How do you spend your holidays? Members of an IN pro-life activist group called Intercessors for Life spend theirs picketing the Noblesville, IN, home of abortionist Michael S. King, who slices and dices at 3 Planned Parenthood mills in Indianapolis. View video here of their July 4, 2009, picket and here of their November 26, 2009 picket.
Word to the wise: a lawnmower can function as a postborn abortion machine. In the following video, taken 2 days ago on Memorial Day, King's wife Shelley gave pro-lifers the finger before trying to shoo them off with her mean blades. But Shelley quickly remembered pro-aborts can't pick on people their own size and walked off in a tiff....
[HT: Todd Bullis]
Hey, I'm a pro-life conservative and I have to say I don't support bothering people at their homes. I was against the union thugs going to the banker's house in Maryland, and I'm against this, too. Leave people alone in their homes, even if their beautiful house was bought on the blood of babies. There are limits. We can't do the things we hate others doing, and then expect to be taken seriously.Posted by: Dolly at June 2, 2010 2:30 PM
I'm kinda with you, Dolly. I'm just not sure how productive that is.Posted by: Jocelyn at June 2, 2010 2:38 PM
I agree with Dolly. Protesting at an abortionists home does nothing toward making abortion illegal, nor does it change the hearts and minds of women seeking out an abortion.
Personally, I am not comfortable with protests outside of clinics, either, but I understand the purpose of them and respect the rights and motivations behind the protesters.
I think that these sorts of pickets, outside of personal homes in residential neighborhoods, do nothing but make the pro-life movement look bad and turn many people off to learning more or giving support.Posted by: len at June 2, 2010 2:48 PM
Dolly, Jocelyn and Len,
My name is Pastor Adam Briggs and I took the video here. I have one simple question for all of you:
Do you believe that murderers should live in peace?Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 2, 2010 2:53 PM
Dolly, there may be significant similarities with the union mob, but there are also important differences. The guys you see on this video are still respecting private property. They are not in any way threatening the lives of those living in the house. What they are protesting is also very different. The union thugs were, I think, claiming a right to the banker's money. The guys on this video are protesting the many murders committed by one of the house's occupants.Posted by: Jon at June 2, 2010 2:53 PM
I am not down with picketing people at their homes. Picket them and protest all day at their business. Showing up at their home is a bit scary. This tactic is not productive.Posted by: psalm at June 2, 2010 2:54 PM
I believe that the abortionists' children, neighbors, and neighbors' children have the right to live in peace, Adam.
I have read the arguements in defense of these sorts of protests and I disagree that they serve any purpose useful to the eradication of abortion. And that is all I have to say on this topic.Posted by: len at June 2, 2010 3:00 PM
Len is more concerned with the softness of King pillow than the sharpness of his killing instruments.Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 2, 2010 3:03 PM
I think Adam Briggs is a Hero. If a child molester lived in your neighborhood and child molesting was legal do you think it would be ok for Adam and other to point that out in protest.
Adam has ever right and is doing the work of the Church. I wish I knew were the abortion doctors lived min my town. If I got the ok from my boss I would be out in front of their house also.
Adam and Group keep it up, i hope other join you. You guys are doing a great job.Posted by: Todd at June 2, 2010 3:20 PM
I have personally attended these home protest visits with Mr. Briggs and I support them wholeheartedly. These visits are meant to create social tension for these murderers, and that is what they do. They are in no way threatening, and all who attend them would be happy to lovingly share the Gospel with anyone who was open to hear it. I think many times pro-lifers get upset with this tactic because it convicts them to get up and actually do something, instead of just paying lip service to the pro-life mission.Posted by: Jenni at June 2, 2010 3:31 PM
Increased social tension is meant to discourage other medical
professionals from considering baby killing as a profession.
I don't think it's fair to label her as "gone wild". Personally, regardless of what evil or beniegn thing I might be up to, I would be quite irritated by people pestering me while I mow my lawn. It belittles the actual viciousness of abortionists to paint her as gone wild when she is behaving in a perfectly understandable fashion. There's enough pure evil in the whole operation - we don't need to pick on this.Posted by: Laurie at June 2, 2010 3:32 PM
The goal is not to change the hearts and minds of women seeking abortion, it is to change the heart and mind of the man performing them and be a deterrent to others considering this horrendous job. This is a vile and wicked man who is willing to tear children apart. To say that he has a right to privacy in the home bought with the blood of innocent children is ludicrous. To many "pro-lifers" have lost sight of the fact that we are dealing with children being murdered. Apathy and inaction will not be excused on judgement day!Posted by: Brian Lester at June 2, 2010 3:33 PM
"Adam has ever right and is doing the work of the Church. "
Adam is doing the work of his particular Church, not THE Church. Not all Churches would agree with this tactic.
I don't think picketing people at their private residence is an activity that my Church, The Catholic Church would look highly upon. I can't imagine my pastor or the local Bishop giving a thumbs up on this type of activity.
There are better ways.
What should we do in a free society to stand against rationalized child sacrifice?
Everything legally permissible, and anything illegal we are willing to suffer the consequences for doing (remember civil disobedience?).
The death and suffering caused by an abortionist does not end at his/her clinic - if the consequences follow the women home, it should follow the abortionist as well.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 3:52 PM
If I lived next to an abortionist and people with signs showed up to picket and harass the guys wife while she mowed the lawn, it would make me nervous and I am pro-life! I wouldn't want you there!
Yes, I consider getting as close to her as possible on the sidewalk so you can shove a sign in her face harassment.
C'mon, we don't need to be doing these kind of things. keep the protests to places of business. Leave innocent family members alone.Posted by: psalm at June 2, 2010 4:01 PM
"Grampy... those people outside with the signs are saying that you... that you... kill babies. Do you do that, Grampy? Do you kill babies?"
Oh. Yeah. I'd pay big money to see THAT interaction.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 4:12 PM
How innocent is Mrs. King?
She is happy to live in a gorgeous home, fully aware that her
husband dismembers babies for a living!
You too can live in the lap of luxury ~ if blood money doesn't
bother your sensibilities.
Regarding picketing peoples' homes...
The bottom line is: Does it protect life? Like the graphic images, we up the ante when we picket homes. We disturb people, risk confrontation and ultimately are doing things that the casual observer would consider downright mean.
But if thousands of hours of picketing honestly may lead to even one saved life, I believe it is worth it. If a politician, celebrity or big-business executive is subject to public scrutiny in his or her private life, I see no reason why an abortionist shouldn't be on that list too. Why allow them the luxury of going home and forgetting what they do during the day?
Do unto others? If I'm doing something so wrong that it causes public unrest, you may feel free to find my home and picket.Posted by: Alex at June 2, 2010 4:20 PM
I agree with Dolly. Protesting at an abortionists home does nothing toward making abortion illegal, nor does it change the hearts and minds of women seeking out an abortion.
Personally, I am not comfortable with protests outside of clinics, either, but I understand the purpose of them and respect the rights and motivations behind the protesters.
I think that these sorts of pickets, outside of personal homes in residential neighborhoods, do nothing but make the pro-life movement look bad and turn many people off to learning more or giving support.
Although pro-life, I agree and feel the same way.Posted by: Rachael C. at June 2, 2010 4:24 PM
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it."
- Mitch Hedberg
I agree with Dolly. Protesting at an abortionists home does nothing toward making abortion illegal, nor does it change the hearts and minds of women seeking out an abortion.
Personally, I am not comfortable with protests outside of clinics, either, but I understand the purpose of them and respect the rights and motivations behind the protesters.
I think that these sorts of pickets, outside of personal homes in residential neighborhoods, do nothing but make the pro-life movement look bad and turn many people off to learning more or giving support.
Although pro-life, I agree and feel the same way.
Mr. Briggs is not a hero - my guess is that he wholeheartedly supported the murderers of doctors acting within the law. You are no better than the psychopaths that picket our soldiers funerals.Posted by: IowaMan at June 2, 2010 4:38 PM
"Increased social tension is meant to discourage other medical
professionals from considering baby killing as a profession."
Posted by: Leslie Hanks at June 2, 2010 3:32 PM
I agree! Pro-lifers do not advocate violence against babies or doctors.Posted by: Janet at June 2, 2010 4:48 PM
Free Country: If a guy can stand outside my door picking his nose and calling me some unfathomable name, these people can stand outside the abortion doc's house and protest.
That's why it's a Free Country. You don't necessarily have to like the message, but you get to allow the messenger to say it.Posted by: Jennifer at June 2, 2010 5:09 PM
what if this abortionist's wife had a rifle instead of the lawnmower, and threatened a protester, or worse, the gun "accidentally" went off?
I peacefully protest at the local abortuary, praying. I never yell or scream at women. I occasionally bring a sign that says "Excuse me America, this is tissue (showing a box of kleenex) and this not (showing a baby at around 12 weeks or so gestation)." I wear t shirts from American Life League.
I appreciate when the truth truck comes as it DOES change hearts sometimes.
I would never picket an abortionist's home. I did join a protest when Cecile Richards came to town to do a talk at the University. I stood on the steps of the student union with a few others.Posted by: LizFromNebraska at June 2, 2010 5:09 PM
I find it interesting that while there are several comments on this post, very few of them are from Jill's regular posters. Most of them are from people who I have never seen on this site before. I wonder why that is? And where all the regular posters are?
And, out of curiosity, is holding these sorts demonstrations a common pro-life tactic?Posted by: len at June 2, 2010 5:11 PM
What a nice abortionist - making his wife mow the lawn with a walking push mower. But of course male abortionists use women in a lot of ways.Posted by: Kevin at June 2, 2010 5:12 PM
This is stalking. It isn't going to help anyone. It's harassment. This is their home. Though I think abortion is vile, and inexcusable, I cannot support going to someone's home. It's this kind of thinking that pro-aborts will use to their advantage. Wise up, fellow pro-lifers. This kind of tactic does not help, it only hurts our cause.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 5:15 PM
Funny! Its a little sexist, but I thought the same thing when I first watched it, Kevin.
Of course, you know he's all, "Honey, you KNOW I can't go out there with that mob - you'll have to mow the lawn for me."
Which, of course, might be the real reason Mrs. King is ticked off at the guy with the sign. Plus, she's reminded how cheap her husband is for not hiring somebody to mow it for her (tell me he can't afford it). ;-)Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 5:20 PM
Why does he have his wife mow the lawn, why not make is kids do it??????Posted by: Todd at June 2, 2010 5:56 PM
She must have really been in a bad state to go off and leave the lawn mower running like hat. HE should have gone out and mowed the lawn himself and face the music. But he was hiding, no doubt.Posted by: Lori Pieper at June 2, 2010 5:58 PM
"And where all the regular posters are?"
I think the women looked angry and hateful, not the protesters. She flipped someone off who was not even that close to her or her property. She then actually trespassed and mowed grass on the neighbor's property! It wasn't until after she went after the protester that another protester even went on the PUBLIC sidewalk in front of her house.
This protester did not go on her property or shove the sign in her face. He just turned the sign as she went past. The protester's presence is obviously striking a nerve otherwise why doesn't she just ignore them?
The protesters are well within their rights. I don't see how protesting abortionists will hurt the prolife cause. The lack of action over many years has not illegalized abortion. Maybe if 300 instead of 3 picketers showed up outside abortionists' home daily, he would get the picture. And no I do not pity the wife, she plays her own part. And no, I would never advocate trespassing or violence. There is actually not even a need to make any noise. Just hold signs and pray quietly if you want. If there are children and grandchildren, yes I feel bad but let the guilty adults answer to these little ones. He sure doesn't care about the other little ones he is killing every week and she doesn't seem to mind living in a beautiful house paid for with blood money.
"Honey, you KNOW I can't go out there with that mob - you'll have to mow the lawn for me."
I'm guessing the wife doesn't get much say in where the money goes. It probably goes something like, "I work hard and get my hands DIRTY for my money, I'll spend it on what I want. You need some exercise you lazy *#$(@%! Get out there and mow the lawn."Posted by: Praxedes at June 2, 2010 5:59 PM
What a nice abortionist - making his wife mow the lawn with a walking push mower. But of course male abortionists use women in a lot of ways.
Kevin at June 2, 2010 5:12 PM
Maybe one of the protesters could hold a sign kindly reminding them that lawn care is men's work.Posted by: G.S. at June 2, 2010 6:04 PM
As despicable as this guy may be, I sure as hell wouldn't want people protesting around my lawn, and I think most people would feel the same way. Questions of rights aside, it's a bad PR move. I also don't think it's very productive - protesting outside of abortion clinics can present an alternative to women who don't really want to have an abortion, but protesting in front of someone's house is disruptive to the other people in the neighborhood, who were just minding their own business.Posted by: Marauder at June 2, 2010 6:11 PM
If you will notice some commenters on this thread will be one hit wonders. Not to have any discussion, mind you. Just to throw out a comment and leave.
Increase the social tension...I do like that!!
I don't mind what they are doing one bit. The guy is an abortionist isn't he?? His wife lives off the $$$$ he makes aborting children right??
Aren't they PROUD of his successful career??Posted by: carla at June 2, 2010 6:16 PM
I find picketing a private residence very distasteful, despite how much you think he might deserve to be made uncomfortable. Picketing outside the abortuaries is much more visible, and reaches more people. Was it Mother Angelica or Father Fulton Sheen who said, "Win an argument, lose a soul." As long as someone lives and breathes, there is hope for repentance. Pray that all abortionists see the humanity in the children they destroy so they will stop. Pray that all women facing crisis pregnancies find the moral and material support they need. There are parents out there right now threatening their pregnant teens to abort or get out. How can you blame a girl for hiding her pregnancy as long as she can? Obviously a woman who waits so long is terribly conflicted and at least one day at a time chooses life. Pray that they can hang on until their child's birth.Posted by: ninek at June 2, 2010 6:22 PM
No one has yet directly answered the direct question of:
"Does a murderer have the right to live in peace?"Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 2, 2010 6:29 PM
No.Posted by: Praxedes at June 2, 2010 6:45 PM
No he does not. Good question Adam.Posted by: Todd at June 2, 2010 6:54 PM
I need more information before I answer your question.
