Pro-life NEA members to picket NEA convention Sunday

nea.gifIs momentum building to force the powerful National Education Association to stop its inexplicable support of abortion?

I posted a few days ago that a federal court ruled last week teachers could not be forced to join the NEA based on religious grounds that their dues would support abortion.

Now comes word a picket by pro-life NEA members and pro-lifers in general is planned tomorrow at the NEA convention in Philadelphia, attended by 9,000 delegates. NEA claims to represent 3.2 million members.

Pro-Life Educators and Students has called for the picket at 11:00 a.m. at 1101 Arch Street "to call attention to policies the nation's most powerful teachers' union has adopted that encourage unrestricted abortion and other controversial family-planning measures," according to The Evening Bulletin.

Continued EB:

[PLEAS coordinator Bob] Pawson believes one reason a teachers union shouldn't want to espouse a favorable view toward abortion is that more abortions mean fewer children, therefore fewer students, and therefore fewer needed teachers.

"I could present the issue to them from a totally moral or biblical perspective," Pawson explained. "But I know their ears are in their wallets."

teacher1.jpgHow true.

NEA involvement in abortion promotion is extensive. Read the EB article for list of resolutions and other evidence.

Teachers certainly see abused kids, hungry kids, neglected kids, poor kids.

So the NEA's logic is to help kill these problem kids before they're born?

That's the same logic of many pro-aborts, both self-serving and lazy.


Comments:

"So the NEA's logic is to help kill these problem kids before they're born?

That's the same logic of many pro-aborts, both self-serving and lazy. It's also counterproductive."

Jill, I don't think someone who is pro-choice wants to kill the unborn just because they're lazy and self-serving. I think you have to look at the circumstances surrounding it sometimes, before you make a huge blanket statement like that.

Got the email, you're most welcome ^_^V.

Gotta head out and get a shower, I'm heading into the Windy City today and I need psyche myself up to see my old SHARP buddies. Later!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at June 30, 2007 12:17 PM


Or perhaps, just perhaps, they understand the circumstances surrounding poverty, abusive relationships, etc and recognize that if women are *gasp* allowed to control their own reproductive organs, and hence their own lives, they will be able to work their way out of poverty an overall better society.

Furthermore, you slam the NEA for promoting abortion rights when this makes for less children and hences less teaching jobs and then in the same post complain that their support of such rights is self-serving. Eh?

Oh, and 3.2 members? Wow. Who cares what the three and their head in a bag (or whatever constitutes the 2/10) think? (I'm just joshing ya, Jill, I assume that is supposed to be 3.2 million).

Posted by: Diana at June 30, 2007 1:02 PM


*and contribute to an overall better society

Posted by: Diana at June 30, 2007 1:04 PM


Diana,

I just posted on the pro-choice is pro-transgender thread. I addressed it to Jill concerning threats on the internet. I commented on your actions when you were concerned about an internet stalker. I hope you'll check it out.

Posted by: Mary at June 30, 2007 1:31 PM


I think Mr. C needs a makeover, a name change if you will.

Something more in line with his rather confused twisted, and sadochistic personality.

He said his dad's name was Jack so maybe Jacksass would have been appropriate, however, I wouldn't want to insult his dad.

I've come up with a new name that by chnaging just one letter, you know, by screwing sematically with words we can capture what he really is.

Here it is.....are you ready....: Camoron!!!!!

Posted by: HisMan at June 30, 2007 3:16 PM


This post supports my contention that abortion rights were or are never about what is best for women. Rather, abortion rights are about maintaining a power base.

The people with a vested interest in maintaining that power base are willing even to allow themselves to be self-deceived, even those whose job it is to teach future generations how to think logically. Any wonder that most pro-choicers on this site are faux intelligensia?

Posted by: HisMan at June 30, 2007 3:20 PM


Hisman- Since when do YOU know whats best for the women?

Do you think its "best for the women" when a 12 year old girl... yes GIRL, gets raped and becomes pregnant... you think its best for her to stay pregnant?

I hardly believe you think logically hisman, you base your abortion beliefs on what some book tells you... some book that you believe to be true while others may not or do not.

Posted by: JM at June 30, 2007 5:00 PM


Eh, as far as I'm concerned, education unions and organizations shouldn't concern themselves with abortion and instead focus on education disparities between the suburban wealthy and the urban poor and try to improve American education and academia so that we can compete better with the rest of the world.

Posted by: Rae at June 30, 2007 6:49 PM


I agree rae, my husband is a school teacher and he hates that the nea does this.

JM, I don't think abortion is bad because of what some book says, any monkey can figure out for themselves that killing a baby with a beating heart, for any reason is wrong. And I guess you must need a reminder that women and girls that are raped are not the only ones getting abortions, not by a long shot. That's a lousy excuse.

Posted by: luvmy5kids at June 30, 2007 10:08 PM


Democrat Candidates in Debate Show No Concern for Black Victims of Abortion Says Dr. Alveda King
Christian Newswire 6/29/07

Dr. Alveda King, Pastoral Associate of Priests for Life and niece of the late Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., today questioned why leading Democratic Presidential candidates did not mention abortion last night in a debate geared toward issues facing African Americans.

"John Edwards, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama talked about the disproportionate number of blacks who die from AIDS, yet no one said a word about another disproportionately high killer of African Americans, abortion," said Dr. King. "Blacks comprise 12 percent of the population, yet at least one third of the babies aborted in this country are African American. Why? And more to the point, why are politicians afraid to talk about this? If they're really concerned about racism in America, the abortion industry is an obvious place to start looking."

Posted by: jasper at June 30, 2007 10:40 PM


SH Dan,

Being a member of SHARP, consider my post above..

Posted by: jasper at June 30, 2007 10:44 PM


luvmy5kids-

"lousy excuse" I never said that 12 year olds and young girls are the only ones getting pregnant and having abortions, so please don't put words in my mouth... It may be rare, but it DOES happen. Perhaps YOU need to be reminded of that.

Many people base what they do and what they believe off what the bible tells them... If you have read any of hismans posts, you could see thats what he bases his argument off of.

One last thing, I find you to be extremely rude. Just because my views are different from yours you feel the need to name call and act like a child. Real mature.

Posted by: JM at July 1, 2007 12:09 AM


"SH Dan,

Being a member of SHARP, consider my post above.."

