Mandy goes to med school
One of our commenters, Rae, is a talented artist. You can view some of her work here.
I spotted Rae’s latest artwork, above, the other day, and was intrigued. Rae supports abortion, so even though she didn’t say so, I figured this piece had to do with the topic.
In describing her piece, Rae said she was inspired by the song, “Mandy goes to med school.” The words are at the link.
Rae has graciously agreed to allow me to post her artwork to provoke conversation, much like my post about the ambiguous Nurse video several weeks back.
Rae will serve as moderator of this post. If she doesn’t like a comment, I will delete it. And I will take it upon myself to delete any uncalled for comments that might disparage Rae’s obvious talent.
I’ll start the conversation. My thought is this portrait is of a pregnant nurse who has just committed an abortion. She’s holding forceps, you’ll notice. If this is so, what I find interesting is she’s bathed in blood – not exactly positive PR.
May.17, 2007 11:02 am |
Uncategorized |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Rae, I have looked at your art work before. Girl, not only are you as smart as a whip, you have an incredible talent!! I love this pic., but can you tell us what the meaning behind it is?
I didn’t know if it was about abortion or not, because the nurse is still pregnant.
Rae, you know I like your stuff.
To further my comment from above, the forceps make me think the nurse just performed/assisted in performing a late-term abortion, perhaps an ID&X.
To all those wishing to hold a conversation one can understand, “ID&X” is “partial birth abortion,” the legally correct term.
Have you heard the song? Did you read the lyrics?
The gist is that back-alley abortions are a bad, bad thing. I think the grisly picture portrays what lies in the aftermath of any procedure performed by an unqualified hack. (Hangers and med school students working out of an SUV – not good. It’s best that abortion remains legal…)
I think it’s interesting that there is a trash can, clothes on line, and general impression of unsafe/unclean… as though abortion has been banned and she’s performing them out in the hood… in situ so to speak.
Are you pro choice folks still harping on that coat hanger BS? How long are you going to beat that dead horse?
Heather, why is that BS? Don’t you think some pregnant women who want abortions after a ban will resort to illegal and dangerous providers?
Some will decide against abortion, some will go somewhere else, and some will find a way, no matter how dangerous or illegal. What am I missing about this “dead horse.”
Are you still harping on that guy dying for your sins… how long are you going to beat that dead horse?
The number of illegal abortions was “made up” according to former abortionist Bernard Nathanson. How long are you people going to allow yourselves to be brain washed? Get with it!!
Uh, Heather…
The “coathanger” reference comes from the first line of the song – you know – the piece that inspired the art?
“Mandy Goes to Med School”l
The Dresden Dolls
I’ve been feeling dull as a coat hanger
pretty as a picture of a patient on a fresh iv
giddy as a gangbanger with a set of sutures where his magic johnson ought to be
Most “illegal” abortions were performed in hospitals. Not in back alleys.
Laura, thanks for the clarification.
“I didn’t know if it was about abortion or not, because the nurse is still pregnant.”
What makes you think the doctor was trying to abort herself?
Interestingly, it is now the pro-choice crowd who claims one needs no advanced medical training in order to perform abortions.
Rae-
I actually didn’t get the impression that the Dr. was trying to self abort, but I can see how some might. The blood, though everywhere, is especially obvious on her skirt.
@Lauren: Yeah, I kind went a bit overboard on the blood by accident…I didn’t originally plan for there to be so much blood. >_
Heather, I’m not talking about the *number* of illegal abortions. Some young women try to abort themselves now, with abortion for most safe and available, I cannot imagine an abortion ban would not increase the number of dangerous actions taken by desperate women.
Laura: “The gist is that back-alley abortions are a bad, bad thing.”
yea, abortions in clinics are alot safer. especially for the baby.
Rae, I don’t think the amt. of blood is a bad thing, it just makes things a bit more open to intepretation.
@Lauren: That was the idea, it was meant to be ambiguous. :)
Jasper: yea, abortions in clinics are alot safer. especially for the baby.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t think babies should be having abortions. They shouldn’t be having sex or getting knocked up either.
I’m just old-fashioned that way.
