New Stanek WND column, "Life will not go on"

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Barack Obama was elected president despite the fact he supports abortion into the fourth trimester....

Either the 63 million people voting for him didn't know about his radical record, which includes abandoning abortion survivors to die, didn't care, or didn't believe it.

Meanwhile all three state pro-life initiatives failed Tuesday....

And both state anti-life initiatives passed....

Altogether, this means we are fooling ourselves if we think the United States is still a Christian nation. Its people just elected a barbarian as president, authorized the killing of both its youngest and sickest, rejected scientific fact that human life begins at conception, blocked parental intervention of abortions of young girls, and voted down the wording of an abortion ban they said only two years ago they would support....

Continue reading my column, "Life will not go on," on WorldNetDaily.com.


Comments:

Life must be approached as a unified whole.
It cannot be approached piecemeal.

It is time for all who are true disciples of Christ to put aside all differences and unite as one body for the Lord.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 6:44 AM


Jill: I completely agree with you that it is the Christian church that must take responsibility for what has happened in America (and Canada too).
Specifically it is very much more the Catholic Church, who must take most of the blame. Yes, it WAS nice to hear the Catholic Bishops speak out - finally after what, 35 years of abortion? But, it was too late.

Unfortunately, the Bishops have ceased being relevant, influences on most Catholic's lives. They don't follow the teachings of the Church on birth control and they certainly won't follow it on abortion or euthanasia. We have at least two generations of poorly catechized Catholics and who don't understand the fullness of truth on life issues.
It will be interesting to see what the Bishops will do following the election. When will we hear the Churches teaching on contraception, abortion and euthanasia in our churches and more importantly in our "Catholic" schools and universities?

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 6:51 AM


Obama's campaign of half truths and contradictions still have many believe he opposes abortion. He is a pro deather and we are to unite against that.

Posted by: xppc at November 6, 2008 6:52 AM


I believe it had more to do with the inconsistent, confusing, messages being put out by the "leaders" within the pro-life movement itself.

Instead of speaking loudly and confidently with one voice, we had people such as J. Farah who actively divided the pro-life vote. And in the case of J. Farah made money off getting Obama elected by selling his book. Talk about blood money.

Yet, no one, not one person in the pro-life area, spoke out against these turncoats who for the next 30 years will be wearing the blood of the victims they condemed to death through their position against the pro-life ticket in favor of Obama the killer.

That is what makes me the sickest about all this. When people are allowed to put out a confusing message WITHOUT CHALLENGE, people are going to become confused.

The pro-life movement is now for all practical purposes dead. Killed by its own leaders who refused to take on the bishops, pastors and fellow leaders who wanted to bring in confusion to an election that called for clarity.

First, people work themselves to death electing in a Republican congress, senate and president to only have them turn into a bunch of big-spending, amoral, bunch of jerks.

Then we work 35 years to have the chance to finally pit the nail in the Roe v. Wade coffin to have J. Farah and other church leaders work their hardest to carve Roe v. Wade into granite.

Now I'm sure J. Farah will be out with another book about "The Opportunity Ahead" or some other nonsense to deflect that he joined with the side to kill another 12 million babies over the next 4 years.

And still no "leader" in the pro-life movement will take him to task for what he was done. Every pro-life leader who wants to blame others for what has happened needs to take a look in a mirror to see who really is to blame.

Posted by: Michael B. at November 6, 2008 6:52 AM


Concerning your opening statement... No, most Americans voting for Obama were absolutely clueless. Listen to that Howard Stern clip.

Posted by: W. Gil at November 6, 2008 6:54 AM


Obama said it himself, "America is no longer a Christian nation."

We live in a nation that allows the genocide of babies, the handicapped and the elderly. It also allows "marriage" of same-sex individuals.

We got what we deserved.

Posted by: Jude at November 6, 2008 6:58 AM


A TRI mester is "3". I don't understand the "4th" trimester.

Also, every "pro-life" politician that we have had has not done anything in the way of supporting pro life.

This entire country should be ashamed for its indifference to the unborn, yet very alive human beings.

Posted by: Lisa L. at November 6, 2008 6:59 AM


President-elect Obama has mentioned that he may authorize a stimulus package to the taxpayers.

I do not want regurgitated government cheese from him. If I do receive a check it will go straight to pro-life organizations.

Posted by: Jeff at November 6, 2008 7:01 AM


Lisa, fyi, "4th trimester abortions" is a term Fr. Pavone coined to mean postbirth abortions.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 6, 2008 7:05 AM


Hey Jill, often times, the worst punishment from God is getting what we deserve, and what the majority want.

P.S. Maybe you, Burt Prelusky, my Catholic friends, and myself can all be bunk mates in the gulags....

Posted by: Chris T. at November 6, 2008 7:07 AM


Chris there won't be any gulags. It's just that abortion will become a "basic human right" and basic human rights are nondebatable. That's when abortion is so entrenched that no one talks about abortion, can picket clinics or do sidewalk counselling without getting arrested, nor carry signs or have info tables at universities and other institutions.
Come to Canada some time. Our gulags are very open.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 7:14 AM


also don't forget that abortion is funded by tons of money both government and private donations.
It's hard to take on your opponent when it's government backed.
How fitting that the generation who brought us legal abortion will likely be the ones euthanized. Very fitting, indeed.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 7:17 AM


Here's how the kingdom of heaven will be like at His return:

"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' " 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. [Matthew 25: 1-13 NIV]

Those who hold to the teaching of God have filled their lives with the oil of the Holy Spirit, yet those who are in the church who haven't been obedient have no fruit - oil. It cannot be purchased or shared.

Their light will be extinguished for lack of fruit, and they will be in the dark.

Not everyone who is claiming to be a follower of Christ, truly is one.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 7:22 AM


Our gulags are very open.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 7:14 AM

What I hear you saying Patricia, is that people are in gulags (a word for Soviet concentration camps) in their hearts.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 7:34 AM


yes Chris. Very much so. How can a mother kill her own child? It is heartless.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 7:35 AM


Thank you for your article, "Life Will Not Go On"! I appreciate your ability to articulate so well the truth about the current culture of death.

As a Catholic priest I have tried to craft homilies that were pro-life, pro-chastity, and against contraception, and to do so in a way so as not to turn people off, but, at the same time, to express the truth clearly. Of course, I will continue to do so.

Sadly, I have to agree with you that Catholics bear the brunt of the responsibility for the current state of affairs. Still, Christian Hope gives me confidence that Catholics will eventually see the light and that the pro-life cause will win out, since it is the will of God. In the meantime, I stay in the fight - I have no other "choice."

Keep up the good work and God Bless!

Posted by: Fr. Greg at November 6, 2008 7:38 AM


This is all very disappointing, but we must not despair. That is EXACTLY what the devil wants. He wants us to think that all our work, all our effort, everything we have done, was and will be for naught. So why not just give up? Because NOW is the time to show our love and commitment to the Lord. It's easy to get behind and stand firm with God when things are going well and we're seeing progress. But now when it seems that our efforts can do nothing like right now? This is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 7:44 AM


Thanks you for giving your life to our Lord, Fr. Greg. And thank you so much for preaching against contraception in the pulpit. In 28 years, I have NEVER ONCE heard a homily (in person) against contraception. It is shameful. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 7:47 AM


I couldn't help but think, after Obama was elected, of Israel's insistence on having a human king "like all the other nations." God sent them warning of what this would mean, and still they cried out, "Give us a king." God gave them what they asked for....

Perhaps He has just done the same for us.

Come, Lord Jesus, before we completely self-destruct.

Posted by: TNT at November 6, 2008 7:51 AM


I too am a nurse in Illinois and long standing child advocate.

Today I am deeply, deeply saddened by my fellow Americans' lack of compassion for or ignorance of what these innocent children are going through. How can they justify putting such a man in office? Even Catholics are looking the other way on this.

I have tried to explain to several friends and family members what a vote for Obama would mean and they simply don't believe or want to believe what I am telling them or that this is happening.

I am struggling with this a great deal.

Posted by: nurseinillinois at November 6, 2008 7:56 AM


Good morning all. This is such a horrible day. The mood here in my town is somber. I have to say that I believe this election became a racial thing toward the end. There were tons of perks offered to Obama supporters here in NE Ohio. JZ and LeBron James gave/set up a fee concert to obtain the African American Obama votes.The concert was filled to the max. I also believe there was voter fraud from Acorn that went uninvestigated...How is it that most African Americans go to church very Sunday and still can't see how the abortion industry is so evil? I am heartsick.

Posted by: heather at November 6, 2008 8:09 AM


Have you ever heard of the madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly, "I am looking for God! I am looking for God!"

As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances.

"Where has God gone?" he cried. "I shall tell you. We have killed him--you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us--for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and again regarded his listeners; and they too were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern to the ground, and it broke and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time has not come yet. The tremendous event is still on its way, still travelling--it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time, the light of the stars requires time, deeds require time even after they are done, before they can be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than the distant stars--and yet they have done it themselves."

It has been further related that on that same day the madman entered divers churches and there sang a requiem. Led out and quietened, he is said to have retorted each time, "What are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchres of God?"

written by Friedrich Nietsche, the philosopher who died in A.D. 1900 after some years of insanity

He was a German, living in the country where the Protestant Reformation began and where it to a large degree had ended at the time of Nietsche's death about four hundred years later. Two world wars followed. Higher criticism of the Bible had led much of the Church to treat God's Word as a merely man-made document. In America, as in Germany, this apostasy led to the adoption of the "social gospel" by the mainline churches. This seems to be the kind of gospel that Mr. Obama preached while a "community organizer" for his church. Such a church regards the true gospel of Jesus Christ as obsolete.

The Lord still builds His Church. He does not need the Church. Much less does He need America. The Church and America need Him.

That place where God is dead is called hell. God is only active there in His anger. Let's return to His Word while we can still hear it.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 8:21 AM


Posted by: Fr. Greg at November 6, 2008 7:38 AM

Fr. Greg, can you tell me in what state are you living? I'm just wondering because I am in Illinois (Joliet Diocese) and I have joined and left three parishes because of the lack of direction from the priests.

I was blessed with a good, orthodox, Catholic education but the ignorance of the Faith of my Catholic friends is remarkable. They seek out the parish that "makes them feel good." While I do believe it's necessary to feel good about your parish, it should not be at the expense of your soul.

I am now at a parish where the pastor and associate pastor are very good and faithful men. I pray that one of my three sons becomes a priest and the only way that will happen is if they have good examples.

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 8:25 AM


Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 7:47 AM

I also have never heard a homily about contraception use - in person. The problem with this is that faithful Catholics have a hard time promoting something the priests seem reluctant to discuss. We are looking to them for support and not finding it, this is the problem in MANY churches today. Priests; give us the guidance we need and are looking for in our lives!

(Fr. Greg, that was not directed at you!) :)

Jon, that was a beautiful post.

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 8:33 AM


Thanks, Kristen!

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 8:43 AM


We should NEVER give up........
Those of us who are Christians: remember, the Apostles never gave up that Christ would rise from the dead!

http://www.instantteleseminar.com/?eventid=4819845

Listen to the teleseminar from last night w/ Frank Pavone.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 6, 2008 8:43 AM


WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP!!! We will go to our own deaths if we have to.

"Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred."

-Tennyson

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 6, 2008 9:02 AM


This was a powerful article. I need to print it out and bring it to my church.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 9:02 AM


Oh, Jill, you've gone terribly shrill.

You aren't going to win any more supporters with this language and these tactics.

We "just elected a barbarian as President?" Wow.

That these anti-choice initiative failed should not be taken as a failure on any Church's part -- the Church should play no role in American politics, anyway.

It should be taken as a clear indication that the American people, by and large, support abortion rights.

This language might whip up your trips and get a few more doctors shot, but you will go nowhere in trying to get laws passed.

You're on the losing side. And you are going to keep losing.

Posted by: K. at November 6, 2008 9:04 AM



Thank you Jill for that powerful column. I was excited to see the bishops FINALLY speak out but as my husband said they were too little too late. Now that we have hit rock bottom with embracing the culture of death, we may wake up. The protestant pastors I hate to say for the most part are worse than the Catholic priests in not speaking out. We have not studied our history and have forgotten how it started in Germany with a charismatic leader coming to power amidst economic crisis and the church remained silent as to not lose their influence and power (money). But as citizens we must continue the fight. We must have our mourning period and then stand up again and fight. With people like Father Pavone and Jill as examples let us fight on. Show them just what abortion is. Let them look evil in the eye. As a nation, God may have to allow us to have our way so we may see how depraved we really are. It has pained me greatly to see people of faith give up on this issue or declare it a non issue. As a pro life educator, churches have always been my toughest customer. They are afraid to offend. May God forgive us.

Posted by: maria at November 6, 2008 9:07 AM


The Obama-Aid has all been consumed. None left. What will happen? The Onion exposes the tragedy.

