Woman gets 15 years for 2nd degree murder of her preborn baby
They are calling this an unprecedented legal decision.
On December 21, 31-year-old Theresa Lee Hernandez was sentenced to 15 years in prison in an Oklahoma court after pleading guilty to 2nd degree murder for causing her 8-month-old baby’s stillbirth in 2004 by using methamphetamine while pregnant.
It means the very same intentional killing of a preborn baby by her mother can now go one of three legal ways. The mother can be 1) escorted into an abortion mill to legally abort, sometimes having it paid for by taxpayers; 2) prosecuted for committing an illegal self-abortion; or 3) prosecuted for causing her baby’s en utero death by abuse….
“Medical experts” argued, according to the Associated Press, that “shifting pregnancy loss from a medical arena to a criminal one ‘has devastating implications for maternal and fetal health.'”
I don’t know of anything more devastating to fetal health than fetal death. Would these “experts” use the same logic were a mother to kill her postborn child?
What is actually devastating for the other side is this new variety of legal decision considering preborn persons.
One solid point their amicus brief to the court did make:
The risk of criminal prosecution thus may induce drug-using women who become pregnant to avoid any potential criminal prosecution by having an abortion.
But it is likely the very same “experts” decrying this decision, comprised of “national physicians, nurses, counselors, social workers, public health practitioners, and their professional associations,” also support taxpayer funded abortions of indigents, rendering their concern quite hollow.
Further, in no other arena do we fail to create or enforce laws for fear they will be circumvented.
[HT: moderator jasper]
No matter which way they try to spin it, a child is being killed. Like you said, they throw mothers under the bus when they kill there 2 or 3 month old baby, how is this any different?
I’m surprised they charged her – after all it was her “choice”.
Was her sentence affected by illegal drug use? She’d have to have been pretty messed up in the first place to be on meth. Maybe she didn’t even know she was pregnant.
No. This is bad. Charge the woman on whatever you want to for the meth use. But you can’t charge her for that. It circumvents current laws. And even so, it certainly shouldn’t be murder 2. Involuntary manslaughter at MOST.
This will insure that women using drugs while pregnant won’t seek treatmen.
It’s much like the time Pennsylvania decided to pursue the mothers of “safe-haven” babies who tested positive for controlled substance. It suddenly was in some mother’s best interest to start pitching babies into dumpsters again. Strangely, that’s just the way it worked out.
By the way, if a women chooses poor nutrition and her fetus dies from complications of maternal diabetes or the mother’s anorexia, will she be sent to prison also?
I would love to see this murderous mom executed in a painful manner and in front of a large audience made up of members of the community she lived in.
That’s also what God would want to see happen in order to bring about justice for that innocent baby.
“You shall give life for life.” — God speaking of criminal justice
I would love to see this murderous mom executed in a painful manner and in front of a large audience made up of members of the community she lived in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“…And they will know we are Christian
By our love, by our love-
They will know we are Christian by our love”
Laura
Zeke does not represent the “Christian” viewpoint. Nor does God want to see the woman executed for what she’s done. God’s justice is also his mercy and only He knows the true extent of her culpability. She has an addiction. Likely her jail term will allow her to clean up and maybe have a second chance at life.
Laura & Patricia – Yes Zeke does represent the Christian viewpoint. God’s justice demands that people who take an innocent life be swiftly and painfully executed.
Great verse Zeke! Perhaps you two ladies should get familiar with Ezekiel 13:19 – “And will you profane Me among My people…killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”
Quit trying to be nicer than God!
Thanks for the support Dani!
Hey Laura!! The most loving thing you can do in response to a murder is to surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly execute the murderer.
Its because of biblically illiterate and anti-justice promoting “Christians” like yourself Laura that potential criminals don’t fear being punished for their CRIMES since you and so many other nicer-than-God types claim that convicted murderers, rapists, kidnappers and adulterers ought to be coddled and taken care of in prisons at taxpayer expense (aka through stealing from taxpayers).
Don’t treat murderers and excuse their crimes by saying crap like “they’re addicted”, execute them and give others a strong reason not to do drugs while carrying their baby.
Zeke, Dani, read what Apostle Paul wrote about how God repaid him for the murders of Christians that he committed before he was converted:
12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
More:
15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners
Patricia said:
“God’s justice is also his mercy and only He knows the true extent of her culpability.”
What a bunch of meaningless nonsense! God’s justice is His mercy? Not quite! God never says anything like that ever. God actually says clearly that it is WRONG to show mercy to murderers and let them live.
And God has not been ambiguous on what should be done to murderers – they must be brought to trial and upon conviction executed. America needs to see justice and not just think of it as some fairytale or hypothetical possibility.
Hey Laura!! The most loving thing you can do in response to a murder is to surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly execute the murderer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Certainly you feel the same way about the terrorists that torched the three clinics in New Mexico this month?
Can we swiftly and painfully execute them?
Another perspective on murderers, Zeke and Dani:
1 John 3:15
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
Its because of biblically illiterate and anti-justice promoting “Christians” like yourself Laura
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m not a Christian.
Heck, you’d LOVE my version of what we should do to Eric Rudolph. It’s pretty bent…
Actually, Zeke and Dani seem pretty tense.
Perhaps some Proverbs might help them:
Proverbs: 31 6-7
Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
Bethany – Does God want all convicted murderers to live or die?
Laura – If you’re not a Christian, then you have no authority to quote Scripture or speak on God’s behalf.
I suggest Zeke that you spend some time meditating on the fact that God’s justice is His mercy. Think about a situation where a person goes to Hell. An unrepentant sinner goes to Hell, that is the teaching of my faith, the Catholic church. God does not send a person to Hell, the person chooses Hell because He cannot bear the goodness of God etc. When we die, we see all our actions in the truth of God. We know where we erred and where we did good. For the first time our souls are free of the influence of our body.
Therefore, a truly evil person would actually shun Heaven.
This is just and God’s justice is perfect, but it is also merciful, because this person can never exist in the purity of Heaven.
As for God demanding the execution of a murderer here on earth – that is nonsense! We have no right to take a life of a murderer unless there is no way of protecting society from the further actions of such a person. And we are quite capable of incarcerating people today. God is the arbiter of life and death. Executing them also precludes the fact that this person may some day repent and therefore be saved. There are many criminals in American jails who may repent before their death.
We have our own fiends here in Canada too – Clifford Olson, Paul Bernardo, and that Picton fellow. There are days when I could maybe make an exception for these 3 but otherwise I’m against the death penalty…
Laura – If you’re not a Christian, then you have no authority to quote Scripture or speak on God’s behalf.
Posted by: Dani at December 27, 2007 5:28 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You funny…
Actually, I can quote scripture as often as I like, and according to my friends – who, by the way, are REAL Christians – NO ONE is to speak on God’s behalf, except for maybe… GOD.