Jasper, though you and I have our differences and our quarrels, what you posted does ring true in my heart.

The fact that we are so ignorant towards the plight of the black man is almost sickening to me. I do know those statistics concerning African-American abortions, and I believe that our system is to blame. We tend to ignore the inner city situation, and so when someone from the "ghetto" gets pregnant, they have an abortion because they don't have the financial means to raise a child. The fact that Obama, Clinton, and Edwards refuse to address this fact is disheartening, and I'm constantly hoping that Obama will get elected and finally do something about it. Until then, all we can really do is hope.

Good point, Jasper. My hat is off to you, my friend.

PS Chicago was AMAZING. I love The Taste!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 1, 2007 4:34 AM


S Dan,

Where are you from? Near Chicago? I just got back from Florida and until I read your post I didn't even realize that the taste was goin' on. I should have known, cuz they do a great fireworks thingy on the fourth...

Anywho, are you near the Chicago area?

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 6:23 AM


If a 10,11 or 12 year old is brought into an abortion clinic, why aren't the police brought into the matter? As far as I'm concerned, I believe that abortion clinic doctors and staff are the very reason that many minors are given abortions and returned to their abusers. Who the hell is having sex with these kids? Doesn't anyone ever see it fit to find out? Who is asking for this privacy? The minor? Why is it that an abortion is the only surgery that a 12 year old can sign for on her own? Most of these cases are rape and incest.

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:26 AM


Diana, 1:02p, said: "... and recognize that if women are *gasp* allowed to control their own reproductive organs, and hence their own lives, they will be able to work their way out of poverty an overall better society."

Skinhead Dan, 4:34p, said, "I do know those statistics concerning African-American abortions, and I believe that our system is to blame."

Diana, Dan, abortion has been legal for 34 years. It was supposed to end poverty, lower child abuse, lower spousal/partner abuse, increase marital happiness, and lower the rate of single-mom led homes.

Show me ONE statistic that demonstrates abortion has done any of that.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 6:26 AM


WELCOME BACK MK!!

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:28 AM


I have a question that I was wondering about the other day.

The ones of you who are pro-choice...if a 12 year old girl became pregnant, but actually wanted to carry the baby to term, would you allow it?

What about a 10 year old girl? If she actually said she wanted to deliver the baby?

Would you consider a parent who respected their daughter's desire to continue the pregnancy abusive for doing so?

Posted by: Bethany at July 1, 2007 6:31 AM


Control over one's reproductive organs should be exercised before the couple hits the bedroom. It's called saying "yes" or "no"

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:35 AM


Heather4,

Thanks babe! It's great to be home!

Bethany,

You've been a busy bee while I was gone! I checked in from my sister-in-laws house last week and read about Blessings baby sister/brother...I've been praying for you since. How is our little one doing? I read on your blog that everything is thumbs up so far!!! Yeah!!!

I saw on some science show recently that it is possible that left handed people are actually twins and that one of the twins didn't make it...if your wee one comes out left handed, then maybe God gave one playmate to Blessing and one playmate to Bonnie...Either way, I am continuing to pray and can't wait to start talking about names and dates...

Love,
mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 6:39 AM


As for this NEA thing...how is it that half of our kids can't read and that's okay, but God forbid they don't know how to put a condom on a banana?!?

I fear that as a society, we are greatly confused.

And when did murder become a solution to poverty?
crazy talk!

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 6:41 AM


Oh MK, you've missed it. Ca-moron has a new nickname for me. Heather 4 skin. LOL!

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:42 AM


Heather,

Ca-moron has a new nickname for me. Heather 4 skin. LOL!

Prepubescent boys can be so silly!

mk

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 6:51 AM


Abortion has turned many women into reproductive slobs. They know they always have the abortion clinic as a means of birth control. I know plenty that are using it that way. These women aren't using anything for protection. What about Hepatitis C and HIV?

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:51 AM


MK, someone told me that he was a 22 year old man. Huh, could have fooled me! He doesn't even bother me anymore.

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:53 AM


BTW, Ca-moron....credit goes to His Man for that one!

Posted by: Heather4life at July 1, 2007 6:56 AM


Heather,

If Cameron is 22, I'll eat my hat! He is either a 12 year old posing as an adult, or a 40 year old man who's only relationship with women is on the pages of playboy...

He's intelligent, yes, but hasn't got the maturity of my 7 year old! It's a shame really, because he often (well, not often, but sometimes) he actually seems like he could be a nice guy...at the very least, an interesting guy. But he really needs to stop drinking and leave the potty-mouth in the alley with his 11 year old friends. Why do I get the feeling that he loves bodily function humor...
maybe because he's full of hot air?

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 7:02 AM


welcome back MK....

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 9:35 AM


Jill,

Just decreasing the amount of children women have is not sufficient to end poverty, etc. Anyone who thinks so doesn't understand how population and political economy are involved. It's one step in a whole process. But it is an important aid to doing so. Go look at the population pyramids of all the countries of the world:

http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbpyr.html

You should notice something very interesting. There is a correlation between population makeup and the wealth and power level of a country. All the rich post-industrialized nations have population pyramids that are closer to cylindrical (below, at, or just above replacement), whereas all the poor countries have ones that look like pyramids (WAY above replacement). The exception will be some of the African countries (esp. South Africa) where what used to be a pyramid still has the base (all the kids) but the sides have caved in, since the working age population is being killed off by AIDS.

Now go look at the difference between the population pyramids of Taiwan between the 70s and now. As Taiwanese (?) women had fewer children (because of that oh so evil birth control), Taiwan put the resources that were made available by having fewer children back into providing education and health services for the population (including the women and children). That, in turn, produced a more educated work force that was capable of generating and working better paying jobs. Hello better economy! There were other factors at play, there, however. There weren't the problems with discrimination and poor schools that our urban populations face here. Didn't matter where you lived, you got the services. That's not happening here.

Posted by: Diana at July 1, 2007 10:12 AM


Bethany,

I can't speak for everyone, just myself.

"The ones of you who are pro-choice...if a 12 year old girl became pregnant, but actually wanted to carry the baby to term, would you allow it?"