Hal,
The year before Roe v Wade the death rate from illegal abortion was 36. NARAL, then called National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws deliberately inflated this figure to 10,000 and passed this on to a compliant and gullible media. Its not like NARAL didn’t know this was a total falsehood. They did. If women were taking such grave risks and dying in such numbers, why was lying necessary? Most illegal abortions were done in doctor’s offices. And why do women try to self abort now you ask? My guess would be protection of privacy. No questions asked, no information given. That’s why in Europe legal abortion did nothing to stop illegal abortion. In fact, in some countries the number of illegal abortions actually increased.
By the way Hal, can you name for me one criminal act of any kind that has been stopped because of a law against it?
Rae,
You are indeed very talented, this coming from someone who can’t stay inside the lines of a coloring book. I’ve always envied people who are talented at drawing.
I must go with Jill’s interpretation of the picture. I can’t quite make out the significance of the background. I can’t read what’s on the sign over the garbage can.
I think the back-alley/coat hanger arguement is rather important, actually. Desperate women are going to go through illegal measures like that to procure abortions if they really want one. Anti-abortion is not pro-life if you have to choose which life to save.
@Mary: The sign says “Doctor Is In” and the background is supposed to be an alley-way but I’m not *that* good at drawing buildings and proper backgrounds yet.
“I don’t think babies should be having abortions. They shouldn’t be having sex or getting knocked up either.
I’m just old-fashioned that way.”
Lauren, you funny. I’m refering to the babies in womb who are getting killed. Have you no sympathy, are you really that cold?
“By the way Hal, can you name for me one criminal act of any kind that has been stopped because of a law against it?”
I think that’s *my* point. Making abortion illegal would not stop it.
It would’t stop it, but it would make it a crime.
Right Heather, it would make it a crime. Make it more dangerous, make it less regulated, make it more traumatic. But not stop it. And that is a good thing, why?
So…what? You’d send desperate terrified women to prison? Yeah, that’s a service to society.
What makes you think they are all so terrified?
Erin,
Most illegal abortions were done in doctor’s offices, some in hospitals under false pretenses. One of the things that really grated Dr. Bernard Nathanson, a co-founder of NARAL, was women having abortions under false pretenses in hospitals. Since everyone knew what was really going on, why not just come out and say so? Dr. Nathanson truly felt legal abortion would address this inequality but gradually discovered this would not be the case and gradually became more disillusioned. This and improvement in antibiotic and fluid therapy is why the number of illegal abortion deaths were steadily declining over the years prior to, not because of Roe v Wade. I have seen women treated for complications of “safe legal” abortion who could be discharged as soon as they felt well enough, where maybe 40+ years earlier they would have been hospitalized for days. Its just that medical care is improved. Coat hangers and back alleys have a great deal of emotional appeal, but little basis in fact. So did the pictures of abused children and the baseless claim that abortion would solve child abuse. I imagine there were women desperate enough to do anything and always will be, and yes there were dangerous situations and conditions, but desperate people will do any number of things society simply cannot condone and people who want to do anything desperately enough will do it.
Rae,
Thank you. I love your drawings of the bldgs. I love cityscapes. Is that the right word? It never said in my coloring books what its called!
@Heather4life: I think they’re scared because they are pregnant and they may not have the support system they need to go through with it (pregnancy does have the potential to mess with your moods due to screwy hormones) and they may be scared of what people will think if she’s pregnant and unmarried.
Finding out that you’re pregnant when the course of your life relys on you not being pregnant is really stinking scary, not to mention that the stigma that will further be attached if it is made illegal will scare them even more. Either way, my question stands- you would say that you should send women who have abortions to jail?
Example: I know a woman who has had 7 abortions. I know another that claims to have “lost count.” After abortion # 6, did these grown women not know where babies came from? Were they terrified? I think not! Were they desperate? I’m not sure, but they shouldn’t have taken their clothes off and jumped into bed if they were so “terrified” of pregnancy.
Rae, great drawing, really thought provoking.
@SH: Thank you. :)
Let’s just say that we could all agree to keep abortion safe,legal,and rare. Do you really think that is going to happen? We are up to 4000 abortions a day. Who is having these abortions?
http://www.womenonwaves.org/article-1020.42-en.html
http://www.womenonwaves.org/article-1020.42-en.html
Real enough, cherub?
How did you get that great expression on her face? I used to draw, but could not get an expression down to save my life.
