GOTV!

There will be no Weekend Question. Pro-lifers should be working this weekend to GOTV, get out the vote. The last 72 hours before an election are the most important of the entire campaign: getting our people to the polls.

gotv 3.gifPro-lifers can help by making phone calls for McCain/Palin. Go here to sign up to call. Commit to making 50. Just do it. The site provides the script.

I mentioned in my previous post about leafletting church parking lots. The nonpartisan flyers are available at that post to download, print, and distribute. We should all do this at our churches tomorrow. Another spot I like to leaflet is school parking lots on Sunday mornings. Lots of small churches meet there.

Get involved this weekend. Drudge reported last night McCain has now taken the lead according to Zogby. We cannot let Barack Obama take office. GET OUT THE PRO-LIFE VOTE!

zogby drudge.jpg


Comments:

I already voted! I win!

Posted by: Jess at November 1, 2008 12:46 PM


Drudge reported last night McCain has now taken the lead according to Zogby.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, Gallup has Obama up 10 points among likely voters, the majority of early voters have been Democratic, and the McCain campaign has no money for GOTV efforts.

Posted by: reality at November 1, 2008 12:59 PM


Actually Jill that article states that McCain is still behind Obama by five points:
"UTICA, New York -- Republican John McCain made a small gain against Democrat Barack Obama and has pulled back within the margin of error, now trailing Obama by five points, 49.1% to 44.1%, the latest Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby daily tracking telephone poll shows."
http://www.zogby.com/main.htm

Maybe you should read the article before you post it?

Posted by: Jess at November 1, 2008 1:00 PM


The article claims Obama has the lead with, "Obama 49.1%, McCain 44.1%"
http://www.zogby.com/main.htm

Posted by: Jess at November 1, 2008 1:05 PM


HOW DARE YOU SEND YOUR PROPAGANDA THROUGH THE MAIL TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR CAUSE!! No matter where you stand on the issues, it is simply NOT RIGHT to send a picture of a dead baby in a trash can to whomever you think you can. What if any of my children had opened that envelope? The image is going to be stuck in my mind and I am mortified to think that it was possible they could have it stuck in theirs. Is taking a stance more important than someone's feelings or privacy? I don't think so!! Keep to your website and LEAVE INNOCENT PEOPLE ALONE TO RECEIVE THEIR OWN SOLICITED, APPROPRIATE MAIL.

Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 1:08 PM


Joan, who are you speaking to?

Posted by: Bethany at November 1, 2008 1:23 PM


Also, just out of curiosity...Are you more angry that you had to see the baby, or that a baby had been thrown in the trash?

Posted by: Bethany at November 1, 2008 1:26 PM


Heh. Was that a reading comprehension error or just wishful thinking?

Zogby, as well as every single reputable poll in the country is still showing Obama reasonably ahead in the popular vote, and waaaay ahead in electoral votes.

Posted by: Shep at November 1, 2008 1:39 PM


Jess, Shep: Read again... Republican John McCain has pulled back within the margin of error... The three-day average holds steady, but McCain outpolled Obama 48% to 47% in Friday, one day, polling. He is beginning to cut into Obama's lead among independents, is now leading among blue collar voters, has strengthened his lead among investors and among men, and is walloping Obama among NASCAR voters.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 1, 2008 1:41 PM


Yes Jill. Saw that - I do read. The Drudge link says "one day polling"- and then clearly states that is an outlier and that the averages still indicate a strong Obama lead.

You then go on to say in your entry that "McCain has pulled ahead"

You do realize those two statements are not saying the same thing at all, right?

Posted by: Shep at November 1, 2008 1:50 PM


Given close to 1,000 polls collectively taken for this election, it's highly probable that they are no longer based on anything matching reality. Call it a political Heisenberg.

As for respectability, from antics both sides are proclaiming, there's a great deal of questionability as to the veracity of the election results, never mind polling.

Here's an interesting article for your Saturday reading:
http://www.zombietime.com/lefts_big_blunder/


Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 1, 2008 1:53 PM


McCain is going to win. My prediction, my prayer.

Posted by: Carla at November 1, 2008 1:54 PM


I am speaking to Jill. Her website was listed on the propaganda I received. I am upset that a picture like that was sent to me because Jill thinks she has the right to promote her cause any way she wants to. (Of course, I was upset that the baby had been thrown in the trash.)If the picture had not been included, I would have respected her right to free speech. Now I have no respect for her or what's she's trying to do because of the tactics she's using. Too bad her over-the-top campaign backfired. I read nothing on the other pages after I saw the picture of the baby. I am also extremely upset about the fact that my young child could have seen that picture because Jill is not concerned about children other than the ones she is supposedly trying to save. ALL children have the right to be safe and happy and Jill has forgotten that by sending out her disturbing propaganda. It sickens me to know that there are people out there, like Jill, who will do anything to promote a cause, with complete disregard for others.

Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 2:15 PM


Joan, I don't know what you're talking about. I have no knowledge of my website being listed on any mailer; therefore, I did not give my permission. What was it propagandizing?

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 1, 2008 2:22 PM


Jill look at the polls on the website. They all say Obama is in the lead. What poll did McCain out poll Obama? The one take by NASCAR fans? Because as we all know NASCAR fans make up 73% of the registered voters in America.

Posted by: Jess at November 1, 2008 2:42 PM


Jess,

Did you check the Drudgereport.com?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 2:45 PM


Jill is not concerned about children other than the ones she is supposedly trying to save.
Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 2:15 PM

How do you know that Joan?

Or, how often do you you read Jill Stanek, and can you quote Stanek word for word, that she
"is not concerned about children other than the ones she is supposedly trying to save".

Tut, tut, your propagating untruths, or just propagandizing, and being a unsolicited propagandist at that, Joan.

Show where Jill wrote those words Joan.

Posted by: yllas at November 1, 2008 3:07 PM


It would seem that Joan is more upset about a picture of a baby in the trash than she is about the fact that babies are thrown in the trash. Shame on you, Joan.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 3:22 PM


I think it's pretty safe to say that America is screwed no matter who wins. If McCain wins, Obama's acolytes will probably try to burn every major city to the ground. If Obama wins, Obama's policies will metaphorically burn every city to the ground.

So. Are you ready for some fun?!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 3:25 PM


There appears to be no limits whatsoever to the humiliation Sarah Palin must endure:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081101%2fpalin_prank_081101

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 3:41 PM


Zogby polls are notoriously unreliable. They rely on internet polling which can easily be cooked by the respondants and in the past this has been the case. One look at the results found when searching zogby polling reliability in google will tell you that Zogby polls are a waste of time if you're looking for solid data.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 1, 2008 4:03 PM


saw the QOTD: poor poor Gwen. She just can't cope.
1 is 10, 2 is 3, 3 is 3 and 4 and above is 0 (you never see or hear them - they're off doing their own thing). That's all I know!

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 4:10 PM


making phone calls, but for some reason it's giving me long distance calls to make and it's annoying me. grrr.

Posted by: JamieNov81 at November 1, 2008 4:16 PM


oh dear this would make a great comedy video if I wanted to make mccain looks worse. oh this is a lawfirm and I'm busy with a client so please leave a message
oh hi I am jamie eek calling on behalf of mccain who is the only (well palin too) uh real candidate s##t I just called this number nov4 ack. go palin! hehe

Posted by: JamieNov81 at November 1, 2008 4:23 PM


doing my part...volunteering at the Palin rally here in Canton, Ohio tommorrow morning! can not wait, it will be the second in two weeks that i have helped at. if anyone ever gets the chance to, do it! you definatly have the inside scoop on where to be and when! i got to shake John's hand and i almost got Sarah's signature (she grabbed the poster next to mine)!

Posted by: becky at November 1, 2008 4:24 PM


YLT

If memory serves me correct it was Zogby who determined that Gore would win the popular vote in 2000. It was his polling that first picked up Gore pulling ahead in a very tight race a week or weekend before the election.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 4:41 PM


Joan, At what age do you plan to tell your children about abortion?

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 5:17 PM


Amen Jill, vote pro-life, vote McCain
http://www.lifenews.com/johnmccainprolife.html

Posted by: Steve Ertelt at November 1, 2008 5:21 PM


ALL children have the right to be safe and happy and Jill has forgotten that by sending out her disturbing propaganda. It sickens me to know that there are people out there, like Jill, who will do anything to promote a cause, with complete disregard for others.

Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 2:15 PM

of course what Joan forgets is that children have to be BORN first before they can have that "right" to be safe and happy.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 5:51 PM


So... I'm not voting because neither candidate deserves to be president.

I am getting married, though. :D

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 6:18 PM


Woohoo! Congratulations, Leah!!!!!

Posted by: Erin at November 1, 2008 6:22 PM


Thanks Erin!

I'm telling strangers first because I have to practice telling my dad. :)

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 6:34 PM


Jill,
The mailer is two pages that are stapled together. At the top of the first page, there is a title that says "Urgent - Please Read". When you turn the page, there is another title that says "The Real Obama." There is a subtitle that says, "Here are Obama's radical beliefs:" There is a list of these "beliefs" with a very disturbing picture, that I have mentioned in my previous posts. After the last bullet pointed "belief" it says, in capital letters, "For more information about the real Obama, please visit www.jillstanek.com" The third page is titled "Where do the candidates stand on key issues?" At the bottom, there is a logo for "Priests for Life". There are also a few sentences that say, "This guide has been legally approved for distribution by churches and 501-(c)-3 organizations. ... The envelope was postmarked in Palatine. If you did not realize that your website was mentioned in this mailer, I apologize.

Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 6:51 PM


Joan,

Good, get informed about Obama's radical positions. You're more worried about the picture than the dead babies.

Posted by: Jasper at November 1, 2008 7:15 PM


Obama may win but I am not sure he will srve since he appears to be unable to prove he is a natural born citizen.

Phil Berg, a Philadelphis lawyer, has filed the appeal of his case (Berg vs Obama) to the Supreme Court on Thursday.

If you want more information go to:

WWW.OBAMACRIMES.COM

Posted by: Joe at November 1, 2008 7:50 PM


YLT: "Zogby polls are notoriously unreliable. They rely on internet polling which can easily be cooked by the respondants and in the past this has been the case. One look at the results found when searching zogby polling reliability in google will tell you that Zogby polls are a waste of time if you're looking for solid data."

The internet is unreliable...I mean, just check the internet!

By the way, I love Joan's assumptions. She assumes that because Jill was promoted by the materials, that the tactics were specifically organized by Jill as noted by the quote "I am upset that a picture like that was sent to me because Jill thinks she has the right to promote her cause any way she wants to."

Thats not even mentioning the assumption she made that Jill even supports the tactics. I dont know where Jill stands, but it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people are.

Posted by: Oliver at November 1, 2008 7:52 PM


Oliver - Hey if you want to believe misleading polls, go right ahead. But even the conservative Wall Street Journal thinks Zogby has problematic polling methods. It is to the advantages of both the conservatives and the liberals to have accurate polling numbers. Zogby's method just doesn't cut it, no matter if he comes up with results that i support or results that I oppose

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116360961928023945-o2r3vkEjvrPBUlECMJ5Vz2_mUWg_20061215.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 1, 2008 8:03 PM


This from my son:

Sorry to bother you Mr. Obama, Sir

I have these missing pieces that are holding me up, and I was wondering sir, if you could take time out of your busy schedule and help me out. You know no big deal, just some loose ends and things. I can't seem to get some information I need to wrap this up. These things seem to either be "locked" or "not available'. I'm sure it's just some oversight or glitch or something, so if you could you tell me where these things are. Could you help me please find these things, sir?

1. Occidental College records -- Not released

2. 2. Columbia College records -- Not released

3. 3. Columbia Thesis paper -- not available, locked down by faculty

4. 4. Harvard College records -- Not released, locked down by faculty

5. 5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released

6. 6. Medical records -- Not released

7. 7. Illinois State Senate schedule -- "not available"

8. 8. Law practice client list -- Not released

9. 9. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate - - Not released

10.10. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth -- Not released

11.11. Harvard Law Review articles published -- None

12.12. University of Chicago scholarly articles -- None

13.13. Your Record of baptism-- Not released or "not available"

14.14. Your Illinois State Senate records--"not available"

You couldn't get a job at McDonalds and become district manager after 143 days of experience. You couldn't become chief of surgery after 143 days of experience of being a surgeon. You couldn't get a job as a teacher and be the superintendent after 143 days of experience. You couldn't join the military and become a colonel after 143 days of experience. You couldn't get a job as a reporter and become the nightly news anchor after 143 days of experience.

BUT.... 'From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the Senate. That's how many days the Senate was actually in session and working. After 143 days of work experience, Obama believed he was ready to be Commander In Chief, Leader of the Free World.... 143 days. We all have to start somewhere. The senate is a good start, but after 143 days, that's all it is - a start. AND, strangely, a large sector of the American public is okay with this and campaigning for him. We wouldn't accept this in our own line of work, yet some are okay with this for the President of the United States of America? Come on folks, we are not voting for the next American Idol!"

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 8:04 PM


I think we should all start reciting the Litany of Our Lady of Victory.

Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.
God, the Father of Heaven. Have mercy on us.
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world. Have mercy on us.
God, the Holy Spirit. Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, One God. Have mercy on us.

(The response for all of the following is: Pray for us.)

Our Lady of Victory,
Victorious daughter of the Father,
Victorious Mother of the Son,
Victorious Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Victorious servant of the Holy Trinity,
Victorious in your Immaculate Conception,
Victorious in crushing the serpent's head,
Victorious over all the children of Adam,
Victorious over all enemies,
Victorious in your response to the Angel Gabriel,
Victorious in your wedding to St. Joseph,
Victorious in the birth of Christ,
Victorious in the flight to Egypt,
Victorious in your exile,
Victorious in your home at Nazareth,
Victorious in finding Christ at the temple,
Victorious in the mission of your Son,
Victorious in His passion and death,
Victorious in His Resurrection and Ascension,
Victorious in the Coming of the Holy Spirit,
Victorious in your sorrows and joys,
Victorious in your glorious Assumption,
Victorious in the angels who remained faithful,
Victorious in the happiness of the saints,
Victorious in the message of the prophets,
Victorious in the testimony of the patriarchs,
Victorious in the zeal of the apostles,
Victorious in the witness of the evangelists,
Victorious in the wisdom of the doctors,
Victorious in the deeds of the confessors,
Victorious in the triumph of all holy women,
Victorious in the faithfulness of the martyrs,
Victorious in your powerful intercession,
Victorious under your many titles,
Victorious at the moment of death.

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Have mercy, O Lord.
Pray for us, blessed Lady of Victory. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Posted by: Kristen at November 1, 2008 8:07 PM


Obama has not spread the wealth to his close aunt.

She's an illegal alien living in a Boston slum:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79743

Posted by: Jasper at November 1, 2008 8:10 PM


Jasper,

The slumlord even referred to her as an "exlempary" slum resident. Apparently she can't find a political fixer like Rezko to help her get a good deal on a house like her nephew Barack could.
The poor soul walks with a metal stick. I wonder if this is just a piece of pipe she picked up.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 8:31 PM


YLT 8:03PM

Zogby has been polling since 1984. How has the man stayed in business if he is so inept?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 8:35 PM


HisMan, 8:04PM

Don't you realize experience just isn't important?
I'm sure you would agree that experience doesn't matter when choosing your surgeon, attorney, or financial advisor. After all, people with experience in these areas aren't always the most competent people so maybe an inexperienced person would be preferable. I've honestly heard this rationale for supporting Obama.
I have yet to hear from an Obama supporter exactly what his credentials are.
Even Senator Joe Lieberman, a statesman I truly respect, gave a dissertation on Obama that needed only a celestial choir to make it complete. Does Lieberman, a Jew, know of the award Obama's church gave Louis Farakkan, a man who called Judaism a "gutter religion".
Do the Kennedys, supporters of Obama, know his buddy Bill Ayers dedicated a book to Sirhan Sirhan, the killer of Robert Kennedy?
I can only think of the Germans and their transfixed, hypnotic faces as Hitler led them to their destruction. I can relate to the German minority that could only shout in the wind in despair and watch it happen.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 8:54 PM


Joan, 6:51p: Very interesting. Sure would love to see that mailer. If it's not too much trouble, mail it to Jill Stanek, P. O. Box 285, Mokena, IL 60448. Thanks in advance if you'll be willing to do that.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 1, 2008 8:54 PM


I am getting married, though. :D

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 6:18 PM
------

Congratulations Leah!

Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 1, 2008 8:56 PM


Thanks for posting that, Kristen. I'll try to say that before bedtime tonight.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 1, 2008 8:57 PM


Leah,

My congragulations and very best wishes.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:11 PM


Obama can't prove he's a natural born US citizen? His mother is from Kansas. That makes him a natural born US citizen. I'm pretty sure the entire world and the Bush administration would make sure his campaign were over had he not been a US citizen. It's like some of you just make up things instead of actually reading??

And, I agree with Joan. I am pro-life, but no child anywhere needs to see pictures of dead babies. What if that went to a woman who just had a miscarriage or a stillborn? Do they need to see that? Words are okay, but unless you know exactly who will see the picture--pictures are unfair.

With the whole "Obama's aunt" thing, this goes back to reading. The last time he even saw his aunt was when he was in Kenya when he was ten years old.
All the money she donated to his campaign ($265) has been given back because it is true she is a non-U.S. citizen and therefore cannot donate to a campaign. Also, no one can be sure she's an illegal alien because the Immigration and Customs spokeswomen said that information is illegal to disclose to anyone. In fact, the Dept. of Homeland Security is looking into the fact that someone from the McCain campaign or Bush administration leaked that information, which would be illegal.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:15 PM


I forgot to mention, my mom is a psychologist and my dad is an emergency room doctor. I am currentyly attending the University of Illinois. My aunt, who lives in New Mexico got her kids taken away by the state, does drugs, and has been in and out of prison. Does that reflect poorly on ME?

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:18 PM


Josephine,

I saw a picture of Obama with his aunt Zeutuni, who he claims he was very close to. I believe it was in Kenya, and he was at very least a college student, maybe older. Certainly not a child.
When did this woman arrive in the US and did her nephew know she was here?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:22 PM


Yeah, November 1, 2008 Today is my Birthday! I am happy and sad. The Happy part is obvious I am celebrating another year, thank you for my parents and our Lord. I am sad because I told my brother about the 22 weeks case and other born alive infants and he did not believed me he said is all a hoax and he asked my to stop sending him anymore emails with this info. This hurts me greatly that a person I love so much wont even give it a thought, when to me this act is so devastating and gruesome that I ask the Lord forgiveness for each breath I take after having being a part of the abortion movement when I was younger.

My aunt also refused to belive this is going on in our country, I am so hurn my family member don't believe such an act is being done to our infants. And like I always explain, I choose abortion in the past and I remember all the girls were Crying in the process is abortion is so right WHY do most Women cry AND WEEP during an abortion process????? Why do we cry so.. when we are aborting.

I feel so alone, like most people Believe Abortion is right and they don't have a chance to see the pictures that I have seen. Oh Lord, Jesus please heal this pain that I have in my heart.
Lord Jesus please come and rescue me from this pain and please restore my hope to fight for the unborn children.

I am now conviced that my NEXT album will be dedicated to the PRO LIFE Movement and information. I am certain that this is the message OUR LORD wants me to give to the audience.

I will do all the right steps to get money together to get in to the studio. Meanwhile, thank you Lord for taking the bandages out of my eyes. I can see clearly now, what the right path is. I am so sorry other people can't see it. But thank you anyways Lord for choosing me above everybody to see the truth. The real truth about abortion. Thank you Lord I am born again. Please wash all my sins and restore my soul.

To everyone hugs, and Jill again Congratulation for the great work you are doing. You are someone I look up to.

Your friend here in Miami, Florida
elsa marina cruz 11/01/08 Pssss today is my birtday.....

Posted by: Elsa Marina Cruz at November 1, 2008 9:23 PM


And, I agree with Joan. I am pro-life, but no child anywhere needs to see pictures of dead babies. What if that went to a woman who just had a miscarriage or a stillborn? Do they need to see that? Words are okay, but unless you know exactly who will see the picture--pictures are unfair.

Try telling an aborted baby just how "unfair" the world is....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 9:26 PM


The unborn baby has NO way to communicate to the outside world. They are silent victims. We are their voices. If a picture makes a person realize what abortion does to another human being than that is good. In my experience a 5 year old child immediately sees the horror of abortion and knows what it is - the death of a little person.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 9:41 PM


RE: Response
Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 2:15 PM

Dear Joan;
Please show more respect towards your persona, and stop trying to defame Jill. Unlike your opinion, lots of people are glad to know what is going on in our country in regards to Abortion. And also if your daughter would have seen the picture, maybe one day when the time was right you could have sat down with her and explain what the abortion does.

But you see you did not have the opportunity to be enlightened and you will perhaps never have the conversation with your daughter about abortion and how it KILLS.

So please around of applause FOR JILL STANEK maybe not from you but I asure you our LORD is clapping at JIll and all the angels in heave are singing a song in her name . JILL STANEK IS A HERO. God Bless you all.

Your friend in Miami, FL Elsa Marina Cruz ps Today is my birthday!!! yeahhhhhhh. Happy birthday to me......

Posted by: Elsa Marina Cruz at November 1, 2008 9:41 PM


RE: Response
Posted by: joan dibbs at November 1, 2008 2:15 PM

Dear Joan;
Please show more respect towards your persona, and stop trying to defame Jill. Unlike your opinion, lots of people are glad to know what is going on in our country in regards to Abortion. And also if your daughter would have seen the picture, maybe one day when the time was right you could have sat down with her and explain what the abortion does.

But you see you did not have the opportunity to be enlightened and you will perhaps never have the conversation with your daughter about abortion and how it KILLS.

So please around of applause FOR JILL STANEK maybe not from you but I asure you our LORD is clapping at JIll and all the angels in heave are singing a song in her name . JILL STANEK IS A HERO. God Bless you all.

Your friend in Miami, FL Elsa Marina Cruz ps Today is my birthday!!! yeahhhhhhh. Happy birthday to me......

Posted by: Elsa Marina Cruz at November 1, 2008 9:41 PM


You could say a child sees the murder of a person and that lets them know what it is. So, it's okay if a child sees a picture of a person that has been murdered? I mean, it shows them you shouldn't murder.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:42 PM


Pictures are unfair? Are you serious?

If I had my way, on Monday night, every single TV channel in America would show the medical drawings of partial birth abortion, along with some photos of the actual results of it.

Abortion is a worse human rights catastrophe than slavery and the Holocaust combined. COMBINED! To pretend it doesn't exist or that it's not that big of a deal is to turn a blind eye to the endless slaughter of the most innocent human beings.

CHILDREN ARE BEING MURDERED WITH THE FULL CONSENT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. Don't tell me that other children should have this truth hidden from them.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 9:44 PM


Anon,

I'm just curious as to how such a destitute woman, living in the Boston slum for the last five years, can travel so easily between the two countries.
Apparently she was discussed often and with great affection in his book "Dreams From My Father" so I suspect he met her more than once.
She was referred to as "granny" since she raised Barack Obama's father.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:49 PM



I would think if Obama knew his beloved aunt was in the US he could find a political fixer like Rezko to give her a good deal on a home.
I think the poor soul deserves better than to live in a slum.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:51 PM


Fine. But if children can't have THIS truth hidden for them then show them pictures of murdered people. Show them pictures of women being raped. Because please, PLEASE don't pretend the death of a baby is more important than the death of a full grown person. So by YOUR logic, children should be allowed to see murder and rape because IT'S JUST SHOWING THEM THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD.

CHILDREN don't NEED to know everything. So YOU can let your children know Santa isn't real, that dreams some dreams DON'T come true, that people get raped, and beat, and murdered, that innocent babies DIE, but I think it's WRONG to make a child think about it! That needs to come LATER when they UNDERSTAND.

By the way,My mother's family moved from Germany to America in 1954. They are all Jewish. So, please don't compare abortion to the holocaust. You can say it's equal, but how DARE you say abortion is a worse catastrophe than the holocaust! That is totally irresponsible for you to say that.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:54 PM


Elsa Marina,

A very happy birthday. May you have many more.
Between you and me, quantos anos tiene usted?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:55 PM


ABORTION IS WORSE THAN THE HOLOCAUST, JOSEPHINE. Don't pull that "I'm Jewish" crap on me, either! I'm a Polish Catholic; 3 million of us were murdered by Hitler, too, AND DON'T YOU DARE FORGET THAT!

Other forms of murder are not legal. Abortion is the slaughter of over 48,000,000 completely innocent human beings in America alone since 1973. With the FULL CONSENT of the government. There has never been anything which comes close to being as atrocious as this.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 9:59 PM


You could say a child sees the murder of a person and that lets them know what it is. So, it's okay if a child sees a picture of a person that has been murdered? I mean, it shows them you shouldn't murder.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:42 PM

We don't go out of our way to show children pictures of murdered people becuase most of us I hope, would agree that murder is unjust. So we can get that across to a child. You don't go around killing people.
However, the unborn are hidden people and very small and very helpless. So some people believe that becauase of these qualities, it is ok to kill them. Since many are unwilling at acknowledge that a human person is being killed, those against abortion, have turned to pictures to show the humanity of the unborn.
In fact, this tactic was used by those fighting for rights for blacks. Pictures of lynchings were posted showing what a lynching actually was. People saw what it did to ordinary people who just happened to have dark skin.

If a child sees a picture of an aborted baby, then as an adult you can discuss the fact that some people willingly kill their unborn children out of mere convenience. Of course, if you support abortion, then this picture is likely to make you feel very uncomfortable. I mean, just how do you go about telling your child that it is a woman's right to do this? I think it's a rather hard sell....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 9:59 PM


You obviously didn't read his book... his father had a HUGE family and when Obama spoke of his aunt he called her "Auntie Zeituni" not "Grannie"...

If you read her interview in the London Times, you will see where she said herself that she has traveled back and forth between the US and Kenya since 1975.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 9:59 PM


Josephine,

Are you aware that Generals Patton and Eisenhower were so horrified by the death camps and outraged at the apathy of the townspeople living nearby that they forced the German townspeople, this included men, women, children, and old people, to march through the death camps and see first hand its horrors and the piles of dead bodies. I understand the mayor and his wife went home and hung themselves after the forced tour.
Do you feel the generals were wrong to do this?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:00 PM


Hey John, you should read The Deluge by Henryk Sienkiewicz - it is fantastic. About how the Polish nation (then comprising of Ukraine and Lithuania) defeated the Tartars. He won the Noble Prize for this piece of literature. It is about 1800 pages long (a trilogy).

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:05 PM


If you wnat to see an awesome move of God going on in California right now, real time, go to:

www.God.tv and tune in online to The Call being held in San Diego.

C'mon all of us who are brothers and sisters in Christ united to defeat this evil movement of Barack Obama.

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:06 PM


Question, Josephine. Is the murder of one single child equally as bad as the Holocaust? If you can answer this question honestly, I think you'll understand my point.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 10:06 PM


Josephine,

I stand corrected, my apologies. The family geneology is a little hard to follow. "Granny" was Obama's grandfather's third wife who helped raise Obama's father, at least that's the best I can make sense of it.
I believe she travelled but how did she wind up in a Boston slum? Certainly travel isn't cheap or free, the woman had to have gotten the money from someone or had plenty of her own.
From the picture I saw of her she looked like a simple village woman.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:09 PM


Mary: I agree. I don't know how she got the money, but by all accounts her and Obama are not in regular contact. However she got her money has no bearing on him, just like if my aunt had money it could be for any number of reasons. Just because she has a rich nephew doesn't mean he's giving her money. And, as I pointed out, there is no prove she's here illegally, only that she is not a US citizen, which doesn't equal illegal.

And John: The murder of any person is wrong. I don't care if it's a baby still in the womb or a 50 year old woman. To call ONE murder worse than another murder is ridiculous though. Children aren't more important than adults, just like adults aren't more important than children.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:13 PM


Josephine,

At what age do you plan to tell your children about abortion?
If you tell them it's murder, then they don't need to see pictures (like in your example). If you don't tell them it's murder, how else will they know if you leave it up to society to tell them?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Marina,

Feliz Cumpleanos!
Es un dia mas especial - El Dia De Los Santos tambien! :-)

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 10:14 PM


Yes John, abortion is worse than the "Holocaust", not that Jews weren't innocent vitims of a maniac, BUT because babies in the womb are totally innocent and incapable of defending themselves.

And God is really, really pissed that we have aborted over 1 billion of them worldwide.

I predicted this global depression on this site more than a year ago and I said God would move to avenge the shedding of innocent blood on this corrupt generation.

It's not too late. Keep Obama out of office. Return to God. Repent. Pray. Seek his face. NOW!!!

2 Chronicles 7:13-15 13 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15 Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:14 PM


To call ONE murder worse than another murder is ridiculous though. Children aren't more important than adults, just like adults aren't more important than children.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:13 PM

the problem with this Josephine, is that there are laws to protect adults and born children but none to protect the children in the womb.
The womb is the most dangerous place to be today.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:17 PM


Josephine,

Like you its no issue to me how she got her money or if Obama ever subsidized her in any way.
I just wonder if he knew his aunt lived in a slum and if he ever made any effort to help her.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:18 PM


If you want to see an awesome move of God going on in California right now, real time, go to:

www.God.tv and tune in online to The Call being held in San Diego.

C'mon all of us who are brothers and sisters in Christ united to defeat this evil movement of Barack Obama.

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:26 PM


So, the laws protected innocent Jewish children in the holocaust? LAWS protected them from being tortured and dying?

I DO believe it was the government that caused it. So don't you dare say "they had laws protecting them".. because that is ridiculous!

I mean, really.. have you ever sat through a history class?


And Mary, I don't know about you.. but if my fully grown and able aunt were living in a crappy apartment, I don't think I'd step in and support her financially. I would help if she were.. I don't know, homeless.. but it's not his job to fix everyone of his relatives living conditions, especially considering how large his family is.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:26 PM


If you want to see an awesome move of God going on in California right now, real time, go to:

www.God.tv and tune in online to The Call being held in San Diego.

C'mon all of us who are brothers and sisters in Christ united to defeat this evil movement of Barack Obama.


Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:26 PM

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:29 PM


So, the laws protected innocent Jewish children in the holocaust? LAWS protected them from being tortured and dying?

I DO believe it was the government that caused it. So don't you dare say "they had laws protecting them".. because that is ridiculous!

I mean, really.. have you ever sat through a history class?
---------------------------------------
My dear, at least there will be some protection for these children rather than the state slaughtering them using taxpayer monies.
Why are you so irate? Because you saw the truth of what abortion is? Abortion kills babies, Josephine. That's the nuts and bolts of it. We don't like it and we want it stopped. 1.5 million dead babies per year is 1.5 million too many.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:29 PM


Josephine, if one murder is as bad as the 10 million murders of the Holocaust, then why do we bother to talk about how bad the Holocaust was? After all, according to you, one murder = 10 million murders. Every day in America, people are murdered. So by your logic, every day something equal to the Holocaust happens in America.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 10:30 PM


If you want to see an awesome move of God going on in California right now, real time, go to:

www.God.tv and tune in online to The Call being held in San Diego.

C'mon all of us who are brothers and sisters in Christ united to defeat this evil movement of Barack Obama.


Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:26 PM

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 10:31 PM


I just read on Fox news that nudists are fighting to vote naked! Good grief! What IS the world coming too....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:35 PM


Josephine,

For me it would depend. I would offer help and at least try to situate her in a decent apt. If she were to persist in a lifestyle of drug or alcohol abuse or mismanagement of her money in spite of my help, I might say the heck with it.
Aunt Zeituni sounds like a nice lady though, at least her slumlord thinks so.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:38 PM


Patricia 10:35PM

What a hoot. From what I've seen of some of these nudists, they'd do us all a huge favor by keeping their clothes on. If you ain't got it, don't flaunt it!

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:39 PM


yeah Mary. That's really the only reason I'm not a nudist. There's already too much violence in the world.
Besides, Jill told me I can't post here if I"m nude.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:42 PM


And according to YOU murdering a child is worse than murdering an ADULT.