Obama Win Causes Obsessive Supporters To Realize How Empty Their Lives Are

Posted by: Cranky Catholic at November 6, 2008 9:09 AM


Either the 63 million people voting for him didn't know about his radical record, which includes abandoning abortion survivors to die, didn't care, or didn't believe it.

BINGO! They shouldn't believe it, because it's a lie.

Posted by: reality at November 6, 2008 9:09 AM


Dear Jill
I'm not American but my thoughts and prayers are with your nation right now. Do not give up or lose hope; as some of the posts have said, perhaps out of this darkness, good will come, though we must be patient. Isn't that the point of securing a future for our children? We may not see the fruits, but we work so our children will. The key is to continue to EDUCATE - it never ceases to amaze me that in this day and age, many still don't realise that abortion is NOT removing a clump of cells. To all US pro-lifers: Please don't give up on saving the next generation! Your efforts are an inspiration to the rest of the world. God Bless.

Posted by: Rose at November 6, 2008 9:10 AM


Personally-- you cannot make any dent in the pro-life movement if you don't increase your knowledge of how we treat the poor- the disabled-. Start acknowledging the folks left in the cold...
We hurt people every day...and the word I get from so many people is that they look at MORE than abortion...
So many folks felt that Bush didn't really do anything for Abortion and he had 8 yrs! Why would a moderate like John Mcain do anything... And at the same time, our country is in shambles and our healthcare system sucks.... People are going to turn to the left..

Alot of polling has taken place with the Dems on who voted for who... the large percentage of highly educated white folks voted democrat... the undereducated voted Mcain... This means something... Start there... start those conversations...

So.. who did I vote for... Mcain/Palin... So don't accuse me of being on the left... I have many, many liberal friends that are good people who do so much for the good of humanity, they hate abortion and believe it is a tragic, tragic place we have come to..But their reasoning goes far beyond.. and it very heart felt and faithful to the love of Christ...

Just some words...

Posted by: Melanie at November 6, 2008 9:13 AM


Jill,

"The church must stop abdicating responsibility to stop abortion to the pro-life movement and politicians. God's people are commissioned.

Yet almost half of all Catholics still voted for Obama, indicating edicts alone won't work. Only consistent church teaching that breaks through deadened consciences on the horror of abortion in conjunction with education on the godly confines of sexual behavior will do.

Face it. It is the Christian church's fault that legalized abortion in America – and now infanticide – exists and persists."

While I can understand your extreme disappointment, I cannot fully agree that it's the Christian church's fault.

As a practicing Catholic, I call myself a Catholic, and indeed, I feel that I am a Catholic. I practice my faith, live it, teach it to my children and accept ALL the teachings of the church, even when my mind does not fully understand everything. I have trust in Christ's guidance of our church over time.

But there are also many others who think of themselves as Catholics who do none of these same things. I think, maybe 25% of "Catholics" in the U.S. attend Mass each weekend, even though it is considered a sin to not attend.

How many of these same Catholics do not accept any number of the teachings of Christ given through his Church?

All this means is that just as I am English, Irish, Polish and German, many people are "Catholic". It is a label, not a lifestyle or a commitment to God.

And not to let off the other Christian churches, but they too have these same issues too.

My point is that our christian churches are actually smaller than we think with those who follow Christ and put a high value on "life".

It's not all the Bishops' and church leaders fault. Like you said, "God's people are commissioned".

God Bless,
Roger

Posted by: Roger at November 6, 2008 9:15 AM


i am soooo tired of people saying that Bush didn't do anything for abortion! does anyone remember that little thing called the partial birth abortion ban awhile back?

Posted by: becky at November 6, 2008 9:18 AM


It's people just elected a barbarian as president...

Wow.. you are getting out of control Jill...

I watched the election night.. I cried as I watched Obama take the stand...the first AFRICAN AMERICAN PRESIDENT... WOW! How great for our Country...

It is almost like you have lost sight of all the adversity in our country--the many pressing issues that hurt people and are sinful... The lies of the current administration and the failures that they have committed by being dishonest.....

You sound barbaric yourself... and my sister recently told me... (she is poor single mother of 4 children, screwed by the system, living in poverty...and trying to fight the world that is crashing around her).... It is websites like "Jill Staneks" that have pushed me over the edge to see that they are not a compassionate crowd... Socially, they see the straight and narrow..and that isn't how we tackle issues..."

She WAS an extreme conservative..and if your site was able to turn her to the left.. wow... Props to you..

Posted by: Gill at November 6, 2008 9:30 AM


Umm...guys? I love you all, you know that, I really do, but don't you think that maybe, juuuuust a little, you're over-reacting? Just a teeny bit?

Posted by: Erin at November 6, 2008 9:33 AM


Question: If Michael Steele was the one elected the first black president instead of Barack Obama, would Gill et al be celebrating?

Answer: No.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 6, 2008 9:38 AM


ya'll are crazies..

Posted by: Dan at November 6, 2008 9:44 AM


And in the spirit of all of these people who show up on Jill's site and declare that reading her site for five minutes made them abandon a lifetime of conservative Republicanism, here's a fun story for you.

I know someone who was a lifelong Democrat. But after reading posts up on BarackObama.com, he switched to conservative Republican! WOW!!! Obama must really be a hater! I mean, this person was pro-abortion, pro-socialism, and thought the Iraq War was an illegal war for oil. After five minutes of reading posts on BarackObama.com, he is now pro-life, pro-capitalism, and want to fight Islamic fascism! ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? And all because the people posting on Obama's website are so out of control.

(Like my story? See, I can make up stuff, too)

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 6, 2008 9:46 AM


So we install a barbaric President. If we examine his bro that he gave $1,000,000 in Kenya and his blood 1/2 brother George in Kenya, yes i would say barbaric.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1856188,00.html

This is a barbaric friends of Obama celebration.

About 50 parishioners were locked into the Assemblies of God church before it was set ablaze. They were mostly women and children. Those who tried to flee were hacked to death by machete-wielding members of a mob numbering 2,000.

The 2008 New Year Day atrocity in the Kenyan village Eldoret, about 185 miles northwest of Nairobi, had all the markings of the Rwanda genocide of a decade earlier.

By mid-February 2008, more than 1,500 Kenyans were killed. Many were slain by machete-armed attackers. More than 500,000 were displaced by the religious strife. Villages lay in ruin. Many of the atrocities were perpetrated by Muslims against Christians.

The violence was led by supporters of Raila Odinga, the opposition leader who lost the Dec. 27, 2007, presidential election by more than 230,000 votes. Odinga supporters began the genocide hours after the final election results were announced Dec. 30. Mr. Odinga was a member of Parliament representing an area in western Kenya, heavily populated by the Luo tribe, and the birthplace of Barack Obama's father.


Mr. Odinga and Mr. Obama were nearly inseparable throughout Mr. Obama's six-day stay

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/12/obamas-kenya-ghosts/

Obama supports the barbaric world as reported.

Posted by: xppc at November 6, 2008 9:47 AM


Erin at November 6, 2008 9:33 AM

Overreacting?

Erin - ever seen the video "Hard Truth"?

If you haven't watch it:

http://www.abortiontv.com/Movies/hardtruth.htm

Tell me if we're overreacting after seeing that.

Tell me you don't get an ominous feeling knowing that the man who will be President has not one problem with what happens there, and is working as we speak to continue what is shown.


Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 9:48 AM


I think when you use the word "Barbarian" you should expect some conflict to be stirred... Bad choice of words Jill..sorry.

Posted by: carla #2 at November 6, 2008 9:48 AM


You liars who claim that Jill single-handedly switched people from Republican to Democrat remind me of Teresa Heinz-Kerry. She said that she decided to switch from Republican to Democrat because a senator ran a political ad she didn't like. That's insane. You would abandon all of your principles because one member of your party - not even the leader of the party or close to being the leader - made ONE ad that you didn't like?

Of course, it was nothing but an excuse from Ter-Ay-Za. And it's the same with all of the people dropping by here to claim that Jill somehow made them throw away everything they believed in.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 6, 2008 9:57 AM


Jill:

Your post is right on the money. God is in control.

Something very telling occured in the election.

In CA and FL where the marriage amendments passed, and where 90% of the black vote went for Obama, blacks voted in the 75% range for marriage.

To me this says that for blacks, the race issue trumped the abortion issue. I have always said that the key to ending the abortion issue was the church but more specifically the black church. Wasn't it Martin Luther King Jr. that said he hoped a day would come when a man would be judged by the content of his character than the color of his skin? Well, this idea was betrayed on Novemeber 4 and I call on all black believers to admit that if you voted for Barack Obama that your actions were as racist as any white man's vote for the Ku Klux Klan.

Let's remember this. Even though blacks have suffered greatly under the affects of slavery, they are still subject to the same commands of the Lord to live holy and righteious lives that involve forgiveness for past offenses, etc.

Does Pastor Wright, Brack Obama or Louis Farrakan sound like black men who have forgiven whites for anything? What does Jesus say about those Christinas who fail to forgive? It says their sins will not be forgiven.

Now I have a ton of black Christian friends. Had Obama not been black fewer Christian blacks would have voted for him. For blacks, the race issue is culturally and emotionally embedded. It is deeply ingrained into their psyche. In fact, it is a generational curse and some black pastors understnad this. If blacks are to be freed indeed from this curse they must now forget about the racism of the past and embrace integrity and character and allegiance to God's word.

As my good black friend Caryl said, (I serve on her husband's board), abortion for black people is not an issue. It is not talked about in churches, it is not even consisdered. Well, now is the time for that to end.

So, the strategy now becomes to remove the 501c3 muzzle on the church which the ADF is now enjoining and to gather black pastors to start preaching and teaching about the evils of abortion. They are now without excuse and will be held accountable by a holy God if they fail to do this.

So, if there is any hope in turning the heart of Barack Obama and black fathers back to their children it will have to be done through the black churches for they now have the loudest voice.

I now implore all black pastors to repent of not addressing the issue of abortion in your churches and hold your black president to account.

Wouldn't it be just like God to use black people, the most persecuted race in American history to save America from destruction?

And let us not be ignorant of this, the signs of our impending destruction are all around us. God is shouting at us, "please listen to me so I can withold my judgemnet". Do not think it a coincidence that most of the blue states are in areas that have the most potential and risk for natural disaster be it earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hurricanes and the like. Further, our economy is on the brink of an all out collapee and it's just a matter of time before terrorists light off a tactical nuclear weapon in one or more of our cities.

God is not mocked and I hope it is not too late. I do not know if we have crossed the line yet for Novemebr 4, 2008 was the darkest day in American history. I can only continue to keep begging people to repent. Perhaps yet darker days are before us, however, it doesn't have to be this way. God can save us if we repent, if we change, if we cry out to Him.

2 Chronicles 7:13-18

13 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16 I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

17 "As for you, if you walk before me as David your father did, and do all I command, and observe my decrees and laws, 18 I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father when I said, 'You shall never fail to have a man to rule over Israel.'"

However, there are grave consequences for not heeding God's admonition:

2 Chronicles 7:19-22:

"19 "But if you turn away and forsake the decrees and commands I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 20 then I will uproot Israel from my land, which I have given them, and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. I will make it a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples. 21 And though this temple is now so imposing, all who pass by will be appalled and say, 'Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?' 22 People will answer, 'Because they have forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them—that is why he brought all this disaster on them.' "

As Israel was destroyed so will the United States of America be destoyed if the chruch fails now.

Fr. Greg:

The gospel is inherently offensive. Jesus is called a "rock of offense". Why in the world would you care one iota if your sermons are offensive simply because you are proclaiming the word? This attitude must change my brother, this must change or are we trying to please men and not God? This is a huge problem in the Catholic Church.

Chris:

Yes, this parable of the virgins is the relevant parable of our time. Many believers who claim Christ will not be looking for or ready for Christ's return and will be lost forever as a result.

Believers all: It's time you started to take Christ and His words seriously. This is no joke. Read your Bibles, pray, repent, ask God and He will show you what to do. I beleive Jesus is coming soon and if we are not looking for his return we will be cast into outer darkness. Make a list of everyone you need to forgive and forgive them, repent from watching pornography (even teh R rated stuff), stealing, cheating, lusting, slandering, and all gossiping, etc. Seek the Lord with all your hearts. All who come to Him and seek Him will not be cast out for He is a loving and merciful Savior. We do not have much time.

Jill:

I suggest you discourage any non-believer or pro-aborts from posting any anti-life messages here or speaking against God. They have won this battle and they have done enough damage and have been allowed to lead many away from the truth. Thre's just too much at stake....the eternal souls of human beings.

Hal:

I don't hate you, however, I am deeply afraid for you. Of all the pro-aborts on this site you have been the most destructive and most deceptive. I pray that God will have mercy on you and your family before it is too late. The blood of many are on your head. I shudder to think of the destruction coming upon you if you do not wholeheartedley seek the Lord for forgiveness.

Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 10:08 AM


What??

Fourth trimester...is that after the third half???

