect, because God is perfect, so whatever is in God the Father must be in this idea of himself, and must be exactly the same as it is in himself. Otherwise God would have an inadequate idea of himself, which wouldn't be possible for a perfect God.

Now, the Father knows and loves, so his idea or concept of himself knows and loves. In other words, the idea is a person. The thinker and the thought are distinct, but they are of the same nature. The idea, or word, of God, is the Son. And God has always been thinking, so he has always been Fathering the eternal Son.

And then, between the two infinite persons of the Father and the Son, there is an infinite love. They love each other with everything they have, so their love is like them: infinite, eternal, living, a Person, God. Their love produces an eternal person as well, the Holy Spirit.

That a time of evil wills using the good natures of God has become politically correct amongst politicians and Christians is where Christ began his journey 2000 years ago.

What to make of such irony?

Well Solzhenitsyn wrote;

Solzhenitsyn reserved his harshest condemnation for his own, particularly the Soviet leadership, and could not forgive what he saw as passivity in so many Russians during the long terror. The political problem was, again for the author, not so much a matter of sorting out competing political systems, but a question of evil.

In a chapter of the Gulag Archipelago that looks at the history of the Soviet political police, one of the interrogators tells a condemned man: “Interrogation and trial are merely judicial corroboration. They cannot alter your fate, which was previously decided. If it is necessary to shoot you, then you will be shot even if you are altogether innocent. If it is necessary to acquit you, then no matter how guilty you are you will be cleared and acquitted.”


. The chapter closes with the narrator discussing the just punishment for evildoers. He talks about the vigorous prosecution of Nazi war criminals in West Germany—by one count some 86,000 convicted by 1966. And he compares that with the almost total lack of any justice served for the architects of Soviet terror: “Someday our descendents will describe our several generations as generations of driveling do-nothings. First we submissively allowed them to massacre us by the millions, and then with devoted concern we tended the murderers in their prosperous old age.”

But for those descendents to come to conclusions about “driveling do-nothings” they will first need moral criteria. And that is what worries Solzhenitsyn. In a 1993 address in New York, shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the author observed that “for a post-modernist, the world does not possess values that have reality.” Perhaps it is the moral reality provided by true faith that most threatens revolutionaries and totalitarians, and explains why the Church, which stands in the way of these utopian fantasies, receives so much of their fury.

Russian historian George Vernadsky estimated that between the years 1917-1920 “several hundred bishops, priests, and monks were either shot or starved to death in prisons.” In 1922, the Soviets confiscated religious art and liturgical items, citing the need to raise funds to combat a famine, and in the process, Vernadsky wrote, “many priests were arrested and a number executed, among them the bishop of Petrograd, Benjamin.” To this day, the Russian Orthodox Church holds an annual memorial service in Butovo, the location of a former secret police camp now known as Russia’s Golgotha. No one knows exactly how many died at the “shooting field” in 1937-38, although the official number tops 20,000 people. Among them were more than 1,000 clergymen, including seven bishops. Witnesses said "enemies of the people" were brought to the shooting range in food vans marked "MEAT." Shootings went on non-stop day and night in the later stages.

The Russian exile theologian Vladimir Lossky defined evil as “nothing other than an attraction of the will towards nothing, a negation of being, of creation, and above all of God, a furious hatred of grace against which the rebellious will puts up an implacable resistance.”

Well TS, your discusing with people who "the world does not possess values that have reality.” Your battling a furious negation of being and their attraction to that nothingness, which is abortion.

And you recive much of their eutopian fury. Good cheers TS, your doing a good job battling their furious negation of life.

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 4:10 AM


Well this gives my day a little boost. Maybe Obama's health care plan will pay for my crown (yeah that's 1400 bucks).

Well this gives my day a little boost! Maybe Obama can take more money from people who actually take the time to work for it, then give that money to me, so that I can pay for something that I am well capable of earning the money to pay for myself.

