The AP reported yesterday US Catholic bishops, who met in NM this week, may be coming closer to pulling the excommunication trigger on pro-abort Catholic politicians:
Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput said... he thinks the time for behind-the-scenes diplomacy with politicians is over....
In 2004, scrutiny fell on Democrat John Kerry, a Catholic who supports abortion rights. Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis said he would deny Communion to Kerry. Several other bishops, Chaput included, stressed that politicians should refrain from the sacrament if they support abortion rights, which they consider a "foundational" issue....
Chaput said his more aggressive posture grew partly out of frustration from his personal meetings with politicians, who often would just "look at you vacantly."
On a point well taken, Alexia Kelley of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good added:
"Abortion globally happens in the context of extreme poverty, as well. You need to address both in order to respect human dignity."
Evangelicals agree. Reported the AP May 3....
Prominent evangelical Christians are urging churchgoers to strongly consider adoption or foster care, not just out of kindness or biblical calling but also to answer criticism that their movement, while condemning abortion and same-sex adoption, does not do enough for children without parents.
With backing from the evangelical group Focus on the Family and best-selling evangelical author [of "The Purpose-Driven Life"] Rick Warren, the effort to promote "orphan care" among the estimated 65 million evangelicals in the United States could drastically reduce foster care rolls if successful.
"In some people's minds, the church has been very pro-life up until the point of birth," said Michael Monroe, who co-founded an adoption and foster care ministry at Irving Bible Church outside Dallas. "But a lot of people are saying it's not enough to be pro-life, we need to be pro-children, as well."
These are two converging topics. Both pertain to adhering to the tenets of one's Christian faith.
One could have an impact on American politics by curtailing the attempted separation of personal religious beliefs from political actions.
The other could have a major impact on the spiritual make-up of America by adding to the nuimber of youths with a strong Judeo-Christian foundation. The latter was not lost on the AP, which added:
Yet sensitive issues lie ahead: about evangelizing, religious attitudes on corporal punishment, gay and lesbian foster children, racially mixed families, and resolving long-standing tensions between religious groups and the government.
I note the liberal press never frets over values GLBTs may instill on children they adopt.
I was just thinking about foster parenting today. My husband and I have a definite call to adopt, and I am feeling very led to do so out of the foster systerm. It looks like I'm not alone!Posted by: Lauren at June 22, 2007 7:23 PM
You know, my fiance and I were just discussing how we'd raise our kids, in terms of religion, seeing as we are quite different. It's interesting, trying to find a compromise in that situation.
Adoption is a great thing, but I don't have any respect for parents who refuse to let their kids find their own way in life. I don't know if all evangelicals would do that, I really don't. That's the only real concern I have. Otherwise, more power to them.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 7:44 PM
Less, what is wrong with giving your children a biblical upbringing?Posted by: Lauren at June 22, 2007 7:49 PM
Oh, there's a difference between a biblical upbringing and an upbringing of intolerance and bigotry. Teaching your kids that there is a God and He loves us: biblical. Teaching your kids that there is a God and he hates homosexuals: intolerant.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 7:53 PM
Less, you do realize that almost NO ONE supports Fred Phelp's "God Hate's Fags" routine.
I have never met anyone in person who has said anything remotely similar to "God Hate's Homosexuals".
We might say that homosexuality is a sin, but we ALWAYS say that God loves sinners.
It is not intolerant to view an act as immoral. It would be intolerant(to say the least) to have my children set up a lynching, but I honestly don't know anyone who does that.
I will teach my son that homosexuality is wrong at the same time I teach him that gossip is wrong. He will know that a sin is a sin, and that we are all sinners. I won't harp on homosexuals, but I won't ignore God's teaching on the subject either. It has nothing to do with me "spreading hate" and everything to do with teaching to word of God.Posted by: Lauren at June 22, 2007 8:01 PM
I cringe when I see or hear people saying that gay and lesbian lifemates should not be able to adopt children. I can understand that people disapprove of it, but denying a child a loving home based on a religious attitude not universally shared by adoptive parents is a huge mistake.Posted by: SamanthaT at June 22, 2007 8:08 PM
I know people who honestly hate homosexuals, just as I know people who honestly hate pagans, Wiccans, Muslims, females. I know people who have been It isn't as uncommon as you'd think, unfortunately. It's your right to teach that it's a sin, I know I never would, but you're right: there's a difference between spreading hate and teaching that something is a sin.
