"the dangers of not having 100% control over your own body"
----------------------------------------------

Ahh....there goes that "myth" again...

and

"Why isn't pro-choice doing the same?"

Because these pro-aborts only care about themselves and quick fixes...Pro-lifers know this is a long battle and are geared up for it...in mind, body and in spirit.

Jesus said "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." (Mt 18:10)

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32)

Every time there are picketers outside an abortion clinic, pro-choice supporters should have picketers out there peacefully promoting the opposite message.
___________________________________________________
The opposite message???? That you SHOULD kill your child? Go right ahead...see how far you get with THAT message.... what morons!

"Prior to Roe v Wade hospitals had entire wards full of women injured or dying from illegal untrained abortion."

This is a bold face lie.

I really don't see the value in picketing crises pregnancy centers.

"Pro-choice needs to win the hearts of these middle ground people, and arguing morality won't do that...."

I think "winning twisted minds" would be a more doable goal.

"Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing. Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life."

Right. Because two wrongs make a right in Pro-choice-land.

The reason pro-choicers won't embrace the "it's the justified taking of a life" argument is b/c then you have to get into the argument about why killing this life is justified. While you might swing some of the "middle ground" people with the life of the mother and rape justifications, the primary "justification" for the vast majority of abortions is convenience. I think "I'm justified in killing my fetus b/c it's convenient" would leave a pretty bad taste in most people's mouths. So they stick with the false but more palatable, "it's just a clump of tissue" or "whatever it is, we KNOW it's a woman's body and right" arguments. Either way, the pro-life side will win in the end b/c we have science and logic on our side.

The last paragraphs of OB/GYN's piece is MOST telling.

When I was living in a very liberal state, I had the luxury of believing that my position was morally correct and that the opposition was incorrect. When I moved to South Carolina I realized the folly in this position. While I am as Pro-Choice I have ever been, I have met far too many wonderful intelligent caring people who happen to be Pro-Life to continue to believe that their position is fundamentally wrong. Their beliefs are completely logical given the premises they learned as children. The argument that abortion is justified is just as logical based on a different set of premises.

We need to stop fighting about these premises, as such a fight is a religious war. We need to fight with facts, and if needed we need to fight a little dirtier. Always taking the high ground hasn’t been working.

Um, this man needs a lesson in critical thinking. When you have the facts in your corner, you shouldn't have to to "fight dirty".
It sounds like he's coming around, though. There's always hope. Maybe in a view years he'll be writing a pro-life blog post. Praying for him.

Well I'm a pro-lifer and I'm also a pacifist. What're they gonna say to me?? Sure, go picket the pro-life pregnancy centers! LOL go right ahead!

We'll be handing out free ultrasounds, maternity clothes, baby clothes, bottles, breastpumps, information, and giving them free pregnancy tests inside, while you are outside holding up your lame "my body my choice" signs. And she's gonna come running to you with open arms saying "Yes yes help I'm so opressed by all this free baby stuff and caring advice!!!" Please!

Yeah, like ANYBODY has 100% control over their body. If people did, my grandpa would be able to hear the baseball game, my grandma would be able to walk the entire length of the living room unaided, my mom wouldn't have coronary artery disease, my boyfriend's dad wouldn't have acne scarring, and my eyesight would be a whole lot better, believe me. The only people I knew with worse eyesight than mine are actually blind.

"Some of our menopausal matrons simply not up to the task; while young women yawn in ignorance of what's being dismantled."

Ick, this sentence needed a copy editor. Also, woo hoo for ageism!

Maybe the "menopausal matrons" have realized that they'd rather have grandchildren than unhappy daughters and daughters-in-law who finally decide they're ready to have a baby at age thirty-eight and find out their eggs have other ideas.

"There is absolutely nothing to be gained in trying to convince people that abortion is a moral act."

Nope. Although if you try to convince them in German, you might convince them that you're a Nazi.

"Pro-choice needs to win the hearts of these middle ground people, and arguing morality won't do that...."

Let the dismemberment of tiny human beings win your heart!

"Claiming that a fetus is not alive is inaccurate, and this somewhat vampiric idea paints Pro-choice in a bad light...."

Nah, vampires can be more pro-life than this bunch. Paging Rosalie Hale...

"Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing."