A murderer in the eyes of the law, or a murderer in the moral eyes of somebody?
I mean, if we're going to protest this guy for doing something that (though reprehensible) is legal in society, would you be fine with people protesting outside your house with things they don't agree with?
I mean, if the guy is truly a murderer, then it answers itself - call the police. If he isn't a murderer, then spend some time changing the law and then you're good to go.
I'm a Christian, but I just don't understand some of the tactics of the extreme right out there.
So my answer is - a murderer in the eyes of the law?Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 7:11 PM
@Ex-GOP Voter, of course not in accordance with the local laws. The local laws are perverse and corrupted. My only standard is God's Law as laid out in His Word, the Bible. If, by chance, man's laws agree with God's law, then great! The righteous will rejoice! But, if not, then we follow God's law.
Michael S. King and his Jezebel wife, Shelley, are in violation of God's law for murder. Therefore, my job as a Christian is to expose what law enforcement doesn't.Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 2, 2010 7:18 PM
Deliver bags of cookies to the neighbors, saying your sorry your presence may make people uncomfortable and raise questions from small children, and while they may disagree with your signs, you feel its important everyone knows that what their neighbor does affects people outside his office and work hours.
"Oh, you don't know? He's an abortionist. Probably kills 25-40 children every business day. Many of the women could (and would) benefit by just getting referrals to churches or social service agencies that want to help, but he won't do it. Most of the time he doesn't even spend 20 minutes with his patients, and they are sedated for most of that time." Etc...
Now I'm wanting to find out where our local abortionists live...Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 7:19 PM
Cool - thanks.
So do you put all of God's laws equal to one another, or only protest the houses of abortionists? Do you protest the houses of people who cheat on their spouse? Or get drunk often?
Your last statement is incorrect by the way - don't blame law enforcement - they enforce the law, which you already have said is non-existent in this case.Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 7:20 PM
"Does a murderer have the right to live in peace?"
That's a really stupid question.
Where do you draw the line? does a murder have the right to own property? a car? the right live?
it like saying hey since this guy is a murder and Indiana has the death penalty shouldnt this guy be put to death?...oh wait that already happened.iF I think people who wear fur are murders can i picket their house? sure this guy might to shady things for a living but you extreme prolifers forget is that millions of women feel the need to terminate their pregnancies each year. They for the most make that conscious decision. Maybe if try to fix the reasons, education, poverty etc. there wouldnt be abortions.
JP Prichard, tell me what area you live in and I can help. If you'd like to keep it private, just send me a message through one of the sites listed in the article since those are my videos.Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 2, 2010 7:23 PM
Are you an infallible interpreter of God's written word?Posted by: psalm at June 2, 2010 7:28 PM
Before you get going too far down that track, you should know that he doesn't have to be an infallible interpreter - he's just has to follow God's Word according to the dictates of his conscience (which is a position I can back up from the New Testament).
If you are going to refute his position, you'll probably have better luck if you use scripture to do so - he seems to take it very seriously.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 7:33 PM
Does a murderer have the right to live in peace?
It is a moot question. Jesus said, before you remove the sliver from your brother's eye, remove the two by four from your own. OK, I made up the two by four (Jesus said 'beam'). He doesn't perform the abortions at home, so far as anyone knows, so his home is not the crime scene. I applaud your passion but not your tactics.
Was Bernard Nathanson converted by harassment or peaceful witness? Peaceful witness.
Was Norma McCorvey converted by violence or love?
She was "Won by Love."
And more recently, how was Abby Johnson converted? Did she not go to the pro-life people who had shown her humanity and compassion? Did she not feel safe with them? She did, and was welcomed with open arms. This murderer may yet repent. Mary, mother of Jesus, is my intercessor. Mary, we pray, lead this abortionist to your son.
With all due respect, Sola Scriptura and personal interpretation of scripture aka "dictates of his conscience" are easily refuted and has been done time and time again. This is not the time or place. Been there, done that.
I saw this coming when people started quoting Bible passages on the FB page to help support their actions.Posted by: p at June 2, 2010 7:39 PM
Wasn't exactly my can of worms now, was it?Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 7:43 PM
I would gladly have "pro-aborts" picket my house for being Pro-"baby"-life and for having more then the 2.1 children. I don't hide behind $500,000 walls nor do I hide my fertility from my neighbors.
But this is exactly what Dr. *cough* Michael King does. He hides behind his very expensive walls of his house and hides his occupation from his neighbors. And sometimes, he hides at his health club.
The group has made a commitment to "visit" Dr. *cough* *cough* King every holiday until he retires/quits or repents. By repent, I mean a complete 180 degree from his current lifestyle.Posted by: Jayson at June 2, 2010 7:44 PM
Interpretation wasn't exactly a can of worms that I opened now, was it?
Of course, if you'd like to expand beyond the Bible, we could always include the collective teaching of the Church.
As for the the original question, it demands for him to prove something we already know to be false (his infallible interpretation) for his views to even be considered, valid or otherwise.
My same admonition applies, if you want to defeat his position, AND get him to agree with you, refute him from a truth source he recognizes.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 7:49 PM
"My same admonition applies, if you want to defeat his position, AND get him to agree with you, refute him from a truth source he recognizes."
Like I said, this is not the time or place.
I don't need Adam to agree with me.
Sola Scriptura and personal interpretation can be refuted using the Bible. The Bible doesn't teach either.
Anyway, this thread need not get set off course debating Sola Scriptura.Posted by: psalm at June 2, 2010 7:58 PM
You believe you have a spiritual mandate to picket in front of the abortionist's house? If so, can you explain further?Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 8:19 PM
There may have been a time that I was sympathetic to this kind of picketing, but not now. It seems to me that a more productive way to handle this would be to coordinate an educational leafleting of the neighborhood to explain who and what this abortionist is. This effort should invite his neighbors to pray for him and his family. It should encourage knowledge, not just unrest. The more his neighbors pray for him, the more the Holy Spirit will respond by convicting him of his need for repentance. Let the public shaming happen at the place of business. Let the education happen with his neighbors.Posted by: Dave P at June 2, 2010 8:26 PM
Addm Briggs, you're my hero. It takes guts to be a true Christian nowadays. You're actually one of those who shout from the rooftops what they heard in hiding.
No need to pay attention to those who tell you it's not okay to picket and disrupt the abortionist's peace in his nice neighborhood.
May the half-baked pro-lifers or Christians criticizing Adam on here remember that those Nazi officers sending people into gas chambers were playing family on Sundays and were considered as "nice" by their neighbors too. No one dared to disrupt their peace. All Europe knew but they washed their hands clean.
Back to Adam.
In the end you're doing the abortionist and his wife a huge favor so that they may wake up and repent before it's too late and before they condemn themselves to Hell.
Dave P -
Very good post. I know Jesus came storming into a temple and was angry - and Christians need to be angry at times - but I also think that these days, it seems Christians are fast to judge and get angry and slow to love and pray.
I mean, they could almost rewrite "and they'll know we are Christians by our love" by replacing "love" with "protest signs".
Dear Pastor Adam Briggs,
I am assuming that you think the answer to your question is "No murders should not live in peace." However I would disagree. I pray that everyone who is born on this earth may live in peace but more importantly live eternally with their creator. There are no sins worse than the other. I am not trying to defend sin but I am saying that doctors who abort babies are no more in sin than you when you look up porn.
There will be a day when the Lord God Almighty will judge each and every one of us for what we have done, but that day is not now. You are no better than the doctor who aborts babies. You have fallen short in the same manner as they. Stop throwing your Pastor title around as if that means anything. I would suggest you spend more time making sure that your heart is right before your Father and I can tell you just by reading your comment that its not.
How can you call yourself a Christian when you are living and thinking according to the Old covenant only?Posted by: Nathanael at June 2, 2010 8:43 PM
While peaceful picketing abortionists' homes isn't what I feel called to, it is perfectly legal activity.
This is a war. There's no other way to put it. Some 4,000 lives are lost daily in this war, 52 Million in the US in the last 37 years. The way to win is the World War II model of success. Open as many fronts as you can to stretch the enemy forces. Bring everything to bear on the enemy simultaneously. Cut off their funding (no federal $$ for PP, no federal $$ for abortions) and supply (CPC's and all other educational efforts to curb the number of women having abortions).
At the same time, eliminate the enemy combatants (here this does NOT mean killing, but rather going after abortionists licenses). Many eventually weary of the killing and join forces with us (Like the Italians in WWII). If some wish to lawfully picket the homes of the abortionists, then it's that much more pressure to drive the current practitioners out and inhibit new practitioners from entering.
I recall in the 1980's when homosexual groups would sit in blocks at St. Patrick's Cathedral every week for Cardinal O'Connor's Sunday Mass, then stand as a group during the sermon with their backs turned on him because he wouldn't approve condom use and gay life. They were the darlings of the media back then.
So with that leftist precedent firmly ensconced in the halls of acceptable political discourse-entering a house of worship and disrupting services-I fail to see where the much milder occupation of public sidewalk space is so unacceptable. The lefties love their double-standards so long as they are the sole beneficiaries.
As for the neighbors being put out...
Maybe they could prevail upon the good doctors to bear in mind that a live birth makes ~$8,000, while a murder makes only about $450. The murderers of babies are social pariahs. Making them stand out as such in their neighborhoods is all a part of war.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 2, 2010 8:51 PM
Cute post. Of course you stop short of saying taking lives because, well, it isn't a war - so as much as you want to make war comparisons, well, it isn't war.
Question though - why not follow women home that visit clinics and protest at their houses?Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 8:54 PM
Nathanael you are right as far as just one sin any of them keep us from our father in heaven and it does not matter what sin it is but you are really wrong when it comes to believing that all sin has the same consequence before God. Do you think our God sees all sin the same? you can tell a little lie or you can kill 100 babies and you think God will not punish one more than the other? You have bought into a lie that all sin is the same before God.Posted by: Todd at June 2, 2010 8:54 PM
Awesome thread Jill!
My heart goes out to all the commenters above who don't see the value in shaming aborionists and their families for the way they butcher innocent babies for profit.
You need to wake up.
This world is sick. It is depraved. It is wicked. John the Baptist came preaching repentance and boldly and publicly confronted Herod about his sin.
If no one shames them into repenting from their wickedness, where will they spend eternity? Scripture is crystal clear what happens to those with the blood of innocent victims on their hands.
IF YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, BUT ARE TOO SHY TO WARN YOUR NEIGHBORS OF THE COMING JUDGMENT...
YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM.
Tell Jesus you want to be a faithful witness and that you don't want to be ashamed when you stand before him. Ask Him for boldness...He'll give it to you!Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 9:22 PM
God bless Adam & Todd!Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 9:24 PM
IMHO I see the logic behind both positions about this issue. I probably would not picket the abortionist home but definitely would picket his abortuary. I may consider the home-picketing an extreme measure but maybe it would be a deterrent for this man due to the pressure from his wife, children and neighbors. Like I have posted before, all the abortionist I have known about as a healthcare worker were considered bottom of the barrel "butchers" as OBs and went into abortion after not being able to cut it as an OB. When they were practicing OBs patients and their husbands complained about their poor medical treatment, lack of expertise and horrible bedside manner. Other OBs looked down on them and shunned them. There may be exceptions to this but my guess is probably not many. Sounds like a great profession with lots of perks and professional prestige, right pro-aborts? Excuse me pro-choicers? NOT!!!Posted by: Prolifer L at June 2, 2010 9:26 PM
I'm pro-life and new to this site and I'm a little disappointed to read Christians fighting each other. But it's to be expected among Protestants and Evangelicals. How can either of you have a clue when your church is 100 years old or less? Think about it.Posted by: JC at June 2, 2010 9:27 PM
Hey Prolifer L!
Yes, definitely an extreme measure, and perhaps not everyone is called to picket the homes of abortionists.
But thank God there are some that are!
We need extreme meaures, don't we? I mean, the world is becoming more corrupt and violent every day.
As the crown jewel of God's creation, Man kills 25% of the innocent babies God sends to the earth. Men who are charged to provide for and protect their sons and daughters...kill them. Women whom God gave wombs for the protection, nurturing and development of their sons and daughters...kill them.
It's only 3000-4000/day in the US. Worldwide it's 115,000/day.
We need extreme measures.
Obviously, we need to continue to condemn all abortion related violence. Shooting abortionists is as despicable as abortion.Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 9:41 PM
A couple of times now I've read comments that people would rather picket at abortuaries.
Which is the last place I'd want to see picketers. Sidewalk counselors, absolutely. Its the last place to potentially stop, and the area of greatest concentration of, women that plan to have abortions that may be talked OUT of it.
Even having picketers when SWCs aren't present just reinforces the idea that they when they do arrive, will encounter aggressive opposition, rather than kindness, offers of help, etc.
Anybody else feel this way? That its better to protest in places other than active abortuaries?Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 9:45 PM
I don't understand how anyone can say that picketing this man's home is a good idea. I don't even really believe in picketing abortion clinics, because all you're doing is making them angrier. I know this because I was pro-choice once, too.
This is not to say I think everyone should be INACTIVE, but *this* kind of action is futile. It is not pro-life, it is anti-abortion.
"Does a murderer have a right to live in peace?"
I am not religious, but I would suspect that Jesus would wonder how pure is the soul of the one who's asked such a question. Since abortion is legal, then he is not considered a murderer by law. The pro-abortion community will simply use these kinds of tactics as further "proof" that pro-lifers are terrorists.
I'm sorry, but this is out of the question. If we are to fix this horrific problem, the slaughter of unborn children, then we absolutely must find a new way to do so. This is not working. It's making it worse. It's ill-advised, it's hypocritical, it's alienating, and it does nothing to change hearts. It is a polarizing gesture, and is technically harassment. What a horrible, horrible idea.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 9:47 PM
Perhaps Ms. King is mowing her own yard simply because she could not find anybody else (like a yard service) willing to do it. Perhaps this reluctance on their part is because of the presence of the PEACEFULL & LEAGAL picketers.