That's my main problem with having kids raised in an exclusively Christian background, though: I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, nor birth control, nor premarital sex...etc.
But Less, just because you don't believe something is a sin doesn't mean it's harmful to teach MY child that it is.
Also, do you really think we live in a society in which it is a *good* thing for a kid to find his "own way".
I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow my son access to pornography and violence in order to let him be a free spirit.
He is free to "find his own way" in any number of areas, but I will guide him when it comes to forming morals. If he wants to be a painter, great. If he wants to study philosophy, great. If he wants to have his girlfriend spend the night, sorry not gonna happen. It's my job as a parent to protect him when he is young, and guide him as he grows. I feel much more stable in my ability to raise my son than the worlds.Posted by: Lauren at June 22, 2007 8:30 PM
That's fine you feel that way. As I said, teaching your version of morals is far different than teaching him to hate homosexuals, to expect his wife to be submissive, etc. I won't if I ever have kids, but it's your lookout to teach your kids according to your religion, so long as you aren't being hateful about it.
I see nothing wrong with porn, so long as it meets some basic requirements. Most of the porn available today does influence certain rape myths, which I find very objectionable. There are some "ethical erotica" companies which I would feel comfortable ordering from, and if my kids (girls watch porn too, remember) ever felt the desire, that's fine. If they want it, though, they'll understand my requirements and abide by them. I also see nothing wrong with significant others spending the night. If they're going to have sex, they're going to have sex: I'd rather know they're doing it safely than be left out of the loop all together. It doesn't really bother me, to be honest.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 8:49 PM
Less, I honestly don't have words right now.Posted by: Lauren at June 22, 2007 9:03 PM
Obviously you do, or you wouldn't have posted, eh?Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 9:15 PM
Rather ironic that you show a picture of John Kerry and then quote Alexia Kelley of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good since she was Kerry's "religious adviser." Her organization is just another fake Catholic group working to undermine the evil of abortion by using relativism to equivocate other social issues with abortion.Posted by: Jeff Miller at June 22, 2007 9:22 PM
Lauren, my parents' approach was similar to what Less is describing in some areas. When I told my mom that I felt like a loser because I wasnt allowed to go out partying with my friends, she told me that anytime I wanted to get drunk or high, she would go buy the beer and I could sit at the kitchen table and drink it. I was so embarassed that I never brought it up again.Posted by: SamanthaT at June 22, 2007 9:32 PM
I've always thought that rather amusing, to be honest, SamanthaT. So many parents do it, and most of their kids turn out okay. My best friend took them up on the offer, and they ended up sitting around with beer and chatting. Nothing horrible happened.
Then again, I was raised with a very European mindset on alcohol: you know your limit, you aren't dumb about it, and you have good taste, and it'll turn out okay. As a result, I drink for the taste, not to get "hurhurhur! drunk." As I've discovered in college, this is a radical mindset. :oPosted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 9:36 PM
My parents are the same way, drink at home and nobody gets hurt.
Of course they never have what I like around the house (Bailey's or Carolan's)...and I can't go out and buy myself some stuff and my parents are incredibly annoying about it so...yeah.Posted by: Rae at June 22, 2007 9:43 PM
I would just like to say, also, about the picture up above in the post, that, Jill, I know this photo wasnt your doing. However, despite the fact that Kerry is a public figure at the moment, the man should be able to attend mass without someone looking for an opportunity to blast him. =/Posted by: SamanthaT at June 22, 2007 9:53 PM
Don't be surprised if that picture came from Kerry's camp. Like he wouldn't like the Catholic community to see him taking communion. Not saying it did, but I wouldn't be surprised.