Whoops, double paste. Here’s the other site.
http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/120904women-who-died.html
“Coat hangers and back alleys have a great deal of emotional appeal, but little basis in fact.”
I could say the same about a lot of pro-life propaganda…
Jasper:
I didn’t say that! It was Laura. I’m definitely on your side.
Let me stop you right there. We were talking about Becky Bell last week. She did not die from an illegal abortion. Go to The Cemetery of Choice site. There are tons of women who have died from legal abortion.
jasper and Lauren, I almost mixed it up myself.
Erin,
I really don’t think legalizing abortion has removed the stigma. Much effort has been made to do so, i.e. celebrities discussing their abortions, talk shows,etc. but I believe its still there and I think people resent efforts to make them accept it. I’ve worked in surgical areas where staff refused to participate, and the staff that would resented being “stuck” with the abortions. Doctors who do abortions are still looked down on. I’m just telling you what I’ve observed.
Constentina,
Can you be more specific?
Heather4life,
Don’t you wish they were just as outraged over the deaths of Holly Patterson, Dawn Ravenell(a 14y/o who died of a legal abortion done without parental consent), and Christin Gilbert?
Mary, I also want to add that I have read stories about resident doctors that had to perform abortions and HATED it! Most of them quit.
Rae –
Your artwork is amazing. ‘Return to me’ is still my favorite!
As for this picture – It is very good. I think of it as a picture that says a thousand words. It can be seen in many different ways. It takes talent to do artwork that does that!
Hal,
I also pointed out that making abortion legal didn’t stop illegal abortion. Why do we have laws at all since making anything illegal has never stopped anyone determined to commit an illegal act?
Mary, unfortunately most of them will never be. Once again, someone links me to the death of Becky Bell. We already covered this, but the pro choice crowd just won’t let it die.
oh, sorry Lauren, I meant Laura.
It’s ok, Jasper. I just didn’t want you to be confused.
Mary, would could go far afield talking about the justifications of the criminal law. I’m not sure we need to. Making things illegal has consequences. Some perhaps good, some not so good. For example, prohibition reduced the amount of drinking (I suppose that’s good) but drastically increased the amount of crime (not so good).
Banning abortion might reduce the number of abotions (I’m not completely sure, but it makes some sense that the number would go down) but it would have other consequences. More dangerous abortions, more women trying to self-abort, etc.
Given that I don’t think a ban would significantly reduce the number of abortions (does anyone disagree?), and would significantly cause other problems, I oppose a ban. Trying to convince women voluntarily against terminating pregnancies (assuming civil behavior) has little downside. Have at it.
Hal, We need to do something! Abortion is totally abused in this country.
Hal,
I understand Prohibition greatly increased the rate of alcohol abuse. I chalk it up to the lure of the forbidden. You’re right about the crime though. However, legalizing liquor didn’t put the criminal element out of business, they just channelled their energies elsewhere.
Laws can have negative consequences but we still must have them. For instance a criminal may kill his/her victim to prevent reporting, identification and imprisonment. It has certainly happened and will continue to happen. Should we repeal all criminal laws?
Certainly women who want abortions desperately enough will get them, but at the rate of 4,000 a day? The declining death rate prior to Roe v Wade certainly showed that what illegal abortions were taking place certainly weren’t killing and maiming women as we were led to believe, or perhaps the number of illegal abortions wasn’t all that high. The number of legal abortion deaths has been far higher over the years, but so were the numbers of legal abortions. Given this, then perhaps making abortion illegal would cut down the death rate.
Mary, I agree 100% to that!
Hello all,
Has anyone known of any specific incidences where a woman had to choose between her life and her baby because of a health issue.
Just wondering, can’t find one, only “mental anguish” ones.
I feel that the legalization of abortion has given people the right to abuse it. 4000 abortions a day? Most women do nothing to prevent the pregnancy in the first place. Women have got to stop playing the victim. I get tired of all the excuses I hear. Isn’t your body supposed to be your temple? If so, then take care of it. I want to know why some women believe that an abortion empowers them.
Hi Janet. Glad you came. Personally, I do not.
Janet-
Not an actual case, but my mother almost had to abort me to save her life. If you are interested, I will tell you.
Janet, One of my girlfriends did abort because she claims she was depressed. I just remembered.
