We have to start looking outside of churches for support. It's been nearly 40 years; if they haven't cared, why should we expect them to start now? We need to take our message to a broader audience, engaging people of every faith and no faith. The Atlanta "Too Many Aborted" campaign is a great example of this approach.
In a similar vein: http://secularprolife.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=333

Listening to loony, frameless, foundation-less "pastors" like these two guys is one of the many reasons I am so grateful to be Catholic. Though the Church is far from perfect, the Catholic Church has ALWAYS defended the sanctity of all human life and declared abortion AND contraception a grave sin against God and His gift of life. Pope Paul VI prophetically warned us that this is what we were headed for if we embraced a contraceptive mentality, and he was absolutely right.

This Reality church needs to get real. Good for Todd.

I share his frustration with churches. As a pro life educator I always say that my toughest customers are the churches. They use every excuse in the books not to mention abortion. They don't want to talk about it for fear of hurting someone's feelings because they know abortion goes on in their flock. They are afraid of losing members. It is so frustrating so I am not opposed to what has to be done to shame the church leaders. And getting back to the showing of graphic pictures, I have kind of changed my thinking on that too. If you have to explain to children what abortion is then the obvious next question from the children is why do we allow this. A question that needs to be answered.

I share his frustration. We are working within our church to change hearts. That is a slow process. God gives us each a unique assignment in this battle. I just want to be faithful to what He's called me to do.

If a church doesn't think that it is its mission to fight abortion, should a Christian join that church, or remain a member? If a church starts losing members over a lukewarm stand on life, that may get some attention.

Picketing in front of a church may be a good way to draw attention to the situation, however using pictures of aborted babies just makes the protester out to be a villain.

One thing I'd consider is this: why not protest at actual pro-abort liberal churches as well, and with greater intensity there where it is more needed? We don't want to drive lukewarm prolife churches into dropping their prolife stance by singling them out for protest!

He would be far better off getting in touch with Greg Koukl at Stand to Reason to discuss tactics to use with this particular church.

There is a right way and a wrong way to stir the hearts of believers.

A stark reality is that 1 in 4 women within the congregations at such churches are post-abortive. That would be the place to start. Bring in someone from a CPC or Rachel's Vineyard or even someone from Operation Outcry (such as Carla) or Silent No More to speak.

Repentance needs to come from within, and not be called from outside. Give some time to let the Holy Spirit work.

Oh - and one more thing, and this is the real sin that's in hiding: many pastors who've had sexual promiscuity prior to being born again, are unwilling to discuss this particular area, because they are unwilling to give their harmful past over for God's glory.

Men who've fornicated may have abortion in their past, but may never know. This stops them from acting in righteousness.

External signs are not going to reveal this secret, but God may use such events to call others in for convicting words. And when God finally does move (provided they are truly born again) you'll see real, unmistakable repentance.

This pastor's theology of fellowship sounds like some form of idolatry. You are anti-gospel if you disrupt the fellowship. The fellowship becomes more important than following God's law and responding to the moral duty that arises from the natural law. As if God has called us all to a unity that is nothing more than a friendly comfort zone.

As a Christian I see the Church as a friendship and I expect support from that friendship for my efforts to defend the unborn and help unwed mothers. The topic of abortion should be addressed in the churches to help generate a culture of life, as JP II described it. The silence only perpetuates a hidden culture of death. It can be a problem to be too moralistic and force upon everyone pro-life activism. However, a strong culture of life allows for the free development of one's personal calling and makes possible the active building of this culture with one's friends and family.

Chris has a good point. He has them speaking with him, why not propose an approach to building pro-life awareness in a manner that addresses some of their concerns. What he is doing is good and is beginning to work. Why go right to the graphic photos when his original approach can still produce some fruit. Doesn't he seem to be forcing the issue on them too soon?

Jennifer, I am no longer Catholic but I do wish the fundamentalist Baptist churches would speak out more in defense of life. I know many born-again Christians who feel the same as me...here is a harvest field of tender souls ready to receive Christ! We can help save babies and point their moms to the love and forgiveness of Jesus Christ and yet so many churches do NOTHING!!!!!

To these two pastors I warn you...I WARN YOU---you will one day stand before God and He will ask you why you sat in your comfortable pews and cared more about "church unity" than stirring up your people to end abortion. He will ask you why you lounged in your homes while down the street unborn boys and girls had their arms and legs twisted off their bodies with forceps. He will ask you why you didn't heed the warning while girls in your own congregation secretly went off to have abortions. I have heard so many testimonies of women who were active in churches yet when they found themselves unmarried and pregnant went to a clinic and ended their child's life. And these "pastors" sit their and desire to be comfortable rather than getting uncomfortable in order to do a great work for God. SHAME ON THEM! Abortion is the greatest moral issue of our time and they hide inside their mega churches like cowards.

Christ shook things up. Remember how he threw the money changer's tables out of the temple and made a huge scene? The pastor's should re-read their Bibles.

As Fr. Pavone says, America is not going to stop abortion until it sees abortion. Legal abortion is the longest, most supported, most looked-away-from Holocaust ever. Graphic abortion pictures change a mind. If it were not so dangerous to pro-life folks, it would be powerful to see them on every traffic island in America, beginning with Washington, DC--it would help turn abortion back into the deeply shameful *cause* it really is. If graphics is what it takes to wake pastors who have been abdicating a crucial part of their ministry for decades, making them utterly complicit and enabling their flock to remain asleep to it, too, then so be it.

(*shudder*) What pablum some people peddle, in the name of "Jesus" and "Church"; those two pastors are incredibly deceived. God bless and prosper Todd's efforts.

When did Christians change from being "truly charitable and loving" to being "fastidious and sentimental"? Love isn't a feeling; it's a *choice* to sacrifice of oneself for the best good of another person, no matter how you may be "feeling" at the time. I really think many people are closing their eyes in death on the way to hell, simply because they sacrificed the Gospel for "good fellowship" (something like a spiritualized Elk's Club meeting).

Argh. Watching watered-down Christianity makes me far madder than watching the most vitriolic atheism; at least they're not pretending to speak for Our Blessed Lord!

Todd deserves a 21 gun salute!

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:34

GOOOO TODD!!! I've felt the same frustration!

After attending a large church in MD with a strong pro-life ministry, I moved to NJ to get married. We visited many churches in the area in search of a home and my first question to them was always, "do you have a pro-life ministry". I always got a "not really, but we are pro-life" answer. So I couldn't use that as a deciding factor to attend a church because NONE of them had a pro-life ministry.

I have been trying to enducate people in our church about pro-life issues for the past 6 years since we joined. It has not always been easy to get people involved. However, after watching this video, I do have to thank GOD for our pastor. He is completely sold out to the pro-life mission and is not afraid to speak from the pulpit about it.

But it does make me sad that born-again, evangelical believers are so poorly represented at the various events I attend. People always ask what parish I belong to, assuming that I must be Catholic. (BTW BIG thank you to our Catholic brothers & sisters for their hard work!!)

Jesus said we would do 'greater things than these' not because we are greater than He, but because there are MILLIONS of Christians. If the Body of Christ had truly stepped up to the plate, abortion would never have been made legal to begin with. There are plenty of pastors willing to tickle your ears but few who are willing to risk being politically incorrect by calling sin sin-whose fault is that? Ours, for not calling them out on it.

Todd's ministry reminds me of the beginning of John 8.

One school of thought is that Jesus writes the sins of the Pharisees into the dust. How different is Todd in what he is doing? Todd is calling out the sins of the churches, namely what most churches are guilty of today ... OMISSION.

Churches fail to teach about sin because fellowship and inclusiveness are Priority One and it keeps their members in their seats to fill the collection plate.

Charity requires not only teaching the good things we must do, but also teaching the bad things we must avoid.

We invite you to stop your divisive anti-Church activism and return to fellowship that ignores the murder of innocent human life. We really only want to be best friends forever!

I know as a Christian maybe I shouldn't be, but I am so ANGRY right now reading that e-mail from that 'so-called' pastor! For him to address Todd in that manner, and to have the NERVE to say "While we completely agree with and share your heart for the unborn"....obviously NOT! This pastor seems to be a modern day Judas Iscariot who will 'God Bless You' to your face, then stab you in the back (in whatever form) when you're not looking. This pastor seems to be in need of PRAYER more than his congregation.

"At one time your family was in fellowship but silent about what the Lord had apparently put on your heart regarding the unborn."

This sentence saddened me. Be silent in fellowship. The silence is deafening.

Makes me want to stand on my rooftop and SCREAM about how my abortion affected my life! I admire Todd and will be praying for him. What boldness!

Chris,
I am in agreement with what you wrote. I have become a resource for a newly formed prolife group in my town who are approaching all pastors in our area about the sanctity of life from conception to natural death.(covering topics like euthanasia, stem cell research, abortion, adoption)Some pastors are enthusiastic, some are luke warm and some want nothing to do with it.

When I think of all of the post abortive men and women sitting in churches my heart aches to speak with them. I am praying for invitations to tell my story and call out to those who have been SILENT for too long.

Wake up, sleeping giant, before it's too late...

I should clarify....I have a heart for post abortive women and men in and out of the church!! :)

I was one of those who sat in service after service for years and years in my silent shame after my abortion.

Pamela,

No worries, I think, about your anger; there's such a thing as righteous anger... especially in the face of such sanctimonious, unctuous hypocrisy. Anyone can slap whatever words they like into a sentence describing themselves, their message, etc.; the trick is to be sure that the words are actually true, and actually apply!

To wit:

What's worse is that you blame God for your actions. Of course I will share your email with leadership, but I want to be clear that I consider your anti-Church activism to be idolatry and your pre-meditated actions anti-Christ and anti-Gospel in nature.

Mm-hmm. So long as he substitutes his private definitions of "Church", "idolatry" and "Christ", his statement can go on swimmingly. Apparently "rebuking Church members and local assemblies" translates to "anti-Church", in his mind. I wonder if he's ever read St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, or 1 Corinthians, or--heck, *most* of St. Paul's letters! "Stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you?" How terribly anti-Church... [/sarcasm]

I do not dislike you personally, but I have no tolerance for your anti-church actions and I fear you are being lead down a clearly anti-Christ path, coming against the preaching of the gospel and worship in Ventura in the name of activism.

So long as he thinks "my preaching = Gospel", that makes perfect sense. It's a pity, for his point, that it's not true.

While we completely agree with and share your heart for the unborn, we maintain the previously communicated position that divisive church picketing is not consistent with our Biblical understanding of fellowship, Christ-centered evangelism, or our calling to be the Body of Christ in the city of Ventura.

That, at least was true enough. HIS "Biblical understanding" of fellowship allows no reproof for being oblivious to state-sanctioned mass-murder; HIS "Christ-centered evangelism" uses a tailor-made "Christ" who conveniently agrees with him on all key points; and HIS "Body of Christ" seems to be defined as "all of us who are content to smile, clap along with worship songs, and offer good prayerful feelings toward the many evils". As Todd mentioned, St. James has some pointed words for those who took such a view.

We see your picketing activities as unbiblical,

I suppose it's true that there are no explicit mentionings of "picketing" in the Bible, yes. That view would also forbid us to condemn human cloning, I suppose... and abortion, for all that.

and as a church we are called to confront, warn, and remove divisive individuals (Titus 3:9-10).

(*sigh*) It's also useful to have an accurate translation of the Greek, when spouting Bible verses:

Titus 3:10: "Hairetikon anthropon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou [...]"

Stilted translation: "A heretic man, beyond the first and the second reproof, shun [...]"

Even a moment of logical thought on the part of the pastor would have shown him the nonsense he was speaking; mere "divisiveness" can be either good (Matthew 10:34, etc.) or evil; it's not evil by definition.

It's also rather ironic that he may well have indicted himself by that same Scripture citation.

Our goal as a Church is to obey and imitate Christ.

A laudable goal. It's a shame that he hasn't the least idea how to go about it.

We do this in fellowship and in agreement according to the Bible by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

"The Holy Spirit", eh? I remember this same pastor saying, just a few lines before: "What's worse is that you blame God for your actions." Aptly put, but wrongly aimed.

Blech. Enough... it makes me wish I could give my brain a shower, to clean it, after reading this bilge.

Pamela,
Own your righteous anger!! I have it too!! :)

It sounds like most churches want to SING A LITTLE LOUDER! The slaughter continues...

Hmmm....On the one hand you have Todd, on the other hand you have the Westboro Baptist Church. I really see no difference between the two, other than one is an individual and the other is a group. Both seem to think that their actions are noble and just, but fortunately, most people find them disgusting. Even your own church, as detailed above, finds this behavior deplorable. But keep it up, because it just reminds those on right side of the abortion war that the fight must go on!!!

I sympathize and agree with much of what the pastor said in the video (not in the e-mail -- was that a different person, I assume?), until he started making excuses.

I guess my question to him and others is what would they have done if their church was in Nazi Germany? Would it be at all appropriate to minister to Nazi families, trying to keep their marriages together, while the sin of the Holocaust so overwhelmed the other sins? How do you even spread the Gospel, in that environment, without calling people to repent and realize the evil that's going on?

We have our own Holocaust -- what are our churches willing to do about it?

My wife and I were forced to stand in a blizzard on Superbowl Sunday morning outside our former church, where the pastor would not let us collect inside. We've been to many churches, and hundreds of Colorado churches welcomed us in. Not generally the largest.

There were 3 major churches in that neighborhood, and none of them allowed us inside.

Hmmm....On the one hand you have Todd, on the other hand you have the Westboro Baptist Church. I really see no difference between the two, other than one is an individual and the other is a group.
Posted by: Jake at February 19, 2010 11:48 AM
**********************

Hmm, let's see...the message of one is "unborn babies are human beings, so stand up stop the killing" and the other is "God hates fags."

Yeah, pretty sure there's a difference.

This pastor seems to have made an idol of "fellowship." But I'm not sure Todd's strategy of using graphic images will be effective in this context.

As I see it—having conducted graphic "Face the Truth" Tours for seven years and in several states—the purpose of public displays of abortion pictures is to change people's hearts and minds on abortion. It's not to recruit activists.

Of course, graphic images can be a helpful tool in convincing people who are already pro-life to get more active; I use them in my talks to such audiences.

But in this context, I don't think they'll work, and may even backfire, leading church members to decide that "if that's pro-life activism, count me out."

My own thinking on how to deal with pastors reluctant to have their churches get involved in pro-life ministry is to try to reach out with dialog (I'm assuming Todd has done this), but if it fails, to walk away.

And as for recruiting people to get involved fighting abortion, it's all honey and vinegar. People need to be invited to get involved, encouraged to consider it a privilege to do this work. I don't think the pictures are going to be effective as invitation.

But all that said, I don't know the dynamics of Todd's church, and perhaps he will meet with success. Or maybe the pictures will turn someone away from choosing abortion, even if they also turn the church farther away from Todd, too.

Eric Scheidler
Executive Director
Pro-Life Action League

I'm all for pro-lifers getting confrontational with churches. I'm not a Christian, and LOVE to inform apathetic (read: not actively pro-life) Christians that I'm following their God's teachings on life better than they are.

I have been called anti Christ, dead wrong, anti church and now I have been compared to the Westboro Baptist Church. I once was told that I do not serve the same God as the church serves. All of these things hurt me but I want everyone to know that it is my love for the church that I stand at its gates. I do not hate the church. I sacrifice the love of those that I hold most dear for their own welfare. The Church is Gods bride and so important, too important to allow it to ignore and do nothing about abortion. When a pastor tells me I am anti church or anti Christ it really does hurt me but I must be obedient to Christ and I thank God he lifts me and my family up.

Your prayers are such a blessing to me and my family. Thank you all.

Jake wrote:

But keep it up, because it just reminds those on right side of the abortion war that the fight must go on!!!

So... tell me, Jake: which side of the abortion war do you think is the "right" side? Be specific, please, without euphemism.

I really encourage all those people who are our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to find your local 40 days for life action and ask how you can help. It is amazing how faithful people can come together to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!
just google "40 days for life and your city"
you'll find a contact there and hopefully can start some pro-life ministry within your own churches.

God Bless!

Here is a guy who stood at the gates of the church. I dont know if he had a sign?

Jeremiah 7
American King James Version

1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Stand in the gate of the LORD's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD. 3 Thus said the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 4 Trust you not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these. 5 For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if you thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbor; 6 If you oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: 7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.

Hey Ed, this is another Ed.

(Two Ed's are better than one! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm going to have to come up with another username.)

First, great question Jill, and a bunch of great comments.

Ed, your Holocaust analogy is exactly the one I was going to use. When I stand before the Lord on Judgment Day and He asks me what I did about the thousands of babies that were killed within a few short miles from my house, I don't want to just stand there with a blank look on my face.

You said Ed that you agreed with what the pastor said, and I do to, but it's what the pastor didn't say that is most disturbing.

Like so many pastors that have adopted the "seeker-friendly" approach, they invite congregants to "try Jesus" and add Him to your life and everything will be peachy.

You don't hear much about the Holiness of God, or a good healthy Fear of the Lord which is the beginning of Wisdom.

And you don't hear much about sin or repentance or the Cross.

I'll just say this for now (I'm sure something else will percolate up over the weekend):

Almighty God the Father, Who is Holy, did not send His Son to the Earth to die a criminal's death on the Cross; shed His Holy Innocent Blood to redeem Mankind from sin, wickedness and iniquity for us to live ho-hum, casual, lukewarm lives. Especially when people all around us are dying and going to Hell, killing their babies, sick, defeated and walking in darkness.

Maybe I just don't get it, but if you don't agree with a church, why don't you find a new one? One that you DO agree with, and supports you in whatever you want to do in terms of picketing and such? It just seems silly to me, but like I said, maybe I just don't get it.

Erin,

Picture Jesus standing next to Todd outside of the church asking, "They won't let you in there?"

Todd answers, "Nope"

Jesus' reply, "Me neither."

There is a remnant of believers Erin who are calling the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ to be what it should be: salt and light to a dying world - not just a social club to join but God's instrument to bring salvation and restoration to the lost.

I have found a new church. God is good.

Shame on that Pastor! Teach your OWN children the truth - which it does not sound like you are doing, and then are attempting to pastor a church body! No better than the pharisees! God will NOT be mocked forever - Todd is NOT divisive or anti-church, you all are!!

Some pastors are so blind. What an awesome guy that is standing up against those who are turning a blind eye in the name of "we all have different gifts". I will continue to pray for this man. What courage and strength and passion he has for the unborn.
These pastors have lost sight. I know that have probably not meant to, but thay have. When abortion is running rampant and excuses are many, they need to at the least aide the agencies that are fighting on the fronts. There is no reason that the CPC should be unsupported by these churches.
If this man happens to read this: Thank you for your stand. It is a pleasure to be on the same team as someone willing to stand up to the church while loving the church. You have my prayers and WooHoos!

Thanks, Paladin and Carla. I guess I'm just trying to keep my Righteous Indignation in check for now for the sake of the child I carry. Don't wanna get my blood pressure up...I want 'him' to stay put for the next 8 months.*Yes, I just have a 'feeling' that we're having a boy....we'll see!* :)

Todd Bullis commented already. :) THANK YOU for taking a stand!

Hey Pamela,

Congratulations! Don't totally stifle that Righteous Indignation, just keep it a low simmer.

If your unborn child grows up to be another John the Baptist, which our country desperately needs, he'll probably enjoy it!

He's probably sayin', "Preach it Mama! Go on with your bad self!"

Paladin wrote:
"So... tell me, Jake: which side of the abortion war do you think is the "right" side? Be specific, please, without euphemism."

Hello Paladin, so good to see you on yet another blog. We really must stop running into each other like this. I always enjoy our witty banter back and forth. I think you know my position, so I will just leave it at that.

I am a member of a non-denominational church (some might disparagingly call it a "mega-church") and it's always been my church's policy to remain strictly non-political. "Todd's" actions here are absurd, offensive, and pointless, and I can say that I would have a hard time controlling my anger if someone like this stood outside my church during services, holding up obscene signs for me and my young children to see, because he's offended that we don't specifically subscribe to his favored stance on a given social issue. I don't know, and I don't want to know what my fellow worshippers think about abortion. It's an issue that does not belong in our services and would only disrupt our fellowship with each other and with God. For the record, I don't like abortion (does anyone?) and would never get one myself unless it was a medical emergency or I was raped, but I don't feel that it's my (or anyone else's) business to tell women what medical decisions they should make. It's a PRIVATE issue. Pro-lifers should stop and think about how they'd feel if pro-choicers started demanding that they be forced to get abortions, because that's the exact reverse of what pro-lifers are doing by agitating for abortion to be made illegal.

Amber, does abortion take the life of another human being?

Is the killing of another human being always strictly a "private" issue?

Are you familiar with the commandment which states "Thou shalt not kill?" Is it taught to your children in church?

Could you please tell me what you find "obscene" about a photo of an aborted fetus, and why?

And finally, there are many, many women in the church today who have had abortions in the past. Getting angry at the people shining the light on a grievous injustice to a particular class of human beings isn't going to help them. Sweeping those events under the rug isn't going to bring them healing.

And sometimes, as in the case of what happened under the Nazi regime, we need to see photos of the brutality so that we realize what actually happened/happens. Do you shield your children's eyes from photos of concentration camps? They are brutal, yes, but do you get angry that history museums display such photos? Do you tell the museums they shouldn't show the photos because they're "too political?" That it's none of our business to say whether the Nazis were right or wrong in what they did to a certain class of human beings?

