Paris preps for “parisite”
From the Boston Globe, September 4:
Paris Hilton has vowed to have children by next year.
The hotel heiress, who is currently single, is ready to become a mother and is preparing her body so it is in prime condition for conceiving.
She said in an interview with Elle magazine: “I want kids next year, so I’ve got to get my body ready.”…
It was recently reported that Paris, 26, had been feeling broody since close friend Nicole Richie fell pregnant.
A source said: “Paris told me, ‘I want lots of babies and a more simple life away from the celebrity spotlight. I did a lot of soul-searching about my partying and then I heard Nicole was pregnant and I decided it’s time for me to grow up and take responsibility – and the best way to do that is to become a mother.’ “
Hm. So many directions I could take this. But I’ll just make the point least likely to be noted and leave the abundance of other rich fodder for commenters.
That is, if it’s true preborn babies are parasites, as so many abortion proponents on this site claim, why is it women prepare for them? One normally doesn’t get one’s body in shape to welcome a parasite (or in Paris’ case, “parisite”). One usually gets one’s body in shape to try to rid oneself of a parasite, like a cancer bug.
Or is it that one woman’s parasite is another’s butterfly? But that won’t work either. That would be to say the definition of these beings is abstract, when scientifically that’s not possible.
I liked Paris more when she was irresponsible and crazy. She didn’t apologize for who she was, if a man did what she did he would be a role modle, a “swinging bacholer”. I don’t even know if she’s real about who she is anymore. Ah well, whatever makes her happy, I think she’ll be a good mom.
I honestly don’t know what to think of Paris.
I know that the parasite thing *really* bothers me. The onion just did one of their famous faux articles on women being overjoyed to be “infected” with a “parasite” AKA to be pregnant with a child.
Perhaps more upsetting is that a new age of feminists are having children who insist upon refering to them as “the fetus”. The abortion culture has done so much to distance mothers from their children, and it saddens me to no end.
Earth to Jill: Cancer is not a parasite, and there’s no such thing as a “cancer bug”.
Sounds to me like Paris is “on the rebound” and I don’t think that’s the greatest time to be making such decisions.
Jill: That is, if it’s true preborn babies are parasites, as so many abortion proponents on this site claim, why is it women prepare for them? One normally doesn’t get one’s body in shape to welcome a parasite (or in Paris’ case, “parisite”). One usually gets one’s body in shape to try to rid oneself of a parasite, like a cancer bug.
Or is it that one woman’s parasite is another’s butterfly? But that won’t work either. That would be to say the definition of these beings is abstract, when scientifically that’s not possible.
While “parasite” applies to varying degrees, I think it’s mainly used by people trying to push pro-lifer’s buttons. Some women prepare for pregnancy because they want kids and want to be pregnant.
What, really, does it matter about “parasite”? The bottom line is that the woman is going to want to be pregnant or not.
Doug
Well, the fact that it is both factually inaccurate and insulting has alot to do with it.
I think the parasite argument it stupid. It has served only to further devalue unborn children and hurt women.
Lauren, what do you mean by “the parasite argument”?
Just curious.
That a z/e/f has a strictly parasitic relationship to the mother.
Obviously, the realtionship can be much better described as a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. This is expecially true when viewed as a species, but holds for most individuals as well.
Many pro-lifers call pro-choicers “pro-aborters” It bothers me and annoys me… yet they still do it. ah I am not in the mood for this tonight. good night
JM, there are definitely some “pro-aborts”, but you’re not one of them.
Lauren,
“Obviously, the realtionship can be much better described as a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. This is expecially true when viewed as a species, but holds for most individuals as well.”
Excuse me? How does a woman benefit from having a fetus use her body to survive? The interests of the woman and the interests of the fetus differ. In no way is it a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.
“In no way is it a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.”
you couldn’t be more wrong.
I’d like to go ahead and file a complaint with Social Services……
moved doug here…
“No, because sense perception, especially conscious sense perception, is not present then.”
MK: Sentience is the ability to sense. It is separate from, and not dependent on, aspects of consciousness.
I did try to give you a way out by using sapient…but since you opted for sentient, you’re stuck with the definition.
MK, the definition is fine – here are the first two entries from dictionary.com:
1. having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2. characterized by sensation and consciousness.
I do think there is an element of mental awareness to it.
……..
Consciousness of sensation is not required.
I think that it is, per the definition of the word.
……..
So tell me again, why would this child, whose thalamus is working to the degree where all of its’ senses (sans smell) are working not be sentient?
Because there is no conscious awareness. When I’ve seen “sentient” used in literature, it has mental awareness implied in the usage every time.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 7, 2007 8:10 PM
MK: Per your poem…no pro life sentiment? HELLLOOOO! The thing positively reeks of pro-life! It’s filthy with it! And you know it, or you wouldn’t have felt compelled to “qualify” it!
I just meant that I wasn’t presenting it as an argument here. I know there are sentiments in it that could be seen as pro-life. They’re Catholic, but don’t go to church. I don’t really know if my mother-in-law is pro-life or not. If I had to guess, I’d say she’s pro-choice.
Duh, the heavens rejoice for EVERYONES BIRTHDAY!)