Hey Bethany, you can pretend as if you’re no longer biblically illiterate, but responses like this from you show that you are still a biblically illiterate girl.
If God has picked out this murderous mom for a specific purpose to serve Him in a way like He picked out Paul from his mother’s womb (Gal 1:15) then I am sure that God can find a way to get this murderous mom out into the public so she can preach whatever new message God wants to commit to her as He did with Paul (having given to Paul the “house rules of the grace of God” Eph 3:2).
And just because God SPECIFICLY INTERCEDES to prevent justice from being carried out for one murderer DOES NOT MEAN that God does not want murderers to be justly punished.
God revealed SPECIFICLY to David that he would not be executed for his capital crimes of murder and adultery, but the law was still carried out in the land for all convicted murderers and adulterers. Same with Gomer when God kept that adulterer from being executed.
Man does not have the authority from God to spare a convicted murderer from being executed since Genesis 9:6 to the present. It was God’s idea and universal command to all human governments to execute murderers. You and everyone else should except God’s response to murder and not claim that you know better or are wiser than God when it comes to dealing with convicted murderers.
FYI – you are using a bad translation of 1 Timothy 1:15. It does not say that Paul was the “worst sinner”, the Greek clearly says that Paul was the first sinner in order. Its a fact that there were many who were by far worse sinners than Paul was, so its not plausible that he would consider himself the worst sinner.
He is the first member of the Body of Christ and as a result everyone who is saved after him is saved in the same way – by being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ apart from any water baptism or any other work. Basicly, the Greek word protos means first in order, not the worst sinner. Paul is the first member of the Body of Christ and in that way he is the pattern of salvation for all who believe. Just believe the gospel and as a result be baptized into the Body of Christ through the action of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13; Eph 1:13-14).
Jill, this is a great topic – kudos to you for picking it. Lots of good comments and stuff that makes one think.
Doug
“Man does not have the authority from God to spare a convicted murderer from being executed since Genesis 9:6 to the present. It was God’s idea and universal command to all human governments to execute murderers.”
Come on Zeke – I thought God went to counseling in between the OT & NT to get in touch with His feminine side and become more “loving,” tolerant and forgiving of sinners.
He is the first member of the Body of Christ
That is interesting. I have never heard that before.
What is your take on the people who believed on Christ before His death? Are they not also part of the body of Christ? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.
Very curious about your perspective, Zeke.
Come on Zeke – I thought God went to counseling in between the OT & NT to get in touch with His feminine side and become more “loving,” tolerant and forgiving of sinners.
He was always loving, tolerant, and forgiving of sinners who repented. In the Old testament and the New. And granted, the Old testament can be twisted to say differently. Believe me, I’m well aware.
But time and time again, a person in the Old Testament repents of his sins, and God, in his great mercy and compassion, forgives them of their sins and spares them judgment that was coming for them!
Zeke, Dani, can you not think of any situations in the Old Testament where God forgave sinners for murder, idolatry, adultery, etc, and spared them certain judgment because of their repentant heart? I can point you to many, many of them.
Why do you assume forgiveness is a feminine trait?
Laura said:
“Certainly you feel the same way about the terrorists that torched the three clinics in New Mexico this month?
Can we swiftly and painfully execute them?”
If their crime of arson resulted in the death of an innocent person then they must be broughtn to trial and upon conviction executed.
If all they did was damage to buildings then they should be made to pay restitution.
Bathany continued to show her lack of intelligence by saying:
“Another perspective on murderers, Zeke and Dani:
1 John 3:15
15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:”
Are you saying that “hating your brother” is a crime that should be punished Bethany? Or, do you have enough intelligence to distinguish between SIN and CRIME where only CRIMES can be punished through evidence brought forth in trial?
Patricia said:
“I suggest Zeke that you spend some time meditating on the fact that God’s justice is His mercy. Think about a situation where a person goes to Hell.”
No, I will not think of such a situation since WE ARE TALKING SPECIFICLY ABOUT LIVING PERSONS WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES BEFORE DEATH.
Answer Dani‘s question – When a murder has been committed does God want to see that person brought to trial and upon conviction executed as He commanded over and over again? Or did God change His mind and now wants all murderers to live in prisons funded by the government stealing money from us taxpayers?
You also said:
“As for God demanding the execution of a murderer here on earth – that is nonsense! We have no right to take a life of a murderer unless there is no way of protecting society from the further actions of such a person.”
This is a good example of the utter BLASPHEMY that is taught by Catholics. Despite God saying OVER AND OVER AGAIN that man MUST execute convicted murderers Patricia puts forth this lie that she picked up by some evil Catholic priests she knows which says that man does not have the “right” to execute convicted murderers.
That’s what those vile Catholic priests and Patricia say. Here is what God said in His own words starting from the New Testament and then including other inspired references where God promotes the death penalty.
Matthew 15:4-6
“For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.‘ 5 “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God” — ] 6 ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. –Jesus Christ
Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Hebrews 10:28-29
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
1 Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the law [is] good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for [the] lawless and insubordinate, for [the] ungodly and for sinners, for [the] unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.
Romans 13:3-4
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to [execute] wrath on him who practices evil.
Acts 25:11
“For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”
Leviticus 24:17
‘Whoever murders any man shall surely be put to death.’
Genesis 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, BY MAN HIS BLOOD SHALL BE SHED; For in the image of God He made man.”
So much for your argument that “We have no right to take a life of a murderer”. We have not just the right, but the duty to execute murderers and bring about justice.
Are you saying that “hating your brother” is a crime that should be punished Bethany? Or, do you have enough intelligence to distinguish between SIN and CRIME where only CRIMES can be punished through evidence brought forth in trial?
Nope, I am saying that the Bible says you are no better than a murderer when you very obviously hate your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Bethany asked:
“That is interesting. I have never heard that before.
What is your take on the people who believed on Christ before His death? Are they not also part of the body of Christ? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.”
Those who were saved prior to Paul being raised up as an apostle to share God’s new revelation to the world about the Body of Christ were members of Israel and believed what Paul referred to as the Gospel of the Circumcision (Gal 2:7) which required faith in Christ as well as works such as water baptism (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21), abstaining from unclean foods (Matt 5:17-20; 28:19-20; Acts 10; 11:8; 21:20-21) and requiring circumcision and not associating with the uncircumcised (Acts 11:2-3; 21:20-21). They were saved if they endured to the end (2 Pet 2:20; Heb 6:4-6), but are not members of the Body of Christ where there is no difference between Jew and Greek and there are no laws that God requires members of the Body to keep (Rom 3:19; 4:4-5,15; 1 Cor 10:23; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Col 2:13-14).
Oh Zeke – You are just being too judgmental and not acting very “Christ-like”. How dare you quote Scripture like that! Just be more loving and tolerant! Don’t you know that people like Patricia & Bethany prefer a watered down, seeker sensitive modern day version of the Gospel?