Posted by: Bethany at November 5, 2008 6:19 AM


The Lord works in mysterious ways. I believe that the Obama presidency will energize the pro-life base like never before and focus so much public attention the scourge of abortion.
Jill, I will fight with you!!!! Thanks be to God for our fearless leader Jill!
Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 2:47 AM

I think you are right, Truthseeker. Thank you for the encouragement this morning!

Posted by: Bethany at November 5, 2008 6:30 AM


this is your hour, and the power of darkness (Luke 22,53)
                and yet
the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16,18)
...they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
(Revelation 6,10-11)

God's kingdom has its times but we know Jesus Christ has already won sin and death.
Blessed be Jesus Christ!

Giovanni

Posted by: agapetos at November 5, 2008 7:53 AM


Sorry for snapping, PIP.

Posted by: Bethany at November 5, 2008 8:08 AM


It's okay Bethany. It was meant as a half-joke. Obviously his health care plan will not pay for my crown, because I'm having it done next week :)

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 5, 2008 8:59 AM


Josephine, 86 Whiskey, now I see why you really voted Obama. Your could care less about abortion or anybody's hide but your own and were in the military for selfish reasons and now you think you won't have to serve as many tours if Obama is your Commander in Chief. Thank Go for our great country that most of our military personnel put country first.

And for now I will take back my assertion that 90% of all military backed McCain and look for more data. I am not sure what poll said that at election time 90% of the military backed McCain over Obama (I think it may have been officers), but here is a gallup poll from August of 2008 that shows the military personnel back McCain not Obama.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109654/Veterans-Solidly-Back-McCain.aspx

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 9:10 AM


"I think abortion should be legal."

Ok Josephine, I misunderstood you, I though you said you were pro-life. My mistake.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 9:20 AM


To be honest Josephine I'm going to agree that you are not pro-life if you wish abortion should be legal. It has nothing to do with the vote for Obama since many pro-lifers disagree on the path to making abortion illegal, but generally that is the overall goal (since you are killing a human being). Actively wanting to keep it legal, unless I misunderstand you, is a pro-choice position. Thinking it is a moral evil and wanting to keep it legal, is a moderate to conservative pro-choice position but I would call it a pro-choice position regardless, because you want to keep that 'choice' available, right?

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 5, 2008 9:30 AM


Jo Jo,

McCain supported a $5000 tax credit, not a $5000 check for healthcare from the government. People could buy their own insurance and recoup the cost of the insurance in the way of a tax credit. I'm not sure if you are understanding the difference.

A life is a life no matter the age of the unborn baby. You are correct that killing by abortion is murder and is wrong at any point in the pregnancy. Pro-lifers do not disagree on that issue.

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 9:48 AM


Jo Jo,
You are in a political science class at U of I so you think you know more than most of us? Do you think we are all in high school? YIKES. You need an attitude adjustment, dear.

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 9:53 AM


How many other voices for the unborn did we lose in congress and/or the Senate? I mean besides Melissa Hart? I think we lost Marilyn Musgrove as well. I was very upset when I was watching the results last night on ABC and saw that we may have lost her. And Melissa Hart - she lost her seat 2 years ago to a man who claimed to have pro life views, but actually DID NOT.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 5, 2008 10:22 AM


I don't think you're in high school. If you think though, that watching some news shows and reading some articles makes you more educated on the subject then I think you're wrong. It's nothing to argue over. I had to discuss and study this election and the candidates in depth since the beginning of summer. I wrote graded papers and took tests over this election.

I don't think the country should have any say if abortion is legal or illegal. WHY do you think you should rely on the government instead of stopping people? It's been 35 years people-- democrats and republicans have both held office and changed NOTHING. If I were pregnant I would just as easily be able to abort my baby today as I would on January 21st! I don't know where anyone gets off saying that McCain could get the support to overturn roe.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:09 PM


Me thinks you need to read about the Branches of the Government, Josephine. Cause a President appoints Justices. Right now its 5-4 in favor of KEEPING R vs W. With a president that's "anti abortion" like McCain, if a Justice would retire in the next 4 year, he or she in the case of Ruth Ginsburg, would get replaced by a new Justice.