Almost anything legal and ethical that makes the King’s life in the suburbs less comfortable…the better. It is effective in creating social tension…in spite of what some prolife non-activist might guess is a bad tactic. This may not stop abortion on its own but it helps. Not everyone is called to this particular form of Christian witness. It’s not for the faint of heart.
Note the fact the whole thing was caught on video. There is a reason for the camera and its presence may have deterred worse behavior on Ms. King’s part. Note also the rather relaxed postures of the prolifers present.
One of the most appropriate places for a picket is at the abortions home. Also recommended: health club, golf course, Birthday parties, Christmas dinner at grandmas house, etc.
We're not fighting each other JC.
We're having a friendly debate.
Jim Collins wrote a classic best seller on business called Good to Great.
The best run companies aren't run by one guy followed around by a bunch of wimpy yes men. They dialogue and debate strategy, they pound the table, they're passionate, and when they finally settle on a course of action, the dissenters jump on board and everyone starts rowing in the same direction with everything they've got.
And by the way, no church is perfect.
We're all just following Jesus the best way we know how.
And thankfully, that's all He requires of us, to seek Him and to obey Him.
He's a Good God!Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 9:52 PM
By the by, as a former "pro-choicer," it is this kind of thinking, this kind of extremism, that made me leery of calling myself "pro-life."
I am pro-life, and I believe most of you are well-intentioned. But please, please thinking about this. Extremism isn't going to win this war. This is a battle of science, of technology, logic, intellect. I know how crazy the pro-abortion community makes you. They make me crazy too. We make THEM crazy, too.
But they have the media on their side. These tactics aren't changing anyone's minds; they never, ever will.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 9:54 PM
And I seriously doubt that God is "calling" any of you to harass people. I highly doubt that Jesus--or the Buddha, or Socrates, or even Ronald Reagan--would approve of these measures. Enough with the crusades. We are not the Spanish Inquisition. Rethink your strategy or we're going to sink further.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 9:56 PM
I don't know. I'm torn.
On the one hand, I feel like it's perfectly acceptable to share the knowledge of what he does for a living. On the other, I feel like it's a little intimidating on a "what could these crazy people have in mind other than picketing?" sort of way to have people picketing outside your front yard.
I guess my opinion is that it would be less threatening and more effective to simply go door-to-door around his neighborhood informing his neighbors of his practice. In an emotionally controlled manner.
Then, bugg off. Do it maybe once every other month or something to make sure that people aren't forgetting/getting complacent, but focus your picketing energy on the clinic.
I am thinking about it, and I believe I would find that less threatening.Posted by: MaryRose at June 2, 2010 9:59 PM
Would some of the folks who support this picketing support picketing funerals of abortionists who have died? Or women who died having abortions?Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 10:01 PM
Here's the thing.....Whenever someone approaches me about anything, even something I agree with, I just want to do the opposite. I gave up eating mammals, but whenever I see vegetarians lecturing people, and picketing KFC, I just want to go in and get a bucket of Original Recipe.
People are NOT going to listen. Knocking on people's doors, picketing them, this does absolutely ZIP. I've volunteered at crisis pregnancy centers. I didn't see anyone in the pro-abortion community picketing us. Sure, they used the media and publicity to put us down, but they didn't picket us. Because picketing doesn't work.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 10:01 PM
Love your suggestions for alternate picketing sites Tommy R.
MaryLee, I must respectfully disagree with you but hey, we're all entitled to our own opinion right?
I agree with you, that the signs of mutilated babies make the child-killers angry. It's understandable. They would like to continue to perform their evil murderous butchery of innocent children in darkness.
But that's the whole point...
we must expose them.
So what if they get angry? They get angry...they don't get angry...does it make a difference either way? Are any babies lives going to be saved?
Some abortionists have given up the profession because of this type of "holy harassment".
That's what I think.
The killing has got to stop.
Showing graphic images of the horrific atrocity of abortion has proven to be an effective tool in changing peoples minds about abortion.
If you've got a better idea/strategy/method, I'm all ears.Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 10:03 PM
Why would someone picket a funeral of a woman who died at the hands of an abortionist??Posted by: carla at June 2, 2010 10:11 PM
Adam Briggs asks, "Does a murderer have a right to live in peace?"
I won't post an answer to Adam, because I am pretty sure he would simply play semantics to support his answer.
My answer, to other readers here, is, scripturally, no. Vengeance is the Lord's. It is terrible at times to recognize this, personally, because I feel like seeking vengeance when I perceive that I have been wronged.
We have a protocol to follow for confronting each other as believers when we are aware of something really bothersome that another believer is doing. Out of love.
We don't take that protocol and apply it to non-believers.
If we murder, but we then go and give our lives over to Jesus, and ask for forgiveness, we will be forgiven.
Do I like that? No. Not if the murderer is someone who maybe killed a family member of mine, or someone I know, or admire. Personally, I want that person to suffer and go to hell. I have to trust that God knows what he is doing if he forgives the murderer.
And, we really don't know what happens at the end of our lives. We know non-believers will hear, "I don't know you, either. Buh-bye."
But we know we believers will be held accountable also, in some way. I don't know how. This scares me.
None of us has the "right" to live in peace. Murderers and non-murderers. We deserve to be dashed to bits for our foolish pride, insensitivity, and lack of appreciation for all that God has done for us.
It is the grace of a loving father that gives us the brief time any of us has in this life.
I totally include myself.
Over 20 years ago, I loaned a buddy money so he could pay his half of his girlfriend's abortion.
I was complicit in that murder. Do I deserve peace? Sure, if I did not lend the money, the money would have come from somewhere else. Does that get me off the hook? Honestly, at the time I did not believe that the abortion procedure was a killing. Does that get me off the hook?
Each of us deserves death, not to live peacefully.
Oh, and the mote/plank scripture, too.
If Adam Briggs did not declare that he was a pastor, I might offer to jot down the scriptural support for these views, and share it with his trusted pastor for a heart-to-heart Bible study.
Pastor Briggs sounds like a loose cannon to me.
The correct answer is that one of these protesters should have volunteered to mow the lawn.Posted by: Row1 at June 2, 2010 10:12 PM
Well, as Dr. Phil likes to ask...."How's that workin' for ya?"
My pro-choice friends absolutely HATE picketers. Most of them were gobsmacked when I told them I was pro-life. Two of them are now "ambivalent" and re-thinking their position. How did this happen? Because we drank a bottle of wine and talked it out civilly. I backed up my beliefs with facts. I was able to counter their arguments with respect.
I suggest--as I've said before--that the pro-life community take a long (perhaps permanent) breather on the picketing and lecturing and harassing. The pro-life community must welcome those who are pro-life but are not Christian, or even religious. They must find new spokespersons (in addition to, not instead of, the current spokespersons) who show how vast the pro-life community is. There are people like Cecilia Brown (leader of PLAGAL) who are crackerjack speakers, witty and funny, who make some virtually waterproof arguments against pro-abortion statements.
The pro-life movement must be galvanized. It's time to stop doing what you have always been doing.
Albert Einstein said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." The harassment and picketing might win over 1 person every six months, say, but is that enough? No. Because the rest of them will not listen. Harassment and picketing is like talking to someone who's foreign and speaking really loudly and slowly, as if that will make them understand.
Think about what works in the pro-abortion community. Then find parallels in the the pro-life community and USE them.
Banding together with gays, lesbians and atheists won't mean you're "condoning their lifestyle" (whatever THAT means)....It means the rights of the unborn are so important and crucial to humanity, that even those who are so culturally and religiously different are allies in this war. Can you imagine what an amazing and life-saving message that would be?Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 10:13 PM
Carla - that is what I'm trying to find out. I guess we protest and picket sinners - but really big sinners - not normal every day sinners - but I would think a woman who got an abortion would be a big sinner. And according to the above, we should bring signs to homes, birthday parties, whatever. I know there's people who picket funerals already to make a point - and that seems to be the next step - so why? Well, reading through the above, it seems like a no-brainer for some. Unless they aren't big enough sinners - I haven't seen the scale.Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 10:14 PM
Who is anyone to judge how big a "sinner" someone is or isn't?
And, Ex-GOP, a woman who has had an abortion are victims of the pro-abortion movement.
"People are NOT going to listen. Knocking on people's doors, picketing them, this does absolutely ZIP."
Actually, door-to-door canvassing was found to raise voter turnout 6% according to the National Academy of Sciences. And in all honesty, isn't this a huge portion of why Obama's campaign did so well? He had people talking about him, canvassing and direct calling. Between the gargantuan effort to get to people personally and the focus on the use of new media (ie internet), Obama really went from pipe dream to president quickly. Well, we're utilizing the internet and we already know we have the mass numbers of activist supporters to do it in person!Posted by: MaryRose at June 2, 2010 10:19 PM
MaryLee - first off - I hope you realize my post is dripping with sarcasm.
I mean, it is clear that there are many who are essentially ranking sins, deciding that they are above their own and judging sins of people who don't claim to be Christians and live by a different moral code - so instead of reaching out with love and a message of Christ, they are essentially rewriting the great commission to beat people with their morality.
On your second statement - is somebody who hires a hitman to kill somebody a victim of the hitman?Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 10:22 PM
There's a difference between a presidential campaign, and those on a mission to change someone's philosophical beliefs and voting habits. So going door-to-door and handing out pamphlets isn't going to work. Maybe it's because I live in a blue state, but let me tell you, if you go door-to-door, that door will be slammed in your face. If the person at that residence is polite enough to listen to you, they'll take your literature and throw it away. Or burn it.
The pro-life community must wake up. In order to change their hearts, you have to be able to think like them. The pro-life community is not thinking like them, and that is why these tactics fail again and again and again.
Please listen Adam and followers, I used to be Pro-choice and a liberal and I am now Pro-Life and religious. If it wasn't for my mother praying for me I'd still be down the same downward spiral. But prayer works. I regularly go to the Planned Parenthood to pray and all I see are Protestants screaming at the guards and volunteers that they are going to hell. They chant bible verses and are argumentative with little old ladies. They make me very uncomfortable (and I'm on their side) despite me being to myself to just pray and hold my written sign. What is the problem with this picture? They are not going to convert the security guards and volunteers by getting in their faces. They look like crazy people even to me who is on their side! They cannot get a scared and desperate mother to talk to them if the guy on the ladder is yelling at her over the fence. This is really bad and hurts the movement despite what you think. When I tell people I am pro-life they think of the signs and people yelling Bible verses in the streets. Jesus didn't scream and yell. He did everything with love and patience. Pray Adam. If you must be in front of the abortionist house, pray on your knees and not say a single word. God Bless you.Posted by: JC at June 2, 2010 10:28 PM
Ah, Ex-GOP, I see what you're saying.
The comparison of someone hiring a hitman to a woman seeking an abortion is, on many levels, inaccurate. I can see how someone who is pro-life could think this. A woman pays money to someone who kills her baby.
But think about the woman in this position. I *was* a woman in this position (a crisis pregnancy....I did not abort my child, which ended up changing my perspective on abortion completely). Many, many women in this position are frightened, are confused, and are trying to find a solution. They are told this is their right, and that they are doing nothing wrong. The pro-abortion community has some pretty persuasive people.
And many of these women are scarred--either emotionally, or physically, or both--from the lies they are told by pro-aborts.
If we can't look at our opponents as SELVES--not simply an "enemy"--then we will never be able to gain THEIR respect and trust, which then would lead to fairer discourse, and crucial debate, which would most likely change their hearts for good. Right now, they see us as crazy monsters. We see them as crazy monsters.
But my friends who are for abortion rights are not monsters. They're just not informed. That is why being patient and understanding with them has helped me more than getting angry and lecturing them.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 10:28 PM
Nothing cute about the post. This IS a war, and the reason why I stop well short of murder is because the ends never justify the means. Everything about this conflict follows the basic paradigm of war.
The pro-life movement is advancing because it has incorporated more and more of the tactics of war in defeating the enemy, who is ultimately Satan.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 2, 2010 10:29 PM
MaryLee, I live in a blue state too but I think the failure is in the individuals' approach to picketing and not the picketing itself. Rather than hiding behind a sign with a bold statement, it's important to open your ears to what the other side is saying. Ask questions and show an interest and then counter with well-contemplated arguments. There isn't really a new pro-abort argument out there, so it's all about finding out what drives that person and then connecting it to Truth. And believe it or not, picketing can be an effective way of doing that.
In the case of King and other abortionists, though, the priority would be to cause enough tension to dissuade the abortionist from his job. And I guess I feel like if you can do that without being threatening or violent, then you're doing a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong though. I have never been a part of that sort of picket and I would have to contemplate and pray quite a bit before seriously considering it.Posted by: MaryRose at June 2, 2010 10:30 PM
MaryLee - I don't believe there will ever be an outright ban on abortions because in the end, if abortion is fully murder, then you have to treat it like murder, and thus the hitman scenario. I've been in debates on this board with folks who say (and it is a logical position) that abortion should be legal and the punishment for anyone getting an abortion or performing should be the same as first degree murder.
I think we need to love people, all people, help people, and then maybe women won't feel that they are in a situation where they feel trapped.Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 10:33 PM
The reason you stopped short of killing in your war comparison is because it is a bad comparison. Have you studied war before? I think it's tough to compare Japanese soldiers and women getting abortions.
The pro-life movement is advancing? Really?
Really?Posted by: Ex-GOP Voter at June 2, 2010 10:36 PM
Mary Rose, picketing isn't effective. It isn't.
You have the right to picket, sure. But it isn't working. If more people are becoming pro-life, it isn't because of these stunts. It's because of the ultrasound, because of better pre-natal care, because a generation of children grew up without their siblings and they know it.
But it's this kind of thinking which is just going to keep us at an impasse. How can you say this kind of harassment is working? How can you say you believe in God, and then act in a way that is completely different from the way Jesus would have acted?