Really? How do you know? Is that a common saying? Yikes…. I do think she’ll like it, but don’t want to sound trite, banal, etc.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 7, 2007 8:10 PM
From Merriam_webster:
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2 : AWARE
Posted by: Doug at September 7, 2007 8:12 PM
MK:This was my source for the thalamus post…
http://www.abbysenior.com/biology/nervous_system.htm
Right from that site:
b. Thalamus – It is the relay centre for sensory impulses travelling upwards from other parts of the cord and the brain to the cerebrum. It receives all sensory impulses (except for smell) and channels them to appropriate regions of the cerebrum
c. Cerebrum – The area responsible for consciousness.
When we are talking about actually “feeling pain,” etc., the thalamus alone doesn’t get it. More brain development, connection and operation is necessary, and that comes later in gestation.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at September 7, 2007 8:16 PM
Doug,
If I touch a fetus and it moves away from the touch, then a signal was given to the thalamus. The thalamus must have sent it somewhere or the fetus couldn’t have moved. It must have FELT something, thus it was sentient. If it didn’t “sense” something, then it couldn’t have reacted. It must have been conscious or it would not have moved. You can call it reflex if you want, but it still means that the sense of touch is working and the fetus is reacting…hence it must be conscious. Bricks don’t move when you touch them.
I say it’s sentience. Show me where I’m wrong. What caused the child to react, if not it’s brain and nervous system?
Posted by: mk at September 7, 2007 10:52 PM
From Merriam_webster:
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2 : AWARE
Yes aware…how else could the fetus have reacted. It’s brain was AWARE of the sense of touch….Sentience!
Posted by: mk at September 7, 2007 10:54 PM
SoMG,
Earth to Jill: Cancer is not a parasite, and there’s no such thing as a “cancer bug”.
“Now… thanks to your hacking my trees to the ground, there’s not enough Truffula Fruit to go ’round.” Dr. Seuss
“I’d like to go ahead and file a complaint with Social Services……”
Give her a chance, she might surprise you.
Am I the only one that thinks it might be a good idea for Hilton to grow up before having a child rather than intentionally using one to give the impression of being a responsible adult?
And what does she mean by getting her body ready? Detoxing? Having let out seams put into her abdomen to avoid stretch marks? Trying men out for the role as daddy? What?
Jill, I don’t really think that using an air head socialite as an example for possible motherhood to be a very good case for your anti-choice stance.
That a z/e/f has a strictly parasitic relationship to the mother.
Obviously, the realtionship can be much better described as a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. This is expecially true when viewed as a species, but holds for most individuals as well.
Posted by: lauren at September 7, 2007 10:10 PM
What beneifit does a z/e/f provide a woman in any way comparable to what a woman provides the z/e/f?
If I touch a fetus and it moves away from the touch, then a signal was given to the thalamus. The thalamus must have sent it somewhere or the fetus couldn’t have moved. It must have FELT something, thus it was sentient. If it didn’t “sense” something, then it couldn’t have reacted. It must have been conscious or it would not have moved. You can call it reflex if you want, but it still means that the sense of touch is working and the fetus is reacting…hence it must be conscious. Bricks don’t move when you touch them.
I say it’s sentience. Show me where I’m wrong. What caused the child to react, if not it’s brain and nervous system?
Posted by: mk at September 7, 2007 10:52 PM
From Merriam_webster:
1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions
2 : AWARE
Yes aware…how else could the fetus have reacted. It’s brain was AWARE of the sense of touch….Sentience!
Posted by: mk at September 7, 2007 10:54 PM
Posted by: mk at September 7, 2007 11:18 PM
Hmmmm. This has to be that Silent Scream stuff. Why would a fetus move away from your touch? Are you saying that fetiii are capable of sensing that you intend them harm when an infant
cannot? Does birth cause memory loss to fetii?
mk?
Did you IM me yesterday? If that was you give me an indication of who you are if you want to chat with me.
I’m so over Paris Hilton. She’s completely selfish, and for some reason America keeps biting the bait.
Her reasons for wanting a baby pretty much amounts to,
“OMG So my BFF Nicole is having a baby, and I was like, duh! Why can’t I have one? I should get one too! It would go perfect with my Fendi purse!!!!”
And her publicist said,
“She’s totally changed since she was in jail for 20 days. She knew she can live without a stylist, so she can live with anything. She is now ready for a baby! What a good person!”
At the risk of sounding like John Stossel, give me a break!
Sorry, I feel like I have to finish that ranting thought…
I have a feeling she is going to be ahorrible mother.
I like her! I think she and Nicole will be great moms!
Oh, good grief…
I feel sorry for the kids, having Paris or Nicole as a mother.
I feel like they’re going to be horrible parents. I hope I’m proven wrong.
since close friend Nicole Richie fell pregnant.
“Fell pregnant?” They make it sound like a tragic mishap!
Sally,
No I didn’t IM you. Don’t even know what that means. Sorry. Do you mean email? I didn’t do that either.
Hmmmm. This has to be that Silent Scream stuff. Why would a fetus move away from your touch? Are you saying that fetiii are capable of sensing that you intend them harm when an infant
cannot? Does birth cause memory loss to fetii?
Babies are the new “it” accessory for celebutantes. I’m sure she probably “wants one” because Nicole is “getting one” and Britney already has two and she needs to keep up.