Amber...clearly, if your church is all about "fellowship" and not upsetting the apple cart with any relevant moral/spiritual issues then I will just come out and say your church is like the church's of Revelation. Real pretty and showy but spiritually dead. How can you not know if your fellow church members are against child murder or not? That is absurd to me. How can you profess to love Christ and be bothered to go to church and yet be so spiritually blind and hard. Unless you go to church to be "entertained"

Someone here already posted that God did not send His Son to die an agonizing death on the cross so you can go to a "mega church" every week and sway to music and throw your hands in the air and then go home and turn a blind eye to the sorrow around you in a lost, wicked world. Get up off your keester and lay up some treasure in heaven for our Lord's sake!!!! The lives you save will have eternal value...your little church luncheons and get togethers will HAVE NO ETERNAL VALUE.

Abortion is NOT a political issue. It is a moral issue. It is a spiritual issue. And you need to get on your knees and ask God for wisdom. He will grant it to all who seek it,. I pray every day for wisdom because I know I need it in my life. This is one area He has always made abundantly clear. Life is precious. He is the giver of life and the taker of life. Read Revelation and see what God does to the spiritually dead churches. I wouldn't want the judgement coming to your church and others like you for all the money in the world. By refusing to speak out against the slaughter of boys and girls their blood is on YOUR HANDS. And the Bible says judgment will be worse for Christians than for unsaved people. The unsaved people were slaves to their father the devil, but as a Christian you know better. you have the Holy Spirit to guide you and yet you do nothing. WHOA TO YOU! You are a church of vipers. Just like the Pharisees. Putting on a show of godliness but having no true godliness within.

I would never quibble with a fellow Christian over stupid things like "Is drinking wine a sin?" or "Is rock music of the devil" and all the stupid things I've heard Christians argue over. But a clear cut moral issue like this I will not be silent!

And if you think I'm being self-righteous and judgmental...GOOD. Cause I am offended for the sake of Christ that you sit there and allow babies to die with your stuck-up apathy. Church is NOT about the building. Its NOT about being entertained. Its about building a relationship with GOD and allowing Him to transform your life to do His will.

Dear Amber, what church do you pastor? You sound like many of the pastors I have talked to. I hope I can visit your church very soon. I have some pictures I would love to share with you and your congregation. I have one question for you, what is worse the pictures or what is happening to these babies. Why is it that people think the pictures are bad but its ok to kill the babies. If aborting your baby can be a good thing why are the pictures always viewed as a bad thing?

Abortion is murder how can you defend it?

Hello Paladin, so good to see you on yet another blog. We really must stop running into each other like this.

Ah. So you *are* the same Jake! Even though you used the same name, the same snark, and the same insubstantial "drive-by flames", I didn't want to assume...

I always enjoy our witty banter back and forth.

Now, if only you could add a bit of logic and sense to your bits of banter, we'd get on even more famously!

I think you know my position, so I will just leave it at that.

I do, certainly--but the rest of this blog's listeners may not have known about your strident pro-abortion stance.

I don't suppose you'd care to answer any of the previous questions I asked you about this topic? It'd be a shame for you to recycle old verbal "incendiary grenades", when you could actually make some progress toward a reasonable point...

Pro-lifers should stop and think about how they'd feel if pro-choicers started demanding that they be forced to get abortions, because that's the exact reverse of what pro-lifers are doing by agitating for abortion to be made illegal.
Posted by: Amber at February 19, 2010 3:29 PM
**************************

Clearly, you're missing something here.

A forced abortion takes the life of an innocent human being.

Making abortion illegal (that's *elective* abortion, btw--not in a life or death case such as tubal pregnancy) would result in lives saved.

Kel: I don't pretend to have the moral authority to know whether abortion "takes the life of another human being" or not. The fact that you seem to think you do says a lot more about you than it does about me, abortion, or anything else. All the philosophers and clergy and doctors in the world can't even agree on this issue and they're a whole lot smarter than I am.

What's obscene about a photo of an aborted fetus? Can you really be asking this? What's obscene about a picture of a bloody, aborted fetus? If you're even asking this question then I obviously can't explain it to you, but if you asked 10 people on the street, picked at random, if they think such pictures are obscene, I think I can guarantee you that 10 out of 10 would say they are.

Nobody is being sweeped under the rug in my church, thank you very much. If they are in attendance then we are all doing our part to help them recover from whatever thing (if any) it is that bothers them. If they have a particular problem that relates to their abortion, then I'm sure the pastor would be more than willing to discuss the matter PRIVATELY and do whatever he can to help.

SydneyM: Sorry, but I disagree with your opinion that abortion is a moral and spiritual issue. I respect your right to that opinion, and I'm really sorry that you don't respect my beliefs in return. Calling my church a "church of vipers" and implying that our fellowship is nothing more than "entertainment" for Sunday mornings is deeply offensive to me, but I'll just leave it at that. I won't lower myself to your level and insult your faith in return.

And BTW, about your comment about getting up off my "keester": you should know that my "church of vipers" does in fact engage in many charitable endeavours (we recently donated a large sum of money to the relief efforts in Haiti, for example). What have you done to help other people lately?

I don't pretend to have the moral authority to know whether abortion "takes the life of another human being" or not...

SydneyM: Sorry, but I disagree with your opinion that abortion is a moral and spiritual issue.
*************************

If abortion isn't a moral issue, then you don't need "moral authority" to say whether or not a fetus is human. So...is a fetus human, Amber?

What's obscene about a photo of an aborted fetus? Can you really be asking this? What's obscene about a picture of a bloody, aborted fetus? If you're even asking this question then I obviously can't explain it to you, but if you asked 10 people on the street, picked at random, if they think such pictures are obscene, I think I can guarantee you that 10 out of 10 would say they are.

Did you just answer my question with a question? You are doing a great job of dodging so far, Amber. Now, again, why is a photo of an aborted fetus "obscene" if that fetus is not, in fact, a human being that has been mutilated?

Amber,

Kel and Todd (and definitely, count on my prayers for you and your family, Todd!) addressed this nicely, already, but just for the record... you wrote:

I am a member of a non-denominational church (some might disparagingly call it a "mega-church") and it's always been my church's policy to remain strictly non-political.

I see no problem with that, actually. Just remember that abortion is a moral issue, not merely a political one... so the Body of Christ must certainly get involved in it.

"Todd's" actions here are absurd, offensive, and pointless,

Forgive me, Amber, but--at least on this particular point, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're arguing from emotionalism, so your talk about "absurdity" and "pointlessness" (both logical terms) are useless, unless you prove your case. As for your offense--well--I can only bring to mind the words of Jesus: "Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

and I can say that I would have a hard time controlling my anger if someone like this stood outside my church during services, holding up obscene signs for me and my young children to see,

I echo earlier questions: what, exactly, makes them obscene? Please think this through.

because he's offended that we don't specifically subscribe to his favored stance on a given social issue.

Amber, you have it exactly backwards. Todd doesn't think his stance is correct because he believes it; he believes it because it is correct! Don't you see the difference?

I don't know, and I don't want to know what my fellow worshippers think about abortion.

Ah. Willful ignorance.

It's an issue that does not belong in our services and would only disrupt our fellowship with each other and with God.

So do you, when you decry what he's doing! Are you going to hold yourself to your own standard?

For the record, I don't like abortion (does anyone?)

This is precisely why we must use our heads, rather than our hearts, to recognize God's truth in this matter (and all other matters). See Jeremiah 17:9 for God's view of the "reliability of the human heart"--i.e. our "likes and dislikes"--as a moral compass.

and would never get one myself unless it was a medical emergency or I was raped,

Amber, please think about this. If you were raped (God forbid), and if that rape conceived a child, then she would be innocent of all wrongdoing. It would not be right for you to murder her out of grief, spite, or any other reason. Check out Rebecca Kiessling's story for a better description of what I mean.

but I don't feel that it's my (or anyone else's) business to tell women what medical decisions they should make.

That must depend entirely on *what* "medical issue" is being considered. Should the Church micromanage the type of over-the-counter pain-reliever that a person chooses? Not usually, no. Should the Church stand in the way of a Dr. Mengele and his "medical decisions"? Undeniably, yes. Don't "mush" all "medical decisions" together; those which brutalize, kill, or otherwise defile life cannot be ignored as "none of our business"!

It's a PRIVATE issue.

No, Amber, it most certainly is not. No murder is "private", even if it's done in secret, and/or with the blessing of civil law!

Pro-lifers should stop and think about how they'd feel if pro-choicers started demanding that they be forced to get abortions, because that's the exact reverse of what pro-lifers are doing by agitating for abortion to be made illegal.

Think about what you're saying! You equate "I will force you not to have your child killed" with "I will kill your child by force"? You seriously don't see a qualitative difference between the two goals?

"It's an issue that does not belong in our services and would only disrupt our fellowship with each other and with God." Posted by: Amber at February 19, 2010 3:29 PM

Hmmm. First time I read the comment I missed the part about disrupted fellowship with God. How sad that it's disruptive in one's relationship with God to consider whether killing in any stage of the human life cycle breaks one of the 10 commandments. Or to ponder whether dehumanizing life in the womb is a devaluation of the incredible gift of the Incarnation.

Wow, interesting, diverse comments, the meatiest conversation I've read in awhile.

I'd like to jump waaaay back to Jennifer's 7:13a comment, which was, "Listening to loony, frameless, foundation-less 'pastors' like these two guys is one of the many reasons I am so grateful to be Catholic...."

Jennifer, despite the strong pro-life teachings of the Catholic Church, I've had many, many, MANY Catholic pro-lifers tell me how disappointed they are that their pastors refuse to take a strong stand against abortion, both in the pulpit and by lack of support for their Respect Life ministry.

The "sing a little louder" mentality plays itself out in Catholic as well as Protestant churches across America.

Todd might be doing a huge disservice to the cause of the cross and the mission of Christ. I don't know the guy personally, but a church needs to reach out to unbelievers. Certainly, a church with massive signs out with graphic images is going to be an unwelcome place to unbelievers. I think there are churches that activism is the answer for - but for Todd to say what a church should or shouldn't stand up for is to put his own message above the message of the entire body. It's a selfish message that tears the body of the church up and puts his own motivations above all others.

Most of us go to church. What if trucks started coming in front of our church with graphic pictures of starving children? How about AIDS patients? What about pictures of child porn on the side of a truck. Hey, they are all issues churches should take a stand against.

Sorry I'm getting worked up here - but this guy has the mission of the church so screwed up that it really is driving me crazy. I'm from a family of pastors - and there's people like this in churches everywhere - there heart is good in general, but they put their own personal missions higher than the mission of the church and Christ Himself. I think the pastor's letter is right on the mark on this one - and those who make fun of the pastor - I'd do so at your own risk of slandering a leader of a Church.

Abortion is not a POLITICAL issue. Its a human rights issue. A MORAL issue. Did Jesus not love the little children? Each child is a gift from GOD and these "mega churches" need to stop building huge buildings and instead use their $ to help unwed mothers who are desperate and in need of support, so they WON'T abort.

Abortion ends the life of an innocent child, a child that has done nothing wrong.

Todd: When you speak to those pastors who are luke warm, ask them if they refuse to see JESUS in the unborn child?

This Todd guy is essentially Fred Phelps - plain and simple. I think this is about as misguided and twisted of an approach that I've seen in a long, long time.

Paladin:

"It's also rather ironic that he may well have indicted himself by that same Scripture citation."

Numbers 32:23 -

Be sure your sins will find you out.

;)

Ah, Chris, "Give some time?" Are you saying FORTY YEARS isn't long enough? Is this a joke post?

Posted by: carla at February 19, 2010 11:14 AM
-------

Carla - that's a good, godly approach. Some pastors will be unconvinced (non-convicted?) but if you build a swell within their congregations, God will deal with their obstinate attitudes.

For the most part, pastors don't realize the depth of pain and just how widespread the suffering is. Also, to a great extent, past sexual promiscuity (with resulting consequences and on-going patterns) is poorly understood by most people. As I've said before in the comments, guys are pretty detached from their past behavior because they don't have direct physical consequences. Also many have been shielded by girls who weren't quite sure who fathered the child.

I read through some more previous comments and I see another comparison to Fred Phelps group. I think it's a bit accurate of a description - not only in regards to a misguided message, but kidnapping the message of a church.

Again, I'm possibly overly sensitive, but I've known of people in churches having a fit about the amount of time spent on Y2K preparation - or the amount of time doing certain service projects. Pastors have a job and that is to lead their congregation and bring people to Christ. You can't have people protesting to hijack the message of a church. So they spend more time on abortion - then what is the next message?

Where I think the issue is, is Todd thinks he's smarter than the pastors and the congregation, and he believes that the message he has is superior to where they are placing their time. He's undermining the pastor's role, their authority, the structure of a church, and the message that God himself might be trying to preach.

It is one thing to meet with the pastor and talk about what he believes. Quite another to protest. What a joke.

And lastly, to bring signs of aborted babies to church - a place that families should feel comfortable in - I think that is just sick. Again, there's part of PETA that believes Jesus was a Vegan and we should follow that lead. What if those folks showed up with big pictures of have skinned minks?

Todd - if you are reading this, I have no doubts you are a follower of Christ. I simply think this is about as misguided as it gets. It is great you are passionate, but do you really think you are winning folks over to the message of Christ?

Oh good Amber...you helped people in Haiti. That is wonderful. I did too...can I now go kill some babies? God didn't call Christians to be faithful in SOME areas but to be faithful in ALL areas.

Are you that ignorant of the Bible? Really? Its my opinion that abortion is a moral and spiritual issue? Really? Read Psalms where David talks about how God formed him in the womb...the Bible is full of beautiful passages that speak of God's interest and care of the unborn. You have no excuse. Read God's word...it can't be made any clearer to you.

Posted by: CBR at February 19, 2010 6:02 PM
-----

No - it's not a joke post. You may want to reread that in proper context, because you're holding me responsible for stating that God's timing is different than our expectations when it comes to post-abortive healing.

I believe God extends His grace to those aborted. Not believing that would send most who fight for life over the edge. God uses small hammer blows to deepen our faith over time, never using more force than we can bear. And He is revealing something about the human heart. And if He wants to do something awesome, He will - in His time.

As much as I or anyone else want to see this abomination halted immediately, as you point out, for forty years it has continued. There is little probability it will completely stop tomorrow. The sin is deep, incredibly ugly and spread across the world. I fear the reality of such depravity would overwhelm those without Christ.

While many would love to see a wave of conviction run across this nation, there are so many cold, proud, hardened hearts out there. Others, who want to be free, hold back, fearful of the shame and scorn that is too easily doled out.

Yes, the truth should be given, but there should be love in that truth.

My advice above to Todd was to call upon the pastors, pointing out their wrongs, brother to brother, showing them the full extent of abortion, but doing it with wisdom and grace and not necessarily public confrontation. When possible, win support within the congregation, by preaching a full gospel of Life.

Dear Ex-GOP Voter.

Let me ask you what is worse, what is happening to these babies or holding up the pictures of what is happening to these babies. Did you know that most Christians have never seen an aborted baby? Did you know that most Christians have never seen an abortion? I believe that most Christians have not really looked at this issue and it has become a non issue.

You have spent a fair amount of time now writing post on how you think what I am doing is wrong, I wonder how much time you have spent trying to teach the church how wrong it is to stay silent on the issue of abortion.

I find that people who defends the churches position, ignoring the abortion issue have spent little or no time working to end abortion. Is this the case with you?

I remember a Sunday School song I sang as a child. The chorus goes "Go ahead, laugh at me, I won't let it bother me! Even if I stand alone, I will do whats right!"

Keep fighting on Todd. I hope God will stir some hearts because of your conscience-searing presence. I know I will give an account of my life someday. I choose to speak out for the least of these...our unborn brothers and sisters.

And Amber...don't worry about discussing abortion and disrupting your fellowship with God. If you are not in the center of God's will your fellowship is already disrupted. I really doubt God is okay with Christians who keep abortion as an option for themselves if they are raped. If you are raped and conceive a child, didn't God allow that for some reason to bring honor and glory to His name? I am just shaking my head at you. I can't even say anymore. It boggles the mind how someone can claim Christ and be so willfully ignorant and so angrily defend SIN.

Todd @1:18PM: I hope the new congregation will welcome your zeal for the unborn. I know what it's like to leave a church you care about. It isn't easy. I pray that your new church brings you many blessings and leads you to an even closer relationship to the Almighty. God bless :)

Todd -

First off, what is happening to those babies is a terrible thing. So are you going to protest until the church does exactly the steps you lay out for them? Is your wisdom higher than those called by God to lead the church?

What about what's happening to kids in the Congo - babies in Africa - citizens in Iraq. There's people passionate about the gospel and those causes as well. So maybe they should print up big signs of kids who have been blown up by bombs, or kids 5 minutes from starving to death - and put them on the sidewalk until they get their way with the church.

Or about what people in poverty? We have a high percentage of veterans as homeless people. If somebody thinks that is the number one cause the church should go through, maybe they should print up signs.

Look - these pastors and people of the congregation have a job to do - and that is lead people to Christ. They need to lead a church, dealing with the financial, political, and spiritual issues that come with the position. What you are doing is saying you are smarter than all of them - and that God is giving you the right answers, not them. You are throwing a little fit, hanging out on a sidewalk, and saying "my way or the highway".

Yes, what is happening with abortions is a terrible thing. But what gives you the right to take people called by God and tell them that this should be their number one issue - that they should turn their back on lost sheep, those who haven't been to church, or other causes because this is what you demand.

The church is not about you.

The church is not about you.

You don't get to make the rules.

Ministers that I have known, including my father, have had to put up with similar BS through the years - luckily, not on a scale like this. What you are doing is causing division within the church. You are making a harder job for the people called by God. It's a disgrace.

Again, I don't care if your cause is the most noble in the world. Handle it like a man. Better yet, handle it like a Christian.

Am I angry - yes I'm angry. Christian churches have enough pressures to deal with - enough people scrutinizing their actions, attention, finances and motives. They've had people within their walls thinking they have all the right answers - direct messages from God Himself that the church should follow.

Now you take the cowardly approach to stand on the sidewalk and post little videos because you are smarter than people called by God to do the job of Christ. They don't need that pressure.

And I didn't even get into the graphic pictures - again - great way to say "Jesus loves you" to the kids going to the church that day. I have small girls - I would keep them home rather than face them seeing that. Great way to spread the love of Christ Todd.

Todd -

I don't want to ignore your question to give you that "out".

I pray often that the Lord ends abortion on this earth, and ends the suffering of sin on this planet.

God hasn't called me to undermine pastors and their authority or hijack the mission of churches regarding the issue.

Quite frankly, I'm guessing He hasn't called you to do that either. It is your own selfish desire to do that.

Matthew 18:15-17

Sure, if you think somebody is sinning - follow the steps. Not sure where the step is regarding pouting like a baby, making up signs, capturing video and undermining those called to do the good work of Jesus. Do you have those verses.

But hey ex-GOP voter...you're all about the love of Christ right? Using "BS"...we all know that stands for blessed sugar right? Crass. really really crass.

BOO HOO...the church has PRESSURES! SNIFF. Yeah, get used to it, Christ told us we would be persecuted and hated...they hated HIM FIRST, remember?

I think Todd is like a modern prophet. Yeah, those crazy prophets stood on the street and warned God's people when they had fallen away and were tolerant of sin. Did you know the Israelites allowed the worship of Baal/Molech and his wife Ashtareth (who was like Aphrodite) and that the Isrealites burned their babies alive as part of their child sacrifice to these gods? And God's people were just like you, and just like Amber...too comfortable in their own little lives to care. And God sent prophets to say WAKE UP BEFORE WE ARE ALL JUDGED!

So ya know what x-GOP voter? ya know what Amber? WAKE UP. WAKE UP. WAKE UP.

Dear Ex-GOP

Prayer is important I agree but what are you doing? How long do you have to pray before God tells you what to do, a month, a year, 10 years? How old are you? Do you speak up for the unborn at all?

I do what God is calling me to do. You think i am undermining the Church but I love it enough to tell it that it is on fire. Your like the guy who sees his neighbors house across the street on fire but don't want to go wake him up because it is late and you don't want him to get mad at you for call so late.

God is going to hold you, Christians and the pastors accountable for their inaction.

EX-GOP voter and Amber...

http://www.forerunner.com/champion/X0040_Massacre_of_Innocenc.html

Abortion will lead to our judgement as a nation. But it will be okay cause you'll be in your mega-churches with your pretty clothes and feelin real good about yourself...it'll all be okay. Don't take a moral stand. Just be a coward...but hey! At least you'll get along with everybody!

Sydney - if you believe in the Bible, you should believe in proper authority within Churches, proper steps for revolving issues, and appropriate ways to deal with division.

I think you should try one thing. Go to your pastor and ask how he would feel if somebody from another church didn't agree with the priority of where they spent their time, so they protested out on the sidewalk, made videos of their thoughts, and "threatened" to bring graphic pictures.

Ask your pastor - I would love to hear the response.

Todd -

No Todd - you aren't allowing God to hold people accountable for their non-action - you are deciding to hold people accountable.

