Fetal pain: Brits discuss what we won’t
London’s The Daily Mail, followed a 16-year-old (photo right) aborting her 16-week baby and told their story in, “What REALLY happens during an abortion: One surgeon finally tells the truth,” October 12.
What a refreshingly honest article, which we are certainly unused to in the U.S. Part of it discussed fetal pain….
But in Britain… 200,000 abortions [were] carried out last year….
About 20,000 abortions a year are performed after 12 weeks – 10% of the total….
One of the most powerful pieces of anti-abortion propaganda ever produced was a 1984 film called The Silent Scream [see below], which purported to show the ultrasound image of a foetus being aborted – it’s mouth apparently wide open in agony.
In the mid-Nineties, partly in response to growing public concern about such issues, the RCOG [Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists] put together a panel of experts who came to the reassuring conclusion that the foetus couldn’t feel pain until 26 weeks gestation – safely beyond the abortion time limit.
They said the part of the brain that responds to pain simply isn’t developed at 26 weeks. In other words, any physical movements the foetus displays before then are purely reflex actions – the foetus is not aware and can’t feel anything.
But we found disturbing research in America that directly contradicts this established view. It came from Dr Sunny Anand, who has a distinguished record in helping to prove that very young babies can feel pain. When he was based at Oxford University in the 1980s his work helped to ensure that newborn babies were routinely given pain relief for surgical procedures.
His latest research is extremely technical and covers two areas. First, he’s been comparing how newborn babies and unborn foetuses react to any kind of stress, including pain.
He’s found similar changes in their hormones and their blood flow, suggesting that foetuses can indeed respond to pain.
Secondly, he’s been researching – using rats – exactly which parts of the developing brain are used to detect pain.
He says that while the adult uses the very top section of the brain, the foetus has the first flickerings of sensation in the area below that. Crucially, this part of the brain develops before 26 weeks.
His conclusions could have enormous consequences for the abortion debate. He told Dispatches: “I believe that foetuses can feel pain very likely by 20 weeks of gestation and possibly even earlier.”
Rosary Films made a high resolution version of The Silent Scream available via YouTube two months ago. It has been called “the most important video on abortion ever made.” The baby filmed while being aborted was only 12 weeks old. His or her heartrate went from a norm of 140 to 200 while being drawn and quartered, indicating the probability babies feel pain much earlier than 20 weeks.
View Part I, 5:24, here.
View Part II, 6:12, here.
Part III, 11:03, shows the actual abortion on ultrasound:
View Part IV, 5:19, here.
View Part V, 3:48, here.
Why do we give every benefit of doubt to animals feeling pain, and make every legal precaution, but not preborn humans?
[HT: moderator jasper]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Despite the “The Silent Scream” being discredited, and despite the heart rate not having anything necessarily to do with pain, Anand’s stuff is nothing new, and his opinion of pain at 20 weeks is certainly up for argument.
Doug
Silent Scream?
“The Facts Speak Louder than “The Silent Scream”
In the mid-1980s, leaders of the anti-abortion movement produced a video called The Silent Scream. The video, epitomizing the anti-abortion agenda and strategy, tried to shift the focus of the abortion debate away from compassion for the health and needs of the woman to an exaggerated concern for the fetus.
Although riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies as well as misleading statements and exaggerations, The Silent Scream is still wildly popular with anti-abortion zealots. And it continues to be a key tool in their propaganda efforts.
Originally designed to frighten American women away from choosing abortion, the video is now shown worldwide to troubled women who turn to so-called “crisis pregnancy centers” for assistance with their problem pregnancies. Clips from the film even run continuously on the World Wide Web.
As soon as it was released, Planned Parenthood
The birth process inflicts pain and trauma on the emerging fetus/infant.
When do we outlaw childbirth, or is it OK to inflict pain as long as it suits YOUR agenda?
Seriously, if you want to outlaw abortion because it MIGHT inflict pain on the fetus, you really should outlaw childbirth, which we KNOW causes extended pain and trauma to the fetus.
Doug,
you wrote:
Anand’s stuff is nothing new, and his opinion of pain at 20 weeks is certainly up for argument.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at October 15, 2007 7:03 AM
Why would anyone want to argue with Anand’s stuff?