This is only one reason that I have doubts about Paris’s parenting ability. The fact that she shows no responsibility in any other aspects of her life is also a red flag. She’s a professional club hopper, how can you care for children when you’re out til 4 am or later every night drinking and doing drugs?
Another side note: Paris once claimed her dog had been kidnapped, only to realize later that she had forgotten and left the dog at a kennel. She can’t do that with a kid, she’ll get sent back to the big house.
Back when Britney first wanted to get pregnant I gave her the benefit of the doubt. I thought her desire to have children was a sign that she would tame down and be a good mother. Now it seems like her kids would be better off with K-Fed….
Tillers clinic is truly evil:
an 18 year is coerced into aborting her 26 week-old unborn baby, they did not allow her to see the ultra-sound. Michelle delivered at the abortion clinic on the third day of the procedure. She refused to deliver her baby into a toilet bowl, as ordered by clinic workers. Instead she delivered her dead baby on the floor next to the commode, a sight that still haunts her to this day.
http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=744
“In no way is it a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.”
Having twenty some odd nieces and nephews and my wife being pregnant twice (so far), I am perplexed as to why women who are pregnant don
Well, * off topic for a second*..celebrities are only human. Their children certiantly aren’t going to go hungry. Look at Madonna. I have read 2 books about her. I was shocked that she admitted to 6-7 abortions. She quoted “To bring an unwanted child into this world is doing a disservice to society.” “Yes, I feel bad about it, but sometimes these sad things are a part of life.” Here is a woman who could have afforded condoms made out of gold! She’s a mother. I guess she’s doing an okay job.
If I touch a fetus and it moves away from the touch, then a signal was given to the thalamus. The thalamus must have sent it somewhere or the fetus couldn’t have moved. It must have FELT something, thus it was sentient. If it didn’t “sense” something, then it couldn’t have reacted. It must have been conscious or it would not have moved.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ever see the proverbial “chicken with it’s head cut off” run and run?
There’s a vast difference between a conscious response and an autonomic nerve response. The mechanical gear needed for consciousness and sentience doesn’t show until late in pregnancy. The thalamus doesnt effect conscious response.
“Am I the only one that thinks it might be a good idea for Hilton to grow up before having a child rather than intentionally using one to give the impression of being a responsible adult?”
No you are not.
jkeller,
An excellent post with some very good points. The thing with these celebrities is that they can dump the kids on the nannies.
I’m especially bothered by these celebrities shopping third world orphanages like they’re flea markets to find the child that satisfies their whims. I respect that others have a far more charitable perspective of this than I do. They could instead call the nearest social service agency and find children of all ages, races, and ethnicities in desperate need of homes.
About Britney, I agree K-Fed at least couldn’t do any worse.
Joe,
Paris can tend to her own fanny. She’ll have a nanny to tend to the baby’s. I hope she doesn’t discover too late, as Britney seems to have, that babies aren’t toys that you put in the corner when you’re tired of playing with them.
Joe,
An afterthought. Paris tend to her own fanny? She can’t even remember her panties.
PIP,
Paris can live without a stylist? Well ladies if she can do it, so can we!
Laura,
Ever see the proverbial “chicken with it’s head cut off” run and run?
There’s a vast difference between a conscious response and an autonomic nerve response. The mechanical gear needed for consciousness and sentience doesn’t show until late in pregnancy. The thalamus doesnt effect conscious response.
This is why it would help to read all of the posts from Doug and I…sentience is simply feeling, senses, sensate…what I believe you mean is sapience…self-awareness.
The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness; Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/8584/stuff/culturedef.html
The state of basic and/or undifferentiated consciousness; preliminary to but including the potential for reception and processing of sensation, perception, ideation, awareness of the quality of the experiential Unstructured available consciousness, includes the potential for the achievement of a state of conscious perception and the processing thereof.
gardenoflifetemple.com/02WhoWeAre/DefinitionsS.html
* Sentience is the capacity for basic consciousness
Sally, aside from the very obvious fact that the continuation of the species is reliant on the relationship and the fetus, pregnancy also gives women a general “boost” in endurance.
Remember blood doping? Athletes will sleep at high altitudes to increase the amount of erythropoietin in their blood streams and then harvest that blood and later inject themselves with it to increase performance.
During pregnancy, the body automatically produces extra erythropoetin in response to the presence of the zygote. This is why some women report feeling as though they can continue an activity for a longer period than prior to pregnancy.
For example, I was a runner. Although I would felt quite sleepy during my first trimester, when I would run I could literally run for hours. It was very noticeable to me because I knew what I “normally” felt like, and how different I felt at the time.
Granted, most women aren’t running marthons during pregnancy, but added endurance is a positive in any situation.
Mary-
haha! Well in jail apparently they only gave her “necessities” (who knows maybe for Paris that means a stylist?)
Madonna was controversial, but not nearly as reckless as Paris. Madonna was very political, Paris “forgot” to register to vote…
Uncomparable!
Mary, LOL!
Paris forgets her panties? True. I’m glad Madonna finally figured out that her underwear belongs underneath her clothing. lol!
Eh, if you look at Madonna before and now, I’d say she’s toned down a LOT! =) No more catsuits or conical bras, at least.
PIP, Madonna WAS reckless. She slept with half of Hollywood.