Allow it? The core of my position is that I don't have any say over what she or anyone else chooses to do with their reproductive organs. It's a decision between her and her doctor. That's why it's pro-choice and not pro-abortion.

"What about a 10 year old girl? If she actually said she wanted to deliver the baby?"

If she wants to do it, then she should be able to. I'll admit it gets tricky there, since she's so young (same with the 12 year old, really), you want to say that the parents should have say, right? I mean, they have to sign off for her to go to the museum with her class or to get a flu shot. At the end of the day, however, I can't stand the idea of her parents forcing her to terminate a pregnancy that she wants anymore than I can stand the idea of them forcing her to carry to term a pregnancy she doesn't want. It's HER body.

"Would you consider a parent who respected their daughter's desire to continue the pregnancy abusive for doing so?"

Nope. I'd hope that they would respect her decision either way.

Posted by: Diana at July 1, 2007 10:26 AM


Diana,
justifying killing the unborn to fix a social problem is extreme. The pro-aborts never want to talk about personal responsibilty or abstinance education.

Note: abstinance education cannot be evaluated after just a few years of use, it may take many years...

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 11:30 AM


Diana,
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jun/06063004.html

Abstinence Program Making Huge Impact in Africa: 61 Percent Reduction in Teen Pregnancy

MESA, Arizona, June 30, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A United Families International intervention program has been credited by scholarly evaluators with making a statistically significant impact on the sexual health of pre-adolescent children in Africa. Since 2001, the Stay Alive Program has been taught in nine African nations to more than 750,000 African children and their families.

An independent program outcome evaluation in Kenya was conducted over a 2˝-year time period, examining 957 children, ages 9-14, in 51 different schools representing a diverse range of social economic status, gender, religions and geographic settings.

As reported by researchers at the International Conference on Global Health, in Washington, D.C., the results were overwhelmingly positive.

Researchers found that Stay Alive instruction leads to a high level of behavioral change among youth. Pregnancy rates dropped from 20.8 per 1,000 female students in the year prior to the Stay Alive Program being taught, to 8.2 per 1,000 female students the year after the Stay Alive Program was taught. This represents a 61-percent drop in pregnancy after the Stay Alive Program was taught in the schools.

On pre/post testing, up to one year after being taught the Stay Alive Program, the children demonstrated a statistically significant improvement in understanding how HIV/AIDS is transmitted. This statistically significant difference was not observed in children who had not been taught the Stay Alive Program.

During ethnographic interviews, it was found that prior to the Stay Alive Program being taught, the children commonly expressed a culturally fatalistic belief regarding their ability to affect their own future. When questioned about the concepts taught in the Stay Alive Program (e.g., what can you decide to do right now that will affect your future?) more than half (54.7 percent) of the children gave answers which reflected an external focus of control.

On pre/post testing up to one year after being taught the Stay Alive Program, children demonstrated a statistically significant improvement in describing the concepts of choice, consequences and the possible permanence of consequence. Additionally, children demonstrated statistically significant improvement in their concrete abilities to give examples of good choices and bad choices that they could make. This statistically significant difference was not observed in children who had not been taught the Stay Alive Program.

Young women reported a statistically significant change in perception regarding their ability to decide to resist sexual advances by males in order to protect their future families. Young men also reported a statistically significant change in perception regarding their need to decide to accept such resistance, to protect their future families. Interviews suggest that the Stay Alive Program keyed into the cultural belief that women have the right to “protect the family.”

Also statistically significant was the improvement in the level of communication that parents and care-givers are having with their children regarding sexual matters and HIV/AIDS.

Authored by Wendy Sheffield, MSW, LCSW, the Stay Alive lessons address the HIV/AIDS pandemic ravaging Africa by targeting children ages 9-14 and empowering them to make smart choices before they become sexually active. Children learn about HIV/AIDS, what it is, how it is transmitted and how they can protect themselves from contracting it by being abstinent before marriage and faithful in marriage. Guiding principles target consequential thinking skills, individual worth, abstinence, family, empowerment, hope.

For additional information, please see: http://www.stayalive.org.

Some of those poorer countries that you mention have a lower birth rate due to abstinence programs...less children, no death. Added benefit? Less incidence of aids and other STD's.
Win/Win if you ask me.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 11:59 AM


Diana,

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but if you look at the "dynamics" option, it shows that by the year 2050, Taiwan's pyramid will be upside down. Doesn't this mean that there will be an awful lot of old people but no replacements?

It was very interesting, tho. Thanks. Learn something new everyday and all that...

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 12:26 PM


"S Dan,

Where are you from? Near Chicago? I just got back from Florida and until I read your post I didn't even realize that the taste was goin' on. I should have known, cuz they do a great fireworks thingy on the fourth...

Anywho, are you near the Chicago area?"

MK,

I live in St. Charles, a suburb 40 minutes outside the city. I was born and raised in Hyde Park, and lived on the North Side for a few years before my parents moved my family to the suburbs.

Yes, the Taste was amazing, and I also went to my old hangout [had to pass through Boys Town, which was a little awkward] and went to Navy Pier and rode the Ferris Wheel for the first time in FOREVER. Needless to say, it was pretty freaking sweet!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 1, 2007 2:03 PM


Jasper,

Seriously, go buy a logic textbook and read it. My arguments for abortion rights have never had anything to do with social issues. My previous statements were an argument for a conditional statement: IF women have control over their reproductive health (by having control over their reproductive organs), AND other factors are present, THEN the economy and health of the populace is better. I gave evidence for that claim via the presentation of population pyramids to establish a correlation and through the history of Taiwan.

If I had wanted to argue for abortion rights via the social data, I would have had to make a further argument about our obligations to the betterment of society. As you'll see I did not.

And when did I say anything about abstinence education? But, by the way, being able to choose abstinence IS having control over one's reproductive health. But most married women in developing countries don't have that choice, nor do some women living traditional, patriarchical marriages here (note I said SOME, not ALL).

Posted by: Diana at July 1, 2007 2:05 PM


As an adoptive father, I feel I have to disqualify myself from any abortion debate. Also, I work in education and my wife is a teacher.

Just out of curiosity, are there any teachers out there who consider themselves a conservative? Based on the agenda of the NEA it appears as though their voices would not be welcomed. I hear alot about Gay, Transgender, and Diversity issues, but little about excellence in the old fashioned three "R"s.