Congress can pass laws that can restrict abortions or help the unborn in certain circumstances, like the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. They can't just override R vs. W. Only the Supreme Court can do that. And now with Obama, those who are opposed to abortion are devastated because there will be little chance to overturn R vs. W. now.


And also, Slavery was once the 'law of the land' and blacks were considered only 3/5 human!

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 5, 2008 12:38 PM


CAN NO ONE READ?? HOLY CRAP DUDES.

While it's true the Justices get picked by the President.. they have to be APPROVED by a BIpartisan committee. Republicans AND Democrats.

It seems as though it's you who need to check into your branches of the government. If none of you understand that, that's too bad because McCain lost. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 12:55 PM


"While it's true the Justices get picked by the President.. they have to be APPROVED by a BIpartisan committee."

JoJo, we know that. Obama though will not pick a anti-Roe justice. It doesn't matter though, I realize where you are coming from, you don't think abortion should be illegal.

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 1:41 PM


First of all, please don't call me JoJo. That's not meant to sound rude, I just really hate that name.

LizFromNebraska made it sound pretty clear it's all up to the President and no one else. If pro-choice justices gets through, it's because the Republican members of the committee didn't fight hard enough and that's no one's fault except their own.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 1:51 PM


I don't think the country should have any say if abortion is legal or illegal.

Those are the only choices we have. :)

Why do you say nothing has changed in the law since 1973?
That is not true at all.

Some day you'll realize that writing papers and taking tests don't make one smart.

Have you taken the History of Abortion and the Pro-life Movement, yet?

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 2:04 PM


I didn't say it made me SMART. I said I probably know more about this election then people that read the newspaper or watch YouTube videos..(or worse, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly. Gag.) There is a difference.

Even if some of the logistics have changed, it doesn't matter. Abortion is legal. More and more people are pro-choice than pro-life. Even red states voted against pro-life movements. How can you not see the writing on the wall? McCain never would have equaled no abortions. Obama is never going to make Wal-Mart sell home abortion kits! You can say McCain would've changed things, but GUESS WHAT... just as many babies were aborted during W's presidency!

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:16 PM


"Obama is never going to make Wal-Mart sell home abortion kits!"

Really?

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 2:36 PM


He sure isn't. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:38 PM


I didn't say it made me SMART.

Then you are saying you are not smart?

You are not addressing the questions here, just telling us how much we don't know. It's not all that much fun, you know?

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 2:39 PM


Why do you make sarcastic remarks followed by a smiley face?

Posted by: Janet at November 5, 2008 2:40 PM


Planned Parenthood bullied Wal-Mart into breaking down and selling Plan B over the counter. They put pressure on states to force Pharmacists to go against their conscience and fill Prescriptions for abortifacent birth control.

They also get 300 Million+ tax dollars of American Tax payers money.


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 5, 2008 2:46 PM


Plan B, if taken the morning after, is NOT abortion. It can take DAYS for sperm to reach and fertilize an egg. Plan B is only abortion if you consider masturbation abortion. I mean, you surely realize that a woman doesn't get pregnant the moment after sex?

I didn't say I wasn't smart. I just said it wasn't my Polisci class that made me smart. I'm smart because of all my schooling and my parents, sweetie. I also make sarcastic comments with smilies because I feel it adds to the sarcasm, lest someone be confused.

If planned parenthood were ever to lose funding, you do realize that would result in MORE abortions, right? That would be, although indirectly, your fault. So... I guess, if you hates babies, please keep complaining about an organization that gives away free/cheap birth control to keep the number of pregnancies at a minimum. If there's one thing you seem to ignore about Obama, it's that he wants less pregnancies where women feel they need to abort.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:56 PM


Jo,

how come with 40 years of birth control, abortion went up drastically? and abortion rates are still very high? still over 1.2 million abortions per year.

