Catherine Palmer at Ethika Politika made great points in a post yesterday:
So abortion is unpopular. Most people don't like it. Or wouldn't choose it themselves. Or think there are better alternatives. Or all of the above. But the problem is this: while abortion is unpopular, it is not unthinkable. While it is seen as a tragedy, it is not seen as a crime. While it is grappled with considerably, tossed back and forth between one's hands as he inspects it from multiple angles, he does not ultimately see it for what it is and hurl it across the room; he rather sets it down gently and walks away, deeming it tricky and intimidating and weighty and not wanting to examine it any longer....
But abortion has always been that way, hasn't it? Out of sight, out of mind? If I don't think about it unless I absolutely have to, don't talk about it unless someone else brings it up, don't see it because it happens behind clinic walls, and don't hear about it because it is not a pretty topic, then maybe it will just go away. Maybe I will only have to make up my mind when a Gallup poll asks me my opinion. Perhaps I will just admit that I'm against it on this anonymous survey and then never say a word about it to others. After all, I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want to push my beliefs on someone else. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable.
Being pro-life has become private and passive. Indeed it is just that: a being, not a doing. It is something we believe and do not proclaim, think and do not effectuate. We are too fearful.
If the 50% of Americans who oppose abortion would all lift it high over their shoulders and hurl it across the room as far and as hard as they could, essentially proclaiming and effectuating their reasonable stance on the issue, then public opinion just might change public policy.
Until then, consensus really does mean nothing.
Questions: Do you agree pro-lifers are fearful in our approach? What could we do to make Americans want to hurl abortion across the room?
It should not be allowed because it is susceptible to abuse.Posted by: Franchesca at June 19, 2010 7:35 AM
A lot of people just avoid it because they buy into the abortion-advocacy lie that if you don't personally approve of abortion, it won't have any impact on you.
Until you get the hysterical phone call from your daughter's best friend.
Until you get some doctor browbeating you into an unwanted abortion.
Until you come home to find your wife dead, and your baby that she aborted tossed in the trash can.Posted by: Christina at June 19, 2010 7:46 AM
Pictures, pictures, pictures.Posted by: Martha at June 19, 2010 8:15 AM
I don't think it's fear. I think the problem is that a good portion of that 50% is not actually pro-life in the sense that we use the term. They are actually pro-choice. They might wring their hands (to varying degrees), and maybe admit it's a life, but secretly, somewhere in their hearts, they believe there are circumstances that might warrant an abortion. They might not be able to or willing to commit to exactly what those circumstances are, but they nonetheless believe circumstances exist. This is not the pro-life that recognizes the humanity of the fetus. They condemn the reasons (ex: convenience is not enough, but rape is) without really assessing the action itself.Posted by: CT at June 19, 2010 8:28 AM
Abortion is not a topic that has brought up much in my lifetime, including at Church. I think many prolifers are fearful because they don't want to be seen as judgemental and don't want to hurt those who may have had an abortion.
I have noticed more prolife articles, letters to the editor, ads for CPCs etc. in the last few years and believe the tide is turning.
Women and men who have had/supported abortion and have been negatively affected give the biggest credence to the prolife movement. They seem to have the least fear and I believe will be the people who will be the last drops causing the overturning of the prolife bucket. It is hard for anyone to argue with someone who has been down that road.
One of the most used and clearest messages in the Bible is "Be not afraid." I am praying that all prolifers become active and vocal and refrain from using violence of any sort.
Be Not Afraid Prolifers. We represent the Truth.
Posted by: Praxedes
at June 19, 2010 8:52 AM
Problem = Cognitive Dissonance + Apathy
Solutions? Education and motivation, I suppose.Posted by: Alex at June 19, 2010 8:56 AM
It is definitely a fear.
We could wear more shirts to get the discussion going. We could have more bumper stickers. But I do believe America will not reject abortion until they see abortion.Posted by: Christina H at June 19, 2010 9:24 AM
I've been doing a lot of thinking on this question lately. It's going to take a combination of two things:
1) Ripping off the Mask/Mirror Nightmare - extreme contrast reality shocker - like 9/11. Over time most people become desensitized to gore/violence - including abortion. What made 9/11 so shocking was the beauty of the day extremely contrasted with the utter absurd violence of the attack. Extreme contrast is very, very effective. It's the secret ingredient in horror movies.
WARNING - GRAPHIC EXAMPLE: Imagine seeing a woman laboring through childbirth, beautiful music playing, her man gently assisting, peaceful - idyllic - then upon the birth, their wanted child is violently ripped apart before their very eyes by a smirkey giggling "doctor" who demands payment for this deed. It would send most over the edge.
The people of Canaan and then ancient Israel sacrificially killed their children by burning them alive. Those children were probably handed over to priests/priestesses who did the actual deed while the mother ran away, continually hounded by some acolyte about the great purpose her sacrifice was serving, so she couldn't hear or think about the screaming of her child. Desensitized, the mother then justified her sacrifice to others, and encouraged participation. Eventually it degrades into shrine prostitutional pregnancy for the express purpose of killing the child - insanity - Satanic insanity.