Laura,
You wrote:
The birth process inflicts pain and trauma on the emerging fetus/infant.
Posted by: Laura at October 15, 2007 7:06 AM
I’m not being a smarty pants, but I haven’t heard this about the birth process. Where did you see that?
Doug and Laura,
While some say the Silent Scream is discredited, no one seems to say that it isn’t really an abortion or that the baby isn’t alive, moving etc.
The only difference seems to be the editorial comments.
The abortionist claims one view and PP another.
This is simple disagreement.
Totally OT, but I thought Jill’s regulars migh like to know that I’ve stumbled onto three abortion deaths in the US that I’d previously not known of, associated with RU-486.
I’m trying to track down more information.
The abortionist claims one view and PP another.
This is simple disagreement.
Posted by: hippie at October 15, 2007 7:42 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No.
Nathanson makes boneheaded remarks like suggesting the space between the fetus’ chin and torso is a screaming mouth. The innacuracies go on FOREVER.
An esteemed panel of experts found the entire piece absurd. (Silent Scream has been debunked many times by throngs of experts. I’m astonished anyone still believes this crap…)
Hippie, it’s an abortion and an alive fetus – no argument there.
Laura posted stuff about the movie, and off the top of my head, what I remember is that Nathanson claims a 12 week fetus “feels pain.” This is ludicrous. At the very least there is no such proof of it.
Also, the claim was made that the 12 week fetus made conscious attempts to move – again, at the least totally unproven.
He picks up this overly-large and overly-developed model at various times, pretending it represents the 12 week fetus.
In the film, Nathanson not only lies about what is known to be medical fact, and about organize crime being involved with providing abortions, he says he thinks that abortion is murder, yet he was involved in performing an abortion. Oh brother….. My opinion – the guy wanted to sell books, etc.
Some say that Nathanson made false claims when he was with PP, etc. Could be – he certainly has been false since.
Doug
Why would anyone want to argue with Anand’s stuff?
Hippie, because the question is open if what he talks about is actually mentally experiencing pain. Is there any emotion involved, etc?
Doug
“(1990):About 10,000 Americans each year lose their lives because of taking aspirin. These deaths are entirely separate from accidental overdose in children. Aspirin is the trade name for acetylsalicylic acid.”
“(1996): “Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States.” (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)”
Source: Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, “Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice,” Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438, from the web at http://www.acponline.org/journals/annals/15sep97/nsaid.htm, last accessed Feb. 14, 2001, citing Fries, JF, “Assessing and understanding patient risk,” Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.
Hippie, because the question is open if what he talks about is actually mentally experiencing pain. Is there any emotion involved, etc?
Doug
Posted by: Doug at October 15, 2007 8:14 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nathanson also claims that the fetus “fears” the cannula. (Do you suppose the fetus was afraid of the dark?)
Actually, during the birthing process the baby’s heart rate is closely monitored and if it seems to be in undue stress (raised rate that does not go down, or too much fluctuation) they prep the mother for emergency surgery and do a C-section – all for the health of the baby.
Labor and delivery do stress the baby – but since living in a post-term uterine environment is more harmful and potentially fatal, the benefit outweighs the risk of temporary stress.
I’m not aware that childbirth causes the baby extreme pain, however, and certainly not pain comparable to suffering chemical burns over 100% of their body or having limbs forcibly removed. Can you send me link to that study?
Doug,
This from the JAMA,
“No human studies have directly examined the development of thalamocortical circuits associated with pain perception. The developmental age at which thalamic pain fibers reach the cortex has been inferred from studies of other thalamocortical circuits, which may or may not develop at the same time as thalamic fibers mediating cortical perception of pain.”
___________________________________
To me this says we don’t understand completely the relationship between brain development and pain.
To the question of pain relief, we can choose to offer pain relief because someone may feel pain or we can choose not to offer it because they may not feel pain.
I was offered epidural anesthesia during childbirth although I didn’t have pain. Other people do however.
I think offering pain relief is appropriate if there is some possibility of pain.
Forget about fetal pain. Forget about “screams” and air intake. Forget about sentience.