Posted by: Alan at November 6, 2008 10:22 AM


All Jill did was to tell the truth.

Obama lied, promised everything and will deliver chaos and destruction.

People that choose the liar over the truth teller suffer the consequences of their choices.

Slim:

It's Abortifascists that use abortion rights, the murder of children in the womb, as a carrot on a stick for power.

Well you got your power and now you will reap the whirlwind.

Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 10:25 AM


Excellent commentary.

Please stay on this message. Please keep bringing it up, again and again, until people hear and heed it.

I am going to do whatever I can to wake up the clergy in my community. One helpful resource for priests and pastors is Answering The Call by John Ensor. If you haven't seen it, I encourage you to check it out.

I am also realizing more and more that prayer and fasting is absolutely crucial. We cannot win this spiritual battle without God's strong intervention.

Posted by: Valerie M. at November 6, 2008 10:34 AM


If Jill calling BO barbaric seems over the top, I can cut her some slack. She looked into his eyes and described holding a breathing baby and not being allowed to do anything to save her life and saw up close and personal his callous response.

Posted by: maria at November 6, 2008 10:37 AM


Posted by: Dan at November 6, 2008 9:44 AM

I'd appreciate if you'd change your name to Dan 2 or Dan and a last initial, then we can all avoid confusion :)

Posted by: Dan at November 6, 2008 10:41 AM


Dear Patricia,
How can a mother kill her own child? It is heartless.

Maybe you are thinking aloud. I am not sure but I must say those words hold much condemnation for me and others like me. There is a tone of judgment. It keeps the women who regret their abortions hidden. Hiding their shame and their pain. We aren't supposed to be ashamed. We are supposed to be fine with it. We are supposed to get on with it. I killed my own child. The hows and whys of that I am not even sure I can articulate and really what would be the point?

Seek first to understand, even when it is hard to understand. Women who have had abortions and regret them need much compassion and time to heal.

You can email me if you want to discuss this more. I just had to say that and mean no disrespect by it.

Yours,
Carla

Posted by: Carla at November 6, 2008 10:45 AM


Jill, we need a no-obot day or something. Or maybe an ignore feature. These people are just an annoyance. Sorry, but that's what I think.

Posted by: Andy at November 6, 2008 10:45 AM


"Novemebr 4, 2008 was the darkest day in American history." Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 10:08 AM

You are beneath contempt.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2008 10:48 AM


"The gospel is inherently offensive. Jesus is called a "rock of offense". Why in the world would you care one iota if your sermons are offensive simply because you are proclaiming the word? This attitude must change my brother, this must change or are we trying to please men and not God? This is a huge problem in the Catholic Church."

AMEN HISMAN!! I'm sure Father Greg means well and is one of the better preists, but this has to change!.

Posted by: Jasper at November 6, 2008 10:49 AM


It's refreshing to see many new people adding commentary here, and I want to thank you all - it's encouraging.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 10:52 AM


Pathetic!!!

Maybe you should expand your world view?? Then again don't. You would need thought, reason, sound judgment, and most importantly, to evolve. As I'm sure you believe in creationism - for you to evolve (like our species) - would be too much to ask!!

When you and your followers - begin to seriously address the myriad of issues that threaten everyone - you'll begin to see the work, commitment, sacrifice and reason - you would need.

It is easier to deny others rights than to actually work to make the world a better place. Your delusion that you are pro-life is so sad, so dated, and hopefully something of the past.

Go read a book........learn some reason.......and most importantly..........EVOLVE!!

Posted by: James at November 6, 2008 10:52 AM


James at November 6, 2008 10:52 AM

James - exactly who are you addressing?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 10:54 AM


I just think that people don't want the GOVERNMENT in their bedrooms or in their personal lives.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 10:55 AM


What lies beneath a barbarian in respect for life?


Even a barbarian would respect their dead by many attending the death of a family memeber.


Not a peep about the O man attending a funeral of the " one that raised him".

He wasn't present at the burial of his mother.

Guaranteed that the wife of the neo-barbarian will not be present at the funeral of his grandmother.

She really raised him.

The attraction of the O man is he represents multi millions of people who are like him.

He has no family, and never did respect what little family he had growing up.

The youth of the USA understands this psychological connection to the neo-barbarian, named Obama.

They post here as youthful pro abortionist.

Or, party on dude, who cares if she is not in the ground, yet.

History is replete with those neo-barbarians who had no family, or hated where and who they grew up with.

Many such kindred spirits post here as pro abortionist, and in a furious telling of what is nothing more then hating their families first and foremost.

Stalin, Mao, and Hitler being examples of making the state the family, and then forcing such thinking upon all of their captive citizens when the subjects annointed their lifetime father figure as a murdering dictator.

They didn't have to force much.

Eventually they were caught in the vortex of hate they created against the family and visited their father's hate of them in a gulag or prison where they finally found peace.

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 10:58 AM


President Andrew Jackson was also called a barbarian. My quick Internet search would have me believe that he "could not write a sentence of grammar, and hardly could spell his own name." I think I've read somewhere that he basically trashed the White House too.

President Barrack Obama will be a different type of barbarian. He is literate and highly eloquent. He will probably not damage the White House, nor I hope, commit indecent acts in the Oval Office (not that Mr. Jackson was necessarily guilty of the latter). But he has, and--by all signs--will continue to support forced (induced) abortion and infanticide.

Some people would agree that Mr. Hitler was a man of violence though I am not aware that he personally killed anyone except himself. He may have been personally responsible for an abortion, but so might Mr. Obama, for all we know. My point is that if Mr. Hitler is responsible for the blood of a multitude, Mr. Obama is also--at least partially--responsible for the blood of a multitude. Already he is now, as a senator in Illinois (a small multitude, anyway) and in the future most likely too, as a "pro-choice" president of the U.S., failing to execute justice for the unborn.

Was Mr. Hitler a barbarian? Maybe not. Maybe barbarian was not the best choice of words. But I think everybody gets the point.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 10:58 AM


I just think that people don't want the GOVERNMENT in their bedrooms or in their personal lives.

I think there are just as many of us who don't want your god, bible, or religion in OUR bedrooms or personal lives.

Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 11:03 AM


Jill

Get over yourself. Get out of the way of your own self. The key word is self. I am pro-choice not because I believe in abortion - I don't - my choice (self). I believe in God, He is the author and finisher of My (self) life. When my life is over I (self) stand before God. Not my mother, not my father, not my sister, not my brother, not my pastor, and not you. The only think people like you pro-lifers can do for a person considering abortion is give advise. It is a sin to misrepresent God's word. Just like me (self) you (self) will stand before God alone and be held accountable for your acts.

If this is the "End Times" Thank God!! I (self)am ready at the very moment. Are you (self)?

Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 11:05 AM


I mourn with you, Jill.

You've been a tireless crusader is this most disgusting place. It took a long time to come around to even thinking twice about abortion period. My church recently ran a long article in its monthly magazine about abortion. I think the article was a gentle reminder in a time of amendments to remember these are children from God sent to earth.

You do your best. I certainly did mine. My state carried McCain but we are small and our numbers not election changing. I wish I could do more.

And yes our cause is hobbled. I'm not really sure what just happened or why. And tomorrow I may feel more inclined to dust myself off and forge ahead, but for today, just know you are not alone in being shocked, appalled and deeply saddened.

I know we must never give up, but today the prospects for life seem much much dimmer.

Thank you for what you do and write.

Posted by: Terri at November 6, 2008 11:07 AM


You are beneath contempt.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2008 10:48 AM

Come on Hal, defend the right of Hisman's speech, as you have written nothing that condemns the speech that was "beneath contempt", for Bush.

Or,stop being such a drama queen, Hal.

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:08 AM


I agree with you wholeheartedly. The church has failed. We are far more concerned about buildings, budgets and committees than we are about teaching God’s Word, Plan and Principles.

May God have mercy on us.

Posted by: BJB at November 6, 2008 11:09 AM


God, this is all so old. I probably won't comment on an Obama post for a while. All I hear nowadays is:

"OMG THE RAPTURE IS COMING THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE" (props to South Park last night for addressing that lol)

"Um...I think you are overreacting."

"I HATE PRO-LIFERS!"

"You just voted for Hitler/antichrist/Stalin, congratulations!"
(Interesting I've heard him being compared to both a Fascist and a Communist--completely separate principles, get em straight!)

I mean, seriously guys. Don't you get tired of this too? Have fun.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 6, 2008 11:18 AM


I am pro-choice not because I believe in abortion - I don't - my choice (self). I believe in God, He is the author and finisher of My (self) life.
Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 11:05 AM


Your God was a murderer from the beginning, and has condmened you to do his will by murdering his creation in the womb.

Or it's a blessing from your God to abort life, as a feast unto your murdering God, Sonja?

Doing the work of God knowing your going to meet all those you helped murder in the womb is going to be interesting when you go to the great Murder Heaven of your God.

Tell me, what ya going to say to those aborted creations who were allowed to spread the love of your murdering God?

OR, how Sonja meets her self made murder in her mind, and rejoices in a bath of creation blood.

Tell me Sonja, who is in hell then?

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:19 AM


I just think that people don't want the GOVERNMENT in their bedrooms or in their personal lives.

I'm sorry, John S., but I just think that is one of the most stupid statements ever made. You didn't make it (only repeated it) so don't be offended.

It's okay that I kill my wife? It's okay that I molest my children? It's okay that I father a child but do not pay child support? It's okay that I gather personal information in order to blackmail? What are you suggesting? The civil government should do nothing?

Of course, we don't want the government in our lives. As the Bible says, obey the government and you will have no reason to fear them! They do not carry the sword (or electric chair) in vain. You shall not murder.

I think there are just as many of us who don't want your god, bible, or religion in OUR bedrooms or personal lives.

Sammie, you're a little more honest. But not enough. I think you're implying that we should accept your god, bible, and religion. But the U.S. has a Christian heritage, and its Constitution was greatly influenced by Christian ideas. Secular humanism as a religion of stealth has taken over, permitted by a feeble church. What's more, your god, bible, and religion are different tomorrow than today. What's more--they're false.

I'm sorry, Sammie, if I misunderstood you. Perhaps you are a Christian. Your words seem ambiguous to me. Obviously a nation is going to have to base its legislation on some god, bible, and religion. Life is religious. Let's enlighten folks about the true God, the Bible, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 11:22 AM


PIP, I'm with you. I drafted a response to yllas, and then deleted it. I'm done. The election's over. The people have spoken. I'll be very quiet.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2008 11:23 AM


Maria, 10:37 , well said.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 11:25 AM


I mean, seriously guys. Don't you get tired of this too? Have fun.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 6, 2008 11:18 AM

Spoken like a person defending Hitler by the appeal of "be happy", allow the will of the O man to be done.

Which means, PIP has a streak of Hitler happiness in her already, from just having the O man elected and dictating death to innocent life
is just another price to pay to be happy.


Really PIP, daddy happiness is going to make you pay for his wall street buddies he gave $700 and not a dime to main street. Sucker!!!!

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:28 AM


Thank you for your great column. Especially thanks for noting the contraception link to abortion. Keep up the good work for the babies’ sake.

Posted by: Robert S. at November 6, 2008 11:32 AM


PIP said, "I've heard [Mr. Obama] being compared to both a Fascist and a Communist--completely separate principles, get em straight"

Well, I'm like my father in some ways, and like my mother in others. They were completely different rulers, but thankfully they were pretty good ones and complement each other as they should.

Fascists and communists don't complement each other, but a person can share one trait with a fascist and another trait with a communist. What's more, a person can share the same trait with both a fascist and a communist. What's more, fascism and communism themselves both have a history of exceedingly great violence. Some like myself say that Mr. Obama has that same trait of violence, or is in danger of it.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 11:34 AM


PIP, I'm with you. I drafted a response to yllas, and then deleted it. I'm done. The election's over. The people have spoken. I'll be very quiet.

Posted by: Hal at November 6, 2008 11:23 AM

Look forward to four more years of speaking truth to power, dude.

You created the mood Hal, you and the millions of unhinged liberals who went to the gutter on a president, named Bush.

Which is why a awareness of Hitler is in the air Hal, Hitler is Bush. Even a unhinged senator believed that Bush was Hitler, and condemned his soldiers to being nothing more then Nazi's soldiers defending the reich, All the while they died defending your money grubbing hands taking from the poor in desperate conditions.

Such a fascist you are Hal.

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:35 AM


You wrote:

The pro-life movement was actually born of necessity by a void in church teaching, and now the church is almost completely reliant on our para-church organizations and the government to handle the gravest human atrocity in all of history.

You are exactly right. The command to "make disciples" has been almost completely abandoned in favor of Rick Warren style salvation prayers: "I believe it. I receive it." Christian education is my field of study. I have watched this area decline for almost 40 years. I do not have hope that the trend will reverse itself.

I believe we are witnessing the beginning of the great deception spoken of by Jesus. Many have commented about the circumstances that raised the barbarian to power. The hate for Christ and Christians is directly related to the deception.