As long as we're on fantasy novels, any Harry Potter fans here? Remember Grindelwald and "the greater good"?

"Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life. It is ironic that the conservatives who are the greatest detractors of abortion are often also the greatest supporters of war, and in so are the greatest supporters of killing. To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on."

The South, circa 1861: We want to leave the Union and continue to treat the Negros like subhuman dirt!

Hitler: I want to exterminate the Jews and reign supreme over the world, crushing both religion and democracy!

Muslim terrorists: We want to blow up your country in the name of Allah!

Baby: I want some milk and my diaper changed.

"Pro-choice should be picketing Crisis Pregnancy Centers EVERY DAY."

Yeah, that's REALLY going to make you not look like assholes. "Stay out of there, teenage girl! Don't you dare make an appointment for a free pre-natal exam! Put down that receiving blanket! Damn it, you stupid child, don't you know you're supposed to have that thing dismembered, not knit it booties?" Heck, even HAL seems to get this.

Gosh this is an amazing piece Jill. To equate fighting a war with killing an innocent human baby....and they admit it....it is a life! No one believes that the wards were filled with botched homemade abortion pre Roe VS. Wade anymore. What encouragement that we are winning... What kind of billboards would they do to promote choice???

It has been a longstanding principle of constitutional law that one person's rights end where another person's nose begins. In other words, we cannot impinge on someone else's rights while exercising our rights. Why we exclude unborn babies from this has never made any sense.

"The last bastion to protecting women's rights has caved. But not because they don't have the majority to protect us; but because they don't feel our full rights are important enough to fight for ..."

Oh, boo-hoo. Taylor Marsh's cheesy whine is little more than manipulative crocodile tears. And Nicholas Fogelson's screed, "Why Pro-Choice is losing," essentially amounts to, "Yes, we know what we are doing is immoral, but we need to work harder if we want to continue doing our dirty deeds."

Such arrogance is disgusting. But then, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Romans 1:18-22 tells us that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools ..."

In the meantime, God is still sovereign. In the end, God wins! Revelations 21:3-5 is a wonderful reminder of this:

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.' And He who sits on the throne said,'Behold, I am making all things new.' And He said,'Write, for these words are faithful and true.'"

Not only were the OB/GYN wards filled with the victims of botched abortions prior to 1973, but the Emergency Rooms were forced to handle the overflow on a daily basis.

Overworked doctors and nurses had to triage the patients, setting aside the worst hemorrhaging patients to die so they had time to treat those who stood a fighting chance. That's why we have a glut of physicians, highly skilled Ivy League grads who are fighting for the privilege of training to be abortionists, with five year waiting lists to get into training. The empty ER's and OB/GYN wards stand as silent witnesses to the truth that safe/legal abortions save lives.

Funeral homes did the best business they ever did prior to 1973, and have consistently been the biggest supporters of the pro-life movement, cynically calculating that a repeal of Roe will bring back business.

Just thought I'd fill in what the pro-aborts left out. They're getting sloppy.

Gerard,

If you have documentation of such claims, please provide it. Documentation does not include the tired old fairy tales you just parroted, but would certainly include hospital reports and peer-reviewed research.

An in light of your misguided belief that this has somehow saved lives, I wonder how you feel about all those babies Planned Parenthood and their ilk have butchered? If you would like evidence of that situation, please see the pictures posted on this page.

Tom

Hey Tom.

I think there is a bit of confusion. Look at Gerard's last line: "Just thought I'd fill in what the pro-aborts left out. They're getting sloppy." He's parodying them, or satire, or something... I don't really know the names of comedy types, but what I do know is that Gerard is very, very pro-life and does not believe any of what he wrote; he is just parodying their constant attempt to paint abortion as a "moral choice" because not having right to abortion "leads to deaths" or whatever.

Tom - he was being sarcastic. :)

Tom,

Click on my name below. It will direct you to my pro-life blog. Any regular reader here would tell you that I was engaging in pure mockery of the claims in Jill's article of OB wards filled with victims of botched abortions.

Another give-away is that the medical community detests abortionists and the practice so bad, that only the very worst, the failures do abortions---and there aren't that many of them either!

Sorry if my attempt at cynical hyperbole fell flat. I'll stick to what I know best-science.

