I spent the last week in DC, so my ability to blog was spotty. Just got home and am happy be relieved of the angst over posts I've been missing. I had a great time, mixing pro-life business with friend/family pleasure; I was just torn.
A high point came yesterday when I was able to touch the sacrophagus of George Washington in his tomb when we visited Mt. Vernon. There are 2 wreathing ceremonies every day, and I volunteered at 1 to help place the wreath inside the tomb.
A short walk away lay several hundred unmarked graves of many of Washington's slaves. Although in his will he gave them their freedom upon Martha's death, and indeed the bulk of his will dealt with that and their care after emancipation, the fact is this great man enslaved people while fighting for our freedom, an almost inexplicable contraction unless one considers the culture of that time....
Of course, the analogy to slavery and abortion are great, except abortion always kills.
Future generations will consider it equally inexplicable that today's abortion proponents are most often as vehemently anti-animal cruelty and anti-death penalty as they are pro-abortion. They can also anticipate that whatever good they think they are doing in the world will be shadowed in history by their abortion advocacy.
[Photo courtesy of About.com]
The Bible never said anything against slavery, it actually is quiet pro-slavery. Christians used their religion to ok slavery, segregation, discrimination. I know this is going to make a lot of people mad but it's true. If you are going to use the Bible as a way of claiming abortion is wrong and homosexuality is wrong then you can't claim that slavery is wrong.Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 3:42 PM
I just see so much hypocrisy here. That's one of the reasons I don't care for Christianity, Either the whole Bible is relative or it condones some horrible things.Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 3:45 PM
Honey, slavery did not mean the same thing in biblical times as it did in Civil War times. It was more like working at wal mart for minimum wage.Posted by: mk at April 25, 2008 3:47 PM
How can you say that mk? Where are you getting that from?Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 4:04 PM
MK is right. I know it sounds crazy, but many people signed themselves into slavery to be free of the citizen obligations that at times were very hairy. At times the elderly would purposely seek the haven of slavery because one of the 'obligations as 'master' was to 'take care' of his slaves .... kinda an old-age security net when society did no have one.Posted by: John McDonell at April 25, 2008 4:08 PM
And slavery is still an issue in many parts of the world today. But like Jill says at least they're living. It seems like that statement proves what many people say when they claim pro-lifers are just pro-birth, that after the child is born they stop caring. I often hear on this site how the quality of life isn't important, just the fact that they are born is.Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 4:13 PM
"They can also anticipate that whatever good they think they are doing in the world will be shadowed in history by their abortion advocacy."
Amen.Posted by: jasper at April 25, 2008 4:14 PM
John, proponents of American slavery often said they were helping their slaves by caring for them, and of corse forcing them to convert to Christianity.Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 4:15 PM
It was basically endengered servitude.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 25, 2008 4:19 PM
Exodus 21:1-4 "If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 4:23 PM
The form of (plantation style) slavery practiced in the US was different from previous versions. For example serfs in Russian could not leave the land they worked and the aristocracy effectively owned them, yet the serfs lived with their families and weren't sold off like in the US. In Rome and Greece, slaves maintained their own households and were sometimes even educated people. The label slave meant they did not have rights such as voting, owning property, leaving the employ of masters, or even leaving town. Their lives were controlled and not free to be sure, however it was not as grim as a plantation. Slavery of this sort still exists around the world because people do not have capital or skills to bargain for a better deal. Also in jewish culture a person could only be a slave for seven years because taking more than that from a person's life was not considered morally right. Poor people would send/sell a child as a worker or apprentice to learn a trade etc. These kids work long and hard and are not paid till they are competent enough to command a higher wage.Posted by: hippie at April 25, 2008 4:24 PM
Jill - there has yet to be a culture in the history of civilization that has been free of abortion, legal or not. So I don't think its remotely likely that at any point in the future, people are going to look back at the ENTIRE history of humanity that existed before them and consider abortion something that overshadows everything else - good OR bad.
Thats *about* as much wishful thinking as it is for me to say that the Red Sox will overshadow ALL the rest of the history of baseball.Posted by: Amanda at April 25, 2008 4:24 PM
I often hear on this site how the quality of life isn't important, just the fact that they are born is.
Posted by: Jess at April 25, 2008 4:13 PM
I haven't ever heard anyone on this site say the quality of life isn't important. Jess this is America and we've had so many examples of people born into meager situations becoming huge successes. We (pro-lifers) have always said the circumstances you were born into didn't matter. That's not the same as quality of life.