What shocks me even more is YOU DON'T EVEN GO TO THAT CHURCH! So you are out protesting at other churches because they don't do what you want?

Let me ask you this - what would you do if you got to church next week and I was outside with huge signs, saying your church had strayed because you hadn't sent enough money or help to Haiti. And I brought big signs with mutilated bodies. Is that not a cause that God would be involved with?

Again, I'm not saying abortion is not a worthy cause. What I'm saying is you are taking a personal calling and throwing a fit because a church isn't doing exactly what you want them to do. If they are called in a different direction by God, well, you don't care - because you seem to think you are smarter.

Move on, grow up, get involved in your new church and let them do what they are called to do. Again, you are dividing the church and their mission - not a great place to be standing.

Would it matter? First, I am involved in a church that is SCRIPTURAL including standing up for the unborn. Secondly, say some homosexual activist was out there holding signs that said we should support gay marriage. It wouldn't mean a thing to us because we know homosexuality is contrary to God's plans.

Now, Todd is pricking the conscience of churches that claim to follow God's Word and claim to be against abortion. He is standing out there as a thorn in their side to wake them up from their comfortable slumber. We are in a spiritual WAR. And it is claiming the lives of children and the souls of men and women.

Since you know so much about the Bible EX-GOP ask your pastor what he thinks about Christians who claim to know what is spiritual and right yet have a "froward mouth" and "perverse tongue" like you. You're claiming to know what Todd should do scripturally and yet you use crass language. nice. Kinda undermines everything you have to say.

Sydney -

I think you are missing the entire point here. It is a huge issue, I agree.

But let's pretend Jesus is here Himself preaching on the street corner about greed and money. Do you think it's right to say "Hey Jesus - keep quiet a second and look at my signs - THIS is what you need to be talking about."

If this church is full of Christians has pastors CALLED to lead the church, then what Todd is essentially doing, and you are supporting, is saying "hey, my ideas are more important that what God is leading you to do."

It doesn't matter if it is important or not - I'm quite sure that the two of you are called to do wonderful things to end abortions - but to PROTEST outside a church that doesn't go about it the same way - a church that has a different calling and spends its time and resources differently - to protest is essentially to say you don't believe that the message God has given them is correct.

And even if you are truly crazy enough to believe that - the Bible speaks to that as well. Let them go! If you fight it and they ARE from God, you're just fighting God!

Sorry - a little fired up here - but this is the worst of the worst here - Christians attacking Christian churches, putting their own personal pride above the call of Jesus.

Sydney - if I was without sin, I'd be casting the first stones. Never claimed I was without sin. And you are sort of grasping at straws with the "perverse" tongue argument.

Do you believe that if a person doesn't believe that a Church is spending their time and resources where the individual personally thinks they should spend their time and resources, that the proper, Biblical steps are the steps that Todd is taking.

Plain and simple question for you Sydney.

are you just saying that Todd is going about it the wrong way to get Christians to wake up and help end abortion / reduce abortion? Is that all you're saying, exG?

Dear Ex-GOP

I am not holding them accountable I am doing what God has called me to do. The difference between what your say and the truth is that I am doing what God is calling me to do and you are saying I am having a fit. You are just incorrect. If any man could come to my church and said God is calling me to tell you to repent and take action I would think long and hard and ask my self is this a crazy man or is God really trying to reach me. So Ex-GOP voter you still have not answered my question. Do you speak out against abortion or is that a none issue for you. Most Christians say they hate abortion but the Biblical definition of hate is at enmity with, at war with. Are you at war with abortion? is so what do you do. I have asked you this a few times now and so far you have done nothing that we have heard of, pray yes but what have you done?

I do commend you for sticking up for the luke warm church, the problem is the church is filled with people just like you. That is why abortion is not really an issue. The Church spends more time in band practice than on abortion issues. Most churches pay the landscaper more than they help with a Crises pregnancy center.

Amway I grow tired of your hard heart.

I will pray for you and please don't stop praying for me.

Todd.

Liz - essentially, yes.

I'm saying that Pastors have a very difficult job, but a job that I believe comes from God and is guided by God.

If we have differences with how a church is spending their time or resources, then go about the proper channels of dealing with it. If there are still differences, leave the church.

But essentially, at the end of the day, you either need to say that the church and its leaders are either from God, or not from God. Either way, protesting in front of a church, especially in a way that is going to drive children away, is not the Biblical way to do it.

Pastors don't need that.

Furthermore, lets say Todd is 100% right - heck, lots of people are supporting him on this board. Could you imagine if this is the way Christians decided to "take up their cross". "Let's go protest at this church - they got a big new piano instead of helping the soup kitchen!" "Let's go bring signs to this church - they have no missionaries in the middle east!".

Come on folks - the people of this board are smarter than that.

Heck Todd - you seem smarter than that.

Plain and simple Todd - are the folks in that church doing the work of God. If they are, leave them alone - you are fighting God. If they aren't, then you are in dangerous territory - but is it worth hanging around and fighting them? God says he'll deal with false witnesses (which I doubt they are - they seem to have a solid Biblical based message they are preaching".

We are not talking about pianos or soup kitchens we are talking about murder, in my town there is over 100 churches and only two of them give to CPC. I see girls and parents going into Planned Parenthood and I talk with them and most of them that talk with me go to church. I know their pastors and they have never heard a sermon about abortion. I have gone to church 40 years and have never heard a sermon on abortion.

Todd,

Keep on obeying God brother. Don't pay too much attention to Ex-GOP. He means well and can quote scripture but he isn't hearing what the Holy Spirit is saying to America right now, which is exactly what your sign says:

REPENT!

From what you ask? I'm glad you asked.

(And this goes to the core of your debate with Ex.)

First, there isn't a child conceived that God didn't plan for.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations." Je 1:5

He has ordained a life plan for every child conceived in the womb.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Je 29:11

Now in addition to God's plan, satan has a plan for each of us:

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy." Jn 10:10

God's plan: Life

satan's plan: death

And mankind is in the middle with a free will.

It's that simple.

Now you'll hear Christians, non-Christians, Christians in Name Only, all tell you that you are going to far. This is a very good indication that you are in fact doing exactly what God wants you to do. And you might as well save your breath and just tell them, like Jesus said to Peter, "Get behind me satan."

Religious devils are pro-life and are content with your pro-life stance, as long as you don't do anything to actually stop abortion.

Remember what we're talking about here (this is what gets religious devils really angry, when you shine the spotlight of truth on what is evil).

We're talking about a little child in his or her mommy's womb, the place designed by God to nurture and protect the baby from harm. And you've got a serial killer with a medical degree reaching inside this safe haven with one of several weapons designed to brutally rip the poor child into pieces, while it is still living.

This happens thousands and thousands of times each day, day after day after day after day.

And the religious devils cover their eyes and ears and say, "Don't tell me about it, don't tell me about it, you're divisive, it's not my calling, la-la-la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la-la-la-la-la."

"I'm asleep in lethargy and sin, don't wake me up."

And the children keep dying.

if I was without sin, I'd be casting the first stones. Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 19, 2010 11:06 PM

Didn't you cast a pretty sharp stone comparing Todd to a hate monger like Phelps?

But essentially, at the end of the day, you either need to say that the church and its leaders are either from God, or not from God.

Whether they are called by God is the only thing that matters? Does "the call" mean they become incapable of sin? That they cannot grow lax or lukewarm? Even the Lord's own apostles strayed, but you give the impression that modern clergy cannot.

I get the feeling it isn't Todd's speaking up that bothers you, EGV. It's his message that enrages you. You're an Obamacare guy. I bet if he was holding up pro-Obamacare signs in front of a church that opposed Obamacare, you'd be hailing him as a soldier for Christ.

I would like to thank you all for your prayers and for your words of encouragement. God is so good. I in this world and in the after life look forward to meeting you all.

Todd.

If it is ok i would like to give out my youtube link to all my videos, some are better than others but the video that was placed on this web site is one of a 4 part series

http://www.youtube.com/user/noplannedparenthood#p/u

Todd.

God bless brother.

I'm fighting a similar battle out here in Michigan.

I'll keep in touch and we can compare notes on how best to wage this war.

Peace

After seeing a self-proclaimed "pro-choice christian" who was just on this board the other day, (@KushieIsMoon), I'm surprised we are even having a debate about what Todd is doing. Isn't it obvious that what he is doing is sorely needed, because there are such misguided souls out there who need to be told that you shouldn't kill, and that abortion is killing, and not to do it, because they're obviously NOT being told this anywhere, let alone church, if someone comes here and tells you all about how she is a "Pro-Choice Christian", and there are institutions such as "The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice"...and if there's a place in the world that needs to say such things, it IS a church! I'm not even religious, and I know THAT much. Someone is dropping the ball here, and Todd is trying to help them pick it back up. Discouraging that is shameful.

How many women who get abortions each year are church members? How are they not getting the message "Thou shalt not kill.", one of the most important tenants of Christianity?! How many WOULDN'T be getting abortions if their pastors and priests just SAID SOMETHING ABOUT IT? And more importantly, how many babies would that mean didn't have to die?

I'm not a Christian. God didn't ever tell me anything. But I know that killing a helpless human being in abortion is very, very wrong. Now, how is a person like me going to be more moved to do something about it, say something about it, and speak up for those people than others who love to tell me how sinful I am and how they have the direct line to God? If anyone has the direct line to God around here, it's Todd.

Matt 25:45

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Who here is doing naught for the unborn? Who here is advocating that?

I say good for Todd!!! to take on this issue. I can only imagine the disgust and frustration I would feel with Christians who basically don't care very much about the slaughter of children in their midst.

And I feel similar to Jennifer. While I have frustration with lazy Catholics, including lazy or wimpy priests and bishops, I also take great joy in knowing that the Church has led the way in this area since the beginning. Considering the ratio of Catholics to all other kinds of Christians in the US, who can deny that there is a much larger percentage of Catholics in pro-life leadership?

(That being said, I would LOVE to see more Protestants like Todd coming forward- the more the better!)

I know I am standing on firm teaching in the Church's Scriptural and time-tested teachings about sexuality and human life. I spent about three years as an Evangelical, and it was partly the life issues (and Jesus in John 17) that called me home to Catholicism.

My current parish has the strongest pro-life team in the San Diego diocese. They pray hard, work hard, and by the grace of God are helping women in concrete ways and saving the lives of their children every single week.

I agree with Todd that we will all be held accountable for the destruction of innocent life all around us. Sadly, many comfy Christians of all kinds need reminding. It is love for God and His children that urges us on in this task.

You and your family have my heartfelt prayers, Todd. It is not what I would do to reform the church's thinking, but if it is what God has told you to do, He will give you the grace to accomplish it.

I did have one thought about all this. It is about the girls that you have talked to walking into the clinic, that say they attend these churches who are lukewarm on life issues. Perhaps the greatest impact you would have is in telling these girls where they can find churches that will follow the Bible's mandate for life, and will help them with their pregnancies. I hope you have a list of those churches. During 40 Days for Life, we on the sidewalk have a list of pregnancy centers and churches to recommend.

I trust God to deal with this church, Todd. Be encouraged that you do right in helping these women. And, as I've learned, BE the change you want in your churches. Stand up if the Lord is leading you, and START these prolife ministries in the walls of your church. And if your church stops you, then shake the dust off your feet and move to a church that will or has one already established. By doing so, you may be saving more lives, rather than quibbling over who should do what.

God's peace.

Speaking of His children, if you would like to check out some nice videos of unborn kids, go to:

www.ehd.org

Some churches just prefer to NOT get involved. They are afraid. Some may be afraid of losing their members or perhaps their tax exempt status.

I would ask them, what would Jesus do? Do they forget his mother was a teenage girl who was in, essentially, "an unplanned pregnancy" in a way?

I am so glad my parish priests aren't afraid to talk about the evils of the world, including abortion.

"Pro-lifer Todd's personal mission is to rouse mega-churches in the Ventura, CA, area to become more proactive in opposing abortion.

"To that end Todd has been picketing those churches, holding 2 signs, pictured right...."

Todd is bumping into the problem, but he does not yet recognize it.

The 'church' leaders are more interested in preserving the 'institution' than they are in liberating the body of Christ to be who they were individually and corporately 'called out' to be.

1 Cor 12:12-14 12 For just as the body is a unity and yet has many parts, and all the parts, though many, form [only] one body, so it is with Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

13 For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one limb or organ but of many. AMP

'church' IS the problem.

Humans are stupid and religion only exacerbates our inherent dysfunction.

But GOD can fix 'stupid'.

Weaning us off 'religion' and into relationship with HIM and each other is the path HE lead us on to wholeness and holiness.

'church' ,or 'god in the box' as I like to think of it, is one of the most misunderstood words in the christian lexicon.

'church' is an inherently flawed substitute for the body of Christ.

'church' is a religious tradition.

'church' is the english word seltected to translate the greek word 'ekklesia' which literally means 'called out ones'.

The body of Christ/ekklesia is in mired in 'church' but 'church' as we have come to understand and experience it is not the equivalent of the 'ekklesia'/body of Christ.

Eph 1:22-23 22 And He has put all things under His [Jesus] feet and has appointed Him the universal and supreme Head of the church [a headship exercised throughout the church], [Ps 8:6.]

23 Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all [for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself]. AMP

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. NIV

Col 1:18 He [Jesus] also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent]. AMP

Col 1:24 [Even] now I rejoice in the midst of my sufferings on your behalf. And in my own person I am making up whatever is still lacking and remains to be completed [on our part] of Christ's afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church. AMP

Ask GOD to disabuse you of 'church' and give you a revelation of the body of Christ which as the precedng passages have shown is more than just the bread and the wine.

yor bro ken

Fedup - You couldn't be further than the truth. I don't care if Todd's message was abortion, Haiti, AIDS, starvation, whatever. Todd is saying that the calling that the church has received is wrong. Furthermore, he's not only saying that, but then going an anti-Bible route of working with the church on it. Furthermore, he doesn't even go to that church.

This is a hot button issue of mine - members of a congregation, or outside a church that attack the core of a church. It's wrong - flat out wrong and does no service to Christ and churches.

I would like to throw out a challenge to all the fine folks on the board. Call your pastors today or talk to them in church tomorrow. Ask them, if you disagreed on how the church was spending their time and resources, what the proper steps would be.

Furthermore, ask about what they suggest if another church doesn't seem to be spending their time and resources correctly - if you should go protest at that church?

I'm just shocked that this board has so many smart people on it, but more people aren't calling Todd out on this. I think it's a slap in the face to the entire ministry of churches everywhere.

Could you imagine Todd in front of a Billy Graham crusade saying "Billy, your message is off - you should be talking more about abortion".

It's a joke.

Todd -

I'll answer your question directly, and then I have one for you.

I don't do much if anything regarding abortion and crisis pregnancy centers. Now, up until a few months ago, I lived in a town of 2,000 people and didn't live within hours of a center -but that's not the point. Let's say I do NOTHING besides pray.

But, I support now and have in the past various campus ministry groups that are bringing the word of Christ to college students.

So here's my question Todd.

I believe that is a calling for me. Do you believe that I should turn my back on my calling to spend more time on what you say I should? That God is wrong in the message that He's giving me? That God is lying to me?

Todd is saying that the calling that the church has received is wrong.
Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 20, 2010 10:10 AM
-----

Can you please point out the post where Todd is actually making that claim? Thanks.

I for one am completely inspired by you Todd and want to thank you for doing what you are doing. As a post abortive mom I want to thank you for standing against the lies of the industry and telling the world about abortion and asking the church to join you in the fight for the unborn!!

I am grateful that my pastors allowed me to share my story of abortion regret at all 4 services. My story coincided with a sermon about abortion.
Here it is
http://outcrywisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/my-story-at-faith-community-church.html

One of the pastors in Todd's church wrote, "It is unthinkable that you plan to display graphic images unfit for children in front of the church where my own children can see them from their Sunday school classrooms."

Perhaps Todd's church has not followed the trend, but many churches post a large torture device at the front of the main auditorium, in plain view of all congregants assembled there, children included. Some churches even drape the image of a mangled body upon it. The pain was thought to be so intense that we now have the English word excruciating.

If children are old enough to understand the contents of a picture, then they are also old enough to understand that it is only a picture. It's not like pornography, which excites the viewer to engage in the same sin. As a picture, it's like the Lord's supper, in which the believer eats bread as the representation of Christ's body and drinks wine as the representation of His blood--all for the greater fellowship of the Church and union with her head, the Christ.

We don't become cannibals and vampires by participating in the Lord's supper, nor do we become murderers by looking at pictures of murdered children. I wonder whether this pastor in Todd's church ends up using the children as pawns, ascribing to them his unwillingness to experience discomfort in the solution of real problems. If so, this pastor makes himself contemptible.

Incidentally, many Americans, Christians included, eat chicken. How long do most parents shield their children from the facts of such consumption? We use a greater euphemism, fetus, to distance ourselves from the murdered human being than we do from the killed animal, which we simply call chicken instead of a chicken. However, the latter is not only graphic but also tangible. We actually rip it up with our teeth. (Do you eat the skin? I do, but I don't like it as much.)

Perhaps Todd is guilty of insubordination. We're certainly unaware of the history of the relationship between Todd and this church. However, in this one matter, is Todd really stirring up trouble? Why doesn't the pastor simply reply, "Amen! Preach it, brother!"? Perhaps Todd should reply to the pastor, "It seems unthinkable that you plan to condone humanist practices unfit for human beings in the name of the children of my church for whose sake I am urging the church to repent."

Todd,

Just keep your eyes on Jesus and guard your heart.

Remain alert, listen for Holy Spirit when HE gives the warning 'incoming'.

Beware of 'friendly fire' which is just as lethal as the assualts of your declared enemy.

You are more likely be wounded in the back, than from a frontal assault.

Be aware of the 'spirit of rebellion' which so easily corrupts those who war against the 'establishment.

When the cause is just the temptation to employ unrighteous methods becomes more insidious.

Love is foremost a 'verb'.

yor bro ken

This is where I think the protestant church has largely dropped the ball. I cannot believe the church is not united in its stance against this atrocity.

My grandfather, now deceased, was a pastor. The following is a paragraph from a Mother's Day sermon that he preached c. 1980 on Psalm 128.

You notice how this song closes? "Yea, thou shalt see thy children's children, and peace upon Israel"--because man has found his place and because a woman has found her place. Mother's Day--when mothers are saying, "I want to get rid of my baby." That's not an incidental thing. Last year in the United States there were over a million abortions. Since the ruling of the Supreme Court in the United States, there's been over eight million babies murdered because women said, "We don't want to be mothers! We have a right to our own bodies! And we can do as we please." That isn't where it stopped. That's even entered into the matter of birth control, entered into the matter of women not at home but out working because we have to keep up with the Jones's, and we have to keep up with the standard of living which the world has set--not God--the world. So mothers can’t be at home with those olive plants [which] need continual tending. They have to go out working. And the world has introduced that, and the Church bought it.

And the Church is going to pay an awful price, an awful price...

Paladin:

"It's also rather ironic that he may well have indicted himself by that same Scripture citation."

Numbers 32:23 -

Be sure your sins will find you out.

;)

Posted by: xalisae at February 19, 2010 5:46 PM

x,
If you keep reading the scriptures you may find God's presence in the Word...and next thing you know.....you'll be an x-atheist.

I am so encouraged by the wonderful, compassionate, biblical comments on this stream. I am blessed by the prophetic witness of brother Todd.

As a lost young woman of 17 I went to CHURCH counselor & was NEVER told the biblical truth in love. I was never told that my baby was created by God, in His image & likeness. I was never told that God was knitting my baby together in my womb. I was never told that God knew me even BEFORE He formed me in the womb. I was never told that God was knitting my baby together in my womb. I was never told that God knew my son or daughter even BEFORE He formed my infant my the womb. I was never told that my child was a gift from God to me & to my family. I was never told that my having sex with my boyfriend was what the Bible calls sexual immorality (fornication) & that it was such a serious sin that I would not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. I was never called to repent (confess & forsake my sin) & trust Jesus Christ, the Savior of sinners like me. I was never told that God said "You shall not murder". I was never told that all murderers have their place in the lake which burns with fire & brimstone. I was never offered help through pregnancy. I was never told anything about adoption. INSTEAD of being faithful to teach me to obey all that Jesus commanded, for He is worthy of all of my trust & obedience, I was given an empty, humanistic, therapeutic, non-directive, non-judgmental, active-listening session. The nun told me that I had a 'big decision' to make. She treated the actual physical sin of MURDER (which I was already committing IN MY HEART) as if it was simply an 'option', a 'personal decision' or a 'choice'. That was my precious son or daughter she was talking about dismembering & she was calling tearing my baby apart while she was alive a 'decision'! How dare she? How dare the CHURCH be so callous with regards to the little lambs in the womb? How dare churches & pastors & Christians & pregnancy care MINISTRIES speak about poor helpless little infants as if they weren't really THERE? How dare they withhold the Law of God, which brings the knowlege of sin, is perfect, converting the soul & leads sinners to Jesus? How dare they dismiss the Word of God, which is living & active? How dare they LEAVE OUT THE GOSPEL TRUTH for me & for my baby? This is what I have come to recognize from the Word of God as 'suppression of the truth in unrighteousness'. It is humanism, but it is turned AGAINST the innocent HUMAN BEINGS in the womb, who are obviously not considered equal to the mothers. Now, 36 years later I STILL see this kind of women-centered, non-judgmental 'options counseling' all over the CHRISTIAN pregnancy center websites. I see the same kind of vapid, UNBIBLICAL language on the post-abortion websites (secular AND 'christian'). It is WICKED & SPAWNED from hell & this kind of avoidance of actually speaking the gospel truth to our neighbor kills babies &, most important of all, is a stench in the nostrils of God.