God Bless

No problem, Gerard. I don't have the time to be here too often, so there was no way to know you were being facetious. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Tom

Interesting stuff indeed...

I wonder if the pro-abort's are starting to really re-think their positions, or if this is just the normal after-action self-examination after a political setback.

One thing I picked up is that they almost clue in to the fact that they don't have a mobilized grassroots effort. It's pro-life volunteers or local groups that put up billboards or other education activities. The pro-aborts don't do it, because they have a small activist base, lot's of money, but not as much widespread popular support (they do have plenty of apathy from the undecided middle though).

Also, admitting that they can't win the "morality angle" of the argument and should shift to the pragmatic side ("yes it's bad, but so is war, sometimes necessary, etc.) is a tacit admission that we've move the ball a little bit further down the field...

So abortion is in the health reform law, and they're STILL not happy?

Tom,

It's all good bro. Glad you and I are on the same side!! I l;ove your comments here.

God Bless

"Pro-choice should be picketing Crisis Pregnancy Centers EVERY DAY."

Yes -- to make it very clear that they're not about CHOICE, but about ABORTION, and that every woman who chooses life is a personal and political defeat for them.

Tom, Gerard: You would make fast friends. Gerard, Tom is not only a pro-lifer and friend, he gave me my start at World Net Daily. He still watches my back, just like you do. You are both such blessings!

Jill,

Thanks. Hopefully Tom and I can meet sooner, rather than later.

Tom,

Again my apologies if my failed attempt at irony led you, or anyone, to unnecessary angst or embarrassment. As I said, from now on I'm sticking to the kind of writing that I do best. I'll leave the creative writing to the professionals ;-)

God Bless you both!!

"To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on."

-sarcasm- Yes, because there is NO DIFFERENCE between an enemy combatant and an innocent unborn baby. None whatsoever. -end sarcasm-

As a pro-lifer, I support just war (e.g., hitting military targets only during wartime). I recognize that sometimes civilians do get killed, but those deaths should always, ALWAYS be accidental and not intentional, and every effort should be taken to prevent them.

Excuse me, but WHOSE logic is skewed??

Gerard:

I actually thought you drank the "kool-aide" and went to the Dark Side:

Luuuuuuuuuuke, I am your Father.........

I'm glad Obewonkanobe (Tom Ambrose) got to you in time.

Hey Tom we need ya man, come back often, please.

From some investigation I did a while back, 39 women lost their lives to the back alley abortionists the year before Roe v Wade. This number is matched or exceeded by the RU486 and Morning After pills today, not including the Killer Tiller victims.

Can't argue with the facts.

Hate to be the rain on everyone's parade but I think despite what is being said by pro-aborts, the pro-life movement has a very tough fight approaching.

The health-control bill just passed, which, for all intents and purposes, is FOCA. The groundwork is being laid to outlaw pro-life efforts, such as PRCs and ad campaigns through judicial games.

some people on here use pro-choice and pro-abort interchangeably. its not. they are two things.

i am pro-choice. i don't love abortion. i don't say ooo lets get all the pregant teens together and go get group abortions!!! NO i believe that everyone needs options and that they need to be able to chose what is best for themselves.

late term abortions are dumb tho. there i will agree that that is murder. those pictures make me sick

NO i believe that everyone needs options and that they need to be able to chose what is best for themselves.

Posted by: anna at April 8, 2010 11:32 PM
-----

anna - could you please explain what is actually being chosen when it comes to the option of abortion?

At what point in time would you say abortion should not be permitted and why?

New research change presumptions about "choice:" MOST abortions are unwanted or coerced. Many are forced. Women aren't, in most cases, the one literally or effectively making the "choice." Most do not want an abortion.

Forced abortion is happening in America and has been for some time. Women have been beaten, fired, denied shelter, etc. for being pregnant. Homicide is the #1 killer of pregnant women.
etc. for being pregnant.

Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.

Citations for this, plus the fact that mothers are dying, too, at a rate nearly 4 times higher if she aborts vs. giving birth or that 65% suffer symptoms of PTSD, are at http://www.TheUnChoice.com

This important, but seldom-reported evidence suggests to the "pro-life, but ..." leaders and "pro-choice" or "Pro-abortion rights" leaders that this is no favor to women! Rather, it is a human rights abuse and wrongful death at best.