But then, many in the community don't want to listen. And it's this kind of stagnation, this kind of zealotry, that is hurting this movement.Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 10:38 PM
MaryLee (love the name, btw XD)
I'm reading through your posts & I think we mostly agree except that I'm not willing to write off picketing altogether and you're seeing too much abuse of it to see the benefit. I'm perhaps too optimistic to expect to be able to get people to change their approach, but I've seen some beautiful powerful prayerful vigils.
Mary Rose, powerful how? Powerful for you? Did women come up to you and say, "Now I'm not going to have an abortion" Did those working in clinics say "I've changed my mind"...? I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just wondering.
It's extremely naive and, frankly, dangerous to think that prayer vigils and picketing are effective means to change people's hearts where abortion is concerned. I'm not a pessimist--but in my 12 year study, I have never, ever seen picketing do any good.
Again, we have to think of this as a chess match. If this is a war, then we need to go to the tent and think about our strategy. I highly doubt George Washington told his troops, "Okay, fellas, just keep charging at them without really thinking about what you're doing, and if it doesn't work, keep charging at them anyway!"
How do pro-aborts think? What do they use to their advantage? They use, to their advantage, this kind of behavior. They use, to their advantage, the polarizing religious zealotry and language used, the extremist tactics.
Yes, pro-aborts have extremists, too. Yes, they also manipulate religious language. But, again, they have the media. They have the money. They have the resources.
If we are coming at them with hatred, anger, harassment, violence, disregard for privacy, disregard for personal space, then how can they ever take us seriously?Posted by: MaryLee at June 2, 2010 10:46 PM
Hi Ed. How are you?
There have been a lot of good points brought up here on both sides of the issue like I said.
I see picketing can call people's attention to what is actually going on inside of the abortuary. Many times people don't even know that abortions are being done in their community. It calls the community to take action. "Silence is consent", I firmly believe that. Also have seen babies saved while we were picketing as the sidewalk counselors did their job and prayer intercesors did their job as well. So we need every piece of the prolife movement in place.
By the way Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his niece Dr. Alveda King would definitely disagree with those who say picketing "does no good or does more harm than good". Jim Crow, segregated schools, colored vs. white bathrooms and segregated lunch counters did not go away by themselves. Dr. King was criticized for "inciting" the police to turn on the water hoses by him peacefully marching, praying and singing "WE SHALL OVERCOME". Racism is not dead in America but we have come a long way, we have a African American President, (who unfortunately has sworn alligiance to the pro-death movement). I would say picketing is quite effective.Posted by: Prolifer L at June 2, 2010 10:50 PM
When I first looked at it my first thought was that they shouldn't be there. But after I read the comments and was reminded of what this man does for a living and the price women and children pay for his actions. This is my opinion as long as the picketers are peaceful and not trespassing and in complete adherance to the law why not picket if it's done legally. This man (the abortionist) goes to work daily and is protected by the law. So if the law works for the man who goes and kills babies the law should also work for those who chose to picket. Hopefully you'll are putting scriptures on those signs as well. And hopefully when you'll picket clinics you'll are letting the moms know about places they can go to get help. When you'll picket the clinics and their homes peacefully you'll should also thank God that he's going to use these locations for something that adds to peoples lives and doesn't take away. Once while driving past a bar I used to go to before I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit I just thanked God that the bar was going to close down and a carwash was going to take it's place. And that's exactly what happened. :0)Posted by: myrtle miller at June 2, 2010 10:52 PM
There is a good reason to picket an abortionist anywhere they happen to be: To keep the stigma that it is unpleasant and socially-unacceptable, at least to a huge segment of society.
This will help people reconsider before choosing it as their profession. So it become more than just a question of how much money they will make, or how unpleasant (or not) it is to perform an abortion - a potential abortionist/nurse/abortuary staff member will also have to factor in that they will be publicly shunned.
And let's not say that we shouldn't shun people that continue to murder children: it is possible to treat someone restrictively while continuing to reach out to them (ever been related to a junkie?). Keeping some perspective: It's more vile to murder a child than to molest one - and you see how we keep child molesters are arm's length, even if we are interested in their reintegration into society.
So, keep up the pressure, make sure everyone knows that a huge portion of us believe its NOT ok, even if its legal.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 11:00 PM
And that there are huge social consequences.
And the bigger we make them, the better.Posted by: JP Prichard at June 2, 2010 11:06 PM
Well, a couple of young women turned away from the Planned Parenthood once, and I once had a woman who got into a conversation with one of my fellow protestors about abortion join her in prayer they actually went into a CPC together.
I think prayer is the most powerful weapon in our arsenal. God changes hearts, not us. All we can do in this case is to be a filter for the Holy Spirit's work.
Can't say that I support the idea that we should do what it takes to get the money so that we can compete on a political/media field. Wouldn't say that's doing God's will, either.
You misread my intention for picketing if you're using words like hatred, anger, harassment and violence. My approach is a lot quieter and a lot more contemplative than I think you are reading it. I believe that you start your work by listening. Listening to God, then listening to your opponent (do not confuse this with agreeing with your opponent). Then reflect and THEN counter.Posted by: MaryRose at June 2, 2010 11:06 PM
"Think about what works in the pro-abortion community. Then find parallels in the the pro-life community and USE them."
I just don't see how catering to prolifers' narcissism is going to help our movement.Posted by: Praxedes at June 2, 2010 11:17 PM
For openers, the name is Gerard. It's a mistake you make repeatedly.
Secondly, did I compare Japanese soldiers to women having abortions? No. That's your straw man, so have fun playing with it.
Have I studied war? Yes. Since my teen years. The Civil War and WWII. However, since you raise the specter of Japanese soldiers, perhaps you are familiar with the Rape of Nanking during the war, when Japanese soldiers routinely impaled Chinese babies on their bayonets. Sounds an awful lot like abortionists to me.
Do read Iris Chang's "Rape of Nanking". I was fortunate enough to have met her and spoken with her at length, before the demons of what she brought to light drove her to suicide.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 2, 2010 11:18 PM
I find the debate here entertaining and a bit amusing.
Changing people's attitudes, breaking up their fallow ground, requires a lot of hard work. And even then, if they don't want to change, "they ain't changin'". You can shout and yell, or be soft and sweet, and if they want to kill their children, that's what they're going to do.
I mentioned this before on a different thread: when parenting, isn't it most effective when shaping the character and concepts of right and wrong in your children when one parent "plays the heavy" and establishes clear rules and the consequences for breaking them while the other takes a more consultative approach? Isn't "good cop, bad cop" an effective interrogation method?
I believe the Pro-Life Army (because this is war EGV) needs both tactics. We need to boldly uncompromisingly confront the evil in our generation and at the same time show love and compassion to pro-aborts on a personal level. Many pro-aborts are the victims of rape or other type of abuse (largely by men) and need emotional healing.
In other words, I think it would be great if this abortionist's wife was totally ashamed, upset and beside herself by her husband's evil profession being exposed to the light of day for all her neighbors to see. And then if she had a Pro-Life friend she could talk to, reason with and just talk it all out, it could really help.
But there are no guarantees. If she is unwilling to give up or modify the lifestyle she's grown accustomed to by the river of blood-stained money her husband has provided...
she will die in her sin.Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 11:21 PM
And yes, Ex-GOP, the pro-life movement IS advancing. We're winning this war. We have science on our side. Take a peek at one of our deadliest weapons:Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 2, 2010 11:22 PM
The correct answer is that one of these protesters should have volunteered to mow the lawn.
Posted by: Row1 at June 2, 2010 10:12 PM
This is exactly what I was thinking. Voice of the Martyrs founder, Richard Wurmbrand, was in a communist prison for 14 years because of his faith. He describes how he won communist guards to the Lord by praying for them and loving them even while they tortured him. Some of the guards became Christians and were later imprisoned with him. He said that protesting communism, although 'right', doesn't bring anyone to a saving knowledge of Jesus.
What if every week the pro-lifers took turns reaching out to the abortionist and his family? Sought out ways to be a help to them? Why? Because Christ didn't win me, despicable as I am, by His wrath, but by His grace. Because the man who won Richard Wurmbrand to the Lord 'courted me as never a beautiful girl had been courted.' (Tortured for Christ)
If the abortionist retires because of the protesting- great! But he will still die without knowing the love of Jesus.
If we win him with love- think of the possibilities:
-more than likely his family will come to the Lord along with him, it happens often.
-he will become a pro-life advocate.
-he will be another brother in Christ to enjoy and another set of hands and feet in the body of Christ.
His whole family and generations following them will be changed because of the love shown to one man and woman. His children will not look down on pro-lifers and Christians, but may be among their ranks.
The Holy Spirit is more powerful than all our strategies and planning. He alone is able to change the hearts of man, to reveal Truth, to bring righteousness.Posted by: Heather M at June 2, 2010 11:27 PM
Posted by: Prolifer L at June 2, 2010 10:50 PM
A hearty AMEN Prolifer L!
I'm doing well, thanks for asking. I trust you are as well.
Thanks for reminding us of the struggles of our African American brothers and sisters and the measures they needed to employ to see justice done.
Good night all!
(the letter I need to type in is x, reminding me of xalisae. I hope she's doing Ok. I haven't seen her around in a while but I've been busy myself lately as well)Posted by: Ed at June 2, 2010 11:29 PM
"I think prayer is the most powerful weapon in our arsenal. God changes hearts, not us."
Prayerful, Peaceful Picketing and Protesting Everywhere!
Come Holy Spirit!Posted by: Praxedes at June 2, 2010 11:30 PM
I sure don't like the tone of many of these posts. I don't condone harassment. It undermines the peaceful message some of us are trying to convey. Sadly, I guess it shows that one cannot make sweeping generalizations about people who are pro-life. I certainly disagree with many of the comments here that are coming from supposed Christians. Some of it is downright mean-spirited. Much of it is counterproductive.Posted by: Ninek at June 3, 2010 2:45 AM
With all due respect Ninek, I don't see where anyone here is condoning harassment. The definition of what constitutes harassment seems to be a bit broader for some prolifers than others.
I just don't personally believe that peacefully picketing someone's home who kills humans for big dollars is harassing behavior. I am sorry if you believe this makes me less Christian than you. In the end, I won't be answering to anyone but my Savior. I don't see you as less Christian because you oppose picketing abortionist's homes and like to hear ideas and thoughts from other prolifers. On this topic, I politely agree to disagree.
I hope this discussion has provoked prolifers to look at the prolife cause through different eyes and realize that maybe we should not be making sweeping generalizations about prolifers. We are all different (some not even Christian) but still all fighting to save the unborn and, I believe, we are all called to action in different ways.
Peace.Posted by: Praxedes at June 3, 2010 5:36 AM
That was a funny comment about his wife mowing the lawn. Maybe she likes the exercise? I applaud men who stand up for life. MANY women have changed their minds because of protestors. Our presence is important but so is prayer and sacrifice. We should daily offer up a small sacrifice for an end to abortion. I appreciate men going out on a limb for babies and women. Thanks you!Posted by: Linda at June 3, 2010 6:00 AM
len, 5:11p, wrote: I find it interesting that while there are several comments on this post, very few of them are from Jill's regular posters. Most of them are from people who I have never seen on this site before. I wonder why that is? And where all the regular posters are?
Welcome to all new posters, likely here because of this specific post. My opinion? I commend Pastor Adam and his group. Quite simply, no justice no peace.
MaryLee, 10:13p, wrote: My pro-choice friends absolutely HATE picketers. Most of them were gobsmacked when I told them I was pro-life. Two of them are now "ambivalent" and re-thinking their position. How did this happen? Because we drank a bottle of wine and talked it out civilly. I backed up my beliefs with facts. I was able to counter their arguments with respect.
MaryLee, ever heard of "good cop/bad cop"? You're the good cop, which is great. But bad cops fill an important role, too.
And MaryLee, 10:38p, wrote: You have the right to picket, sure. But it isn't working. If more people are becoming pro-life, it isn't because of these stunts. It's because of the ultrasound, because of better pre-natal care, because a generation of children grew up without their siblings and they know it.
MaryLee, it takes a village. Picketing does work - as do all the other efforts you named. Many people have been converted by seeing the reality of abortion d/t pickets. And one reason there is such a shortage of abortionists is because they fear the pickets and the social ostracization that comes with them.
Again, great conversation. As Someone once said, "Come, let us reason together."Posted by: Jill Stanek at June 3, 2010 6:36 AM
Hey, MaryLee, I agree with basically everything you're saying. :)
Also what is up with the comments about his wife mowing the lawn with GASP a push-mower? Seriously!? I mean, I do a lot of physical labor in a male-oriented field, but even if I didn't I wouldn't really consider lawn-mowing all that difficult - my sister and I did it all through high school. My mom mows my parents' lawn. With a push-mower. She's of the opinion that a little elbow grease is good for you AND your wallet, and she and my dad enjoy spending the money they save on other ways to make their house nice. If anyone went up to my dad and was like "I can't believe you make your wife MOW YOUR LAWN like that" - well, I'd have some words for them. Haha.
What a bizarre topic of conversation.Posted by: Alexandra at June 3, 2010 7:27 AM
I want to take a moment and glorify God, our creator and giver of LIFE.
I also want to thank Rudy Guerrero, the founder of Intercessors for Life, for heading up this group of which I am proud to be a part.
To the other man in the video, Rich Holst, I thank you as well for your tenacity in standing for the children, no matter what the cost.
I am ashamed to live during these times of calamity, but am honored to have these men as my brothers.
To all here, please consider doing more. On Monday, I encouraged our whole group to consider doing more to avoid complacency and stagnancy.
If I was a baby in the womb, I would want some wild eyed pro-lifers out on the highways and byways crying out for justice!Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 3, 2010 7:28 AM
"MaryLee - I don't believe there will ever be an outright ban on abortions because in the end, if abortion is fully murder, then you have to treat it like murder, and thus the hitman scenario. I've been in debates on this board with folks who say (and it is a logical position) that abortion should be legal and the punishment for anyone getting an abortion or performing should be the same as first degree murder."