Let the church & all of those who refuse to speak the truth in love, boldly, compassionately & ACTIVELY, repent of their unbelief & their being ashamed of Jesus & His Word. For if they don't Jesus will be ashamed of them at His coming.

I applaud Todd for his courageous witness to the Gospel of Life outside his church. I was saddened, however, by his pastor's comments that labeled Todd as an "anti-Christian person." As a pro-life Catholic who has the full support of my church and pastor in the realm of pro-life evangelization, I believe Todd needs to find a new church that has a pastor who will support his pro-life efforts. My pastor has allowed me on numerous occasions to speak from the pulpit on Sundays about the pro-life cause. Though I admire Todd's efforts to change hearts and minds at his own church, I think he should "shake the dust from his feet" and leave this church because his pastor is so resistant to his pro-life work. In my opinion, this pastor is squelching the Holy Spirit's work to spread the pro-life message in his congregation through Todd. May the Holy Spirit lead this courageous and godly man to a new church with a pro-life pastor and a pro-life vision of the world.

Ex-GOP,

God gives us free will even though he knows some, including church leaders, will screw up. That is why he graced Todd to preach the Christian faith to them. You cannot slaughter your children and remain in communion with the Body of Christ.

RINO,

I just finished watching 'Amazing Grace', the story of William Wilberforce's lifetime campaign against slavery.

There is one scene where a preacher broaches the subject of the abolition of slavery in his sunday morning message to the faithful and half of the assembled listeners get their panties in a wad and leave in disgust.

[I have read the history. I know this happened. It is not just 'movie' stuff.]

Sometimes the congregants do the confronting and challenging and sometime it is the preacher.

Based on your comments it seems that your version of the ideal 'church' would be the 'Broadway Church of the Half Saved, pastor Luke Warm presiding.'

Here is a fun question for you to consider. It might get your mind out of the religious rut in which it seems to be stuck:

If the apostle Paul were alive today and had written a letter to the 'church' in the community where you live, what address would he write on the envelope?

Eph 4:11-13 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the ekklesia),

13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him. AMP

I have interacted with believers from many different countries and I have yet to meet one who exhibited the 'stature of the fullness of Christ'.

[Canada, Mexico, Guateamala, Belize, El Salvador, Columbia, Brazil, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, Latvia, Denmark, France, England, South Africa, China, Japan, Kenya, Uganda, Berundi, Ethiopia, Viet Nam, Korea, Taiwan, Poland, India, Philipines]

Where are the apostles and prophets today?

If we have not yet reached that 'stature' individually and corporately, then where are the ones who were 'given' to assist us in coming to that level of spritual maturity?

I know there are many preachers, lots of 'wind and wave' gals and guys, but where are the pastors?

yor bro ken

I urge everyone who follows this blog to check out this website:

www.ehd.org

Click on "Watch The Movies".

They have great videos of unborn children, even very young 6,7 and 8 week olds, moving about and their bright red little hearts beating, etc.

This very clearly shows the humanity of the unborn

Lifesong,
God bles you.

Posted by: Why Does Abortion go on at February 20, 2010 12:16 PM

"This is where I think the

protestant

church has largely dropped the ball."

"I cannot believe the church is not united in its stance against this atrocity."

--------------------------------------------------

Ever hear of 'catholics for choice'?

Stop thinking 'church' and start thinking 'body of Christ' and the picture will rapidly come into focus for you.

1 Cor 1:12-13 12 What I mean is this, that each one of you [either] says, I belong to Paul, or I belong to Apollos, or I belong to Cephas (Peter), or I belong to Christ.

13 Is Christ (the Messiah) divided into parts? Was Paul crucified on behalf of you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? AMP

Were you babptized in any other additional name or names?

yor bro ken

EGV wrote:

Todd might be doing a huge disservice to the cause of the cross and the mission of Christ.

All right; let's try this one more time...

EGV, are you willing to delve into these ideas rationally, rather than merely flinging your emotions and raw opinions into the fray? The latter seems fairly pointless, to me; believe me, we (who disagree with you on these and related points) could gnash, rage and beat you over the head with *our* opinions as well as you ever could. But wouldn't it be more productive to find the actual *truth*, and not mere personal tastes and pet ideas?

I don't know the guy personally, but a church needs to reach out to unbelievers.

Yes... in the right way, and not by disguising who you are, or watering down your message to suit the tastes of passers-by. The very first thing Jesus did, when reaching out to unbelievers at the beginning of His earthly ministry, was to say, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" (Matthew 4:17) It's a grave error for you to assume that confrontation with hard truths, or stridency, are somehow "not in keeping with the Gospel". If you believe that, then you've swallowed a very different Gospel than the one Jesus died to give us.

Certainly, a church with massive signs out with graphic images is going to be an unwelcome place to unbelievers.

Some unbelievers will be put off, that's true. What of it? Do you conclude, thereby, that it's "wrong"? Is your entire spiritual life determined by mere political or social "expediency"? Some crimes are so vile (and so dangerous, for whatever reason) that denunciation is the only right answer to them; the Shoah (the attempted extermination of the Jews by the Nazi regime) and abortion are two of them. I'm truly amazed that you take such a bland, "friends, let us not scare away potential newcomers with unpleasantries" attitude toward the multi-million-fold murder of unborn babies! What level of horror and evil *would* it take, for you (personally) to stand up and be counted among those who denounce it (whatever the social cost)?

I think there are churches that activism is the answer for - but for Todd to say what a church should or shouldn't stand up for is to put his own message above the message of the entire body. It's a selfish message that tears the body of the church up and puts his own motivations above all others.

Friend, you're talking palpable nonsense. By that argument, you would have scolded and silenced Dietrich Bonhoeffer, St. Edith Stein, St. John the Baptist, Elijah, and whomever else didn't suit your personal tastes regarding "non-stridency". You can't simply argue from the idea of "it divides and upsets people" to the very different idea of "it's wrong"! It's also nonsensical to value "decorum" over demands of raw justice.

Most of us go to church. What if trucks started coming in front of our church with graphic pictures of starving children?

Let's make your analogy fit. Suppose the United States initiated a policy whereby children of low-income families, children with disabilities, etc., were quietly taken to (government-approved) camps to die of starvation--perhaps even by their mothers, who'd been brainwashed into believing that such an action was a matter of "womens' rights", "defending personal choice", or even simple justice. Suppose, further, that your church (or mine) was largely apathetic and unwilling to confront that evil--in full violation of its commission. In that case, yes--absolutely--your trucks should come out, and I'd help to pay for them.

How about AIDS patients?

Are you seriously suggesting that the USA has "AIDS assassination clinics" in which AIDS patients are actively put to death by dismemberment, burning, etc.? That's the case with unborn children at the moment, you know. Doesn't the fact that abortion is *murder which is directly committed by humans [some of whom claim to be "Christians"]* make any difference to you at all? AIDS wasn't genetically engineered to wipe out "the unwanted", nor are there government-approved "doctors" running about, injecting people with the HIV. For your analogy to hold, it has to have some fundamental resemblance to the topic in question.

What about pictures of child porn on the side of a truck.

Surely you realize that part of the emotional/spiritual violence done by pornography is in the viewing of it (which is not at all the case with abortion)? Your analogy makes no sense at all.

Hey, they are all issues churches should take a stand against.

Absolutely. But they're too dissimilar for you to use them as you do, in your example.

Sorry I'm getting worked up here - but this guy has the mission of the church so screwed up that it really is driving me crazy.

(*sigh*) And it finally comes down to your raw opinion, again... complete with an ad hominem sneer, at that.

I'm from a family of pastors -

Pardon me, but... how is this at all relevant?

and there's people like this in churches everywhere - there heart is good in general, but they put their own personal missions higher than the mission of the church and Christ Himself.

Such is the slogan of "privatized christianity" (lower-case "C" intentional). No matter how urgent a moral imperative, all you need to do is label it either "political" or "personal", and you expect to lay your opponents prostrate for miles around, thereby. Is it so much of a stretch of imagination for you to believe that 4000 murders per day, sanctioned by the state and tolerate by a mind-boggling number of self-proclaimed Christians, is not a private matter? If this sort of large-scale slaughter of innocents isn't public, friend, then I haven't a clue what is!

I think the pastor's letter is right on the mark on this one - and those who make fun of the pastor - I'd do so at your own risk of slandering a leader of a Church.

"Make fun?" How about "denounce the destructive nonsense with which he's deceived"? And "slander" really does have an objective meaning; it's not simply "that which we don't want to hear".

Christianity is taking on burdens to relieve the burdens of others. Meditate on Jesus' conception where the Holy Spirit breathed new life into Mary. Yes Amber and GOP, Jesus the man was a living human being at the point of his conception and throughout his life inside Mary's womb. Todd is teaching the only Christian path to salvation for those who are party to abortion; repent and accept the ways of Jesus as your ways and he be saved. Jesus warned us not to grieve the Holy Spirit and scripture tells us that it is the presence of the Holy Spirit at conception that bring life into being. This should be irrefutable proof to the Christian that life begins at conception.

Xalisae wrote, in reply to my comment:

[Paladin]

"It's also rather ironic that [the pastor] may well have indicted himself by that same Scripture citation."

[Xalisae]
Numbers 32:23 - Be sure your sins will find you out.

;)

:) Good catch!

I cannot believe this.

EX-GOP!

Do you think Hitler and the Nazi's were wrong to kill 6 million Jews? What if you lived in Nazi Germany during the Holocaust but the laws were different and you had the protection of free speech. Would you say or do anything about the Jews being slaughtered in your midst?

Abortion is the most horrific genocide in the History of Man!!! 50,000+ murdered in our country alone!!! It's going on today, right now!!! By the time you get done reading this post, another 60 will be killed!!!

AND THE CHURCHES...

ARE SILENT!!!

The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, any Christian Church, is supposed to be a Lighthouse in a lost and dying, wicked, world. It's supposed be a beacon of Hope, Life and Love. It's supposed bear the standard of Righteousness, to preach the Gospel, God's Holy Word, the whole counsel of God. It's supposed to be the moral compass for a local community, and for the nation.

It's supposed to provide a clear, clarion call, "Repent from living for yourself. Turn from your wicked ways and serve the Living God Who Loves you and died for you. He will wash you from your sins, bring you into right relationship with God the Father and adopt you into His family as His own son or daughter. And He will come and live inside you and be with you, forever."

THERE SHOULD BE A CRY, A WAILING RESOUNDING FROM EVERY CHURCH IN AMERICA, "OH GOD! OH GOD! SAVE AMERICA! END ABORTION! TURN HEARTS OH GOD! LET EVERYONE SEE THE INJUSTICE OH GOD! BRING THIS ATROCITY OUT OF THE SHADOWS INTO THE LIGHT OF DAY! EXPOSE IT OH GOD! SAVE THE CHILDREN GOD!"

And then coupled with that prayer, there should be loud, clear, strong, authoritative, annointed preaching from every pulpit in America, condemning abortion in the most forceful, unequivocal manner possible.

This is the duty of every Christian Church. It is the only acceptable response to the ongoing genocide of innocent children in our land.

And if this was to occur, legalized abortion would be eradicated from our country.

And deep down, I'm convinced pastors know this but they're scared. Which is why I have no problem with Todd or anyone else standing on a street corner "John the Baptist" style calling them out.

They know better.

It's not the approach God is leading me to use at this time but if God is leading him in this direction, God bless him!

As I've heard WWII vets say," You know you are over the target when you start taking flak".

I'm praying for you Todd!

Here's an excerpt from the sermon "Life to the Full" by Rev. John A. Bouwers at my parents' church, Immanuel Orthodox Reformed Church, on December 13, 2009:

This afternoon as we come together to the Sixth of the Ten Commandments, we're not dealing with something irrelevant or unimportant. The life commandment is not insignificant. It is God Himself addressing us about the importance and significance of life. Now it's funny, in a very sad sort of a way, that today with all of the hype about Copenhagen and the concern for the future of life on this planet, many of the same people that are at the forefront of the concerns of our day are leaders in what we might call a culture of death. There is concern for our planet, there are concerns for the seals, there are concerns for the whales and for the polar bears, and who would suggest that we shouldn't be concerned about such life? At the very same time, when it comes to the rampant murder of unborn babies or the growing threat and comfort that is to be seen around the world with the so-called euthanization of the elderly or the unimportant or the insignificant, then we have to say, with regard to this sad irony, that the teaching of our day, the thinking of many of our day, is not, "Live and let live," but, "Live and let die." It is good therefore that this afternoon we may pick up God's life commandment, and that we may do so on this particular Lord's day in the context of beginning to think in these days about the coming of our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. We do well to have to think about such horrors as abortion in the context of also reflecting on how our Saviour Himself took a body and came into the world as a helpless little one: little hands, little feet.

I appreciate so many of the thoughtful comments here. As I read through them I cannot help but wish that one of you serious followers of Christ had been my 'counselor' or had been outside the abortuary where I murdered my baby. Jesus said that He is the way, the TRUTH & the life & that when we humbly depend upon & obey Him we shall know the truth & the truth shall set us free. God is obviously raising up many faithful ambassadors to speak the truth in love & I thank the Lord for you who are reaching out to aborting women like me.

When I speak with pastors & churchy type folks I like to ask them a few questions as relates to the mandate of God in the Holy scriptures. I bring them James 1:27: 'Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the orphans... in their affliction.." & then I ask how they practice 'pure religion' & when & where do they visit the afflicted orphans in their community.

I give them Proverbs 24:11 & 12: "Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not He who guards your life know it?" & then I ask how they are 'delivering' & 'holding back' those who are being dragged to their deaths in their city.

I give them Psalm 82:4 "Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked" & I ask them how they are 'rescuing' & 'delivering' the weakest & neediest members of our town from the hand of the wicked.

I give them Proverbs 31:8 ""Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are appointed to destruction" & ask them how they are fulfilling the biblical mandate to speak up for those who are appointed to destruction in their area.

Especially for my reformed friends I give them the Westminster Catechism Questions 67-69:
Q. 67. Which is the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.
Q. 68. What is required in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment requireth all lawful endeavors to preserve our own life, and the life of others.
Q. 69. What is forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment forbiddeth the taking away of our own life, or the life of our neighbor, unjustly, or whatsoever tendeth thereunto.
& I ask how they are fulfilling this commandment.

I have never received an answer.

Lifesong, my church's catechism is the Heidelberg Catechism:

Q. 105. What is God's will for you in the sixth commandment?
A. I am not to belittle, insult, hate, or kill my neighbor; not by my thoughts, my words, my look or gesture, and certainly not by actual deeds; and I am not to be party to this in others; rather, I am to put away all desire for revenge. I am not to harm or recklessly endanger myself either. Prevention of murder is also why government is armed with the sword.

Q. 106. Does this commandment refer only to killing?
A. By forbidding murder God teaches us that he hates the root of murder: envy, hatred, anger, vindictiveness. In God's sight all such are murder.

Q. 107. Is it enough then that we do not kill our neighbor in any such way?
A. No. By condemning envy, hatred, and anger God tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves, to be patient, peace-loving, gentle, merciful, and friendly to them, to protect them from harm as much as we can, and to do good even to our enemies.

Todd,

Thought you might find some encouragement in this:

"Let us not despair; it is a blessed cause, and success, ere long, will crown our exertions. Already we have gained one victory; we have obtained, for these poor creatures, the recognition of their human nature, which, for a while was most shamefully denied. This is the first fruits of our efforts; let us persevere and our triumph will be complete. Never, never will we desist till we have wiped away this scandal from the Christian name, released ourselves from the load of guilt, under which we at present labour, and extinguished every trace of this bloody traffic, of which our posterity, looking back to the history of these enlightened times, will scarce believe that it has been suffered to exist so long a disgrace and dishonour to this country."

—William Wilberforce, speech before the House of Commons, 18 April 1791[

Paladin and Ed-

Very simple question. If a Christian does not agree with how their church is spending their time and resources - or another church - is the correct steps to protest out on the streets with signs and videos. Do you feel that they way Todd is going about this is the way that Christians are supposed to go about it?

Wow. You guys are amazing. What GREAT quotes. Love the Heidelberg & that Wilberforce quote is so inspiring & so apropos!

Ed - I don't think it is possible for anyone to miss the point more than you are missing the point right now.

Churches have different callings - just like Christians themselves. For instance, Billy Graham brings people to Christ. Other folks fight for social justice.

This Church looks to be focused on reaching new Christians. If they do that, they'll do a heck of a job impacting lives that might have led to abortion. Regardless though, their mission is finding people who aren't Christians and introducing them to Jesus.

What Todd is saying is, their calling isn't good enough. Now, he's not even part of that church - he goes to a DIFFERENT church -but he's saying that they should spend less time reaching the unsaved, and spend more time on what he wants them to spend time on. Furthermore, my guess is there are certain ways Todd wants them to go about it - not just prayer or donations - but that's probably another post.

So what Todd is saying is "hey, you might be pastors and Christians, but I don't think you are listening to God good enough because I think you have a different calling, and you need to do it my way. But instead of approaching you with my views in private and talking about your "sins" (for lack of a better word, but I suppose that is what he is claiming), I'm going to throw a little fit out here on the sidewalk, while also displaying signs that are going to drive away non-Christians (and probably Christians alike)."

See my issue?

This is a hot button issue of mine - members of a congregation, or outside a church that attack the core of a church. It's wrong - flat out wrong and does no service to Christ and churches Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter

Sounds kind of odd to hear that from a protestant. Martin Luther was wrong?

Ex-GOP, Just a few thoughts. Although many of the women & men (& even the abortionists) often 'profess' to be Christians, you can IMAGINE what kind of a fishing hole the local abortuary is for churches that want to 'reach out'. Jesus is the Great Shepherd. He is THE example of pastoring for all pastors. What did Jesus do? He took His disciples OUT fishing for me. Most churches sit & wait for the fish to jump in the boat. But, Christ taught by precept & example, that we are to GO OUT to where the people are with the gospel of life & eternity. And, no church will ever be able to 'reach out' to a neighbor who is dead. Babies are their neighbors too. Just a thought.

Lifesong - in no way have I said the cause is unworthy. It is a massively just cause to fight against abortion and for mothers who are choosing life.

My issue is - if I don't like the amount of effort your church is putting forth in regards to abortion, feeding the poor, or any other issue, should I go out and protest in front of your church?

Furthermore, is it justified for me to say that your church and where you put your time and efforts - that is all wrong, and you should do what I say you do or I'm going to protest.

Thoughts?

Nobody can seem to answer that - they are hung up on "is this a worthy cause". That is not the point here...

Ex-GOP said on February 20, 2010 at 2:30 PM (and again on February 20, 2010 at 2:44 PM), "If a Christian does not agree with how [his] church is spending their time and resources - or another church - is the correct [response] to protest out on the streets with signs and videos? Do you [think] that they way Todd is going about this is the way that Christians are supposed to go about it?".

Let me attempt to give Ex-GOP's "simple question" a context. Todd Bullis said on February 19, 2010 at 11:25 PM, "We are not talking about pianos or soup kitchens we are talking about murder, in my town there is over 100 churches and only two of them give to CPC. I see girls and parents going into Planned Parenthood and I talk with them and most of them that talk with me go to church. I know their pastors and they have never heard a sermon about abortion. I have gone to church 40 years and have never heard a sermon on abortion."

I'm trying to comment on the Bethany's baby post.
Of course, I am terribly sorry for Bethany's loss. However, while her photos enhance my empathy (yes, empathy, as I have suffered miscarriage and know what it's like to lose a baby you wanted), they do not change my pro-choice position one iota or the fact that I will never vote for a non-choice political candidate. I believe that the POSSIBILITY of life begins at conception and I believe that early term abortions should continue to be safe and legal. First, you are not going to stop abortion. You'll just send it underground. Second, I do not in any way feel it is better to force someone to go through the physical trauma and often life-threatening-ness of pregnancy and childbirth and couple it with complete emotional destruction living, thinking, feeling adults suffer when handing a child over to others to raise. I do not think it is better to force a twelve year old who has been impregnated by an uncle or father to go through childbirth. Better to scrape a few unsuspecting cells from a uterus. A huge percentage of embryos die from natural causes and no one is starting a movement to mourn and protect them.
If you don't agree with me, then don't have an abortion. However, you have no business taking that choice from others.

IMO, what truly is needed is to convert people to living a chaste life before marriage and staying married for life.

contraception is at the root of all abortion and I wonder how many of these churches have contracepting members?
how many have their young daughters on the pill?

it all goes back to having a contraceptive mentality.

It's good to fight abortion. Absolutely.
But we need a two-pronged attack - pull the plank out of our eyes too.

Victoria,
Did you know that when you stand for 'choice' the 'choice' is murder? Do you know infants are murdered by abortion through all nine months of pregnancy? Do you know about Baby Rowan? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnNzIzvT-k

He was certainly not a clump of unsuspecting cells, my friend. And, I find it extremely offensive that you speak of human beings that way. After all, you are a clump of cells yourself & so am I.