OOPS…I forgot to write, but people can change.
“PIP, Madonna WAS reckless. She slept with half of Hollywood.”
First of all, probably not truly “half.” Second, who cares if she had a lot of sex? Not I.
hal, I didn’t mean it literally, but she did play dirty. She stole her BFF, Sandra Bernhard’s girlfriend. Sandra caught them sleeping together. She also begged Dennis Rodman to impregnate her. She aborted Sean Penn’s baby. When Sean married and had a child of his own, Madonna sent him a gift with a note that read, “Silly boy. I would have given you a baby.” It was in the book.
At least she didn’t tape her sex escapades to be sold all over the internet.
No. However, she posed topless for Playboy.
I thought that the “One Night In Paris” tape was put on the market by accident. Her ex boyfriend had something to do with it, didn’t he?
It was released by her boyfriend but she made a ton of money off of it.
Heather and PIP
I believe her ex-boyfriend did put it on the internet, she definitely didn’t want him too. She was picked up for shoplifting when she stole a copy of the video on display at a local store. Like there weren’t a few million more out there. I don’t knew if she knew she was being taped, but I have to wonder about these idiots who deliberately tape their sexual exploits, and then whine when they end up on the internet. It certainly must occur to a person that there could be some risk involved in taping.
“She also begged Dennis Rodman to impregnate her”
okay, somethings are unforgivable. She’s off my xmas card list.
Why hal?
Compiled From News Services
MOBILE, Ala. — An abortion doctor who worked with a physician slain
in Florida in March by an anti-abortion protester was himself fatally
shot, officials said Sunday.
Police said the physician, Dr. George Wayne Patterson, 44, was shot to
death when he confronted a man breaking into his car. But they said they
did not know whether the killing was the result of a robbery or related
to Patterson’s work.
Patterson was killed Saturday night when he returned to his 1993 Cadillac
Eldorado in a parking lot near a bar and an adult movie theater, in the
city’s nightclub district. No one was arrested. “We’re not sure it was
a robbery or what it was at this time,” Allan Carpenter, a police
investigator, said Sunday.
The slaying did not appear to have any link to recent abortion clinic
shootings in Wichita, Kan., or Pensacola, Fla., authorities said.
Patterson was the owner of Pensacola Women’s Medical Services in
Pensacola. His colleague there, Dr. David Gunn, 47, was fatally shot
outside the abortion clinic in March as he arrived for work. Michael
Griffin is scheduled to go on trial Sept. 20 on murder charges in
connection with Gunn’s death. Patterson also had worked at clinics in
Fort Walton Beach, Fla., and in Mobile, where arson damaged the clinic
in 1990.
On Friday, Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon, 37, of Grants Pass, Ore., was
charged with attempted murder in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller at
an abortion clinic in Wichita. He was not seriously injured.
Patterson’s slaying happened in an area where “quite a few robberies”
have occurred, Carpenter said. Tom Mason, a businessman, told The
Mobile Register that two shots were fired. Then, he said, the gunman
opened the door of the Cadillac and took something from inside.
————————————————————————-
Hey, BTW, whatever happened to the trial of Michael Griffin? September
was long ago, but I’ve heard nothing.
Don Porter
================end material from Don Porter==================
Mary, I posted that for you. I meant to put it in the post below.
Thanks Heather,
This just further explains why the death of Patterson is hardly any mystery and highly unlikely to be the work of some conniving pro-lifers. This happens on our city streets all the time, and were it anyone but Patterson, no one would wonder why someone parking his very expensive car in a dangerous neighborhood at night attracted muggers, or how that someone got killed when confronting the muggers. Don’t tell that to some of the PC websites though, they consider this a mystery worthy of Sherlock Holmes.
Mary, I agree. It sure looks like robbery was the motive. Wrong place, wrong time.
Mary,
I think she did ended up making like 400 grand on it, but that might be from lawsuits.
Noooo…
Paris is on my ‘list of people who should never reproduce for the good of the gene pool’. Can’t she just, you know…eat through her daddy’s money and get fat that way? And maybe get another irritating little dog if she wants something to take care of? The woman has no sense of responsibility. She used fame to get out of a jail sentence, proving that she doesn’t take the time to take responsibility for her actions. That kid is going to be so messed up. She better have some Stephen Hawking-esque guy impregnate her to save the kid’s potential to reach beyond a 3rd grade reading level.
Man, I really, really dislike that lady.
Erin
You don’t like Paris do you? Now don’t argue with me, you don’t!
What? Where ever would you get that impression, Mary?
Heather, I’m just not a fan of Dennis Rodman. I can accept a wide range of personalities, but he just rubs me the wrong way.
MK: If I touch a fetus and it moves away from the touch, then a signal was given to the thalamus.
No, not necessarily. Not if it’s reflex action.
……
The thalamus must have sent it somewhere or the fetus couldn’t have moved. It must have FELT something, thus it was sentient. If it didn’t “sense” something, then it couldn’t have reacted. It must have been conscious or it would not have moved. You can call it reflex if you want, but it still means that the sense of touch is working and the fetus is reacting…hence it must be conscious. Bricks don’t move when you touch them.
Again, if it’s reflexive motion, then the thalamus isn’t even involved, let alone the parts of the brain dealing with conscious awareness.