Of ALL countries on Earth this is most true in the United States, that's why it's such a tragedy for abortion to be legal in this country.
To be sure slaves are required to follow the religion of the masters whatever that religion may be. Do you really think a hindu or muslim is going to trust a slave of another religion? Do you think Romans allowed slaves to be christians, jews, etc? It was my understanding that is how we ended up with Christmas on 25 Dec. a Roman holiday; christians going along to get along.Posted by: hippie at April 25, 2008 4:30 PM
MK having some computer troubles and since I can't even e-mail - just wishing for a return sometime!
Jess, my take on slavery comes from my SIL, who is a black lady well researched in what slavery meant ... she has very mixed feelings about this institution because of its potential-to-abuse. She is a great opponent of slavery in recent 'civil-war' times.
Even many NA Indian tribes had slaves ... it seems like a very harsh lifestyle but the option for many was either slavery or certain death ... not a very pretty choice!Posted by: John McDonell at April 25, 2008 4:31 PM
"It was basically endengered servitude."
@Bobby: I hate to nitpick but it's "indentured" servitude. :-/Posted by: Rae at April 25, 2008 4:37 PM
Amanda, 4:24p, said: "Jill - there has yet to be a culture in the history of civilization that has been free of abortion, legal or not. So I don't think its remotely likely that at any point in the future, people are going to look back at the ENTIRE history of humanity that existed before them and consider abortion something that overshadows everything else - good OR bad."
Amanda, there is no comparison. We have here abortion on steroids, abortion being pushed openly on a worldwide scale, not just committed clandestinely and sparsely.
Guttmacher states almost 1 billion people have been aborted just in the last decade - of 6.5 billion people. That's a figure of such magnitude, no one can grasp its consequences.Posted by: Jill Stanek at April 25, 2008 4:42 PM
MK is right. I know it sounds crazy, but many people signed themselves into slavery to be free of the citizen obligations that at times were very hairy. At times the elderly would purposely seek the haven of slavery because one of the 'obligations as 'master' was to 'take care' of his slaves .... kinda an old-age security net when society did no have one.
Posted by: John McDonell at April 25, 2008 4:08 PM
Oh yes John. Elderly Africans sprinted for slave ships and chained themselves in, swallowing the keys to avoid being rejected as too old for slavery in America. Well known fact eh John?Posted by: Sally at April 25, 2008 4:51 PM
Lesser known fact: Africans sold off their brothers and sisters to slave traders from America.Posted by: Edyt at April 25, 2008 5:24 PM
Didn't we already explain this to you, Jess? Pay attention this time.
The "slavery" practiced by the Israelites was more like indentured servitude, as has already been said in this thread. If you got yourself into debt, you could sell yourself into slavery for a few years until your debt was paid. Or if you committed a crime, your punishment may have been a certain number of years as a slave. It was hardly the same thing as the enslavement of the African people by the Europeans.
What does the Bible say about the type of slavery we think of in modern times, that is, kidnapping people and forcing them and their descendents into slavery forever? Read the story of Moses and Pharaoh (Exodus, chapters 1 - 14) if you want to know what God thinks about that kind of slavery.Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 25, 2008 5:42 PM
It seems like that statement proves what many people say when they claim pro-lifers are just pro-birth, that after the child is born they stop caring. I often hear on this site how the quality of life isn't important, just the fact that they are born is
Think about...very, very carefully...kay?
What the pro choice side is saying is that they want the right to have sex with whomever they want, whenever they want and not have to deal with any consequences...
They either want the right to kill what they have created OR if they decide to let the child live, then they want society to reward them by paying for all of the childs needs. This is how great their addiction is to the sexual act. They call it sexual freedom. But they are not free to carry the child to term. They are not free to raise the child.
At no point do they say to themselves that perhaps
they should curb their impulses or master their sexual drive. This is because they are not free to do so. They are compelled. Do you understand what a compulsion is Jess?
And when they refuse to curb their impulses they demand the right to eradicate the results or they demand that someone else (ie society) pay for them.
If we don't we are accused of ONLY caring for the unborn.
It is like saying that buy locking up John Wayne Gacy we are only caring about his victims. Why can't we see it from HIS point of view. He has to kill these boys! Don't you get it? Why do you only care about the kids that he kills? Why don't you care about HIS feelings?
Do you see how nuts that is?
Society didn't get these girls pregnant. Society is under no obligation to pay their debt.
AND YET, CPC's are all over the place. Here we are, pro lifers, devoting our lives to giving the mothers a free ride and a pass on morality in order to secure the lives of their unborn children.