Bethany claimed:
“I am saying that the Bible says you are no better than a murderer when you very obviously hate your brothers and sisters in Christ.”
A person who simply hates his brother IS BETTER than someone who not only hates his brother but acts on that hate and murders them.
Someone that hates someone and murders them is WORSE than the person who just hates someone but refrains from murdering them.
One is a crime, the other is simply a sin. A crime is worse than a sin.
A person who simply hates his brother IS BETTER than someone who not only hates his brother but acts on that hate and murders them.
Someone that hates someone and murders them is WORSE than the person who just hates someone but refrains from murdering them.
One is a crime, the other is simply a sin. A crime is worse than a sin.
Lesser of two evils is still evil.
Zeke, what is the 7th abomination, in the list of abominations in Pro 6:16-19?
Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
2 Kings 18:27
And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee!”
Deuteronomy 28:53
K Zeke hope you have a strong stomach.
Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Psalm 137:9
I don’t get this.
Those who were saved prior to Paul being raised up as an apostle to share God’s new revelation to the world about the Body of Christ were members of Israel and believed what Paul referred to as the Gospel of the Circumcision (Gal 2:7) which required faith in Christ as well as works such as water baptism (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21), abstaining from unclean foods (Matt 5:17-20; 28:19-20; Acts 10; 11:8; 21:20-21) and requiring circumcision and not associating with the uncircumcised (Acts 11:2-3; 21:20-21). They were saved if they endured to the end (2 Pet 2:20; Heb 6:4-6), but are not members of the Body of Christ where there is no difference between Jew and Greek and there are no laws that God requires members of the Body to keep (Rom 3:19; 4:4-5,15; 1 Cor 10:23; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Col 2:13-14).
Thanks for the info, Zeke. It helps me understand better what you were saying.
Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 2:12
Wait Zeke aren’t you a girl?
Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 2:12
Wait Zeke aren’t you a woman?
I am bowing out of this hate filled thread. Zeke you are intolerant. You can quote the entire bible if you so desire but your attitude is decidely unchristian, uncharitable and likely not very pleasing to God.. …”Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.”
To the rest of you, I wish you a peace filled evening. God bless.
Jess, to understand it, you have to know a lot about the history and context of the verses. Taking them out of context like that definitely can bring about confusion. lol I can understand your confusion, honest…but instead of reading them on their own you would really need to read the rest of the book along with it, to understand what it meant.
Bethany said:
“But time and time again, a person in the Old Testament repents of his sins, and God, in his great mercy and compassion, forgives them of their sins and spares them judgment that was coming for them!”
God has done that a few times, but it was God that decided to do that not some man in the government. No government official or anyone working with law enforcement has the valid option to act unjustly and let a murderer live.
When God spares capital criminals from being executed that is the EXCEPTION, not what normally occurs or should normally occur.I can assure you that even though the bible does not reference every case that 99% of convicted capital criminals were executed as God commanded they be.
And God rejects prisons as a form of punishment. All the nations around Israel had prisons, so it wasn’t as if God was unaware of the concept of a prison. Prison is unjust and has not successfully “protected” us from convicted murderers, rapists and kidnappers.
Isaiah 26:10 Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Patricia, I think I’m with you. I’m tired of Zeke, and the entire Denver Baptist Church, honestly.
But I do have one more question for Zeke. What is the punishment you would consider to be just for a person who is or has ever been involved in sexual immorality (while married) and who is or has been addicted to pornography?
I’ve read the whole bible maybe about…four times? I had a pretty religious upbringing. I understand the context, but I think it also shows the difference between the time it was written and the current times and how it can’t be taken in context.
Patricia said:
“I am bowing out of this hate filled thread.”
TRANSLATION: Since zeke showed how utterly wrong I was by quoting what God specificly said and commanded I am left with no intelligent response and can only admit that I was wrong and concede defeat, so I am just gonna leave without actually conceding that I was wrong and zeke was right.
Patricia said:
“Zeke you are intolerant.”
THAT’S CORRECT! I am completely intolerant of anyone who claims that God said the opposite of what He actually said which is precisely what you were doing.
God and I are pretty intolerant and we want justice instead of injustice despit Patricia and much of the Catholic Church’s insistance that God and I condemn justice and promote injustice.
We won’t tolerate that thinking for a single moment now or ever.
AMEN.
Patricia said:
“I am bowing out of this hate filled thread.”
TRANSLATION: Since zeke showed how utterly wrong I was by quoting what God specificly said and commanded I am left with no intelligent response and can only admit that I was wrong and concede defeat, so I am just gonna leave without actually conceding that I was wrong and zeke was right.
Patricia said:
“Zeke you are intolerant.”
THAT’S CORRECT! I am completely intolerant of anyone who claims that God said the opposite of what He actually said which is precisely what you were doing.
God and I are pretty intolerant and we want justice instead of injustice despite Patricia and much of the Catholic Church’s insistance that God and I condemn justice and promote injustice.
We won’t tolerate that thinking for a single moment now or ever.
AMEN.
Zeke are you a member of WBC?
I just can’t resist: Zeke and God on the same level. Zeke a God! Incroyable!
And no Zeke, I’m not bowing out because I think you scored a brownie point. It’s just there are better things to debate on this blog than you ranting and incanting.
Have a nice evening in lala land!
No, it’s not the WBC but it’s pretty darn close.
Patricia, you also noticed how Zeke referred to himself and God as we? Rather strange if you ask me.
Exactly my point Carrie. Delusions of grandeur or worse?!!
Jess said:
“Suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 2:12
Wait Zeke aren’t you a woman?”
Zeke is a man’s name you dope, not a girl’s name. Its short for Ezekiel. Think just a little bit.
Bethany, rather than consulting the punishment God commanded for adultery, asked me:
“What is the punishment you would consider to be just for a person who is or has ever been involved in sexual immorality (while married)”
I but demand that all convicted adulterers be publicly executed as God commands and an end brought to the adultery epidemic in the USA.
Bethany asked:
“What is the punishment you would consider to be just for a person who has been addicted to pornography?”
Oh, that poor poor guy who is “addicted” to pornography! You do realize that when people say that someone is “addicted” to something that they are trying to gain sympathy for that person and make people feel bad for their committing crimes over and over again that harm themself and their family and friends, right?
Anyone caught with porn or that is caught selling or distributing porn must be publicly flogged in order to bring an end to the porn industry and its abuse of children and women here in the USA and around the world.
I but demand that all convicted adulterers be publicly executed as God commands and an end brought to the adultery epidemic in the USA.
Oh, that poor poor guy who is “addicted” to pornography! You do realize that when people say that someone is “addicted” to something that they are trying to gain sympathy for that person and make people feel bad for their committing crimes over and over again that harm themself and their family and friends, right?Anyone caught with porn or that is caught selling or distributing porn must be publicly flogged in order to bring an end to the porn industry and its abuse of children and women here in the USA and around the world.