Should we drop condoms from the sky?

Posted by: Jasper at November 5, 2008 3:56 PM


"Joanne, just read FOCA. The mischaracterizations that we've seen here are easy to spot."

It's you who needs to read it. NObama totally supports NO restrictions on abortion whatsoever.

Somebody who is less-than-truthful may have told you that, but it's incorrect.

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:04 PM


Truthseeker: they are laying off due to the changes coming in the tax code which will actually make it more profitable for a business owner who makes less and pays fewer people.

TS, if this is really the case, then it would depend on a substantial "bracketing" would it not, with making under a certain figure resulting in a meaningful reduction in taxes?

Not saying it's impossible, but we have graduated taxes, don't we?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/165514

There's an article about "A conservative group misleads voters mightily on Obama's tax plans for small businesses."

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:12 PM


yllas: Doug is a fascist toddy, who takes by fascism from the poor, and gives to himself a trip to foreign lands where he spends his fascist booty on non-Americans.

Don't you mean a hot toddy? Or how about some mulled wine?

I'd walk in and say, "Mulled wine, my good woman, easy on the cinnamon, heavy on the cloves."

You're the facist, not me. I've worked for over 30 years now, paying taxes all along, while you sit and stew in your own bitterness and petty hatred.

I paid cash for my first house, and listen to you whine....hilarious.

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:16 PM


Well Doug, what do you see FOCA doing? What's the point of it? What would it change? It must change something, right?

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 5, 2008 4:19 PM


Sorry, it "sounds" like I'm being ornery above, but I'm legitimately wondering what the "other side" sees FOCA doing.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 5, 2008 4:25 PM


Bobby, I like you, ornery or no.

I see FOCA as negating what some people in some states, like South Dakota, are trying to do - deny elective abortions to people before viability.

I understand people objecting to the Roe decision, and FWIW I think that getting Roe overturned is by far the best approach for Pro-Lifers to take.

But while Roe is in effect, why waste time, money, etc., by coming up with unconstitutional laws? FOCA would prevent a good bit of that.

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 5:59 PM


and blacks were considered only 3/5 human!

Liz, that's not really it.

For census purposes black slaves (and slaves of any color, in fact) were considered 3/5 of a person pursuant to divvying out tax money and deciding how many Representatives a state should have. It wasn't saying "only this much human" about anything.

There is still language in the Constitution to this day that reflects this:

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States
which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers,
which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons,
including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not
taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 6:06 PM


Josephine

You are defending an organization that disguises themselves as a "Health organization" but in reality, they are a RACIST organization that deliberately targets poor minority women.

When you said minimize pregnancies, you act like pregnancy is some sort of a disease.


And Jasper makes a point about birth control. 1.2 MILLION abortions a year. And Black women are 3 times more likely to abort than a white woman. First they are drawn in by "low cost exams" then they are put on the pill and then they get abortions.

PP's founder was a racist eugenicist who infamously said "we don't want it to get out that we want to eliminate the negro race" and "The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." and "Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock."

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 5, 2008 7:22 PM


You are defending an organization that disguises themselves as a "Health organization" but in reality, they are a RACIST organization that deliberately targets poor minority women.

Oh come on, Liz.

A woman, minority or not, poor or not, has an unwanted pregnancy. She goes to PP (or another clinic, hospital, etc.) for an abortion. Is she going to be worried about what you say?

PP does provide many health services to women. And is the pregnant woman, even if she's in a minority, not going to have an abortion because "other minority women" are having abortions? Of couse not.

Black women have more unwanted pregnancies; only makes sense they'll have more abortions.

Do you not think that lower cost exams would be favored by many people over higher cost exams?