But, Victoria, we are so much more than the sum of our parts. We are created by God. Our value is EX-trinsic. "You shall not murder". Children should not be murdered for the sins of their father. Have a heart, will you?

Victoria...you can't POSSIBLY have life in your womb. You either do or you don't. And if you are pregnant and "it" is indeed alive, then by virtue of the fact that you are a member of the human species and you can only reproduce your own kind, the living organism in your womb that, as we said, HAS LIFE is a human being also.

It is not biologically accurate to say a fetus or embryo is a POTENTIAL human being, or a POSSIBLE life. That is just not scientifically accurate.

I am not a catholic or a pro life advocate, I was checking out this site while doing a report on her. I found soo many inacuracies while reading your comments.

Margaret Sanger was not just an advocate of abortion, in my mind more importantly she was an advocate for birth control and reproductive rights. Whether you agree with her stance or not she made a huge impact on womens rights and reduced overpopulation and poverty in our country and abroad.

Sanger was not born out of wedlock, she was the 6th of 11 children, her mother died young from tuberculosis and the effects of having multiple pregnancies. Women often died young at that time.

During her time, the industrial revolution was in full swing, the working class were plagued with more mouths to feed than they could support. Child labor was highly prevelent.

The greater access to birth control, has increased women's freedom to work and recieve an education. It has also reduced population and helped increase the quality of life for all.

I believe that womens sexuality is important, women should be able to enjoy sex with thier husbands without worying about unwanted pregnancies, birth control gives us that right. That is the gift that Margaret Sanger gave us!

I will also say my mother is a born-again Christian. She had an IUD in the 60's. She was on the pill for years. It was never talked about...she never knew it to be sin.

My sister married a pastor (well he was in seminary) He is involved in the church and still furthering his education to better serve in the church. My sister used the pill for years. I got married and was on the pill. Baptist preachers NEVER PREACHED ON IT. We were never counseled on it. When I found out how the pill can cause an abortion I immediately let my sister know. She was filled with regret that she had never been told this.

I guess I was a little like Todd in that I contacted all the fundamentalist churches in my area and said HEY why aren't you telling Christian women about this???? This is sin! This is wrong!

I went 13 years to a private Christian school. From age 5 to 18 I was surrounded by fellow Christian kids. How sad to learn a few years ago that a girl two years younger than me grew up, left home, got into drugs, got pregnant and then fearing the drugs had deformed the baby (as if thats some excuse) had an abortion.

"I will also say my mother is a born-again Christian. She had an IUD in the 60's. She was on the pill for years. It was never talked about...she never knew it to be sin."

yet the funny thing about this Sydney, is that it WAS considered a terrible sin only 30 years before!

The only church that still taught that contraception was sinful was the Catholic church, which of course, the secular world mocked to no end.

One wonders how the sense of sin about contracepting was lost so quickly....

Sydney I'd like to also point out it wasn't the Protestant churches who were negligent either.
I have many many friends who were told by priests that it was ok to use the BC pill.
However, unlike their protestant brethren, we did have a document that warned about the consequences of birth control - Humanae Vitae.

So really, us Catholics have NO excuse.
In our heart of hearts, those who used BC, KNEW it was wrong.

Horay said, "[T]he working class were plagued with more mouths to feed than they could support. Child labor was highly prevalent.

Obviously I disagree with Horay's comment taken as a whole, but I want to focus on the two sentences I quoted above.

I think it was the Earl of Shaftesbury who did more to end the practice of child labor than anyone else, at least in England. He was a devout Christian, probably as far apart from Margaret Sanger philosophically and religiously as anyone could be. Grace Irwin wrote a historical novel about him, I think, but I forget its title.

But now, look to the future! Here is what we must say: "Thanks to Margaret Sanger and the Democrats, the working class were plagued with more mouths to feed than they could support. Euthanasia was highly prevalent."

Oh, and senior labour was highly prevalent.

good points Jon.
But also, it wasn't simply because families were larger.
People always had had large families.
The problem is that the factories did not pay workers a wage that they could live off of or support their families.
Workers had no rights and were often treated with contempt and like dogs.
There was alot that needed changing in 19th century society.
I might also point out that the early women's rights advocates did not see birth control as a problem.
They wanted the right to own property, vote, get educated and choose their mate for marriage.
Most of these women saw having babies and raising families as a very noble role for a woman.

I believe that womens sexuality is important, women should be able to enjoy sex with thier husbands without worying about unwanted pregnancies, birth control gives us that right. That is the gift that Margaret Sanger gave us!
Posted by: Horay for womens rights! at February 20, 2010 3:04 PM

Hooray,
Quit lying to yourself and spreading the anti-life
propoganda. If you are having sex and not worrying about getting pregnant then it is cause you aren;t worried about killing your baby when you conceive. In truth over 50% of all abortions are commited on women who were using birth control when they got pregnant. You psread the "safe sex" and "blob of cells" lie to other women in an attempt so you can feel good about killing your children when they don't suit you. How many proud abortions have you commited already in your life "Hooray"?

As we are inviting our local Sacramento churches to participate in the Spring 40 Days for Life, I hear similar "excuses" on a daily basis, rationalizing why Christians cannot do anything about this tragic Holocaust of abortion.

One avenue I have found to be a successful opening is to persuade Pastors to first include and promote post-abortion healing ministries such as Rachel's Vineyard or the PACE program. Often times, once the church community is able to repent and accept God's healing and mercy for previous abortions, the members are then more receptive to helping with the pro-life, abortion-prevention ministries.

While it will certainly incite anger and draw attention to the issue of abortion, I think graphic signs will only drive those currently sitting in the pew further away from actually helping women choose LIFE at the Sidewalk in front of these killing businesses.

Therefore, I invite everyone across the nation to join the peaceful, prayerful, compassionate, loving, life-saving 40 Days for Life ministry, Feb. 17th through March 28th. See 40 Days for Life for more information.

I am very thankful for all that Todd is doing! Documenting this conversation with the Pastors is very important!

I know this that until we look closely at abortion, until we pray about it, until we cry over it, until we understand it from Gods perspective, until we have seen an abortion than at that point we can have the correct and Godly response to abortion. Until than you can not respond correctly. I pray for you Ex-GOP that you take a close look. Ask God to show you his heart concerning abortion and it will change your life.

Todd.

Dear Ex-GOP I am wondering if you have ever been persecuted for your beliefs or is everything you do crate peace and fellowship? I personally believe that if your a real Christian you will have some level of persecution and if you have none than you might want to see if you are really saved. If everyone loves you than you are of the world and not of Christ. I mean come on look at what they did to Christ do you think we would not face any persecution?

I love the Church but the Church is all Christians not just the pastors and leaders. Please Remember that the pastors are just men like you and I and we are to do Gods will not mans. If I pastor tells me no but God tells me yes who should I listen to?

Standing up for what is right even if the Church will not stand with you is a great honor. I do not see myself as picketing the Church, I see myself as one sharing the heart of God to the Church. I love the Church too much to let it stay were it is at.

Todd

I also think Todd is bang on with the repentence angle.

Our culture not only needs to end abortion AND contraception, it also needs everyone to do penance and repent.

This sin not only belongs to those who have participated in any way in abortion. It is also our sin - each and every one of us.

Todd,

God's blessings upon you. I will be praying for your safety during this time when you stand on the front lines for these children.

And thank you for the reminder that we ALL need to be concerned about what is ACTUALLY happening to children daily in this country.

I do think Chris has a point... you are at least getting some conversation now (and the pastor is showing the hardness of his heart). Perhaps some of the "veterans" of the pro-life movement would be willing to mentor you in how best to respond at this point? (If God has called you to the response you are currently giving, it will be reinforced and I pray for your safety and for the truth of God's word to be spread during your mission, my friend and brother in Christ.)

Posted by: Wynette in Sacramento at February 20, 2010 3:55 PM
--------

Thanks Wynette - pastors are convicted when they face several post-abortive women (and men) from their own congregation who share their own personal stories.

Simple awareness of CPC services can be done without a lot of preaching from the pulpit, but conveyed in foyers and bulletin boards. Invitations to 40 Days events are open, friendly, self-participatory and again, only require notification vs direct effort by the pastoral staff.

Eventually, a cause awareness builds that allows a pastor to preach the Gospel of Life with love and compassion, but yet also with a righteous resolve.

At my church, having an awareness of post-abortion recovery services and a quiet network of support eventually lead to some members sharing their experiences during service. Several others have provided testimony at CPC banquets. The church has become more involved in the cause and has held excellent full-topic discussions with the youth, viewing of ultrasounds at all stages of development during services, and some very moving and Spirit-filled sermons.

Thanks to Todd for his efforts. He is targeting his energy well.

As for the U.S. Catholic church...... much of it also been asleep (though the Vatican has always been attentive) on this abortion issue. Only now is the too little, too late response from the USCCB and CHA on the issue, at the prodding of the Vatican, and likely due to worries about boycotts of American Catholic charities.

Google this exact sentence, without the parentheses, ( It's a Lighthouse When We're Standing Out There ). The top link will take you to an article about Robert Ferguson, now deceased but worth remembering, who used to protest at the churches.

Simple awareness of CPC services can be done without a lot of preaching from the pulpit, but conveyed in foyers and bulletin boards.
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at February 20, 2010 5:06 PM

Yes. We also have a brochure/business card holder on the back of each stall door in the women's restroom. That way CPC and domestic violence resource materials are available without a woman having to approach the more public pamphlet area of the church. You remind me that I need to ask about getting Rachel's Vineyard brochures in there.

Do you feel that they way Todd is going about this is the way that Christians are supposed to go about it?

Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 20, 2010 2:30 PM
*********************

Ex,

Didn't you read my post?

Which is why I have no problem with Todd or anyone else standing on a street corner "John the Baptist" style calling them out.

They know better.
Posted by: Ed at February 20, 2010 1:33 PM

Ed - I don't think it is possible for anyone to miss the point more than you are missing the point right now.

Ex,

I feel the same way about you, like you're not getting enough rest or something.

Churches have different callings - just like Christians themselves. For instance, Billy Graham brings people to Christ. Other folks fight for social justice.

No, Billy Graham is not a local church. Please re-read my post: Ed at February 20, 2010 1:33 PM (slowly) to learn what the local church's function is.

Ex,

Try reading my post several more times and pray for understanding.

Todd,

Though your signs, 'Church Repent' and '4,000 Abortions A Day' are confrontational, they are NOT controversial.

The little 'c' church in America is an impotent wimp.

It does not even possess the 'form' of godliness, much less the power.

Keep scratching, the surface is thin and brittle, and underneath it is a white washed tomb and tottering wall.

yor bro ken

EGV wrote:

Very simple question. If a Christian does not agree with how their church is spending their time and resources - or another church - is the correct steps to protest out on the streets with signs and videos. Do you feel that they way Todd is going about this is the way that Christians are supposed to go about it?

If I promise to answer your "very simple question", will you answer my (several) questions, above--and the questions of many others? So far, you've skidded around them on two wheels...

Answer: I'm afraid I have to reject your inadequate framing of the question. By "does not agree", you equivocate everything from the colour of the doorknobs to the position on child-murder. That, friend, is not only wrong-headed, but bizarre!

Answer variation #1: "If I hated the colour of necktie that the ushers wear during Sunday services, would I think it right to protest against it, outside the building with signs and videos?" Of course not.

Answer variation #2: "If [supposing for the moment that I'm not Catholic] I hated the fact that my church was a do-nothing about abortion, and that the pastors' only replies to me were "peace, peace", while there was no peace (cf. Jeremiah 6:14), then would I think it right to protest against it, outside the buildings with signs and videos?" Yes.

Now, seriously: can you take even ten seconds of careful, objective thought and re-examine your starting assumption (that the fight against abortion is somehow "all about how the church spends its time and resources")? Do you sincerely fail to see how you're equivocating piddling minutae with moral imperatives--the type of font used in the church bulletins (which is an expenditure of church time and resources!), with the desire to see the Body of Christ fight the greatest evil of our time?

You're obviously trying to portray Todd as someone who's overreacting about some pet project; I reply that you're utterly wrong, that you've lost all sane sense of proportion about these matters, and that 10 seconds' clear thought would show you that, plainly.

Todd, I gather that you have moved on to another church. So the protest has ended?
From reading the comments here, I noticed that two post-abortive women commented (only two) and they were both supportive of your efforts. Since no other post-abortive women commented otherwise, I think that is significant.

While I agree with what you are protesting, I fear that it will not achieve any results, but will probably engender bitter feelings on both sides.

The real problem is that pastors are not aware of the extensive damage that abortion has and is doing to everyone, including Christians. Until they get some idea of that damage, they will not be motivated to do anything about it.

Why not ask them to poll their members and find out exactly what issues are foremost in their lives? this could be done as a survey, with key questions on abortion, pornography, infidelity, etc. Anonymous replies would ensure that people could respond with impunity. But it might give the pastors some idea of just how many people have been impacted by abortion in their church, not just women who have had abortions, but also men who assisted in procuring them.

Last fall, I was scheduled to address a small church of 100 about 40 Days for Life and was very eager to invite them to join us. The pastor was getting approval from his elders, when he learned that two of them had had abortions in their past and he called to say that we would not do this, as the subject was "too raw". I suggested that he recommend some post-abortion healing ministry to these women in lieu of speaking publicly about abortion. I don't know if he did this or not. But within a few weeks of cancelling my talk, he emailed me with criticisms of my view on abortion, accusing me of being too judgmental of abortionists no less! Things went from bad to worse and he became quite accusatory. When I asked him to be specific as to what I had said that was so judgmental, he backed off and cut off communication entirely.

This was definitely a case of a pastor with good intentions, who got knocked in the face with some reality about abortion. Rather than face it and deal with it as the problem it is, he sidestepped and rationalised avoiding the subject altogether. Perhaps if he could find out how many of his congregation had abortions, he might have to face this as a real issue that he should deal with. If two women out of 100 told him about their abortions, how many more are there in that church?

In those mega-churches, there would be hundreds. From the video, it is apparent that these two pastors are completely unaware of the extent of the abortion holocaust. The first step must be to bring them to awareness of abortion and just how much damage it is wreaking upon all people, Christians included. And there will be many in their own church, even though they indicated that there weren't.

Perhaps asking for an appointment with them and bringing a post-abortive woman with you, might get you farther than alienating them with signs that get their hackles up. There is certainly a time for signs, but these guys need to learn some basic facts first.

I wish you all the best because you are brave to even try this.

Posted by: Fed Up at February 20, 2010 5:56 PM
------

Fed Up - that's a great idea!

You mean using something like this:

We made these up and so far they've been very effective, but I think being more strategic in their placement would definitely increase clients.

Dear Julie.

I wanted to let you know that the Lord has placed his desires in my heart for his glory and I have a responsibility to speak up for the aborted. I have already been to most of the larger churches here in Ventura Ca. I plan on calling all of them to talk with them and if I see hardened hearts and scales over their eyes and if they will not hear what the Lord has said than I will stand in front of that church with my signs even if i have to stand alone. Christ is with me, I already have more stories than I can share how God is blessing my obedience. I am so blessed that I do not have to stand alone, my wife and two sons are united in this and they stand with me. God has placed this on our hearts and we as a family are united and see fruit.

God has given me Ventura, I start here. I stand before the Churches of Ventura and say, God is calling us all to end abortion in Ventura and beyond. I have no control over what they will do. I just know how great it is to be obedient to God. Many people believe in God but to walk with him and do his will, there is nothing like that.

It is time for all men and woman of Christ to stand up and be counted. This is a battle that we can win.

I believe that this battle must first be fought in our own Churches if we can not win this battle in our own Churches how are we going to help the rest of the world.

Believe me the time is now.

Todd -

Have I been persecuted by people within the church for beliefs that I have? No - I've had differences with people but I believe in dealing with differences internally and allowing the church to move united without division.

Sir - you are picketing a church. You are telling them that their mission, in your eyes, are not worthy enough. You are either fighting against God Himself (if their call is from them), or you are wasting your time.

It is just sad - pastors deal with enough. Move on from the church. Oh wait - you have, but you haven't. You are protesting against a church you don't even go to. Sounds like there's more to this story...

Posted by: Julie Culshaw at February 20, 2010 6:59 PM
-----

Julie - excellent post! And your own blog post on this topic is spot on as well.

Paladin -

Not that my respect means anything to you, but you've lost a lot with this one. That you would support Christians picketing and protesting churches they don't go to because they think that their personal calling is more important than what the churches calling is...it blows my mind. Sir - if your zeal to end abortion is greater than your love for Christ and the world the Lord is doing, that is idolatrous behavior, plain and simple.

What questions have I dodged? I've gotten about 80 through - if there's some you are just dying to know, let me know. This post isn't about me though. This is a post about something who believes that some people who are following their calling are being told false lies from the Lord - and that they need to pick a new falling.

The church hit it on the head - it's divisive behavior and anti-Christian. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind, and my guess is if you talked to any preacher out there, you'd get a similar response.

One of the great sacred songs I listen to and hum through out the day says "Where is a Gideon? Where is the man? Who'll be a leader, and follow God's plan? Where is God's champion...who'll be the one? To stand like Gideon? I'll be that man!"

Of course I sing "I'll be that wo-MAN!"

Read the story of Gideon...we must take a stand. Judges 6-8.

I have prayed for months for men who are more wise than I and God led me to this web page.

http://www.abortionno.org/matt.html

I was stunned how fully sufficient God was in helping me. I should not of been surprised God is just that good. These guys helped me so much. The best advice they gave me was to keep going don't stop and show the body of Christ what abortion really is.

Todd you are doing the right thing. I belong to a traditional Protestant church, and we have similar apathy in our church, even though we have a strong pro-life position.

All Christian churches are not putting their money where their mouth is, despite what one commentator stated about how faithful the Catholic Church is. You could wear out 3 pair of shoes in my city going from Catholic parish to Catholic parish, and never hear a word about pro-life.

We all are in the same boat; we suffer from the dry bones syndrome. (Ezk 38) Even the Evangelical stream has become nice and polite, or as one writer described them, "the nicer than Jesus crowd". They (evangelicals) now suffer what they accused mainline Christianity of 200 years ago.

It is time to wake up Church, and that means every denomination. Lord, please "put flesh on them dry bones"!

What's ironic Todd is, let's go to verse 19 as well.

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

What you are continuing to say though is "hey, Reality Ventura Church - I realize that you want to make disciples of all people, but you know what, I think you should skip that part and just move to part 2. Why? Well, I'm smarter than you."

You know Todd - I'm washing my hands of this. Do some study on division within Churches - how to handle things if you truly believe they are "sinning" - and the various consequences for pride and haughtiness - again, believing your calling is superior to that of the church.

Good luck - maybe the folks at Westboro will come and bring some shocking signs as well - drive the little kids away - drive them away.

I am not saying hey need to stop doing what they are doing, i am just saying they need to be doing something about abortion also. Its not one or the other its booth.

I think being more strategic in their placement would definitely increase clients.

Chris- Yeah, if nothing else, hopefully it plants a seed for the future. Someone who doesn't need the info is aware that help is available should any of her friends/family need assistance in the future. And she knows where to go (no pun intended) to get brochures to give her friend. If you try it, please don't be tempted to take the easy way and put up posters instead of figuring out how to attach little cards or brochures. Posters tend to disappear. Someone who wants something to take with her will take whatever she can get :)

Something else to think about is inserting pregnancy assistance and post-abortion counseling info in the bulletin. We do it sometimes, but not every week like our neighboring parish does.

I'll be interested to hear what you decide to do and how quickly your materials need to be restocked.

What questions have I dodged?
Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 20, 2010 7:36 PM

How about my 2:36PM question?

Todd - and I believe your new church needs to do more to stop starvation in Africa. In fact, I think I'm going to get some huge signs made up of starving kids in Africa - near death with flies and disease on them - and I'm going to walk around the outside of your new church. Oh, I'm sure you are doing many other great things for the Lord, but this is my hot button issue this week, and I think you and your new church are lacking.

Then I think I'm going to protest your new churches lack of abortion work - because you are doing a lot, but 'I' think you should do more. So I'm going to bring my own signs.

See the pride? See the slippery slope? See where I'm putting my belief about your calling above your work that you believe you are doing for the Lord?

Todd - I think there's more to the story than you are telling us, based on the letter from the above. I think you've got some bone to pick - and you're enjoying that there's some folks on this board that think you're doing a great job. Anyone who drives kids away from church and causes church division are certainly doing something wrong - and you should know it.

Ex,

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept.

You are like talking to a wall.

Ex-GOP,
You seem to be very dedicated to your church. What faith do you practice?

Then I think I'm going to protest your new churches lack of abortion work - because you are doing a lot, but 'I' think you should do more. So I'm going to bring my own signs.
Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at Feb 20, 2010 8:28 PM

Ex,
I could be mistaken but I am pretty sure that Todd would join you and welcome you if you did. He might even help you hold your signs.

Todd, I see by some of the comments that the christian church is indeed in dire straits!

The "cafeteria Christians" only want to do what they see as important, and they do not want to take the whole package (Gospel)

We are in a sad state indeed!

truthseeker -

I'm an Evangelical Christian - I go to a non-denominational church. I'm dedicated to churches in general. My dad is a minister, my mother-in-law, my Godfather - and many friends and family friends.