To Less, we are teaching our children, as I think the VAST majority of the evangelical parents are, that homosexuality, pre-marital sex, abortion...and on and on, is wrong. Not that God doesn't love those people, that he hates the sin but loves the sinner. Just like when our child does something wrong, we hate what they have done but we still love them with all our heart!Posted by: luvmy5kids at June 22, 2007 10:18 PM
See, hate has no place. The word hate, when used to reference a person, is completely inappropriate, I believe. You can say God doesn't approve, God doesn't like, whatever, but when you say that God hates something, it strikes me as very unholy, sorry.
My deity doesn't hate things.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 10:33 PM
Well the God of the Bible hates sin, to hate sin is far from unholy!Posted by: luvmy5kids at June 22, 2007 10:38 PM
Sorry, I can't imagine a loving God hating anything. Love and hate are absolute opposites: how can the same deity contain them? I'm sorry, I simply can't imagine it.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 10:41 PM
Less, it doesn't matter whether you can imagine it or not. I'm saying that God hates evil and he tells us to hate it also.
Let those who love the Lord hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Than I'll stay a pagan filled with love, if it's all the same to you. I'm only human, and not perfect, but I strive to remove hatred. Dislike I can deal with, distaste I can deal with. Disapproval, even. But I strive to hate no one. Evil I can fight against, intolerance I can battle, but to do so with hate in my heart defeats the purpose.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 22, 2007 10:49 PM
No problem Less, you carry on, I just wanted you to know that God does see a place for hate. Not just coming from me but it is written in his Book.Posted by: luvmy5kids at June 22, 2007 10:56 PM
@Luv: You do realize God didn't write the bible...it was written by man and could have easily been corrupted through out the years through the various translations.Posted by: Rae at June 22, 2007 11:13 PM
Once a liberal church group that contained several homosexuals (of which my friend was a member) went to New Orleans to help out. They were going to work with another church, but when they found out some of them were homosexuals they refused to even work with them.
Surely this isn't "hating the sin but loving the sinner," and the action by that church group wouldn't be one that I would see Jesus doing.
I think churches should be able to call each other out when they see them doing behavior that is clearly against Christ's missions.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 23, 2007 1:14 AM
LOL less I laughed imagining you trying to explain to your children, "only ETHICAL erotica! And organic lube only." And them nodding enthusiastically.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 23, 2007 1:18 AM
The Catholic Church should be taxed, as a political organization.Posted by: SoMG at June 23, 2007 2:45 AM
Than I'll stay a pagan filled with love, if it's all the same to you. I'm only human, and not perfect, but I strive to remove hatred. Dislike I can deal with, distaste I can deal with. Disapproval, even. But I strive to hate no one.
Would it be safe to say that you "hate" hate and those who "hate"?
If you read carefully, you'll notice that LUV said "that he hates the sin but loves the sinner. " Nowhere did she say she "hates" anyone...
Also, the opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference...Posted by: MK at June 23, 2007 7:31 AM
Jeff, 9:22p, said: "Rather ironic that you show a picture of John Kerry and then quote Alexia Kelley of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good since she was Kerry's 'religious adviser.' Her organization is just another fake Catholic group working to undermine the evil of abortion by using relativism to equivocate other social issues with abortion.
Jeff, I didn't know who Kelley was; I just figured she was a Catholic pro-abort who indeed was trying to detract from abortion by pointing to something else. But I did think she had a point, regardless of her intent.
Rick Warren and Bill/Lynne Hybels are having a huge impact on evangelicals, particularly on the issue of helping children in 3rd world countries with AIDS.
I attend a mega-church, and our pastor just preached 3 weeks on it. Members of our church sponsored over 800 children via Compassion International during that time.
I'm frankly ambivalent about this. I realize and support the need to care for the world's sick and poor, particularly orphaned particularly children.
On the other hand, the mega-churches are working across the sea while Rome is burning, so to speak. Is it easier for the Church to care for AIDS victims/survivors in Africa, where AIDS is contracted by more comfortable ways, than to care for American AIDS victims, who contract it primarily by gay sex or unclean needles?
Is it easier for the Church to address the needs of born children than to address the needs of preborn children? Why hasn't my pastor spent three Sundays on the topic of abortion? He said one child dies of poverty worldwide every 5 seconds. In America, one child dies of abortion every 20 seconds.