Even though I would like to think that there will be a backlash against the barbarian and his party, our hope is in the One who knew when the barbarian would come to power and knows when he will fall.

Posted by: Tim B. at November 6, 2008 11:36 AM


Jon:

Of course it is not ok to kill your wife or molest your children. The very point of liberty is your rights end where someone else's begin. But until a baby is born it doesn't have rights. Read the 14th Amendment. YOu can argue all day about when life begins, conception, viability, etc., but that's always been the case. We don't hand out "conception certificates." But Jill goes further, saying contraception is wrong. Now we're not even arguing about anyone else's potential rights, that's purely government in your bedroom. The trend of public opinion is against you on this and I don't think that trend is going to change any time soon.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 11:38 AM


A tremendous article!! You are absolutely right.

A sad day for the US pro life movement and for Canada!

Keep up the good work. Try not to get discouraged!

God be with you always!

Posted by: krabid at November 6, 2008 11:38 AM


I am sitting here reading your article, and I am crying. I cannot believe so many people who call themselves Catholic would vote for such a person as Obama. People are more concerned with money than the fact that children are dying everyday in the womb. And I am afraid of the direction this country is headed.

I guess all we can do is pray for an end to this madness.

Posted by: Mary D. at November 6, 2008 11:41 AM


I couldn't help but think, after Obama was elected, of Israel's insistence on having a human king "like all the other nations." God sent them warning of what this would mean, and still they cried out, "Give us a king." God gave them what they asked for....

Perhaps He has just done the same for us.

Come, Lord Jesus, before we completely self-destruct.
Posted by: TNT at November 6, 2008 7:51 AM

Good point, I think this warning came with John McCain and to a larger extent Sarah Palin.

I remember well when Rick Warren asked when human life begins, and without hesitation McCain said "at the moment of conception." During the campaign several times Sarah mentioned Obama's radical abortion record.

So people were warned about that. Many chose to ignore or did not believe it.

Posted by: Joanne at November 6, 2008 11:45 AM


You are of course correct in all you say. A moral fog from satan has descended on our culture. It makes it impossible for most people to think clearly.

Even Christian leaders who should be firmly on our side have been overcome by this fog. Frankly, I don't think we can ever count on them. I have talked to many of them. I am Southern Baptist. They all say "yes, they are pro-life". But they do almost nothing about it. They are for the most part cowards. It actually amazes me that with so little real support from church leaders that so many people share our pro-life view.

Several years ago, I wrote an essay calling for a continuous nationwide barrage of pro-life advertising. Sadly, in all this 36 years, we have never been able to mount more that a few rife shots of pro-life advertising.

Lately, I have been thinking a lot about the NRA. It would be neat if we could copy their strategy. If we did, we would win!!!! The gun issue and the abortion issue are similar in many ways. Both have to fight a moral fog that is easily picked up by fuzzy thinking people. It takes mental effort to be on the right side of both issues. At one time and not too long ago, democrats and liberals made the gun issue a centerpoint of their campaigns. Not anymore! The NRA has won this issue. The Supreme Court has even ruled in their favor. This is how they did it. They have only one highly effective organization with one simple message. On the other hand, we have thousands of organizations. All of them have different messages. No wonder, so little ground is gained for life.

So my dear Jill, keep your chin up and keep fighting. May God bless you and thank you so much for your efforts. Who knows, maybe God can help you start an NRA for us.

Posted by: Larry CPA at November 6, 2008 11:45 AM


Tell me Sonja, who is in hell then?

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:19 AM

I don't know what God you worship, but My God is a forgiving God. My God is a mericiful a God. My God does not spread hate. My God knows all my faults, my God died on the cross for my sins, my God ;oves me even when I don't love myself. My God washes all my tears. My God gives me strength when I am weak. My God has heard all of my prayers. My God wakes me in the morning with whisper in my ear. My God knows that no man is perfect. My God comforted me when my child was born still. My God told me to go on with life when my child died in a car accident. That is the God I serve, love and adore.

Man did not do those things for me. Government did not do those things for me.

Who is in hell? Those who bare false witness and turn their backs on God.

When Jesus died on the cross, who did he take with him to heaven? The murder or the thief?

Yllas, your sin is no greater than mine. Hitler's sin is no greater than G.W. Bush. We'er all on equal ground.

Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 11:48 AM


I think you are half right. Obama is a barbarian because he supports abortion.

The half you are wrong about is McCain is also a barbarian. Voters faced a tough choice. McCain’s Middle East policy would have resulted in war with Iran and that might have become a World War. It would also have meant a dying economy. Republican economics have clearly failed because the supply side model doesn’t work. There is also the question of his ability to outlaw abortion. He said two weeks ago he would not make opposition to Roe a litmus test for the court. Even if he did I doubt he could get prolifers confirmed by the senate.

As long as most Americans support abortion the court will not overturn Roe. For voters the choice was between a big war and economic collapse or a remote possibility of outlawing abortion.

As far as your comment that America is not a Christian nation that is something I have been saying for many years. There are affiliate Christians, meaning they call themselves Christians, but seldom attend. They are hypocrites. An excellent example is the current president. He tells everyone he is a Christian, but he seldom attends and he does not base his policies on Christian ideas. There are associate Christians, they attend but do not live Christian lives. Devout Christians take their faith seriously. Most Americans are affiliate Christians because they don’t attend and they don’t live Christian lives. Christianity has very little influence in American politics or culture.

I really think the Republican Party plays Christians for suckers. It tells us to vote for them and they will outlaw abortion. Reagan and both Bushes said that, but still it is legal. I think they have no intention of outlawing it. They want to play the issue as long as they can to get our votes. In the meantime they pursue terrible economic policies that steal from workers and the poor to give to the wealthy and they start wars without justification. They think we are stupid.

This election was not about abortion. It was about the economy and the war. If it had been about abortion the outcome would have been worse. Lots of Republicans voters openly say they oppose overturning Roe and would vote for Democrats if they thought a Republican president was about to outlaw abortion.

I voted for the Green Party. I don’t agree with their platform, but I did it as a protest vote. I thought both candidates were totally unacceptable.

Posted by: RickNev at November 6, 2008 11:51 AM


Quite the contrary, John S. (11:38 a.m.). "Conception certificates" are quite unnecessary. Most civil governments are practical enough to enact laws that are enforceable. So to prevent contraceptives--and I don't know that Jill is arguing that the government has the authority to enact prohibitive legislation on the same--the civil government could fine pharmacies that carried the same. Contraceptives just get added to the list of illegal drugs, I suppose.

Again, I don't think Jill was arguing in favour of legislation to prevent the dispensing of contraceptives. I think she was saying that churches need to do a better job of educating about human sexuality and reproduction, at least regarding contraception.

Also, for induced abortion, the government can shut down abortion clinics and fine or (if necessary, perhaps, even jail) pharmacists who dispense antifacients (which actually kill the embryo) for people and not for dogs or cats.

In the end, John S., I don't care about changeable political "rights." I care about the unchangeable, sovereign God and what He has said. And if I'm in the minority, so be it. Noah was very much in the minority, the only God-fearing man (household head) alive.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 11:52 AM


Hal:

This is not a dark day because a black (flesh) man was elected this was a dark day because a black (spirit) man was elected. In fact, his election was a betrayal to "The Dream".

Actually, Alan Keyes would have been a much better choice, however, the state of Illinois rejected that godly black man when they chose an ungodly black man, one Barack Obama. Can't any of you see what God is doing here? You think Jill being from Illinois is an accident? It is said that the saints will judge the world. God is making the case, so that none of you rabid pro-aborts who have refused God's warnings will have any excuse when your judgement is pronounced. For you will have billios of witnesses against you who stood for life and warned you in love. You should all be terrifed to your cores.

My, my. What is little Hal so pissed about? That I called the election of Barack Obama the darkest day in American history, or that the gay agendas were totally obliterated on November 4 in three separate states where Barack Obama won or at the realization that you really don't have a clue about all this stuff? Why are you so surprised Hal? Do you still believe that God doesn't exist? God is in control Hal, and this is evidence of it.

Your post implies that you are above contempt. By what such magic do you make such a claim? That your guy won? That you chose to so nobley and manly extterminate your first two children by abortion? Sinking sand my friend, sinking sand, a house of cards, a house of cards.

However, I did notice you're gloating again and filled with pride, arrogance and confidence. Don't. The chaos and destruction of an Obama administration will soon enough be evident to everyone, even you. And it won't discriminate, it will affect us all.

However, even with all the destruction before you, I already know that in your mind it will always be someone's else's fault and never your own. It's the same mindset that can justify, using one's circumstances, the killing of innocent children instead of taking personal responsibilty by accepting the consequences of one's own actions. I am not surprised that you are an attorney, trained as all attorneys are, to obfuscate, to twist, to lie and to live by this very oath...."the end always justifies the means".

The same spirit in America that allowed OJ to beat a murder wrap is the same spirit that got Obama elected. The spirit of racial victimization that Democrats prey on to retain power.

You see, Hal, God is not mocked and He will answer this apart from an Obama massive heart transplant. This is inexorable and none of your foot stomping, spoiled brat, pro-abort, whining ways will change this.

Hal, I will probably die for taking a stand against abortion and for life and so be it for I know in Whom I believe and in Whom I have placed my eternal destiny.

And in reality Hal, I would never exchange a temporary victory here on earth for an eternal victory in Heaven.

The blood of the martyrs cries out under the altar of God and He will answer, He will answer.

And this to you Sammie:

You keep whatever perversion you do behind closed doors away from my kids. You want to destroy yourself, go ahead. I will oppose all of your attempts at taking any one of mine to hell with you.

Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 11:53 AM


Jill

I agree with you and yes he is barbaric. He speaks of compassion but he only has compassion for those who will blindly follow him and do what he wants. I too am stunned by the the complacency of so many Christians. It is true this nation is no longer a Christian nation, it hasn't been for a while. How can we say God bless America when we have committed so many atrocities.

Obama played on people's weaknesses and fears-MONEY or the lack of it. People didn't vote for him because of his expereince or character but because they believed all of his empty promises. His followers have such unrealistic expectations of him that I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for them. They also voted for him because he's African American and somehow having a black president would redeem this country. America has chosen her king and now it's time to face the consequences, my hope and prayer is that this will wake up the church here.

Posted by: Starla at November 6, 2008 11:55 AM


I am sitting here reading your article, and I am crying. I cannot believe so many people who call themselves Catholic would vote for such a person as Obama. People are more concerned with money than the fact that children are dying everyday in the womb. And I am afraid of the direction this country is headed.

I guess all we can do is pray for an end to this madness.

Posted by: Mary D. at November 6, 2008 11:41 AM

You can blame Sean Hannity for that Mary.

His rant to Father Euteneuer was his cafeteria Catholicism being exposed to millions of Catholics who then said in their mind; well if Sean can be a contraceptive conservative Catholic I can vote my ill formed Catholic conscience for the O man.

Or, job security is first, and not being able to not have sex on demand without the fear of creating another conservative Catholic, who are against the evil pro abortionist, is really less important then my personal pleasure.

And if one is wise and just, one should turn off Hannity and watch him become more desperate for rating until he becomes a liberal in search of a paycheck.

Same with the Billo.

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 11:58 AM


Who is in hell? Those who bare false witness and turn their backs on God

Yllas, your sin is no greater than mine. Hitler's sin is no greater than G.W. Bush. We'er all on equal ground.

Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 11:48 AM

Ah, the God of moral equivalence. Which is why secularism was to take over justice issues on this Earth and actually take your moral equivalence, murdering God, away from loons like you as a defence in a secular court.

And Judge, what difference is it to the murdering God, if millions are murdered, or that I murdered one innocent life in the womb for my murdering God?

And the judge realizes the depth of your depravity for life in defending your mass murdering God and imitating his logic against humanity once again.
Guilty, of allowing mass murder as being equal to chicken stealing again.

And speaking of chicken stealing without repentance for chicken stealing, as is the mass murders of millions of innocent lifes, via abortion, and have no repentance, does that make me go to hell while those that murdered millions of your life hating God without repentance mean there in your Heaven celebrating in a bath of creation blood Sonja?

For you Sonja, all are in Heaven and your reigning in a Heaven with a God that is a murderer from the beginning. Well, except those who bare false witness are in Hell.. What a joke. Defending your murdering God comes down to the defence of those "that bear false witness". A appeal to the authority of who is a true defender of your murdering God. You are Sonja, your the true witness for the murdering God you worship in a festival of creation blood.

Your God is a murderer from the beginning and you can't deny that fact.

But tell me, what are you going to say to those aborted creations of your murdering God in that blood bath Heaven your going to, Sonja?