How can anyone on this site say one murder is worse than another and then talk about God?

Believe me, I know what abortion is and I'm pro-life.. but many of you are NOT pro-life, you're just anti-abortion and it makes me almost sick to my stomach to hear people talk about God, and then come back and say one murder is worse than another. It is totally disgusting to me...


And, let me point out AGAIN that it's been 35 years since Roe vs. Wade and we've had Republican presidents. And GUESS WHAT.. Roe vs. Wade is still intact.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:44 PM


Oh the horror, people are showing off their bodies! It's nudity, Particia. It's the human body. Don't you believe it was created in the image of God, or whatever? So why shouldn't it be visible?

Obama's between a rock and a hard place here. His aunt's illegal. If he has helped her, he was subverting the law, and you Repugs would come down hard on him. He didn't help her, and you're whining about him being heartless. Seriously, there's no way to win here.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 10:47 PM


No one's answering my question...

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 10:49 PM


Patricia, 10:42PM

I hear you. If I was one you'd see masses of people putting themselves out of their misery.
You mean we can't post in the nude? Now you tell me!!

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:50 PM


Human Abstract, good to see that Obama is willing to abandon his own flesh and blood because "Repugs", whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, might complain about it.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 10:51 PM


Wow, John, and you wonder why more people aren't pro-life? All you're doing is yelling at the poor woman.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 10:52 PM


Human Abstract, what do you care? Don't you have to hurry up and burn America to the ground so that you can defeat the "Repugs" and "Chimpy McHitlerBurton"?

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 10:53 PM


There's also the little fact that it's, you know, illegal and all that. He has more respect for the law than to do that; isn't that good thing?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 10:53 PM


Jo,

Four-thousand babies die each day in the USA by abortion.

The abortion issue is in the forefront of more people's minds now, than in the last 35 years. Change is coming, but we need McCain, not Obama as President. Otherwise, Planned Parenthood will have free reign with our tax dollars from Obama, their buddy and the effects will be felt for a long time.

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 10:54 PM


You're correct, anon. Which makes me wonder how it got released, and hope that they get punished.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 10:55 PM


Josephine: I don't buy the "I'm prolife you're anti abortion" crap ok!

I'm prolife period. There is no legal protection for unborn babies who can't picket clinics, politicians and stage demonstrations. Therefore some of us are compelled to speak on their behalf. Since proaborts went around stating that only a bunch of cells were removed during abortion, we used pictures to prove to people that it's not a bunch of cells but a very small, helpless child.
And there is now a Democratic candidate for President who not only believes that a woman has a "right" to kill her unborn child but that if the child survives the abortion it should be left to die. So what does that say about the demmed Dem's?

And Human Ab. I never said anything about the human body being bad. The human body is beautiful but since I believe in original sin and it's effects on all of us (including you!), clothes to cover us help to focus on the person that is and not on their physical attributes or lack thereof. This is the reason Adam and Eve covered up.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:56 PM


I would tell children about abortion when they're old enough to understand all the facts. A five year old doesn't understand a mother choosing to murder her baby. How would a child possibly grasp that?? I am nineteen years old pre-med student, so obviously, I believe I'm always right. (Even though I'm not)
However, I can honestly say that I didn't know about abortion until I was probably... ten, and my church does this thing where we line white crosses all around the entire town to represent the babies that had been aborted. I asked my mom what it meant and she explained. Honestly, I don't think I understood completely at THAT age. But a FIVE year old?!?

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:56 PM


You mean we can't post in the nude? Now you tell me!!

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 10:50 PM

Mary, I'm sorry we didn't tell you sooner. WE will all pause and wait while you go put some clothes on. Hopefully Human Abstract won't be upset about this....

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 10:59 PM


I'm sorry, but some of you are full of poop.

So we should elect McCain because Obama is going to "burn the country to the ground and let people murder babies" but it's okay that McCain wants to send MORE troops to Iraq? It's okay that under McCain's healthcare plans OLDER people that don't have much money will suffer?

I don't know why you say the abortion issue is on the forefront of people's mind... I mean, abortion rates are going DOWN. I'm sorry, and I hate to burst your bubble, but if a candidates stance on abortion is the ONLY reason you'd elect a president.. then you really shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:01 PM


HA, 10:47PM

Lighten up for heaven's sake. Patricia, like me, is just having a little fun.

Do we know for certain the woman is illegal?
Its looks better for Obama if he lets his aunt live in a slum than if he takes steps to help her? I'm sure in his position as a US senator he could have discreetly helped her get citizenship if that was an issue.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 11:02 PM


JOSEPHINE, you know what I'm talking about. You know that I'm talking about the number of abortions. 48,000,000 abortions - 48,000,000 slaughters with the consent of the US Government - since 1973. Millions, MILLIONS more have been done across the globe.

The world stood in opposition to Hitler's murder of 10,000,000 people. The world rose up and defeated him. And yet the world is SILENT about the murder of ONE BILLION unborn children through abortion.

And now you seem to be trying to justify support for pro-abortion Democrats by saying that Republicans have failed to outlaw abortion. Yet you completely ignore that every effort by pro-life Republicans to restrict abortion is opposed by pro-abortion Democrats. Roe v. Wade would be overturned already if pro-abortion politicians, most of them Democrats, had not stopped the appointment of Robert Bork. And pro-life Republicans had to fight tooth and nail to get anti-Roe Justices John Roberts and Sam Alito on the Supreme Court.

To say it simply - ABORTION WOULD BE ILLEGAL NOW IF NOT FOR THE EFFORTS OF PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS, AND THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM IN POWER ARE DEMOCRATS.

Barack Obama has said that his FIRST ACT as president would be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act into law, which would destroy all pro-life legislation passed in the last 35 years. He has also promised to nominate pro-abortion judges for the courts. THESE ARE THE FACTS.

JOSEPHINE, STOP PLAYING DUMB!!!!!!!!

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 11:03 PM


As I don't believe in Original Sin, I"m all for nudity. Big fan of it, in fact. Human bodies are all beautiful, regardless of weight, skin color, or body shape. I don't know about divinity, but my gods, people are beautiful.


Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 11:03 PM


My children understood at five. Not all the gory details of abortion to be sure. But they knew that some women killed their children. They saw pictures of unborn babies at various stages in the womb because I showed them and because some of them saw the ultrasounds of their siblings. And my eldest child inadvertantely saw his sister being born when he was 7. It was a home birth and he woke up.
If we can tell our kids today about gay sex in kindergarten, surely we can let them know about unborn children too.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:04 PM


Hey John--

Calm down there, buddy. Now, I would just like to point out an interesting little etymological note, re: the word "holocaust." Have your opinions on it, compare it to abortion, whatever. This is totally beside that.

The word "holocaust" comes from a Greek word meaning "burnt" and its meaning is "burnt offering." It is probably better to use the word "shoah" which is just a Hebrew word for calamity or disaster. Just FYI.

Thanks for the congratulations, Mary, Erin and Chris!

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:06 PM


Josephine are you a Obama Catholic supporter?

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:07 PM


Human Abstract: Amen! No one should be ashamed of their body! Not that that means you must go nude--clothing can make a body look very nice as well. But shame is silly. God gave everyone a beautiful body.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:08 PM


Patricia, to be more accurate, Josephine is a Democratic Party hack. She'd vote Dem even if they killed her own family.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 11:09 PM


Well, guess what.. Clinton's first act was to sign a law okay-ing partial birth abortions. I don't agree with that, and I think it's disgusting. However, Clinton will go down in history as being one of the BEST Presidents of all time. When you really get DOWN TO THE WIRE, it is NOT UP TO THE PRESIDENT. GUESS WHAT. EVEN IF ABORTION IS ILLEGAL, PEOPLE WILL FIND WAYS TO DO IT. They will just use UNSAFE and possibly MORE PAINFUL ways. Abortion is AWFUL, but you can't DAMN a WHOLE NATION with four more years of an ignorant Republican president because of ONE ISSUE. You'd rather see SOLDIERS DIE than have abortion stay legal? ABORTION WILL ALWAYS EXIST. ALWAYS no matter WHAT the laws say. GUESS WHAT... people that are murdered have laws protecting them and they still DIE.

I absolutely CANNOT wait to take this to my poli sci class, because YOU are the kind of ignorant voter we talk about EVERY day!


BY THE WAY, telling a person to GO TO HELL isn't very Christian or Godlike, IS IT? So I sure as hell hope you don't think being pro-life gets you into Heaven, because you are OBVIOUSLY not Christ-loving, sir. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:11 PM


Hatred breeds hatred, John. It is a vicious cycle. I love you, though, so it's okay. No matter what you say, you are a fellow human being and I love you. You don't even have to love me back.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:13 PM


I would vote Dem even if they killed my family? Holy crap dude, you're freaking insane, aren't you??

I'm sure you'd vote for Hitler as long as he didn't touch babies??

Yes, I'm a Catholic Obama supporter. What of it? There are a LOT of us.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:13 PM


Josephine, you make me a little bit more proud of my generation. : )

Posted by: human Abstract at November 1, 2008 11:14 PM


Josephine,

You're nineteen? You are much too angry for such a young adult.

Keep some of that spunk, though. If you are going to go to medical school, you are going to have to put on a tough skin, because they are going to try to convince you that abortion is fine, no big deal. You have the right to say "no, I will not participate", but it still won't be easy, with peer pressure and all. Now, if Obama is elected, mosy likely you will not be able to choose if you want to participate in an abortion or not. Obama will enact FOCA. Please look it up if you are not familiar with it.

John McCain wants to end the war, when the time is right. What does Obama know about war? Nothing.

I hope you become a pro-life leader in a medical field some day. God bless you!

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 11:14 PM


Oh, John. You make me giggle.

Posted by: Erin at November 1, 2008 11:15 PM


"Yes, I'm a Catholic Obama supporter. What of it? There are a LOT of us."

And unfortunately, you just lost any respect from anybody on this board with that statement. :(

Posted by: Rae at November 1, 2008 11:16 PM


Love, John. What would Jesus do?

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:16 PM


Josephine: HOW do you reconcile your Catholic teachings and faith with your support of Obama?

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:16 PM


John 11:14PM

That post is despicable and appalling.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 11:19 PM


I'm sorry John, but did I say my family were democrats? I don't believe I did, sir. :) Please, keep condemning people. I'm sure it will make God love you more, buddy. ;)

And Janet, as much respect as I will lose for saying this--I won't deal with issues like abortion because I will work in a private practice that my father owns. Trust me, I have defended my pro-life choice very much already in school. But thank you for your support. I only have 6 more years.. (Ha!)

By the by, I am in the Illinois National Guard, and it terrifies me that McCain will win and I will have to leave school and go to Iraq. It honestly terrifies me.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:19 PM


John: you can't wish people go to hell. Not nice, not Christian. I understand your strong feelings.
And Rita your statement was beyond the pale - it was cruel and heartless. The Polish people have suffered a great deal and they are the only nation standing against the EU on abortion. They singlehandedly save Europe from being overrun by the Muslims in the 1300's.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:19 PM


Dear actually pro-life people on here,

I know I'm probably upsetting you now (again), so I'm outta here (again).

As for you fake pro-life liars, which includes Josephine, you know where you can go. You're the lowest of the low; at least the other pro-aborts admit that they're pro-aborts.

Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 1, 2008 11:19 PM


Mary, I agree.

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 11:20 PM


Uhm, there are many, many, MANY Catholic Obama supporters. I attend the biggest Catholic church on campus and they have a Catholic for Obamas group. IN FACT, the POPE has said that people need to look at more than abortion when voting. The POPE has let everyone know that he is NOT against Obama. But, if you think you know more than the Pope..

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:21 PM


I can understand your fear Josephine (well maybe not because I'm not facing it - but I imagine it would be pretty awful).
Nevertheless, the implications for America are nasty if Obama wins.
I agree though that it was a mistake for America to get involved in Iraq. They should have done the job the first time around like General Schwartkopff wanted. (whatever his name was!)

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:22 PM


Woah, woah. "overrun by Muslims?" Oh yes. Good thing those crazy proselytizing people didn't get their grip on Europe and make everyone bow to Makkah. Hamdulillah. Because... that's how Islam works???

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:23 PM


Josephine:

IT IS YOU AND YOUR LIBERAL PROFS THAT ARE THE REAL THREATS TO OUR COUNTRY FOT THEY LIVE AS IF THERE IS NO GOD.

ABORTIONS RATES ARE NOT GOING DOWN...THAT'S A LIBERAL CROCK. WHAT ABOUT WORLDWIDE? DO YOU THINK IF WE LEGALIZED MURDER THAT MURDER RATES WOULD GO DOWN. THIS IS PREPOSTEROUS.

You say you believe in God? What do you think a holy God thinks about abortion? You think He'S going to continue t allow it without a response to the shedding of innocent blood on our land.

Or perhaps the God you believe in is a weak, anemic and distant God?

You do not understand who God is or how he deals with nations that deal unjustly with the innocent.

ABORTION IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN THIS ELECTION BECAUSE IF IS NOT MADE ILLEGAL GOD WILL DESTROY OUR COUNTRY.

Do you tink 9/11 was an accidnet? Do think this worldwide global econmic collapse is an accident? Perhaps God is trying to get people like you to start paying attention or is your little country club life immune from God's reach?

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 11:23 PM


Direct me to a statement where the Pope states that he supports Obama.
The bishops have presented the teaching quite clear stating that the issue of abortion is paramount. There can be no other issues if America is abortion so many of it's future citizens.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:24 PM


I am not pro-abortion. I am pro-life. I'm going to guess someone who tells another person they've never met that they should burn in hell..doesn't sound very pro-life. They sound ANTI-ABORTION. I'm anti-abortion, but there are SOOO many other things to think about. The world isn't divided into pro-life and pro-choice. By the way, JOHN, at least I have a vagina so I can say "I WILL NEVER HAVE AN ABORTION". I'm pretty sure that makes me pro-life.
I would like to call you a long string of bad words, but I really don't believe in that because for all I know you're a nice person that just happens to be crazy. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:25 PM


Anemic? HisMan, did you just use the term anemic as an insult?

Posted by: Erin at November 1, 2008 11:25 PM


Leah: if you understood just what it meant to be enslaved by the hordes of Muslims, especially for women you would not being making the statements you are.
It was the Polish experience in dealing with these barbarians and their great courage that saved Europe. There was no other army as crazy as the Poles to take on these people. European history might be very differnt today.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:28 PM


Josephine, 11:19PM

With all respect to your military service, and I thank you for it, when you signed up you put yourself at your country's service.
Just as police and firefighters put themselves at risk for us, so do our servicepeople.
However it is a choice and one you made.
I don't want to see you or any serviceperson shipped to Iraq and I believe McCain is the one to bring home the troops, which I am convinced he will do.

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 11:35 PM


Uh... Patricia if you knew ANYTHING about Islam you would not be making such ignorant statements. I am CONVERTING to Islam for my wedding. Islam, naturally, has been abused, as have all religions. It is so unfortunate how people view Islam as sexist and full of terror. In fact, hijab in Islam is meant to PROTECT women from sexism and PROTECT us from being viewed as objects. As for forced conversion if Europe were to be "taking over" by Muslims--it specifically states in the Qur'an that forcing people to convert isn't allowed. Don't forget that while the rest of Europe was suffering from disease and poverty in the Medieval Ages, the south of Spain--the region occupied by Muslims--was in a golden age. And people were left to practice their desired religion.