Why is there hunger and poverty worldwide? Primarily it's due to rogue governments who steal money from their people.
Pro-lifers believe much of societal ills like child abuse and poverty, in America in particular, is due to the sexual revolution and often abortion.
To be fair, my pastor spent a month talking about the harm of illicit sex and porn this past January. It was a great series. But it barely, barely, touched on abortion.
And contraception? My church leaders think I'm crazy on the issue of contraception.Posted by: Jill Stanek at June 23, 2007 8:01 AM
Parents who let their kids drink at home or let them have parties at their house, are now being arrested. Fun times.Posted by: Lauren at June 23, 2007 8:47 AM
I know, I know ....
let's find a language in the world that has no equivalent word for 'hate' ... but is OK with killing pre-born humans ((fish maybe)). If a kid can't say it, then it can't happen, right? [If you have trouble with this just ask Less to be your guide.]Posted by: John McDonell at June 23, 2007 9:37 AM
the word is 'negligence', Less ......... no wonder, you and HisMan clash!!!!!!!!!!!Posted by: John McDonell at June 23, 2007 10:53 AM
Unrelated (sorry), but I thought you might be interested. I was making a doll on http://meez.com, and I noticed that under the "social causes" section of backgrounds there is one for Planned Parenthood, but none for the pro-life side. So I made this:
(Hope the HTML comes through. If not, here's the url where you can see my meez: http://www.meez.com/profile.dm?uname=michellepotter)Posted by: Michelle Potter at June 23, 2007 12:01 PM
Oh you laugh, PiP, but I have done it before: in psychology class, no less. We were discussing the implications of porn, and I mentioned S&M and ethical erotica. My poor teacher just doesnít quite know what to do with me. : P
(And PS: There isnít such a thing as organic lube. Iíve checked. : ( )
No, MK, I donít even hate hate. I disapprove of hate, I dislike hate, I donít think people should hate, but I really try not to hate anything. Hating hate would create a horrible paradox that would be far too much for me to handle. No, itís far better to attempt to remove hate.
I donít know what dictionary youíre looking at, but the vast majority of dictionaries list love and hate as opposites. Iíd tend to agree with them.
Oh John, I donít expect you to agree with me, but negligence? Just because we disagree, Iíd be a negligent parent? You have a lot to learn about the world, my dear sir. And if a kid canít say it what now? That makes no sense, learn to phrase sentences correctly and Iíll respond to your posts.
And Lauren, that makes me sad.Posted by: HumanAbstract at June 23, 2007 12:27 PM
The words of St. Paul in 1 Cor. 11:27-29 as follows: "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."
If thiese politicians knew anything about their faith they wouldn't want communion and they would be offended that the preists were giving it to them.Posted by: Rosie at June 23, 2007 6:01 PM
"I note the liberal press never frets over values GLBTs may instill on children they adopt."
You mean like telling them there's a magic man in the sky that will stike them down if they don't do as their church leaders order them to do?
I personally think the evangelical freaks should be banned from pursuing their adoption-indoctrination agenda.
I think Cameron should be castrated.Posted by: luvmy5kids at June 23, 2007 8:06 PM
I'm surprised all you family-values biggots don't try to keep people of other faiths from adopting, like muslims and jews. After all, for you it's all just a race to convert/reproduce more than the other faith/sect can convert/reproduce.Posted by: Cameron at June 23, 2007 8:18 PM
Well, it's nice to see Kerry attending church. Perhaps the church will teach him that an unborn fetus IS human!!!Posted by: Heather4life at June 24, 2007 7:51 AM
That would be great if the Catholic Church publicly excommunicated politicians that publicly promote the slaughter of innocent babies.
Now, if they'd just disfellowship those Paul says to in 1 Cor 5 and promote the just response to the crime of murder - a sure, swift, painful and public execution after a conviction based upon 2 or more witnesses.Posted by: Zeke13:19 at June 24, 2007 1:43 PM
wouldn't it be great if self-righteous christians actually stood-up for the teachings of christ rather than trying to to usurp public policy making for the purposes of self-promotion.Posted by: Cameron at June 24, 2007 7:14 PM
Don't you have anything else?