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 12:24 PM


Quite the contrary, John S. (11:38 a.m.). "Conception certificates" are quite unnecessary. Most civil governments are practical enough to enact laws that are enforceable. So to prevent contraceptives--and I don't know that Jill is arguing that the government has the authority to enact prohibitive legislation on the same--the civil government could fine pharmacies that carried the same. Contraceptives just get added to the list of illegal drugs, I suppose.
Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 11:52 AM

-Whoa wait. This blog now supports banning contraception as well now?? Seriously someone tell me how banning contraception is a remotely rational benefit to EITHER side of the abortion debate? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: Danielle at November 6, 2008 12:30 PM


Hisman said:
And this to you Sammie:

You keep whatever perversion you do behind closed doors away from my kids. You want to destroy yourself, go ahead. I will oppose all of your attempts at taking any one of mine to hell with you.

Oh my gosh, I am laughing so hard right now. I've been married and monogamous for the past 17 years. Because this is what my husband and I want, not because your bible tells us so. If you consider this a perversion I'm quite sad for you. And if you think I'm going to hell because of it, well, I think there will be a lot of us there!

My sex life is pretty tame, not that it's any of your business, but don't worry, your kids aren't invited. I have no desire to take them to hell or the mall or anywhere else.

Oh my, I'm still laughing.....

Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 12:33 PM


You keep whatever perversion you do behind closed doors away from my kids
Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 12:33 PM


Do you have sex in front of your children, or do you keep it behind closed doors, being a hypocrite towards yourself and your husband knowing that sex is from God?

Why do you hide your acts of love from your children, Sammie?

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 12:38 PM


"His rant to Father Euteneuer was his cafeteria Catholicism being exposed to millions of Catholics who then said in their mind; well if Sean can be a contraceptive conservative Catholic I can vote my ill formed Catholic conscience for the O man."

Very true, yllas. I lost all respect for Sean after that. He was pulling out lines like "Judge not lest ye be judged, Father." "Do you know anything about me? Did you know I studied latin?" When it comes down to it, he just *happens" to agree with the church on most things but the fact is that Sean is his own God. He decides what is right and wrong.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 12:40 PM


Jon, I am not a Christian, nor am I a secular humanist. If you must know, I am of Indian descent and was raised Hindu by somewhat non-religious parents. My hickname here is a kind of Americanized version of my Indian name.

I respect that you have a different religion and beliefs than I do and that you have the right to hold those beliefs. I just ask the same of you, though I get the feeling that would not be possible.

Have a good day.

Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 12:41 PM


Jill,

Excellent article. I have not had time to read all comments here so forgive me if I repeat prior comments.

I believe the US Bishops were not CLEAR enough in explaining the strict guidelines on abortion. Catholics still believe in the misinterpretations of the past that they thought allowed them to pick and choose the issues most important to them.

The ONLY exception to the rule (that one should vote for the pro-lifer who will do the least harm to the pro-life movement) would be a candidate who claimed to be pro-life but ALSO advocated a GREAT EVIL such as the eradication of a whole race. Obviously this pro-life candidate would not be worthy of a pro-lifer's vote.

Unless every church proclaims the sinfulness of voting for an abortion candidate or working in the area of abortion, the message will not hit home. I would suggest that priests and ministers commit one Sunday homily each month to the condemnation of abortion.

The support of Catholics for abortion in this election may have made the difference for Obama. Pro-choice candidates will be held responsible fortheir own votes and also the votes of friends and family who were influenced by their position. For many, I believe it was arrogance that influenced them to defy the church's teachings. Priests have strongly suggested that the Catholics who voted for Obama knowing his pro-abortion stance should go to the sacrament of Confession immediately to confess their sin. Lord have mercy on those who have voted ignorant of Obama's views. May we learn humility in following the teachings of Jesus, the virtue which influences all other choices we make.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 12:41 PM


"For 35 years, the pro-life movement has been doing its best. We educate. We help mothers in crisis pregnancies. We stand along streets with our signs. We try to elect solid pro-life public officials and defeat dastardly pro-aborts. We introduce pro-life legislation and thwart anti-life bills. We go so far as to stand on sidewalks by abortion mill doors begging mothers to reconsider in a last-ditch effort."

Yes, and once they are born, you turn your back on the children, mothers and families. Hypocrite.

Posted by: Thinker at November 6, 2008 12:42 PM


Jon:

It is ironic that you would bring up Noah with South Park's treatment of that sort of thinking last night!

Anyway, if you want to live in a theocracy, try Iran. Meanwhile we are a democratic republic with a charter document called the Constitution and a Supreme Court that has said that contracption (Griswold) and pre-viability abortion (Roe) are protected by it. Let freedom ring!

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 12:45 PM


You keep whatever perversion you do behind closed doors away from my kids
Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 12:33 PM

You are very misleading, yllas. That was a quote from hisman, not me. He said that, I did not.

Perhaps his family has such an open door policy. Mine does not.

Do you have sex in front of your children, yllas?

Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 12:45 PM


Danielle, read carefully. Go back to my comment at 11:52 a.m. Next, go back to John S.'s comment at 11:38 a.m. Then, go back to my comment at 11:22 a.m. Finally, go back to John S.'s comment at 10:55 a.m.

John S. seemed to think, as you do, that Jill is out to get contraceptives banned. I don't think she is. She wants the church to do a better job of educating about the evil of contraceptives.

Christians do not trust the state to supply all their needs. They trust God. There are some things that the state can do and should do. It must stay within its sphere of authority.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 12:45 PM


But tell me, what are you going to say to those aborted creations of your murdering God in that blood bath Heaven your going to, Sonja?


Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 12:24 PM

Well Yllas,
I would tell them, "God is good all the time and all the time God is good". But, because they are in heaven they already know that to be true.

And speaking in my flesh - those who have aborted life are no more of a sinner than the Catholic priests molesting boys. If you are Catholic, have you turn from your church?

Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 12:47 PM


Sammie said, "I respect that you have a different religion and beliefs than I do and that you have the right to hold those beliefs. I just ask the same of you, though I get the feeling that would not be possible."

Hinduism is a religion that accepts contradiction. Christianity doesn't.

The biggest contradiction possible in God's world is sin. Induced abortion is clearly a sin. Christians reject it.

But Christians will accept an unwanted baby. They try to prevent its murder. Do you?

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 12:51 PM


Thanks you for giving your life to our Lord, Fr. Greg. And thank you so much for preaching against contraception in the pulpit. In 28 years, I have NEVER ONCE heard a homily (in person) against contraception. It is shameful. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 7:47 AM

I don't think I ever have either. I heard a few about fornication and living together but not specifically about the evil of contraception. This maybe will change with the younger more conservative priests who are strongly prolife.

Janet: I have to disagree with you here. I think the US bishops were quite clear on the fact that Catholics cannot vote for proabortion candidates. The fact is that these so called "Catholics" are not really Catholics.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 12:53 PM


You know, I haven't gotten off the legalities of this, and really shouldn't, but this idea that "induced abortion is CLEARLY a sin" where does it come from? Abortion is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, even in Leviticus, where EVERYTHING is prohibited, no shrimp, no mixing types of fabrics, it's quite a list, but nothing on abortion. So spare me the sermonizing...

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 12:57 PM


Thinker you are wrong


I just donated two huge packages of diapers at a candlelight vigil to end the 40 days for Life. These diapers will be donated to various places, including a Crisis Pregnancy Center.

I've donated baby formula. I've donated infant car seat head rests.

And I pray for the mothers. Sometimes these mothers receive additional and much needed financial support -- to fix their cars or to pay for rent. We don't abandon them.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 6, 2008 12:59 PM


John S. 12:45, I don't think you know what a theocracy is. The Old Testament nation of Israel was the only valid theocracy. God's people is now the Church. The Church is much bigger than any one nation.

The United States were not intended to be a theocracy. From my comment to you at 11:22 a.m.--the part addressed to Sammie--you can know that I am all in favour of the American Constitution. Please don't misunderstand me.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 1:00 PM


JohnS, if God calls children a blessing, what do you think a rejection of God's blessing is? And what do you think God meant when he said "thou shalt not kill"?

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 1:01 PM


Jon:

Well good, we are in agreement that the US is not to be a theocracy and you accept the Constitution.

Bethany:

"thou shall not kill" obivously doesn't mean "kill" how we'd read it in English, or any war would be wrong. Also in the OT God tells the Hebrews to kill a LOT of people along the way. It's really "thou shall not murder" and since abortion was NOT considered murder in most contemporanious ancient societies you would think that God would have made a point to draw attention to that.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 1:07 PM


Your vitriolic statements are are dishonest and designed to create opposition to Obama using false information. You are a liar.

Conservatives like yourself pay lip service to "freedom and individual rights", and then try to take them away via social engineering programs, government spying, the police state and the drug war. Conservatives are hypocrites. You have no idea what it means to have freedom and rights.

America is a nation with freedom of (and freedom from) religion. It is NOT a christian nation.

Posted by: Vapor Genie at November 6, 2008 1:11 PM


Vapor, "Create opposition"? Where have you been?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 6, 2008 1:12 PM


John S. said, Abortion is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, even in Leviticus, where EVERYTHING is prohibited, no shrimp, no mixing types of fabrics, it's quite a list, but nothing on abortion. So spare me the sermonizing...

Spare us the lies, John S., or your ignorance if they were not intentional. If you read the Old Testament, you will quickly see that Israelite children were always wanted. Induced abortion was unheard of. Even the harlots who agreed to eat each other's children during the famine--to the horror of the ungodly Israelite king, who tore his clothes and dressed in sackcloth--were extremely loathe to. They ate the one harlot's child, but when the other mother's turn came, she refused to kill hers.

Furthermore, technology was not developed to the extent that it was today. The Greeks apparently used a certain herb as an abortifacient, but the Jews probably were unaware of it or killed the dealers (as witches, my guess). Anyway, as detailed above, the Jews wouldn't have wanted it. Pharaoh didn't command to have Israelite women abort if the fetus was male. Nobody knew whether the fetus was male or female; there was no ultrasound. Far easier to do infanticide.

The Bible does prohibit induced abortion. You need not go any farther than Genesis 9 in the Bible. We may kill animals, but we may not kill the creatures made in God's image, i.e. we may not kill each other.

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. (Ex. 21:22-25, New International Version)

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 1:13 PM


I believe your article to be true. I am 62 and my husband is 69. If you would have told either of us that the United States would be accepting abortion as it does 50 years ago we would not have believed you.

Many of the ministers condone it and don't even bring up the subject anymore in church.

We have belonged to Right to Life for many years and the past few years as we are retired have given money as we could.

It is not just the young. It is the old people who will have their 'plug pulled' also. I have sent your article to four ministers that we know.

Posted by: Sheryl P. at November 6, 2008 1:15 PM


God love you, Sheryl P.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 1:17 PM


We are all accountable to God for what we know is right and wrong. A Christian has a sacred duty to warn the wicked about their sin and God's inevitable judgement. But it is an error to think that the spiritually dead have the capacity to respond to moral reasoning in their carnal flesh. We have to make sure they know that they do not know God.

I'm talking about those people who claim to be Christians, but clearly are not. It is not our job to condemn those people; condemnation is God's job, and He will do it when He is ready. But we must make crystal clear that we cannot accept them as Christians while they act, and think, and vote, worse than pagans.

Unless and until we have the moral capacity to reject phony Christians as Christians, we will not be doing our own duty as Christians.

I've had to tell my own sister that I do not accept her as a Christian. I told her to her face that she could not know God and think that snuffing out a baby's life for convenience was acceptable.

We are not speaking any more, but I consider that a good thing, not a bad thing.

Every Christian that really fears God must do the same in their own lives. Otherwise, our confession is balony, and we are plastic bananas.

I don't know what effect we can have in this lost world, but I don't care, really. I only care that God's truth is vindicated, and that I am on the right side of His truth.

Posted by: JSol at November 6, 2008 1:18 PM


Patricia @ 12:53,

Janet: I have to disagree with you here. I think the US bishops were quite clear on the fact that Catholics cannot vote for proabortion candidates. The fact is that these so called "Catholics" are not really Catholics.

I didn't phrase that correctly. What I should have said is that IMO, the Bishops' messages were not concise enough for their messages to have influenced the average Catholic. I would bet that many Catholics who received the full-page letters did not take the time to read them. It would take five minutes to read (sarcasm alert).

The non church-going Catholics most likely never saw the USCCB letter - unless pastors mailed them to each household. Come to think of it, I think my pastor did mail the USCCB letter to registered parishoner household. Thank you, Father! Does that make more sense?

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 1:26 PM


Jon:

Abortion is an ancient practice, the Persians, Greeks, and Romans all did it. The OT and Paul in the NT consistently made a point to contrast Jewish/Christian practices from forbidden pagan ones. CERTAINLY somewhere along the line if abortion was forbidden it would have been mentioned. It was not. The Talmud specifically allowed abortion for the first 40 days of pregnancy and then had limitations on abortions, but went to great lenghts to point out that until the baby was born, it was not a "person" and abortion was not "murder."

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 1:28 PM


Chris,
I agree, it is very encouraging to see new pro-life commenters here. Please stick around!