What would extreme contrast look like on a national level? Suppose considerable audio/video evidence showed a serious attempt to eliminate the black population and Planned Parenthood along with a major political party were complicit in that effort? Further - suppose that evidence depicted laughter, mockery, and exultation at their success? Suppose this reached every hall of power in the US? That the government had been actively involved in that effort? What would the reaction be? My guess would be outrage perhaps to the point of severe violence and national upheaval.
Sound insane? Maafa21 shows it's not. We just haven't had an extreme contrast moment yet.
The second part is to Amplify self-interest of men.
I'm still composing that piece - will post later.Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 19, 2010 9:40 AM
I have to agree with what CT mentioned. I don't believe the polls that say the majority of Americans are now pro-life. It's easy to answer a poll question and say you think abortion is wrong, but what is needed is for people to get it through their heads and their hearts that it's murder. One person is making the "choice" to kill another person. We still don't view abortion that way. Abortion can't remain a taboo subject, or classified as "personal."
Until America sees the baby as a person of equal value, then goes the next step and admits out loud that abortion is murder, we'll never be able to hurl it across the room because we won't be appalled by it.
We must be appalled by abortion. We must be shocked and grieved and angered by abortion. As Fr. Pavone says, America will never reject abortion until America sees abortion. The pictures that break our hearts and turn our stomachs are a big part of that. We must make America SEE what abortion really is so they can have a visceral reaction, not just a detached, intellectual one.
Posted by: Jennifer
at June 19, 2010 9:43 AM
Then just maybe people will revolt at the idea of their tax dollars being given to abortionists.
I also agree with CT. I also think it touches on what Todd is doing with the churches. I know so many Christians who say "Abortion is murder. Isn't it terrible?" but are afraid to speak up about it. They don't speak out when co-workers are spewing their pro-choice lies, they don't lift a finger to help that poor lady in their church who is pregnant and needs help. They don't bother to buy supplies for their local CPC's because after all, they have bills to pay themselves. They say they are pro-life but rely on others to fight for life.
Or my Catholic sis-in-law who says she is pro-life, is an AWESOME loving aunt to my son but then goes on to rapturously support Barack Obama who is sooooo pro-abortion its sickening.
They don't bother to read up on abortion and pregnancy so that they can be knowledgeable when a young teen comes to them and confesses she is pregnant. I've seen it over and over. So I try to prick the consciences of my friends and family. I educate. I speak out. If we all do that maybe we will really start to infect others with our passion for life.
Until pro-lifers really become uncomfortable with abortion we won't stop it. And truth be told, there are many who claim to be pro-life but when faced with an unplanned pregnancy they too choose the evil of abortion. I think of girls that went to school with me that claimed to be Christians and pro-life and went on to have abortions. I think of Laura Hope Smith...who died from a legal abortion. This girl had claimed to be pro-life yet submitted to a SECOND TRIMESTER abortion! How did she get to that point? What happened in her thought process that completely wiped away her previous pro-life stance?Posted by: Sydney M. at June 19, 2010 10:21 AM
Anyone who claims to be pro-life and has an abortion really didn't have that conviction in the first place.
I wish I knew what would make America take a stand against abortion.Posted by: Bethany at June 19, 2010 10:33 AM
While half the country is pro-life now, the support for overturning r v wade is much lower - typically in the low 30's.Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 19, 2010 10:54 AM
"We must make America SEE what abortion really is so they can have a visceral reaction, not just a detached, intellectual one."
Maybe this is why the proaborts get so angry when the slaughtered babies are shown, especially to young people. I was young when I saw my first pics of aborted babies and it has much to do with my prolife convictions. They want us to feel guilty for children seeing these photos but they don't want to take responsibility for what is in the photos in the first place.
"Anyone who claims to be pro-life and has an abortion really didn't have that conviction in the first place."
Bethany, I'm not sure that's the case. It is a common pro-choice argument that we would "change our minds if a crisis pregnancy happened to us". I admit to them that that might actually be true - but the truth about what abortion is never changes, only my view of it. I can only imagine how much more attractive murder (abortion or otherwise) can be in the face of immense temptation.
We are NOT advocates of a utopia where all children are wanted and loved and abortion is unnecessary - perhaps one day we could build a world like that, even with the cooperation of opponents. Meanwhile, the killing needs to stop - and yes, that means that poor women and 13 year old girls and rape victims will be forced to endure a pregnancy.
So I can't even promise that I would never be guilty of assisting a woman with an abortion myself - I'm a sinner. I've never been placed in a position where that option is both attractive and available. I just pray that if it ever becomes attractive to me, it will be unavailable.Posted by: Alex at June 19, 2010 12:42 PM
Alex, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is nothing that could make me decide to assist a woman with an abortion, and there is nothing in this world that would convince me to have an abortion- no matter how hard things got in my life, I could not take the life of my child. If my husband threatened me with my life I could not do it. I'd rather die than take my baby's life.
Anyone who has any doubts as to whether they would have an abortion depending on circumstance really doesn't have any true conviction that abortion is absolutely wrong, and really is not pro-life.Posted by: Bethany at June 19, 2010 1:03 PM
As with any other social justice movement, we need to annoy people into thinking what they don't want to think about.
My group goes about this in three ways:
A) We are taking on a very large portion of the abortion industry that most pro life groups ignore altogether - university hospitals that quietly give their students abortions right on campus. In Virginia, there are two currently: UVA and VCU.