Back when abortion was illegal in America, women who had abortions weren't prosecuted. The abortionists were prosecuted because the women were considered to be desperate and victimized.Posted by: Marauder at June 3, 2010 7:55 AM
"Carla - that is what I'm trying to find out. I guess we protest and picket sinners - but really big sinners - not normal every day sinners - but I would think a woman who got an abortion would be a big sinner."
Then I am a really big sinner!!!(and a normal everyday sinner as well)I am saved by grace. Sin is sin. I believed that God would NEVER forgive my sin of abortion. But He did after I repented. There is hope and healing after abortion.
If you are struggling after your abortion please email me
I will help you find abortion recovery resources.
What a great thread!!Posted by: carla at June 3, 2010 8:31 AM
"The abortionists were prosecuted because the women were considered to be desperate and victimized"
Oh, wow. If there was ever a comment that underscored the paternalism and misogyny of the anti-choice movement, this is the money shot!!! Those women are like little children who are just so easily influenced to do a bad thing. (snark) Whatever happened to the concepts of intellect and free will? Yes, many women are desperate and victimized and that is why they need to have access to safe and legal abortion - a procedure that they chose because they are able, unless they are considered "incompetent" and have a legal guardian, to do of their own volition. To say that a woman is not able to make a choice is tantamount to saying that she is incompetent. If abortion is considered murder, the woman having the abortion is a murderer - no exceptions made. Are accessories to murder not prosecuted because they have been "victimized" or "desperate?"
And Dr. Nadal. How would you like it if those in the pro-choice movement picketed your church. Rather than signs, we could carry coathangers. BTW, some years back, in my area, a Jewish doctor was picketed at his home. There was lots of Christian iconography used and taunts of how he was going to burn in hell. Nice to know that because it's a "war," you're on board with this kind of thing.Posted by: Rachel at June 3, 2010 8:54 AM
I believe Maruader was talking about when abortion was illegal. You know way back in the dark ages of 1972.
How is it choice if you feel like you have no choice? If you are lied to, coerced or forced to have an abortion how is that choice? Women who feel desperate are preyed upon by the abortion industry. They are presented with ONE choice at an abortion clinic.Posted by: carla at June 3, 2010 9:05 AM
I think these are just a few scriptures that justify orderly picketing. I think the entire chapter of Isaiah 58 is evidence that what the picketers are doing is right. And it is also like a mirror that will help us as Christians to examine our actions in the light of God's word to make sure that whatever we do for God is being done in the right spirit. I hope you'll are putting some good scriptures on those signs. The Word I believe and have experienced personally is able to speak to the heart.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 3, 2010 9:10 AM
64% of women who have abortions feel pressured by others to do so.
This story told by abortionist, William Harrison, is before abortion was legal.
"By 1967 I was a third year medical student, still with no visible means of support, and we were pregnant with our third child. It was the spring of that year and I was ending my rotation in the Ob-Gyn Service clinic. I was assigned a 40 plus year old, poverty stricken mother of several children. I think she was unmarried but I am not sure of that now. This care worn mother-of-several had a large abdominal mass that I rapidly determined to be a well advanced pregnancy. I asked my resident to come and break the news to this woman; it was very obvious to me that she was not going to be happy about the news of another pregnancy. When told that she - already unable to adequately feed and clothe her family - was again pregnant, she looked up at me and the resident. There we stood, two white males, well clothed, well feed young men with superior educations. We were, in her eyes, stunningly blessed and obviously going places in the world. She began to weep silently. She must have assumed, for good reason, that there was no way that we would understand her problems; she knew also that there was nothing that we could or would do to relieve her lacerating misery.
"Oh God, doctor," she said quietly, "I was hoping it was cancer."
Would a woman prefering to have cancer over a child not be considered desperate? If she is not offered any other solution to her situation but abortion, is that not being victimized?Posted by: Heather M at June 3, 2010 9:24 AM
Rachel, I am as pro-life as you can get. But I cannot condone harassment and picketing.
Mary Rose, I understand the difference between "peaceful" picketing, and harassment. But when I mention anger, I'm not just talking about pro-lifers, I'm talking about pro-aborts who only see your "peaceful protests" as fuel to the fire.
Jill, see, this "good cop/bad cop" isn't getting anywhere. See Rachel's post above.
Comparing today's "peaceful protests" and picketing to Dr. King's marches is ludicrous. Do none of you take into account the age we live in? We live in a digital age. We live in a world full of media that doesn't sleep. The tactics have changed.
If we're talking WAR, please keep in mind that the Iraq war is different from World War II. World War II was different from World War I. Weapons change. Tactics change. You have to adjust.
Praxedes, when you said: "I just don't see how catering to prolifers' narcissism is going to help our movement" I'm not sure if you meant pro-aborts' narcissism, or our own narcissism. Either way, I am asking all of you to examine your posts and see how dripping with pride and anger and hatred they are.
If you go to a pro-abortion blog, they are just as angry as we are. They call us names, they hate, they're ANGRY. And we are here, saying we should picket people's homes and that this is a war and we should approach them with guns blazing. How misguided can you be?
This isn't about good cop/bad cop. If you claim to be Christian, many of you, then how do you think Christ would react to your pride and your posturing? If I am not mistaken, Christ's power was in his humility and his love.
We have to find a way to unify. We are already divided. If you cannot see that, if you REFUSE to see that, and you REFUSE to change your approach, then we will never get anywhere.
I will not give up on the pro-life cause, not ever. But I will continue to urge people to re-examine their tactics. What you are doing is viewing these people--who are human beings--as subhuman. You accuse pro-aborts of doing that do the unborn, which they do. But you do it to pro-aborts. They are PEOPLE. And, again, according to Christ, aren't we ALL sinners? Who are any of us to put ourselves on a pedestal? The rights of the unborn are crucial. It is worth fighting for. But we don't have to fight with hatred. None of us do. We don't need "bad cops." We need to make those who disagree with us understand. You are never going to make them understand with this kind of behavior.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 9:25 AM
What's different about people quoting scripture to justify their ill behavior from radical Muslims quoting the Koran to justify their murder and chanting God is Great as they slice through the neck of innocent people? It's all bogus, pius exclusivity... that is, believing what we believe is absolutely more true than what someone else believes. You wonder why Shias will kill Sunnis claiming they're infidels and not true Muslims. But, look at a "true" Catholic's views of Protestants or listen to "true" Baptists talk of Methodists or Presbyterians. Even listen to PCA's talk about UP'ers. The extent to which religion is waved around in an attempt to control and manipulate people is astounding.
The extent to which people will go to harass and intimidate others in the name of justice, love, and compassion is a clear indication of what is really going on in their mottled brains.
Reading posts here by religious zealots is not the least bit enlightening and mostly just proves the point I make above as well as making clear one's own ignorance.
A young boy was recently burned, by accident, at a fire while camping with friends. A missionary visiting the family's church told the mother that this must have been the result of some unresolved sin and was God's punishment.
So symptomatic of irrational, quack mentality of the thoughtless, "I'm right and you're wrong" religions... so many organized religions. This kind of mentality is enough to make one want to vomit.
Don't wave your scripture verses or Koran verses or any religious book's verses around in front of me as justification for un-civil behavior. If I don't believe the way you do or hold your holy books in the same esteem as you, those verses have no standing as justification for anything you do. And just yelling louder won't make me hear you any better.
Hipocrisy!Posted by: Jalaybee at June 3, 2010 9:45 AM
MaryLee, 9:25a: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you've never stood on a pro-life picket line and heard the positive comments. And you've apparently not read any of the numerous, numerous conversion stories of people who were converted to pro-life because they saw the photos.
You don't like the signs and the pro-life activism, which is fine. Lots of people don't. But it is simply erroneous to dismiss them by saying they don't work.
And the real winners when we don't show the truth about abortion are the abortionists and abortion industry.
Finally, on the topic of pickets at the homes of abortionists, even the Bible condones outting people when they don't repent. Matthew 18... good cop followed by bad cop, so to speak.Posted by: Jill Stanek at June 3, 2010 9:57 AM
I'm not quite sure I understand your post. The debate to me seems to be in-house; that is, Christians discussing with other Christians whether or not such a protest is acceptable behavior. Thus, everyone involved in the debate already assumes the truth of the bible.
"look at a "true" Catholic's views of Protestants"
I'm also not sure what this means.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at June 3, 2010 9:59 AM
Mods, sorry about the double post, please delete the second one.Posted by: Heather M at June 3, 2010 10:03 AM
Jill, first, please know that I love your blog, and I love the work that you do.
I am not saying that there aren't a few individuals who change their minds. But as a former pro-abort, I know what I'm talking about. The majority of those in the pro-abortion movement are not only unlikely to change their minds, but dig in their heels further.
And to use scripture as a justification is a huge, huge problem. I'm as pro-life as you can get. But when you spout scripture to me, I just roll my eyes. I don't care what it says in the Bible. It isn't convincing. It makes pro-lifers sound like insane, religious zealots. And, as we found in the Nancy Pelosi article, pro-aborts manipulate scripture, too.
I am not saying you shouldn't practice your faith, or that your faith shouldn't inform your actions. But most pro-aborts find pro-lifers to be religious extremists. This thread is proof that we give them every reason to think that.
But then, my suggestions will fall on deaf ears and nobody's hearts will really be changed. We'll just keep going around in circles.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 10:05 AM
And Bobby....I'm a poster here, a vehement pro-lifer, and I am not a Christian.
See, it's this kind of thinking that....grrrrrr
*PULLS HAIR*Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 10:10 AM
I guess I was referring to those posts which use any sort of specific argumentation from Christianity to put their point forward. I haven't read through all the posts so I may have missed something, but it seems to me that the only posts that do this are either addressed to other Christians or put forth in a general sense, not to a specific pro-choicer who does not believe in the bible.
It is difficult to be accurate in addressing a post like the one above because it is so vague and common, so I apologize if there was any confusion.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at June 3, 2010 10:23 AM
Hi Bobby! I was, by no means, angry in my post, just frustrated....it's hard to tell inflection, though, isn't it?
What it seems this thread is about....An abortionist's wife was picketed/accosted at her home, and she came after them with a lawn mower. We are wondering if it's necessary or wise or fair game to picket people's homes. Because many posters here are Christian, the overtones are overtly Christian, so scripture is quoted. I don't believe it's necessarily a religious question at all. It's more a legal question, as well as a question of plain old common sense.
Because abortion is such a heated subject, and people on both sides of the debate are extremely passionate, lines become blurred.
We say that the abortionist is killing the unborn, and because this is horrific, then we have the right to picket him, even at his home.
I disagree with these tactics..
Abortion is legal. I should hope that abortion would be unthinkable, but as it is, RIGHT NOW, abortion is legal. So picketing someone at their home for practicing something that is considered within the bounds of the law isn't really going to help our cause.
I'm not saying abortion SHOULD be legal, and that we should keep things status quo. But it IS legal, and so picketing someone's home is a cheap shot. And that kind of behavior will only provoke people who support abortion to do the same to us. If one of our pro-life leaders was accosted at his or her home, we would talk about how hateful that kind of action is, and how our space was being invaded.
I keep saying this is like a chess match. When you play chess, if you're a GOOD player, you are thinking about what your opponent will do, not just for a next move, but four or five moves ahead.
We cannot let our emotions control us. We have to be aware of the consequences of our actions, how they can be held against us, and perhaps find new ways, better ways, to change hearts. I don't want to BULLY someone into believing what I believe. I don't want to force everyone to think the way I do. Because it can't be done. That will cause a huge backlash. But if we can PERSUADE people, using logic, intellect, compassion....then whatever change is made in their hearts is likely to be permanent.
"Honestly, at the time I did not believe that the abortion procedure was a killing. Does that get me off the hook?"
Posted by: Row1 at June 2, 2010 10:12 PM
I believe so Row1. When Jesus was dying on the cross he said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."Posted by: truthseeker at June 3, 2010 10:36 AM
To all the squeamish pro-lifers and pro-aborts on this
thread, if you don't like picketing ~ don't picket!
But please do more than pontificate, while nearly 4 thousand kids
a day are being dismembered and thrown in dumpsters or
sold for body parts.
Personhood Now!Posted by: Leslie Hanks at June 3, 2010 11:09 AM
It's great that you are a non-Christian who stands up for LIFE! We need more people like you.
Unfortunately, some people can't be persuaded by logic , intellect and compassion (as you were) You certainly must realize that pro-lifers do not advocate violence or illegal activity (illegal being the operative word) to get pro-choicers to change their minds.
We aren't all pro-life, wacko, Christian-zealot, extremists (even when we quote scripture, which is second nature to many of us, as you probably noticed). Should we Christians have to change who we are to accommodate stubborn, closed minded pro-aborts? We are the ones in the right, as pro-lifers, after all.
I hope that makes sense!Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2010 11:11 AM
So we should go hide behind the internet and let people go about their daily life without the inconvenience of seeing the people with whom they disagree?
Sorry, but I can't get behind that.Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 11:15 AM
Perhaps I'm missing something, but, does anyone see this homeowner going wild with the lawn mower? Looks a lot like someone mowing her lawn till she gets fedup with the picketers. Sounds more like wild exageration and editorializing by the author to me.Posted by: Jalaybee at June 3, 2010 11:15 AM
I'm not saying you have to change who you are. I'm saying that you might have to change your tactics. You claim that your tactics are working. They're not really working, not nearly as much as you think.
Mary Rose, I'm not asking anyone to HIDE behind anything. I'm merely asking that you examine your approach and figure out how it can be used against you. I'm not telling everyone NOT to be religious. You're putting words in my mouth. You're going to extremes. I am not saying we have to grovel to them or try to please them. I would never say that. But it's like all of you are so against trying a different approach. If your tactics are so successful, then why are we even having this debate? These kinds of actions are NOT fruitful.
Remember, they see US as the enemy. They see US as subhuman. They see US as insane. In order to change the world, we have to change how we view the world, and how we treat the world. If our message is swathed in anger, hatred, stubbornness, and pride, then their message will be swathed in anger, hatred, stubbornness, and pride.