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 1:31 PM


JohnS,

Remember that the technology and knowledge of science which allows us to know when life begins was not available at the time of the Old Testament. They did not understand fetal development as we do now.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 1:35 PM


Very true, yllas. I lost all respect for Sean after that. He was pulling out lines like "Judge not lest ye be judged, Father." "Do you know anything about me? Did you know I studied latin?" When it comes down to it, he just *happens" to agree with the church on most things but the fact is that Sean is his own God. He decides what is right and wrong.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 12:40 PM

And it's time to reward that self made Catholic with more people turning him off until he pleads and crys out:, My Self, My self, why have you abandoned me?

And the answer? Because you abandoned your faith for all to see, and can have yourself to speak Latin to more often since your off the air, Sean.

The worst example of a Republican conservative is one that demands his money not be distributed to the less fortunate, while demanding more depravity to the masses.

Another words, opiates to the people and keep your hands off my money.

Which is what the political parties have been doing since Reagan.

This election will make it more clear that the con game of the so called conservative Repubs, will either deliever on moral issues or disappear into being the permanent minority party in American politics.

To a certain degree, that many have voted against their financial interest by voting Repuplican, and have received nothing in return, has come home to roost in this election for the Hannity Republicans.


The Dems caught on to this basic fact and ran pro life, in name only congressman, and gained seats in 2006. Quite smart of them. But, when any vote comes up in the National Congress that demands a pro life vote(FOCA), the phony pro life Democrat will be gone, and a Republican with no actual commitment to being pro life will take his place.

Vice is a hard thing to give up, which is what is being argued here daily, and at the level of death being a sacrifice for that vice. The revenge of vice is accepting it, till it gets enough people to realize what they have done for a moment of pleasure.

Sometimes generations must pass until the wide acceptance of their own sacrifice to pleasure becomes impossible to deny any longer.

From the French Revolution to the modern blood bath revolutions of the 20th century, all were based on removing a vice from their civilization.

Let them eat cake. Rasputin is the lover of.....

Communism is a appeal to removing the vice of greed, by a appeal to envy, that went beserk. The O man has done masterfully in his appeal to the vice of abortion, and at the same time appealing to the removal of the perceived vice of greed.


Their success(abortion) will be their downfall eventually. Everyone will have had a moment of murder by abortion, and the vice fades from it's own demand upon the person knowing it just wasn't worth it. Or the children of those addicted parents of vice, and "seeing" the vice of their parent, reject the penality they payed by their parent's demand for their vice.

And they do pay a price.



Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 1:38 PM


I gotta get some work done...

Good luck to you guys, I just think that, going back to my original comment, that there's a libertarian sentiment in the country and it's not going away any time soon.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 1:38 PM


I gotta get some work done...

Good luck to you guys, I just think that, going back to my original comment, that there's a libertarian sentiment in the country and it's not going away any time soon.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 1:38 PM


JSol,

"we are plastic bananas"

That's a curious phrase! What's the origin? :-)

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 1:39 PM


Bethany:
"thou shall not kill" obviously doesn't mean "kill" how we'd read it in English, or any war would be wrong. Also in the OT God tells the Hebrews to kill a LOT of people along the way. It's really "thou shall not murder" and since abortion was NOT considered murder in most contemporanious ancient societies you would think that God would have made a point to draw attention to that.

Jon, killing an innocent person who has done no wrong to deserve it is indeed murder. Murder is killing another human being without "just cause or reason to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another".

Click the link below.
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessingtwo.jpg

That is a picture of my baby who died at about 6 weeks after conception. How can it be denied that this is a human being? Do you see human fingers? Toes? Eyes? The beginnings of ears? My baby already had a tongue by then as well although you can't see it in the picture.

You can't convince me that the unborn aren't human, that killing them isn't murder, when the truth is so clear.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 1:40 PM


Abortion is an ancient practice, the Persians, Greeks, and Romans all did it. The OT and Paul in the NT consistently made a point to contrast Jewish/Christian practices from forbidden pagan ones. CERTAINLY somewhere along the line if abortion was forbidden it would have been mentioned. It was not. The Talmud specifically allowed abortion for the first 40 days of pregnancy and then had limitations on abortions, but went to great lenghts to point out that until the baby was born, it was not a "person" and abortion was not "murder."

Pedophilia wasn't specifically mentioned either. Is pedophilia a sin or not, John S?

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 1:43 PM


yllas @ 1:38,
Excellent post. I have to go, but have a good day. God bless you.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 1:45 PM


" And it's time to reward that self made Catholic with more people turning him off until he pleads and crys out:, My Self, My self, why have you abandoned me?

And the answer? Because you abandoned your faith for all to see, and can have yourself to speak Latin to more often since your off the air, Sean."

LOL, yllas.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 1:46 PM


Janet: do you think that the Catholic Bishops have any influence on how a US Catholic conducts his/her life today? I am asking you in all seriousness.

Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 1:47 PM


Bethany:

The OT forbids fornication, incest, and male homosexuality. If you can squeeze around all of those to justify pedophilia, you have a career in criminal defense work.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 1:51 PM


Abortion is an ancient practice, the Persians, Greeks, and Romans all did it.

So is murder. What your appealing to is tradition, the tradition of allowing the killing of your own as a tradition.

And you might notice that those powers rose and fell and have never gotten back up to where they were as great world powers today.

What happen? The civilization ran away from the fact that death was demanded of them by their rulers from inside ad outside the family.

They simply gave up, ran away(see lost cities) and understood that killing your own for a ruler, or the ruler allowing you to murder your child is a giant devouring death machine.

Which was the point of Apocalyto.

No one conquers a culture that demands you murder your own for some physical reason demanded by logic and reason of the state/God's by ommision or commision. Or as you argue, Hey it's how we did it since our civilization began. They run away and wait for life to return to the civilization.

Russia being a modern example of trying to turn the corner on what they did to their culture/civilization, via legal murdering of your own, and now by trying to get their commrades to have more children.

What happen to Russia is what happen to the Greeks, Persians, Romans, only accelerated by mass communication of the propaganda of abortion is a right.

John S, another preacher of family nihilism first, and always.


Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 1:58 PM


Jon said:
Hinduism is a religion that accepts contradiction. Christianity doesn't.

The biggest contradiction possible in God's world is sin. Induced abortion is clearly a sin. Christians reject it.

But Christians will accept an unwanted baby. They try to prevent its murder. Do you?

As I mentioned in my previous post, I was not raised in a religious household. Just like the many who call themselves Jewish or Catholic because of their heritage, but do not observe their religions or attend services, I do not strictly adhere to the faith of my ancestors.

Sometimes I think of this as a shame, that I "lost out" on this part of my culture. More often, though, I look at it as a unique opportunity to "start fresh," and learn from those who follow differnt faiths. I read blogs like Jill Stanek's for that very purpose. Observing and reading the opinions of people from different religions has opened my eyes to so much.

I have always considered myself to be "pro-life." However, I am not always comfortable with the pro-life movement as a whole. Mostly because it is so strongly tied to Christianity, and anti-abortion proponents of other faiths seem to be excluded at best, attacked for not being Christian at worst. I am also turned off by the anti-contraception stance that many pro-lifers take.

And of course I would accept an unwanted baby, as well as try to prevent its murder.

Have a good day.

Posted by: Sammie at November 6, 2008 2:01 PM


Patricia at 1:47 PM,

Janet: do you think that the Catholic Bishops have any influence on how a US Catholic conducts his/her life today? I am asking you in all seriousness.

Good question.

I certainly can't speak for all Catholics. The Bishops usually speak out on the most important moral issues, such as war, abortion, etc... They also relay information coming from the Vatican on liturgical matters, etc. Traditional Catholics are interested in following the Church teachings, of course, and our U.S. Bishops try to speak to us in a language U.S. Catholics can relate to. We have some wonderful Bishops and Cardinals in the U.S. who are very loyal to the Magisterium and well-respected by U.S. Catholics. I don't know if that answers your question.

Posted by: Janet at November 6, 2008 2:01 PM


John S., I don't know about the Talmud as it isn't part of the Bible. I will have to take your word for it, and I don't know if I'm willing to.

Anyway, the Bible shows--and most of the Bible takes place before the Talmud came into existence--that Israelite babies were always wanted. Induced abortion was unheard of in Israel. It wasn't a question. (And I may add that induced abortion wasn't a question at the time that the American Constitution was written. It didn't happen on the scale that it can be performed today.)

Every God-fearing Israelite woman wanted to be the mother of the Messiah. God promised to Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall that from the woman, Eve, would come a seed (descendant) to crush the Enemy (Satan) and thus bring friendship once again with God. God reaffirmed that promise to Abraham and Israel (Jacob). He later revealed that the Messiah would come from Judah; later again, David.

Those Israelite women who were not of the tribe of Judah were very concerned to have an inheritance in Israel when the Messiah come. Read, for example, about the daughters of Zelophehad in Numbers 27:1-11.

Your idea that somehow the Israelites would want to kill some of their children is absurd. God's concern over and over with them was that they be His people, separate and holy from the surrounding Canaanite nations which He was annihilating through Israel. In fact, He specifically denounced to the Canaanite practice of offering their children to Molech (Lev. 18:21).

God said, "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin." Jer. 32:35

Remember again another pair of harlots, the ones who came to Solomon. Saying that one had rolled over onto a baby was thought in England, I heard, to be a way of evading the charge of infanticide (by suffocation). The harlots' contention, however, was not relieve themselves of a child but to keep the live child. I don't know whether the Persians, Greeks, and Romans practiced forced abortion, but I'm more sure that they practiced infanticide. Both forced abortion and infanticide display the same contempt for human life.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 2:02 PM


You miss my point yllas, and this REALLY is my last word for today. It's not just that the Greeks or Romans did something that made it right (they did a lot of bad stuff), but that it's typical in the Bible, often in the OT but sometimes in the NT as well, to contrast that BAD thing the pagans were doing (like child sacrifice or temple prostitutes) with what Jews/Christians should NOT do. And so IF abortion was murder and thus forbidden it would have been normal to have it mentioned...strange that it was not.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:03 PM


Actually John, conviction regarding abortion and the killing of an unborn is mentioned in Torah.

Before I reveal the verse, my question for you is - are you following the commandments, and if so, what don't you understand about "You shall not murder" ?

The unborn are undeniably human beings from conception on, and there are only 4 differences between them and us, size, level of development, environment and degree of dependency, none of which negates their moral agency.

We could argue either way, but shouldn't we both be working from what is knowable and visible first?


Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 2:14 PM


Sammie said, "I am not always comfortable with the pro-life movement as a whole. Mostly because it is so strongly tied to Christianity..."

Thank you, Sammie, for your genial comment. I want to address John S. here.

John, why do you think that Christianity has consistently been against induced abortion? Only the West, so heavily influenced by Christianity, seems to have the hang-ups that other civilizations never give a second thought to. And if you review the statements of leaders in the Church, you will realize that the Church has always been against induced abortion. (Yes, there were some who had confusion on the same. Augustine may have been one, and Aquinas another. But there are many, many more statements made by influential leaders and popes dating all the way back to the first or second centuries after the birth of Christ. I don't have them at my fingertips, but I could find them from a National Post article that I read a few months ago.)

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 2:15 PM


JohnS,

When Enron collapsed I think the secretaries should have been prosecuted, don't you? After all they worked for Enron. Aren't they just as culpable?

Your argument about pedophilia in the Catholic Church is just as weak. Those priest were acting OUTSIDE of Church teaching and Church law. Just as every employee who steals from a company. Should I quit my job because my boss embezzled money?

Never mind that an estimated .9% of priests are guilty while an estimated 10% of Protestant pastors are convicted. Should all Protestants leave their churches? They would have an even greater reason.

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 2:19 PM


Chris:

GRRRR! I really have to get back to work.

1. "Murder" implies a person. Under Talmudic tradition a pre-born baby was NOT.

2. I don't get your point. A puppy is different from us in terms of size, enviroment, etc. as well. So what?


Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:22 PM


Janet and Patricia,

I think the problem with the bishops is that they are preaching to the choir! LOL! Catholics that want to "feel good" about themselves don't listen to what a priest or bishop has to say.

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 2:22 PM


The OT forbids fornication, incest, and male homosexuality. If you can squeeze around all of those to justify pedophilia, you have a career in criminal defense work.

Hmm, well what about if a man marries a 6 year old girl who is unrelated. Where is the Biblical basis that this would be wrong?

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:23 PM


John S. said, "The OT forbids fornication, incest, and male homosexuality. If you can squeeze around all of those to justify pedophilia, you have a career in criminal defense work.

The Bible also forbids killing human beings (Gen. 9). We may kill animals, but they and we may not kill human beings. (Any creature that killed a human being was itself to be killed.) If you can jump that hurdle, then you're quite the scientist, and I'm sure the whole world will soon learn of your new discovery. If you try to jump the hurdle and fail, you deserve to lose your head (capital punishment). In fact, you already have lost your head.