Thank you very much, Zeke. Now, depending on the gravity of the sexual immorality that Bob Enyart was involved in (you know, the sexual immorality that led to his first divorce?), along with the porn addiction he had, I guess we should be either publicly flogging him, or ensuring his swift and painful execution, post haste.
Source: Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Enyart
Ever hear about a boy named Sue, Zeke? Also many people use different names to remain anonymous. I don’t think midnight is really named midnight or Hooves-in-maw is really named Hooves-in-maw.
And since you called me a dope, I’m going to call you a Nancy Boy.
Carrie said:
“You also noticed how Zeke referred to himself and God as we? Rather strange if you ask me.”
When God and I think the same thing its fine for me to say WE. For instance, we both demand that convicted murderers are executed and justice brought about. God said this in Genesis 9:6 and Numbers 35:31-33 and Paul reiterated it in 1 Tim 1:8-11. So yes, WE want to see convicted murderers executed and justice brought about as a result.
If you disagree with God and promote the opposite of what God said should be done to murderers in Genesis 9:6 and many other times throughout history then you disagree with God and are opposed to God and His will.
Its not complicated.
Wait, I guess if you aren’t familiar with what God said in His word then it can be fairly complicated since you wouldn’t know what God thinks about a number of important matters and don’t know for sure if you are with God or against God. It could be complicated for you then.
To remedy this just study God’s word and you should get your beliefs in line with God’s over time.
Nancy Boy is going to blow a gasket over Bethany’s post.
Zeke,
“Despite God saying OVER AND OVER AGAIN that man MUST execute convicted murderers Patricia puts forth this lie that she picked up by some evil Catholic priests she knows which says that man does not have the “right” to execute convicted murderers.”
Show me support for this view in the Catechism. Stop giving your own personal interpretations of scripture and start quoting the Magisterium to back yourself up. And for crap sake, show some respect. God love you.
Incroyable!
Ha! Patricia, I worked in Quebec for a good while – love it.
Happy New Year.
Doug
Why do you assume forgiveness is a feminine trait?
Bethany, again you impress me. You’ve done a lot of good thinking despite bein’ so darn young. ; )
Bonne annee Doug!
Thanks for stickin up for me Bobby!
I forget, are you Catholic Patricia?
Oui, mon ami. Tres Catholique!
Doug, you’re way too nice to me after how exasperated I get with you. I’m not a patient enough person. lol Thanks for the kind words.
Hmmm, okay, well I had to look up the translation to that online, which isn’t very impressive seeing as how I have a French language reading exam coming up in March. I suppose I should be proud that I recognized that it was French… God love you, Patricia.
Bethany ignorantly asserted the following:
“Thank you very much, Zeke. Now, depending on the gravity of the sexual immorality that Bob Enyart was involved in (you know, the sexual immorality that led to his first divorce?), along with the porn addiction he had, I guess we should be either publicly flogging him, or ensuring his swift and painful execution, post haste.”
How absurd!! It is inherently unjust to punish someone for something they did YEARS BEFORE a law was put into effect. Its unjust to punish anyone RETROACTIVELY.
How can you not understand this? this is one of the clearest and most obvious teachings someone learns from reading just the first 10 chapters of the bible. Most notable is God changing the laws men are to follow that He gave before the flood and after the flood, the most glaring example being the change from not requiring the death penalty in Genesis 4 with Cain’s murder of able to demanding that murderers be executed in Genesis 9.
It would be just as wrong to punish Enyart for something he did years ago through a change in the US legal system at the present time as it would be to punish Able’s surviving family members for not executing Cain after the flood.
BOTTOM LINE: Its wrong to punish someone retroactively for doing something that wasn’t a crime when they did it.
There are some examples of the US government making new laws that are unjustly applied retroactively and they often involve financial matters (taxes aka the government stealing from US citizens).
But, let’s not kid ourselves that you are concerned at all about justice being done Bethany. What you want most is for Enyart to be executed for allegedly committing adultery over a decade ago because you hate anyone who promotes what is right and just – which in this case is the execution of capital criminals including convicted adulterers.
So, I have a question for you Bethany. More accurately, I have a statement for you to fill your name in if you are proud of your beliefs and want people to know where you stand. Here it is.
I, _________________________, acknowledge that God has commanded from Genesis 9:6 through the Old Testament and into the New Testament that convicted murderers are to be executed and that execution is the only just punishment for murder as well as rape, kidnapping and adultery. But, I believe that TODAY we are better people and have progressed to where justice is no longer a concern and that our openly opposing what God has revealed is the just response for murder, rape, kidnapping and adultery is not important. Only being merciful to these convicted capital criminals through stealing money from US citizens in the form of taxes to fund prisons and care for prisoners is important and is what Jesus Christ would want us to do. Whatever the solution to the murder, rape, kidnapping and adultery epidemic is I cannot accept that simply having the government obey God’s commands in punishing these criminals is the solution. There must be some other way not mentioned in God’s perfectly just and righteous criminal justice system that He gave us in His word.
Oh dear…. You might be in trouble. On the bright side, Bobby, you do have 3 months…
Mr. Enyart has a nice personal rap sheet. And a former catholic to boot. Mercy.
“It is inherently unjust to punish someone for something they did YEARS BEFORE a law was put into effect.”
When was adultery NOT a sin before God?
Also, does the word “humility” strike a chord?
I wonder where Mr.Enyart keeps his secret porn stash these days.
LOL Zeke, you are cracking me up.
You act as though I said that in total seriousness.
Ever heard of sarcasm?
I just thought it was amusing that your leader who you idolize has had such a dark and sinister past… just imagine, if adultery and pornography had been judged in the same way you imagine it should since about 20 years ago, Bob Enyart wouldn’t exist today, because he would have been swiftfully executed, and painfully too. Who would you have had to idolize then? Thank goodness God forgives sinners.
I wonder where Mr.Enyart keeps his secret porn stash these days.
*giggle *
Don’t ya LOVE having Zeke show up?
I remember watching the March for Women’s Lives on CSPAN about two years ago. It was about a million people, greats bands and speakers, a lovely Spring day – and then the dancing chick in the vulva suit appeared.
( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1124310/posts 22nd picture down – you can’t miss it…)
I remember that I was sitting alone at home watching this and suddenly being embarrassed for all 1,000,000 participants, my gender, and my cause.
You know what Zeke is?
Zeke is YOUR chick in the vulva suit…
Bobby Bambino said:
“Show me support for this view in the Catechism. Stop giving your own personal interpretations of scripture and start quoting the Magisterium to back yourself up.”
I was simply responding to what Patricia said which she undoubtedly got from priests she was taught by and heard sermons from at masses she attended and similar events.
Part of what Patrica claimed is found in the catechism where it asserts that the most important thing is NOT justice anymore – the word justice doesn’t even appear when the catechism covers the death penalty. They simply refer to “protecting” people from those ALREADY convicted of murder or another capital crime.