Lastly in many localities there appears to be a huge disparity in retirement plans between municipal employees. How does the NEA feel about this?

I don't need to be flamed on this. I am simply looking for an answer. Thanks

Posted by: Jim Kach at July 1, 2007 2:05 PM


SDan,

I live on the Northwest Side. Go to Navy Pier often. Also the Museum of Science and Industry and the Aquarium...

You can join all of us "ladies" for breakfast...I'll let them tell you about the breakfast club. Taking the kids to a movie now. Be back later. Glad you enjoyed the fest.

(By the way, we moved last year, and one of the places we were seriously considering, is St. Charles. LOVE THAT PLACE...maybe we can hook up at Kane County on the first Saturday of the Month.
There's an Irish bar there that has to die for fish and chips!

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 2:07 PM


MK,

I could give you another study that says the opposite. I personally think that the jury is still out on the effectiveness of ab only programs, although I generally object to not giving people ALL relevant information, and for that reason would prefer that my money go to comprehensive sex ed. My personal experience with girls who've had abstinence only education doesn't help much, but I prefer to rely on data rather than anecdotes.

"Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but if you look at the "dynamics" option, it shows that by the year 2050, Taiwan's pyramid will be upside down. Doesn't this mean that there will be an awful lot of old people but no replacements?"

You're not reading wrong at all. Go look at Italy's right now. Crazy! The reason that Taiwan is headed that way (unless changes occur) and that Italy is in trouble now (along with several other post-industrial states, but to lesser degrees) is that women who have now control over how many children they have and when are choosing not to have them. The reasons they choose not to have them are also socially motivated, which is made clear by countries like Italy. Because Italy still embraces a very machismo idealogy (men don't do the cooking, cleaning, etc - mamismo is a problem too), Italian women are forced to make a choice between children and career, and they're choosing careers. In Taiwan it's much the same.

The same happens here, actually. If I truly want to really make it as a philosopher, I will likely have to forego having children (and I know many other academic women who feel the same). The problem would be solved if the model parenting relationship were more egalitarian (both man and woman chipping in), and the various industries made it easier for women to both pursue their careers and have children. But the Beaver Cleaver household is still stuck in so many people's minds as the ideal, and the various industries act as if it were.

For instance, for me to take maternity leave at any time during my first 5 years as a professor would make my getting tenured extremely difficult. Those five years (assuming I finish my PhD on time) put me at 33 years old, not the best of times to be having your first child. (And that's assuming I actually find a man willing to marry me between now and then). Some universities are now putting a stop on tenure clocks for women who take maternity leave, though, so that their time out isn't counted against them. So we're getting there. But other fields like law and business are still not making it easy on women. You take those months off and you miss out on a promotion; you can't pull the hours because you have to be home for your kid and you get passed up for making partner. Men don't have the same worries. Mom stays home with the kids so he can work 80 hours a week. Mom is the one who (rightfully) stays home after the baby is born, so he's there to get the promotion. Europe and the US (and Taiwan) have to make it possible for women to have the career and the family in the same way it is for men in order for those population pyramids to stay looking like cylinders.

P.S. Did you see the projections on India? The US government must be engaged in collective wishful thinking!

Posted by: Diana at July 1, 2007 2:19 PM


Diana (ACLU member): "If I had wanted to argue for abortion rights via the social data, I would have had to make a further argument about our obligations to the betterment of society. As you'll see I did not."

You said:
Poverty reduction..abortion.."It's one step in a whole process. But it is an important AID to doing so."

So what if it's part of a conditional? You suggested it's an important aid in controlling population...

and I do understand logic, as sometimes my position requires me to fix software bugs, etc...

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 2:28 PM


Jim Kach, I think you might want to check out the Evergreen Freedom Foundation and their Teacher's Union projects to find conservative teachers. http://www.teachers-vs-union.org/ I don't know much about it, other than it seems like the kind of people you are looking for.

Posted by: ben wetmore at July 1, 2007 2:59 PM


"That's the same logic of many pro-aborts, both self-serving and lazy."

That pretty much sums-up anti-choice hypocrisy: name calling and lip-service to logic.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 4:34 PM


Rae

"....disparities between the suburban wealthy and the urban poor and try to improve."

Sounds like what Kenedy said in his supreme court opinion last week.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 4:38 PM


Jill,

"Show me ONE statistic that demonstrates abortion has done any of that."

Show me where such promises were made.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 4:41 PM


bethany,

Good questions.

I would treat each on a case by case basis taking into consideration medical risks and motivations of parents and said daughter.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 4:43 PM


I feel so needed when there's such dialogue and speculation about me in my absence. It's flattering.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 4:47 PM


Jasper,

This is the last time I'm going to do this. If you are unwilling or unable to demonstrate that you can engage in a rational debate with me, I'll not waste any more time.

You misconstrual of my statement:
"You said:
Poverty reduction..abortion.."It's one step in a whole process. But it is an important AID to doing so."

THIS is what I said:

"Just decreasing the amount of children women have is not sufficient to end poverty, etc. Anyone who thinks so doesn't understand how population and political economy are involved. It's one step in a whole process. But it is an important aid to doing so."

Notice that the "it" in "it is an important aid" refers back to "decreasing the amoung of children women have". THAT doesn't necessarily require abortion, although it can. Is English your native language?

"So what if it's part of a conditional?"

Um, because arguing for a conditional is not the same as arguing for either the antecedent or the consequent. And, oddly enough, abortion wasn't mentioned in either.

"You suggested it's an important aid in controlling population..."

I suggested that allowing women to control their reproductive health helps control population growth which is an aid in bettering the economy. I didn't say that we needed to better the economy, did I? I didn't say it was the best way to do so, or that we should do it, or that it was the only way, did I? If I had tried to say some of these things, then I would have been making that argument. But I didn't. That's why it matters that it is in a conditional.

"and I do understand logic, as sometimes my position requires me to fix software bugs, etc..."

If you do really understand logic, then I suggest you put it to use rather than beating up strawmen, poisoning the well, and using ad hominem attacks.

Posted by: Diana at July 1, 2007 5:15 PM


Awwww Cameron,

I'm glad I could make you feel wanted. I missed you while I was gone. You know, the way you miss athlete's foot after a good dose of Tinactin. Oh wait, you don't miss athlete's foot do you? How about migraines? or mosquitos on a camping trip...oh forget it.