Hi Hal,
I believe it was Less that posted on another thread that she preferred to “herbally” abort, so I take that to mean she self-aborts, even though abortion is legal in this country. Oh, and it’s good to see you here, missed seeing your posts for a bit there!
Mary,
Rock on, Girl! :)
Janet,
I know of pregnant women who have had to be closely supervised because of a health risk, but I know of no abortions ever being necessary. I’ve seen surgery performed on pregnant women for possible cancer as well,and this posed a threat to the fetus, but the mother and baby fortunately did fine. I know of 3 instances where a woman was aborted because of risk to her life. 2 of these were in Catholic hospitals.
With the health factor, you have to keep in mind too that conditions that at one time posed a threat to a pregnant woman’s life, i.e. diabetes, heart condition, can now be better managed medically whereas several years ago they could not. I gave the example in a previous post how a woman with rheumatic heart disease was signing her death warrant if she became pregnant. She had a 60% chance of dying. With improved medical care, the death rate was reduced to less than one half of 1%. Who sees rheumatic heart disease anymore? Medical technology has made many health risks managable.
Heather, you can’t mean this:
“Most women do nothing to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.”
There are over 150,000,000 females in this country, many sexually active. If 4,000 women a day are having abortions, *most* women are doing their part to avoid pregancy in the first place.
maybe you meant most women who have abortions did nothing to prevent the pregnancy in the first place. I’m sure that’s true of “some,” but I don’t know about “most.”
I think most women who don’t want to get pregnant are pretty careful. I would hope so, anyway.
“Banning abortion might reduce the number of abortions (I’m not completely sure, but it makes some sense that the number would go down) but it would have other consequences. More dangerous abortions, more women trying to self-abort, etc.”
Banning larceny might reduce the number of thefts (I’m not completely sure, but it makes some sense that the number would go down) but it would have other consequences. More dangerous thefts, more people trying to commit theft by themselves, etc.”
Do you see the absurdity in your argument Hal?
Hal, I should have clarified: of the women I know, most did nothing to prevent pregnancy. The woman I know that had 7 abortions said that she never used any protection. When I asked her why, she replied “For what?” “If I get pregnant, I’ll just have another abortion.”
5 women come to mind. All had abortions. None used protection.
No, Jasper, I don’t.
I see the absurdity in your attempt to discredit it.
Outlawing theft does not lead to many unintended negative consequences. I’m sure there are some, (some unnecessary incarceration of non-violent offenders, perhaps)
And, making theft illegal probably does act as a signficant deterance.
As I indicated, making abortion illegal might indeed prevent some abortions. So, from your point of view, it’s not completely illogical. Can you even consider there might also be negative aspects as well?
“Can you even consider there might also be negative aspects as well?”
No, not one. You ban things to reduce the number of occurances, but you ban it because it is the moral thing to do.
jasper, I agree with you.
Um, Jasper, not all bans are for “moral” reasons. And I dont think morality has anything to do with our legal system either.
Hal, I used to believe that banning abortion was not the best course of action for the pro-life community.
There is validity in the argument that our society has become dependent on abortion.
Then I realized that I could not justify kee+ping abortion legal simply because of our cultural immaturity.
I now believe that we must incorporate coping mechanisms into any law banning abortion. We must help women transition from the abortive mindset, to one in which children are valued.
If we can do this, we will cut down on much of the backlash.
Midnite- Morality is infused in our legal system. Without morality we would have no compas from which to navigate.
I know that most of our original laws are based on morality, but not some of the new ones.
Not to mention, just because something is immoral doesnt make it illegal. And just b/c it is illegal doesnt make it immoral. Does that make sense?
I take offence to that, Heather. I, for one, was on the Pill when I got pregnant. I know at least one girl who was using a condom and the Pill, and got pregnant. 99% effective is good- but with a huge population, the 1% is going to involve a large number of people.
“Midnite- Morality is infused in our legal system. Without morality we would have no compas from which to navigate.”
Our civic obedience laws are “contingent” on morality.
http://www.ahajokes.com/stupid_laws.html
Can someone explain to me how *THESE* are based on “morality” then?
I interpert the picture as perhaps commenting that having maternal feelings and preforming abortions aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, as I consider that the mark of good art is ambiguity, Rae has quite a bit of talent.
Heather:
Most women do nothing to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.