……
I say it’s sentience. Show me where I’m wrong. What caused the child to react, if not it’s brain and nervous system?
First, we have to determine if it’s reflex or not. If it is, then no sentience is defined or implied by that.
OH SWEET. I just Googled “fetus reflexive motion” and the first thing that comes up is “Jill Stanek – Bourne on the Brian.”
Per the definition of “sentient,” more than the thalamus has to be involved – there needs to be some awareness, some mental recognition of it.
Doug
Sally: Am I the only one that thinks it might be a good idea for Hilton to grow up before having a child rather than intentionally using one to give the impression of being a responsible adult?
Sally – I agree. The timing of this is just suspicious to me. Feels like it’s bouncing from one extreme to what would be another extreme for Paris.
Doug
Heather and Hal,
There’s just something about a man who dresses up like a bride that strikes me as just a bit odd. Otherwise, I’m sure Dennis Rodman is just a regular guy.
She better have some Stephen Hawking-esque guy impregnate her to save the kid’s potential to reach beyond a 3rd grade reading level.
Ha! Go, Erin….
OwOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo
Hal, that’s fair enough. I like Dennis Rodman. I’ve got 2 of his books. I have no idea why I like the guy. Variety is the spice of life!
Doug,
The dismissal of fetal withdrawal from noxious stimuli as “only reflex” is a secondary inference that is naive unless one can confidently exclude suffering. Independent verification of that exclusion requires comprehensive understanding of the structure of pain pathways in the developing nervous system. Accepted correlations between structure and function in this context, however, are unreliable. How can aborted fetuses respond to touch before the “required” end organs develop?3 How can the essentiality of an intact cortex for the experience of pain be consistent with the reality of anencephalic infants?4 Two questions
So Doug,
Here’s my question…
The debate about personhood, has not been settled.
Not only can’t we agree on what personhood is (and when I say we I mean the scientific community, society, and you and I) but we can’t agree when a human being attains personhood.
As well, the debate on sentience in the fetus has not been settled. The greatest minds in the world cannot prove one way or another that a fetus is sentient as early as 7 weeks…
But there is compelling evidence that they might.
Are you prepared to err on the side of death, on the possibility that you are stripping a “person” of his or her rights, simply because there is not YET definitive proof of their sentience? Isn’t the fact the the jury is still out reason enough to err on the side of caution/life?
Are you truly comfortable with your ability to discern personhood, when all the scientists in the world cannot claim to do the same? Are you really that much more qualified than they are?
Find me a definitive article on what sentience is, when it begins, and that fetus’ do not fit this category. I don’t think you can…because no matter what I put in the search engine, be it sentience, fetal pain, reflex vs sentience…nothing definitive comes up. Most articles begin by saying “this is a controversial issue amongst the medical community…”
So why is Doug qualified to make the final judgment?
No.
The headless chicken has no thalamus at all, but is still running due to autonomic nerve responses.
This is the the same response generated when you do that gawd-awful pithed frog exeriment that I refused to do in High School Biology.
The structures required to perceive a stimulus and react to it do not exist until late in pregnancy.
Hi MK,
it seems that Laura wants these beings (babies/human-fetus) DEAD …. at all costs, no inquiry necessary. On top on the do-no-harm especially if the question is ‘ify’, there is a vast instinctual mechanism among humans to be protectors … of human life, of the environment, of all life … and, of the world itself. Part of this protective role ((whether doctors, police, soldiers or simple shepherds)) is to give extra protection to the most frail/vulnerable.
We yap on and on about human rights, yet never look at our responsibilities – shouldn’t we? This is a part of growing-up that seems to have been neglected by most abortion supporters. I suspect soon that Doug will attempt an argument that in supporting an abortion (a ‘valuation’ is being protected).
John,
I’m thinking that I’ll beat him to it…I was just about to post that Doug’s valuation is that the fetus is not sentient, while the scientific community’s valuation is that it is not qualified to make a definitive statement one way or the other.
It doesn’t really matter, because even if Doug concedes that sentience “might” be present, his argument will then revert to his valuation that even one “person” does not have the right to live off of another person phsically. (Except that he qualifies that by saying it doesn’t apply to conjoined twins because, get this, they are on the outside of each others bodies.
The real problem is that Doug doesn’t understand that some things are wrong simply because they are wrong and don’t need to be proved as such…my valuation to be sure…but just because your paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t after you. Just because it’s my valuation doesn’t mean it can’t be an external truth. Perhaps you and I just have “better’ valuations skills!
John, I agree. I thought PC meant: keeping the baby, aborting it, or placing it up for adoption. Some people [including Somg] are anti choice. Kill it, kill it!! That’s all you can do.
September 10th, 1945 finds a strapping (but tender) five and a half month old Wyandotte rooster pecking through the dust of Fruita, Colorado. The unsuspecting bird had never looked so delicious as he did that, now famous, day. Clara Olsen was planning on featuring the plump chicken in the evening meal. Husband Lloyd Olsen was sent out, on a very routine mission, to prepare the designated fryer for the pan. Nothing about this task turned out to be routine. Lloyd knew his Mother in Law would be dining with them and would savor the neck. He positioned his ax precisely, estimating just the right tolerances, to leave a generous neck bone. “It was as important to Suck-Up to your Mother in Law in the 40’s as it is today.” A skillful blow was executed and the chicken staggered around like most freshly terminated poultry.