But I did miss you. Crudeness grows on you. And Tinactin don't help.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 1, 2007 5:17 PM


Jasper- I'm not against abstinence education. What I am against is abstinence ONLY education. Teach students about abstinence, but also teach them about birth control and condoms, STD's the whole ball of wax... then let them make an informed decision.

Posted by: JM at July 1, 2007 6:26 PM


I have a question for those who don't believe in the use of birth control or other forms of contraceptives.

I have a genetic disorder that has a 50% chance of being passed on to any children I may decide to have one day. If I don't want to risk the chances of my child having the disorder, and i decide to adopt instead does that mean my future husband and I should abstain from making love with my husband?

OR what about my cousin who has auto-immune disease, where she takes medications that could cause major birth defects in an unborn child, and a pregnancy would probably kill her... not to mention if she goes off the drugs that could kill her too. Should her and her husband abstain from sex as well?

Posted by: JM at July 1, 2007 6:33 PM


"Jasper- I'm not against abstinence education. What I am against is abstinence ONLY education. Teach students about abstinence, but also teach them about birth control and condoms, STD's the whole ball of wax... then let them make an informed decision."


LOL....

When you're an moral absolutist, then all must be cast as mutually exclusive with complete abandonment of proportionality.

Posted by: Cameron at July 1, 2007 7:00 PM


"I have a genetic disorder that has a 50% chance of being passed on to any children I may decide to have one day."

so don't I.

"I have a genetic disorder that has a 50% chance of being passed on to any children I may decide to have one day. If I don't want to risk the chances of my child having the disorder, and i decide to adopt instead does that mean my future husband and I should abstain from making love with my husband?"

No, use natural family planing, I'm sorry you still don't want to have children though.

"OR what about my cousin who has auto-immune disease, where she takes medications that could cause major birth defects in an unborn child, and a pregnancy would probably kill her... not to mention if she goes off the drugs that could kill her too. Should her and her husband abstain from sex as well?"

in this case concraceptives I believe, would be OK.

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 8:29 PM


Diana: "and using ad hominem attacks"

where did I attack you Diana?

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 8:35 PM


Jasper

"so don't I."

huh... what does that mean? the possibility of you having a child with my disorder is 1 in 3,000.. the possibility of my child having the disorder is 1/2.... While your child could have the disorder the chances or low, whereas mine are rather high.. I however was one of those 1 in 3,000....

Also, I never said I didn't want to have kids... In fact I'm pretty sure I will someday. I don't intend to have kids any time soon though. I'd prefer to be married and slightly older. It is going to be something my future husband and I discuss and decide.

I know someone that relied on NFP... she ended up pregnant within the first few months of her marriage... Her husband had just left for Iraq when she found out she was pregnant, either that or she found out shortly before he left... I guess the upside to it was that her husband was allowed to come home when the baby was born.

While NFP may work for some, it doesn't work for all... its definitely isn't for me... Good for those that want to use.. not me though.

Posted by: JM at July 1, 2007 8:53 PM


"huh... what does that mean? the possibility of you having a child with my disorder is 1 in 3,000.. the possibility of my child having the disorder is 1/2.... While your child could have the disorder the chances or low, whereas mine are rather high.. I however was one of those 1 in 3,000...."

JM, I have my own blood disorder (hemochromatosis). Where my sons have a 50% chance of getting it... they havent been tested for it yet as there still pretty young. It is treatable though....

Posted by: jasper at July 1, 2007 10:54 PM


"I live on the Northwest Side. Go to Navy Pier often. Also the Museum of Science and Industry and the Aquarium...

You can join all of us "ladies" for breakfast...I'll let them tell you about the breakfast club. Taking the kids to a movie now. Be back later. Glad you enjoyed the fest.

(By the way, we moved last year, and one of the places we were seriously considering, is St. Charles. LOVE THAT PLACE...maybe we can hook up at Kane County on the first Saturday of the Month.
There's an Irish bar there that has to die for fish and chips!"

I'll definitely take you up on that offer sometime. I'd love to meet your breakfast club. As for the Irish bar, which one? McNally's? Pub 222? The Claddagh? I've piped all over STC, Batavia, Geneva, and most of Chicago, so I know lots of Irish bars. Claddagh is a great place though. I love the food there. If you ever feel like making a trip up to the STC, let me know and I'd be more than happy to meet up and have some lunch, or coffee, or something with you. It's good to meet people with a different view on things that also have an open mind.

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 1, 2007 11:23 PM


Jasper-
ah okay, well I'm glad that it is treatable. Yes well I plan to have my own kids some day. It scares me to think they could get neurofibromatosis (NF), I myself have a very mild case of it, but because I have it, my kids could get it and have it much worse than myself. But I love the idea of being pregnant someday and having my own children. NF is easy to detect early on, i'll probably know within the first few years of birth. Its not treatable but rarely causes death.
Anywho, I'm rambling now. Have a good night everyone!

Posted by: JM at July 1, 2007 11:49 PM


Dan,

You play the bagpipes? Awesome! Ever play with the Rovers? Do you know Jimmy Moore or Pat Broaders? Jimmy is a good friend of mine.

I'll be a the Irish American Heritage Center for their Irish Fest this summer (July, I think). What Irish Bars do you know on the Northwest side? I love Kitty O'sheas on Michigan Ave.

While I'll never change my mind on abortion, I must say that I'm very impressed by you, despite your view on the unborn. You are very well spoken, respectful, and now you pipe to boot. I think I like you...awww, shucks!

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 2, 2007 6:28 AM


Mk I agree with you about Dan. :)

Thank you for the well wishes! :)

I saw on some science show recently that it is possible that left handed people are actually twins and that one of the twins didn't make it...if your wee one comes out left handed, then maybe God gave one playmate to Blessing and one playmate to Bonnie...Either way, I am continuing to pray and can't wait to start talking about names and dates...

I have read that before, and have wondered if it's possible that I had a twin, since I am a lefty. Since it's just a theory (right now) I don't know, but if my baby is my first southpaw baby, I will have to consider it a definite possibility!