Do you not think that taking birth control pills is preferable to many people, versus having an abortion?

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 9:11 PM


There's an article about "A conservative group misleads voters mightily on Obama's tax plans for small businesses."

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:12 PM

Doug,
I heard today that the Agents for the MLB players are getting contracts rewriten with signing bonuses this year instead of salaries next year because it adds like 400,000 to their pay. According to Biden that is unpatriotic, what do you think?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 10:03 PM


Abortion is legal. More and more people are pro-choice than pro-life.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 2:16 PM

Maybe in your fairyland Josephine. But in truth, more and more people are becoming aware of the barbarity of abortion every day. With Obama as president, there will be an even greater light shining on the evil of abortion because we will have a sitting president with such radical views that even lack respect for born alive infants or partially born alive infants that are stabbed in the head with a scissors. I know you said you don't see any difference between a first month abortion or a PBA at 6 months but MOST people do and support for your agenda is on the decline. Time is definitely on the pro-life side because the more you show yourselves, the easier it is for people to see the harm you cause to mother's and their babies and our society and civilization as a whole when institutionalize the murder our unborn children. Not in America Josephine, and definitely not on my watch. My neighbor across the street has an Obam sign in their yard and I have a sign that says Planned Parenthood Kills Babies in mine along with white memorial crosses.
You won;t be abl to hide your evil, not even from your own children much longer because we are going to call you out.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 10:55 PM


"When you said minimize pregnancies, you act like pregnancy is some sort of a disease.

And Jasper makes a point about birth control. 1.2 MILLION abortions a year. And Black women are 3 times more likely to abort than a white woman. First they are drawn in by "low cost exams" then they are put on the pill and then they get abortions."

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 5, 2008 7:22 PM

Uhm. First of all... if someone doesn't want to get pregnant, that's what it's like: a disease. Just like you'd get a vaccination so you didn't get the flu, women use birth control so they don't get pregnant. I mean... that's common sense?

There are more abortions because a.) more people are having sex b.) the stupid ones aren't using protection

There is always the occasional woman that gets pregnant who used protection, and my heart goes out to those women. However, you can't deny that younger and younger people are sexually active. That means more and more chances for unwanted pregnancies. So, while planned parenthood does give abortion, they'd prefer for women to just have protected sex. If you stop funding for planned parenthood.. sure, it stops funding for abortion. It also stops funding for people getting birthcontrol who need it. Also, planned parenthood does "lady" exams and breast exams. There are some people who can't afford things like that... I think it's crazy to take those things away from people.

Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 11:06 PM


There is always the occasional woman that gets pregnant who used protection, and my heart goes out to those women. However, you can't deny that younger and younger people are sexually active.
Posted by: Josephine at November 5, 2008 11:06 PM

Josephine, over 50% of abortions are commited on women who were using BC. That means over 25 million since RoeVWade. You call that the "occasional woman"? And my heart goes out to them too but that doesn't mean they have a right to kill their children just because they don't wnat them and didn;t intend to have them. That sets up a precedence for government or dead-beat dads or anybody else to penalize for choosing to keep your baby.

And we are not animals. We don't have to have sex and we shouldn't have sex if we are going to kill our offspring. That makes a country without respect for life and a country that has no business calling itself a beacon for human rights in the world. Tell me, how is Ireland doing since they outlawed abortion. I here they are thriving as a country and getting plenty of foreign businesses etc.. And the MAIN reason young people are having sex today is because they have deadbeat parents who think it is easier to just put them o birth control and hope for the best instead of teaching them that there are REAL consequences that you can't just abort away. I pity the children of parents who don't teach them that are capable of self-control and that there are real consequences and responsibilities and reasons that they should NOT be having sex. I take my kids to pray outside the abortuaries so they see first hand the number of orresponsible women who go in and out of those House of Horrors known as the neighborhood Planned Parenthood abortuary.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 11:53 PM


And I don;t know any actual numbers on this but I would guess you'd find that the pro-choice legistation that gets defeated is defeated mostly by the votes of dead-beat men who want sex without responsibility. Not so much the women who actually mostly value the lives of their unborn children.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 11:56 PM


And I think it's crazy for to dispense birth control with the promise of "safe" sex. It is that kind of misinformation that gets most of these women with "unwanted" children in trouble.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 6, 2008 12:00 AM


More women are pro-choice then men.