Then the determined bird shook off the traumatic event and never looked back. Mike (it is unclear when the famous rooster took on the name) returned to his job of being a chicken. He pecked for food and preened his feathers just like the rest of his barnyard buddies.
When Olsen found Mike the next morning, sleeping with his “head” under his wing, he decided that if Mike had that much will to live, he would figure out a way to feed and water him. With an eyedropper Mike was given grain and water. It was becoming obvious that Mike was special. A week into Mike’s new life Olsen packed him up and took him 250 miles to the University of Utah in Salt Lake City . The skeptical scientists were eager to answer all the questions regarding Mike’s amazing ability to survive with no head. It was determined that ax blade had missed the jugular vein and a clot had prevented Mike from bleeding to death. Although most of his head was in a jar, most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body. Since most of a chicken’s reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem Mike was able to remain quite healthy.
In the 18 MONTHS that Mike lived as “The Headless Wonder Chicken” he grew from a mere 2 1/2 lbs. to nearly 8 lbs. In a Gayle Meyer interview Olsen said Mike was a “robust chicken – a fine specimen of a chicken except for not having a head.” Some longtime Fruita residents, gathered at the Monument Cafe for coffee, also remember Mike – “he was a big fat chicken who didn’t know he didn’t have a head” – “he seemed as happy as any other chicken.” Mike’s excellent state of health made it difficult for animal-rights activists to garner much of a following. Even now the town of Fruita celebrates Mike’s impressive will to live, not the nature of his handicap. Miracle Mike took on a manager, and with the Olsens in tow, set out on a national tour. Curious sideshow patrons in New York , Atlantic City , Los Angeles , and San Diego lined up to pay 25 cents to see Mike. The “Wonder Chicken” was valued at $10,000.00 and insured for the same. His fame and fortune would earn him recognition in Life and Time Magazines. It goes without saying there was a Guinness World Record in all this. While returning from one of these road trips the Olsens stopped at a motel in the Arizona desert. In the middle of the night Mike began to choke. Unable to find the eyedropper used to clear Mike’s open esophagus Miracle Mike passed on.
So, was Mike just acting on reflex?
MK,
Concerning the greatest minds being unable to determine the sentience of the 7 week fetus. Its not surprising, there’s really very little these “great minds” understand when it comes to the human brain and nervous system.
These are the same minds that can’t fathom how a French man with a skull full of fluid and little brain matter can function so normally.
These are the same minds who are trying to understand how a supposedly retarded and non-responsive child can play piano concertos.
These are the same minds who have only recently discovered that many “retarded” autistic children may in fact be highly intelligent, we just can’t figure out a way to determine this or reach them.
Isn’t it just amazing how very little we know or understand about the human brain and nervous system and how it works. MRI of the brain is opening a new world, and showing us how little we know, and just leaving us with more questions than there are answers.
When I worked with comatose patients, myself and other staff members would often dispute each other over movement that was just reflex or intentional. We were looking directly at the patient and couldn’t say for certain, but we “know” about a fetus we can’t look directly at? It may be we just don’t have the technology at this time to determine for certain just what fetal brain function there really is, just as at one time we did not have the MRI machine to provide us with more and better information on the brain.
So, was Mike just acting on reflex?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go get a picture of where a chicken’s ears are.
That moron didnt cut off Mike’s head, just his face. He didn’t even perform a chicken lobotomy, and I personally know a chicken that could use one…
Mary,
It may be we just don’t have the technology at this time to determine for certain just what fetal brain function there really is, just as at one time we did not have the MRI machine to provide us with more and better information on the brain.
Ahhhhh, but Doug knows.
The skeptical scientists were eager to answer all the questions regarding Mike’s amazing ability to survive with no head. It was determined that ax blade had missed the jugular vein and a clot had prevented Mike from bleeding to death. Although most of his head was in a jar, most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body
the question is, was Mike sentient or not?
Laura,
No.
The headless chicken has no thalamus at all, but is still running due to autonomic nerve responses.
It was determined that ax blade had missed the jugular vein and a clot had prevented Mike from bleeding to death. Although most of his head was in a jar, most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body.
Brain stem/thalamus
No, Heather, I am pro-choice. I do not favor forced abortions.
As a random point, how incapable do you have to be to mess up chopping off a chicken’s head?
Somg, no. In my opinion, you are not.
Erin,
Whoever the inept one was, we can only hope he won’t be fathering Paris’ baby.
Heather you are saying I am not pro-choice? Explain.
Where have you ever said that keeping a child or adoption would be okay?
Hi MK,
your ‘hypothesizing’ may not be that far off. When younger I had read a very detailed analysis of the meridian (acupuncture) system. To this day many orthodox practitioners refute its existence because it is for the most part undetectable by Western medical-research science … and don’t get me started on the chakra system. Some decades ago, a homeopathic doctor named Browett near Toronto), found a whole in-tact system on the skin tied to the hypothalmus totally unknown to any form of medicine West or East.
So please don’t be bullied. There is so much yet to learn about our physical bodies … it ain’t funny because being steadfast to ‘our'(Western) medicine is adherence to ignorance.