Posted by: Bethany at July 2, 2007 8:23 AM


"I saw on some science show recently that it is possible that left handed people are actually twins and that one of the twins didn't make it."

Thats interesting, I had never heard that before... My older brother is left handed. My mom tried to make him right handed when she realized he was a lefty... didn't work. This was when he was just starting to eat on his own... he used a spoon in his left hand. She tried to put the spoon in his right hand but he kept switching it back... very interesting...

Posted by: JM at July 2, 2007 11:48 AM


"You play the bagpipes? Awesome! Ever play with the Rovers? Do you know Jimmy Moore or Pat Broaders? Jimmy is a good friend of mine.

I'll be a the Irish American Heritage Center for their Irish Fest this summer (July, I think). What Irish Bars do you know on the Northwest side? I love Kitty O'sheas on Michigan Ave.

While I'll never change my mind on abortion, I must say that I'm very impressed by you, despite your view on the unborn. You are very well spoken, respectful, and now you pipe to boot. I think I like you...awww, shucks!"

When it comes to Irish bars in Chicago, none can beat Fado, Murphy's, or Mickey's. As for piping, no, I've never played with the Rovers, nor have I met your two friends. I have heard of them, though, and it must be awesome to know Jimmy. I did play with Celtic Nations in Milwaukee for a spell, and I also was part of the SJNMA Pipe and Drum Corps.

Ditto to the last comment. I won't change my opinions, and I'm glad that you stand by your convictions. There aren't many people left in the world who will stand by their beliefs. Most of them flake out, and it's quite depressing. Thank you for the compliments, as well. Most people assume because of my background that I'm not smart, and not well read. Considering that I've been reading since the age of 2 and I've always loved public speaking, when people talk down to me, it gets me a bit irritated.

Thank you for treating me as an equal. I do appreciate that. If you're in Milwaukee in August, Irish Fest is going on up there, and one of my favorite bands, Gaelic Storm, is playing all three nights. If you can make it, you should definitely make the trip. It's worth it.

Oh, and about you liking me... It's just my natural Scottish charm. No one can resist the kilt!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 2, 2007 1:33 PM


Bethany,

Agree with MK about what about me? I'm a wee bit confused.

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 2, 2007 1:51 PM


I was agreeing with this statement, Dan :)

"While I'll never change my mind on abortion, I must say that I'm very impressed by you, despite your view on the unborn. You are very well spoken, respectful, and now you pipe to boot. I think I like you...awww, shucks!"

Posted by: Bethany at July 2, 2007 1:56 PM


Dan,

I used to go to the Milwaukee Irish Fest all the time. It's the best one I've ever been to. Let me check the dates in August (man it's creepin' up fast, isn't it). I'd actually love to go again.

It brings back great memories. My father was well then and our whole family, as well as other families would all go up together and get a block of rooms. My 21 year old was like three back then. He got lost once and told the security people his name was Michael, Michael Motorcycle...what a hoot hearin' that over the loud speaker!

Yeah, Jimmy is great. He's the most talented musician I have ever met. He plays everything. You can't talk to him on the phone cuz he always got some instrument goin' and you can't keep his attention. He's married to one of my girlfriends from grade school. My cousin is also married to Joe Dooley of the Dooley brothers. God I love Irish musicians!

As for respecting you...that one is easy. You are always respectful and deserve such in return. I've never once heard you call anyone a name, or be spiteful or cruel...very refreshing! Just goes to show that being a grown up doesn't necessarily mean being dull. You prove that!

And you know I gotta ask? Do you or don't you? Under the kilt?

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 2, 2007 2:19 PM


"While NFP may work for some, it doesn't work for all... its definitely isn't for me... Good for those that want to use.. not me though."

Why not?

Posted by: carder at July 2, 2007 2:57 PM


"And you know I gotta ask? Do you or don't you? Under the kilt?"

I'm Scottish. That should be enough of an answer for you. However, I've found a few lines on the internet that I've used many times over the -years when someone asks me that question...

-How badly do you want to know?

-How warm are your hands?

-Me mother once told me a real lady wouldn't ask. She was right, God bless 'er.

-My Scottish pride.

-On a good day, lipstick.

-Play your cards right and you can find out.

-Tell me madam , would you go jogging without a bra? If so, where do you jog and when?

-Sorry, I'm a bit shy and not much good with words. Give me your hand...

-Talcum powder

-A wee set of pipes.

-Bagpipes, wanna give 'em a blow?

-It's the smallest airport in the world.....2 hangars and a night fighter.
-My shoes and socks.

-String -- I had to tie it up so it didn’t hang below the kilt.

-What God graced me with.

I didn't make all those up. Most of them I found on the internet so I had some good things to say when people asked me. But yes, I wear my kilt regimentally. Trust me, if my grand da ever found out I was wearing anything under it, he'd kill me.

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 2, 2007 3:13 PM


PS If you don't believe me, ask Erin next time she's on!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 2, 2007 3:19 PM


Dan,

I'm almost sorry I asked! Waaaayyyy too much information. LOL!

T'was rhetorical, me boy, rhetorical...

*blush*

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 2, 2007 3:30 PM


I probably should've warned you. I'm very blunt and very honest. If you ask me a question, expect an answer, and if I'm in a good mood, I get goofy, as shown above.

Besides, no one can resist the kilt. It's magical sexy powers make the wearer attractive to all members of the human race, and even some of the animals, too!

Posted by: Skinhead Dan at July 2, 2007 3:46 PM


Dan,

STOP! The animal thing is way to "visual"...

(what kinds of animals?)

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 3, 2007 8:38 AM


Carder, NFP just does not work for certain people with irregular cycles. I, for one, would never be able to use it. It's really useless for people who never know when to expect their periods or have hormonal imbalances, which throw off the "signs" that practicers of NFP use to prevent or plan pregnancy. This is why I will never, ever, EVER use it as a method of "birth control", and I hesitate to even call it that, because it does not and cannot work for me.

Posted by: Lyssie at July 3, 2007 9:01 AM



Kilts are hot...I may not have much Irish/Scottish in me (more of the Italian stock of Catholic ancestry, MK), but them kilted boys are SMOKIN'. Shh....Don't tell my boyfriend. :)

But I can always hope for a drop or two of Scottish blood from my mom's side. :) There's some in there somewhere.