Untrue, 54% of women who have abortions have used contraception.
I’m not sure, but they shouldn’t have taken their clothes off and jumped into bed if they were so “terrified” of pregnancy.
Such a compassionate attitude there, Heather: what a shining example of Christianity you are.
…you ban it because it is the moral thing to do.
So, jasper, whose morality are you using?
Hi Erin,
Actually, like you I was also on the Pill.
It still doesn’t change the fact that I destroyed the life of a human being by aborting.
Heather,
I do agree with you, though. I think abortion will always be a “back-up”.
All bees entering Kentucky shall be accompanied by certificates of health, stating that the apiary from which the bees came was free from contagious or infectious disease. -KRS 252.130 (Passed in 1922; Repealed in 1948)
Awesomely useful law
Because bees routinely carry around documentation…..
Glad its been repealed though, too many bees where unjustly incarcerated…though its much easier to escape prison when you’re a bee.
Great job Rae :-)
I’m thinking I got the meaning behind it
@Valerie: Thank you very much. :) “Return to Me” took absolutely forever to color…getting all that hair to look realistic and flow-y was such a pain.
@JK: Thanks, I’m glad you like it. What do you think the meaning is? Because to be honest, there really isn’t any meaning behind this drawing for me…it was literally just an idea that popped into my head while listening to a song.
Well I kind of got from the song that it was a girl who performed back alley abortions so she could put herself through med school, kind of ironic that doing medical procedures illegally would afford her the opportunity to do legal ones.
But I also thought it was a little bit about hypocrisy. A pregnant woman (which could possibly be a symbol for a pro-life person) performing abortions, and a doctor (at least a med student) putting their patients through unsafe conditions in the name of making money.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, its just how I viewed it.
Rae, yes you are quite talented, I checked out some of your drawings on your site-
Thanks
Well, shock, I agree with JK’s analysis. I’m glad he pointed out the curiosity that the med student is pregnant, which caused the meaning of the art not quite to fit into a bowed package after I found out this was a back-alley abortionist.
Rae, your art certainly has stimulated conversation. I had to go to IN this afternoon and on my way got a call from a pro-life friend in Springfield, IL, wanting to discuss his analysis of the piece.
Aww, Jill, don’t be shocked
:-)
Erin, I really didn’t mean to offend you. It’s just that the women that I know personally did not use protection by their own admission. Please note that I don’t hate women who have had abortions. I hate the act itself. I just wanted to clear that up. *peace*
@Heather: Instead of saying “whoa, my friend had 6 abortions”, you could instead ask “Why did my friend have sex without birth control enough to get pregnant six time?”
If she starts using birth control, then there’s less abortions, like we want, and she can still have sex, like she wants. Win-win, no?
Erin,
Your sense of morality is skewed. Murder is NEVER justified.
Do that and the killing of anyone for any reason can be weighed with what appears to be good sounding arguments. Hitler used skewed logic and morality to kill Jews and his countrymen bought into it. Makes me wonder if you were living back then if you would have done the same?
Why don’t we just kill everyone with AIDS because they are going to die anyway and that’s the only way you can end the epidemic. Now does that sound crazy or what? Of course. People with AIDS are especially needy and deserve utmost care and consideration simply because they are human beings who God loves dearly and are also among the “least of these” fighting a devastating disease. I care for people with AIDS as much as I do babies in the womb.
No, let’s provide an atmosphere of love and caring for people who make mistakes, be they victims of unwanted pregnancy or a sexually transmitted disease. None of us is perfect and all deserve a second chance without having to cause more death.
I *heart* you Rae. This picture is lovely.
Kellye, clarify which you think is “lovely” – the artwork, or the portrait of a bloody back-alley pregnant abortionist holding forceps?
Zurg, No. For this woman it is too late. She had to undergo an emergency hysterectomy because off all the damage that the repeat abortions did to her insides.
Even if she had been previously a most responsible birth control user, she could still have become pregnant, as over half of unplanned pregnancies occur due to failed birth control.
So no win-win situation there.
HisMan:
I agree completely!
Look at what has happened in history when a class of people are looked down on. The Gladiators in Rome would be an example. The Romans weren’t that picky and the Gladiators didn’t have to be a specific color, race, or religion.
And their deaths were the Romans entertainment.