John,
I read somehwere that “eastern” doctors can diagnos like 20 or more diseases just by listening to your heartbeat. I agree. Western medicine has a long way to go before we know half of what the backward aborigines have known for centuries…
Heather, of course they’re ok if that’s what the pregnant woman wants.
Right-to-lifers want to force pregnant women to grow their pregnancies. The Chinese government wants to force pregnant women to have abortions. I think women who want to grow their pregnancies should grow their pregnancies, and women who want abortions should have abortions. Thus I stand in the exact middle of the debate. Pro-choice.
Grow their pregnancies? It’s not a plant.@@
MK: Here’s my question… The debate about personhood, has not been settled.
Not only can’t we agree on what personhood is (and when I say we I mean the scientific community, society, and you and I) but we can’t agree when a human being attains personhood.
Personhood is not a matter of science, MK. You want the unborn to be attributed personhood, I do not. Society does it at birth.
……..
As well, the debate on sentience in the fetus has not been settled. The greatest minds in the world cannot prove one way or another that a fetus is sentient as early as 7 weeks…
But there is compelling evidence that they might.
I disagree – again, the definitions I’ve seen and all the usages of the word in literature have mental awareness or consciousness as part and parcel of it.
……..
Are you prepared to err on the side of death, on the possibility that you are stripping a “person” of his or her rights, simply because there is not YET definitive proof of their sentience? Isn’t the fact the the jury is still out reason enough to err on the side of caution/life?
If this is still the hypothetical of me making the rules, then perhaps I should just state that mental awareness, consciousness, etc., are necessary for personhood to be attributed.
…….
Are you truly comfortable with your ability to discern personhood, when all the scientists in the world cannot claim to do the same? Are you really that much more qualified than they are?
Medical science has long been able to detect the organized patterns of brain waves related to sense perception, being “awake,” etc. “All the scientists” in the world don’t agree of terms and definitions, and there is much obfuscation at work. If the brain waves are there, they’re therre, and if not, then not. I’m fine with that.
…….
Find me a definitive article on what sentience is, when it begins, and that fetus’ do not fit this category. I don’t think you can…because no matter what I put in the search engine, be it sentience, fetal pain, reflex vs sentience…nothing definitive comes up. Most articles begin by saying “this is a controversial issue amongst the medical community…” So why is Doug qualified to make the final judgment?
You’re right that there is a lot of argument over it. Maybe I should go with “consciousness” per the brain waves rather than “sentient” if we can’t agree on what it means.
Doug
John: it seems that Laura wants these beings (babies/human-fetus) DEAD …. at all costs, no inquiry necessary. On top on the do-no-harm especially if the question is ‘ify’, there is a vast instinctual mechanism among humans to be protectors … of human life, of the environment, of all life … and, of the world itself. Part of this protective role ((whether doctors, police, soldiers or simple shepherds)) is to give extra protection to the most frail/vulnerable.
John, Laura is right about the headless chicken and autonomic nervous response.
……
We yap on and on about human rights, yet never look at our responsibilities – shouldn’t we? This is a part of growing-up that seems to have been neglected by most abortion supporters. I suspect soon that Doug will attempt an argument that in supporting an abortion (a ‘valuation’ is being protected).
What you want in no way is necessarily the “responsibility” of other people. Agreeing with you is not what “grown-up” means.
Doug
MK: I’m thinking that I’ll beat him to it…I was just about to post that Doug’s valuation is that the fetus is not sentient, while the scientific community’s valuation is that it is not qualified to make a definitive statement one way or the other.
No, MK, it’s not a valuation. It’s a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it’s not a valuation.
……..
It doesn’t really matter, because even if Doug concedes that sentience “might” be present, his argument will then revert to his valuation that even one “person” does not have the right to live off of another person phsically. (Except that he qualifies that by saying it doesn’t apply to conjoined twins because, get this, they are on the outside of each others bodies.
I’ve already said that for our hypothetical the right to life for the unborn is not absolute, even post-viability. If it comes down to the unborn versus the woman, then, short of the woman wanting the unborn to take precedence, I say she comes first.
You are also wrong about the twins. I didn’t say that.
……
The real problem is that Doug doesn’t understand that some things are wrong simply because they are wrong and don’t need to be proved as such…my valuation to be sure…but just because your paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t after you.
Translation: “I give up.”
…….
Just because it’s my valuation doesn’t mean it can’t be an external truth. Perhaps you and I just have “better’ valuations skills!
MK, the question remains if there is any proof of such an “external truth.”
Doug
Well, MK, it said:
most of his brain stem and one ear was left on his body. Since most of a chicken’s reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem Mike was able to remain quite healthy.
Doug,
It said brain STEM not brain…and our argument was whether or not a functioning thalamus, which is found in the brain stem, was proof of sentience.
But since we are switching terms (and I’ll hold you to that) to consciousness, the point is moot.
Please define consciousness…
Doug,
No, MK, it’s not a valuation. It’s a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it’s not a valuation.
How is that NOT a valuation…
You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the “valuation” that this was not a person…
On Siamese twins…
“In no way is this just “my valuation.” Society is saying it’s okay because the unborn are inside the body of a person. Of course some people, you included, disagree with this, but what I said is true – it makes a huge difference that the unborn are inside the body of a person, as opposed to not being there, i.e. born. With birth comes attribution of right to life, etc.”