Why are you so averse to trying something new, opening doors to new voices, new approaches? This kind of stubbornness is going to hurt all of us in the end.
Even my cat knows sometimes you have to try new angles. When he doesn't get the result he wants, he tries something new.
I guess none of you understand what I'm saying. That's unfortunate. I still respect all of you and believe in this cause.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 11:25 AM
"And Dr. Nadal. How would you like it if those in the pro-choice movement picketed your church. Rather than signs, we could carry coathangers. BTW, some years back, in my area, a Jewish doctor was picketed at his home. There was lots of Christian iconography used and taunts of how he was going to burn in hell. Nice to know that because it's a "war," you're on board with this kind of thing."
20 years ago, homosexual activist groups waged all-out war against my Church, targeting my Cardinal, disrupting his every Sunday Mass with protests for years. Finally, 5,000 gay activists, led by ACT-UP descended on St. Patrick's Cathedral, many throwing condoms all around the Church and one desecrating the Eucharist. I wrote a 4 part series, well documented with NY Times links, entitled: Of Cardinals, Cathedrals, Condoms, and Cretins:
So I believe that a bunch of pro-aborts standing outside our churches with hangars would be a giant step up in civility from this political coalition of gays and feminists who support each other's causes.
Finally, while I've already stated that it isn't my cup of tea, I'm called to witness the science, natural law and theology in writing and public speaking, I do believe that the gay community has set the bar for political discourse right down on the ground. We won't stoop so low, and restrict our actions to those that are legal. moral, and ethical. We've set the bar back where it belongs.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 3, 2010 11:36 AM
Janet, thanks for your message.
"Unfortunately, some people can't be persuaded by logic , intellect and compassion (as you were) You certainly must realize that pro-lifers do not advocate violence or illegal activity (illegal being the operative word) to get pro-choicers to change their minds."
This isn't true. Most pro-aborts that I've met are intelligent and educated people. They respond to civil and calm debate, they respond to facts. Yes, there are some who are emotional and unbalanced, but, to be sure, most of them would prefer we approach them with reason, logic, and facts. Not only have I come to this conclusion in my research, but in my personal life. My friends who believe in abortion rights are not evil people. They work hard. They love their mom and dad. They read books.
My two friends who are in the process of "converting" to the pro-life cause are put-off by the overt religious tactics, the idea that we need to approach them as enemies.
"We aren't all pro-life, wacko, Christian-zealot, extremists (even when we quote scripture, which is second nature to many of us, as you probably noticed). Should we Christians have to change who we are to accommodate stubborn, closed minded pro-aborts? We are the ones in the right, as pro-lifers, after all."
But they believe THEY are the ones in the right. And quoting scripture--second nature or not--is only hurting your cause, not helping. I am not asking you to deny your faith. I am asking for you to understand your opponent. Why would we speak Farsi to a Frenchman? We wouldn't. But remember that your scripture passages are not viewed as proof of anything....and scripture can be manipulated to suit the pro-abortion cause as well.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 11:46 AM
"I guess none of you understand what I'm saying. That's unfortunate. I still respect all of you and believe in this cause."
Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 11:25 AM
I think we understand what you are saying. But what proof do you have that our tactics are not working? The numbers of Americans who consider themselves pro-life is on the rise.
We aren't trying to change the world, as you mentioned. Abortion first. The respect for life affects every other issue eventually.Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2010 11:53 AM
Dr. Nadal, what do you mean when you say the gay community has "set the bar for political discourse right down on the ground"...?
I don't understand the prejudice against the gay community. Since I am in the arts, I spend most of my time with the gay community. They are funny, talented, gifted, decent, generous, and compassionate. My best friend, who is gay and pro-life, is the most brilliant human being I've ever known, and I wish more were like him.
I would not ask that you support gay marriage or march in a gay pride parade. But the prejudice against the gay community is a terrible blemish on the face of the pro-life cause.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 11:54 AM
That's how I feel when I read that babies are being burned in their mother's womb or ladies dying because abortionists are more concerned about making money than they are the health of the mom or baby. Sometimes I feel anger but sometimes I feel nauseated. Maybe you don't agree with what these picketers are doing but I venture to guess if it were your life they were attempting to rescue you would have a more charitable outlook on what they do. I think that as long as these demonstations are being done decently and in order no hollering or screaming that it's a good thing. Abortionists are citizens but so are picketers and hopefully soon the unborn will be citizens as well. Remember the picketer wasn't even on the sidewalk when she made an obsene gesture at him. I'm really surprised she didn't hit him hopefully they have been trained to avoid violence and call the police when their rights are being violated.
Those of you who advocate loving people into the kingdom that is scriptural but there is also scripture that says some you have to pull out of the fire. I think that means some are so deep in sin you have to make sure they understand the seriousness of what they are doing. And those of you who disagree with non-violent tactics that Christians implement that is your right but as a Christian it's also my right to do what I think is right as long as it is within the law. Maybe God has raised up these individuals who picket for such a time as this. My favorite way to show my support are pro-life marches. I imagine that individuals staying within the context of the law and advocating for life does cause the abortionists some degree of discomfort but that's their choice because they chose to kill babies. And we do live in an age of communication but when protests are being done decently and in order this is also an effective stategy.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 3, 2010 11:57 AM
"But what proof do you have that our tactics are not working? The numbers of Americans who consider themselves pro-life is on the rise."
The number of those who call themselves pro-life are on the rise....but not because of these tactics. It's changing because of technology and education, because of advances in pre-natal care and the understanding of the development of the child.
As a former pro-abort, I can safely tell you that constantly picketing and quoting scripture makes pro-aborts less likely to even LISTEN to you, let alone take you seriously.
That's all I'm saying. This is a serious issue.
At the very least, I would suggest that you not picket at someone's home. That is harassment. It is not fair game.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 11:59 AM
As someone who is in the process of changing my beliefs from pro-choice to pro-life I can say with certainty that spectacles like this do absolutely nothing to convert people from pro-choice to pro-life.
There are a handful of posters on this board whose input is responsible for me changing my mind about abortion. Thanks, guys! These are definitely not posters who quote scripture, advocate violence, or use personal insults. Yes, I have seen all of those things here, just within the past few weeks. I am often turned off by behaviors I have witnessed here, and it is something I struggle with while I think about my next step in the field of abortion. It is also something that I struggle with as I return to church, which I am also in the process of doing right now.Posted by: len at June 3, 2010 12:00 PM
We're talking about activism and the activist wings of two communities. Read the articles I linked to in order to understand the full context for my statement. I'm sure that many of the 5,000 who descended on my Cathedral were funny, gifted and talented people. But they were beastly intolerant of anyone who disagreed with their world view and desecrated a house of worship.
The same for many abortionists. I'm sure many of them are otherwise great members of the community.
The four articles show the depth of depravity, and the silence from the wider gay community regarding what was done on a weekly basis for years.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 3, 2010 12:13 PM
Dr. Nadal, obviously, that behavior, the desecration of a holy sanctuary is absolutely despicable.
But it is NOT representative of the gay community, only a fringe of extremists. The pro-life community has them, the pro-abortion community has them, animals rights activists have them, and so on. As we would urge those who consider all pro-lifers "terrorists" because of Scott Roeder to not jump to conclusions or generalizations, I would urge all pro-lifers to do the same with the gay community.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 12:18 PM
Would most pro-lifers here agree that this is a question of prudence and NOT morality? In other words, there is no compromise when it comes to abortion, but we pro-lifers can have legitimate disagreements amongst ourselves about the best way to end abortion, and this discussion is on a completely different level than discussions with pro-choicers. At least that's the way I see this debate.Posted by: Bobby Bambino at June 3, 2010 12:21 PM
Bobby---EXACTLY! Prudence!Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 12:22 PM
I appreciate your honesty. Thank you for taking each commenter as not representative of the whole movement. We all have our own thoughts and beliefs about certain aspects but as you can see by this thread....different ways of going about it as prolifers. :)
Personally, I don't know that I would go to an abortionists home to confront. I would go to pray though. I think it is realistic to assume that if you are going to kill children and wound women for a living this just MIGHT happen.
I do not picket abortion clinics. I do not yell and scream at women going into the clinic. I go to pray.
I will be praying for you as you return to church.Posted by: carla at June 3, 2010 12:39 PM
Scott Roeder is a fringe extremist. We condemn his murderous tactics without qualification.
5,000 people descending on a Cathedral is not the lunatic fringe. It's a movement. And that political block always throws in with the feminist block in mutual support.
So to get back on point, we are in a war for human civilization and human lives. As with all armies, there are all manner of specialized forces and operations that are meant to strike at the opposition everywhere and at once.
Bobby Bambino raises a valid issue of prudential judgment. If hounding these guys out of performing abortions is part of what it takes to bring this down, then so be it.
I will say this. These doctors are the bottom of the barrel as clinicians go. In getting them out of performing abortions, there needs to be a means of rehabilitating them as physicians, a strictly confidential program run by physicians to retrain these people and restore them to their dignity.Posted by: Gerard Nadal at June 3, 2010 12:50 PM
Yes, these doctors ARE the bottom of the barrel. But hounding them is NOT going to bring them down, nor is it going to change the opinions of those who oppose us. They see US as extremists.
And 5,000 gay people IS a fringe. There are millions. I know that there are religious fundamentalists.....I also know not all religious people are fundamentalists. There are thousands of fundamentalists, but millions of Christians.
I know this angers you, Dr. Nadal---and everyone here. Abortion angers me too. It is putrid. It is unfair. It is bloody and it is inexcusable. But it will do us more good not to let our emotions and our prejudices and our anger guide us. We have to find other ways.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:07 PM
An example, Dr. Nadal:
PETA is a fringe of extremists. There are a LOT of members of PETA. But they are considered a fringe of extremists, even by most vegetarians. I don't know any vegetarian that doesn't think the people at PETA are insane. I do.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:10 PM
I find it ironic that you accuse me of putting words in your mouth while completely veering from the subject of which I spoke.
Here's the thing. You seem to be anti-picketing, anti-public prayer, and anti-graphic images (all of these, of course, being as they relate to abortion). If I'm incorrect please correct me, but that's what I'm getting. You say they're ineffective and we should switch our approach to being more in line with the technology of the time.
I say, we are using the technology of the time. And, quite frankly, it's equally easy to abuse. Why should we stop using other tactics? Especially when yes, they DO have an impact. Look at Abby Johnson. They may not always be the most convincing, but yes, I believe that peaceful picketing absolutely has a place. And hey, if that bothers you, don't join in. Put your support towards groups that use the media in the ways you see as most effective.
But please don't imply that I am closed minded because I choose to continue to hold prayer vigils outside of Planned Parenthood. To those who are so abrasive that they see a prayer vigil, or a peaceful and unobtrusive picket line, and they become angry or offended, the only way that I can approach them is through prayer and humility. Talking it over with a bottle of wine and without prayer & humility is more likely to result in more aggression and more frustration.
This isn't to say that I'm not open to other options. I support CPCs, I speak at my church, and I try to be an active member of the pro-life community in my area as much as possible. I make a point of using such tools as the internet to educate myself and to talk to people in as honest a tone as I am able. That said, I'm not going to stop using my physical presence to remind people that abortion kills.Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 1:17 PM
Mary Rose, I didn't mean to anger you, or anyone on this board. However, my problem with picketing is that being a former pro-abort, I know how it's viewed by the pro-abortion community. I'm not trying to SILENCE you, I'm trying to HELP you.
I believe people should be able to exercise their religion freely. I think Christians are treated with horrible bigotry in the media. It's ridiculous that you can't mention Christ, but all other religions are upheld by the media. I am on your side.
However, I am merely suggesting that these tactics are considered off-putting and may even do more harm than good.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:26 PM
Mary Rose, I didn't mean to anger you, or anyone on this board. However, my problem with picketing is that being a former pro-abort, I know how it's viewed by the pro-abortion community. I'm not trying to SILENCE you. I'm trying to HELP you.
I believe people should be able to exercise their religion freely. I think Christians are treated with horrible bigotry in the media. It's ridiculous that you can't mention Christ, but all other religions are upheld by the media. I am on your side.
However, I am merely suggesting that these tactics are considered off-putting and may even do more harm than good.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:27 PM
I'm not angry. I just don't agree.
I think that those who consider the tactics I employ are going to consider just about any tactics off-putting so I'm going to continue along my way and I'll keep my eyes and ears open to other additional approaches.
Sorry if I came off as more bristly than I feel. Sometimes it's so hard to imbue my writing with the proper tone!Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 1:29 PM
As for Abby Johnson, she was converted when she witnessed the baby trying to escape his death. Yes, she spoke with some protesters, but it was her witness of the child trying to live that ultimately convinced her.
If we are so full of pride that the idea of changing tactics makes us angry, then we are never going to see any progress.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:30 PM
Again, not angry.
But Abby Johnson has stated that she got a card from a protester which she kept in her office. She has joined the lines of those picketing. She had felt something positive from the picketers. That's my point. That sometimes, seeing those people being kind while they try to convert hearts is the first step to opening up to the pro-life approach.
I'm not arguing about whether it hardens some hearts. I get that it does. I'm just saying that often times, those individuals who find themselves bothered by peaceful and relatively unobtrusive (not loud or aggressive) picketers are likely to be bothered by anything that doesn't agree with them.Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 1:38 PM
Here's a question: What's a better tactic?Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 1:39 PM
I would not dispute that there are some who might change their minds. But it isn't as many as you'd like, and it turns MORE people away. So you gain one convert, and you lose 50.
I've given my suggestions, but they are rebutted. I've said this again and again. The pro-life movement is far more vast and diverse than people understand. All of us need to open our hearts and minds. We need to find out what fuels the pro-abortion movement. I am too tired to repeat my posts. Obviously, nobody is open to trying something new, to opening their hearts to non-traditional pro-lifers (not merely TOLERATING them).