They have had decisive people in their churches before, and I don't think people know how truly awful it is when you have prideful folks who think they know better than everyone else, and undermine the work a church is doing. It is a huge thing and talked about as a pitfall many times in the Bible - but people like being right, people like being about themselves, and quite frankly, we see church and ourselves as consumers. If the church is feeding us food we like, we stay - but if we get a bit offended or the service is bad once, well, we move on and trash the church on the way out.

My first love is Christ - and churches cannot replace Him. But I am one that thinks that the work of Christ is done through churches and the people within them - so trashing a church like Todd is doing really hits a button with me. And the fact that so many people are fine with him trashing a church he doesn't even go to - well, it really has set me back a bit.

I think any cause, even a Christian cause like getting rid of abortion can become idolatry. I don't know - this has just gotten me thinking and riled up. I think the end of my days on this board are coming close - some of them aren't who I thought they are.

ex-GOP...your mother-in-law is a minister? maybe I misunderstood you. But thats what I thought you meant...

If so, how can you shake your finger at Todd about not doing things spiritually. Did ya miss the verses in the Bible that CLEARLY state it is not a woman's place to preach in the church? Boy are you the pot calling the kettle black!

Sydney - she headed a church for about a year after the previous pastor died of a horrible brain tumor.

So there were no men there in the church to take the lead. THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL!!!!! Women are NOT to be the head of the church.

Angel wrote:

Our culture not only needs to end abortion AND contraception, it also needs everyone to do penance and repent. This sin not only belongs to those who have participated in any way in abortion. It is also our sin - each and every one of us.

Amen, a thousand times over!! That's an aspect of the Communion of Saints which doesn't get the "press" that it should have: when we sin, we weaken every last member of the Body of Christ, and when we repent and allow ourselves to be trained in virtue, we build up the Body of Christ in every member (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:26). In fact, when we submit (Catholics say "offer up") our sufferings in union with Christ's sufferings, we fill up in our flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ, for the sake of His Body, the Church--and we can even rejoice in them for that reason, and others (Colossians 1:24). What man has helped to destroy, God graciously grants man the grace to participate in the repair of the damage (cf. Philippians 2:12).

You were named well... :)

P.S. Lifesong: please know that I'm offering up prayers (and penances, this Lent) for your healing, comfort, strengthening and peace! We all put Christ on the cross, dear sister; in fact, my past sins--in weakening the Body of Christ--helped to make the culture of death which took your child *possible*. In a not-indirect-enough-for-my-comfort sense, the blood of every aborted child is on my hands, too. But we trust in a God Who would rather die than see us lost. We're on our way home, God willing.

Revelation 3:14-22

The lukewarm church. God says He will spew the lukewarm churches out of His mouth! He also cautions, those that have ears, let them hear. Be zealous and REPENT.

I say Todd is doing these churches a favor. may they WAKE UP and finally GET IT. He is not forcibly taking over the podiums or lecterns or altars and screaming at the congregations. He is standing outside in a silent witness to the lukewarm Christians who think if they go to church every week they are pleasing God.

And the ones who ARE striving to serve others...the ones who AREN'T lukewarm, the ones who ARE speaking out in defense of life...well, they're not the ones getting all riled up I'm sure. Its the ones whose consciences are pricked who make the loudest grumbling.

Lifesong- I'd like to ask you something if it's not too painful for you. If it is, please forgive me.

What is the single most important thing a sidewalk counselor could have said or done for you as you walked in for your appointment that would have convinced you or assisted you to keep your baby? How would you have wanted to be approached?

God bless :)

" Oh, I'm sure you are doing many other great things for the Lord, but this is my hot button issue this week..."

And here you reveal your GROSS misunderstanding not only about this particular issue, but everything we stand for. As if the DEATHS of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE can be passed off as a "flavor of the week". Willingly starving children to death is illegal, and the UN along with many other institutions is doing the best they can in Africa. THIS IS LEGAL KILLING BY MOTHER OF CHILD, and it ISN'T going away until EVERYONE says or does SOMETHING. Churches, sects, atheists, Buddhists, EVERYONE. And if a certain bit of people aren't doing their part to step up and stop this horror, then someone better be there to MAKE THEM.

"Idolatry". Ha. I guess Schindler was an idolater. If it saved even one life, I wouldn't mind being labeled an idolater or anything else for that matter.

"the church, the Church, THE CHURCH, THE CHURCH!!!"

If anyone sounds like an idolater, it's you, placing a building with people inside who will come and go over the lives of these thousands of babies who are being killed every day. The church is sooo important, and having those pew seats filled makes daddy his money, right RINO? Sounds to me like your fixation on church has more to do with money and power than any actual "calling".

WOW. Xalisae...you even come right out and say you're an atheist...and yet. I couldn't have just said that any better! AMEN X!!!!!

x -

"And if a certain bit of people aren't doing their part to step up and stop this horror, then someone better be there to MAKE THEM."

Hey - are you Scott Roeder? You get internet access?

Ex,

I fully appreciate your respect for those in ministry. You've seen first hand the sacrifices they make and how they are the focus of many attacks. If the enemy can afflict them or take them out, it effects the whole flock.

I also fully appreciate your understanding of church discipline and the protocol for addressing grievances with church leadership.

But for some reason, you stubbornly fail to recognize, or even entertain the thought, that:

1. Abortion is probably the most powerful weapon of mass destruction, inflicting the most death and the most damage to mankind, in satan's arsenal. In 2005, more African American babies were killed in the womb than all other Black deaths caused by the top three, heart disease, cancer and stroke, plus the next 12 leading causes of death combined, almost by a factor of two.
2. Because it is one of satan's primary weapons, it is one of God's highest priorities in terms of what He wants His Church to strategically engage in conflict today.
3. For whatever reason, the vast majority of the pastors in America are grossly negligent with regard this vitally important ministry priority.
4. If you lived next to Auswitch in Nazi Germany, and you ran a soup kitchen, and someone came to you with a plan to rescue Jews, to deliver them from death and smuggle them to life and freedom, you wouldn't tell them, "No, I run a soup kitchen, I'm not called to save Jews." This would be dereliction of Christian duty. It would be sin Ja 4.17. Yet this is how you and the pastors in the video sound.
5. And when His Church needs correction, throughout history God has used prophets, revivalists, reformers and street preachers, to call His Church and the leaders of His Church to repentance.

I pray God opens your eyes brother.

Ed -

I don't understand the disconnect here. I think it is a massive issue.

And this church is doing wonderful things by bringing people who aren't Christians into a relationship with Christ. It's the first part of the great commission - and if we don't bring new Christians into the flock, it's tough to make a strong case on issues like abortion.

My issue is that Todd says this church isn't doing enough - maybe they are, maybe they aren't - he's being the judge and jury and playing the role of God in it. Maybe I don't think your church is doing enough on abortion - you support me picketing your church?

That's the issue.

x -

"And if a certain bit of people aren't doing their part to step up and stop this horror, then someone better be there to MAKE THEM."

Hey - are you Scott Roeder? You get internet access?

Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 20, 2010 10:32 PM
*******************

Wow Ex,

I cannot believe how hard-hearted you are to the plight of the unborn!

And you totally underestimate the power and resolve of us Pro-lifers to MAKE these abortionists stop, without physical violence.

Ex,

Didn't you hear the pastors? They don't address abortion from the pulpit and they don't intend to.

Didn't you read where Todd said he has met several young girls in front of clinics, on their way to get abortions, attendees of this very church for many years that said they never heard a word about abortion?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or demeaning but you don't seem to comprehend what is written very well.

And yes, bring your picket signs over to our church. We can do a few laps, pile into the van and head over to the abortion clinic 3 miles away.

Love to have you.

I truly, sincerely would.

If they WERE doing enough, you'd look pretty foolish then, right?

And, talk about disconnect, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, buddy. First you say, "...but this is my hot button issue this week..." and when we recoil you do a little damage control with "I think it is a massive issue." But not massive enough, right, RINO? Please tell me, what would be massive enough for you to do something like this? If an actual situation doesn't exist, feel free to make one up.

And this church is doing wonderful things by bringing people who aren't Christians into a relationship with Christ. It's the first part of the great commission - and if we don't bring new Christians into the flock, it's tough to make a strong case on issues like abortion.

Ex,

This is the 3rd or 4th time we've made this point to you: It's not either/or. It's not make disciples or preach the Truth against abortion. These are not mutually exclusive activities.

Churches can make disciples, preach the truth against abortion, heal the sick, cast out devils, conduct water baptisms, have missions outreaches, have youth groups, Sunday School, weekly prayer meetings...

All at the same time!

You know, if this church had a Pro-Life heart, they would look out of their window, see the guy with the picket signs and say, "Hey look! There's a guy out front protesting abortion! Let's grab our picket signs out of the closet and get out there and join him!"

The apostle John said, "[Y]ou know that no murderer has eternal life in him." (1 John 3:15b)

The apostle John was speaking of unrepentant murderers; the context is about the one who practices sin, i.e. continues in sin. As an abortionist, Mr. Tiller would seem to have been one such person. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod excommunicated Mr. Tiller in the Biblical and truly evangelical effort to convict him of his sin. After his death, the so-called Evangelical Lutheran Church in America blasphemously spoke of trusting "God's promise that neither death nor life nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Mr. Tiller was an ELCA member in good standing.

The apostle John further said, "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers." (1 John 3:16)

Mr. Roeder was certainly wrong to kill Mr. Tiller, but his motives appear to have been noble. We do not solve violence with more violence. In God we trust; we leave vengeance to Him and His appointed agent, the civil government. Mr. Roeder certainly knows what love his, but his faith in God (and love for God?) seems to be very weak.

The apostle John next said, "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?" (1 John 3:17)

We are all murderers and need to repent daily. We are thus unfit to be judges, I think, though the apostle Paul did say that the saints will judge angels. God and His Christ will be the judges who determine our eternal destinies.

A half-brother of the Christ (speaking in physical terms) wrote: "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20, cf. his definition of true religion in 1:27)

Oops! I was speaking in physical terms; James wasn't.

Also, RINO, every person who ever wanted to get a particular law passed in order to MAKE anyone do anything was not a murderous terrorist. Thanks for the ridiculous comparison though. I'm sure Ralph Nader's going to come unhinged any day now and go on a shooting rampage in the name of product safety. You're hilarious, pal.

Any Catholics interested in an effort to convince the Catholic Church to excommunicate all criminal abortionist politicians around the world who are masquerading as Catholics?

Any Protestants, Orthodox or Mormons who would like to urge their churches to join with the Catholic Church to condemn all politicians who support the killing of our children and to launch a worldwide effort to convince all governments everywhere to stop the killing once and for all?

Good morning Joe,

You're up early:)

What you've proposed is precisely what needs to happen. And it is the opposite of what happened last election.

At the One Thing Conference down in Kansas City this year, Lou Engle preached (select Thursday Evening 2 of 2 Dec. 31, 2009 to hear Lou; also, there is a great prophetic word about 2010 given by Mark Anderson, Youth with a Mission, later in the clip at about the :23 min. mark) about how that in a monarchy, kings rule by governmental decree. In a republic like America, because we have elected representatives and judges in all three branches of government, the citizens are responsible to perform their civic duty. Their vote is their governmental decree electing those who will govern in their place.

Therefore, when people elect a politician who is part of the pro-death mob, because they believe he will improve the economy, they share the burden of guilt for the lives that will be killed as a result of his genocidal rule.

Lou Engle struggled with the implications of preaching such a stern warning, asked God to confirm it with a dream, and He did.

It appears Joe that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the next election will see a lot of Pro-Life candidates elected. Not necessarily because our nation wants a Pro-Life government, but because we'll have a majority wanting a fiscally conservative government, which will also be Pro-Life.

I also believe revival will be breaking forth in greater and greater measure, and that ultimately, we will have a Pro-Life majority that acts and votes like a Pro-Life majority, and that the killing of innocent babies will once again be criminalized.

You are right, Ed. We need a critical mass of churches to really end this violence.

What Todd is doing is good up to a point, but it is only one county. It is not enough to have all the churches in Ventura County or even all the churches in California. We need all the churches in America and then every other country in the world.

It will take a total effort, led by the Catholic Church, with the Protestant, Orthodox and Mormon churches following and joined by Orthodox Jews and Muslims and then other religions and then nonreligious people. All would join together and say "enough is enough, we have killed enough of our children, the killing has got to stop".

Ok, pretty strange. I just double checked the functionality of the above link and the label changed on me. If you want to hear the relevant part of Lou's message, go here and then select the "Thursday Evening 2 of 2" clip. It will show the date as Dec 31, 2009 or Jan 1 2010, probably because the party lasted past midnight.

By the way, I still strongly recommend everyone go and visit this website:

www.ehd.org and click on "Watch The Movies".

It has some great videos of unborn kids (very young ones - 7 and 8 weeks) bouncing around in the womb.

I'm right with you brother.

I've got a strategic plan for eastern Wayne County and southern Macomb county in Michigan I hope to be implementing in the next 30 days or so. If everything goes according to plan, I'll have web sites up and running around Easter or shortly thereafter.

I hope I can get it done as I have a lot of work to do with my business right now as well.

I'll let you know how things develop.

Posted by: Jon at February 21, 2010 1:29 AM

1. Mr. Tiller was an ELCA member in good standing.

2. Mr. Roeder was certainly wrong to kill Mr. Tiller, but his motives appear to have been noble. We do not solve violence with more violence. In God we trust; we leave vengeance to Him and His appointed agent, the civil
government.

-------------------------------------------------------

1. Tiller had already been dis-fellowshipped, ex-communicated and given the right foot of fellowshp out the door of another congregation which belonged to the Missouri Synod of Luthern churches, because of Tiller's continuing and unrepentant acts of violence.

Though Tiller may have been a member of the body of Christ, he was not in 'good standing'. The believers in the community where Tiller fellowshipped had 'marked him' as one from whom believers should 'stand aloof'.

[It is in the 'book'. Rom 16:17-18, Phlp 3:18-19]

In america you can go denonmination shopping and find a group of like minded people who will accept you. The members of the congregation who welcomed Tiller into their fellowship, knowing that he had been dis-fellowshipped and had not repented, share in the curse associated with his blood quilt. That may be one reason Tiller died in their midst. Choices have consequences.

2. My father was drafted into the U.S. Army during WWII. He 'chose' to be inducted as a 'conscientious objector' and served as a medic.
My father did not carry a weapon, but ministered to the wounded and the dying. His 'conscience' would not allow him to do violence to another human being so he removed himself from the equation by degrees and enabled those who had no such compunction to do his killing for him without compromising his conscience.

I honor my father for his consistency and his courage. He was at the invasion of Normand and went in with the second wave tropps at Omaha Beach. He discharged his duty and distinguished himself by demonstrating he was willing to lay down his life for his freinds as well as strangers.

But the fact remains, he allowed and enabled others to do his killing for him.

The violence that those other men did defeated Hitler, the Nazi's and Germany and as well as the rest of the members of the Axis.

You seem to have a problem considering that when both the civil and the sectarian government failed to fulfill their obligation to do justice, that maybe Roeder was God's chosen instrument to meet out HIS justice.

The bottom line for me is this:

After carving 60,000 notches in his scalpel Tiller was no longer able to do other peoples killing for them because there was someone like a Scott Roeder who was willing to do what I would not.

I am not a conscientous objector.

I am a coward.

What is your excuse?

yor bro ken

Ken,

1. In the ELCA, Mr. Tiller was a member in good standing. Your point here is also my point. The ELCA would seem to be a false church.

2. You said that "when both the civil and the sectarian government failed to fulfill their obligation to do justice... maybe Roeder was God's chosen instrument to meet out HIS justice."

Certainly, Ken. The wrath of man will praise God. His sovereignty does not negate our responsibility. We can and do admire Mr. Roeder for his courage, love, and conviction; but we deplore his lack of trust in God. Mr. Roeder was still completely wrong to take the law into his own hands. "Vengeance is Mine. I will repay," says the Lord. After making this quote, the apostle Paul then launched into Romans 13, the chapter requiring our submission to the civil government.

Here is another related story about church picketing. The people in this story went through all the "proper" channels first. What happened afterwards is shocking...
http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/738.htm

I really believe God is call men and women to take a stand in our Churches. When talking to your pastors watch his face and see his heart on the matter. Most likely you will see a hard heart as I have seen with so many pastors. There is no better reason to get kick out of a church than doing Gods will. I have always taught my kids that if they are going to get in trouble make sure it is for doing something that is good.

God will bless and this couple. I thank God for you guys.

Fed Up, you asked
'What is the single most important thing a sidewalk counselor could have said or done for you as you walked in for your appointment that would have convinced you or assisted you to keep your baby? How would you have wanted to be approached?'

I thank God for your question. What a blessing to hear your compassionate concern for my soul & for the injustice of my sin against my helpless daughter or son. Hebrews 4:12 says "... the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". The Lord is the only One who truly understood the thoughts & intentions of my unregenerate heart. We see from Psalm 139 that God designed, created, sustains & rules over me from my very beginning. He discerns my going out and my lying down & He is familiar with all my ways. He knows me, & all whom He has created, in an intimate, perfect way. We may *think* that we know ourselves & others, but truly, since our heart is full of deceit & desperately wicked, the influence of our sin nature warps everything we think & believe & do. I believe that the Word of God, especially His holy Law, are the weapons of warfare to pierce the soul of lost aborting women like me. I wish that someone had cared enough about me to say: "Good morning, my name is _____. I am a Christian. The Lord sent me here to speak with you. What is the biggest reason why you feel like you just do not want to raise this child? Won't you come over so that we can talk? Here you go, I've got some wonderful information for you. Please come & speak with me." (At this point I will say that I do not know whether I would have heeded the call to speak with a herald of Jesus Christ. But, oh, how I wish that I would have had the opportunity to speak with a loving, caring, authentic & biblical believer!) I would have liked the Christian to continue to speak with me, whether I drew near or not, saying; "Did you know that God says: 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you'?" (Jer 1:5) It's true, honey. You are not a mistake, for even before your father's sperm penetrated your mother's egg God KNEW you. Isn't that amazing? The Bible says that you are made in the image & likeness of almighty God. You were given to your parents as a gift from God. The Bible calls children a 'gift', an 'inheritance', a 'reward' & a 'blessing'. The timing of your conception was perfect for it was God Himself who created you. Did you know that the Bible tells us that our souls belong to God? "Behold, all souls are Mine." (Ez 18:4) And, so it is with your baby, dear. It's true! The Lord gave you the child in your womb as His gift. God has also given you a conscience, which tells you right from wrong. The Bible tells us that God has written His Law, His holy commandments, upon your heart. One of God's commandments is 'You shall not murder'. God has sent us here to help you obey Him. Please come over & speak with us. By the grace of God, He will help us love you & your baby. Honey, did you know that you can personally choose a loving mommy & daddy for your baby through adoption? We have a special adoption brochure with a hotline so that you can call an adoption counselor right now. Please, come over & speak with us. "

I have more to say, but this would have been a godly start. I *knew* that it was wrong to murder my baby. I *knew* that my little one hadn't done anything wrong. I knew that I had sex on purpose & my poor child was not responsible & should not be punished for what I did. My conscience was nagging me, but that 'Christian' counselor didn't use the tool that God provided for lost girls like me. She didn't tell me that the reason I felt guilty for even *thinking* about murdering my baby was that God had written His commandments on my heart. This professing Christian suppressed the truth that God has given to all human beings & tried to be a 'good-listener'. Who cares what SHE thinks about me? I needed to know what GOD said & what GOD thinks about me! Jesus is the One who saves wretched women like me! I needed to be pointed to HIM, not to an 'active-listener' who made me 'feel' like she 'cared' about me.

Ironically, I kept telling myself to take my feet out of those stirrups & JUMP up & say "Stop! I don't want to hurt my baby. This isn't right." But, I was intimidated by the 'doctor' & the other clinic worker who I mistakenly thought was a 'nurse'. I allowed them to dismember my poor baby while she was alive. I *knew* that what I had just done was cruel, heartless & absolutely 100% wrong. I vowed in my soul that I would *never* kill another one of my babies. Even without a faithful Christian witness warning me that God says "You shall not murder" my God-given conscience accused & convicted me of my sin. That is why I always wonder why Christians are so afraid & so hesitant to use the scriptures, especially the Law of God. Don't they know that Romans 2:14 explains that even the heathen, "show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it"? No one approached me with the gospel of life & eternity until 3 years later, after the birth of my dear son, whom I would never have murdered after the conviction of my healthy conscience. I BEG all those who profess to be Christians, do NOT give any woman 'non-judgmental options counseling' or 'post-abortion support'. Only the gospel can address the condition of a lost abortion-bound or post-abortive mother's deepest need. Preach the Word! In season & out of season. Don't hesitate to use the moral law to bring conviction of sin. God is ALREADY using His internal Law in the souls of the unregenerate ! Affirm, confirm, substantiate this knowledge of the evil of the shedding of innocent blood by abortion. Religiously suppressing the truth in unrighteousness by purposely avoiding using the Law of God under the guise of 'caring for women' is Hell's Best Kept Secret! Go to: http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm & listen to a powerful biblical teaching on how to share the gospel the way the Master did.

What is wrong with these churches? We have the Catholic Church involved in a scandal giving money to abortionist organizations. We have George Tiller a member of a Lutheran church. We have this mess down in Charlotte. We have Todd's problems out in California.