I think the church should just pay the darn taxes and start speaking against politicians who don't have respect for human life, especially the phoney Catholic pols like John Kerry.Posted by: jasper at June 24, 2007 7:45 PM
"I think the church should just pay the darn taxes and start speaking against politicians..."
Well they're already speaking... so they should be paying taxes.Posted by: Cameron at June 24, 2007 8:53 PM
Ugh... I watched Jesus Camp today.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 25, 2007 1:21 AM
Becky Fischer, the founder of Jesus Camp is from my home town. She's one of the nut jobs my family had to deal with during the whole exchange student fiasco. Part of the clan lived on our street too, and the Fischers were always having high-profile parties trying to get neighbor hood kids to come over. I went a couple times and was promptly isolated for a lil' one on one guilt trippen...told I was going to "burn in eternal hell fire" if I didn't immediately accept their jesus. I asked if I could be a virgin again (I was 11 or 12 I think).Posted by: Cameron at June 25, 2007 6:28 PM
Becky Fischer has since announced that due to negative reactions to the camp after the film, including telephone calls and vandalism, the camp, which was held once a year for three weeks, will be discontinued indefinitely and will be replaced by other events.
The "tolerant" "open minded" and "inclusive" people vandalised the camp
The film made a mockery out of christianity.
Posted by: jasper
at June 25, 2007 6:42 PM
Morals for self-promotion has and continues to make a mockery of christianity.Posted by: cameron at June 25, 2007 6:58 PM
why do you care about Christianity? only when it suits your purpose of critizing christians you don't like..Posted by: jasper at June 25, 2007 7:09 PM
Jasper--the people in the movie taught that Catholicism is a "dead religion." When trying to teach kids about Christ's love they scared them out of their minds!
But what was frightening is all of the politics. Christianity shouldn't be a Republican religion. But these people preach it to be so.
Here's my questions for you:
1. Since this movie actively taught against the Catholic Church (and in the deleted scenes, Haggard actually mocks the Catholic cameraman on the stage of his megachurch), why aren't you angry that these "tolerant" Christians are saying this about your Church?
2. If people do that they are obviously not open-minded or tolerant. Regardless we are not even sure of what the nature of the people were. Couldn't it have been that people of other Christian denominations did it? Or jacka**es maximizing on the opportunities to wreak havoc? Radicals? It's terrible what they have done, but again it could have been anyone so don't blame it on Cameron and I.
And Cameron has a point. Christian hypocrisy here creates part of the problem. If anything this film isn't a mockery of the Christian religion but of extremism. When they said, "we should be more like the muslim suicide bombers" I said, "that's going WAY too far!" If a Christian watches it and sees no lessons learned I have to question their judgment.
That little girl was so adorable. Such a shame.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 25, 2007 11:00 PM
@PiP: I hated that movie with a burning passion. It made me so angry what they were doing to those poor children. After I watched it (after giving the finger to the computer screen on which I was watching the movie) I went downstairs and said to my parents, "Mom, Dad...thank you so much for raising me moderately Catholic instead of psychotic-Evangelical, I appreciate it very much."
They were shocked as that was probably the one positive thing I've ever said about being raised Catholic.Posted by: Rae at June 25, 2007 11:19 PM
exactly. The kids are so "happily" brainwashed. My brother and I talked about the differences. These peoples' education involved homeschooling--that is, not letting an ounce of other people's thoughts to enter into your children. However much of private Catholic education involves looking at all information available and incorporating it into your worldview.
Also the film speaks for itself. It's just filming people, there are no conclusions drawn for you. It is what it is. If you feel the film is a mockery maybe you are seeing a distorted view of Christianity in your proverbial mirror.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 26, 2007 12:03 AM
Looking back my last post might give off something differently than I meant. The first paragraph wasn't meant to say anything about protestant vs catholic education in particular. Mainly contrasting the type of homeschooling in the video with the kind of schooling I myself got at that age. As in a difference between brainwashing and education. Just don't want to give people the wrong idea. Peace out.Posted by: prettyinpink at June 26, 2007 12:40 AM