And, about you saying " And my heart goes out to them too but that doesn't mean they have a right to kill their children" I didn't mean "my heart went out to the ones who had abortions" I meant what I said: My heart goes out to ALL the people that get pregnant even though they're taking measures to stop that. I only mentioned that because I didn't want to offend anyone on here that had gotten pregnant on bc.. I knew I'd get yelled at if I forgot to mention that.

Buuut, I don't believe 50% of those women were on birthcontrol. I simply don't believe it, and I'm sorry. I mean, I don't believe you're lying at all. I believe that you read that or saw it in a survey. But I think women lie about being on bc to justify abortion. So, if asked they can say "well, I was on bc.. so it's not my fault." That probably makes me sound like a b-word, but I don't think very highly of women that are willing to have abortions anyway.

Posted by: Josephine at November 6, 2008 12:13 AM


Josephine,
Where did you read "More women are pro-choice then men. " I would like to see the study.

BTW, my staistic about the percentage of abortion commited on women who were on birth controil coame from a UNICEF study.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 6, 2008 12:45 AM


Unless they tested the women's PEE (or blood? I guess I'll have to ask my dad next time I talk to him)... then I just don't believe it. Like I said, I believe you read that..I don't think you made it up. I just believe women lied. I guess if you show me where it says they tested the women's pee(or blood?) then I would trust that survey. I just think it's inaccurate. And, it's easy to misuse bc.. especially the pills.

Anyway, I heard that more women are pro-choice than men in my political science class when we were talking about voting demographics. I'll get a site (it'll probably be a school one) tomorrow when I have class.

Posted by: Josephine at November 6, 2008 1:30 AM


Yes, I have some experience with talking to women dealing with unplanned pregnancies -- personal, not professional experience -- and almost all of them swear up and down in the beginning that they were using birth control. After they get accustomed to the idea and some of their sense of shame diminishes they often admit that they were using it incorrectly, infrequently, or not at all.

One thing birth control has done is make pregnancy preventable enough that failure to do so makes a woman feel open to accusations of laziness and stupidity (they have, in some ways, usurped the accusations of sluttiness that were previously a source of shame -- women are not ashamed of the sex, but the carelessness). So many women are ashamed to admit that they were not conscientious and careful, and instead just say, "I was using birth control, it must have failed."

Posted by: Alexandra at November 6, 2008 8:16 AM


I heard today that the Agents for the MLB players are getting contracts rewriten with signing bonuses this year instead of salaries next year because it adds like 400,000 to their pay. According to Biden that is unpatriotic, what do you think?

Holy Cow, Truthseeker - where do you get that?

Posted by: Doug at November 6, 2008 10:43 AM


Doug, I heard that too. Maybe on the radio. Sign of the times and we have you all to thank for it. It's only the beginning.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 2:39 PM


Josephine, over 50% of abortions are commited on women who were using BC. That means over 25 million since RoeVWade. You call that the "occasional woman"? And my heart goes out to them too but that doesn't mean they have a right to kill their children just because they don't wnat them and didn;t intend to have them. That sets up a precedence for government or dead-beat dads or anybody else to penalize for choosing to keep your baby.

This statistic bears repeating. Learning Natural Family Planning would be one way to reduce the number of abortions due to failed birth control. But the Abortion industry is ignorant of NFP and would be hurt monetarily if women received this information - therefore they don't teach it. NFP is considered a silly "Catholic"(*GASP*), rhythm-method of BC.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 2:46 PM


Tell me YLT, is the wife of the godman named O, going to attend the funeral of her husband's mentor and the " one who raised him"?