How can you look at that video, see a living creature having it’s limbs ripped off and it’s head imploded and defend your position?
Ten bucks says if that was a video of puppies, you’d all be up in arms!
I still wonder what anyone thinks of the exception for an abortion based on the mother’s psychological health when there is not evidence of benefit to psychological health.
It doesn’t matter if the baby was actually screaming or not. He/she appeared to be. It’s still a live ultrasound of an abortion, and it’s very upsetting.
Firstly, most abortions happen before week 16, so still before the “pain” barrier.
Secondly, increase in heart rate, and other physical reactions are NOT the same as feeling pain. if you cut into a tree, sap flows, and it tries to cover the wound, then heals. it reacts to the damage. Does this mean trees FEEL PAIN?
Jonathan, does this mean you are comparing the unborn with trees?
Carrie; No, im using an example to illistrate a point. our bodies react to fix us even if we dont feel pain. have you ever cut yourself and not known it? i have many times….. my body still reacted tho, and healed itself.
Jonathan,
What about offering pain relief because there may be pain?
Even though I didn’t actually have pain, I was offered pain relief for the possibility of pain.
What is wrong with offering pain relief given the possibility of pain?
Hippi:
nothing is wrong with it. im merely saying the “pain” argument in general is flawed since even with the new study, most abortions happen well before that. and that a physical reaction can be reflex, not feeling.
Hippie, exactly. Why not offer pain relief? Both sides can site studies to prove their point regarding pain or lack thereof. Why not give the unborn the benefit of the doubt in this regard?
“Secondly, increase in heart rate, and other physical reactions are NOT the same as feeling pain”
How about feeling fear then? WHY would the baby’s heartrate go up????? Think people!
Anon;
your heart rate goes up when you are injured to increase blood flow and quickly clot the wound. its a physical reaction, same as you get when you hit your knee and your leg kicks.
Anonymous,
Another anonymous is already using your name…and trust me. You don’t want to be confused with her.
Well let’s look at two topics in context.
A woman goes for an abortion of a 24 week fetus which she gets because protecting her mental health is an exception to the ban on late term abortions even though there really isn’t good scientific evidence that the abortion will protect her mental health. (The studies that do exist show a deliterious effect on mental health)
While she is there she is not offered pain relief for the fetus even though there is some scientific evidence that the baby will feel pain.
I think that if we can allow an exception for mental health without scientific evidence of benefit, then we should offer pain relief based on some evidence that it does exist.
I know many believe that she may somehow get a mental health benefit even though the evidence is lacking.
However, I would add that belief is the realm of religion, not science.
“I think that if we can allow an exception for mental health without scientific evidence of benefit, then we should offer pain relief based on some evidence that it does exist.”
Yes Hippie, I agree…any sane, reasonable person would agree. I’m interested to see what the pro-aborts think about this.
I wonder if Hal will avoid this video too.
There argument for the presence or absence of pain has nothing whatsoever to do with pain! If the baby feels pain during an abortion than that makes the baby more “human” to people and weakens the pro-abort argument that it is just an embryo/zygote/collection of cells or whatever their latest euphemism happens to be. If the baby feels pain and mothers are given an option of pain reliever for the baby while it is being ripped apart that makes the baby more human to them as well which makes them think twice and possibly find another way of dealing with the situation, like actually carrying to term, which means that PP loses out on money. If they can force people to believe that the baby doesn’t feel itself being ripped limb from limb and that the movement away from the source of the “pain” is random and not instinctive then they can also keep them believing that they aren’t killing a human being and they have won. So, really, it’s not about whether the child feels pain. It’s about the Joe Q. Publics understanding of what the baby experiences during an abortion that is important here.
Since the tree analogy didn’t go over so well how about this.
A parapalegic has no feeling in his extremities. Does this then make it acceptable to do surgery on him without any kind of anesthegia? Does this than make it acceptable to rip off his arms and legs just b/c they are extraneous and he seems to be extraneous b/c of course what kind of life can he live being confined to a wheelchair?
sam, good point!