It is amazing to me that people will protest publicly to defund Planned Parenthood and insist that no tax dollars go to them - while at the same time pay tuition to an abortion provider that is also supported by state tax funds. It is a VERY overlooked cog in the abortion industry.
2) We use promotional materials that are also informative. Not just propaganda. We sometimes use some troubling images, but we also make a point to always include some medical facts that people will be disturbed by:
We never use any religious language in any of our materials.
3) We pound away relentlessly at two things: the link to preterm birth and birth defects later in life, and the history of abortion as it relates to human rights accords such as the UHDR, Geneva, and Nuremberg. We are not squeamish about calling Mr. Hitler the founding father of the abortion industry in the western world. His doctor Mengele was also a pioneer of the procedure at Auschwitz. He was later arrested in Argentina for killing a woman and her child during an abortion there, but wiggled out of the charges.
By confronting people with these facts, they get angry. But I know they also go home and contemplate this issue from a different perspective. Indeed, how can they defend the needless creation of birth defects to the children born later?
In sum, don't just piss people off, or annoy them. Annoy them and make them angry because they have been given new information that makes it impossible for them to plug into their beliefs regarding this topic and have them make sense.Posted by: Sean at June 19, 2010 1:52 PM
"While half the country is pro-life now, the support for overturning r v wade is much lower - typically in the low 30's." --ex GOP
Actually, some commentators think that overturning rvw may simply have the effect of punting it to the individual states. Perhaps they are correct.
The real battle is "personhood". We will never win over everyone. Nor should we try to as any attempt to do so would be a huge waste of energy. Some people are so married to their position on "choice" that they will not even consider for a moment the possibility that they might be wrong.
What we must achieve is a consensus that unborn babies are just as worthy of protection under the law as are already born humans. Logically this realization will extend to a recognition of that reality under "personhood" statutes.
Of course we know something will eventually take place that prohibits the willful destruction of unborn human life. It is just a matter of time. The only question is how long and at what cost will we continue to go down the present path.Posted by: Jerry at June 19, 2010 2:05 PM
This is only seemingly simple. It isn't!!
True story:: Some family and friends were often offended by the raucous behavior of the heavy drinkers in their midst. They were further frustrated when they were told TO-THEIR-FACE by the offenders, that "these goody-two-shoes could not be believed because nobody could ever be that obnoxious."
The solution seemed so easy. The plan was to confront the offenders with videotaped evidence. As anticipated, the offenders were deeply shocked and swore of booze. But in a while (usually 2 weeks) these folks were back, drinking heavily and a new strategy. [It still hurts me!] Their 'new' rational was "So what?"
In many ways abortion is like alcoholism. And that being so has multiple ripple effects on EVERYONE both PC and PL. It need not be any kind of intimate thing like having an abortion yourself ((actually imbibing in booze)). WE ARE ALL WEAK and to say that the shock-of-abortion does not embitter me is a falsehood.
I am trying to find the magnificence of my life as a human while others are set on destroying life .... me too! WHERE TO RUN????????????Posted by: John McDonell at June 19, 2010 3:31 PM
I think that's wonderful that you are so certain in your convictions and I think a lot of pro-life people are. However, I also think humans are weak and temptation can attack each of us differently. It's especially easy to give into a temptation that society works to make SO attractive to people in sometimes very desperate situations. Pro-life people can give into this temptation to b/c we are sinners and when we let our fear take over, our minds will rationalize almost everything. Doesn't make it right, I just think that even people we would call hypocrites can be very sincere, if flawed.Posted by: CT at June 19, 2010 5:21 PM
Being completely pro life doesn't always happen overnight. Some of us do not come with Christian backgrounds and we learn over time. I am constantly learning things I didn't know before that strengthen my pro life ideas. For instance, It wasn't until maybe two years ago that I learned of the dangers of birth control. Before that, I might have said abortion is wrong, but birth control is ok. Would that mean that I wasn't "really pro life"? Of course I was. We need to keep educating people and getting complete and accurate information out there, so that as pro lifers learn they'll feel more drawn to action. I am post-abortive, as more than 1 in 4 women are, and I believe we need to be helping and healing the post-abortive population, because we are bold and fearless. But until we've been set free, we're captives to our guilt and pain and will continue to be the ones to silently check off, "yes, I'm pro life" but be too scared to do anything about it. 50% of the population claims to be pro life. And about 50% of the population is post abortive. I believe that's your answer.Posted by: Jocelyn at June 19, 2010 5:50 PM
*oops 25% of the population is post-abortive sorry.
Its kinda like adultery. Very few would say adultery is okay. And yet when faced with a spouse who ignores them or hurts their feelings...many people in their own minds begin to justify it. Some go on to have affairs. Where if you had told them 20 years before at the altar that they would one day cheat on their spouse they would have spit in your eye!