Of course, one cannot hope to change a determinedly ignorant mind, but... just in case.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:35 PM


maybe Josephine, but many conservative and evangelical Christians are having larger families than liberal Democrats. Many, many more kids.
It will be interesting to see just who IS running the country 40 years from now.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:36 PM


Josephine,

I believe it is people like you who pose the biggest danger to unborn children. You're position is disgraceful. I respect George Tiller more than you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACm5BRK0OiA&eurl=http://www.fathercorapi.com/election.aspx

Posted by: Jasper at November 1, 2008 11:38 PM


It's not "you're", it's "your" Jasper. :)

Posted by: Rae at November 1, 2008 11:39 PM


Jo,

The USCCB document on Faithful Citizenship, specifically outlines voting guidelines for Catholics. They must not vote for a candidate who will support abortion. If both candidates do, they must vote for the one who will do the least to support it. Please read it before casting your vote. :-)

http://www.usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/FCStatement.pdf

Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 11:41 PM


McCain has SAID he will send MORE troops to Iraq. Don't thank me for my military service-- I did it because school is expensive and I don't want my dad to hold it over my head. :)

However, under Obama he will not only start WITHDRAWING troops but will also make the effort to not take kids out of college to go. Many National Guard soldiers aren't in school, but under McCain, we're all the same. I could go overseas as easily as someone who is in the guard so they don't have to work. Now, don't get me wrong.. if it's something I believed in, I wouldn't have a problem delaying school and going. Unfortunately, this war is wrong and innocent people are dying. But apparently, to most on this board, soldiers dying is okay as long as it's not babies.


Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:42 PM


Patricia, ever seen the movie 'Idiocracy?'

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 1, 2008 11:43 PM


My position on abortion is awful? The fact that I think it's wrong? Please, you can say my politics are awful (you'd be wrong, but you could say it) but to say it's awful that I'm against abortion.. well, that's just weird sir. :)

And, as I mentioned, the largest Catholic church on campus has a group completely devoted to Catholics supporting Obama. At some point, you have to realize what the important issues are. Please, look up comments the Pope has made if you don't believe me. ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:46 PM


People seem to forget that there are more issues that Obama and McCain have opinions on besides abortion.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:47 PM


Josephine:

Wrong again. There is not going to be any country left to run with peopel like you supporting Obama.

Repent of your wickedness.

Posted by: HisMan at November 1, 2008 11:47 PM


HisMan- you should seriously have your own late night talk show. It would be HIGH-larious.

Posted by: Rae at November 1, 2008 11:48 PM


Leah: I truly feel sorry for YOU. Is your fiance a traditional Muslim? And you mentioned you hadn't told your father. Is this why?

I just read a very interesting article tonight by a Muslim scholar on the hajib. He thinks the hajib is horrible and an affront to a woman. He wrote about how the head is the most important part of the body because it has the face and carries in it the brain. Yet, the hajib covers the woman's head. Why? According to this Muslim, because it is like the woman has no head, no brain. The man is her head, her brain. He rules her.
The hajib is NOT worn to protect women from being viewed as objects. It is a form of false modesty and false protection and used as a control by Muslim men. The women are not allowed to be seen by any other man than their husband. It is completely ridiculous. A woman cannot LOOK at a member of the opposite sex. Even a sideways glance or an inadvertent glance could be deadly. If she does she can be beaten or worse divorced and abandoned.

Oh, yes and try telling the Christians in the Middle East and in Singapore and Malayasia how they are not forced to convert. Try telling young girls who have been kidnapped married to men 40 yrs their senior and forced to become Muslim how this practice is NOT suppose to be part of the Muslim faith.

I have no desire to ever belong to this "religion".

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:49 PM


People like me? Please, explain what you mean. I'd love to know what you know about people like me?

Well educated? Young? Well to-do? Soldiers? Pro-life? Open minded? Catholic?

Please, tell me what YOU know about me that would make this country awful? :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:51 PM


Hah! Actually, no, Patricia. We are both converting.

You are a hateful, ignorant, silly woman. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever hear in my life, re: hijab. Lots of religions (including some sects of -gasp- Christianity) in which women cover their head. At the very least, in church.

I feel very sad because you will be forever ignorant of something because you are unwilling to look beyond the tip of your nose. How shallow.

I love you anyhow, as a fellow human. I hope one day you overcome your ignorance.

I haven't told my father because I am very young to be getting married.

God bless your soul, Patricia.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:54 PM


@Patricia: I know many Muslim girls who do not wear the hijab. They wear normal clothes.

Of course, they're Indian, and I get the feeling that Indian Muslims practice Islam differently...

Posted by: Rae at November 1, 2008 11:54 PM


"I am CONVERTING to Islam for my wedding"

Leah, run the other way now while you still have a chance.

Posted by: Jasper at November 1, 2008 11:58 PM


Josephine: show where the pope has stated Obama is ok.

Posted by: Patricia at November 1, 2008 11:58 PM


Rae: Not all Muslim women wear Hijab. It's really not that big of a deal--sexism only exists when women are forced against their will (eg: Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc).

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:58 PM


"Please, tell me what YOU know about me that would make this country awful? :)"

You already told us.

Posted by: Jasper at November 1, 2008 11:59 PM


Jasper, WHAT are you talking about? You know nothing, you silly boy.

Posted by: Leah at November 1, 2008 11:59 PM


Patricia: Why can you not look it up yourself? It's all over Google. :)


What I told you makes me awful? What about me is it?
I bet it's the fact that I'm a soldier, right? Because everyone who loves McCain makes it pretty clear you hate soldiers.

Ooooh is it because I'm well educated? Yeah, I hate people like that. They suck.

Is it because my family has money? Yeah... doctors are bad people, you're right..

Is it that fact that I don't believe babies should be aborted? I guess you're right there.. I'm a crappy person.


So, tell me.. have you always hated America? ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 12:02 AM


Okay, kids. Computer's dying. I'll finish talking with you lot tomorrow. Plus,I've got a sneaking suspicion that the fiance has locked himself outside. -sigh...- :)

Posted by: Leah at November 2, 2008 12:03 AM


"Jasper, WHAT are you talking about?"

Leah,

I wouldn't convert to Islam if I were you. Please don't.

Posted by: Jasper at November 2, 2008 12:03 AM


Thanks Leah. But I still feel very sorry for both of you. And I'm not quite as ignorant of the Muslim faith as you think.

I remind you that was under Christianity that women were first treated as persons. But I think maybe all the indoctrination you've been given in school against Christianity has likely done it's work very well.
And Yes, I know many Muslim girls who wear normal clothes too. But to traditional Muslims, these girls are corrupted.
And btw, I meet many muslims in my work. The women arrive always accompanied by a man (father or husband or brother) and they NEVER do the talking. They want to talk to me, but look away and shake their head when I try to engage them. In other words, they CANT! They aren't allowed. This is in Canada.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:05 AM


@Leah: Thanks! And congrats on your future nuptials (I think that's the right word?) :D

Posted by: Rae at November 2, 2008 12:05 AM


Patricia: Why can you not look it up yourself? It's all over Google. :)


What I told you makes me awful? What about me is it?
I bet it's the fact that I'm a soldier, right? Because everyone who loves McCain makes it pretty clear you hate soldiers.

Ooooh is it because I'm well educated? Yeah, I hate people like that. They suck.

Is it because my family has money? Yeah... doctors are bad people, you're right..

Is it that fact that I don't believe babies should be aborted? I guess you're right there.. I'm a crappy person.


So, tell me.. have you always hated America? ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 12:02 AM

who ARE you addressing here, Josephine.
You can prove to me any time that the pope specifically supports Obama. I doubt it. Many of the ideas of helping the poor, concerning just war etc the pope supports. But the Pope Benedict would NEVER come out in favour of Obama especially when this man can't decide when life begins because it's above his pay grade. Please!

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:08 AM


@Patricia: I work with many Muslims (ZOMG even an Iranian! 2 actually!) and a lot of them are *female*. I go to college and I've had several Somali girls in every class I'm in and they're never with a male relative. They dress traditionally, but they're usually in groups of all females.

I've asked a lot of them what they thought about wearing a hijab or a head-scarf and most of them say that they do not mind it at all. They say it shows their dedication to their faith.

Posted by: Rae at November 2, 2008 12:09 AM


oh btw Josephine, you are NOT a crappy person.
:-D

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:09 AM


That's fine Rae. But my experience is different.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:11 AM


I've got to go. Time to get some shut-eye.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:11 AM


I NEVER said the Pope SUPPORTED Obama. Don't you dare put words in my mouth, ma'am! If you look at what I said, I said the Pope is not AGAINST Obama. The Pope has never endorsed a candidate-- they believe it to be wrong. :)


So, check before you say things. That's what's wrong with most Republicans though, not just you. :)

The rest of my post, after the first sentence, was directed at Hisman and Jasper.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 12:12 AM


BTW: I sincerely hope the mods delete the nasty John and Rita posts.
They shouldn't stay up.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:13 AM


@Patricia: I would second that sentiment.

Posted by: Rae at November 2, 2008 12:14 AM


Josephine,

Did you watch any of the video I posted?

Posted by: Jasper at November 2, 2008 12:14 AM


Josephine: you are rationalizing your support for Obama. It doesn't jive with your Catholic faith. No Catholic can in good conscience support this man. I think you will find it very difficult to practice medicine, even in private practice if Obama passes FOCA. You will not have the freedom of conscience to do what your faith teaches you as morally right.
Have a nice evening...

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:17 AM


Sure didn't watch it. However, it's midnight and my live in boyfriend (yup, I'm a terrible liberal so young and living with a boy) is ready to go out. Guess you'll have to find someone else to call a sinner and bad person. ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 12:18 AM


Josephine is just a phoney trying to get on peoples nerves...

Posted by: Jasper at November 2, 2008 12:23 AM


Joesephine, this passage is for you:

2 Peter 3 1This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." 5For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Leah, this passage is for you:

Glatians 1: 6 I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7 but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9 I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed.

10 Obviously, I’m not trying to win the approval of people, but of God. If pleasing people were my goal, I would not be Christ’s servant.

God is basically saying to you Leah that if you switch to Islam he will let you go to hell of your own choosing.

Posted by: HisMan at November 2, 2008 12:36 AM


My son created this website, please view it:

www.ObamaTruths.com

Posted by: HisMan at November 2, 2008 12:46 AM


Why do people care if Leah converts to Islam? Its her life and HER choice to make. We have freedom of religion in this country, something our country's founders strongly believed in. I think there are good people of ALL faiths. And people shouldn't be bashing Islam as far as "forced conversion"- look at the "Christianization" in the crusades! There are some pretty shady historical points in most of the major religions. And Josephine- stick to your beliefs. I agree with Rae about HisMan having his own show- sometimes I seriously read this blog just looking for his posts. He cracks me up! But, I hope that everyone, regardless of religion or political party, gets out and votes!

Posted by: Stef at November 2, 2008 12:53 AM


Elsa, 9:23p: Happy birthday! And do not despair. Keep trying and praying with your family.

Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 2, 2008 5:35 AM


Patrica is right about Christians in the middle east being threatened with converting. There was a special on EWTN about the plight of Christians in Iraq and I even read an article that said Christians who have lived in a certain part of the country (who have lived there for generations) were told to convert, leave or pay a fine.

Leah, all I say is be cautious. I'm sure your fiance is a decent man, but be cautious none the less.


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 8:44 AM


Sure didn't watch it. However, it's midnight and my live in boyfriend (yup, I'm a terrible liberal so young and living with a boy) is ready to go out. Guess you'll have to find someone else to call a sinner and bad person. ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 12:18 AM

ah, this explains much. I wonder just how long you will remain "prolife" Josephine.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 9:19 AM


Wow, the deterioration of this thread made me glad I wasn't up all night reading it. It's a little bit easier to take once I've had that extra hour of sleep. Guys, take a deep breath, the election's almost over. Seriously, it's going to be okay. Feel free to unclench at any time. It really will make you feel better.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 2, 2008 9:40 AM


Elizabeth: half of the posts have been deleted. It was very very nasty. There was a lot of hellfire and such goin on.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 9:41 AM


"What I told you makes me awful? What about me is it?
I bet it's the fact that I'm a soldier, right? Because everyone who loves McCain makes it pretty clear you hate soldiers."

Ridiculous.

Posted by: Janet at November 2, 2008 10:31 AM


Kristen, Thank you for this beautiful prayer. It bears repeating.

I think we should all start reciting the Litany of Our Lady of Victory.

Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, have mercy on us.
Christ, hear us. Christ, graciously hear us.
God, the Father of Heaven. Have mercy on us.
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world. Have mercy on us.
God, the Holy Spirit. Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, One God. Have mercy on us.

(The response for all of the following is: Pray for us.)

Our Lady of Victory,
Victorious daughter of the Father,
Victorious Mother of the Son,
Victorious Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Victorious servant of the Holy Trinity,
Victorious in your Immaculate Conception,
Victorious in crushing the serpent's head,
Victorious over all the children of Adam,
Victorious over all enemies,
Victorious in your response to the Angel Gabriel,
Victorious in your wedding to St. Joseph,
Victorious in the birth of Christ,
Victorious in the flight to Egypt,
Victorious in your exile,
Victorious in your home at Nazareth,
Victorious in finding Christ at the temple,
Victorious in the mission of your Son,
Victorious in His passion and death,
Victorious in His Resurrection and Ascension,
Victorious in the Coming of the Holy Spirit,
Victorious in your sorrows and joys,
Victorious in your glorious Assumption,
Victorious in the angels who remained faithful,
Victorious in the happiness of the saints,
Victorious in the message of the prophets,
Victorious in the testimony of the patriarchs,
Victorious in the zeal of the apostles,
Victorious in the witness of the evangelists,
Victorious in the wisdom of the doctors,
Victorious in the deeds of the confessors,
Victorious in the triumph of all holy women,
Victorious in the faithfulness of the martyrs,
Victorious in your powerful intercession,
Victorious under your many titles,
Victorious at the moment of death.

Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Have mercy, O Lord.
Pray for us, blessed Lady of Victory. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Posted by: Kristen at November 1, 2008 8:07 PM

Posted by: Janet at November 2, 2008 10:35 AM


"My son created this website, please view it:"
www.ObamaTruths.com

Posted by: HisMan at November 2, 2008 12:46 AM

Excellent resource!

Posted by: Janet at November 2, 2008 11:10 AM


Jasper: why not? If you're going to state any "facts" about Islam, I'll need you to back them up with reliable sources.

Patricia: If you weren't ignorant you wouldn't be saying such things. It is too bad your life is this way. "This is Canada"...I'm here too, and obviously you're deluded. I won't argue with you anymore, though. It's like talking to a brick wall.

Rae: Thank you so much!

Stef: I appreciate your sentiments very much.

If I convert and I discover that you are all right, there is noting preventing me from converting to something else, anyhow. Islam is in the spotlight these days, but don't forget that terrorists are not practicing a true Islam, where a Jihad is an inner struggle of faith. War is only permitted in Islam to defend, so there are many corrupt people out there. But Christians should remember to not concern themselves with the speck in their neighbour's eye when there is a log in their own.

Liz: Thank you for your concern. My fiance is NOT Muslim, though. We are both converting and we are reading the Qur'an and studying before we do (though this is not required). As for the forced conversion--its happening is very unfortunate, but it is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an! The same way you feel a true Christian would not support abortion, true Muslims would not force anyone to convert.

Posted by: Leah at November 2, 2008 11:15 AM


Leah,

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Posted by: Jasper at November 2, 2008 11:26 AM


How long I'm going to stay prolife? What, because I'm going to get pregnant because I live with a boy? Uhm... birthcontrol? It's pretty effective. ;)

Annddd... why is my statement about McCain hating soldiers ridiculous? Are YOU in the military? I go to drill two weekends a month and believe me, most military personnel feel the same way. Unless YOU spend time with MANY soldiers, uhmm... you really don't know how it is for us. :) (And don't forget, I'm a weekend soldier. The full time soldiers hate him more.)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 11:59 AM


Leah: stop invalidating other peoples experiences. Your choice to become Muslim is your choice. You accept what comes with that choice. But if you think that Islam is a benign religion you are sadly mistaken. History has proven it is not and current events have proven it is not. Maybe YOU are the one in need of facts and not validation for your choice.