I mean, what's the deal?

Jon, your post is really filled with so much divine truth. I thank God that you shared so many scriptures to help us see ourselves in the light of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. I hope you don't mind that I use excerpts of your quotes & share them with others. I will give you credit but I only have your first name. I hope you don't mind.

Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at February 20, 2010 9:12 PM

"I'm an Evangelical Christian - I go to a non-denominational church.

I'm dedicated to churches in general.

My dad is a minister, my mother-in-law, my Godfather - and many friends and family friends.

..."we see church and ourselves as consumers. If the church is feeding us food we like, we stay - but if we get a bit offended or the service is bad once, well, we move on and trash the church on the way out.

My first love is Christ - and churches cannot replace Him.

But I am one that thinks that the work of Christ is done through churches and the people within them -"...

-----------------------------------------------------------
RINO,

Your ignorance is stunning.

There is only one Lord, one Spirit and one body of Christ.

"Has Christ been divided?"

You seem to believe that we christians are tasked with both the responibility and power and accompanying authority to convince, persuade, reason, coerce, compel, manipulate, etc. people into becoming 'christians'.

The body of Christ is not a social club where you apply for membership when you so desire.

If your are a member it is because God chose you and Holy Spirit baptized you into HIS body.

[It's in the 'book'.]

GOD gives us the free will to accept or reject Jesus. God sets the time and the place of HIS choosing, not ours. We cannot demand or request Jesus when it is convienent for us.

Not on the basis of our worthiness or our need, but simply because GOD made a unitlateral decision to include us in HIS family.

[Deut 7:7-10, John 15:16, 1 Cor 1:26-31]

This is no basis for pride on our part, only a grateful heart.

Eph 2:8-9 8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved ( delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] AMP

I know how to grow a 'church'.

The methodology is quite simple. Unless you violate the principles for 'chruch' growth or God just resists you, it is as easy as growing your savings account.

I have been to the 'church' growth seminars and assisted in the implementation of the knowledge imparted, and saw the building become more fully occupied for the scheduled meetings, but the individuals, most of whom were NOT new believers, but transfers, did NOT grow in measureable maturity.

How could they, they were never encouraged to leave the nursery? They kept coming back for the milk toast that is suitable for infants, not for maturing children.

"If the church is feeding us food we like, we stay'...

Given the choice what child would not choose the junk food over the meat and veggies?

Man measures 'church' growth by quantity, GOD measures a son's growth by QUALITY.

'church' is so far removed from God's intention for his sons [I use son's in the same gender neutral sense found in the 'book'] it is not even a counterfeit. It is a aberation, a perversion, a devolution.

If you can get past the 'god in the box' false paradigm and begin to seek the kingdom of God and the body and bride of Christ you might shed some of the trappings of religion that have held you in bondage all your life and experience the liberty and the freedom in the Spirit that Jesus purchased for you with HIS life.

Or you can remain in Egypt, continue the starvation milk toast diet, and keep on gathering your own straw, making mud bricks, to construct a building made with human hands that will eventually collapse under it's own weight and will never withstand the shaking of GOD.

Jer 51:1-9 1 THUS SAYS the Lord: Behold, I will raise up against Babylon and against those who dwell among those rebelling against Me a destroying wind and spirit;

6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon! Let every man save his life! Let not destruction come upon you through her [punishment for] sin and guilt. For it is the time of the Lord's vengeance; He will render to her a recompense. [Jer 50:28; 2 Cor 6:17; Rev 18:4.]

8 Babylon has suddenly fallen and is shattered (destroyed)! Wail for her [if you care to]! Get balm for her [incurable] pain; if [you do] so she may [possibly] be healed! [Jer 25:15; Rev 14:8-10; 16:19; 18:2,3.]

9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed. Forsake her and let us each go to his own country, for her guilt and the judgment against her reach to heaven and are lifted even to the skies. [Gen 18:20,21.] AMP

To me, 'Babylon' represents all religion, even 'christianity when it becomes performance based. Salvation is the free gift of GOD.

[I like to refer to verse 9 as the 'Humpty Dumpty' passage. The devotees of religion will be unconsoable at 'Humptys' fall and will desire and even attempt to rebuild, but they will begin on the same faulty foundation of religion and use the same unsuitable building materials: clay, hay and stubble.]

2 Tim 2:19 But the firm foundation of (laid by) God stands, sure and unshaken, bearing this seal (inscription): The Lord knows those who are His, and, Let everyone who names [himself by] the name of the Lord give up all iniquity and stand aloof from it. [Num 16:5; Isa 26:13.] AMP

Heb 11:8-10 [Urged on] by faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went forth to a place which he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went, although he did not know or trouble his mind about where he was to go.

10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has fixed and firm foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God. AMP

Acts 7:48-49 48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses and temples made with hands; as the prophet says, [Isa 66:1,2.]

49 "Heaven [is] My throne, and earth the footstool for My feet. What [kind of] house can you build for Me, says the Lord, or what is the place in which I can rest?" AMP

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). AMP

Eph 2:19-22 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God's own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God's [own] household.

20 You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone.

21 In Him the whole structure is joined (bound, welded) together harmoniously, and it continues to rise (grow, increase) into a holy temple in the Lord [a sanctuary dedicated, consecrated, and sacred to the presence of the Lord].

22 In Him [and in fellowship with one another] you yourselves also are being built up [into this structure] with the rest, to form a fixed abode (dwelling place) of God in (by, through) the Spirit.
AMP

1 Peter 2:4-6 4 Come to Him [then, to that] Living Stone which men tried and threw away, but which is chosen [and] precious in God's sight. [Ps 118:22; Isa 28:16.]

5[Come] and, like living stones, be yourselves built [into] a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up [those] spiritual sacrifices [that are] acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.

6 For thus it stands in Scripture: Behold, I am laying in Zion a chosen ( honored), precious chief Cornerstone, and he who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] shall never be disappointed or put to shame. [Isa 28:16.] AMP

yor bro ken

Posted by: Jon at February 21, 2010 10:21 AM

"The ELCA would seem to be a false church."

2. You said that "when both the civil and the sectarian government failed to fulfill their obligation to do justice... maybe Roeder was God's chosen instrument to meet out HIS justice."

We can and do admire Mr. Roeder for his courage, love, and conviction; but we deplore his lack of trust in God.

Mr. Roeder was still completely wrong to take the law into his own hands.

"Vengeance is Mine. I will repay," says the Lord. After making this quote, the apostle Paul then launched into Romans 13, the chapter requiring our submission to the civil government.
--------------------------------------------------

My point is that 'church' is false!

The 'submission to civil government' is not absolute.

Both the 'book' and history are replete with examples where men and women of conscience acted contrary to the civil law and God and history has vindicated them.

The location were Tiller was killed does not bother me in the least.

There is poetic irony that the congregation that knowingly extended the right hand of fellowship to a butcher like Tiller should be exposed to the violence he practiced.

Jeremiah Wright would say, "The vultures came home to roost."

There is no evidence that Tiller ever injured Roeder or someone Roeder even knew.

Therefore Roeders killing of Tiller could not accurately be constured as an 'act of revenge' or even vengence on Roeders part.

I could make an argument that Roeders act was GOD's vengence, but it would only be based on circumstancial evidence and historical examples.

The truth is we are uncomfortable with actual violence, even when perpetrated against a monster like Tiller. The image repulses us. That is a good thing. It indicates our humanity is still intact and our conscience is in good working order.

Having said that I was immediately, and continue to be, relieved, even grateful, that a man like Tiller has departed this earth.

I hope Tillers time in 'church' was well spent and he availed himself of forgiveness and salvation in Jesus if and when GOD presented him with the opportunity.

I will leave it to God to make the call concerning the rightness and the wrongness of Roeders action.

I have no doubt about the wrongness of George Tillers actions.

I do not know how GOD can know what HE knows and not reduce us all to pillars of salt and piles of dust and ashes.

Prov 24:11-12 11 Deliver those who are drawn away to death, and those who totter to the slaughter, hold them back [from their doom].

12 If you [profess ignorance and] say, Behold, we did not know this, does not He Who weighs and ponders the heart perceive and consider it? And He Who guards your life, does not He know it? And shall not He render to [you and] every man according to his works? AMP

Meditate on that passage a while and see how much wiggle room it leaves us.

yor bro ken

hoping you were not thrown out of twitter

Todd I must say that you impress me as having more charity and more clarity (scriptural) than the pastors who are generously offering you a return to fellowship if you will just keep silen. I just wrote a tract on this very issue and in it I quote Isa, 30:9-13

“9For these people are stubborn rebels who refuse to pay any attention to the LORD’S instructions. 10They tell the prophets, “Shut up! We don’t want any more of your reports.” They say, “Don’t tell us the truth. Tell us nice things. Tell us lies. 11Forget all this gloom. We have heard more than enough about your ‘Holy One of Israel.’ We are tired of listening to what he has to say.” 12This is the reply of the Holy One of Israel: “Because you despise what I tell you and trust instead in oppression and lies, 13calamity will come upon you suddenly. It will be like a bulging wall that bursts and falls. In an instant it will collapse and come crashing down.”

God's rich blessings to you and yours.
Bud Reeves

Lifesong, THANK YOU for giving me a thorough answer to my question. May you be at peace :)

No other issue brings on such reaction as does abortion. Here in Canada, we have a woman who has spent more than 8 years out of the past 15 in jail because she enters a bubble zone outside an abortion clinic to speak to girls entering for abortions. She is peaceful, gives them literature, has saved several babies this way, but each time she is arrested. She is charged with "disrupting the peace" or "obstructing a police officer", never is she charged with breaking the injunction that placed the bubble zone there. The injunction is temporary, by the way, but it has been in place since 1994.

Pro-lifers are going to be persecuted and violated more than any other conscientious objector because the subject of abortion engages the discussion of sexual morality. No one wants anyone interfering with their private sexual lives, including pastors. For some reason, even Christians think that their sexual lives should be exempt from scrutiny.

I think our culture is going to rise or fall on this issue of the "right to life". It really is the litmus test of how God-fearing our society is, and it seems that we are failing miserably. Most people,even Christians, don't want to see legal abortion abolished because either 1) they had one themselves 2) they helped someone else procure an abortion 3) they would help a family member or friend get one if circumstances were really difficult and 4) they want that escape hatch there if ever they need it themselves.

Perhaps Todd should be prepared for a jail sentence, and should speak now to a lawyer from the Thomas More society and get his defence in place. Because he may need it sooner rather than later.

The woman in jail in Canada is Linda Gibbons, she is a post-abortive woman who began her pro-life witness 16 years ago. For all the fear- mongering spouted by pro-aborts about making abortion illegal once again, in our country there is only one person in jail for this issue and she is there because she is pro-life.

EGV wrote, in reply to my comment:

Not that my respect means anything to you, but you've lost a lot with this one.

Well... I honestly don't mean this to sound insulting, but you're right: your respect for me (or lack of it) means nothing to me. It's not against you, in particular, that I say this. Perhaps it would help if you could read one of the slogans by which I live my life (this comes from a traditional Catholic prayer, asking the Holy Spirit for the Gift of Fortitude):

By the gift of Fortitude, the soul is strengthened against natural fear, and supported to the end in the performance of duty. Fortitude imparts to the will an impulse and energy which move it to undertake without hesitancy the most arduous tasks, to face dangers, to trample under foot human respect, and to endure without complaint the slow martyrdom of even lifelong tribulation. "He that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved."

My ambition is to care what God thinks of me and my actions--not what you, or any other people, think of me and them. Human respect is fickle, and anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the Gospel knows how quickly that selfsame human respect can go from "Hosanna!" to "Crucify Him!" God Himself had that human respect degenerate thusly in only 5 days; I don't expect to do any better. It's rather beside the point, anyway.

That you would support Christians picketing and protesting churches they don't go to because they think that their personal calling is more important than what the churches calling is...it blows my mind.

(*sigh, again*) You really are a full-blown relativist, aren't you? Surely you know that there are objective standards by which such "callings" can be judged? That it isn't simply "one person's personal vocational 'feelings'" against another? Jim Jones felt "called" to lead his followers in a mass-suicide; would your fastidious reticence toward "imposing your views on others" prevent you from condemning that? If "yes", then I have nothing further to say to you on that particular matter; if the answer is "no", then perhaps we might salvage this discussion, yet.

Sir - if your zeal to end abortion is greater than your love for Christ and the world the Lord is doing, that is idolatrous behavior, plain and simple.

"If" that were the case, then of course, you'd be right. But you seem to be one of the only ones who think that "zeal to end abortion" and "love for Christ and the world" (I'm not sure what you meant by "the Lord is doing"--was that a typo or sentence fragment?) are somehow incompatible. Could you please explain why you think "zeal to end abortion" is not compatible with a love for Christ, His Church, and His Plan? Aren't unborn children included in Christ's "love of the world"?

What questions have I dodged? I've gotten about 80 through - if there's some you are just dying to know, let me know.

The questions in my post immediately preceding your own "simple question" would do, for starters (February 20, 2010 1:26 PM)...

This post isn't about me though. This is a post about something who believes that some people who are following their calling are being told false lies from the Lord

Half a moment. If they're being told false lies (I'll be nice, and pass over the redundancy), then the Lord certainly wasn't the One Who told those lies to them. I (for one) am claiming that the two pastors are muddled about some *very* serious/important things--matters of life and death (both physical and eternal). It's rather silly for you to suggest that "the lies couldn't be lies, since they came from the Lord!", when they didn't come "from the Lord" at all!

The church hit it on the head - it's divisive behavior and anti-Christian.

Divisive (in the sense of setting one group against another), certainly; no one could argue with that. But you're spouting your raw, unsubstantiated (and anti-Biblical--to say nothing of anti-logical) o-p-i-n-i-o-n when you say that it's "anti-Christian". Seriously: what sort of privatized definition of "divisive" are you using, that you don't think Christ's very Gospel wasn't "divisive"? Unless you're trying to denounce Christ as un-Christian...?

To illustrate the point: does your Bible not have Jesus' words about "not coming to bring peace, but the sword", "setting mother against daughter", "parents will hand over children to death", etc.?

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind,

Right... but that's adequately explained by the fact that you're using raw opinion and/or emotion to settle your mind on the matter.

and my guess is if you talked to any preacher out there, you'd get a similar response.

Is there any chance you could try your argument again, without a fallacious appeal to consensus?

Good news I have met twice now with my new pastor and they are now going to support CPC and he told me he now has a sermon planned dedicated to the abortion issue. He also said he would like to talk to me a bit more about it. He also thanked me and said that I was a lighting rod that woke up the church. I will let you all know how it goes. God is good.

Todd

Great news, Todd!
Please do give Jill your updates. You are in my prayers.

Posted by: Todd Bullis at February 21, 2010 5:51 PM
-------

Todd - besides prayer, let us know if you need help with stats, resources and other information or references to help you and your new pastor.

As I mentioned earlier, Greg Koukl (and the other guys) at Stand to Reason (located in Signal Hill) have a solid grasp on tackling this issue in a winsome manner.

Also, if possible, I highly recommend Scott Klusendorf of Life Training Institute.

Here's a solid 6 minutes of Scott laying out solid responses to pro-choice arguments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_s6RG2vSvE

And if God opens a door - "Making Abortion Unthinkable" is a training program from STR.org written by both Greg and Scott. Highly recommended.

Good info thanks.

I start next week calling the churches here in Ventura Ca, asking for meetings to talk about the Abortion issue. I have a feeling they will take my calls this time if not at least I tried. I hope (God willing) to be able to start sharing Gods heart about abortion with each Church here in my city. I just bought 600.00 worth of signs and the guys at The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform are fronting me the signs till I get the cash to pay for them. These guys have been such a great help. http://www.abortionno.org/matt.html

God is good.

Todd

Todd:

Excellent news! God bless & keep you in your mission! (And yes, CBR is awesome! :) )

Xalisae:

Any chance you'll ever get a blog? I don't think you'd lack in readers (including me)! :)

By following the above link, I was able to make a small donation which I asked to be used to help pay for Todd's signage. There is a comments section you can use at the end of the donation form to make this request.(I hope it doesn't screw up their accounting.)

Todd I'm hoping to get a similar campaign kicked off up here in Michigan in the next 30-60 days. I'm targeting 3 killing centers on the east side of Detroit that murder approximately 4,000 children, mostly African American, every year.

Chris, for those churches I approach and have indiividuals whose hearts are stirred to action, I'm going to want to be able to provide them with Pro-Life Action Kits that they can use to fully equip themselves for battle. I'll probably shoot you an email this week detailing the type of information I'd like to include and would appreciate any recommendations you could offer.

Todd,
Awesome!!
Seek out some post abortive women and men to speak at your church to call out to those that are in need of abortion recovery.

Praying for you!!!

Lifesong, I certainly don't mind. In fact, I feel flattered. Thanks! Go ahead.

Great suggestion Carla, a comprehesive approach, excellent.

As today is the Lord's day, here's another relevant excerpt from the December sermon by Rev. Bouwers that I quoted in an earlier comment.

Knowing the value of life, then, living as we do in a culture of death, we ought to ask ourselves as Christians, "What are some of the ways in which we can be involved in the protection of life?" We have opportunity and, I believe, responsibility in our day and age to be pro-life, if you will--politically and activistically, if you will. We shouldn't be afraid of that! Taking an active interest in concern for life: concern for the life of the unborn, for the life of the marginalized, the abused, the down-trodden. Being protectors of life as Christians means we ought to look for ways to be salt and light in the midst of a putrefying culture, speaking out on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves, making such concerns known. Another way sometimes we may be involved as Christians, and I know of a number who do such things, is by something as simple as donating blood for the protection and preservation of life. I believe more of us ought to consider how the Lord would be leading us into fields that are sometimes backed off from by Christians: callings in medicine as doctors and nurses, in emergency care, as ambulance attendants. In various ways caring for the sick, the elderly, and the dying. There are particular challenges that come in the light of these fields, particular challenges that make it difficult for Christians sometimes. All the more reason we need to seek the Lord's guidance and strength to be faithful also in these areas. We need Christian police officers. We need men to serve in the army. They are all ways in which we may have a particular role to play in the protection of life. Indeed there are many challenges in any of these lines that we have spoken about, so much so that people say we need to stay away from that as Christians. I don't believe that's what the Lord calls us to do. We need to be mindful of one another, mindful of the challenges that are faced, praying for one another and upholding one another. But we should be out there. These are just some of the ways in which we can and should be involved in the protection of life.

But in all of these ways and more, if we may be involved in the protection of life, we must also remember: none of these things in and of themselves can be for the promotion of life or they cannot produce life. We do not have life in ourselves; we only have that in Christ. The one who says, "I have come to give you life, life to the full." That is the only life ultimately, the life that we have in Christ.

Posted by: Ed at February 21, 2010 8:02 PM
------

Ed - by all means - when you're ready.

Paladin -

You have 13 questions in the post you are referring to, so my answers won't be coming right away - work week is starting up. I wonder though - does it matter? I make the point that this church feels that it has a calling and is making decisions based on that calling. I say that an individual does not like that calling, and is trying to put their own prideful feelings above the calling of that church. You respond that Jim Jones felt he had a calling as well.

If you feel that this church is a Jim Jones type situation - well, again, let's end this now. I think you're being quite silly trying to justify the undermining of spiritual calling. Yes, you have a point - Jim Jones probably felt called. Go to that churches website and let me know if you do not think they are from God and doing His mission. Then answer my question seriously.

And I don't feel bad for calling for other wisdom in this matter. I'm wondering if Todd's new minister will be out there protesting with him? How about everyone else - anyone talk to their pastor's about it or do a little Bible study in regards to proper steps for these sort of issues between Christians? Bringing up "sin" or "lawsuits" - I think both are relevant here in regards to how Christians are supposed to conduct themselves.

RINO,

The only one who can undermine your 'calling' is yourself.

I believe I read somewhere in the 'book' that God validates and vindicates the ones HE calls.

yor bro ken

Eric Schiedler nails it when he says that this church has made an idol out of fellowship. It's "peace at any cost", which usually makes truth the first casualty.

Most people are overworked and overwrought. When they come to church, they don't want activism. They want to be affirmed as fundamentally good people and challenged to look at how they can better deal with what is already on their overly-full plates.

There's simply no more room for causes, however noble. Two terms come to mind:

1. Burnout
2. Compassion Fatigue

It's understandable.

Where most clergy have utterly failed is in connecting the dots and seeing that abortion is the central front in the war against Christian and Western Civilization. They have utterly failed to identify this evil as the precipitating factor in the coarsening of culture and moral sensibilities.

They have failed to see that this one single issue either opens the Pandora's Box, or slams it shut, depending on how we respond.

And they have failed to protect their own congregants from Margaret Sanger's wolves, who have torn their flocks to shreds.

If there is one single issue that people ought to be exhorted to make room for, to be thoroughly educated in, it is this one single issue of abortion.

When I was a seminarian, an old and wise priest once told me,

"Gerry, if everyone walks out of he church and tells you what a wonderful sermon you gave, you failed."

Eric Schiedler nails it when he says that this church has made an idol out of fellowship. It's "peace at any cost", which usually makes truth the first casualty.

Most people are overworked and overwrought. When they come to church, they don't want activism. They want to be affirmed as fundamentally good people and challenged to look at how they can better deal with what is already on their overly-full plates.