Posted by: Lyssie at July 3, 2007 9:05 AM


Lyssie,

I very much agree.:)

Posted by: Heather B. Author Profile Page at July 3, 2007 9:14 AM


"While NFP may work for some, it doesn't work for all... its definitely isn't for me... Good for those that want to use.. not me though."

"Why not?"

Because NFP is not as effective as I'd like it to be. I want to have children someday, but not right now. I don't want to "rely" on NFP and then wind up pregnant before I'm ready... and sorry I'm not going to abstain either. Right now I use contraceptives and if by chance I do get pregnant, then I will deal with the consequences of my actions and either keep the child or give it up for adoption.

Posted by: JM at July 3, 2007 11:29 AM


Everyone is missing the fact that there is a choice for Right to Work states, join something else! Even in non-RTW states, you can opt out. Loss of money from loss of members is the ONLY thing that will affect the NEA.

Posted by: Jim Hawkins at July 3, 2007 12:05 PM


"Carder, NFP just does not work for certain people with irregular cycles.'


I beg to differ. Speaking from personal experience and from fellow NFPers, one can use NFP with irregular cycles. While having regular cycles makes the use of NFP easier, it can and has been used successfully by many an irregular chick.

"It's really useless for people who never know when to expect their periods or have hormonal imbalances, which throw off the "signs" that practicers of NFP use to prevent or plan pregnancy."

You have a point. Irregular cycles are, well, not regular, therefore a symptom of abnormal functioning. With NFP comes the benefit of pinpointing certain patterns, red flags if you will, which can assist the woman and her NFP-friendly/knowledgeable doc to test further and thus find a suitable treatment. Hormonal contraceptives simply mask the underlying abnormality, not necessarily "cure" the irregularity. I know that's not true 100% of the time, but there's plenty of docs who would back me up on this.

"...because it does not and cannot work for me."

Have you tried using it? Were you taught by a trained instructor? Or was it by reading a how-to manual? Not being snide, am sincerely wanting to know.

For those of us who experience irregularity, the cause could be from a number of factors: luteal phase inadequacy, low thyroid function, hyperthyroidism, being underweight or too lean, being overweight, polycystic ovary syndrome, sensitivity to night lighting, galactose sensitivity, and caffeine consumption. Even just plain old sugar consumption can have a tremendous affect on our cycles. Simply being prescribed bc pills falls short of treating those abnormalities.

Dr. Thomas Hilgers, developer of the Creighton Model of NFP, also known as NaPro Technology, has done phenomenal work in this area of gyn. Just reading /viewing one interview provides a welath of information about the fallacies of contraceptives and its healthier, safer alternative.

I recall at 19 yrs. old having irregular,painful periods. Was I tested for anything? Nope. The good doc precribed the pill and I went on my merry way. I wish this kind of experience was the exception, but, sadly, it is not. Years later after educating myself and discovering the gift of NFP, I realized how inadequate the course of treatment was and how my body was put at risk. I became so adamant that others could be spared the grief that I went through that I went ahead and became certified to teach NFP.

"Because NFP is not as effective as I'd like it to be."

I can look up the studies that would prove otherwise if you're interested.

"and sorry I'm not going to abstain either."


In a healthy cycle, the time of abstinence is considerably less than the "safe" time. Denying ourselves certain pleasures takes self-discipline, I admit, but the time of abstinence can be seen as either a pity party (Poor me, I can't have sex now) or it can be used to express our affection in non-genital ways (Let's go bowling, honey). Within the context of marriage, it can be a blessing in disguise,a great antidote to sexual satiation and provide the couple with a monthly honeymoon so to speak. It can also obligate the couple to reconsider the reasons for not wanting to conceive at that particular time.

The benefits are numerous as many a couple can attest to.

"if by chance I do get pregnant, then I will deal with the consequences of my actions and either keep the child or give it up for adoption."

Awesome! Thank you for not wanting to *terminate* your brand new little life :=)


MK~heard you were in Florida. Went to Disney World? Next time you're down, give me a heads up. I'm not far from the Land of Mickey.


Posted by: carder at July 3, 2007 2:43 PM


Men in skirts?

Posted by: jasper at July 3, 2007 3:54 PM


Carder, out of immense curiosity (the biology student that I am), during the time that I took off of my BC pill (I didn't go off for any ill side effects, I just ran out of prescription and had to wait a while until my next gyno appointment), I used those months to see if my body exhibited the signs that practicers of NFP look for. I did this out of the claims I've seen on this site about its effectiveness and the obvious outward indications of fertile periods (the temperature changes, the change in cervical mucus, etc). I wanted to see if it was true for my particular body, as I hope to eventually go off of BC for the express purpose of GETTING pregnant (not for a LONG TIME, however). For a few months I did not notice ANY changes in the mucus, and the weird thing was that I experienced several temperature fluctuations (measured in the morning after waking up) during ONE cycle...I have no idea if this means I was ovulating more than once during a cycle. My cycles prior to the pill were nearly identical to these (showing that there was no more residue hormone from the Pill in me) in the bloating, the pain, and the massive bleeding, along with them being shortened (another odd thing, since I only have 2 1/2 week cycles without the pill on average [sometimes shorter], and the temperature changes may have indicated that I STILL ovulated more than once!!). Weird.

I tell you what, I feel HORRIBLE when I'm not on the pill. I need it, and it definitely is one of the best medical choices I've ever made. No pregnancy is just a really, really great perk. While NFP may boast some success rate, I'd still rather go with something that has a pretty great success rate AND helps me with my feminine curses. It kept my mom pregnancy-free for YEARS before she stopped using it and got pregnant with me. I'm just glad she had the option. :)

Posted by: lyssie at July 3, 2007 5:29 PM


"Everyone is missing the fact that there is a choice for Right to Work states, join something else! Even in non-RTW states, you can opt out. Loss of money from loss of members is the ONLY thing that will affect the NEA."

I could be wrong here but some districts may require you join the NEA.... And when you live in some places (where I am originally from) the teaching market is very very competitive, you may just want to suck it up and join even if you don't want to. I tried to get a job in my home state... but in some places I was competing with 400 other people. I'm also pretty sure that when I was having clinical in the classroom in college I had to become a member of this group before they would allow me to go into the classroom. No one should be forced to be in this group if something they support goes against the individuals morals/values.