Of course, anyone who pays attention to the local or national news will tell you that prison does NOT protect us from all convicted murderers, rapists, kidnappers and adulterers since we seem to constantly be hearing about convicted murders and rapists committing those crimes again.
Execution DOES work 100% of the time. If we execute 100% of convicted capital criminals then there is a 0% chance that they will be able to commit those crimes again. They won’t even be able to sodomize or murder anyone in the same prison they are in since they won’t spend time in a prison as punishment, but will be taken right from the court room to the area they will be executed at the following day.
What I hear from priests and laity and Helen Prejean are things like “Israel couldn’t build a prison due to lack of resources” or “prisons didn’t exist back then” or “We have progressed to where we no longer need to execute capital criminals”. These are all lies!
You’ll probably be upset if I don’t throw in a direct reference from the catechism so here it is. Read it and weep.
2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.
Notice the absence of the word “justice”. Catholics could care less about real justice because real justice means executing every convicted capital criminal. So, for Catholics, justice is just an abstract word thrown around when and where it sounds good. At least, in my experience.
….meanwhile, the murder, rape, kidnapping and adultery epidemic continue across the USA.
I remember watching the March for Women’s Lives on CSPAN about two years ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wow, that was almost 4 years ago…
I’ll have to sew a new vulva suit. The last one is SO 2004!
Bethany: Doug, you’re way too nice to me after how exasperated I get with you. I’m not a patient enough person. lol Thanks for the kind words.
No – not “way too nice.” Maybe not even nice enough to you, as you’ve demonstrated a lot of good qualities. There is more than patience, and you’re no slouch there either.
I think I understand, anyway.
……
Zeke: Bethany ignorantly asserted the following:
Geez, Zeke. Good grief – what a grouch….
……
Patricia, among the Quebecois I heard some of the most expressive swearing ever, and it’s “different” – a swearing “to the church,” as I understand it. Viva la difference.
……
Bobby, your irrepressible goodness always comes through. And wow – won’t be long and Gianna will be six weeks! Amazing. She’s gonna be a smart kid.
My vote for another “smart kid” – my niece Isabella, all of five years old, a few days ago:
“Is Aunt Melanie arguing with Daddy because he’s showing inappropriate things to the boys?”
They were watching “The Godfather.”
“Inappropriate” – I have to laugh.
Doug
Bethany said:
“LOL Zeke, you are cracking me up.
You act as though I said that in total seriousness.
Ever heard of sarcasm?”
You weren’t being sarcastic. There was no hint of sarcasm in your post anywhere.
Bethany claimed:
“just imagine, if adultery and pornography had been judged in the same way you imagine it should since about 20 years ago, Bob Enyart wouldn’t exist today, because he would have been swiftfully executed, and painfully too.”
No, that’s completely the OPPOSITE of what would be the case.
If adultery had remained a crime and not been de-criminalized and the US government had acted swiftly to shut down and punish the early porn peddlers (Kinsey, Hefner and their friends) we would not have widespread porn and Enyart and millions of other husbands would not have imagined that being unfaithful to their wives would be a move worth making due to the severe consequences that would likely follow.
And yes, having grown up in the most formative years as a Catholic was very damaging to him and to 100s of millions of people all over the world. Especially growing up in the diocese that Patterson, NJ was a part of during that time.
By the way Bethany, you must agree with me that following God’s command when it comes to punishing adulterers would have had a positive effect on deterring that crime from being committed or else you are calling God a liar. Or do you think that God’s laws being carried out in the nation would have the same effect on would-be capital criminals as if there were no law? Do you think that?
Zeke, you said that we MUST execute convicted murderers. Is that what paragraph 2267 says? No. In fact, when you read the second part of the paragraph which you failed to italicize, it is clear that the death penalty is a last resort. No one, even a secular, non religious person would read that paragraph and get your interpretation out of it. You’re in rebellion against the Church. Your solution that you propose afterwards about killing everyone is not found in Catholic teaching. I suggest you go to confession and find a good spiritual director.
Wow, all this shouting.
I’m sure glad that Bethany is so level-headed.
If adultery had remained a crime and not been de-criminalized and the US government had acted swiftly to shut down and punish the early porn peddlers (Kinsey, Hefner and their friends) we would not have widespread porn and Enyart and millions of other husbands would not have imagined that being unfaithful to their wives would be a move worth making due to the severe consequences that would likely follow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I SO love her.
Quick! Hide all the petroglyphs, Etruscan pottery and classcal Indian art before Zeke figures out how old porn is!)
Saudi Arabia may be more your cup of tea, Zeke. Public executions and mutilations, literal translations, rigidity. Crime rate there is wonderfully low, at least that’s what I’ve heard.
They’re much closer to the Holy Land than we are.
I SO love her.
Quick! Hide all the petroglyphs, Etruscan pottery and classcal Indian art before Zeke figures out how old porn is!)
LOL
Laura —
You took the historical fact right out my mind. After all there wasn’t any sex before Hugh Hefner started Playboy…
You took the historical fact right out my mind. After all there wasn’t any sex before Hugh Hefner started Playboy…
Posted by: LB at December 27, 2007 8:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ah, yes-
The days of cross-pollination.
Remember how women just stood downwind of the men while as released their spores?
It was a simpler time…
By the way Bethany, you must agree with me that following God’s command when it comes to punishing adulterers would have had a positive effect on deterring that crime from being committed or else you are calling God a liar.
I was always of the notion that Jesus IS God… I do actually specifically remember an instance where Jesus forgave an adulterous woman rather than allowing her to be stoned to death. Do you approve of that, or would you have been the first to throw the stone?
If adultery had remained a crime and not been de-criminalized and the US government had acted swiftly to shut down and punish the early porn peddlers (Kinsey, Hefner and their friends) we would not have widespread porn and Enyart and millions of other husbands would not have imagined that being unfaithful to their wives would be a move worth making due to the severe consequences that would likely follow.
Oh, of course, Zeke…because Bob Enyart is not to blame for Bob Enyart’s sins… it’s the circumstances that led him to be the way he is. I guess “resist the devil and he will flee” didn’t apply to him. Because Bob Enyart can’t possibly be held responsible for the choices Bob Enyart makes.
Oh wait. What was it you were saying about people trying to make others feel sorry for them by calling something what it is not (addiction)?
You weren’t being sarcastic. There was no hint of sarcasm in your post anywhere.
LOL The whole post was oozing with sarcasm. If you couldn’t detect that, something in your head needs to be…well, upgraded.
while as released their spores?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“As they released their spores.”
I’m tired…
Laura —
Simple times, simple minds. Much easier…
Bethany —
Not just an upgrade, but perhaps a service pack or two are needed. ;)
Okay, I cant resist. First of all, Carder, like you I’m all for Zeke moving to Saudia Arabia. Secondly, Laura, you forget, there was an even simpler time, men and women reproduced via asexual budding. :-) (cross-pollination just left too many things to chance!!!)