There's simply no more room for causes, however noble. Two terms come to mind:

1. Burnout
2. Compassion Fatigue

It's understandable.

Where most clergy have utterly failed is in connecting the dots and seeing that abortion is the central front in the war against Christian and Western Civilization. They have utterly failed to identify this evil as the precipitating factor in the coarsening of culture and moral sensibilities.

They have failed to see that this one single issue either opens the Pandora's Box, or slams it shut, depending on how we respond.

And they have failed to protect their own congregants from Margaret Sanger's wolves, who have torn their flocks to shreds.

If there is one single issue that people ought to be exhorted to make room for, to be thoroughly educated in, it is this one single issue of abortion.

When I was a seminarian, an old and wise priest once told me,

"Gerry, if everyone walks out of the church and tells you what a wonderful sermon you gave, you failed."

one last piece from the sermon "Life to the Full":

In addition to some of the things that we have looked at, the way in which we may be those who are known for protecting life in the midst of our culture, what are the ways in which we can promote life? What life?--the life that Jesus is talking about in John 10--how can we do that in the world? Well, in that sense we'll have to be sure that we begin with ourselves to ensure that we are beginning with God, that we know and rejoice to know our life is in Christ. This is eternal life: to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. And that means that we are going to be those who live in the joy of that life and of that fellowship, that we cling to the life that God has indeed given to us and live it as God has intended it to be lived, namely, walking in lock-step with Him, in fellowship with Him, in communion with Him, by His Spirit through the resurrection power of Jesus Christ, in the life of the church, in the life of prayerful fellowship, in the life of the living out of the blessing of faith.

How else can we promote life beyond making sure that we are beginning with God and walking in fellowship with Him? Well, we ought to look around in the midst of the covenant congregation and see what God is doing and count our blessings. In this day and age when life is not appreciated--and particularly the life of little children--where families that have more than one are looked down upon, we promote life as we know it in the Lord Jesus Christ by having children by God's grace, according to His blessing, as He leads and blesses. The promotion of life ought to show in our love of family. We ought to be known for that as people who have large families, that we're not embarrassed about that. We're thankful for the opportunity to testify to the goodness of God, the God of life. You know the Lord does not always allow or enable immediately such blessings to be experienced or received by everyone. But certainly as a congregation of God's people, all together, it ought to be our united testimony: we love life! We can see it in our desire to raise children for the fear of His name. And you see, what we're doing is we're holding before the world in all of this--in our love of family, in our love for the children the Lord entrusts to us--we're holding before the world a zest and a zeal for life. We're holding out before the world a confidence that we have in the Lord of life, in His purposes, in His protection, in His care. That, of course, means, moms and dads, that we must raise these little ones the Lord entrusts to us in earnest and in prayerful dependence upon God, pleading upon His promises, that they should know Christ, that they should "get a life" and know the life that has been promised to them in Christ.

But also beyond the confines of our own homes, we promote life in the way that Jesus anticipates and envisions in His words of John chapter 10, when He talks about His sheep. Then He talks about (in verse 16): "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they will hear My voice." We promote life by loving our neighbour enough to do him good, by showing him the ultimate good, holding before him the Lord Jesus Christ, as the life by which alone we live, as the way, the truth, and the life, as the one who laid down His life for His sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and these others will hear My voice too"--but they'll hear His voice through the ministry of the church. And we promote life as we go pleading with the world, as the apostle Paul enjoins us--beseeches us!--to be involved in that way as ministers of reconciliation, to beseech the world: "I plead with you, be reconciled to God in Jesus Christ." We promote life by being so thrilled with the life that we have in Jesus Christ that we cannot but speak. So we're saying, "Get a life!" Find that life, know that life, receive that life!--which you can find in Christ and in Christ alone. We see in this commandment with regard to life, this life commandment that God gives us, the Sixth Commandment--the Lord in giving this commandment, would have us know Jesus and have life to the full.

Todd, if the abortionist, were killing new-borns, up to two months old, would your two friends rush to join you? I think so.

But, pre-born babies are hidden in the darkness of the womb. And, even though, they are made in the image of God, there is less concern for them. Less love.

Todd, I pray you'll join the voices, shouting for "Personhood".

Gerard,

I really like your "stuff".

"You got good stuff bro!" lol

I was just thinking about our common, universal in fact, heartcry for validation / affirmation.

How awesome is it that our Loving Creator gives each one of us this "gift"? Like Adam and Eve, our conscience informs us of our own inadequacies, imperfections and frankly, our own sin (which we all "got"), and we have a tendency to want to hide from God, afraid of His Voice (Ge3).

But He calls out to us, "Adam, where are you?"

He knew where he was.

He knows where we are.

If we will just come to Him, He is such a good God, such a Loving Father, He wants to pick us up from behind whatever tree we've been hiding behind, give us a big bear hug, clean us up, dust us off, restore us to right fellowship with Him, and then help us, lead us and guide us as we "do this planet", and serve our generation.

I love the paradox of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector Lu 18.9-14. When we embrace our imperfection, we receive His mercy and grace, His gift of justification, just-as-if we'd never sinned.

Glory to God!

EGV wrote:

Paladin - You have 13 questions in the post you are referring to, so my answers won't be coming right away - work week is starting up.

No rush... I know the syndrome.

I wonder though - does it matter? I make the point that this church feels that it has a calling and is making decisions based on that calling.

I understand your point, but that's the problem: the mere fact that someone "feels" that they have "a calling" doesn't necessarily make it so. We must use criteria a bit less flimsy and fickle than "feelings"!

I say that an individual does not like that calling, and is trying to put their own prideful feelings above the calling of that church.

And I reply that this is your raw opinion, with not a scrap of proof for it. You assume many things:

a) that the particular worship-community has a genuine "calling" from God which precludes any notable zeal for anti-abortion efforts.

b) that Todd is being "prideful" (and I *really* don't know how you manage to divine *that*!).

c) that Todd's reaction is based on "feelings".

d) that Todd is putting *anything* "above" the "calling" of the church; when another perfectly reasonable possibility might be that Todd is reminding that particular community of an already-existing aspect of their "calling" which they're neglecting!

You respond that Jim Jones felt he had a calling as well.

Yes. Do you understand why I used that analogy? I didn't use it to draw a 1-to-1 relation between the church in question and Jim Jones; I used it as a clear and unambiguous refutation of your suggestion that "if they feel a calling, it must be from God and it's sacrosanct, so stop criticizing them!".

If you feel that this church is a Jim Jones type situation - well, again, let's end this now.

I trust you now understand that this wasn't my point.

I think you're being quite silly trying to justify the undermining of spiritual calling.

As I mentioned: you misunderstood my point completely. Of course, I used a startlingly severe example; but that was to make the point (that "feeling called" doesn't automatically translate into "actually being called"--or even "following a true call correctly") clearly.

Do consider this logically: unless you're convinced that anyone who "feels called by God" must necessarily be right, or (alternately) you're convinced that anyone with a true calling from God must necessarily be guaranteed never to err even slightly in that calling, then none of your arguments make any sense; they all degenerate to raw opinion, which doesn't prove anything of note.

Yes, you have a point - Jim Jones probably felt called.

So... do you think Jim Jones actually *was* called (by God)? If not, then you'll need some standard (other than your raw opinions and feelings/emotions) to make that judgment.

Go to that churches website and let me know if you do not think they are from God and doing His mission. Then answer my question seriously.

I already did. I don't doubt that the church pastors in question felt "called by God" to do what they do. But I, unlike you, think it's possible to GO ASTRAY, even from an originally legitimate calling (if the calling was truly legitimate at all). No one's arguing that they "feel" called to do what they do; but my point was that EVERYONE "feels" called (in some sense) to do what they do. If you want to claim that a call came from Christ, then you'd better be ready to make a logical case for it. Otherwise, you're simply spouting opinions... and I know those, already, thanks.

I'm wondering if Todd's new minister will be out there protesting with him?

See Todd's comments, above; asked and answered.

How about everyone else - anyone talk to their pastor's about it or do a little Bible study in regards to proper steps for these sort of issues between Christians?

Have you? And have your discussions used actual *reason*, rather than tossing about emotional fluff, personal opinions, and the like? Honestly, I do wonder whether you believe in anything objective about Christ and His Church at *all*...

Bringing up "sin" or "lawsuits" - I think both are relevant here in regards to how Christians are supposed to conduct themselves.

Mm-hmm. So, let's upgrade your comment from "insinuation" to "actual statement"; how do you think "sin" and "lawsuits" apply, in this case? Be specific (and objective, if possible).

Thank you, Paladin! I used to have a blog for awhile, but I didn't think it was going to go anywhere, so I kinda just stopped. I've picked it back up today in your honor, so feel free to stop by and tell me what you think.

Sorry I don't have much to offer, Jill, but this is the graphic I have to submit. It's rough, and none too attractive, but lamentably the best I could knock out in the time I had today:

I like it Xalisae.

Thank you, Ed.

I think what Ex GOP is guilty of is that he is more church minded and not very Christ Minded.

When Someone is more church minded than Christ minded than you will see many things happening such as churches will not work well together, churches are program oriented and churches become more like clubs serving their members instead of serving the community. Most churches don't really look at the big picture. Walking by a place that kills a 100 or 200 babies a week is not as important as say a new organ or piano and so on. Social programs that serves its members and might bring more people into the church are more important than evangelism or standing up against great evil like abortion. What I have seen a lot of is churches fighting for the existing christian community and not worrying much about the lost.

Dear Ex GOP I do not want you to think I am just giving you a hard time but you are more concerned about a church building and its members than an abortion building and its victims.

I know you think I am persecuting the church but I am not I love the church and I know it has some responsibility here. Like I said before EX GOP look at this web pages, watch an abortion take some responsibility and Repent for your careless attitude. I pray for you my brother.

http://www.abortionno.org/

I think everyone should thnik about this quote and why Martin Luther King had such a hard time with pastors.

Well, the most pervasive mistake I have made was in believing that because our cause was just, we could be sure that the white ministers of the South, once their Christian consciences were challenged, would rise to our aid.
Martin Luther King Quote

X,

For me, the wispy white gives the child and the graphic kind of an eternal / heavenly / supernatural feel.

If I didn't know better I'd think you might be starting to doubt your doubts and contemplating giving faith another try :)

Attention everybody! Double up on your prayers for X girl! She's getting close :P

You know Todd - you're right. In fact, I'll just send you my financial statements and time commitments and you can tell me how to be a better Christian.

My point was simply that in Biblical disputes, there's multiple places in the Bible that outlines how people are to react and deal with. I'm answering Paladin a bit as well here - but there are sections both in regards to legal disputes, and if you think another Christian is sinning. The steps are very much laid out. When you look at the various letters from Paul to the early churches, it is clear that division among Christians is to be avoided. Again though, when there is division, those steps are to be laid out.

This church you are protesting against is clearly out to reach unsaved folks. There are a lot of different missions for Christians - there are those to work to reach the unsaved. There are those that preach to those who are saved. There are those who take up special interests. Now, I could make the argument that this church you are protesting is doing a HECK of a lot towards abortion. If they grow their numbers in those who love the Lord, the number of people who see abortion as an option will decrease.

Now, a lot of these churches (churches that are more outreach), by nature, don't have massively deep in the Bible, textual type sermons and preaching. Now, before you jump on me - I'm not saying they don't use the Bible. I'm saying that the goal of the sermon isn't to break down a 5 verse passage in Job. The goal is to present the gospel to folks who either don't know Jesus or who are new believers.

What the ministers are saying there, and is quite common in churches like these, is that heavy sermons on a topic like this isn't in their mission. It isn't saying that it isn't important - again, the goal is to get people to know Christ, plug them into studies of the Word and they will certainly know about abortion, feeding the poor, etc... However, without the first component, the second component doesn't happen.

I'm guessing your church falls into the type my father preaches at - the type that gets heavy into the scripture and is more text type teaching. There's less unsaved folks coming for church, and it is a lot more teaching to very grounded Christians. On one hand, I think a sermon on abortion is very applicable there. On another, I'd love to read the text of a good abortion sermon - I suppose I've gone to church many, many years and I've always known abortion is wrong without somebody preaching on it (I've never heard a minister have to preach on not blowing up building or murdering people either because it's sort of Biblical 101 common sense).

You make a grave error in regards to assuming a lot of things here. I go to a church that as a mission, does not build a building but meets in a high school to have more resources for the community. I go to a church that doesn't talk much about abortion because people know it's wrong, and when somebody in the community needs help, they help the young mother so that the choice of life is obvious.

I need no prayer for a "careless" attitude. I simply realize that a lot of different people and churches have different callings. I hope this church in California that you dislike so much brings thousands of new people into their fold. If they do, these people will learn about Christ's love and how things like abortion are not the answer in life.

I simply continue to contend that based on what I know, you have a calling to preach the word against abortion. This church has a calling to preach to the unsaved. For one of you to the tell the other that your calling is misunderstood or unworthy is foolish.

Acts 5:38-39 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. What I mean is that each of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:10-12)

When you have something against another Christian, why do you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter, instead of taking it to other Christians to decide who is right? Don’t you know that someday we Christians are going to judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we Christians will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disagreements here on earth. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why do you go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? I am saying this to shame you. Isn’t there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these arguments? But instead, one Christian sues another—right in front of unbelievers! To have such lawsuits at all is a real defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated? But instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your own Christian brothers and sisters. (1 Cor 6:1-8, NLT)

Matthew 18:15-17 15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

You are so much easier to pray for than BO.

Paladin -

Can't do it - I'm not going to go through 20 more questions and argue when there's no common ground anyways. It's a waste of my time, your time, and the precious internet space our words would reside on.

Maybe I overreacted - my dad once had a guy in his church that had a fit over Y2K preparation. He made a big deal of it at meetings - said the church needed to get more involved, have stuff stock piled to deal with. The church was "wrong" of course for not doing more.

Now I know - it's silly to compare the slaughter of the unborn to Y2k. My only point is that a lot of people come around and tell pastors they should do this and they should do that. The world is full of people with free advice.

My dad makes crap wages but he's been at the side of dying people - people who have lots kids - people who are going through awful situations in life. He's passed up world riches for riches in heaven.

So to see people who think that these pastors are so wrong-headed - pastors that are doing their best to bring people to Christ - well, it angers me a bit. It angers me the way it is done (through protest) and the lack of respect in general.

Yes, you are right, the calling might not be there. Maybe they are consumed by greed. Quite frankly neither you nor I know Todd or the church. Based on the letter, I think there's more there that we don't know.

But based on what we do know, I think it stinks a little bit, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise, and nothing I can say will convince you otherwise. Does Todd have a noble cause? Of course - I hope that somehow, God working through him makes a huge difference in his area. But I still contend that he's going about it all wrong.

Thanks for the conversation and I apologize for getting hot headed earlier.

My mom couldn't make it out very well, but the white part is supposed to be the head and wings of a dove, to symbolize peace. I suck. /sigh

Speaking of converted atheists, there is a girl by the name of Shelley Hundley who was sexually and physically abused repeatedly through her childhood. One of the different abusers was actually a minister.

She was so full of bitterness and anger, she was unreachable, cut herself, and would have committed suicide if not for the intervention of God.

It's a really powerful testimony.

Anyone interested in checking it out can follow this link and click on "Shelley's Testimony" on the right side of the video player.

Your dad sounds like a great guy and God bless him. Any persecution and troubles he faces is for the lord. I don't know one Godly man in the Bible that did not suffer while working for the Lord. Give thanks in all things. I am not mad at you. You make it sound like I just do this at the one church, I don't I have done it at about 15 churches here in Ventura.
I had one church that came out and said, abortion is ok because there are just too many people in the world.
I had one Church come out and the head pastor yelled at me for two minutes and left. Than the other pastor came out and thanked me so much for being there and let me know were the bathrooms were. He said he has been watching for months and was thankful I was at his church.
I had one church tell me that they are pro choice.
I had one church tell me that the God I serve is not the God they server.
Here is the big problem. Preachers do not teach their members Gods heart on abortion. Why is that such a problem? Because everyone gets to decide when its good and when its bad. It is never good and Pastors need to say it. Another problem is that when God's men and women stand up they have no where to go to find limits and boundaries. When you get to the point were you feel God heart on the matter of Abortion it will pain you greatly and you need to be able to respond appropriately.

Oh sure, I see it now. In fact, it looks like the dove is overshadowing the child, offering protection.

And the dove is symbolic of the Holy Spirit giving that eternal, peaceful vibe.

Very cool.

Dear Ex-GOP

Thanks for talking with me on this message board. I am glad you take the time. Did you watch the video?

Todd -

That's a very different picture and a much different situation than the church you had mentioned. I wouldn't even know how to deal with some of those churches. I think a church that says they are pro-choice or that the world is overpopulated - I think that's straight out of Acts 5 - those churches surely are not from God and will destroy themselves on their own.

It's tough when they appear not to be Christian churches. Appealing to them from a Biblical standpoint won't do much good. At that point, I would think either protesting with signs of just leaving them alone - either is a good Biblical response.

The ones that, at least from your judgment that are truly from God - I just hope you remember that there is legit reasoning behind the approach some churches take towards bigger social issues. Again, it isn't that they are ignoring them - it is the approach of getting people in, getting them plugged in and teaching from there. In those cases - like the church you led off with - I still believe your approach is misguided.

I'm no longer thinking as much though that you are misguided in general, and sorry for some of the harsh words earlier. I'm sure we'd find each other quite likable and actually similar in a coffee shop somewhere. I tend to get a bit obnoxious on this board though because I don't believe Jesus was a card carrying Republican - a view that doesn't seem to sit well with some!

Be good and I'll pray for wisdom so that your time and approach does the most good for the cause of the Cross.

Todd - I did not - I saw the warning on graphic video, and I heeded that. I have two young children (and one on the way), and last thing I need is one of them either walking in, or hitting a link as they are playing PBS kids on the computer.

It is not that I don't know abortion is graphic - I've just never liked that approach. I know that it works (statistically) - which is why PETA, worldwide food organizations and others use it. The problem I have is, so what if it wasn't graphic - would it be okay then? Let's say they could invent something that would simply maybe the baby disappear - would it be more tolerable then? Certainly not.

Thanks Brother. Hey did you watch the video? I am kind of hopping the Lord will touch your heart as he as touched mine. It's very good work we do. God has given me such peace and I sleep so well.

I hope to meet you someday Ex.

You are right its wrong no matter how clean or gross it is but Christ used the Cross and that was very bad looking. But you know how the saying goes, Look to the cross. Once you see and understand the cross than you can have a better understanding of what Christ did for you. Same with abortion when you see it than you can understand God's heart on the matter better. My tears flow freely when i watch it. It changes my perspective. Believe me Jesus gets to watch us kill babies thousands and thousands of times each day, how do you think he feels? You think he might rise up a people to stop it?

Posted by: xalisae at February 22, 2010 9:14 PM
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No you don't - that's actually very cool!

EGV,

Well... it's certainly your call, re: whether you have time/resources/desire to talk over this sort of thing. No hard feelings, though; you're a decent fellow, all things considered, and I hope you didn't take my strenuous disagreement with your positions and points as a condemnation of you as a person...

Maybe I overreacted - my dad once had a guy in his church that had a fit over Y2K preparation.

If it helps: my reaction to that complaint would have been very similar to yours (i.e. the complainer has lost all sense of right proportion about moral imperatives). This example, by the way, is yet another reason why I urge anyone and everyone to use sane reason--rather than impulses, opinions and personal tastes--to decide matters of morality.

Now I know - it's silly to compare the slaughter of the unborn to Y2k. My only point is that a lot of people come around and tell pastors they should do this and they should do that. The world is full of people with free advice.

Believe me, friend, I know! (I'm a high school teacher, and you should hear the "suggestions" that I hear on a regular basis...) But my own point was that pastors sometimes *can* be wrong... and it's not wrong for people who have a reasonable (and sanely proportionate) case to present it. "Pastorhood" doesn't imply infallibility (well... except for the Pastor of Rome, but that's another question entirely. ;) ).

My dad makes crap wages but he's been at the side of dying people - people who have lots kids - people who are going through awful situations in life. He's passed up world riches for riches in heaven.

That's definitely praiseworthy. But do remember that it can be an act of love to challenge a serious moral wrong (whether omission or commission).

So to see people who think that these pastors are so wrong-headed - pastors that are doing their best to bring people to Christ - well, it angers me a bit. It angers me the way it is done (through protest) and the lack of respect in general.

Here's where we part ways, position-wise. I do not assume that all "protests" are "disrespectful" by definition, whereas you apparently do. And the fact that a pastor is "doing his best to lead people to Christ" (which is very good) doesn't logically imply that they won't make mistakes, or be ignorant of some serious moral matter. They're human, too.

Yes, you are right, the calling might not be there. Maybe they are consumed by greed.

Whoa, there! There's no need to go running to opposite extremes; a calling might be absent, without moral corruption (or horrid character flaws) being a factor. Don't you admit the possibility that someone might be mistaken or misled, without needing to be a cad or a moral degenerate?

Thanks for the conversation and I apologize for getting hot headed earlier.

No harm done; and I appreciate your obvious passion for the matters being discussed. Even when I conclude that you're mistaken (or even self-contradictory), I never assumed that you were being malicious. God bless you and yours!