What excuse is coming YTL? What defense of being a lout are you going to defend when she finds another matter more important then the burial of his grandmother?

Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:53 AM

Huh? This makes no sense.

Posted by: Yo la Tengo at November 6, 2008 9:38 PM


Correction:
And I don't know any actual numbers on this but I would guess you'd find that the pro-LIFE legistation that gets defeated is defeated mostly by the votes of dead-beat men who want sex without responsibility. Not so much the women who actually mostly value the lives of their unborn children.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 5, 2008 11:56 PM

Posted by: ts at November 6, 2008 10:33 PM


Josephine, you may be shocked. More men are pro-choice then women. Here are the poll results by gender. The first % is generally available, the 2nd % is available but with stricter restrictions, and the 3rd % is not permitted:

Overall 39% 38% 22%
Women 37% 37% 24%
Men 40% 40% 20%

Now you know, there are more anti-life men then women in the US.There are a lot of other interesting statistics by various demographics at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States

Posted by: truthseeker at November 6, 2008 11:04 PM


Jill and truthseeker,

I checked out the wikipedia/abortion site that truthseeker noted. Under the heading "Pro-life Organizations", the only group listed is Operation Rescue. Someone needs to update that entry quickly!!

Posted by: Janet at November 7, 2008 2:55 PM


Janet,

Anyone can update almost anything on Wiki. That's what makes it so... usually trustworthy, but sometimes not. You could do it :)

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 7, 2008 3:03 PM


Why would anybody doubt that there are more anti-life men than women?

Posted by: truthseeker at November 7, 2008 7:50 PM


I heard today that the Agents for the MLB players are getting contracts rewriten with signing bonuses this year instead of salaries next year because it adds like 400,000 to their pay. According to Biden that is unpatriotic, what do you think?

"Holy Cow, Truthseeker - where do you get that?"

Janet: Doug, I heard that too. Maybe on the radio. Sign of the times and we have you all to thank for it. It's only the beginning.

It must have something to do, supposedly, at least, with something Biden said. I'm just wondering what it was.

Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 9:56 PM


More men are pro-choice then women.

Truthseeker, not necessarily. Interesting link from 2004:

http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=88

Women on both sides of the argument apparently feel stronger about it than men do, in general.

Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 10:08 PM


There are also polls that show more women are Pro-Choice than men. From Pew Research, August 2008:

More women thought that abortion should be legal in all cases.

The number of women thinking that abortion should be legal in all or most cases was 54%, versus 53% of men. Quite close, overall.

Looking at it from a "paternal" viewpoint, it may be a little easier for men to go with restricting the rights of the other sex, rather than their own.

Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 10:26 PM


Posted by: yllas at November 5, 2008 1:53 AM

Huh? This makes no sense.
Posted by: Yo la Tengo at November 6, 2008 9:38 PM

____

99% of yllas's posts are nonsense. You've probably seen that for yourself.

Posted by: Mary at November 7, 2008 11:50 PM


Doug, Interesting poll data, thanks for finding it. I notice that more women felt it should be illegal in all cases too.

Posted by: truthseeker at November 8, 2008 12:24 AM


It must have something to do, supposedly, at least, with something Biden said. I'm just wondering what it was.
Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 9:56 PM

Doug, It was the day before Obama told Joe the Plumber we need to spread the wealth. Biden was giving a stump speech and he said it is time for the wealthy to show they are patriotic by paying more taxes. lol holy smokes

Posted by: truthseeker at November 8, 2008 12:28 AM


Thanks, TS. I think that saying that's "patgriotic" is a stretch, certainly.

That said, I imagine that Obama proposes no huge tax increases but rather something like the rates which were in effect under Clinton...?

Posted by: Doug at November 8, 2008 6:39 PM