Same with abortion. There may be a girl who says "Abortion is murder. I will never have an abortion." Then she finds herself pregnant in college. She tells her boyfriend and he breaks up with her. Scared to tell her parents, pressured by friends she gives in and has an abortion--something that goes against her very concept of right and wrong but in her head she has justified it. As someone else pointed out, how we view abortion doesn't change what it IS, which is the wanton destruction of an innocent human child. But I can see how even though most people say "Abortion is murder" we still have over a million abortions a year in the US alone. There is a disconnect somewhere between our beliefs and our actions.Posted by: Sydney M. at June 19, 2010 9:52 PM
"Very few would say adultery is okay. And yet when faced with a spouse who ignores them or hurts their feeling...many people in their own minds begin to justify it."
"There is a disconnect somewhere between our beliefs and our actions."
And it doesn't help that our laws condone the killing of the unborn which further solidifed the "all-about-me" mentality thereby furthering the mentality of the the person who expects their spouse to be the end all and be all and when disappointed justifies adultery which in turn causes divorce which then causes lost and angry children which then increases the amount of abortions and on and on and on. . . .
lucifer is indeed smilingPosted by: Praxedes at June 19, 2010 10:16 PM
Beware Pro-Choicers. Catherine Palmer is only going into junior year of college. This is the moral clarity of the young women of her generation. I consider it an honor and privilege to be working with Catherine at the Center for Morality in Public Life. Per usual, Catherine has nailed it.
Opinions don't matter. Actions speak louder than words.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 19, 2010 11:22 PM
God has put it on my heart that there will not be any need for abortion after the rapture. I think that, why would he want to send his precious children down to be born dearing that time period after rapture. May God have mercy on us all that time is getting close.Posted by: asc at June 19, 2010 11:27 PM
"What could we do to make Americans want to hurl abortion across the room?"
Show a live abortion on national tv
"I know so many Christians who say "Abortion is murder. Isn't it terrible?" but are afraid to speak up about it. "
Actually, I think there are a lot of people, especially Christians, who don't want abortion to go away because it's a great way to distract themselves from their own sins. "I might be guilty of (gossip, sloth, pilfering, fornication, insert your favorite sin here), but at least I don't kill babies!" The existence of abortion makes them feel better about themselves.Posted by: Christina at June 20, 2010 12:21 PM
Jocelyn, I agree with you- and I used to be okay with the pill too until I learned what it does- before that, I believed what my doctor told me- that it only prevented pregnancy. That is not the point I was making.
I think I didn't express my point clear enough because people seem to misunderstand what I was saying. I am not trying to make a self righteous judgement (I am a sinner just as much as everyone else), but I think it's just common sense that if someone makes a stand against something and then does it themselves, their convictions weren't really that strong in the first place.
What I REALLY took issue to was Alex- who says that abortion should be made illegal- saying that she might one day help a woman kill her baby. or even kill her OWN baby- how can someone pro-life ever think that they might one day do this? Maybe someone can help me understand.
Imagine if a man talked about how bad rape is, but said that he might one day rape a woman if the temptation got strong enough. Would you trust him around women? Would you consider him to be anti-rape?
I think that when we are tempted, that is a test to show how strong our convictions are truly in any area. I am a sinner and believe me, I understand that people are tempted and can justify things in their minds and I am guilty of this myself, but if you have a true conviction that something is wrong, and your convictions about something are firm and rest upon a solid foundation, you CAN resist temptation when it comes.
A person who knows what abortion is, and tells others that it is murder and is wrong- but then go on to have an abortion, or assist someone in getting one, never truly had a strong conviction of what they said, and when push came to shove, they were not pro-life after all.Posted by: Bethany at June 20, 2010 2:46 PM
Its kinda like adultery. Very few would say adultery is okay. And yet when faced with a spouse who ignores them or hurts their feelings...many people in their own minds begin to justify it. Some go on to have affairs. Where if you had told them 20 years before at the altar that they would one day cheat on their spouse they would have spit in your eye!
I agree, and what a person says and what they truly believe usually comes out through a trial.
Jasper, I agree with you! If abortion was shown on national TV- wow, that would change so many hearts. For people to actually SEE what they support would make of the difference. Especially such a large audience.
If abortion really is nothing big, why isn't it on discovery health channel, just like births and other surgeries? There is a reason that there aren't any shows showing exactly what an abortion is.
CT, I understand your point, and to an extent agree with you...but sincerity doesn't equal conviction.Posted by: Bethany at June 20, 2010 3:01 PM
Maybe a Reality Abortion show. Men and women who have come through to the other side could tell their stories and the negative effects abortion had on them and their loved ones.
The great women who post here alone and who were lied to by the proaborts have stories that need to be heard by the bigger non-active prolife audience!Posted by: Praxedes at June 20, 2010 4:15 PM
"Do you agree pro-lifers are fearful in our approach?"
No. Because genuine pro-lifers cannot be fearful.Posted by: Andy at June 20, 2010 6:23 PM
Contrast? I think that along with educating people about the negatives of abortion, we should also celebrate life. People now put ultrasound pictures of their baby up on facebook and things like that. We need to connect the dots for people in a positive way as well as the negative. Many pro-abortion people just don't know the biological facts of procreation and human development, especially pre-natal development. We need to share those ultrasound pictures, share the joy of birth, and connect it to life in the womb. We were all that tiny once, you were that tiny once. Look how YOU grew, look how WE all grow.Posted by: ninek at June 20, 2010 7:38 PM
Yeah, why don't they show an abortion on TV? They show graphic and gross shizzz on surgery shows all the time. But not abortion. If there's privacy concerns, blur out the woman's face. If it's just like every other surgery, we should be perfectly fine seeing it.