To kill a human fetus is to kill a human being.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 2:25 PM


jon 2:02, Amen, amen, amen.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:25 PM


Jon:

I think certain segments of the Christian Church have tried to demonize sex and thus things like abortion and contracption that limits the consequences of sex are forbidden.

Kristen:

I didn't say anything about pedophile priests. I was responding to a question about whether I think the Bible prohibits pedophilia. I like the Catholic Church, as a whole I think it gets a bad rap. And I don't know your point about Enron. Secretaries obviously didn't have the power to do the fraudulent stuff the execs did...

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:27 PM


Jon:

"To kill a human fetus is to kill a human being." I think that's the question being debated and not a given.

Support it...

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:32 PM


Sorry JohnS,

It was Sonja who said we should turn away from the Church because of the pedophilia scandal. My point though was that you can't punish and entire organization for the faults of a few.

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 2:34 PM


"To kill a human fetus is to kill a human being." I think that's the question being debated and not a given.

Really? You're debating that the human fetus is a human being? Are you kidding?

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:34 PM


I am sad. Sad for all Christians who hate more than they love. Who do not seek understanding and do not understand all sins are equal and there is only one judge. I can not speak of Gods plan I can not speak for who Jesus would vote for..That is blasphamy. I pray for all people who hate anyone for any reason. The strength of Christ is forgivnes Hate is the strength of the Devil. There is only one Judge. All of you have Judged a man as if you speak for God. Sad Very sad!

Posted by: Mell at November 6, 2008 2:35 PM


Sorry, that should read "you're arguing against the idea that the fetus is a human being"

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:35 PM


JohnS,

"I think that's the question being debated and not a given.

Support it..."

Here ya go.

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote). ... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual." (Carlson, Bruce M., Patten's Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p.3.)


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote." [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zygtos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being." [Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"Although human life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. ... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity." (O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology and Teratology, 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29).


"the term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation and fertilization ... The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life." (J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers, pages 17 and 23.)


"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being." [Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus." (Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146.


"every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." (E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant (3rd Edition). Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.)


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life." [Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 2:36 PM


John S., I don't know if you missed it, but please see my 1:40 PM post.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:36 PM


I am sad. Sad for all Christians who hate more than they love. Who do not seek understanding and do not understand all sins are equal and there is only one judge. I can not speak of Gods plan I can not speak for who Jesus would vote for..That is blasphamy. I pray for all people who hate anyone for any reason. The strength of Christ is forgivnes Hate is the strength of the Devil. There is only one Judge. All of you have Judged a man as if you speak for God. Sad Very sad!

Who do you see hating someone?

One can't be forgiven unless they are first sorry.

Judging actions is not the same as judging a person.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:39 PM


Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 2:36 PM

Bobby, while I'm sure you are a wonderful husband it's a little sad you didn't become a priest. Have you thought about becoming a deacon at some point?

Posted by: Kristen at November 6, 2008 2:39 PM


Bethany:

Uhh...yeah. As I said before, in the ancient Jewish tradition the fetus was not considered a person until birth. More to the point, English common law and American constitutional law does not consider a baby a person until they are born. English common law did not prohibit abortion until the fetus was viable. That is what Roe did by the way....

So...what you got?

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:42 PM


By the way, Mell, do you realize that you are judging us Christians for our supposed "hate", when that sin, according to you, is equal to all other sins? Therefore, do you think that perhaps you are being hypocritical, judging us for our perceived sins, while you condemn us for judging the act of abortion.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:44 PM


Well Yllas,
I would tell them, "God is good all the time and all the time God is good". But, because they are in heaven they already know that to be true.

And speaking in my flesh - those who have aborted life are no more of a sinner than the Catholic priests molesting boys. If you are Catholic, have you turn from your church?

Posted by: Sonja at November 6, 2008 12:47 PM

More moral lunacy from a person who worships a God of murder and allows the murdering God to have Sonja speak as a true witness for her murderering God.

Did God speak in your ear Sonja, or was it a revelation that God is speaking through you as you write in defence of the God that sends the murderer to Heaven after doing his will to murder his creation in the womb?

Now I know why no one admits to murder in a secular court from being propagandized by Sonja as a innocent child to the murderer God, and that God loves the unrepetant murderer of innocent life soo much, he allows the murder into his blood bath Heaven.

God is good all the time and all the time God is good", but not his creation that murders in his name via abortion.

Now, considering that one has a rational soul, which is the ability to think after death, and being the sacrifice(the baby) of that God that murdered me, to show me his "mercy and goodness", and that "God is good all the time and all the time God is good", I would know I have entered into a Heaven where murder is King.

O lord, hear my prayer, Your goodness is my being torn to pieces for your demand that murder be King in Heaven.

Oh Lord High Murderer of innocent blood, release me from your Heaven and allow me to worship another creator that is and was not so good too me all the time and for time eternal.


Have mercy on my eternity and send my unrepentant murderer to another eternalplace, so I may have the peace of my soul not being humiliated, torn to pieces, and dehumanized again in your blood bath Heaven.

Lord, she comes, She comes unrepentant to now tear my soul to pieces in a heavenly sacrifice to you God, the God of Sonja, the God of Sonja that makes no distinction between the murderer of me, your creation, and the unrepentant murderer that now approches my soul in your blood bath Heaven.

Release me from my hell of unrepentant murderers oh God of unrepentant Murder, release me to the otherside, where Lucifer reigns as a Light of knowing that murder is a unremovable stain on a soul without repentance and just punishment for my murder.

What a loon you are Sonja, spreading the word of the Murdering God and demanding that the murdered creation be told that the murderering God "is good all the time and all the time God is good".

Soo, what reward does your murderering God have in mind for the murderer of that creation in the womb Sonja? Being made into a archangel of death that comes to those innocent lifes being torn to pieces for your murderering God, Sonja?

And whispering into their soul, "God is good for you all the time and murder is good all the time".

The God of Sonja loves unrepentant murder. That is a fact.

Your another case of why people abandoned your God that is nothingmore then a unrepenant murderer from the Beginning, Sonja.

But, eventually you expose yourself as another cheap trick bringing up those evil priest and molestation.

Tell me Sonja, is a person recieveing pleasure really being molested? And since homosexuals are also secular teachers of children, care to mention them in your attempt to smear Catholics for your murderering God?

Now, get real close to the screen you bigot, and ask yourself to be honest with yourself one time in your bigoted life; Is homosexual sex wrong Sonja? Bet it ain't for you bigot Sonja. Is homosexual sex wrong in the laws of the Catholic church?

Now, since age is actually what was the guilty part of those priest was, since molestation is based on age, what age is homosexual sex ok with you, oh bigot, and worshiper of the Mudering God?

And why would you deny pleasure to anyone, at any age, anyway Sonja? Going to deny a ice cream cone to a six year old and deny that pleasure too?


Yep, the last refuge of a person eating their own vomit is appealing to the last acceptable prejudice allowed; Catholic bigotry.

We got your drift Sonja. Your losing the arguemnt and appeal to that Bigotry taught to you by that Muderering God's bible..

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 2:49 PM


Uhh...yeah. As I said before, in the ancient Jewish tradition the fetus was not considered a person until birth. More to the point, English common law and American constitutional law does not consider a baby a person until they are born. English common law did not prohibit abortion until the fetus was viable. That is what Roe did by the way....So...what you got?

Science.

By the way, take a look at Bobby's 2:36 post.
John S, You can't argue that the fetus isn't a human being without seeing ignorant. You can argue that it hasn't been given the right to personhood, but to argue that it isn't human is plain silly.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:51 PM


Yes Kristen, I have thought about becoming a Deacon. I still have a few years before I could theoretically begin studying for the permanent deaconate, so there is a lot of time to discern if I do have such a calling. I do want a large family, though, so I don't know... It would be very difficult to balance both. God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 2:51 PM


Bobby:

A tadpole is a potential frog...but it is not a frog.

A reasonable argument can be made that at the point of viability, when a baby could survive (albeit with lots of medical help) the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right to terminate (except for life/health issues). Prior to that though you're dealing with a potential human. It's got the genes no doubt...but it can't live on it's own. Roe adopted that position.

Anyway, from a legal point of view until it's born it's not a person. That has been the law forever.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:53 PM


*without "seeming" ignorant, not "seeing". My typing skills are lacking today.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:53 PM


John S. said, "I think certain segments of the Christian Church have tried to demonize sex and thus things like abortion and contracption that limits the consequences of sex are forbidden."

You sound confused, John. If the Christian Church tried to demonize sex, you would think that they would also try to limit the consequences of sex, not forbid those limitations.

The Bible clearly sets forth sex as a beautiful thing. You don't need to go farther than the third page in my Bible (Gen. 2:23-25). God had made all things in an orderly fashion, one day at a time. At the end of each day, God saw all that He had made. He said, "It is very good." He made the animals too, male and female, and He pronounced them "very good." But when God made Adam, He didn't immediately make Eve. Instead, He had Adam name the animals, for He wanted Adam to fulfill his mandate and, I think, to notice something.

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. Gen. 2:20

The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Gen 2:18

So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, He took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib He had taken out of the man, and He brought her to the man. Gen. 2:21-22

Adam woke up and felt pain in his side, next to his heart. He looked up and saw a beautiful creature, a suitable helper for him. And in the words of the famous palindrome, I like to think that he said, "Madam, I'm Adam. I'd like to get to know you. Let's talk!"

The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman,'
for she was taken out of man."

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. Gen. 2:23-25

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Gen. 1:28

God saw all that He had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was mornin--the sixth day. Gen. 1:31

Sex is good in marriage. Outside of marriage, it is evil.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 2:58 PM


"A tadpole is a potential frog...but it is not a frog."

No, tadpole is just a name for a stage of development for the frog. It has a frog nature the entire time. You confuse the accidents of something with its substance.

"A reasonable argument can be made that at the point of viability, when a baby could survive (albeit with lots of medical help) the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right to terminate (except for life/health issues). Prior to that though you're dealing with a potential human. It's got the genes no doubt...but it can't live on it's own. Roe adopted that position.

Anyway, from a legal point of view until it's born it's not a person. That has been the law forever."

Well of course! This is the debate; whether it's a person or not. Not whether it's human or not. You also mentioned to touch the other none question begging argument in favor of abortion which is bodily ownership of the mother. You said that the fetus is not human, which is something no one denies. It's whether it's a person or not. So you really need to be more careful when discussing the issues.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 6, 2008 3:00 PM


Jon:

Actually Adam and Eve don't have sex until they get kicked out of the Garden. But I think you make my point....

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:03 PM


A tadpole is a potential frog...but it is not a frog.

No, it is still a frog (within the frog species). It simply hasn't matured into a grown frog yet.

At what point does the tadpole 'become' a frog, John? When it is fully mature?

If we're using this frog analogy for people, wouldn't it follow that we would not be persons until we reach full maturity? That would mean my three children are still not people because they haven't hit puberty yet.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:03 PM


Actually Adam and Eve don't have sex until they get kicked out of the Garden.

Chapter and verse, please.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:05 PM


Bobby:

IF I kill a tadpole it will never become a frog. Even though it has the same genes as a frog. If I kill a catepillar it will never become a butterfly. BIOLOGY does not answer the question. It states facts...the law or religion or both applies those facts.

The quote was "Killing a human fetus is killing a human being." If that were true, all abortions would be murder. Since they are in fact legal, it cannot be true. Killing a human fetus is killing a human fetus.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:07 PM


Bethany:

Genesis 4:1

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:08 PM


John S. said, "[F]rom a legal point of view until it's born it's not a person. That has been the law forever."

Whose law forever? God's? No, from the beginning pages of the Bible we know that the human fetus is special, having been created in God's image. God's law says, "Thou shalt not kill." God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The law of the U.S. forever? Really? You might be right. The U.S. isn't very old.

What do you mean, anyway, by person? Women were not considered persons, either, but the law still prevented their being murdered. I'm not sure that poor people or slaves were considered persons either, but the law gave protection for them too. Didn't being a person merely mean that one could vote? America, after all, was supposed to be a limited democracy, a republic. So sad how things have changed.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:09 PM


1. "Murder" implies a person. Under Talmudic tradition a pre-born baby was NOT.

2. I don't get your point. A puppy is different from us in terms of size, enviroment, etc. as well. So what?

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:22 PM
----

Are you a person?
How would we know?
What's unique about you that makes you a person?

BTW - the Talmud wasn't assembled until after the temple was destroyed. So what's more important - the Scriptures or the Talmud?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 3:10 PM


Beth:

See my 2:53 post on when I think the human tadpole becomes a frog.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:11 PM


IF I kill a tadpole it will never become a frog.

No, John S., if you kill a tadpole, you killed a frog that wasn't fully matured.

The quote was "Killing a human fetus is killing a human being." If that were true, all abortions would be murder. Since they are in fact legal, it cannot be true. Killing a human fetus is killing a human fetus.