Why do pro aborts think that everything we post is fake? I just don’t get it. Anything to avoid the truth, I guess. I can tell you that the ultrasound is an actual ultrasound of a pregnancy. How? I’ve had a few of them! That’s what it looks like! Mine didn’t look any different.Now, I don’t know about anybody else, but I saw a baby. I saw something in the uterine cavity, and it pulled the baby apart. The baby disappeared, peice by peice. Ah, Dr. Nathanson was an abortionist. How would you have prefered him to describe it? We have even put up a video of a lady, spread eagle, with an actual abortion in progress. What more do you want?
Heather;
I have seen explosions on movies and people ripped apart. it all looked exactly like a real explosion, and real death…. but it wasnt.
arent computers amazing?
Sam; According to the RN i ask, when they operate on a paraplegics legs, he is usually under sedation, not to avoid physical trauma but mental trauma. Imagine knowing how bad something should hurt, but not feeling it at all.
Jon, what do you think an abortion would look like?
Jon, Is “Life In the ER” fake as well?
Honestly couldnt tell you. being a man and all, i cant have one, and my wife would never have one. so i dont know.
my point is, that if i DID know, i could make a video like that one. i DO know what it looks like when a bomb goes off, and what it looks like when people die. and modern movies are VERY realistic.
Heather, i dont know what the show is…. so i cant tell you.
Fetal pain is a periphery issue. If you anesthetized me before ripping off my limbs, you’d still be a murderer.
Whether a first trimester baby feels pain is irrelevant to the fact that he/she is killed by an abortion.
It may make those who kill their own children feel better to think that their babies didn’t feel pain during the abortion- but they are were still killed.
Hippie and MK,
I totally agree with you. I just watched this for the first time and I was literally sick to my stomach. For what I had done and for what I just saw done.
Semantics, semantics, semantics. I don’t care if that child felt pain or not. It was alive in there one moment and without a head the next. I truly don’t know how anyone can look at that video and not be disgusted.
I know if I had seen just the footage of the woman having an abortion with her shaking and the blood and the doctor shoving those things in her, I would never have had an abortion. But, obviously, seeing the baby (at 2 1/2 inches) ripped from his mother was so much worse.
I am sick today. And so very, very sad.
Jacqueline,
Awesome point!!
BTW, I was anon.
fresa, I really feel bad for you. Have you ever sought help?
MK,
Good point. If someone tore a newborn puppy (eyes still closed) apart they would certainly be jailed for animal abuse. A story recenctly unfolded where I live that profiled a guy who’s dog delivered I think 10 puppies. He was caught breaking their necks one by one and throwing them in a dumpster. I’m sure he did it quick so it was painless for the pups.
How do you PCers feel about that? Should he have been jailed?
I can’t wait to hear your answers.
Sandy, hi! I can tell you of one sickening thing. My state punishes animal abusers worse than they do baby killers. Both should be punished, but why is animal cruelty worse than killing a newborn?
Hi Heather!
Our society has been so brain washed into devaluing human life. My friend in jr. high had a dog which was never fixed. I found out her dad would take the newborn puppies put them in a gunny sack and take them to the river and throw them in. I wonder what type of sentence he would have gotten if someone turned him in.
Another friend I had in college lived on a farm. Her dad used to take all of the kittens born to the “barn cats” and put them in a gunny sack and tie it to the back of the exhast pipe from one of their trucks.
I wonder what type of trouble he would be in today if someone found out what he was doing.
Laura,
I think you should lobby to be present at an abortion. Ask for the abortionist to pull nearly viable (but still young enough to be aborted)baby from the womb and then have him tear it apart limb from limb while you are watching. Since you are such a staunch supporter of this type of murder, why not experience it for real? You seem to talk such a good game.
Sandy, I’ll just bet that Laura isn’t tolerant of any sort of animal abuse.
Pain management should be taken into consideration in dealing as humanely as is reasonably possible with any health issue, but the premeditated, deliberate taking of an innocent human life AT ANY STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT is MURDER, whether or not the law acknowledges it or not, whether or not the victim can feel pain, and should not be legal.