Josephine: you have obviously comprised your beliefs as evidenced by your lifestyle. You may call yourself Catholic if you wish but please stop insinuating that you are a "Catholic" who supports Obama. You are NOT. You are a lapsed Catholic. You are a liberal who choses the parts of your faith to believe in. I think you support Obama because he validates your lifestyle. You support a candidate whose first intention in office will be to enact FOCA to ensure abortion rights are enshrined in the US. For some reason, you kept coming to mind all through Mass this morning. I feel a deep sense of grief about you.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 12:15 PM


Really Josephine? My friend who's been in the military for going on 7 years now, doesn't hate him...and he's a full-time soldier. :)

I'm a Catholic, and my brother and I were talking about Obama the other day. And we are not one-issue voters mind you. But even if we did agree with him on a majority of his positions (which we don't) I would find it IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile his abortion position with my Catholic beliefs, or just my moral foundation in general. I just couldn't do it. Somebody who would allow 3rd trimesters in this country again just makes me sick to my stomach, and I COULD NOT ever vote for him and feel okay with myself. But that's just me.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 2, 2008 12:57 PM


I meant somebody who would allow 3rd trimester abortions in this country*

Sorry, I can't type today. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 2, 2008 1:01 PM


Leah, please prayerfully reconsider your conversion to Islam. So many of your posts have mentioned Jesus and your love of Him. To convert to Islam would mean to reject Jesus and his Divinity.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 1:28 PM


Josephine, Pope Benedict XVI has made it very clear that that not all moral issues are equally weighted. Abortion is to be considered above other moral issues. Unfortunately, the Catholic group supporting Obama is ill-informed. It doesn't matter how many "Catholics" support Obama -- they are wrong to do so.
If you don't want to go to war then don't sign up to serve in the military. It's hardly fair to use the military for financial aid if you don't really want to have to come to the defense of our country. My husband is over in Iraq and he has found that support of McCain is much greater than for Obama.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 1:38 PM


Eileen #2 -- Thank your husband for his service. I am sure that's one thing we can ALL agree on.


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 1:50 PM


Eileen#2: I second your eloquent 1:38pm post. I think there are more issues involved with Josephine than we know. She is a lapsed Catholic and needs our prayers and love. It's hard to a young Catholic in the world today. And the Catholic faith has always been counter-cultural in a sense. It has never gone along with the trends each generation is exposed to.
I will keep your husband in my prayers as is Xalisae's husband too.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 1:56 PM


Unfortunately for you, in EVERY POLL people in the military do NOT want McCain! I don't mind going to war, but a war I don't believe in is a different story. So don't be saying your pro-life if you think people should get sent to a war and die for a cause they think is unjust... ;) By the way, the National Guard does natural disaster work.. it's not all about going to war. And believe me, I drop everything to help. :) Ugh, military wives who think they know ANYTHING about the military is so annoying. It's like people think the show Army Wives is for real. Gross.

If anyone is going to argue that the Pope is against Obama, you'd be wrong, uneducated, and well..stupid. :) There are COUNTLESS sources that will back up that the Pope has SAID that he wants people to look at candidates as a WHOLE. Please don't put Catholic in quotes if you think the Pope wants McCain to... I don't know, send more troops to war? I'm pretty sure you know, Jesus is against war.

Annnnd my morals about living with my boyfriend? Well, it just so happens we've been together for five years. We moved several hours away to go to school, and I'm pretty sure all religions believe in love. Uhm.. by the way, did I tell you we have sex? You can't assume things about people, sweetie. Remember, you don't know me. :)

It's going to be a very, very sad day for America if McCain wins. Hopefully he doesn't cheat like Bush did. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 2:21 PM


Annnnd my morals about living with my boyfriend? Well, it just so happens we've been together for five years. We moved several hours away to go to school, and I'm pretty sure all religions believe in love. Uhm.. by the way, did I tell you we have sex? You can't assume things about people, sweetie. Remember, you don't know me. :)

Oh but we do, unfortunately. And sex is not love, Josephine. sex is sex - especially to your boyfriend....

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 2:31 PM


Sex may not be love, but sex is sure a part of love. As a former Catholic, I see that religion not so much as counter-culture, but dying. It's no longer relevant.

Leah, may I ask why you've decided to convert to Islam? I'm just curious, I say go ahead and do it, but I'm curious.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 2:51 PM


Human Abstract: if you spent as much time reading the recent works on human sexuality by the Catholic church as you do venting against Catholicism you would see how woefully ignorant your above statement is. In fact the Catholic Church is the only major religion that has a positive view of sexuality and which understand the beauty of the human body both as male and female. The late JP II spent many years as a bishop working with a group of married couples in all areas, especially their sexuality. His Theology of the Body is particularily refreshing and unique.
Sex is one way we express love in the covenant of marriage but it is not the only way, as modern culture would make it out to be.

For Josephine:
From Bishop Rene H. Gracida: "... reminding all Catholics that they must vote in this election with an informed conscience. A Catholic cannot be said to have voted in this election with a good conscience if they have voted for a pro-abortion candidate. Barack Hussein Obama is a pro-abortion candidate."

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:02 PM


Hmm, my comment got deleted. I guess someone didn't like what I called you, Patricia. :) So I'll have to word my statements better--

You don't know me. :) You claim to be a Christian, but it seems as though.. what, you want to assume I have sex and that I will change my pro-life status just so.. you can feel good about saying you'll pray for me? Are Christians supposed to believe the best of people. I'm a Christian, and that's what I was always taught. Strange, for the woman who pretends she knows everything about religion to not know that simple fact... I don't know what your deal is, but you don't know me. I never said we have sex, you assumed.. hmm, you have a dirty mind!

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:05 PM


Mmm, well, that's all nice and well Patricia... but I believe I was talking about the Pope, wasn't I? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Pope is a ... how can I put this for you simply, "bigger deal"?

Sorry sweetie, but I will listen to the Pope before you.

Oh, and... you just told HA "Sex is one way we express love" but you told me "sex is sex"... so, which is it? I believe you contradicted yourself.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:09 PM


No Josephine: sex is sex to your boyfriend. I assure you it has quite a different meaning to him than it does to you. If you don't think so, ask him to stop having sex with you for 3 months. Tell him you'd like to remain chaste for a lengthy period of time.


Pope Benedict XVI has never endorsed Obama as a candidate. Josephine, why on earth would you listen to the Pope when you can't or won't follow the teachings of the Catholic Church in the area of sexual morality.
Stop blowing smoke in my face. Be prepared to discuss things seriously. You are two-faced!

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:17 PM


Did I EVER say we have sex? PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth, it's pretty annoying.

And, if you will PLEASE READ before you say things, you'll notice that I NEVER said the Pope endorsed Obama. I NEVER said that.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP. You just claimed that I said TWO THINGS that I never said. It's pretty annoying, really.

So, please, don't tell me I don't follow the Catholic religion in areas of sexual morality, because I'm pretty sure...well, no, I'm positive you don't know my views on sex, you don't know if I'm a virgin, annnnd you obviously don't know how to read if you think I've said anything to contradict myself!

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:21 PM


Bugger! That's me, Human Abstract, in the above post. Jill, if you want, delete it, and I'll repost it here.

Wow, Patricia, you really hate men, don't you? Not all guys are sex beasts. I was the one who wants to have sex in my fiance and I's relationship: he initially wanted to remain abstinent until marriage. I don't know what heartache your image of men comes from, but I hope it goes away soon.

We've discussed this already: I read Theology of the Body, and didn't find it particularly inspiring. Catholicism doesn't have a 'positive' view of sex: it believes sex to be most importantly for procreation, and for someone who has no desire to procreate, that's pretty depressing. Sex isn't the only way to express love, but it's the most fun way.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 3:25 PM


ok Josephine what do you take me for? You are living with your boyfriend for FIVE years and you haven't had sex. Please honey, stop with the nonsense, ok?
Secondly, you are right you never directly said that the Pope endorsed Obama but you implied it. The fact is that the Pope deliberately stayed away from US politics on his visit this year. Also he doesn't need to do or say anything because 80, that's EIGHTY bishops have come out and directly stated that NO Catholic can support Obama. It is a vote for abortion. You said you were prolife. You are NOT prolife if you vote for Obama PERIOD.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:26 PM


I HAVEN'T LIVED WITH MY BOYFRIEND FOR FIVE YEARS! I WAS FOURTEEN FIVE YEARS AGO. We moved in together two years ago when we left for school, and you aren't familiar with us or our relationship, so DON'T talk about stuff you know NOTHING about. For all YOU know we have separate bedrooms and only see each other in common areas. You have NO idea.

AND IF YOU COULD READ, you'd know that I SPECIFICALLY said the Pope WILL NOT endorse a candidate. SO DON'T PRETEND I IMPLIED IT. I said the Pope has REPEATEDLY stated he is NOT anti-Obama. In fact, it IS understandable for Catholics to vote for Obama because people need to look at the BIG picture. FIND ONE THING TO CONTRADICT ME, because I SWEAR you can't!

ANNNND uhm, are you actually TRYING to convince someone not to be pro-life? Uhm.. do you like, want me to go have an abortion now or something? Because it sure does sound like you're trying to get me to not be pro-life, which is kind of weird.

BY THE WAY, I also support gay marriage. DUN DUN DUNNNNNN. I'm surprised a lightening bolt didn't strike me down. YOU are the kind of Christian that makes OTHER Christians look bad because it's almost as if you WANT other people to be bad people. :) It just makes YOU look foolish though.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:31 PM


We've discussed this already: I read Theology of the Body, and didn't find it particularly inspiring. Catholicism doesn't have a 'positive' view of sex: it believes sex to be most importantly for procreation, and for someone who has no desire to procreate, that's pretty depressing. Sex isn't the only way to express love, but it's the most fun way.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 2, 2008 3:24 PM

This is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church and your statement proves to me one of two things:
either you have NOT read the document in it's entirety (which is understandable since it's very dense and long) or
you did not understand it when you read it (also understandable since the author was a highly intelligent and gifted man).
You are missing many very crucial elements in the TOTB.
And BTW, I love men! Especially all the sweet men I personally know these days.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:32 PM


Josephine: the big picture IS abortion
Without the basic right to life what good is anything else?

How long I'm going to stay prolife? What, because I'm going to get pregnant because I live with a boy? Uhm... birthcontrol? It's pretty effective. ;)

This statement alone implies you are in a sexual relationship Josephine, as did your post about being with your boyfriend of 5 years.
If you are not going to be clear about things don't post them otherwise they can be easily misunderstood.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:38 PM


Uhm. I'm on birthcontrol and I've been dating a boy for a long time. I didn't know EITHER of those statements screamed "I have sex"...

I never said I wasn't having sex, and I never said I was. :) I'm pretty sure I said, "I'm going to get pregnant because I live with a boy?" I didn't say, "I'm going to get pregnant because I have sex?"

There you go, assuming the worst instead of doing what a Christian should do and assuming the best of people..

Sooo, don't put words in my mouth. Okay? Thanks.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:41 PM


Oh and the gay marriage thingy - I'm not surprised about that either.
After all if you will live with a man without being married (in essence setting up house and pretending to be married), what is marriage anyway right? Marriage is not a special covenant between a man and a woman, designed for the mutual good of the spouses and the incarnation of their love seen in the birth of children. It could be between two men, two women, a goat and a man, a parakeet and a woman, the possibilities are ENDLESS.......

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:41 PM


As I said Josephine, if you don't want your posts misconstrued, then make them clearer. It's hard by internet to understand sometimes what you are saying.

What is woefully sad to me is that at 19? (just making sure I've got your age right Josephine, because I don't want you hollering at me for this too) you are a product of the Catholic schools or Catholic church which has failed miserably to impart it's teachings to you. The fullness of our Catholic faith is so beautiful and you don't have it or have chosen not to accept it. And that's the tragedy.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:46 PM


I lived with my dad and brother. We weren't married. Uhm, the U of I, where I go to school, has co-ed dorms. I believe, since you don't know if I'm having sex or not, you really shouldn't comment on something like that...because I don't believe there's a rule anywhere saying I can't happen to share a house with a guy? If I'm wrong, let me know.

The Catholic church hasn't "failed" at anything. Please, show me where it failed? I'm pro-life, I'm conscious of others (which is why I'm voting for Obama. Soldiers and the eldery need to be kept alive also, not just babies) oh, and I don't want to see our country fall apart. :)


And, it's judgmental people that are tearing the world apart. People like Sarah Palin who have said that being gay is a "choice"... ugh, not too long ago, a gay man was BEAT to DEATH on campus because he was gay. I'm sure he chose that path for himself? God made everyone, even gay people.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:53 PM


People like Sarah Palin who have said that being gay is a "choice"... ugh, not too long ago, a gay man was BEAT to DEATH on campus because he was gay. I'm sure he chose that path for himself? God made everyone, even gay people.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 3:53 PM

It's definitely wrong to beat a person for any reason. Being gay may be a choice or it may not be. And yes God made everyone, including gay people but that does not make the gay lifestyle right.
I'm not getting into this here. It's quite obvious we will never agree. I simply believe there are some things that are wrong - always. Sex outside of marriage is. Gay sex is wrong as is gay "marriage". Men and women are complementary - a man looks at a woman and knows this, as does the woman.
I believe being homosexual is a disorder - the causes may be numerous. We do know that many people who are being LED into this lifestyle today.
Have a nice day.....

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 3:59 PM


If you love men, who are you constantly talking about them as being only after sex? That's a very one-dimensional view of the whole male gender.

What about my statement was wrong? Does the Catholic church not advocate for sex being primarily for procreation?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:00 PM


Wow. Gay may be a choice? What in the world has to be wrong in a person's head for them to think that? Have you ever MET a gay person? Please, try telling them they made the choice. See how well that goes over.

Now, it's time for me and my only-after-sex-apparently boyfriend to go Christmas shopping. Seriously, he's such an animal and a bad person. ;)

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 4:15 PM


What about my statement was wrong? Does the Catholic church not advocate for sex being primarily for procreation?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:00 PM

No it does not Ha.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 4:17 PM


Than what does it believe, Patricia?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:18 PM


Thank you Josephine for being deliberately obscurist today and for judgeing me!

In fact I do know several gay people, one of whom I work for. She is a lovely person and we get along quite well. She has told me she CHOSE her gay lifestyle. She chose, Josephine.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 4:19 PM


And what about your one-dimensional view of men? Any enlightenment regarding that?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:20 PM


Human Abstract: that is for you to learn on your own. I think it's been divulged enough on here. Go back and really learn about the faith you shed. You might find some really interesting points on sexuality that will attract you to Catholicism. It's better you learn these things on your own rather than have me spout them to a heart not open to them. You can find books that provide the essence of JP II's teaching on sexuality. They are easy to read and quite interesting. No need to wade through his lectures.

It is your view that I have a one-dimensional view on men. So be it. I have no intention of getting into a discussion with you about men.You will only mock me, no matter what I say. So have a nice evening.... :-D

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 4:30 PM


There are reasons beyond the sexuality aspect that I left the church. Obviously, I'm pro-choice; I left the church the day that they had a ceremony for all the aborted babies. I'm for the legalization of gay marriage, as I'm bisexual: it was really a 50/50% chance that I'd even be able to get married, which I think is rather ridiculous.

I'm not cut out to be a Catholic. I'm much happier as a pagan: the love of the Goddess is much less conditional than anything the Christian tradition could ever produce.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:44 PM


re: Patricia at November 2, 2008 4:19 PM

Just as one republican cannot speak for the feelngs of an entire party or one voter for the will of an entire electorate, so too is it true that one lesbian does not speak for all gay men and lesbians. A Convenience sample of one lesbian is likely to tell you a lot about her, but very little objectivly and quantifiably true about anyone else.

Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 2, 2008 5:06 PM


Josephine,

A little advice: Stop arguing the particulars of your personal life with people who don't know you or anything about you. It's stupid, and frankly, annoying since most of these last posts are you yelling at Patricia for not knowing personal details about your life from your posts. Nobody cares about your personal life.

Also, I'm just curious, what is it that you are so angry about? You just seem really angry in your posts with little to no reason behind them other than people are misinterpreting what you're saying. If you at any time wish to have an actual discussion without the condescending attitude that you're better than the rest of us and you know soooo much more, I'll be up for it. But I like actual maturity in conversations, so see if you can muster some of that up and you'll be all set, k?

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 2, 2008 5:08 PM


Eileen #2: I do love Jesus. I think he was a wonderful man, but I have never accepted his divinity. I am certain that he is a prophet of God! I just don't believe he is God's son, except in the same way that I am His daughter.