You girls are killing me. :D
Zeke,
I don’t mean to be uncharitable. But, much like some of the “rational, freethinking” atheists, you seem to have a lot of pride in all of your knowledge that no one else has about how the gospel really should be preached. You seem to enjoy lauding your special knowledge above us much like the gnostics of the first few centuries. Now if you say you’re not prideful, I’ll believe you. I’m just some guy on the internet. But it’s such an easy trap to fall into. That is, as our Catholic Tradition teaches, the reason for Satan’s fall from grace. So if you really believe that killing people for their sins is taught in the gospel and is part of Catholic Tradition, fine. But pride is the deadliest of the deadly sins; pride, as you know, is what lurks behind the heinous act of abortion. Does that make sense? You are obviously am unrelenting, no nonsense warrior for the faith, and I commend that. God love you, Zeke.
Bobby Bambino said pretending as if he had never discussed at length paragraph 2267 of the catechism with anyone in the past:
“Zeke, you said that we MUST execute convicted murderers. Is that what paragraph 2267 says? No. In fact, when you read the second part of the paragraph which you failed to italicize, it is clear that the death penalty is a last resort. No one, even a secular, non religious person would read that paragraph and get your interpretation out of it.”
NOTE: Apparently the italics stop working once you double space for some reason. Wasn’t doing that before that I can recall……
The Catholic catechism is WRONG and in fact uses language that is so foreign to what God says about the death penalty that a person reading that paragraph who was unaware that it was found in the catholic catechism would at first think that it was written by some secular institution or group.
Have you really not had a discussion about this paragraph that lasted more than 2 minutes Bobby? I ask because once you talk about this paragraph for not even 2 minutes the question of “when are nonlethal means insufficient and lethal means (execution) needed?” comes up.
And you are almost certainly aware that THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ANTI-DEATH PENALTY CATHOLICS claim that “lethal means” are NEVER necessary. They wanted Tim McVeigh to be spared execution! There were even nuns who lived in Terre Haute, IN who lit a candle for McVeigh and placed it with his murder victims in a candle ceremony prior to his execution!
Catholics oppose justice, think justice is evil or bad and as a result I have to conclude that the overwhelming majority of catholics are lost.
God gives no room for deviation when it comes to the government punishing convicted murderers. All of them must be executed, whether that government is able to protect its citizens through nonlethal means (prison) or not. God knew about prisons and rejected imprisonment as a form of punishment. The Catholic Church thinks it is more merciful and wiser than God.
Do you also think that you are more merciful and wiser than God by your promoting the unjust punishment of prison for convicted murderers Bobby? Or do you agree with God that the only just punishment for murder is the execution of the murderer?
If you doubt that God has explicitly said this, here is where God explicitly said this. God said this and there is no reason to believe that it isn’t still just as true today.
Numbers 35:31
‘Moreover you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer who [is] guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21:12
“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.”
FYI – “surely be put to death” means that putting a murderer in prison is not an option. Correct?
Any punishment for a murderer other than execution is an unjust punishment and is therefore evil, correct? If you don’t think so then please explain in an intelligent and rational way.
Doesn’t that mean that Eric Rudolph should be put to death AT ONCE!
Bethany said:
“I was always of the notion that Jesus IS God… I do actually specifically remember an instance where Jesus forgave an adulterous woman rather than allowing her to be stoned to death. Do you approve of that, or would you have been the first to throw the stone?”
Jesus Christ is God and HE IS THE ONE THAT GAVE MOSES THE COMMANDS You shall not commit adultery AND Execute convicted adulterers. The two commands that you are now publicly mocking and ridiculing.
Jesus said:
Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
Leviticus 20:10 ‘The man who commits adultery with [another] man’s wife, [he] who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.
You acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God and gave that law to Moses, right? YES or NO?
Jesus forgave the woman in John 8 because the Pharisees were trying to trap him and have something to accuse him of. At least, according to John.
John 8:4-6
“Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 “Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have [something] of which to accuse Him.
How would their asking Him this “test Him” so they would “have something of which to accuse Him”? If you can answer this question then you will understand WHY this is not indicative of what God thinks should happen to EVERY convicted adulterer and is simply just one of 3 exceptions (out of thousands) of cases of adultery where God refrained from having the adulterer executed.
I’ve given the specific reasons WHY giving the correct response would put Jesus in this situation and how His giving the response that HE COMMANDED IN THE LAW would result in a big problem for Him to deal with at that time, but apparently you don’t remember what the reason is despite my providing it multiple times on here.
Looking forward to your answer if you come up with one.
Zeke,
You are an IDIOT
Enough said.
——————————
Dancing vulva, ROFLMAO…. that is about the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while!
Hey Bobby, just simply answer the specific questions I’ve asked. Don’t condemn me as someone that is prideful as a result of my ability ro read and interpret clear and simple phrases such as “surely be put to death” and my acknowledgement that if you don’t do what God explicitly says is just then you are doing what is unjust.
The Catholic catechism used NO BIBLE REFERENCE in its claim that what is most important is keeping people safe from those who have ALREADY committed murder, rape, kidnapping and adultery. That post-crime focus leaves a great deal of damage in its wake.
Zeke,
Your quotes and thoughts are very interesting to me. However, I can’t help but notice that you quote many verses from the Old Testament, where the people lived under “the law”. We currently live in the Church Age, the age of “grace”. Our sins have been paid for over 2000 years ago by the blood of Christ. God will forgive those who accept Him, and yes, put to death, those who don’t. However, I believe that this “death” that God speaks of is the “second death” – the spritual one – the final one.
Hey Zeke —
Does your Bible only have an Old Testament? Seems to me that Jesus wasn’t preaching death but life.
The Beatitudes encourage mercy and are not call for the type of punishment you seem to crave.
I’m not a Bible quoter myself, but as I recall Jesus did not come to continue the old laws, but to fulfill it. He asked us to love our enemies and pray for them.
Correct me if I wrong (been a while since I read the bible or stepped foot in a church), but wasnt the Great Flood (aka Noah’s Arch) the last vingeful thing that God did?
If I am remembering correctly, he killed off the entire freaking world, saved the animanls (except the Unicorns, and that really bothers me), Noah and his family (and maybe a few others). Once the water lowered and the left the ship, he told Noah that he’d never do that again, and thus the age of forgiveness and grace began.
midnite,
yeah, kindof, no.
unicorns…lol!
:)
AB,
Like I said, I am rusty on the whole “bible thing” and I havent been in a church since I wa 16.
But I swear I remember my Sunday School Teacher saying that the “Great Flood” was the last vengefull/spitefull thing that God did, and he promised no to destroy the world again.
COuld you explain this to me please?
And seriously, I am pissed that the unicorns didnt make it on that boat!
Pollination sex…. pro-life and pro-choicers taking on Mr 1319.