You could even pick one who was only partially anesthetized and awake for the whole thing, like me.Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 20, 2010 9:07 PM
It is funny to read this. The thing that is amusing is that people think Pro-choice means Pro-death!! Of course people identify as pro-life. They are pro-life as a personal choice. Many affluent people think that abortion is not an option because they have options. Heck, if my wife got pregnant I wouldn't consider abortion because I would be in position to raise a child. But for goodness sake, please realize that many women or couples are not in the same position. These polls that claim that America is pro-life are laughable because they don't ask the real question: If you are poor, desolate, with no support and no options, would want the choice to eliminate your fetus? The answer of course is yes...they would want the choice. But people answering this question of course answer no, abortion is not an option, because they cannot fathom choosing otherwise. Walk a mile...etc, etc..and they would choose the right and just choice...and that is to eliminate a fetus, which is just and kind!!! Everyone wins, and that is beautiful. Happy Father's Day to all the dads who wanted their children!!! For all of you (and me), it is wonderful day!!!Posted by: Jake at June 20, 2010 9:17 PM
I think you prolifers all have excellent ideas. I especially like the ones showing the 3-D ultrasounds and prolife stories. I still like the idea some of us had about a "Real Men are Pro-Life" Calendar and a DVD telling the stories of men, single, married and some are fathers. Men like Eduardo, Tim Tebow, Albert Puljols (St. Louis Cardinal star who married his wife, a single mom with a special needs child), A.C. Green (ex-NBA star who was celebate until marriage and sponsor/promoter of the A.C. Green Game Plan Abstinence Curriculum), Todd Palin (Sarah's biggest supporter), Mark Rubio- Florida Senatorial candidate.
Show lots of videos of prenatal development so we can debunk PP lies, seeing pre-born babies moving, swimming around, swallowing amniotic fluid, hiccupping, sucking their thumbs, frowning and smiling. Encouraging prenatal bonding sing to, talk to, read to your baby moms and dads before they are born. The research shows newborns recognize their mother's voice.
I think I would show abortions to only a select audience initially at least.
Just describing a D&C abortion to some young people who wanted to know about it (they asked me to explain) and showing the instruments was all it took for the group to decide they did not think abortion should be legal. No blood, no gore just the instruments. They took a look at the speculum, dialators, curettes and forceps as I demonstrated what the procedure entailed, they decided pro-life. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!Posted by: Prolifer L at June 20, 2010 9:21 PM
Anybody ever seen that documentary "Lake of Fire"? I was surprised that the film maker who identified as pro-choice actually showed two abortions. One was an 18 week baby and it actually showed the abortionist measuring the baby's foot to a ruler to see how far along the baby was. And it shows the baby's mashed skull and eyeball. Very sad. It does NOT show the mother's face. It also showed a first trimester abortion in progress. The mother who aborted (who agreed to be filmed) broke down in tears right after the procedure when trying to describe how she felt after aborting. She just began to cry and cry and buried her face in her lap. Who cries like that over a "potential" human life? I don't cry over my eggs that perish every month when they aren't fertilized. Thats "potential" human life. Abortion destroys ACTUAL, LIVING, GROWING human life.Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:23 PM
Yes, how very compassionate of you Jake. Its all about being "wanted" right? Being unwanted somehow affects your biology and makes you non-human...or is it just a non-person? And wanted by whom? The mom? The Dad? What if the mom wants the baby and the dad doesn't? Or wanted by society in general? Or by a doctor, a lawyer, a rabbi? I am so confused? Exactly WHOSE opinion is it that magically transforms a blob of tissue into a baby and vice versa?Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:28 PM
Yes, abortion does destroy "actual, living, growing" human life. And this is a GREAT outcome!!! Eliminating life prior to misery is WONDERFUL!!! It doesn't get any better!!!!
To answer your question, only a pregnant women has the right to make the choice. If she wants to have a baby, she can go forth, if she doesn't, she can go forth and eliminate the fetus. It is pretty simple.
"No. Because genuine pro-lifers cannot be fearful."
I respectfully disagree Andy. I have been prolife my whole life and think I am as genuine as any prolifer can get however I still have fears, extreme at times. I pray to stay strong but I am also human. If you have ever been harassed, threatened, ostrasized or hurt for your beliefs, it can cause fears.
Sharing ultrasounds are a great idea. I wonder if ultrasounds were shown to students if a job could be on the line like the plastic fetus dolls. I believe the threat of job loss alone would cause fear in many prolifers.
Posted by: Praxedes
at June 20, 2010 9:32 PM
Misery means life isn't worth living? OR that your life has no meaning? Misery isn't a life-long condition Jake. Oprah Winfrey had a very miserable childhood. She was poor for starters, and she was raped at age 9. Pretty miserable. Maybe she should have been aborted? She is pretty generous with her money...think of all the good she has done. If she wasn't aborted think of all who would have suffered without her generosity and the industry she has created around herself?