Posted by: Leah at November 2, 2008 5:17 PM


Yo La: I know quite a few more same-sex attracted persons including a man who had therapy for same-sex attraction. It was difficult for him and quite a struggle. But he had alot of personal issues from his past family life that were implicated as well.

Human Abstract: I find it interesting that you would harass me about MY view of men considering yours!

Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the love of Christ for you! No Goddess can match him, in that I am sure. Christ asks that you turn to him - wholly and completely. No doubt, difficult to be sure but attainable.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 5:22 PM


Elizabeth: I kinda think Josephine is a plant. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Patricia at November 2, 2008 5:30 PM


I'm a plant? Please elaborate? I'm not even sure what that means. I'm sure you'll have an elaborate explanation. Something from the bible, something Jesus told you one day when you were hanging out, or something? Because you do seem to act like you know much more than anyone else.
Honestly, it's people like you that make pro-choice people feel they're right.


Oh, and this whole condescending attitude I have that I'm "better than the rest of you" well, I only believe I'm better than the ones that have proven they're ignorant and uneducated, not everyone on here.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 5:36 PM


Oh, and this whole condescending attitude I have that I'm "better than the rest of you" well, I only believe I'm better than the ones that have proven they're ignorant and uneducated, not everyone on here.

Yeahh, that should work out real well for you. Especially in life. Good luck with that.

Seriously, you're going to open a lot of minds with that attitude though. While I will concede there are people on here who it is impossible to have a conversation with because of the "I'm always right, you're always wrong" attitude...I would hope that maybe you could just flick the chip off your shoulder and talk to those of us who don't think that way. Go on..really..it's like pulling a band-aid off, it only hurts for a second.

And I think Patricia meant you're a plant as in..somebody from a pro-choice website/organization sent you here to distract us. Kind of like an internet troll. I don't really know if that's true, but either way, I think you'll come to find that we're really an okay bunch around here. We even get along some of the time. That is..when there aren't elections going on. The election has seemed to bring out the angry in everybody.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 2, 2008 7:41 PM


"If anyone is going to argue that the Pope is against Obama, you'd be wrong, uneducated, and well..stupid. :) There are COUNTLESS sources that will back up that the Pope has SAID that he wants people to look at candidates as a WHOLE. Please don't put Catholic in quotes if you think the Pope wants McCain to... I don't know, send more troops to war? I'm pretty sure you know, Jesus is against war."

Whoa! Josephine, please calm down. I will admit that I don't know everything about the military but I do know that Catholics are complicit in participating in grave moral evil if they vote for a pro-choice candidate when there is a pro-life candidate also running for the same office. The Pope and the Bishops do not endorse political candidates but they have made it clear that Catholics must choose those running for public office who will defend life. You may disagree with the U.S. involvement in Iraq but it is not on the same moral plane as abortion. Abortion is the killing of an innocent, helpless human being. Sadly, some of our brave young men and women have been killed in this war but they are adults trained to do battle who have chosen to defend those who can not defend themselves and to protect our country.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:11 PM


Patricia and LizfromNE, thank you for your prayers!

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:14 PM


... but it's not his job to fix everyone of his relatives living conditions, especially considering how large his family is.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 10:26 PM

No, he just wants us to take care of her FOR him.

JANET -

Thanks for reposting the prayer. It is beautiful isn't it? I will be saying it almost continually on Monday and Tuesday. I have a tremendous devotion to Our Lady and great belief in her protection.

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 8:14 PM


I look at the 5 Non Negotiables and compare the candidates views on each of the issues.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 8:15 PM


Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:11 PM

Eileen, she may have been born Catholic but does not know about the Catholic faith nor does she practice it faithfully. We must pray for these Catholics to return to the true Faith. This is another good reason to pray the Litany of Our Lady of Victory.

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 8:17 PM


Than what does it believe, Patricia?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 4:18 PM


There's a great book for you to read - Theology of the Body for Beginners, by Christopher West.

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 8:21 PM


Christopher West also wrote another book, called "Good News about Sex and Marriage: Answers to Your Honest Questions About Catholic Teaching".

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 8:28 PM


Yes, I'm a Catholic Obama supporter. What of it? There are a LOT of us.

Posted by: Josephine at November 1, 2008 11:13 PM


Wait, I just saw that all your ancestors were Jewish. When did the Catholic come in?

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 8:29 PM


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 8:28 PM

Isn't he great?!

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 8:30 PM


Kristen, I'm right on it! :)
Were you aware that the election of 2000 was finally decided on the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:32 PM


Elsa Marina,
A very happy birthday. May you have many more.
Between you and me, quantos anos tiene usted?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:55 PM. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Marina,
Feliz Cumpleanos!
Es un dia mas especial - El Dia De Los Santos tambien! :-)
Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 10:14 Pm
_______________________________________________________________

Elsa, 9:23p: Happy birthday! And do not despair. Keep trying and praying with your family.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 2, 2008 5:35 AM
__________________________________________________________________

Hellooooooooo Everyone!

May the spirit of our Lord Bless us all with Patience and Respect towards each other.

Yeeeeeah! It is one day After my Birthday!

I want to specially thank Mary, Janet and Jill Stanek for the birthday Wishes from yesterday!

I also want to thank my mother, and father and all my brother, in Boston, MA.
and my family in Habana, Cuba.

Oh! I forgot to mention that yesterday was also my niece’s birthday, Mia, she was born the same day that I was...November 1, yes, you are right

Janet (10:14pm) ( El Dia De Los Santos tambien! :-)
November 1 is the day of all the saints. “El dia de todos los Santos” I feel very blessed to have been born the day that I was. I am sure some of you feel that way about this and other details that God took care of.

Mary thank you so much for your thoughts...(at November 1, 2008 9:55 PM. . . ).(Between you and me, quantos anos tiene usted?) ...my question is......how old do I look? Really..

Right Jill, How old do you think I am?

Jill thank you for the birthday wishes. (5:35am) You wake up early, you must go to sleep very early too! I am right? I will keep trying, I feel better today.

To all my friends and future friends from Jill Stanek AMAZING site ........may.....
Our Lord blesses us everyday, we just have to learn to see the signs and follow his path.
And I want to do, I really want to follow his path.

Today is Sunday, my cousin Jose Conde Birthday. I am a bit distant from him because he is all for Obama (He even posted a Song on you tube for Obama... now Obama is using my cousing to promote his campain) I stopped sending him emails about Obama’ and I started sending him emails on the Born Alive Infant and Jill S. info. My cousin seems less resitant on this topic as a matter of fact I think he has been reading the articles because he has not responded back to any of them. But he did leave me a message on my answering machine that he has been receiving all my emails.

I will keep tyring to help my cousin Jose to see the truth on what abortion does to a woman's overall and her unborn child.

Bueno, mi gente, I must say good bye. See you later. *Elsa Marina Cruz, Miami,FL.

Posted by: Elsa Marina Cruz at November 2, 2008 8:38 PM


Elsa Marina,
A very happy birthday. May you have many more.
Between you and me, quantos anos tiene usted?

Posted by: Mary at November 1, 2008 9:55 PM. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Marina,
Feliz Cumpleanos!
Es un dia mas especial - El Dia De Los Santos tambien! :-)
Posted by: Janet at November 1, 2008 10:14 Pm
_______________________________________________________________

Elsa, 9:23p: Happy birthday! And do not despair. Keep trying and praying with your family.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at November 2, 2008 5:35 AM
__________________________________________________________________

Hellooooooooo Everyone!

May the spirit of our Lord Bless us all with Patience and Respect towards each other.

Yeeeeeah! It is one day After my Birthday!

I want to specially thank Mary, Janet and Jill Stanek for the birthday Wishes from yesterday!

I also want to thank my mother, and father and all my brother, in Boston, MA.
and my family in Habana, Cuba.

Oh! I forgot to mention that yesterday was also my niece’s birthday, Mia, she was born the same day that I was...November 1, yes, you are right

Janet (10:14pm) ( El Dia De Los Santos tambien! :-)
November 1 is the day of all the saints. “El dia de todos los Santos” I feel very blessed to have been born the day that I was. I am sure some of you feel that way about this and other details that God took care of.

Mary thank you so much for your thoughts...(at November 1, 2008 9:55 PM. . . ).(Between you and me, quantos anos tiene usted?) ...my question is......how old do I look? Really..

Right Jill, How old do you think I am?

Jill thank you for the birthday wishes. (5:35am) You wake up early, you must go to sleep very early too! I am right? I will keep trying, I feel better today.

To all my friends and future friends from Jill Stanek AMAZING site ........may.....
Our Lord blesses us everyday, we just have to learn to see the signs and follow his path.
And I want to do, I really want to follow his path.

Today is Sunday, my cousin Jose Conde Birthday. I am a bit distant from him because he is all for Obama (He even posted a Song on you tube for Obama... now Obama is using my cousing to promote his campain) I stopped sending him emails about Obama’ and I started sending him emails on the Born Alive Infant and Jill S. info. My cousin seems less resitant on this topic as a matter of fact I think he has been reading the articles because he has not responded back to any of them. But he did leave me a message on my answering machine that he has been receiving all my emails.

I will keep tyring to help my cousin Jose to see the truth on what abortion does to a female and her child.

Bueno, mi gente, I must say good bye. See you later. *Elsa Marina Cruz, Miami,FL.

Posted by: Elsa Marina Cruz at November 2, 2008 8:39 PM


How many times do I have to ask you to actually read comments instead of skimming. Half my family is Jewish. Half. Just like I said, sweetie.

And, please, don't pray for me because I pray that you kind of judgmental people I hope the world doesn't end up with. Furthermore, I'm not from a pro-choice website since I've said repeatedly that I'm pro-life. I think abortion is wrong. I also think that people dying because they can't afford healthcare is wrong. I also think soldiers dying for an illegal war they don't believe in is wrong. You can say I'm pro-choice all you want, but the truth is, I think it's wrong for ANYONE to be put in a situation that is harmful, not just babies.

By the way Kristen, if his aunt is, in fact, an illegal alien like everyone on here is claiming, than she isn't getting a dime of tax payers money. And, are you sure she's on welfare or something? I mean, I don't know how much you know about her financial situation, I can't claim to know a lot about it though. By the way though, Obama pays taxes too...

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 8:41 PM


I take it you are not into judging people? :)

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:47 PM


Our Lady of Guadaloupe, Patrones of the Unborn, Pray for us and Our Nation. Amen

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 8:49 PM


Lem me clarify: I judge people (pretty harshly), but never, EVER on what they believe in.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 9:03 PM


Josephine, then you are still judging people. I don't think that anyone has judged the state of your soul but it is fraternal charity to point out the errors of someone's ways.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 9:09 PM


Actually, Josephine, you have been judging people based on their beliefs because much of what has been asserted here has been people's beliefs.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 9:12 PM


Oh my gosh! I just turned on "Franciscan University Presents" on EWTN. Dr. Janet Smith is discussing JPII's book "Love and Responsibility". She just mentioned some hormone studies that have been done in which it was found that bc alters a woman's judgment. Women taking artificial contraception are more attracted to louses. ( Dr. Regis Martin was asking why so many women are attracted to narcissistic men -- men who are obvious jerks!) I've had guys ask me why so many girls are attracted to jerks instead of nice guys -- maybe that is part of the explanation. I think that they are just on the tip of the iceberg with the whole issue of artificial hormone use.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 9:27 PM


I find it really, really amusing that Patricia was going on about how no Goddess could match Christianity or whatever, and then you all start talking about Our Lady. Oh, the irony.

I have no desire to read about the Catholic view on sex: I'm not Catholic, and the religion absolutely does not appeal to me.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 9:42 PM


Our Lady is the Mother of God -- the Blessed Virgin Mary. She isn't a deity -- she is the Mother of Jesus, true God and true Man. She intercedes on our behalf. She has a lot of clout :) but she is always in union with the Will of God.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 9:46 PM


Eileen, Janet, Kristen: Keep the Litany of Our Lady of Victory going! I am also praying the Election Prayer to Mary found on CatholicVote.com

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 9:52 PM


Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 8:32 PM

I didn't remember that! You know what's really strange - and a complete act of God - my grandfather prayed that when he died he would die on the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe and he did. Then, 13 years later my father (his first son) died the same day. My family liked to think that my grandfather came down from Heaven and said to my father "Come on, there's this great place I want to show you." My father died of cancer.

Josephine -

Could you please act civil for half a second? I know it's a stretch but really, there are a lot of comments here and it's easy to miss something. I obviously missed that only HALF your family was Jewish that's WHY I asked when the Catholic side came in. Sheesh, lighten up - SWEETIE!

And if you ARE Catholic you should be happy people are praying for you, but as I said before I have my doubts you are.

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 10:01 PM


Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 9:52 PM

I'll do that as well Liz - thanks for the tip!

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 10:08 PM


Kristen, how beautiful! Although I'm sorry for your losses.
In regard to my post regarding Our Lady of Guadalupe -- my mom pointed that out back at the time that it was definitively decided that George Bush won the election -- that the Supreme Court decided on Dec. 12th. I remind myself of it whenever I become anxious over the outcome of this next election. God have mercy on us.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 10:09 PM


I know who the Lady is. It's interesting because archetypically, they're quite similar. The Goddess, however, has an equal role with the God: a circumstance I find much more pleasing.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 10:13 PM


HA, what is it that you believe?

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 10:15 PM


Thanks Eileen - but I get a little nervous on that day every year! LOL!

I've become a lot calmer about the election now that I've been praying more about it. I know that no matter what happens Our Lady will protect those close to her and her Son. Remember the reading in the Bible that says the birds worry about nothing and God provides for them. (That is NOT a direct quote but it's the jist of the verse.) We have to trust.

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 10:15 PM


Oh Kristen, you are so right -- Jesus, I trust in you.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 10:18 PM


Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 10:13 PM

Then why do you find it ironic that we were talking about Our Lady? We don't place her as an equal to God so if you do place your "Goddess" as an equal to God, Our Lady and your "Goddess" are nothing similar to eachother, therefore lack any kind of "irony."

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 10:21 PM


Good night all.

Janet, Liz and Eileen, keep up the prayers! We have to storm Heaven the next couple of days!

Posted by: Kristen at November 2, 2008 10:22 PM


I attended a candlelight vigil with my mom for about an hour tonight (it was for the last day of 40 Days for Life) at the pro life house next to the abortion mill here in town. I said the Litany & the election prayer as I stood on the sidewalk surrounding the abortion mill.

I think I'll say the Saint Michael the Archangel Prayer before bedtime, which is soon.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 2, 2008 10:35 PM


Archetypically, most female deities represent life and death, and the Virgin Mary specifically represents the archetypical idea of the "Maiden" combined with the archetypical idea of the "mother." In pagan traditions, the idea of the goddess is usually associated with death and rebirth, as well as motherhood and wisdom.

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 2, 2008 10:44 PM


Human Abstract: It so happens that many of the Islamic beliefs coincide with my personal beliefs. I have always admired the religion and there is a small but very friendly Muslim community in Lethbridge. Converting is sort of a formality. Very little changes after I convert.

My fiance and I have also decided to live literally and completely by the rules of the Qur'an for one year, to find our comfort level. Then after the first year we will keep what we feel comfortable with. I'm looking quite forward to it.

Posted by: Leah at November 2, 2008 11:33 PM


I feel like HA and Leah are the only open minded people I've seen on here, and it's sad.

The pro-life movement would probably be a lot more effectual if pro-life supporters were more open minded and didn't have to tie it to religion and politics. If you can convince people that abortion is wrong, that life begins at conception, and that it is murder, it doesn't matter what the politics of it are. As much as you may hate to hear it, abortion will probably never be illegal. So instead of focusing on the politics, why not focus on the people? Even people who aren't religious tend to see murder as WRONG.

It seems as though many of you would rather America be a theocracy rather than a democracy and the people saying I'm not a Catholic, or it's wrong for Leah to convert.. well, that's the kind of thing that make people write pro-life supporters off as "crazy" or "God freaks" which is what people see many of you as.

That's not said in an insulting way, but if you think talking to people how you talk to me is helping your cause, you're very mistaken.