What these women have Jess, is a sense of entitlement. They want their cake, they want to eat it, and they want US to wash the plate.
Posted by: mk at April 25, 2008 6:24 PM
Oh yes John. Elderly Africans sprinted for slave ships and chained themselves in, swallowing the keys to avoid being rejected as too old for slavery in America. Well known fact eh John?
Posted by: Sally at April 25, 2008 4:51 PM
Perhaps you didn't understand the conversation.
We were pointing out the DIFFERENCES between slavery in the Old Testament and slavery in Civil War Times. NOT the similarities.
John was referring to biblical slavery.
I've been wondering where you are? Is everything okay otherwise? I miss your emails. They always make me laugh, or make me think. Two things I love. Just like I love you...Posted by: mk at April 25, 2008 6:31 PM
"@Bobby: I hate to nitpick but it's "indentured" servitude. :-/"
Ah, thank you... how embarrassing... I hope Hiero didn't see that!Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 25, 2008 7:34 PM
@Bobby: Your welcome. Gotta live 5th grade history! :)Posted by: Rae at April 25, 2008 7:39 PM
Oh bugger it...that should say, "Gotta LOVE 5th grade history."Posted by: Rae at April 25, 2008 7:44 PM
No, no, you had it right the first time. Let's all live 5th grade history...Posted by: Bobby Bambino at April 25, 2008 7:48 PM
I am not as smart as a 5th grader.Posted by: Carla at April 25, 2008 7:49 PM
I was listening to the radio yesterday, and 93X (a heavy metal radio station) was advertising for a contest called, "Are you smarter than an Exotic Dancer?" lol.Posted by: Rae at April 25, 2008 8:29 PM
I spent the last week in DC, so my ability to blog was spotty.
Jill, ya done good. I don't see how you do it, day after most every day.Posted by: Doug at April 25, 2008 10:52 PM
AHAHAHAHA!! Look at all you "pro-lifers" justifying slavery!! "Oh, it wasn't the same in the Bible! Oh it wasn't that bad! Oh but their relatives sold them in to slavery! And at least they got to live! No liberty, but at least they got to be used like farm animals for a few decades!" Good gravy, is this Jill Stanek's blog or David Duke's?Posted by: reality at April 25, 2008 11:26 PM
Whatever, reality. Slavery is totally okay when we decide it's okay, you know, there are certain contexts, but it's okay for religious people to own slaves like they did in the Bible since they're totally God's chosen people. It's okay to control other people's lives when God says it is. Don't you want to go to heaven!?Posted by: Edyt at April 25, 2008 11:55 PM
Edyt and Reality,
Could you show me where any of us made a judgement call on whether slavery in the old testament was a good thing or a bad thing?
As far as I can tell, we were simply clearing up the misinterpretation of a word that Jess used.
Would you rather we allow her to go on, looking foolish, making comparisons where there are none.
If you'd like to discuss whether or not slavery was a good/bad thing in the old testament, we'd be happy to oblige, but otherwise, think before you accuse.Posted by: mk at April 26, 2008 5:39 AM
Hey Carla and Rae,
When are we going to the MOA???
Rae, I tune into 93.7 every once and awhile.
Cities 97 is my station of choice right behind KQRS. I can't listen to KQ much anymore with kids in the car especially in the morning.
Interesting Jess, that site you linked to, search4truth, is a Islamic site. I clicked on the home page and it said something about Allah.
The bible does not condone slavery.
When I was a sophmore in high school, and we had a unit about slavery in world history, there was one point where the teacher had us lay on the floor of the classroom to demonstrate how close together the slaves were in the ships. It was very interesting.
The Adventures of Huck Finn by Mark Twain deals somewhat with slavery. Should that book be banned or burned? No.
I hated the book THE GOOD EARTH. It was about chinese farmer and his search for a wife. When sons were born, it was 'joyous'. When a daughter was born, they were like "yuck, a slave". This still happens in China - baby girls are killed before they are born (by forced abortions) because baby boys are preferred. This even happens in India.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska
at April 26, 2008 9:32 PM
Ever see GONE WITH THE WIND?
@Sandy: When ever you're available. I'm free tomorrow afternoon if you are.
I used to loooooove 94.5 but then all they play is Maroon 5 and Gwen Stefani...*barf*.
Now I never listen to the radio unless my iPod isn't charged and I don't have CDs in the car.Posted by: Rae at April 26, 2008 10:05 PM
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