My dad died when I was 3 very unexpectedly. My mother was suddenly left alone with four children to raise. She was pretty upset and miserable. Better put a bullet in her skull, am I right? And me, I was just a baby really. 3 years old. No daddy. Even though I was a living, growing, actual human being, maybe it would have been better for just kill me right then to spare me the heartache of a childhood without a father.
Your view on life is pretty shallow Jake. We all have moments of misery. Thats life. To expect otherwise is absurd. But those moments or weeks or months or years of misery make times of happiness that much sweeter. Some people take misery and use it to propel themselves forward. Others take it and use it as a reason to annihilate fellow human beings such as you do Jake.Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:35 PM
You should be fearful!! Anyone who fights to take away rights from women should be scared. If you fear, it is because you are wrong. I don't fear fighting for a woman's right to choose!!!
Jake, I want the right to make as much money as a man in the same profession. I do not want the right to kill my unborn child. Thanks. But keep puffin up your chest like your helping us poor lil ole ladies like a big manly man. You're really just a cad. Your callous disregard for children isn't sexy or appealing fyi.Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:41 PM
Bravo Sidney...Bravo!!! You successfully followed the game plan...cite an example of a disadvantaged youth, against all odds, can't make it unless a miracle happens, individual who somehow overcomes hardship (Dad dies at age 3) and becomes a winner!!!! Wow, what a great story!! Do you want me to cite examples of people who don't have the fairy tale ending? Do you?? I don't think you do.Posted by: Jake at June 20, 2010 9:43 PM
Great post Sydney M.. God bless you. WOW! "Eliminate a fetus". Happy Father's Day to all the dads who wanted to be a father.", if you didn't you should "eliminate a fetus".
Please carry on prolifers Good night.Posted by: Prolifer L at June 20, 2010 9:46 PM
You wrote "Your callous disregard for children isn't sexy or appealing fyi." Sorry, but it IS appealing...sorry to disappoint. Trust me, it works well for me. I have no complaints.
Okay Jake, some don't have a fairy tale ending. I get that. But the point is do you know WHICH ones will and which ones won't? How do you know you are "eliminating" the right miserable souls?
And if someone doesn't have a happy fairy tale ending do you then think its okay to kill them? When is it time up? If they're miserable at 3? If they're miserable at 16? at 21? at 51? at 99? Misery can happen at any point in a life. Misery can also be overcome at any point in a life. My point is you don't kill someone because they MAY at some point be miserable. You're certifiably cuckoo.
Gotta go all. Wanna go give my pro-life husband a big smooch! He supported me in my unplanned pregnancy and I find that incredibly sexy that he will never ask me to spread my legs and have our child suctioned out of me. He's definitely the sexiest man alive!Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:55 PM
If anyone on here personally knows Jake, make sure you have a smile at ALL TIMES around him or he may try to be merciful and end your misery for you. EEK! Scary that people think like this!Posted by: Sydney M. at June 20, 2010 9:59 PM
He may not ask you to spread your legs and have your child suctioned out, but he did have you spread your legs...so to speak. And that is my point...men will always ask a woman to spread her legs....and they may not be there like your husband. I want to give a woman the right to live her life if a man asks her to spread her legs...and then walks away. Kudos to your husband, sounds like a good guy...but trust me, there are many men who just walk away....
Haha..yes Sidney, scary that men actually want to empower women!!! Weird huh?Posted by: Jake at June 20, 2010 10:01 PM
What, Jake? There are men who walk away from women after using them for sex? There are pregnant women in poverty? Thanks for the dose of reality, as a pro-lifer, I was not aware such problems existed. *eye roll*
The only difference between you and me is that you advocate the right for a woman to kill her child under these rough circumstance, whereas I promote solutions that do not involve violence.
When a man has sex with a woman, he is responsible for any child that may be concieved. I don't care if the woman lied and said she was on birth control when she wasn't, or what the circumstances are. Irresponsible men have gotten a free pass because of legalized abortion, and it needs to end. "My body, my choice" has become "your body, your problem." I cannot understand why American bureacracy is so terrible. When I lived in Germany, the government takes child support right out of the father's paycheck. Problem solved. None of this American BS where we just kind of hope fathers will pay. Tough luck for men that I put their children's lives above their sexual pleasure.
There are also ways to help poor women and couples. For example, I think one of the biggest financial obstacles toward raising a child is our very expensive childcare. Therefore, we need to nationalize childcare for children under kindergarten age.
Note that none of these solutions involve killing.
You are def. an advocate for irresponsible men and frugal tax-payers, but not women. Most women are pro-life, so actually, pro-life speaks for "women's rights", not you. Shocker--we actually DON'T like to have our offspring suctioned out of our bodies!
And pretty much anytime you say "fetus" we could replace it with "2-year-old." Women are poor? They should have the right to kill their 2-year-olds. She is a teenage mother without a man? She should have the right to kill her 2-year-old. If you consider that excessive, remember that in the 1950s, people were shocked that killing fetuses could ever be an appropriate response to society's problems.Posted by: Adair at June 20, 2010 11:48 PM
A good prayer to pray when pulling down strongholds is that God would give people specific discerment concerning whatever it is that seems to be impossible to bring down. If something is truly evil, time is the only thing between what is and what will be. So time is capable of hurling abortion and God is able to change the times and the seasons.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 20, 2010 11:51 PM
"If you fear, it is because you are wrong." Posted by: Jake at June 20, 2010 9:37 PM
Jake, Were the fear-filled Jews and slaves that opposed the gas chambers and the whips wrong? Or maybe abortionists who express fear of being shot are lying about being afraid and are just wrong in their beliefs.