Posted by: Josephine at November 2, 2008 11:59 PM


So Leah, you are going to start wearing the hijab?
What does the Qur'an say about fiancees- do they have to have certain living situations?

Posted by: prettyinpink at November 3, 2008 12:02 AM


Josephine,

do you think abortion should be illegal?

Posted by: Jasper at November 3, 2008 12:15 AM


A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.

Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death Oct. 27 in a stadium packed with 1,000 spectators in the southern port city of Kismayo, Amnesty International and Somali media reported, citing witnesses. The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo had accused her of adultery after she reported that three men had raped her, the rights group said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html

Posted by: Jasper at November 3, 2008 12:20 AM


Yes. I think abortion is wrong.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 12:29 AM


Sorry, I meant to say
** I think abortion should be illegal.

Posted by: Anonymous at November 3, 2008 12:46 AM


She just mentioned some hormone studies that have been done in which it was found that bc alters a woman's judgment. Women taking artificial contraception are more attracted to louses. ( Dr. Regis Martin was asking why so many women are attracted to narcissistic men -- men who are obvious jerks!) I've had guys ask me why so many girls are attracted to jerks instead of nice guys -- maybe that is part of the explanation. I think that they are just on the tip of the iceberg with the whole issue of artificial hormone use.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 2, 2008 9:27 PM

yes Eileen, they are finding that BC totally alters a woman's hormonal setup. Remember, when the BC pill was designed, scientists had only a general idea of how it worked. And a woman's hormonal profile and her reproductive system is so complicated that they are still not fully understood either. So there will be many more discoveries along these lines in the next years.


I feel like HA and Leah are the only open minded people I've seen on here, and it's sad.

What you really mean by this statement Josephine is that no one supports your view that one can be Catholic and support Obama.

Posted by: Patricia at November 3, 2008 6:33 AM


Patricia, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by some of these studies -- what should we expect when we mess with God's design?

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 3, 2008 8:06 AM


"The pro-life movement would probably be a lot more effectual if pro-life supporters were more open minded and didn't have to tie it to religion and politics. If you can convince people that abortion is wrong, that life begins at conception, and that it is murder, it doesn't matter what the politics of it are. As much as you may hate to hear it, abortion will probably never be illegal. So instead of focusing on the politics, why not focus on the people? Even people who aren't religious tend to see murder as WRONG."

Josephine, religion entered the discussion here because you brought it up by mentioning the fact that you were a Catholic who supports Obama. Abortion will be made illegal someday when most people come to see the truth of it. Until then, making use of our political system is the way to accomplish as much as we can to protect the unborn.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 3, 2008 8:14 AM


A Catholic voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders!

Posted by: becky at November 3, 2008 8:56 AM


What you really mean by this statement Josephine is that no one supports your view that one can be Catholic and support Obama.
Posted by: Patricia at November 3, 2008 6:33 AM

A majority of Catholics support Obama.

Posted by: hal at November 3, 2008 8:56 AM


"As much as you may hate to hear it, abortion will probably never be illegal."

Does this sound like a statement from a person who is prolife? Taken at face value, it doesn't. It sounds defeatist and rationalized.

"Even people who aren't religious tend to see murder as WRONG."

This statement is completely naive. The problem is that people dont care whether abortion is wrong or not. What they care about is their own convenience and a baby is VERY inconvenient. That is why we need a law that tells people - you can not kill you baby. You have to find another way to deal with this than slicing and dicing your unborn child.

Posted by: Patricia at November 3, 2008 9:01 AM


Josephine -

You remind me of a friend of mine who was living with - and having sex with - her fiance. My friend wanted to be a good Catholic and get married in the Church. She decided that she was going to go to confession and make a new start. She came to our book club the next month completely upset because while in confession she told the priest that she was living in sin. The priest asked if, after confession, she was going back to the home she shared with her fiance. She said yes and the priest - RIGHTLY SO - said he could not absolve her. She actually expected him to say "I absolve you...." when she hadn't made a good confession. (Meaning that, yes, you made a mistake but you were going to do everything you could to remove the temptation and not sin again.)

The point is that there are Catholic teachings that are not up for negotiation. You can live the Catholic faith or not but don't get upset at someone because they are telling you that you are outside the Catholic teachings. They are what they are and they are there for the benefit of us. Your father (hopefully) made the decisions he did in the best interest of you. Maybe he grounded you for disobeying your curfew, or didn't let you go somewhere because your chores weren't done.

Our Father in Heaven does the same thing. He gives us rules to protect us - you may not like it, just as you didn't like your father refusing you things - but He does it because he loves us.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 9:02 AM


nice becky! like moths to the fire!

Posted by: Patricia at November 3, 2008 9:03 AM


Posted by: hal at November 3, 2008 8:56 AM

HELLO??!!! NOT Catholic.

Again, I can say I'm French, it doesn't make it true.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 9:04 AM


I knew that birth control messes with a woman's reproductive system, but very few doctors realize this. That's why I am glad to have a doctor that does NOT prescribe the pill for ANY reason.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 3, 2008 9:04 AM


Josephine,

How is it that WE have to convince people that life begins at conception?

It's in every freaking biology book in the country. And WE have to do the convincing? Why don't you just carry around a biology book with you..I'm sure you do already..being in med school and all.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 9:08 AM


Hey Elizabeth,

How's school going? Can you tell me where you go to school? I know you live in the Aurora area. I got laid off from my job - I'm actually pretty happy about that - and I'm thinking about going back to school. I can't find a school near me that has the program I want though.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 9:11 AM


Liz: that's cool. You are lucky to have such a doctor!

Posted by: Patricia at November 3, 2008 9:13 AM


Kristen,

I go to Waubonsee Community. What program are you looking for? I'm working on getting into their nursing program. I really like going to Waubonsee as they have a wide variety of classes from classroom, to online, to telecourses so it works really well with my schedule and Gabriella's schedule.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 9:25 AM


Elizabeth -

I got my Associates degree from Waubonsee. The nursing program is very good and I know a few graduates that can't say enough good things.

I'm looking into stenography. I met a woman who works as a stenographer and she loves it. The hours are very flexible and the pay is great. My BIL is a lawyer and he says they contract out their stenographers for depositions and that's exactly what I want. The problem is that I don't want to have to travel to the City if I can avoid it, it's too much time away from the kids since I'd have to go in the evening because I still have little ones home with me during the day.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 10:52 AM


Leah, that's REALLY interesting. You should write about it. That's something I'd read without hesitation, and I'd bet you could sell it to a major newspaper/magazine. It's a great human interest story.

And actually, the study about women and birth control said that, due to hormone fluctuations, women tended to choose different types of men, specifically men they would want to be companions with-- not necessarily men they had sexual chemistry with. I can link the study if you'd like, it's interesting. It does not, however, indicate that a woman's hormones are horribly screwed up because of the pill. To say that is to entirely misunderstand the study. Besides, wasn't Patricia just saying that sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage anyway?

Posted by: Human Abstract at November 3, 2008 11:47 AM


Where to start. I had class this morning, so I'm behind. Let's see.

Eileen... "Josephine, religion entered the discussion here because you brought it up by mentioning the fact that you were a Catholic who supports Obama"

I brought that up because someone specifically ASKED if I was Catholic. I didn't just start saying, "Blah blah I'm Catholic but I love Obama." Thank you very much.


AND Elizabeth, you say why do we have to convince people abortion is wrong.. uhm, isn't that what you're supposed to be doing? You just want to sit on here and talk about it but not get that message out? You don't think you should be convincing pro-choicers that abortion is wrong?

So, I meant what I said. It doesn't matter if there are laws protecting abortion as long as you can convince people that getting an abortion is wrong. I don't think there is absolutely any reason at ALL why a president should be chosen because of their stance on abortion.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 12:04 PM


Kristen, I went with steno for a bit, it you have the patience, you'd love it. Also, you might like to look into CART/Captioning- often time there are opportunities to work from home in those situations.

Posted by: Erin at November 3, 2008 12:10 PM


I don't think there is absolutely any reason at ALL why a president should be chosen because of their stance on abortion.

For me, a candidate's stance on abortion is a good litmus test of his personal world view. A person who is pro-abortion is more concerned about adults than babies. I can't fathom voting for a President who doesn't respect babies.

Posted by: Janet at November 3, 2008 12:17 PM


I can't imagine voting for a candidate who doesn't care about the eldery, the poor, or soldiers. That's especially ironic since he was a soldier.

I'm not saying your wrong, but everyone can argue that babies are defenseless. I'll argue that too. However, poop people, elderly..they're defenseless too. In a perfect race, both candidates would want to protect all the people. Unfortunately, they can't.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 12:20 PM


I meant *poor people, not poop people.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 12:29 PM


I can't imagine voting for a candidate who doesn't care about the eldery, the poor, or soldiers. That's especially ironic since he was a soldier.

Where do you get the idea McCain doesn't care about any other group?

Why in the world would you want Obama as your Commander-in-Chief over someone who HAS MILITARY EXPERIENCE???

You've probably already voted, but if not, I urge you to rethink your vote. You do know, that even if we get out of IRAQ, the fighting will not be over. Do all your fellow National Guardsmen feel the way you do? It scares me to know that your faith in the military is not strong.

Posted by: Janet at November 3, 2008 1:10 PM


Posted by: Erin at November 3, 2008 12:10 PM

Thanks Erin. I've heard it's a great job. The job I just lost was very stressful and I was constantly working. I'm very ready for a job that I can finish and then be done and not think about until the next job.

The woman I talked to said she was recruited by a staffing firm specifically for stenographers and she's never wanted for a job and turns them down when she wants some time off. It seems like the best situation for me at this point.

I'll check into the captioning.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 1:25 PM


Posted by: Janet at November 3, 2008 1:10 PM

Janet, I know an Illinois National Guardsman who is currently stationed in Afghanistan. It's his second tour - the first was in 2003 I believe. He is a STRONG supporter of McCain and from the party we had before he left I'd say his unit feels the same way.

Many of his fellow Guardsmen were there and when he gave a speech at the end of the night he said he expected all of us to have a McCain sign in our front yard and to volunteer for the campaign, to which the other Guardsmen yelled their support.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 1:33 PM


I can honestly say ALMOST my entire unit is for Obama. I must mention my unit is by Chicago, which is probably why there are SOOO many Obama supporters, but I did go to Basic and AIT with soldiers from all over the country, and the Obama support was phenomenal. It doesn't matter if McCain has military experience to me. After all, he retired in 1981 and things change. Leaders have changed. War is handled differently. (I mean, now a days Congress apparently doesn't even have to declare it. The President can do it alllll by himself.)

What do you mean "where do I get the idea he doesn't care about any other group?" Well, I'm a soldier, and I know he doesn't care about us since he wants to double the number of us over seas. Honestly, can you tell me what we've accomplished? Or what more we're going to accomplish?

I know he doesn't care about the elderly or the poor, and least of all the poor elderly.. He wants to CUT medicare. Honestly, do you think a 75 year old woman with out money is going to be able to buy health insurance for only $5,000 a year?? REALLY?

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 1:41 PM


Kristen, I'm sorry-- but a unit is hundreds of people. So, what do you mean "many" of his fellow guardsmen? Because when I speak of my unit, I'm speaking of all the hundreds of them. Not just a few friends.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 1:44 PM


Josephine,
McCain wants government programs to operate more efficiently. Obama wants to take more of your money and increase the size of government. He wants to penalize anyone who tries to get ahead in life. All that aside, I don't trust him simply because of his ant-life views.
Given that your unit is in Chicago, it doesn't surprise me that there are a lot of Obama supporters.

Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 3, 2008 2:07 PM


Like I said before, I went to Basic in SC and AIT in Texas. The soldiers I was with there were not all from Illinois.

I do NOT mind giving up money for the good of the country. It doesn't bother me ONE BIT if taxes are raised for people making more money... because, let's face it. Who NEEDS that money? Let's face it, they keep saying the cutoff is different amounts...$120,000, 150K, 200K, 250K... even if the LOWEST of those amounts is the cutoff... isn't that ENOUGH money? I mean, is an extra bit of money each year such a big deal? I come from a pretty wealthy family, and I can honestly say they're completely okay with higher taxes if it's for the good of the country.

Now, Obama doesn't have anti-LIFE views like some people want to claim. He wants soldiers, elderly, and poor to have just as good of a chance to stay alive as anyone else.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 2:15 PM


Josephine,

I meant...the only people who don't believe life begins at conception are in denial..as it is in every biology book in the country. Why do you have to convince people of FACTS? If people don't accept the facts, they don't, but that doesn't make them any less factual. Lots of people just DON'T CARE that life begins as conception. Which is sad, but there isn't much you can do about those people.

And if you really don't think Obama has anti-life views, you are pretty deep in denial yourself.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 3:10 PM


I'm sorry, Elizabeth, but I do believe I've mentioned I'm pre-med right now and my father is a doctor. It is certainly NOT in biology books that life begins at conception. That is a RELIGIOUS view. Please, open a biology book before you start making claims. I believe life begins at conception because I'm a church goer, NOT because it was in a biology book.

If you really think McCain has pro-LIFE views and not just anti-abortion views, then you're not only in denial, but you apparently can't read.. he's made it clear he doesn't care about LIVES.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 3:19 PM


Josephine,

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote). ... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual." (Carlson, Bruce M., Patten's Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p.3.)


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote." [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zygtos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being." [Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"Although human life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. ... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity." (O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology and Teratology, 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29).


"the term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation and fertilization ... The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life." (J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers, pages 17 and 23.)


"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being." [Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus." (Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146.


"every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." (E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant (3rd Edition). Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.)


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life." [Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 3, 2008 3:32 PM


Hmm..well Jospehine..all the biology books i've had for the PAST 3 SEMESTERS for my BIOLOGY classes have said that LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION. So..yep..I've read them and I do know what I'm talking about. But nice try, though. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 4:03 PM


Thanks Bobby. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 4:04 PM


Bobby, could you please find a source from the last ten years? Only two of those say life begins at conception, and they are both from the seventies. I'm sure you realize that science changes everyday?

I can tell you right now, if I raise my hand in cellular biology my Dr. will tell me life begins at BIRTH from a science point of view. In fact, I'll do it tomorrow. Annnnd just for the hell of it, I'll go get my text book right now, so I can give you information from.. you know, the 2000s. :)

Oh, I'm sorry. What are you going to school for that you need that many bio classes? And, where do you happen to be going to school?

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 4:15 PM


I'm working on my prereq's for nursing.

I didn't need all the bio classes I took for the nursing program..but when I decided on nursing, I hadn't taken a bio class since high school..so I thought some refreshing was in order before I took the harder classes. And that is probably what has contributed to my 97 in microbiology this semester so far. :)

And if you'll scroll up a ways, I told Kristen what school I was going to. But I go to Waubonsee Community College..they have an excellent nursing program.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 4:29 PM


Josephine,

"if I raise my hand in cellular biology my Dr. will tell me life begins at BIRTH from a science point of view"

This is a philosophical understanding; not a biological one. There is a reason that every single pro-choice philosopher either subscribes to a personhood theory or bodily autonomy argument for the permissibility of abortion. It's because the fact that the embryo is a human being is not up for debate. In fact, I don't think there is a single pro-choicer on the site except maybe Yo L Tango (who also believes that the embryo isn't alive) who would agree that the embryo is not a life. "Yes, biologically it is human but..." is often the phrase you will hear. So your understanding of life beginning at birth is not biological but philosophical.

" could you please find a source from the last ten years? Only two of those say life begins at conception, and they are both from the seventies. I'm sure you realize that science changes everyday? "

There is no need. If what I quoted is incorrect, then there should be penalty of quotes in scientific texts now which correct it. The burden of proof is on you to find more recent quotes that correct my "false" quotes above.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 3, 2008 4:31 PM


Josephine

View some 3D and 4D ultrasounds. Those babies are ALIVE BEFORE they are BORN. Life begins before birth - scientific advances are showing us this with new advances in Ultrasounds.

Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 3, 2008 4:56 PM


Josephine,

Please tell us where you go to school so pro-lifers can stay far far away.

Posted by: Janet at November 3, 2008 5:28 PM


Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 1:44 PM


I didn't take role call but the party was a few hundred people thrown by their family and friends. My friend (actually my husband's) is the Captain? Corporal? I don't remember his rank but he's one of the head guys and had to leave two weeks earlier than the others to get security briefings.