We now have a group of people, the unborn, that are looked down on. And their deaths keep others from being inconvienced (remember over 90% of abortions are for BC).
Are you still harping on that guy dying for your sins… how long are you going to beat that dead horse?
Jill, when are you going to eject this troll. He doesn’t seem to have anything productive to add to the discussion.
Given that I don’t think a ban would significantly reduce the number of abortions (does anyone disagree?)
I disagree, Hal. Making abortion illegal would take away society’s mark of approval, and reinforce the fact that abortion is a Bad Thing™.
Will women still get abortions? Sure. I heard stories about people of my mother’s generation (WW II) who had gotten abortions.
If there is a societal stigma associated with it, and doing it could make you become a criminal, that is a pretty serious deterrent, especially for a young woman who is concerned about how a pregnancy can affect the rest of her life (I’d imagine a felony will affect it much worse).
Do I want to jail women who procure abortions? No. Do I want to jail “doctors” (and other scumbags) who perform abortions? You bet. And for evil people like Tiller, I’d like to see them remain in prison until they are room temperature.
And you seem to be worried that abortions will be carried out in places that are unsanitary by unqualified people. I have news for you. It’s happening now. You seem to be worried that women will be dying because they have back alley abortions. I have news for you. They are now. They are dying from sepsis, peritonitis, hemorrhage, etc. But now, because it’s legal, it goes before the medical review board instead of a criminal judge.
Tony, excellent points!!!
Tony, I have no problems with cases of women injured during abortion going to a medical review board instead of a criminal judge. Sounds like the right forum for when something goes wrong with a medical procedure. What would a criminal law judge know about that?
Notice the baby’s face on the nurse’s belly? I think it was Rae’s Freudian slip…a baby in anguish about to be murdered.
Nice artwork though. Too bad it appears to be wasted on a cause that supports abortion.
Hal:
“Tony, I have no problems with cases of women injured during abortion going to a medical review board instead of a criminal judge. Sounds like the right forum for when something goes wrong with a medical procedure. What would a criminal law judge know about that?”
What would a judge know about any of a vast number of things judges adjudicate? As I recall, judges referee claims by those who present evidence. The judge’s knowledge of a matter is not, itself, evidence.
Or maybe you’re just crazy, HisMan.
Why does every one always get so angry with His Man? Is it because he makes so much sense?
@HisMan: There is no baby’s face on the pregnant woman’s stomach. And why do you think she was going to abort herself? Perhaps here baby was actually wanted?
And I’m glad you find the artwork nice, though I am disappointed that you think it supports abortion, as it is meant to be neither supporting nor condemning.
*shrugs*
My first thought upon seeing the picture was the irony of the first thing taught to all pre-med students: “First, do no harm.” The irony is that if the motto were really heeded, the physicians would be the first to point out to the politicicans the physical harm to the baby and lifetime mental harm to the woman.
My second thought upon seeing the picture was “Physician, heal thyself.” Perhaps after performing the abortion, the med student/physician is thinking twice and will carry her baby to term. Or perhaps she was already going to carry it to term but now realizes she shouldn’t perform abortions again. I think one could interpret this picture either way. Wishful thinking? More like prayerful thinking.
Heather: “Why does every one always get so angry with His Man? Is it because he makes so much sense?”
No, Heather, I don’t think that’s why. He’s not saying anything more profound than you, MK, Jill, etc. Why does everyone get so angry with HisMan? why? There must be a reason. See if you can find it.
Tony, I have no problems with cases of women injured during abortion going to a medical review board instead of a criminal judge. Sounds like the right forum for when something goes wrong with a medical procedure. What would a criminal law judge know about that?
Hal, the problem with it is that you pro-aborts bring up the specter of women dying in back alley abortions. You knew about women dying of abortions because it was in the “police blotter” section of your local newspaper, and statistics were kept by U.S. health organizations.
Now, since abortion is legal and is a “medical” procedure, the women (even after death) are covered by privacy laws. Nobody really knows how many women are dying of abortions nowadays, but judging from the number of families who are coming forward, it’s staggering.
I submit that more American women have died from abortion in the past 40 years than had died in the previous 200.
Tony, you can “submit” that if you wish, but I don’t find it convincing. Plus, remember, there are a lot more people around these days, so that might change the gross numbers. If we have twice the population now, for example, and the number of deaths from abortion is the same, the rate has actually dropped in half.