It reminds me of that great exchange from Ghostbusters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w91-GMc3j7I
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.
This is a great thread – a wide-ranging free-for-all, pretty much.
midnite,
I’m upset about the unicorns, too. They were so cool! (especially the purple ones with white manes & the gold horn!)
He promised not to destroy the world with a flood again, hence the rainbow as His promise.
Genesis 9:11-17
11, “thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12, And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13, “I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
14, “It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud;
15, “and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16, “The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
17, And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”
Midnite,
And when you see a rainbow, if you look really, really, hard….I think you’ll find that Unicorn!
Anyway, yes, God will destroy the earth again…just not by a flood!
Wow, Zeke. I thought you’d be the last person to throw out the old “don’t judge me” card. You can sure dish it out, but you can’t take it.
“The Catholic catechism is WRONG.”
My, my, my. Who are you to say? Every theologian, bishop, and cardinal who worked on the Catechism got it wrong then? Until Zeke.
“Have you really not had a discussion about this paragraph that lasted more than 2 minutes Bobby?”
I have had a discussion for more than 2 minutes. I was and am quite well aware of the ambiguity of what justifies the death penalty. So when you start preaching like what you’re saying is de fide, this is a problem.
“Do you also think that you are more merciful and wiser than God by your promoting the unjust punishment of prison for convicted murderers Bobby? Or do you agree with God that the only just punishment for murder is the execution of the murderer?”
No, and I don’t agree with your interpretation. I can paste about 15 bible verses “proving” the doctrine of sola fide, just like you can paste verse after verse “proving” we should kill everyone. This is why we have the Magesterium! I don’t interpret scripture outside the teaching authority of the Church, which is something that you are doing, and trying to pawn it off as doctrine. I am open to what you are saying. But I don’t see it being taught by the Catholic Church.
“Any punishment for a murderer other than execution is an unjust punishment and is therefore evil, correct?”
I don’t think so because the Catholic Church doesn’t teach it. I do not subscribe to sola Zeke.
Have you ever heard of James R. White? Because you remind me an awful lot of him- “Truth is found in whomever has the best argument.” Catholic to Catholic now, in order to convince me of this view, you need to show that the Catholic Church teaches it. So far all I can get from you there is that the CCC is wrong. I mean, this wasn’t a part of JPII’s pontificate. When was this “killing concept” big in church history?
Hey there Doug. Actually, she’s 6 weeks yesterday- oh yeah! My goodness, is she the most beautiful little girl ever. But then again, she does sometimes cry when I don’t want her to. According to sola zeke, death penalty for her!
Thanks AB.
As I said, I am rusty of the scripture.
IMO, It has to much room for interpretation, hence why I like man’s law (aka the criminal code). It simply tells a person what crimes constitute what punishment. And the best part? It’s voted on by the people before it is put into effect.
I LOVE the Criminal Code. One which every man/woman, even Zeke, can follow and understand.
:-)
No problem, midnite!
I try not to “read” into it too much! (keep it simple!) I just ask God before I read it that He has me understand it the way He wants to. If I don’t understand something, I move on. Usually, years down the road, the part that I “moved on” I then understand. It’s pretty cool!
Certainly you feel the same way about the terrorists that torched the three clinics in New Mexico this month?
Can we swiftly and painfully execute them?
Posted by: Laura at December 27, 2007 5:10 PM
…………………………………………..
Update:
Apparently 2 men have been arrested for the arsons. After a cursory criminal check, I found that the alleged instigator has been out of prison and on parole since July. (DV and 2nd degree murder convictions)
It seems that his ‘girlfriend’ is scheduled for an abortion somewhere and he thought he’d cover all of the bases in his need to control her and her life.
How much do you want to bet that his defense will include how he got jesus in prison and how he was trying to prevent the ‘murder’ of ‘his’ beloved embryo?
You took the historical fact right out my mind. After all there wasn’t any sex before Hugh Hefner started Playboy…
Posted by: LB at December 27, 2007 8:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ah, yes-
The days of cross-pollination.
Remember how women just stood downwind of the men while as released their spores?
It was a simpler time…
Posted by: Laura at December 27, 2007 8:40 PM
……………………..
Reminds me of The King and I with Yul Brynner explaining how men are bees going from flower to flower. I always wondered how many bees visited each flower.
Hi, Sally! I missed ya!
How was your CHRISTmas?
So much for your argument that “We have no right to take a life of a murderer”. We have not just the right, but the duty to execute murderers and bring about justice.
Posted by: zeke13:19 at December 27, 2007 6:03 PM
Zeke,
What about Pope John Paul II encyclical “Evangelium Vitae” (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world’s Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate “in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”
I’d say he’d be okay with Charles Manson’s execution but not the woman noted in this story.
My grandma and our family were talking about this over Christmas dinner (yeah, we actually did!). I brought up the guy from Wisconsin that slipped the abortion pill into his girlfriend’s smoothies, and my grandma told me she read about this story in our papers (we live in Oklahoma).
Interesting, needless to say. It is hypocritical right now, but is possibly a step in the right direction when it comes to legal recognition. It kind of makes me wonder. People say that smoking or drinking or drugs while pregnant is harming an innocent life, but yet dismemberment isn’t?
How backwards we are right now. This is the time to start taking both ends and begin unwinding.
Oh yeah I’ve said this already but JUNO WAS AWESOME. I cried like a sap of course, it was so cute. And GREAT music selections man. Went crazy when Bateman started playing sonic youth!
Juno looks like one of those family heart-warming movies, but I think it looks funny so I may go see it. Who knows.
As for this, I would have to agree with Erin in terms of law. It was clearly reckless behavior without an intent to kill, making it involuntay manslaughter, not second degree murder. She didn’t lose control when she saw the drugs and decide to kill her unborn child (whom I assumed she had planned on keeping at that point, 8months in).
Second off, I really dont see this as a clear indication of anything. Cases like this have popped up for years, and everyone gasps and asks “What effect will this have on abortion?” and then nothing comes of it. Its just another criminal case (though, like I said, in this case I feel the woman was charged incorrectly; unless I’m missing something).
Why did she plead guilty to second-degree murder? I bet a jury would have acquitted her.
Wow Laura that vulva looked a little on the stale side…EEK!
Good thing Zeke’s a douche.
Ah, yes-
The days of cross-pollination.
Remember how women just stood downwind of the men while as released their spores?
It was a simpler time…
Posted by: Laura at December 27, 2007 8:40 PM
Man, I haven’t laughed out loud like that in a long time…thanks Laura.
Between Zeke’s insanity and your humor, I’m really glad I stuck around this morning…I really needed the laughs.
Zeke,
you’ve missed you’re calling. Second City is always looking for new blood…
Midnite, about the unicorns… :)
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i2/unicorn.asp
You shall not commit adultery AND Execute convicted adulterers. The two commands that you are now publicly mocking and ridiculing.