Also my blood sugar is perilously low right now so I'mma fix that.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 1:45 PM
So I have re-read your posts, and the most I'm getting from you is that you want to approach pro-aborts from a more 'civilized' and tactful place. And that's fine. I have abortion advocate friends who I speak to about abortion in honest and respectful discussions. They sometimes get a little heated, admittedly, but we always make a point to walk away without ill feelings. That can be brought into picketing, though.
You want us to understand our opponents, and I'm fine with that, but I'm not going to support use of all of their tactics. I don't think you're advocating that I do, though.
So I guess what I'm saying is, none of your approaches are new to me. None of them involve changing my perspective. Except for the part where I abandon some of what I'm doing.
And I have seen the anti-abortion protesters who are honestly off-putting. I have a hard time with them, too. But they're not in the majority by a long-shot. I don't know if you've been to many protests, I'm guessing you haven't, but I think you're drastically underestimating the effects of the protests.
Also, I'd like to know where you think the information gets out? Because my doctor has never had a frank conversation about abortion, about how birth control works, about any of it, even when she was advocating that I get on birth control.
And I don't know a lot of non-pregnant women or even men who are expecting who look into the sites that address pregnancy. It's people talking about it, showing images of it, picketing, etc. who really get the information out. It's people like Fr. Frank Pavone who spread the information about child development. We know that Planned Parenthood would rather keep the knowledge suppressed.
I guess I'm wondering, I don't see any suggestions that are new or unused by the anti-abortion movement. What is new? I mean, you want us to change but you don't have a good solution. I like your general approach, but I guess I don't see a whole lot of specifics except to stop the picketing and prayer vigils, and I just don't think that's the way to go. I think you're allowing your personal experience to drastically affect how you see picketing and how effective you believe it is.
Please understand that I mean no disrespect.
I know how it can be when your blood sugar's low. Eat, replenish, feel better!Posted by: MaryRose at June 3, 2010 2:12 PM
"As a former pro-abort, I can safely tell you that constantly picketing and quoting scripture makes pro-aborts less likely to even LISTEN to you, let alone take you seriously."
MaryLee @ 11:59 AM
Obviously you did. Why were you able to see through the picketing and scripture and become pro-life?Posted by: Janet at June 3, 2010 2:16 PM
If I was his neighbor I would be out there with the protesters.Posted by: Kristen at June 3, 2010 2:21 PM
Same here, but I'd move out first.
Great posts MaryLee. I found myself nodding in agreement with with everything you said.
Just out of curiosity, how does this group choose who to picket? This blog showed them at the home of an abortionist, but looking at their site, they also picket others. For example, an architect who donates to PP??? What? Millions of people give money to PP, how do you decide which ones to target?
I just do not understand how this is considered noble. Any 2-year-old can scream at people he doesn't like; it is not like it takes courage or dedication. If they were simply holding up signs of aborted babies quietly, that would be one story, but the whole yelling and taunting thing is just weird. Also, when arguing with a pro-abortion man, the protestor asked if he was "a homo" and then showed up at the pro-abortion man's own house to protest. Classy. I could see middle school boys doing that, but a grown man? Really?
In my opinion, it is much more difficult to volunteer at a CPC. It is very emotionally difficult--I volunteer in a very poor area and hear horrible stories of poverty, domestic violence, and murder. Screaming at these girls/women, their male partners, and their parents doesn't really work. Therefore, I have to use weak girly tactics like listening, compassion, and charity.
I don't support killing of any kind, so should I spend my time yelling outside the homes of American soldiers? Or everyone who eats meat? Do you have anything that says "Made in China"? If so, you are financially supporting the genocide in Darfur, as the Chinese supply them with financial assistance. Oh, wait we ALL (as Americans) support genocide in Equatorial Guinea (to give just one example) with our tax dollars. Before you say you don't CHOOSE to support the massacre of innocent people in Equatorial Guinea, I once met a Christian who quit her job and became homeless so she would not have any tax dollars to pay for genocide or war. That is always an option, isn't it?Posted by: Adair at June 3, 2010 2:36 PM
Adair, thank you for what you do at the CPC.Posted by: Adam Briggs at June 3, 2010 2:52 PM
"I once met a Christian who quit her job and became homeless so she would not have any tax dollars to pay for genocide or war. That is always an option, isn't it?"
Posted by: Adair at June 3, 2010 2:36 PM
Not very practical.
* * * *
The architect you mentioned was probably more than a donor - probably worked on a PP project. I agree with you that one can picket without taunting and name-calling.
Janet, I became pro-life because of research, and because of technology. It was NOT protests or picketing that converted me, not at all. As I've said before, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Mary Rose: If I'm given some time, I could probably come up with an actual plan. But today I wasted way too much time at my day job on the board! Yikes! And also, most of the time that I'm not on here, I'm either performing, writing, and running around being a mother.
Blood sugar all better now. Yay.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 7:31 PM
It might interest you to know that PART of my conversion to the pro-life cause was helped along by my former professor, Dr. Peter Kreeft.
Though I am agnostic and don't really subscribe to any one religion, his pro-life arguments were damn near irrefutable. Many who consider themselves pro "choice" are highly intellectual. It's as if they want you to prove them wrong.
It's tough to admit when you're wrong. Most people can't even admit when they've run a stop sign, let alone been complicit in the slaughter of millions of human beings.
But I do believe in the power of logic, and technology, and reason. That, combined having experienced a crisis pregnancy, almost miscarrying my child, and then watching her grow are what changed my mind. It was difficult, truly, to admit that my beliefs were wrong. But I did. Because the unborn are valuable and deserve to be protected.
However, the pro-life community must also admit when they need to change their play-by-play. It would be wise to do so.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 7:39 PM
This is what I think. Pro-aborts use every aspect of the law that is available to them. They will use fear and just about any other tactic to support their cause. They use tax payers monies to facillitate the killing of the innocent. This is what I'm for, anything that does not cause bodily damage to another or vulgar or deliberately offensive speech or anything that I would not want to be subjected to if I were wrong. Anything else that is legal and meets these guidelines I'm for. If the thought of 52 million children being killed does not bother them if they are oblivious to the consequences of their actions than yes within the context of what's legal we as citizens have a right to do. And you seem like your goal is to bring pro-aborts to the pro-life side that is not my goal. My goal is for children to be safe in their mother's wombs. If someone has to have their ego continually soothed, if their own conscience does not tell them abortion is wrong than they can sure stay where there at. I believe in making an effort to educate people politely about what the pro-aborts really support then it is up to them to decide what they want to do. They are not at the heart of this debate, unborn children are. Those are my thoughts. Glad to hear you are feeling better! And we're not losing we're winning 32 states working on getting unborns personhood status is a sign of victory. I'm not a stategist but I would think when one is winning is not the time to change strategy. And it's not good to be four steps of an opponent when there wrong because you deny them the right to appear as foolish as they sound.
"And to use scripture as a justification is a huge, huge problem. I'm as pro-life as you can get. But when you spout scripture to me, I just roll my eyes. I don't care what it says in the Bible. It isn't convincing. It makes pro-lifers sound like insane, religious zealots. And, as we found in the Nancy Pelosi article, pro-aborts manipulate scripture, too."
Although I don't personally roll my eyes, I agree that Biblical reasons against abortion aren't convincing to people who aren't Christians - and probably aren't convincing to some Christians. If, say, Scientologists told me something was wrong because Xenu thought it was wrong, I'd be like, "Yeah, okay...so?" Don't believe in Xenu. Don't care if Xenu thinks everything I do is wrong. Don't care if Xenu has declared me the anti-Xenu. As far as I'm concerned, there is no Xenu.
We have indisputable science on our side. While religious differences can be chalked up to a matter of opinion and belief, you can't deny basic human biology without looking either ignorant or nuts. Scientifically, we know what human means and we know when life begins. We know about DNA and fetal heartbeats. Why stick with one "weapon" when there's another one more likely to win us the war?
It took me about twenty seconds to remember who Abby Johnson is. Must be more tired than I think.Posted by: Marauder at June 3, 2010 8:52 PM
Myrtle. You said:
"And you seem like your goal is to bring pro-aborts to the pro-life side that is not my goal. My goal is for children to be safe in their mother's wombs. If someone has to have their ego continually soothed, if their own conscience does not tell them abortion is wrong than they can sure stay where there at."
Our goal SHOULD be to change the hearts of those who support abortion. Absolutely we need to help save the lives of the unborn, but what good is it if people still believe they should kill them? I would never suggest that we sit back and twiddle our thumbs. But if more people understand what a gruesome thing abortion is, what an injustice it is, how it hurts everyone....then we will have no need for it anymore. It is possible to change hearts and minds. We have to think beyond tactics that are meant to frighten or bully people out of aborting their children. As some of you have said, this is a war. What good is it, then, to win a battle, if you've lost the war? then we might have won a battle, but we will have lost the war.
Marauder, that was a really great post.Posted by: MaryLee at June 3, 2010 9:14 PM
I am one of the pro-picket pro-lifers.
I have been reading through these posts and have noticed many examples of really bad behavior by prolife picketers on some of the “anti-picket” posts. It is true. Some rookie picketers (who probably don’t realize what they are doing) do some really bad stuff from time to time. Some places it is really bad and goes unchecked. This poor and imprudent behavior by some picketers makes every pro-lifer look bad and it needs to stop. Fortunately, bad behavior by prolifers is uncommon.
Personally, I believe MOST of the stories are exaggerated rumor that gets told over and over in the minds of pro-aborts. They are good at creating believable propaganda. If it were as rampant as people say one should easily be able to get loads of video footage of the outrageous pro-life behavior.
Look at the video Jill posted. Do you see imprudent behavior by the picketers there? No, you don’t see bad behavior at all. They are quiet, calm, witnesses. If a neighbor or anyone wanted to talk to them I’m sure they could have a fine and rational conversation.
Pro-life pickets are not yelling and name calling. It is not shouting slogans and bible quotes. It is not running around and getting in peoples faces. It is not even confrontational. It is certainly not a riot where people throw garbage cans through widows and require the police to show up with tear gas. It is not a bunch of silly stunts designed to get on TV. It is just a picket. It is just people standing around acting as a prayerful silent witness to the existence of our countries bloody abortion industry.
Pickets create social tension and are effective in their own limited way.
I might also add that there are places and times when even a good well behaved picket would not be prudent. Such as at an abortuary when sidewalk councilors are present. The off putting signs make frightened women less easy to approach. But if there is no sidewalk councilor available a simple picket is better than nothing and it sometimes scores in a win all by itself.
We are all in this together. Let us not undercut one another.Posted by: Tommy R at June 3, 2010 10:02 PM
Our priorities are just not the same. I think anything and everything that can be done legally to bring attention to what an abortionist is doing is good. Anything that involves legal consequences for his or her actions. A person who gets up every morning to go and legally kill children is probably very goal oriented. They know what their agenda is for that day and they operate within the law if pro-lifers who are probably just as goal oriented but are using their energy to do good as long as they operate within the perimeters of the law and treat the abortionist the way they would want to be treated if they were deluded, I see nothing wrong with that. I do understand why some people don't agree with it because when I first seen the video my first thought was that it was such an invasion of privacy but when I remembered what the abortionist done for a living I figured if he was discomforted legally, I could see the good in that.
MaryLee: Thanks. :DPosted by: Marauder at June 4, 2010 6:31 AM
Kristen (2:21 PM):
If I were his neighbor, I would be out there with the protesters.
Great point, Kristen.
How would any of us feel if an official of NAMB__ (you can fill in the remaining two letters) were to move in next door?
What if you had sons? How secure would you feel knowing he was there and could you be sure the types of friends that would visit were not "checking out" your sons? Disgusting, isn't it?! Doesn't the rest of the neighborhood and community at large have an interest in knowing the kind of scum living nearby?
And to those who say that abortion is a legal right ergo we should not bother the abortionist at his home, it is also a legal right for NAMB__ officials to do what they do. "Legal" is one thing, what we know is right is another.Posted by: Jerry at June 4, 2010 7:08 AM
As someone who doesn't isolate myself with Christians or conservatives and hears the other side, and the neutral people who aren't that interested in abortion--I can tell you picketing a doctors' home makes you look REALLY bad. It makes you look like scary extremists and pro-choicers the moderates. Saying, "Look, we show up at these people's houses and harass them!" will not earn you a single new vote or changed mind. Ever. It's about as effective as shooting doctors, and it makes people not want to associate with you. I hear them talk, so I know.
And let's face it, you can't ban abortion without the votes. Your abortion bans keep getting shot down in every state by big margins (55-45 South Dakota, 73-27 Colorado). Extremism NEVER wins at the polls. These tactics backfire.Posted by: Ashley Herzog at June 4, 2010 8:09 AM
MaryLee, I'm another agnostic fan of Kreeft! He's pretty cool.Posted by: Alexandra at June 4, 2010 9:14 AM
If their picketing legally, no harrassment no screaming I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Would I do that no. I wouldn't picket anywhere because I try my best to avoid any situations that could escalate into violence because I have a son who depends on me and he has to be first. Having said that hopefully when they do picket the homes of these abortions there staying within the context of the law and hopefully have been trained how to avoid conflict. When they picket there attempting to slow down an individual who usually kills daily. Before they show up for work, babies are alive when there done babies not popularity have died. If an individual has the opportunity to do this and can legally and respectly I would say it's way past time to do just that. And I completely understand people thinking this is this mans' home and it should be respected I get that and if he weren't killing babies I would agree with that. But this is someone who disrespects daily the natural habitat of an unborn human and does it comfortably I think he deserves completely to be be slowed down anytime and everytime he can be. Everytime.
11:43 post by me Everytime as long as it's within a legal and respectful context. Before they show up for work is referring to an abortionist and the following sentence is referring to the picketers. Wouldn't want the picketeers to be confused with those who take innocent life and get paid for it.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 4, 2010 11:53 AM
"As someone who doesn't isolate myself with Christians or conservatives and hears the other side, and the neutral people who aren't that interested in abortion....."
That's quite the assumption you're making. You've made your point, but perhaps you are the the one who is isolated.