If “nobody really knows” then nobody really knows. Not me, not you. If women *are* dying from abortions these days, it is an argument for safer abortions, not unsafer (illegal) abortions.
Hal, go visit this site ‘The Cemetery of Choice’ You will find a list of women who have died from LEGAL abortions. You WONT hear about them because NOW and NARAL are doing all they can to keep it swept under the rug!!
Hal, I can’t find anything wrong with His Mans posts. I like them! Please don’t let organizations like NOW and NARAL brainwash you. Get smart! Investigate them and see what liars they are. Start with former abortionist Bernard Nathanson.
Heather, I’ll accept that women have died following legal abortions. As I said, that’s an argument for safer abortions, not for unsafer (illegal) abortions.
Abortionist Edward Allred has put a few women in the grave. Is anyone outraged?
Can you prove it?
Mary,
Pena, California
Hispanic
December 16, 1984
Killed by Doctor Edwards
Family Planning Associates, Los Angeles, CA
L.A. County Coroner’s Report, No. 84-16016
Patricia
Chacon, California
Hispanic
March 3, 1984
Killed by Doctor Edwards
Family Planning Associates, Los Angeles, CA
L.A. County Coroner’s Report, No. 84-2948
Denise
Holmes, California
Caucasian
December 21, 1970
Killed by Doctor Edwards
Avalon Memorial Hospital, Los Angeles, CA
L.A. County Coroner’s Report, No. 70-13367
Heather4life,
And what about Allred’s venomously racist statements about black and hispanic women? Were I a minority woman, I would greatly fear for my safety and I mean that very literally. The idea that Allred would just do his job and treat minority woman with respect and care is at best naive and at worst dangerous. I’ve actually seen it advised that if you even suspect your doctor dislikes you or has any kind of prejudice then your care can be seriously compromised and you should seek out another physician and fast.
Bethany, what does “Killed by Doctor Edwards” mean? That’s not language a County Coroner would use. Was it homicide, negligence, what?
If it’s homicide, he should be in jail. If it’s negligence, he should be in jail or at least sued, depending on the severity.
Three deaths in the last 37 years may or may not be significant. I’m sure most heart surgeons have a higher rate of dead patients then that. It really depends on how and why they died. Then I can decide if i’m outraged.
Hal, a lot of abortionists should be in jail, but they aren’t! Go to this site [if you can handle it] Death Roe. com. Please educate yourself. Less, you can Google every abortionist that I have listed. I hope you do. You guys all seem to think that RTL’s have “overactive” imaginations.
Tony, you can “submit” that if you wish, but I don’t find it convincing.
Of course you don’t. If you did, and still held on to your pro-abortion views, you’d either be evil or stupid, and I don’t think you’re either.
Plus, remember, there are a lot more people around these days, so that might change the gross numbers. If we have twice the population now, for example, and the number of deaths from abortion is the same, the rate has actually dropped in half.
Now I understand why you don’t find this sort of thing convincing. You really don’t understand statistics.
We really have to compare the number of deaths to the number of abortions to decide if the safety for women has really improved.
If “nobody really knows” then nobody really knows. Not me, not you. If women *are* dying from abortions these days, it is an argument for safer abortions, not unsafer (illegal) abortions.
Good point, Hal. Why aren’t abortions safer? Could it be that following proven medical procedures for safety, anesthesia, infection control and post abortion monitoring cuts into the abortionist’s bottom line?
I don’t imagine the best and the brightest medical minds are attracted to abortion. Doctors generally get into the business to heal people. Abortionists kill people, the baby every time (either before or after birth) and the mother sometimes (through carelessness or negligence).
So women are going to the scuzz at the bottom of the medical barrel to get abortions, and we’re surprised that a host of medical problems crop up, including infertility and sometimes death?
Bethany, what does “Killed by Doctor Edwards” mean? That’s not language a County Coroner would use. Was it homicide, negligence, what?
Hal, it’s because I didn’t copy and paste it (well not the whole block of text, each line was separately copied and pasted except the line about Dr. Edwards), I included “killed by dr edwards” so that Less could know that I was answering her question.