The abortion cartel and their supporters couldn’t care less about any pain they don’t feel themselves. So what if you prove beyond dispute that an 8-week child feels pain? They don’t care; they will go right on killing as many as possible because they are about shedding innocent blood, making money, etc., and making up any excuse to justify their continued slaughter of innocent little boys and girls, and exploitation and reckless endangerment of their mothers. It’s just who they are. Lying, calloused, self-obsessed, self-serving, hatemongering, manipulative, murdering SCUM.
Nobody in the prodeath movement gives a rip about pain; it’s just a useful tool to manipulate public opinion in their favor.
Here it is in their own words:
“The authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death.”
Heather:
No, I have never sought help, I don’t really know what a therapist could do or say to make me feel better (no disrespect meant, I am a social worker). I know what I did, I know it was wrong, and I am trying to live a better life now.
Contrary to what it would seem like by my posts, I am not walking around sulking and depressed. It does make me sad to revisit the abortion, but prior to the PP opening down the street, I didn’t spend a lot of time dwelling on it.
But I believe in honesty and hope that just one woman will think twice about having an abortion after hearing my story. That is part of my healing.
fresa, thanks. It’s understandable.
fresa, we are glad to have you on our side! You can be a great voice too.
I think offering pain relief is appropriate if there is some possibility of pain.
Hippie, agreed, fine by me. And you’re right there is much we still don’t know.
Doug
I still wonder what anyone thinks of the exception for an abortion based on the mother’s psychological health when there is not evidence of benefit to psychological health.
Hippie, a given woman may know full well that ending the pregnancy is the best thing for her. The vast majority of studies show a positive outcome for having abortions.
In cases where the woman ends up regretting the abortion on balance and/or feeling “bad” it’s normal for her to have had emotional problems beforehand. I can post the results again, but it makes sense that while there are those who may be at increased risk for psychological problems, there are also those that are not, and who simply are making their best choice.
Doug
Sam: A parapalegic has no feeling in his extremities. Does this then make it acceptable to do surgery on him without any kind of anesthegia?
I don’t see why not. Let the doc decide.
……
Does this than make it acceptable to rip off his arms and legs just b/c they are extraneous and he seems to be extraneous b/c of course what kind of life can he live being confined to a wheelchair?
Nope.
Doug
I’m not sure who those “proabort,” people you speak of are, or if in fact they exist at all. I’ve never met one.
However, I’m willing to weigh in as a someone who is pro-CHOICE if that will do.
(A) There is NO PAIN felt by the fetus until likely well over 20 weeks (more like 26ish). Debating something that is scientific fact is basically a waste of time and energy. Fetal development is an area that is well studied. As most of you can likely appreciate, life-saving surgeries are now performed in utero on fetuses well into 20 weeks WITHOUT PAIN MEDICATIONS. Ditto with the cleft surgeries and other more life enhancing operations. Why? See above comment regarding the knowledge of fetal brain development.
(B) I’m not sure how or why a comparison was made to abortion and murdering full-term puppies (or ripping their eyes out or somesuch nonsense) but there really is NO comparison. First off, we are talking unborn vs. born and if you really want to go the PETA route, oftentimes animals which are spayed are ALSO pregnant at the time, ending in the abortion of whatever fetuses they are carrying.
(C) Mutilating handicapped people isn’t even in the same REALM as abortion. Do you guys really fall off the deep end so often and so easily?
(D) It’s pretty amazing to me that supposed “pro-life” doctors perform what they feel is “murder” in order to prove a point. More so, I’m impressed (and disgusted) that they seem to be able to film all of these tiny body parts relatively whole as they do it. I miscarried a baby at 14 weeks and found nothing but clots and blood.
Which actually brings me to the blood part. In all of abortion videos there seems to be a great deal of blood…and yet absolutely no concern for the woman having the abortion. No, they are simply close range shots of vulvas and opened cervixes.
As for people who abort at 24 weeks…the misconception being touted here is that due to emotional stress a woman would be able to seek and have an abortion that late along. That is a complete fallacy. Abortions are NOT performed that late unless there are serious reasons for doing so.
Regardless of the advanced technologies being made in the field of fetology, whether it be 4D ultrasound, or proof of fetal pain, the feminists and the abortion INDUSTRY will come up with ways to discredit all of it in the name of being an attempt to outlaw abortion and to protect womens rights. They will always have pro-abortion “experts” deny what they don’t want women to know.