I stated that I pray to stay strong but I am also human. Being at times fearful doesn't prove me wrong. It does prove that I don't always put full trust in Christ as I should.
Unfortunately, I am still afraid of some things Jake. You're not one of them. Maybe it's time you face your fears and tell us why you are so concerned about a woman's right to choose to abort her baby or not. You don't have a say in it anyway so what's in it for you? My guess is you want to rationalize the part you've played in abortion. Don't be afraid now let us know exactly why it is you care so much about women aborting.
“And being in anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”
"Trust me, it works well for me. I have no complaints." Posted by: Jake at June 20, 2010 9:47 PM
Yup, life's all about you. You keep coming back here to argue because the way you lead your life is so fulfilling, right?
You are way too easy to read my arrogant friend.Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 12:44 AM
Jake is clearly demented. I think it would be wise to ignore him.Posted by: Louise at June 21, 2010 2:50 AM
Posted by: Louise at June 21, 2010 2:50 AM
Louise - that's true for anyone who thinks that being "pro-choice" is not about death.
That's because no one is actively choosing to kill them.Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 21, 2010 8:37 AM
Weekend question answer:
Our youth are our hope for a pro-life world. They have energy and idealism. Get the pro-life message to them and we'll see an end to abortion more quickly. Let's educate our young people about the dignity of human life, the difference between right and wrong, and the dangers of moral relativism.Posted by: Janet at June 21, 2010 10:39 AM
Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 12:34 AM
You do realize that the majority of American Jews are pro-choice and that we are offended by the comparison of abortion to the holocaust. As Abe Foxman, of the ADL, states. "Statements of this variety are offensive and betray a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of the Holocaust."
How do you explain the lack of Jewish support (only in Orthodox and some Conservative communities)for the pro-life movement? Are we "blasphemers" - as I was called by one of the commenters on this blog. Is our religion inherently evil? And before you say that I and others are misinterpreting Judaism, you do need to know that pro-choice is an official position of Reform Judaism - a position supported by learned rabbis and Talmudic scholars. I am curious to see your answers which might underscore the belief that there is a "strain of anti-Semiticism" in the more militant wing of the anti-abortion movement.
And to the person who said that most women are pro-life. Got any data to back that up?Posted by: Sabra at June 21, 2010 12:15 PM
I am sorry if you consider my compassion for all humans from conception to natural death as offensive. Rest assured, I am equally offended by your complete disregard for the humanity of the unborn.
I will continue to compare abortion to slavery and all holocausts because it is indeed comparible.
You do realize that the Nazis were also offended when others talked of the humanity of the Jews, right? I won't be finding data for you about this but I think it goes without saying.
Some people stopped talking as the Nazis recommended and did nothing further. Others continued fighting for the rights of their brothers and sisters to live in spite of strong opposition.
Your arguments are not based on the Truth.
Peace be with you Sabra.Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 12:33 PM
If your religion had not historically held a position on abortion as you say, would you be pro-choice or pro-life?
Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 12:33 PM
So you're saying that our rabbis and theologians are liars? You're saying that only a religion with a pro-life perspective is the only valid one? With all due respect, I'm sure that your background in Judaic eschatology is not as comprehensive as those who specialize in it. But interesting that you say that my arguments, which are the arguments of Reformed Judaism, are based on lies. Do I detect some anti-Semticism? But once again - to equate living human beings, being herded to their deaths, to aborted fetuses is, as Abe Foxman says, truly offensive.
Posted by: Janet at June 21, 2010 12:56 PM
Without any doubt - pro-choice. My mother (an attorney) and grandmother were both very active in Planned Parenthood because they lived in an era when abortion was not an option (except for those who were wealthy who could get D&C's or travel to Europe). Having known women whose health was seriously compromised as a result of illegal abortion (due to lack of adequate contraception), they made a firm committment to women's reproductive autonomy. I stand proudly with them.Posted by: Sabra at June 21, 2010 1:08 PM
I was the one who stated most American women are pro-life, and yes, I "got" data to back it up.
According to a Gallup poll mentioned in a New York Times article, a slight majority of American women do indeed consider themselves pro-life
I didn't bring up the validity of anyone's religion. You did. But since you feel this is fair game let me state to you:
So you're saying that my priets and theologians are liars? You're saying that only a religion with a pro-abort perspective is the only valid one? With all due respect, I'm sure that your background in Christianity is not as comprehensive as those who specialize in it. But interesting that you say that my arguments, which are the arguments of those who follow Jesus Christ, are based on lies. Do I detect some anti-Catholism? But once again - to equate the killing of living human beings before they are born is truly offensive.
If you'd be a proabort in spite of your Jewish heritage, why would you bring it up? It only proves you hide behind a faith in order to strengthen your own weak arguments i.e abortion must be right because some of your family members, even one who is an attorney (wow!), have always supported it.
Peace.Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 1:44 PM
Sabra, what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust was a despicable evil. That said, you are surely aware that non-Jews were also targeted for extermination.