Posted by: JM at July 3, 2007 8:25 PM


JM, I posted on a federal lawsuit an Ohio teacher just won over her being disallowed up til her legal victory from opting out of NEA for religious reasons, specifically because she is pro-life:

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/06/two_major_proli.html

Carder, excellent information on how NFP can help girls/women with irregular periods. It makes perfect sense for ears who want to hear.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at July 4, 2007 8:46 AM


Jill-
Thats great! Good for her! She must have been one of the teachers forced to be in it, as I think most are...

Oh I just remembered something. When I was in Arizona signing my contract to teach in a school, other teachers were signing contracts too. They warned me about the union and that they would really try to get me to join. They said theres no real benefits to joining. I am not sure if it is the same organization though... I could keep you posted if you'd like me to. I start my orientation in about two weeks where I think they will talk about the union. As I stated above NO ONE should be forced to be in a group that supports something they do not. I am an ali for the LBGT community, (lets not get into the homosexuality talk though) I know that if some group opposed the LBGT community (this is why I have an issue with religion), then I would be extremely angry too. So I can see why teachers who are pro-life wouldn't want to be in it.

I guess I do have a question though.... why can't they opt out for other reasons? Say they are pro-life, but not for religious reasons. I know someone who is ultimately pro-choice for the time being but can see the other side of things... Just the other day he told me he was torn on the topic. He is agnostic.

Posted by: JM at July 4, 2007 11:29 AM


Lyssie,

This is great...you're not just criticizing the method, you actually attempted some self observations!


"For a few months I did not notice ANY changes in the mucus, and the weird thing was that I experienced several temperature fluctuations (measured in the morning after waking up) during ONE cycle...I have no idea if this means I was ovulating..."

The symptoms you described are expected when coming off the pill. Were the temps taken at the same time every morning? It's critical that they are at the same time so as to get a consistent reading. There's external and internal mucus checks that are done to verify mucus status. Chances are that you were not ovulating several times during one cycle. When counseling couples coming off the pill, the first 3 months require special directions before standard NFP rules apply.


The bloating, pain, massive bleeding and the other symptoms you experienced before and after the pill would lead me to say that the underlying cause of your curse has not been cured, only altered with the synthetic hormones. Two and a half week cycles? If you don't give a hoot about ever using NFP, I would encourage you at the very least to get a thorough checkup on exactly what is causing these symptoms. Our cycles are like windows to our underlying health issues, similar to what blood test studies and ultrasound images do for us in other aspects. Starting with low tech self helps sometime may be enough, but of course, I'm not the MD. Maybe make a personal checklist of the following:

improper nutrition (that's a biggie!)
improper body balance (ratio of weight to height and body fat to total weight)
stress
environment
something pathological(like endometriosis or low progesterone levels)


"I'd still rather go with something that has a pretty great success rate AND helps me"

It may help you on the surface, but at a great cost to overall health. I won't even begin to list the potential side effects, but you're a smart cookie, so you probably already know.

May I recommend a helpful read? "Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition" by Marylin Shannon. she's a nutritionist who's seen it all.

Plus, find out if there's an NFP doc in your area, if you can afford it via insurance or otherwise. Why? Since they don't laugh NFP off as a 21st century remake of the Calendar method, they take it quite seriously and can be most helpful in knowing which direction to go with your information.


...And they won't slap you with a packet of Pills.


Posted by: carder at July 4, 2007 5:17 PM


Thanks, Carder. I've been given a prescription for a thyroid test to see if an imbalance in my hormones elsewhere in the body may influence my cycles, which is a distinct possibility. However, other than my irregular cycles, I am the picture of good health. I'm 5'7", 130-135 lbs, exercise regularly and am a bit of a health nut (although I must indulge in chocolate and ice cream...making me less of a health nut than my EXTREMELY fit boyfriend...lucky me :) ).

I have never had weight issues (although I was very very thin when I went through my growth spurt, which is normal). The worst medical condition I've ever had was a torn meniscus.

Though my cycles may be very short, my gynecologist has said it could be somewhat normal for me. I, however, do not want to deal with any more periods than I have to, as they are fraught with seriously painful cramps (I was checked for endometriosis and cysts, neither of which I have) and I go anemic because of the frequency in my periods (that's a lot of blood/tissue loss). Pills only help space them out and cut back on the blood loss. I'm not willing to go back to the days of hair loss and fatigue and hopeless pain every two weeks.

Posted by: lyssie at July 5, 2007 8:48 AM


Alyssa,

There you are!

Missed ya.

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 5, 2007 10:01 AM


Lyssie,
Thanks for the update. I would be interested in knowing the results of the thyroid test if you're ok with that. And wouldn't you know, I've got info on the thyroid issue, too, but I'll just leave it at that for now.

Good luck.

Posted by: carder at July 5, 2007 11:38 AM


Heyyyyyy, MK.

How was Florida? I've been busy with classes for the last few weeks, so I haven't been on nearly as much. I'm actually sitting at a computer in the lab here waiting for my class to start.

:) You were missed as well. *giggle* Oh, dear, while you were gone it looks like Jasper's gone and gotten us all in a tizzy again. He sure knows how to push buttons.

Posted by: lyssie at July 5, 2007 12:32 PM


Alyssa,

I know, I see that on the DC post...

You guys...if you don't start treating each other nicely I'm gonna have to ban you from the Cameron/Mullet Florida/Alabama State Line Catapult Breakfast...

Posted by: MK Author Profile Page at July 5, 2007 5:05 PM


*sigh* Oh, MK...

Can't you do something about controlling him? A good swat on the behind? A "NO, JASPER, NO!!"? Obedience training?

Really, it's like he comes in to piddle on the carpet just to irk everyone. Wait til he starts humping legs....then we'll REALLY need to get him fixed.

Posted by: lyssie at July 5, 2007 5:20 PM


LOL!! actually Jasper (my dog) is fixed, but he still likes to hump other dogs...

Steve

Posted by: jasper at July 7, 2007 10:07 PM


JM, 7/3, 11:29a: Sorry for the delay in responding. Sure, keep us posted on whether you are forced to join the NEA, etc. Thanks.

Posted by: Jill Stanek Author Profile Page at July 9, 2007 1:46 PM