It’s all about money anyway and no concern for women at all. They all suddenly disappear when women die as a result of botched LEGAL abortions, or when overwhelming evidence of the true nature of the industry is exposed…and every day, more and more of it is being exposed.
Gee…is it any WONDER why there are fewer and fewer doctors doing abortions? Their dirty secrets are all being told, and they can’t face the truth.
Mobius,
As for people who abort at 24 weeks…the misconception being touted here is that due to emotional stress a woman would be able to seek and have an abortion that late along. That is a complete fallacy. Abortions are NOT performed that late unless there are serious reasons for doing so.
You’re wrong about that…Just as Mr. Tiller.
So we fake abortion pictures and videos?
Why?
MK, I’m actually NOT wrong about it. There are quite severe restrictions on abortions past 24 weeks and they are (in comparison to first trimester abortions) rarely performed. Even when the mother’s life is at risk. That’s not only a statistical fact, but something I went through personally.
If you want to disagree on ideology, that’s fine. Yet you and I likely do not even diverge in that area. I haven’t had an abortion, and I wouldn’t, even when my own medical team tried to convince me otherwise at every step when I was pregnant with my second child. Which they had every right to do, as in my case to carry that pregnancy was a continuous significant risk to my life.
But you see, that was MY choice. Choice is a two way street and I am very thankful for that.
Yet, unlike you, I will always staunchly protect a woman’s right to make her own decision. Regardless of horrific video clips and debates over religious beliefs. It’s not for me to impose my own belief system and feelings upon another. I’m a very spiritual person, although not a Christian. I don’t have every answer regarding God…none of us do, but I’m pretty certain that I’m NOT God.
Perhaps a more productive conversation would be how do we ensure that women of all socioeconomic classes are given the information and availability of contraception they need in order to avoid unwanted pregnancies? Certainly the current abstinence policies have been shown to be completely ineffective in stopping unwanted pregnancies, especially amongst the very young and the very poor.
In addition, it seems ridiculous to me that *all* of the responsibility for birth control generally sits on the shoulders of women, women who some later judge quite harshly should they decide to terminate a pregnancy. When you hold men accountable for their own actions (or inactions) when posters on these pages start demanding those men to be jailed, or stand outside of places they may congregate and call them whores etc., well then perhaps your endeavor won’t seem quite as misogynistic as it currently does.
Women in this country and in others have died horrific deaths in their attempts to abort illegally. Now you can certainly toss cases of women who *do* abort frequently, just as we can attack welfare because a very miniscule minority of women do have multiple births with the thought that the government will provide for them. No system is perfect. However, the women who die in these tragedies are oftentimes either very young, or mothers themselves unable to care for yet another child. They make their own choices…and those choices are not mine to make for them. Or yours.
I do have a question though, for anyone who would care to answer. Since those in this forum seem so protective of the unborn, what are you folks thinking and doing about the current S-CHIP veto fiasco?
I pettitioned and marched, and hope it helps. I can’t imagine that such a Pro-Life President is willing to stand by and watch an entire group of children denied basic medical care.
I think the veto was good, because the bill would expand CHIP too much to people who don’t need the help from the government. What I would really like to see is a functional bill (not pie-in-the-sky) addressing American’s needs to separate health insurance from employment. (And NOT Hillarycare, Romneycare, et. al.)
Per Mobius:
It’s not for me to impose my own belief system and feelings upon another.
OK, so do you agree with genital mutilation of women? Do you agree with China’s abortion policy? Do you agree with stoning a woman to death for being raped? Do you agree with a woman being stoned to death for having an affair outside of marriage?
These are all belief systems. I guess you think all of these are ok too.
You need to do your homework on the S-CHIP program and quit listening to the MSM and the politacals out to stomp over Bush at every turn. President Bush vetoed it becuase it was too expansive. It is a close step to socialized medicine.