This was in response to the argument we were having with Enigma about the Siamese twins…
I then asked you if it would be different if the babies were carried on the outside like marsupials, and you replied the woman could cut the cord…
Tell me though, if the child was on the outside of the mothers body only attached by a cord, but would die if that cord was cut, you still would not consider the child a person?
MK: It said brain STEM not brain…and our argument was whether or not a functioning thalamus, which is found in the brain stem, was proof of sentience.
MK, you asked if he was acting on reflex, and it said most of a chicken’s reflex actions are controlled by the brain stem, so Mike was okay. Sounds to me like reflex was the deal.
…..
But since we are switching terms (and I’ll hold you to that) to consciousness, the point is moot. Please define consciousness…
How about mental awareness of sensation – an alert cognitive state, as opposed to reflex and our friend autonomic response, courtesy of Laura?
There is “conscious being” and there is being “conscious of something.” I think the unborn, late enough in gestation, may be conscious of things, but they don’t have the self-awareness for real “conscious being,” same as for newborns.
Are true brainwaves there? Alpha, beta, delta, theta….
Doug
“No, MK, it’s not a valuation. It’s a deduction, estimation, inference, etc., but it’s not a valuation.”
How is that NOT a valuation… You have repeatedly stated that you believe lack of sentience is a go ahead to commit an abortion. You have determined sentience by estimating, inferring and deducing, but that estimating, inferring and deducing brought you to the “valuation” that this was not a person…
Saying the fetus is not sentient to a point in gestation is not a valuation. There can be valuing sentience, of course, but to determine sentience or not is looking at the facts of physical reality, not deeming any worth, not having any perception in the moral realm.
Doug
MK: On Siamese twins…
“In no way is this just “my valuation.” Society is saying it’s okay because the unborn are inside the body of a person. Of course some people, you included, disagree with this, but what I said is true – it makes a huge difference that the unborn are inside the body of a person, as opposed to not being there, i.e. born. With birth comes attribution of right to life, etc.”
This was in response to the argument we were having with Enigma about the Siamese twins…
I then asked you if it would be different if the babies were carried on the outside like marsupials, and you replied the woman could cut the cord…
Tell me though, if the child was on the outside of the mothers body only attached by a cord, but would die if that cord was cut, you still would not consider the child a person?
There’s not enough information there for me to say. I don’t see the cord or not, or dying or not if the cord was cut, as determining personhood. I’ve already said that I do see some personhood developing late in gestation, as the fetus becomes conscious, tending toward how most full-term, born babies are. That would be the same were the baby on the outside of the mother’s body.
The question of right-to-life remains, here, and it’s a different situation from most late-term pregnancies where delivery could end the pregnancy while preserving the baby’s life.
If the cord being cut means the baby dies, and the baby has the consciousness I describe, then it’s a tough question for me, since there is also the question of the woman’s body being used against her will, possibly.
Doug
moved dougs posts to the Hannity post.
How do pro-lifers deal with people like Paris Hilton, or worse, people who are, say, meth addicts who carelessly become pregnant? I’m not being acrimonious. I’m seriously questioning. What’s the answer when people have kids as accessories to be abandoned at their will, such as (dare I say) Britney Spears… Or worse, what about parents who are drug addicted… Wasn’t there a movie on this once? I’m not saying I encourage abortion. I just want to know what the answer is if a mother is without family or support and is deeply drug addicted and not seeking help and she’s pregnant? If she considers abortion is that her only moment of clarity? What if she refuses to seek help? What if her child is at serious risk inside her body? Do we wait until a horribly drug addicted child is born, possibly with birt defects, and see if she is decent enough to give the child up, hoping some kind family will take the drug addicted, suffering child? Again, I am seriously asking. I’m not saying she should abort, I just think this is a tough situation and I wonder if someone has thought this out and can give a good answer. Maybe there is no REAL happy ending in some cases. Hey, at least when it comes to Paris or Britney, as questionable as their parenting is, at least when they tire of their tiny “accessories” they can dump them off on hired help who probably offer better care than the biological parents…
Hi J’s mommy. I recommend a tubal ligation for women like that. I’m sure some will disagree with me, but that’s MY answer.
Hahaha…yes! Sterilize Paris Hilton!!
I get way too much pleasure out of this.
…oops. Sorry!
I understand and can’t say I disagree, but with the current system we have- that isn’t our choice, is it? Any other answers that deal with real options?
I understand, Heather, and can’t say I disagree, but with the current system we have- that isn’t our choice, is it? Any other answers that deal with real options? I know this is a hard one. And we totally all have our biases and ideals. I no less than you. I was just curious as to whether there was a good solution that can be implemented…?
J’s mommy,
The problems you mention are as old as the human race. In the perfect world children live idyllic lives with perfect parents. Drug addicts and alcoholics don’t have children. If only the world was perfect and problem free. The most planned, wanted, and perfect child can end up in some very bad circumstances. I’ve seen great kids come from terrible homes, and terrible kids come from great homes. How can we predict anyone’s life?
You may be too young to remember, but when the movement was on to legalize abortion, the American people were promised abortion would solve so many of the problems you mention. If abortion solves them, why do they even exist? Abortion has been legal 34 years.