Good point, Hal. Why aren’t abortions safer? Could it be that following proven medical procedures for safety, anesthesia, infection control and post abortion monitoring cuts into the abortionist’s bottom line?
I don’t imagine the best and the brightest medical minds are attracted to abortion. Doctors generally get into the business to heal people. Abortionists kill people, the baby every time (either before or after birth) and the mother sometimes (through carelessness or negligence).
So women are going to the scuzz at the bottom of the medical barrel to get abortions, and we’re surprised that a host of medical problems crop up, including infertility and sometimes death?
Good point.
Hal:
Sixteen-year-old Patty underwent a second-trimester abortion at the hands of either Edward Allred or Leslie Orleans at Allred’s Avalon Hospital in Los Angeles on the morning of March 3, 1984. Patty retained fetal tissues, so she was scheduled for a second procedure that afternoon to complete the abortion.
There are conflicting stories as to what happened next. Allred claimed that Patty died of an embolism during the second surgery (he pronounced her dead at 4:30 PM). Patty’s parents claim that Patty bled to death while left unattended.
An autopsy found numerous catgut sutures in Patty’s vagina and hemorrhage in her uterus. Death was attributed to disseminated intravascular coagulopathy due to abortion-induced amniotic fluid embolism. Patty’s parents sued Allred and Orleans for their daughter’s death.
Avalon Hospital was part of Edward Allred’s Family Planning Associates Medical Group, a National Abortion Federation member facility.
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On December 15, 1984, Mary Pena underwent an abortion at San Vincente Hospital in Los Angeles. Mary had thought that she was 3 months pregnant, but doctors discovered she was at 22-weeks.
During the procedure, performed by either Edward Allred or Ruben Marmet, Mary sustained two cervical lacerations, and because she was bleeding heavily, a hysterectomy was performed in an effort to save her life. The surgery was not successful, and at 1:50 am on December 16, 1984, she died while on the operating table.
Mary was 43 years old and the mother of five.
The Investigator’s Report states “Dr. Allred cleared the case with Coroner and body was released to the family picked mortuary … and services held. When the death certificate was taken to Kern County Health Department they refused to accept it and called the case to Los Angeles Coroner. … Mortuary in Bakersfield will bring body to this office for autopsy on morning of 12-20-84.”
Only then was cause of death attributed to exsanguination due to cervical laceration due to therapeutic abortion. The cervix showed two lacerations – a small one that had been sutured and a large unsutured one extending through the full ring of the cervix.
Once a cause for the fatal hemorrhage was determined, the death certificate was accepted, and Mary was laid to rest again.
San Vicente had been purchased by National Abortion Federation member Familiy Practice Associates Medical Group shortly before Mary’s death.
***************
Denise Holmes, a 24-year-old Australian woman living in Texas, decided to undergo an abortion at Avalon Hospital in Los Angeles, California, on her way home for Christmas of 1970.
Denise checked into Avalon Hospital (an abortion facility owned by Edward Campbell Allred) on December 21. Denise suffered an amniotic fluid embolism that carried pieces of fetal bone marrow into her lungs. She was pronounced dead by Edward Allred at Avalon at 5pm.
Denise is the first confirmed abortion death at an Allred facility. She was just the first to die before the National Abortion Federation was founded, with Allred’s Family Planning Associates Medical Group as a member. Others known to have died after abortion at Allred’s facilities include:
* Patricia Chacon, age 16, 1984
* Mary Pena, age 43, 1984
* Josefina Garcia, age 37, 1985
* Lanice Dorsey, age 17, 1986
* Joyce Ortenzio, age 32, 1988
* Tami Suematsu, age 19, 1988
* Susan Levy, age 30, 1992
* Deanna Bell, age 13, 1992
* Christina Mora, age 18, 1994
* Kimberly Neil, 2000
* Chanelle Bryant, age 22, 2004
I suspect that the reason the deaths appear in clusters is because those are years that researchers checked for lawsuits, rather than that these are all the women and girls who died at Allred facilities. Anybody with the time and resources to do so could probably uncover other deaths Allred and his staff have managed to sweep under the carpet.
Rae,
Your artist’s rendering of Mandy goes to Med School, is eerily similiar to Islamic Jihad. How often do Islamo terrorists depict their bloody work once it’s performed? They wear it (literally) as badge of honor. ( see Ezekiel 22)
Stephanie