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 6:27 PM


Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 2:15 PM


Josephine, you are only 19 years old and I'm sure you're going to take that as an insult but at some point we were all 19 and I'm pretty sure we all feel that what we thought we knew at 19 is nothing in comparison to what we knew even a few years from then.

The fact of the matter is you don't know. You were born when I graduated high school. A time of relative peace and economic prosperity. Even I don't really remember the Carter years but I've heard enough stories about lines for gas, inflation that was out of control, and interest rates for mortgages that were 15%.

I just deleted a bunch of other things I was going to say but really it's pointless to talk to you. You, of course, are always right and everyone else is just lacking your bounty of intelligence. (read sarcasm.)

Posted by: Kristen at November 3, 2008 6:38 PM


Aww, not everyone else is lacking. HA seems pretty smart. :)

By the way, AGE means nothing. I could argue that being 19 and still in college makes me more intelligent because I'm still exercising my brain everyday and learning. You'd have to be... almost 40, so excuse me, but unless you have a particularly stimulating job you probably aren't exercising your brain everyday.

I go to the University of Illinois, and am transferring to Northwestern at semester. I'm pretty sure you will find they are both VERY prestigious schools. And, if by "so the pro-lifers can stay far, far away"... well, if you mean people like YOU, then I hope they do stay far away. The campus here is very open and full of very, VERY intelligent people. I'm not sure if you've heard, but even Bill Ayers works for a branch of the University of Illinois. ;)

I'm sorry if I don't take nurses as seriously as professors and doctors, but I tend to think they don't know as much.


By the way, I also remember "A time of relative peace and economic prosperity." it was all eight years of Clinton's presidency. That man was a genius. :)

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 7:14 PM


Let me rephrase one sentence: I don't mean to downgrade nurses, I meant more along the lines of they don't know as much about science as professors and doctors. I'm sure nurses in general are very smart, but doctors and professors are more educated in science areas. I by nooo way meant to insult you being a nurse.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 7:21 PM


Oh, Illinois, excellent! I went to a math conference there in April. Lots of good eating options. The Qdoba is only 207 steps away from the math building! I am in love with Qdoba. My really close friend just received a post-doc there, too. He's teaching a course in mathematical proofs this semester. Math 374, I believe... You taking it by any chance?

And I have a good friend in the mathematics graduate department at Northwestern. Very cool. Those schools have excellent math programs, Josephine. Do you have to take any math classes? God love you.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 3, 2008 7:22 PM


Bobby: I have gotten all of my math classes out of the way. I can't take anymore until I transfer to Northwestern. I came to the U of I to get science out of the way, because it has one of the best science programs in the entire country. I have to start with math again after I leave for Northwestern.

And, since that restaurant is on Green St. I guess you've seen the awesomeness that is the U of I campus?

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 7:36 PM


Man, EVERYONE is always done with math. I'm always too late...

I guess the UIUC campus is pretty cool. VERY huge. They have a great Newman Center. Have you been to the Indian place on Green? THAT is AWESOME! Really cheap, and really good. It was one of the best dining experiences I've ever had, and I don't like food.

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 3, 2008 7:53 PM


If you're talking about the Bombay Indian Grill... it's totally delicious. I live on campus, and honestly very find any reason to go anywhere other than Green Street. The best food and shopping in central Illinois is on that one road.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 8:01 PM


"and honestly very find any reason to go anywhere other than Green Street."

I KNOW! I'm at a school where there are about 1.3 eating options on campus, and they all SUCK! I was just blown away when I saw that Green street place. Pizza Hut, Qdoba, Chipolte, Bombay, Noodles PLace... there were tons more. And if you spend all day in the math castle, it's RIGHT there... I'm so jealous of the eating scene at UIUC...

Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 3, 2008 8:11 PM


Josephine,

I don't have to be a genius to be able to read what it says in my science book. And it does. So keep being a rude little girl. You seem to have that down pretty well. And you're arguing that your doctors and professors know more about science and they say life begins AT BIRTH? Looks like they're not very smart to me if they actually believe that. Because science (from what I've read) says something different.

You call people who don't agree with every little thing you say ignorant and uneducated so really, grow up. I am NEITHER of those things.

You will make a good doctor though. You've got that elitist, I know more than you dumb people idea down pat, so I'm sure you'll totally be a great doctor. Crappy person, but GREAT doctor.

*eyeroll*

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 8:46 PM


As you can see, I have disagreed with BobbyBambino, but when we can exchange pleasantries because truth be told, I don't know him so I can't POSSIBLY judge his character based on an INTERNET WEBSITE.

And I will be a great doctor, just like my dad, just like my Grandpa. But since the nurses at my dad's clinic are REALLY nice and friendly, I'm going to guess that's not a pre-req for being a nurse. :)

It's funny you would call me an elitist when I'm all for Obama's social reform plan. I'm all for helping less fortuate and putting everyone on a (semi) equal playing field, when most on this site seem concerned about keeping their money, when truth be told they're probably making too much anyway. But please, continue to say I'M the elitist. If you mean that as in an "I think I'm better than you" type way, you're right. But I don't think that about everyone on here. I think that about those who have made PERSONAL snipes. (How I live with my boyfriend, I'm not a Catholic, I'm pro-choice even though I'm not.)

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 9:23 PM


By the way, AGE means nothing.

You have a lot to learn. Like respecting your elders. Could you be any more rude?

Posted by: Janet at November 3, 2008 9:24 PM


Why would I show someone respect who doesn't show me respect? I respect people who show they deserve it.

If you'll look back, I was addressing people on here as "ma'am" until they had taken away my reason to respect them.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 9:32 PM


Josephine,

I think Obama's an elitist too, so using him as a reference point doesn't really do much for me. I really don't care that you live with your boyfriend, or if you're Catholic, or if you're pro-choice or not. I do care, however, how you come on here whining about how people are ignorant and uneducated because they don't agree with YOU. I think we're all here because we are interested in discussion/debate and to learn more, which doesn't seem to be a character trait of people who are ignorant or uneducated.

And really, if you don't want people to make personal snipes about you (*which I have NEVER done, I've only shared my opinions on your attitude since being here), don't share personal information. People making personal snipes about me doesn't really bother me, as I am comfortable with my life, so I have no problem sharing personal information. If you don't like people judging you or sharing their opinions on your lifestyle, don't share them. That's the easiest away to avoid the personal attacks. Me, I really don't care what people say. I know who I am and who I'm trying to be.

Anyway, Microbial Genetics is calling my name, so I must be off.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 9:49 PM


First of all, I get asked questions and I answer those question. Don't you DARE claim people come on here to learn. They come to defend their point. I haven't seen, on one SINGLE post on here, where one person has ever admitted to being wrong or learning anything?

If you don't care what people say, then why in the WORLD have you responded to me over and over again? Attention?

If you would do what I've been asking over and over, just to READ before you speak, you would know that I only said something because, for some reason, most people on here believe it's a good idea for young children to see pictures of aborted babies. and because people were making false and irresponsible claims like Obama isn't even a citizen. Trust me, I don't sit silent when people are blatantly WRONG.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 10:03 PM


Yes, Josephine, because you know everyone who comes to this site's reason for coming here. Suuuure. Ok. What reason do you come here then? To defend your points? Well, that doesn't mean that's EVERYONE'S reason for coming here. I come here because I like to read the articles and discuss issues with people. And YES, I have learned MANY things from people on here, and quite a few of them I would call my friends. (pro-life and pro-choice mind you)

And if you would read before YOU speak, you would have READ that I said I don't care what people have to say about MY PERSONAL LIFE or ANYTHING RELATING TO IT. That has NOTHING to do with my reasons for responding to you. It has to do with my annoyance of your everybody who doesn't agree with me is dumb attitude. That's a very childish attitude to have, and hopefully you'll grow out of it.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 3, 2008 11:20 PM


Uhm, I didn't say anybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong. Ever. :)

Sweetie, I've read every single thing. YOU'RE the one who claimed to know the reason EVERYONE was here, not me.. remember? You can go read it yourself, three comments up. You said "we're all here because we're interested in discussion/debate and to learn more". Well, I'm not here for that reason. Looking at other comments, I'm going to guess I'm not alone in that.. I'm here because I want to get MY point out. It's okay to be Catholic, pro-life, and support Obama. I can speak from a young persons point of you, a soldier's point of view, and the point of view of someone coming from a wealthy family who sees that our tax hikes are good for the general population. I believe in equal rights for same sex couples.. I'm probably one of the most open-minded people when it comes to new ideas. THAT'S why I'm here, instead of on a board from school or something, where everyone agrees.

Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 11:42 PM


"I can speak from a young persons point of you, a soldier's point of view, and the point of view of someone coming from a wealthy family who sees that our tax hikes are good for the general population."

Do you see your wealthy parents as part of the "general population"?
Tax hikes are good for who exactly? How do you define "general population"?

Posted by: Janet at November 4, 2008 6:58 AM


It's okay to be Catholic, pro-life, and support Obama.

And just cause you say it is, doesn't make it so. Go ahead, support him, but don't act all outraged when partial-birth abortion is legal again. It will be your fault. :)

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 4, 2008 8:05 AM


And if McCain wins, it will be your fault that the number of deaths in Iraq doubles, and the number elderly who can't afford healthcare. I just hope you don't have any grandparents. Shucks for them if McCain wins, because I know my Grandma would be in trouble if he wins. :) Sooo, you may care about babies.. but I care about all people. :)


And I didn't say my parents wealth was common. Being people that are going to be directly affected, and negatively for his tax plans.. they still think it's a good idea. The economy needs HELP, so in the words of Jon Stewart, "why would we keep doing what's not working!"

We've tried giving the rich tax breaks. Now let's try it for a different class of people.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2008 8:56 AM


Posted by: Josephine at November 3, 2008 7:14 PM

You are obviously lacking the knowledge to know that, good or bad, the economy has ups and downs. I do not blame either party because that's just the way the world works.

I don't want to pay a lot of taxes. I have paid less under Bush than under Clinton, freeing up more of my money to give to charity, which I do often. Again, the government cannot run a charity. Republican or Democrat they are incapable of a streamlined process. They bleed money and nothing gets accomplished.

Since you were 2 when Clinton took office I'm sure you don't remember that he promised tax cuts to everyone and their brother - then two months after taking office he says Sorry! I need money, not only are you not getting the tax cuts I promised but I'm INCREASING the tax to the very people I promised cuts.

And just one more thing. Yes, my husband makes WAY too much as an elementary teacher, that's why I want to keep my money. I mean we buy a new car every week, we just don't know what to do with it all. All six kids have their college paid for and they all go to the best college-prep boarding schools around. It IS YOUR ELITIST mentality that makes you think it's okay to say who makes too much and what we should do with it.

You are so blinded by your own self-righteousness it's pathetic.

Posted by: Kristen at November 4, 2008 10:13 AM


If your husband is an elementary teacher, YOU probably make under 200,000... so YOU wouldn't be paying higher taxes. I wish you'd read the tax plans before you cut them down. :)

Annnnd, why does it matter about how old I was when Clinton was President? They teach in HISTORY classes that he is one of the best presidents the US has ever had. He had the ONLY budget surplus in 100+/- years, unemployment was VERY low..

I never said who makes TOO much. *I* didn't force you to have six kids. I didn't tell you you shouldn't care about others, you should be allowed to keep all your money for yourself. With Obama's plan, it will be EASIER for kids to go to college. So I sure am sorry you feel sorry for yourself.. but I definitely don't mind helping out others.


I must say, we put this on the overhead at my Poli Sci class because I told the teacher it was hilarious. Now, don't get me wrong, it was embarrassing for the whole class to hear me defend my sex life. However, it was priceless to hear my teacher talk about one-issue voters and uniformed voters.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2008 11:57 AM


Actually you did say most of us on this blog "probably make too much anyway..."

My point wasn't about Clinton. Reagan was president during a bigger economic boom than Clinton. Did you even READ what I said about Clinton? Gee, do you think that MAYBE he had a surplus because he RAISED TAXES FOR THE PEOPLE HE SAID HE'D CUT THEM FOR? You really are thick in the head.

Posted by: Kristen at November 4, 2008 1:42 PM


Josephine said, "They teach in HISTORY classes that [President Clinton] is one of the best presidents the US has ever had."

Do they use a curriculum written by Mr. Ayers? Or does he himself teach the history? I can't remember what Mr. Ayers teaches.

Posted by: Jon at November 4, 2008 1:43 PM


Josephine, I should say that I really am heartened to hear that you are pro-life (agree that induced abortion should be illegal). So I truly am mystified by your support of Mr. Obama. His support for those who "provide abortion services" has been one of his most consistent and reliable traits.

Posted by: Jon at November 4, 2008 1:47 PM


1.) I said SOME of us PROBABLY make too much. I didn't say EVERYONE should pay more taxes. And, I REALLY don't care if Clinton raised taxes for ANYONE because, guess what, BECAUSE of Clinton's administration, the economy was FANTASTIC. People could AFFORD to pay more taxes because people were making more money.

2.) No, the history teacher I'm referring to is from a high school class.. I haven't taken college history. In terms of what Clinton did for the U.S. economy and for foreign relations.. he was great. I'm not saying his morals didn't need work.

3.) I support Obama even though he is pro-choice. Now, while I do think it should be illegal...that doesn't change that I don't think the weight should be on him. It should be on the people willing to have abortions. They are the ones, I believe should be focused on.. and then a candidate's stance on abortion would be a moot point. I wish he were pro-life, and that would make everything easier. Unfortunately, as much as I agree with John McCain on abortion... I differ with him on every other issue.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2008 2:15 PM


I would still be mystified if I didn't know more about you from discussion on another thread. I would still be mystified because Mr. Obama isn't just "pro-choice" a little bit; he's so rabidly "pro-choice" that he voted against the Illinois BAIPA, designed to prevent infanticide. When exactly will be the right time to make induced abortion illegal? After Mr. Obama passes his Freedom of Choice Act, which he vowed he will pass as soon as he (I hope not) gets into office?

Posted by: Jon at November 4, 2008 3:53 PM


I am a little confused..are you in high school or college Josephine? You were talking about this site in a high school poli sci class? But you're pre-med at UofI? Something isn't really adding up here.

But really, I don't think many of us are one-issue or uninformed voters. I know I'm not. Obama being rabidly pro-abortion is just icing on the cake for me as to why I DIDN'T vote for him. But this is a pro-life website, so of course it would emphasize Obama's anti-life positions, and we talk about them. If this were an anti-war website, we'd be focused on John McCain's war positions. But it's not. Us being here and talking about Obama's abortion beliefs and citing that as ONE OF THE REASONS we're not voting for him does not make us one-issue voters..or uninformed.

Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella's Momma) at November 4, 2008 5:02 PM


I was talking about this class in a U of I college class. It was a high school history class that said Clinton was one of the best presidents. What doesn't add up about that? That's why I said my history teacher said that, not my Polisci teacher.

And, I didn't say everyone was one-issue or uniformed... but many are.

Posted by: Josephine at November 4, 2008 6:13 PM


Pro-aborts are generally the one-issue or no-issue people. They don't leave much of a posterity.

Posted by: Jon at November 5, 2008 10:49 AM


"By the way, AGE means nothing."

Janet: You have a lot to learn. Like respecting your elders. Could you be any more rude?

Ha! Yeah, Janet! You tell 'em!

Dang young whippersnappers these days anyway.....

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:52 PM


It was a high school history class that said Clinton was one of the best presidents.

Josephine, a lot of it has to do with the economic times at hand.

Clinton, like Reagan, Bush Sr., and even Bush Jr. until the last couple years benefitted from declining interest rates and an "easy-money" policy from the Federal Reserve Board.

Clinton didn't "do" much at all to make the economy "good" but he also didn't act precipitously and screw it up much more than it already was. And I put "good" in quotes because the debt problem that we're now facing was building all the while.

Likewise Bush Jr. isn't "at fault" for all or even much at all of the financial strife we're now having.

Posted by: Doug at November 5, 2008 4:56 PM