At what point would you say that a human fetus becomes a human being, John?

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:11 PM


Chris:

The Talmud is the best we got on how the early Jews interpreted the scriptures. Since the word "abortion" isn't in the scriptures we have to read into them.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:13 PM


John S, Genesis 4:1 mentions that Adam and his wife were intimate. It does not say they were never intimate while in Eden.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:14 PM


A tadpole is a baby frog. Ask a Grade 3 student.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:14 PM


See my 2:53 post on when I think the human tadpole becomes a frog.

You didn't say, John. You said that a tadpole is not a frog. You didn't say WHEN it becomes a frog.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:15 PM


JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:13 PM
---

You're forgetting the Septuagint - which is a valid translation.

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 3:15 PM


And, John S. and Bethany, Gen. 4:1 does not even say that Adam and Eve did not conceive Cain while still in the garden of Eden. It doesn't specify the chronology.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:16 PM


Jon:

The 14th Amendment (Section 1) reads: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So no it's not just about voting...

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:17 PM


Geez not to complain but how many arrows am I supposed to catch? :) You guys all make interesting points, I don't agree but I certainly respect your passion about this.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:18 PM


John S, I could use a break too. It has been nice debating with you, and I hope that you'll be back soon. :)

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 3:20 PM


JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:17 PM

How can a person be "born"?

Requires the person to experience that birth, doesn't it?

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 3:21 PM


Genesis 4:1 says, "Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain." I think the chronology there is pretty plain.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:21 PM


"A tadpole is a potential frog...but it is not a frog. A reasonable argument can be made that at the point of viability, when a baby could survive (albeit with lots of medical help) the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right to terminate (except for life/health issues). Prior to that though you're dealing with a potential human. It's got the genes no doubt...but it can't live on it's own. Roe adopted that position. Anyway, from a legal point of view until it's born it's not a person. That has been the law forever."
Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:53 PM

-Thank you for this post. I've tried to articulate the same sentiment here before, but always seem to fall short. Rational thought is so refreshing.

Posted by: Danielle at November 6, 2008 3:24 PM


Chris:

I would think so. That's why you get a "Certificate of Live Birth."

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:24 PM


JohnS,

I have to go - saving lives you know. Yeah, a bunch of those non-persons, who many moms see on ultrasounds.

I pray that when they grow up, they don't decide that you're a non-person in their eyes. Because historically, that's very cruel.

Ciao!

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 6, 2008 3:26 PM


Your Welcome Danielle!

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:26 PM


John S. said at 3:03 p.m., "Actually Adam and Eve don't have sex until they get kicked out of the Garden. But I think you make my point...."

No, I didn't (at 2:58 p.m.). You suggested at 2:27 p.m. that the Church (or parts of it) has demonized sex. You then illogically said that the Church forbids limiting sex. If sex were evil, you would think that the Church would try to limit it.

There are obvious limitations on sex, but they do not demonize sex. Quite the contrary, they help to make it special and desirable.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:27 PM


Bye Chris!

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:28 PM


Jon:

No I said the Church forbids limiting the consequences of sex.

See you later...

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 3:29 PM


John S. said, 'Genesis 4:1 says, "Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain." I think the chronology there is pretty plain.'

No, the chronology given doesn't indicate when Adam lay with Eve. It only says that he lay with her before she became pregnant. He may have lain with her to conceive Cain already while in the Garden of Eden. Or, as Bethany suggested, they might have been intimate but not conceived a child.

There's very little question that the Fall happened soon after Creation. Recall that God's concern was that Adam and Eve not eat from the tree of life. If they had been in the garden for some time already, they would most likely have eaten from it. And, really, how long do you think Adam would take to heed God's command to be fruitful and multiply, living as he did with the most beautiful woman that ever existed? For Eve really did have a perfect body.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:34 PM


You miss my point yllas, and this REALLY is my last word for today. It's not just that the Greeks or Romans did something that made it right (they did a lot of bad stuff), but that it's typical in the Bible, often in the OT but sometimes in the NT as well, to contrast that BAD thing the pagans were doing (like child sacrifice or temple prostitutes) with what Jews/Christians should NOT do. And so IF abortion was murder and thus forbidden it would have been normal to have it mentioned...strange that it was not.

Posted by: JohnS at November 6, 2008 2:03 PM

And you missed my point, any civilization that murders its own disappears from being able to be a great civilization and maintain their "great civilization."

The sacrifce to death, from and to a God, and a civilization based on death worship rulers/Gods, makes the people run away from the death machine.

You appealed to tradition that wasn't Christian, as Christ wasn't born.

But, you are now bring up the testament of the Jews and their witnessing of the actions of their God.

Now, they have been a minor nation ruled by great powers from Egypt, to their demise as a nation state under the great civilization of Rome.

That their God is based on being a murdering God of abortion?, by omission in their "bible",is why they have failed in any and all attempts at being great at all, in matters of "great civilizations".

They worship a God of death as surely as the Romans did, and Sonja too. When two such civilizations meet, they both appeal to the God of Murder to save them from the other's murdering God.

Numbers usually decided the winner, and those with less numbers lost. Or, the more faithful to the worship of their Muderering God by abortion, always loses in any battle of civilizations.

And so did the Jews lose their nation and wandered about for centuries, until returning to the phyisical place where they worship a God that allows the death of innocent life.

I do believe it is legal in the theocratic state of Israel to murder your own by abortion? Right John?

BTW dude, the catacombs in Rome are filled with names that mention their being thrown into the trash heap of Rome, by being born to pagans, and delivered to that trash heap to die.

They were picked up by Chrisrtian families and were saved from death by those families.

The names translated into "born in trash", "abandoned to die", or the most literal, I am Sh--. "Survivor of abortion". There was such names John, and they are ignored by your propagnada machine for abortion.

There are thousands of such names in the catacombs, and your being ignorant of such facts is from being a simple propagandist for abortion, appealing to your tradition of murdering innocent human life.

Give it up, dude, appealing to tradition is the last refuge of a propagandist.

But, since I'm no scholar of Judaic law, can you direct me to a Jewish founded orphange, that is as well known as Boy's Town John? Do any exist?

Three, two, one, comes the charges.

Posted by: yllas at November 6, 2008 3:36 PM


John S. said at 3:29 p.m., "No I said the Church forbids limiting the consequences of sex."

Exactly. And you said that immediately after you spoke of the Church's demonization of sex. The following is what you said at 2:27 p.m.:

I think certain segments of the Christian Church have tried to demonize sex and thus things like abortion and contracption that limits the consequences of sex are forbidden.

Again, if the Church was demonizing sex, you would think that they would try to limit the consequences of such an evil thing, rather than as you agree, forbid such limitations.

It is because sex is good that the Church forbids limiting the good consequences of sex by contraception. Actually, I don't think too many in the Church speak out against what some term natural family planning. Such planning does not require contraceptives but does limit the consequences of sex.

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 3:46 PM


John S., the Fourteenth Amendment was an amendment, which would seem to indicate that its content didn't hold true before the amendment was made. The Fourteenth Amendment was made in 1868, about 100 years after the Constitution.

You might still be right, but you'd have to further clarify the original meaning and effects of that word person. Did it mean more than the chance to vote? Wikipedia, s.v. "legal person," notes that "basic rights (like the rights to free speech and due process of law) do not necessarily follow from legal personhood."

Posted by: Jon at November 6, 2008 4:01 PM


Jill,

It is always healthy to become dis-illusioned. Operating under an illusion is dangerous.

America has been a post Christian culture for quite a while. The vestiges of the christian world view still persist in our society, but they have become meaningless traditions to most people.

Our national condition will not be changed by creating new legislation.

I have a chinese born friend who is a follower of Jesus. He met the LORD in the US. He is now a naturalized US citizen, but does business in China and travels there several times a year. He says the average Chinese are now exchanging gifts during what we know as the Christmas season, but they do not know why. They
ask what this custom is all about. So he tells them about Jesus.

In many ways american society still keeps many christian customs of, but does not understand why.

Now you know what it is like to live in a culture as a minority faith.

Thanksgiving is coming up. One of the few faith based holidays we have left that has not been de-christianized or materialized beyond recognition.

Do not let your well doing weary you.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at November 6, 2008 4:51 PM


'Thank you for this post. I've tried to articulate the same sentiment here before, but always seem to fall short. Rational thought is so refreshing.'

Posted by: Danielle at November 6, 2008 3:24 PM

Danielle,

It has been a few days but I wanted to acknowledge that 1) you answered my question abou the species of the embryo/fetus in a pregnant womans uterus. And 2) You were forthright when you said the pregnant womens right to physical autonomy trumped the human embryo/fetus' right to life.

No other pro-choice person would answer the question. They insulted me for asking or made no reply.

I hope and pray your understanding will continue to be refeshed by rational thinking. The Truth and truth really do liberate us.

yor bro ken

Posted by: kbhvac at November 6, 2008 5:07 PM


Jill can be forgiven if she seems over the top by calling him barbaric. She looked him in the eye and told him about her first hand experience holding babies born that were still breathing and not be allowed to give medical treatment and she saw first hand is callous response. It was barbaric.

Posted by: maria at November 6, 2008 5:43 PM


I am sad. Sad for all Christians who hate more than they love. Who do not seek understanding and do not understand all sins are equal and there is only one judge. I can not speak of Gods plan I can not speak for who Jesus would vote for..That is blasphamy. I pray for all people who hate anyone for any reason. The strength of Christ is forgivnes Hate is the strength of the Devil. There is only one Judge. All of you have Judged a man as if you speak for God. Sad Very sad!

Who do you see hating someone?

One can't be forgiven unless they are first sorry.

Judging actions is not the same as judging a person.

Posted by: Bethany at November 6, 2008 2:39 PM
_______________________

Bethany:

This poster obviously does't know what agape love is nor does she know that there is an unforgivable sin. So, this person has just spoken a heresy and misled people.

I think she is equating agape love with fileo and eros love, the touchy feely type, not the doing what's best for the other person, God type love. You know, the love that tells people that their behavior is contrary to scripture and keeps on doing this despite the opposition, the real hatred, the persecution and the rebukes that always follow.

Tell me this: How nice is it for someone to say, "repent or you will perish". Does this poster have any clue who said this and does this offend her?

Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 7:03 PM


Hey Hal, if you're still around, I have news for you. I can't WAIT for Obama's presidency to start. Why? Because Barry is going to fall flat on his face, and I'm going to laugh my butt off at him. I hope you come back in four, or perhaps, if you're lucky, eight years, when the Democrats get thrown out of office again as the pendulum swings back the other way.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 6, 2008 10:41 PM


Good column, as usual, Jill.

Posted by: Matt C. Abbott at November 7, 2008 1:24 AM


Hisman, good point. A lot of people seem to have ths misconception that Christians are never supposed to speak out against wrongdoings. The Bible does not support this idea at all. They take that "judge not" verse in a totally different context than it was meant to be taken.

Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

Posted by: Bethany at November 7, 2008 6:49 AM


As as pro-choice advocate, your article made me happier than any other response to the election I've read so far.

I too am going to print and frame it.
And most likely email it to every other prochoicer I know, and show them why you all are not anything we have to worry about. If they doubt it, the can browse the comments and be reassured. Again.

Thank you all!

Posted by: AshleyK at November 7, 2008 6:18 PM


Ashley K, any publicity is good publicity. ;-)

The more people that read Jill's article and learn something about Obama's stance on abortion and infanticide, the better. So on behalf of Jill, thank you for spreading the word.

Posted by: Bethany at November 7, 2008 11:15 PM


God, this is all so old. I probably won't comment on an Obama post for a while. All I hear nowadays is:

"OMG THE RAPTURE IS COMING THIS IS THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE" (props to South Park last night for addressing that lol)

"Um...I think you are overreacting."

"I HATE PRO-LIFERS!"

"You just voted for Hitler/antichrist/Stalin, congratulations!"
(Interesting I've heard him being compared to both a Fascist and a Communist--completely separate principles, get em straight!)

I mean, seriously guys. Don't you get tired of this too? Have fun.

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 6, 2008 11:18 AM

+++


It shows you how nuts people can be.

Posted by: Heather at November 7, 2008 11:20 PM


A psalm of David. I sing of love and justice; to you, LORD, I sing praise. I follow the way of integrity; when will you come to me? I act with integrity of heart within my royal court. I do not allow into my presence anyone who speaks perversely. Whoever acts shamefully I hate; no such person can be my friend. I shun the devious of heart; the wicked I do not tolerate. Whoever slanders another in secret I reduce to silence. Haughty eyes and arrogant hearts I cannot endure. I look to the faithful of the land; they alone can be my companions. Those who follow the way of integrity, they alone can enter my service.
No one who practices deceit can hold a post in my court. No one who speaks falsely can be among my advisors. Each morning I clear the wicked from the land, and rid the LORD'S city of all evildoers.

Psalm 101

Posted by: truthseeker at November 8, 2008 12:03 AM