I grew up next door to a woman who was a non-Jewish survivor of a German death camp. Should I correct her if she refers to abortion with the noun "holocaust," as in the massive extermination of human life? Or only if she refers to abortion as similar to the Holocaust she experienced at the hands of the Nazis?
If, based on the horror she witnessed, including the brutal execution of innocent children and adults of various ethnic and religious backgrounds, she chooses to refer to abortion as similar to either a holocaust or the Holocaust, what ground do you have to invalidate her perception? Does she lack a firsthand understanding of victimization and dehumanization?Posted by: Fed Up at June 21, 2010 2:43 PM
I have to agree with Praxedes, that supporting abortion just because your mother and grandmother did is NOT a strong argument (with all due respect for the loyal, loving bonds that mother, grandmother and granddaughter share).
With all due respect to Judaism, it's obvious that they did not have the benefit of knowing modern science back in biblical times. I don't think it is anti-Semitic to suggest that their pro-choice position is perhaps... out of date? To be pro-life is to be on the side of science and not one particular religion.
Interesting article here from RH Reality Check:
A Jewish "Crisis Pregnancy" Group Follows Its Anti-Choice Christian Cousins
By Jodi Jacobson, Editor-in-Chief, RH Reality Check
How the pro-choice author cannot see this pro-lifer's efforts as noble is beyond me. She is mocked for wanting to help women (just like Christians do in their own CPCs).Posted by: Janet at June 21, 2010 2:52 PM
Hey Janet, thanks for that link! Clicking around took me to an interesting article on abortion in Jewish law:
Seems safe to say that there are differences of opinion in Jewish circles just as there are in Christian circles.Posted by: Fed Up at June 21, 2010 3:46 PM
Janet, not all pro-life arguments are based on religion. Nat Hentoff is one of the strongest advocates for pro-life in the country, and he describes himself as a "stiff-necked Jewish atheist." Not all of us are Catholic, I don't even go to church anymore.
What do you say about pro-life atheists and agnostics?
Jake, perhaps someone may decide that s/he doesn't want you around. Does that give them the right to kill you?Posted by: Phillymiss at June 21, 2010 4:05 PM
I'm sorry, I meant to address the last post to Sabra, not Janet. I read the article in RH and it was pretty nice. This woman is trying to help. No one is forcing women to go to CPC's, so what is the problem?
I've always wondered why most Jews are so vocally PC when their numbers are so small. Israel has a high abortion rate for a small country and the Arab birthrate is much higher than the Jewish birthrate. It's interesting that the Orthodox Jews, who tend to be against abortion, have the highest birthrate in the Jewish community.
Like I said before, the "culture war" might just be one of attrition.
Hi Phillymiss @ 4:16,
No problem. :)
"With all due respect to Judaism, it's obvious that they did not have the benefit of knowing modern science back in biblical times"
Science says that, apart from artifical insemination, virgins don't give birth and that people don't rise from the dead. Just saying... Then there's that whole "Trinity" thing which isn't supported by science....Oh, and then there's those "apparitions" (psychotic episodes?) of the Blessed Virgin and saints' shin bones (and other body parts) being responsible for miracles....Posted by: Maevis at June 21, 2010 5:43 PM
My pro-life position is based on science.
My religious belief is not.
Do you feel that abortion is ultimately a religious issue or a scientific one?
"Oh, and then there's those "apparitions" (psychotic episodes?) of the Blessed Virgin"
God has been known to work even through the "psychos"! (:Posted by: Praxedes at June 21, 2010 9:05 PM
Jesus' followers saw the horrific death he died, and went boldly to their own. Did they all have the same hallucination of His having risen from the dead? Such identical hallucination on the part of a dozen people at the same instant is a greater miracle, scientifically speaking, than Jesus rising from the dead.
Science cannot validate God for the simple reason that He is not the formal object of our study and manipulation.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 21, 2010 11:44 PM
Please pick one name and stick with it. Thank you.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at June 22, 2010 6:23 AM
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 19, 2010 9:40 AM
2) Amplify self-interest of men
I was writing this idea up - but it was hard to keep it comment-sized. This article in the Wall Street Journal covers some of the material I was working on:
There's another aspect which is not covered, but I think that deserves a full post which I'll probably do at ThruFire.Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 22, 2010 7:56 AM
What a great question!
Like you Chris, I feel there is so much that can be said and it was a busy weekend.
To paraphrase the question, "What is it going to take before the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ rises up in righteous indignation and says, "Enough is enough !The killing of innocent children stops now!"
I like many of the suggestions, like a national TV show, showing the contrasts of the beauty and preciousness of Life and the horrific tragedy of children being ripped to shreds.
But it needs to have the right host, someone who is super-passionate, has a real burden to defend the unborn, and who won't mince words.
Hope to say more later...Posted by: Ed at June 22, 2010 9:53 AM
Good idea Ed. How are you my brother in Christ? It has been a busy weekend around here. If you haven't read them already there are lots of posts on the theme of abortion, connection to DADT, the "Homosexual Agenda' on a thread about IL. U.S. Sen. Roland Burris who amended a senate bill to provide abortion-on-demand on the military bases. God help us!!Posted by: Prolifer L at June 22, 2010 9:37 PM