* * * *
"Janet, I became pro-life because of research, and because of technology. It was NOT protests or picketing that converted me, not at all. As I've said before, even a broken clock is right twice a day."
You seem to think that what worked for you will work for all converts (PC - PL). Sometimes hearts are changed, sometimes minds are changed. Why is this so hard to understand? Not all people are even capable of understanding an intellectual argument against abortion and they need to be reached a different way.
Ashley, I understand what you are saying, but could you ever see a circumstance in which you would picket someone's home? In my example I asked if it were the home of a person involved in an organization that promoted man-boy "love". Would you want that creep living next door to you or to your granchildren? If someone were to picket his house can you honestly say that you would not want to participate in that picketing?
You may say that you would not join in the picketing, but would you be so quick to crticise the picketing? Or is it just that when pro-lifers picket that you have a problem?Posted by: Jerry at June 4, 2010 12:22 PM
Janet, I understand the pro-abortion mind because I had one. I know the pro-abortion community. I know what is more likely to change hearts. I'm sorry none of you want to listen to me. It's like you're so averse to conceding that a non-traditional pro-lifer might be right and you might be wrong. If you can't admit when you're wrong, then you are never going to win.
I'm done with this. I feel really bad for all of you. You just keep going in circles. You're all so defensive. I will never waiver from my pro-life views, not ever. I will never stop doing pro-life work. But since none of you are willing to bend a little, and to fix what is broken in your community, then I have little hope that you will be the ones to change hearts. It will be us--the secular pro-life community--who helps you win.
Au revoir, fellow pro-lifers.Posted by: MaryLee at June 4, 2010 2:29 PM
How about you embrace what you love about being prolife and go with that? Do what you can and what you love in the movement. Not all strategies appeal to all people. I didn't know you were waiting for us to admit we are wrong and you are right.
I don't see anything broken in this community when our numbers are growing. I am sorry that you feel our "tactics" aren't working.
We absolutely win, MaryLee.Posted by: carla at June 4, 2010 3:37 PM
It will be us--the secular pro-life community--who helps you win.
I see you believe in keeping it humble MaryLee.
Jesus will help the little children win. Jesus works through all true prolifers, even those who peacefully picket killer's homes, even those who refuse to picket killer's homes, even those who don't acknowledge He is The One behind the prolife movement.
Peace.Posted by: Praxedes at June 4, 2010 4:02 PM
God bless all of you. If I offend anyone by quoting scripture please feel free to let me know. Not that it will change anything but it's still your right to tell me! Again I have to say that you all whether you know it or not have by advocating for the unborn have validated my job as Daniels' mom. My beautiful boy he's 19 but he will always be my baby, who decided when asked to help with the clothes that he was sweepy and proceeded to go lay down. When the clothes were put up he decided it was time to get up! Did you know that when you advocate for the unborn your also making our country a safer place for the disabled and the elderly? All of you have brought healing to my life so that's what I'm praying for all of you as well. Healing, an avalanche of more spiritual and physical healing than you know what to do with. Healing that will follow you when you minister to others as you have ministered to me.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 4, 2010 5:15 PM
God bless you, Myrtle and your precious son, Daniel!!
I love your voice here!!
As I said at the beginning of this debate, I still think protesting at a persons house is a bad idea. I wasn't aware that this was an accepted practice.
Going into a neighborhood where people don't know you or what your intentions are is a bad idea. You are just asking for trouble. It seems to me to be too much of an aggressive move. Having unknown people come into a neighborhood to "protest" puts people at edge (and not just the abortionist).That's not a good thing. Bad things can and will happen.
When you have gone so far as to seek out the personal residence of some abortionist and then show up in front of their house, you don't see a potential here for a serious problem? In this day and age....you don't see a problem with this type of behavior?
I don't think the benefit of such an activity is worth it. I think pro-life leaders should rethink this strategy before something goes terribly wrong with one of these pickets.
I know there is a lot of emotion and gung-ho attitude on here at the moment but please don't respond to me with something to the effect that since I don't support this type of activity, I must support killing babies.
I prefer to do my part in ways other than seeking people out at their homes to picket.Posted by: psalm at June 4, 2010 5:36 PM
Hummm, What would happen if we all took MaryLee’s advice and the entire pro-life community just gave up doing anything that turned off the pro-aborts or fence-sitters?
Perhaps it would be easier to dialog with some…but…maybe not. I’m sure the apathetic world would find some other reason to be turned off. Our use of reason and logic…so old fashioned…a throwback to the middle ages I’m told.
If we stopped all confrontation then we will have to counter this pro-abort argument:
“You don’t believe that abortion is really killing because if you did you would be doing something about it—anti-choice hypocrites!”
And what would we counter this argument with? “Oh, yes it is killing, but we don’t want to offend anybody.” That won’t work. Our walk has to match our talk. If we believe abortion is killing then we have to act like it is killing (without the use of evil means). This MUST include some level of direct physical action and some kind of demonstrative public calling out of the actual perpetrators. Otherwise, all our words are just a chase in the wind.
On the other hand, just using pickets (without all the other great pro-life work going on) is not the answer either.
We need the use of every legitimate tactic wisely to win this war…and we need to coordinate and work together to be the most effective.
Thanks Jill for your website…it is a blessing.
"MaryLee’s advice and the entire pro-life community just gave up doing anything that turned off the pro-aborts or fence-sitters?"
I don't have the time to read all the posts thus I don't know what Mary Lee's advice was but I for one am not advocating such a position. This has less to do with "turning off" pro-aborts as it does have to do with effectiveness,safety, and public image of the pro-life community (yes, it does matter.
"If we stopped all confrontation"
I wouldn't argue that ALL confrontation needs to be stopped. We need not approach this with an all or none mentality.
"This MUST include some level of direct physical action"
I totally agree except I would eliminate picketing of private residences.
Posted by: psalm
at June 4, 2010 6:45 PM
I would be disappointed if there were no secular-pro-lifers. Have you seen secularprolife.org? It's an awesome site. No need to feel sorry for us. We all have to do what we do best - with our God-given talents.
I can see where you might be uncomfortable with the pro-life label, being a new pro-life convert yourself. You'll get used to it.
Do you have any pro-lifers in your social circle?
Does anyone know if mimes ever picket at the abortion clinic? Sometimes a silent witness speaks louder than words.Posted by: myrtle miller at June 4, 2010 10:41 PM
You do all realize that overturning Roe v. Wade would not stop abortions from happening. Picketing a doctor's house is not going to stop him from doing his job. Does anyone bother to truly counsel the women who turn back, to find out why she's chosen to abort? Find out if she has any other options? I read someone complain that the doctors don't give the women all of their options: do you? A woman turning back that one day is not necessarily a success; she may go back another day, or she may have the child despite her likely well-thoughout reasons for choosing to abort (whether she be ill-equipped, living in an unhealthy homelife herself, etc.).
I understand that some of you are compassionate with this, and while I'm pro-choice, I respect your passion for your beliefs and your right to express them.
But some of you on here are nutso and need to reevaluate what you're doing. It's counterproductive and completely unrealistic to believe you can pound your beliefs into someone else's head. Dr. King isn't hiding from his neighbors; he's hiding from you. There are unwanted children who were not aborted, and they need help more than these fetuses.Posted by: beDecent at June 5, 2010 2:19 AM
"There are unwanted children who were not aborted, and they need help more than these fetuses."
You are nutso and need to reevaluate why you think it is more important to help possibly-to-be-neglected born children over certain-to-be-killed unborn children.
Because people are being killed for money, I cannot support your passion for your belief.Posted by: Praxedes at June 5, 2010 5:04 AM
Have you ever heard of Pregnancy Care Centers? Maternity homes? Sidewalk Counseling? Reaching out a hand to someone who is scared and alone and doesn't know what to do with an unplanned pregnancy? Ever heard of adoption?
Unwanted is not a trait of a child, but an attitude of adults. -Randy Alcorn
I do not complain about being told it was just a bunch of cells. It is the truth of my abortion experience. I proclaim the lies of omission of the abortion clinic where I would not have been if abortion were illegal. I should have been told THE TRUTH about the development of my child! I would not have allowed her to be killed!Posted by: carla at June 5, 2010 6:29 AM
"There are unwanted children who were not aborted, and they need help more than these fetuses."
Unwanted children are persons as are fetuses. They both deserve our help and basic human rights.Posted by: psalm at June 5, 2010 11:09 AM
Myrtle, Tommy, et. al,
You have manipulated my words and now you have completely alienated one of your own. You are nasty, close-minded religious zealots. I never said NOT to do anything. I never said to be silent. I never said NOT to offend pro-aborts. I said: FIND NEW TACTICS.
It is not about not offending, it is about using what works. Obviously, none of you want to listen. Talking to you is like talking to my Aunt Joanie who is suffering from dementia. Except you're less reasonable than she is.Posted by: MaryLee at June 5, 2010 12:38 PM
And Janet, I'm not a "new" convert. Your condescending tone is as much a turn off as your scripture passages.
You're "thankful" for secular pro-lifers, and yet here I am, telling you what will help you, and you not only ignore it, but you MAKE FUN OF IT. And it's boards like this, these kinds of conversations, that pro-aborts will also use against us.
It's like me saying "I know where the mines in this minefield are" and you're all saying, "Shut up, we're doing it our own way."Posted by: MaryLee at June 5, 2010 12:42 PM
I wish I had the time to get into this discussion earlier, glad to see the discussion is still ongoing.
Pro life activism has different tactics for different targets. We can compare anti-abortion activities by using an advertising analogy, sometimes a billboard works better than direct mail. It is not always possible to have close, personal contact with those you are trying to counsel or inform. Sometimes you need to reach the masses. Increasing awareness is the key. Not just awareness of the truth of abortion practices and the harm it does to women, but awareness of the locations of the abortion mills and awareness of who the abortionists are.
Does anyone see a problem with using embryonic development signs and/or Silent No More Awareness signs as part of sidewalk counseling support/prayer vigils in front of the abortion clinics or is a vigil or sidewalk counseling more effective without signs?
MaryLee - it would be great to hear any new ideas regarding reaching the hard core pro aborts. You have recommended new tactics. You hint at knowing what the new tactics are. Well, what are they? How do you propose to get more people to "understand what a gruesome thing abortion is, what an injustice it is, how it hurts everyone...."? This is not meant to be an in-your-face challenge, I am really sincerely interested. Much of the pro life outreach needs to be directed at the middle ground supporters of "choice" who claim they are personally opposed to abortion. Trying to convert the hard core, dug in pro-aborts is probably toughest of all, but not impossible. Enough abortionists have reformed to give us hope. Are you sure you know the reasons for those conversions?
For anyone here who is living in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, a new group, Northwest Families for Life, has formed to provide a pro life presence and sidewalk counseling at select abortion mills owned by Vinod Goyal (he has 7 abortion mills in the area). Check out the Northwest Families for Life Facebook group page and this story - http://prolifeaction.org/hotline/2010/represented/
They have also created a Prayer Witness Calendar here: www.brownbearsw.com/freecal/NWF4Life
Speaking of the need to increase awareness, one of the mills in Des Plaines, IL, Forest View Medical Center, is next to an office building and, after the first two weeks of pro life presence, people working in the office building have made the comment: “Wow, I never knew that was an abortion clinic”. These facilities hide in plain sight.
"You are nasty, close-minded religious zealots."
You've been on the defensive against anyone who disagreed with what you believe is the only way. You have sounded like you were ready for a fight all along, especially with those of us who believe in Christ. You sound as if we are all so much less intellectual than yourself. This is fine with me, I prefer to stay simple.
Maybe you need to read through all the posts several times to see who comes of as the most close-minded, mean-spirited and nasty. I personally think everyone here responded in quite mature ways considering how we have all been "talked down to". You definitely have not practiced what you have preached.Posted by: Praxedes at June 5, 2010 1:52 PM
More humility would suit you better. Less name calling would suit you better. You are not the only "former pro-choicer" on this thread, have no final authority on the right or wrong way of activism, and don't speak for pro-choicers universally.
You are the last person on this thread that should be lecturing about condescension when you brazenly make statements like, "It's like me saying "I know where the mines in this minefield are". Really? You KNOW your experience is end-all, be-all of perfected pro-life outreach?
In contrast, I really appreciate Jim Sable's tact with you: He continues to ask what you might have that can benefit the overall discussion. It would benefit you to Get Over Yourself to learn from his example.
At this point, glad I don't have to work with you - and thrilled the people I DO work with remain civil even when we seriously disagree.
"Nasty, closed-minded, religious zealot with dementia"Posted by: JP Prichard at June 5, 2010 1:58 PM
psalm at June 4, 2010 6:45 PM
“I totally agree except I would eliminate picketing of private residences.”
“it does have to do with effectiveness, safety, and public image”
Psalm, you have very valid points. Picketing of private residences approaches the edge of what is prudent and in some cases could very well be a poor choice. Rational dialog with an abortionist is, of course, a far better thing and ought to never be abandoned. We should use all legitimate means. If a picket gets in the way of dialog then by all means call off the dogs. I would say deciding where to picket may better be made by the local prolifers and be assessed on a case by case basis.
This kind of picketing, I think, is prone to abuse by the overzealous. It requires finesse. There also ought to be some kind of mature oversight on the prolife side. Yes, there is some risk. Prayer and a video camera are essential.
And Janet, I'm not a "new" convert. Your condescending tone is as much a turn off as your scripture passages.
I haven't quoted scripture, you haven't answered my sincere questions, you aren't paying attention to what is being said to you. Re-read what's been written. In the spirit of charity I'll stop there.Posted by: Janet at June 5, 2010 4:29 PM
As my son with Downs would say "That's so funny".
One day when you really have to fight for something you believe in or develop the courage to do what you know is right feel free to discuss your opinions with me and know that I alas will do the same. To be a zealot is actually a good thing and imagine if those who abide in the womb could speak they would encourage legal zeal. Sublinqual B-12 has been shown to help patients with dementia. Be blessed.