Certainly not "safe," "just" or "choice" by any fair understanding of the words. http://www.theunchoice.com/unsafe.htm

Chris, just in case you weren't following the other thread, Anna is an 18 year old with an unplanned pregnancy... she is relatively new to these concepts and, as many others here found as we grew up, is just beginning to really think about what pro-choice means (I don't think she was aware of the prevalence of late-term abortion until recently, for example).

Posted by: Elisabeth at April 9, 2010 8:56 AM
-----

Thanks, Elisabeth.

I'm aware anna is pregnant. She's facing a decision where the consequences are irreversible, not only for herself, but also for her child.

She obviously finds a later term abortion unacceptable as a choice - I want to know why.

Reading the comments on the post at the Academic OB/GYN blog is most enlightening. Several pro-lifers tried to engage Dr. Fogelson (the author) on the humanity of the unborn. He refused to address the question.

I'm gonna quote the excellent advice offered by Scott Klusendorf and the good folks at the Life Training Institute:
Focus on the one issue that really matters. What is the unborn? If unborn children are human beings, then almost all of the arguments for abortion will fall flat. On the other hand, if unborn children are not human beings, then there is nothing wrong with abortion. All of the other issues around abortion are secondary (at best) to this one issue. What is the unborn?

Anna,

Please let me address you as both a father and a college professor.

The majority of students your age are searching for an identity, and doing so while taking classes at great expense. Many in their third year find that at age 20 they want something else than they did when they began at age 18. Now they're stuck in a major that they hate because they can't afford another year or two of tuition to pursue what they really want.

My best students are the women, MOTHERS, who are returning to college part-time or full time. They're focussed. Having children does that to us.

They're driven. They get the highest grades.

Anna, you are not going to become a mother. You ARE a mother, and a young mother at that. Life is long, and at 18 most of it is before you. That presents you with at least another 60 years for growth and development. It also presents you with six decades of unimaginable regret should you choose to give in to despair.

Don't despair Anna. Give in to love. Keep that child who already has an identity, who is already known and loved by God. Your family and friends will change and soften when they see the beautiful newborn.

And I make you this promise. If you need help getting started with baby supplies, you email Jill your contact information and I'll see to it that I and others chip in and help you get started.

We will take you as a friend and surround you with the love that you despair of.

That's not just for your baby's sake, but also for YOURS.

The very best things in life are usually unplanned Anna. We don't plan to fall in love. Love seeks us out. Love finds us when we aren't looking and when we feel least worthy.

That's what Easter is all about.

Love has found you in this child. Even if it cost you every relationship that you ever had, it would prove that they were not rooted in love. This child's love for you will heal whatever hurts you are experiencing now.

The CHOICE in 'pro-choice' Anna is that between Love and Despair.

Choose love. Then email Jill if you need some help getting set up for the baby. Email me if you need some career advice/counseling gerardnadal60@gmail.com

God Bless

Anna,

A BIG AMEN to what Gerard said. My family and I are on board with his promise to you, too.

Tom Ambrose

i think they are unacceptable because why would you carry a baby that long and then just be like oh okay i'm tired of it i'm done. i think that in the beginning its just different. it sometimes doesn't exactly register that its gonna be a baby to some people and its easier but late term they look like babies do when born. i just think that is ridiculous you cant blame an abortion that late on being raped or being to young, if you were gonna do it do it right away i think.

i hope you all don't think your gonna make me pro-life completely but i do see where you are coming from on many things. i just believe we should all be able to chose what happens with our lives. even if that means "fixing" a mistake, for lake of better words.

thank you all so much btw

anna - thanks for responding.

I'm a dad, my son was not expected and my girlfriend and I weren't married when he was conceived. We married a week before he was born. I would say his conception was accidental - but he is not a mistake.

That was 22 years ago. He has filled our lives with joy.

My on-going commitment to his mom is also a commitment to him.

In addition to our son we now have a beautiful daughter your age and another who is a couple of years younger.

Making a commitment to your child is a choice. In fact, that's really the only choice that's continuously made.

You already have a baby - you are, "with child", if you're pregnant.

You can go here:

http://www.ehd.org/

to see what your baby looks like as it develops. But if you are willing, you can see an ultrasound of your baby at your ob-gyn, or at a medical pregnancy resource center.