@ Mobius,
I think Sandy just really got started. ALL law is an imposition on choice… from child abuse, rape … even crossing-on-a-red-light; etc …. impose a restriction on would-be perpetrators. Laws can also be perceived as guidance. For many (if not most PC’ers) laws pertaining to abortion are restrictions … aka Doug’s line ::: ‘to not hamper the freedoms that a woman enjoys.’ Most PL’ers see the very same laws as guidance to be more human … and in the case of Roe vs Wade (a bad law); as guidance into license … not at all a good place. I think you like (or, do you?) the freedoms gained via legal restrictions and abhor caprice … even fully intentioned wrongheadedness.
? ?????????? ???????????? ???? ????? ?????? ????????????: ??? ????????? ? ???????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ?????? ???????? ??? ???. ?? ??? ?? ???????????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????????, ?? ??? ?????? ??????????? ? ??? ?????????, ??? ????????, ?????????, ????????? ????? ? ?.?. ? ?.?. ?????? ?????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ????????? ???????. ?????? ? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ? ??????.
????????? ????????????
Hi
Bye
You can make new friends, find the hottest singles.
Join today and make a hot new connection tonight
bad boy
“What I would really like to see is a functional bill (not pie-in-the-sky) addressing American’s needs to separate health insurance from employment.”
Agree. The problem though would be that *most* people cannot afford individual or small group health insurance rates. The entire system needs to be reworked from the bottom up, and in the meantime, CHIP is all that is actually available to the children of lower and moderate income working class.
Sandy I would reply, but it’s too obvious that not only are you incoherent but illiterate too. I can’t even make heads or tails about what your rant concerns. Perhaps you should actually try reading my response before replying to it.
BTW, in my mind forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child is no different than clidoridectomy and all forms of FGM. It’s all imposing the BELIEF SYSTEMS of someone else upon the woman in question.
You just argued my side of the argument, thanks.
@Mobius,
Strange attacks directed at Sandy! YOU, I’m afraid are the ignorant/silly one, if you do not understand Sandy’s post! A laissez-faire attitude to abortion restriction IS philosophically attempting to spread ignorance, not tolerance. [And I did read your post … while there is little doubt that you are clever and have much education, you lack even a small amount of wisdom … I pity your patients!]
“A laissez-faire attitude to abortion restriction IS philosophically attempting to spread ignorance, not tolerance.”
Actually, that’s your opinion, not a fact. As I was trying to convey in my post there comes a time when fact does need to be parsed out from fiction, or any personal or subgroup schemata.
You can *feel* that supporting choice is philosophically spreading ignorance. Feeling are valid and, of course, important. However when you try to impose your belief system upon others it loses that validity and instead becomes oppressive.
For the most part, those who are pro-choice do not impose their belief systems upon others and we allow each individual woman to make her own decision.
I notice that no one over here bothered to reply to my questioning a man’s responsibility in any of this, nor did anyone comment regarding the need for available contraception.
Interesting.
As interesting is something I read in another blog recently that questioned the Truism of Pro-Life stance when rates of allowable miscarriage range from estimates of 20% to upwards of 80% in the first trimester. Most of which are systematically ignored by the medical profession as the women are told “these things just happen,” “it’s nature’s selection,” and “try again.” Where is your moral outrage at this? For certainly if, as you claim, human life begins at conception than this long ignored “non-issue,” should be an enormous issue to you. No?
In addition, I’m rather horrified at the S-CHIP detractors on this board. So we must protect the unborn more than the born?
Mobius: In addition, it seems ridiculous to me that *all* of the responsibility for birth control generally sits on the shoulders of women, women who some later judge quite harshly should they decide to terminate a pregnancy. When you hold men accountable for their own actions (or inactions) when posters on these pages start demanding those men to be jailed, or stand outside of places they may congregate and call them whores etc., well then perhaps your endeavor won’t seem quite as misogynistic as it currently does.
Mobius, great posts from you.
I imagine that many pro-lifers don’t think much of men who would favor women having abortions after the men didn’t use birth control. Yet the bottom-line decision is the woman’s and the “responsibility” is hers, and it’s to what she wants, not to what the man wants (beyond where she’s agreeable to it) and not to what pro-lifers want, either.
Even if it’s subconsciously, I think pro-lifers realize this, and thus look to the woman in the matter.
Doug