Then you'll be able to see your very own child, and will probably be amazed at how developed she or he is.

Making a commitment to your child, or not, is choosing what happens to your life, and your child's life.

And anna - that commitment? It's love.

Dear Anna,
As you know my first pregnancy too was unplanned. Unplanned is way different than a mistake or unwanted. God does not make any babies who are mistakes, all babies He makes are Miracles! I can remember praying and pleading with God "please God don't let me be pregnant, I'm too young, I won't know how to do this, my boyfriend doesn't want to be a dad, please let my period start, I'll never ask for anything again etc., etc." Maybe this prayer sounds familiar?

Anyway, when I think back to that time in my life I think of Garth Brook's song (you may have never heard of Garth -- he's no spring chicken anymore!) called Unanswered Prayers. "Sometimes God's Greatest Gifts are Unanswered Prayers".

My son's dad and I were not making good decisions when I became pregnant and looking back I truly believe that our son is what kept us from going further down the road we were on. Our son's coming into the world most likely saved one or both of our lives, emotionally if not physically.

Anyway, a video that I recently learned about that touched my heart and may touch yours too is called The Call by Matt Kennon.

Trust in the Lord. He knows what He's doing. Even when we don't.

Anna: Gerard is right about women with kids being way more focused in school. I went to a women's college, and the women with kids were the ones getting the good grades while a lot of the ones without kids were drifting around in a prolonged adolescence.

You've skipped two periods, right? From "A Child Is Born" by Lennart Nilsson:

"At eight weeks, 4 centimeters (1.6 inches), the developing individual is no longer an embryo, but a fetus. Everything that will be found in the fully developed human being has now been established. The fetal stage is a period of growth and perfection of detail. The heart has been beating for a month, and the muscles have just begun their first exercises. Two menstrual periods have now been skipped [that's how we know this is you]. At about this time the mother-to-be goes to a doctor or clinic for prenatal care."

All of that is accurate, except that you're already a mother. Your baby's heart has been beating since around this time in March. He or she has separated fingers already, and is big enough that you could see them if the baby was in the palm of your hand, where he or she would still easily fit. It's a very little baby, but it's a baby. And you're his or her mother. I know the timing is waaaaaaaaay less than ideal, but congratulations. Some women spend all of their adult fertile years trying to be where you are now with this baby and never make it there.

If you have the baby adopted, you'll still be his or her mother. (And I'm still making you that baby blanket, by the way.) You can interview prospective adoptive parents until you find the right ones, and if you want you can have an open adoption and be able to get updates about what the baby is doing. You can find adoptive parents who will let you visit. Whatever happens, you and this baby are in each other's lives forever. No human being is a mistake.

I realize I'm going back a bit here, but this one paragraph in the OB/GYN quote jumped out at me.

"Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing. Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life. It is ironic that the conservatives who are the greatest detractors of abortion are often also the greatest supporters of war, and in so are the greatest supporters of killing. To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on."

First, he argues that abortion does actually kill someone, but that doesn't matter. Then he moves from there into a generalization about pro-lifers. From this generalization he draws the conclusion that ad hominem attacks on a position that the pro-lifer being addressed may not even hold are the best way to proceed!

I almost hope pro-choicers do adopt that strategy. It's such an easy argument to dismantle they'd just about be doing our work for us.

Anna, count me in on baby supplies.

And I went back to school with kids. It's true... I had the third highest grade in my entire class of nursing students and won the highest award the school offered (The Nursing Chair Award of Excellence... there were awards for GPA, leadership, service, etc. The Excellence award was for the student who embodied the best of all three areas.)

I HAD to learn and I had to make it work... so I know it can be done. (Oh and that third highest grade was a 3.98.)

As a young pro-lifer, I am happy to see that my fellow pro-lifers are so willing and ready to take a stand for the truth in a verbal, visual, and action-oriented way--both in times of setback and in times where ground has been gained.
I've read the article today along with a number of the comments that have been posted, and I want to encourage and exhort everyone who has responded in defence of the pre-born and the pro-life cause to maintain speaking the truth in love to all concerning abortion; and to continue being bold in thought, word, and deed as you maintain, uphold, and impart the truth, knowing well that the purpose we are aiming to achieve is not futile . . .

I am ardently pro life but have a hard time seeing those pix.