I have not mocked any of God’s laws or commands, Zeke. I may have mocked you upon provocation, but that is a separate issue.
Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.
Leviticus 20:10 ‘The man who commits adultery with [another] man’s wife, [he] who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.
You acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God and gave that law to Moses, right? YES or NO?
Absolutely.
Jesus forgave the woman in John 8 because the Pharisees were trying to trap him and have something to accuse him of. At least, according to John.
John 8:4-6
“Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 “Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have [something] of which to accuse Him.
How would their asking Him this “test Him” so they would “have something of which to accuse Him”? If you can answer this question then you will understand WHY this is not indicative of what God thinks should happen to EVERY convicted adulterer and is simply just one of 3 exceptions (out of thousands) of cases of adultery where God refrained from having the adulterer executed.
Zeke, explain to me this verse below. Why did Jesus refer to a statement in the Old Testament, and then give a new rule to follow concerning this law? And yes, I realize this does not have to do with adultery, and it does not have to do with capital punishment. Just answer the question.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
I’ve given the specific reasons WHY giving the correct response would put Jesus in this situation and how His giving the response that HE COMMANDED IN THE LAW would result in a big problem for Him to deal with at that time, but apparently you don’t remember what the reason is despite my providing it multiple times on here.
Zeke, I have also on multiple occasions explained to you that I do not oppose the death penalty. Yet you seem to still think I do. I simply oppose your hatred. It goes against everything that God and Jesus taught in the Old and New Testament. You do not represent Christ with your obvious hatred for everyone and everything, and your arrogant pride. One of the abominations is pride, and the other is sowing discord. Seems amazing that you are willing to follow God’s commands when it comes to executing others, but you are not willing to follow his commands when He says not to be prideful and not to sow discord among brethren.
10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
More for Zeke to ponder…
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (no offense to Bob Enyart, of course)
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Jess, I am sending you an email that will hopefully explain better your questions about those verses.
I was born a unicorn..
I missed the ark but I could have sworn..
You’d wait for me…
Posted by: zeke13:19 at December 27, 2007 4:13 PM:
I would love to see this murderous mom executed in a painful manner and in front of a large audience made up of members of the community she lived in.
That’s also what God would want to see happen in order to bring about justice for that innocent baby.
“You shall give life for life.” — God speaking of criminal justice
——————-
Would YOU be willing to torture and kill this woman in front of her community?
God did not decree that people are to “love seeing” criminals executed as your apparent blood lust and vengeful heart compel you.
There is no passage in the Bible that instructs people to “enjoy” watching grisly executions.
Thank God blood thirsty religious zealots such as yourself aren’t running the justice system.
Thank God.
Hi, Sally! I missed ya!
How was your CHRISTmas?
Posted by: AB Laura at December 27, 2007 10:29 PM
……………………………
Hi ya Laura! Christmas was really really busy. I also started a new job on Wednesday. Did you have a good one?
Well *this* has been a most interesting thread.
It is always so enjoyable watching Zeke make an arse of herself/himself/itself. I want to bake Bethany, Bobby, and Patricia some brownies. :)
Hey Zeke…I didn’t know you were a composer:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=720_1179383603&p=1
*shakes head*
Wow Rae,
How screwed up is that?!?!?!?!?
Couldn’t even come up with their own song…had to bastardize someone elses…
Ugh, I remember seeing that. The Westboro Baptist church is so disgusting. It’s amazing that those people think they represent God. It’s astounding how willing they are to ignore the message in the Bible which is about loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, praying for your enemies, etc, and instead take passages out of context to say that God hates the whole world. They are only willing to spread hate and lies.
Rae, what kind of cookies are you going to make? I love cookies. :-)
Sally,
A new job? Fantastic!! I’m so happy for you…seems you did much better on the interview process than you thought…I’m so happy for you & I hope you love it!
I’ll bet you cooked up quite the feast, again. Any awesome gifts this year from your extremely generous children? (I don’t know how they could possibly beat your b-day gifts!)
My CHRISTmas was ok…glad it’s over, though!
Have a very, happy New Year!
Good morning, Bethany!
Oops, I read your post wrong and didn’t notice you said it was brownies. Brownies are even better than cookies. :D
Morning, Laura!! :)
@Bethany: I have a recipe for “Texas Brownies” that my mom got from a friend of hers who grew up in Texas. I don’t care for them (I’m super picky though), but everybody else LOVES them. They have frosting and stuff. :)
Yummers!!!
I’m glad this woman is goin down!
Sally,
A new job? Fantastic!! I’m so happy for you…seems you did much better on the interview process than you thought…I’m so happy for you & I hope you love it!
I’ll bet you cooked up quite the feast, again. Any awesome gifts this year from your extremely generous children? (I don’t know how they could possibly beat your b-day gifts!)
My CHRISTmas was ok…glad it’s over, though!
Have a very, happy New Year!
Posted by: AB Laura at December 29, 2007 7:47 AM
………………………………………………………………..
Just OK Laura? What did you do for Christmas?
Yea, knocked myself out with Cornish game hens and such. Probably the last Christmas I’ll have with my kids for a long while. They are moving to Australia next year. In accordance they gave me one of those video cam things that you can actually talk to another and see them at the same time in real time. And a GPS for when I come to live in or visit Australia. My choice of course.
As for the new job, well, we will see. I also start back to school in a couple of weeks. Refresher course in Algebra. EEEUUU! Give me business math!
@Zeke,
Guess Jesus wants to give your heart a little stretch. Like a small child who believes that ‘Rules are Rules!’ then precedes to corner God on His own rules … the whole Book of Job is about this.
Then there is the story about Jesus being confronted by the pharisees (I picture you as head of that pack) with a woman caught ‘in the very act of adultery’. Was she guilty …yeppers. Did she have a clue who Jesus is …. likely not! Now slowly, go over what Jesus says to her … remember they are alone … ‘Your accusers, where are they?’ ‘Gone, sir, all gone!’ Please note, Jesus’ next few words …. ‘Nor do I condemn you! …’ He comes ‘not to condemn, but to save.’
Christians are called to the same thing. The judging is NOT any part of our life in Jesus – and like Jesus we accept the punishment for the sins of others … so, THEY do not die (in their sin), but you die as an appeasement for their sin.
No where do I detect the least willingness to suffer for those who are now our brothers and sisters. You sound very much like the 2nd son in the Prodigal Son story …. ‘this child of yours…’, says he. He never says ‘My brother has returned!’
Sally,
yep, Christmas was just ok..we have a VERY small family & see each other almost every week. I don’t get into holidays as much as I probably should. The best part is just having the day off of work!
Your dinner sounds yummy! However, I am sorry to hear that your kids are moving! I know how much you adore them….awesome gift, though! It’ll be like your right there with them!
I hope your job works out well…as far as the business math goes…THANK GOD for the internet! You can just about google the answer to anything nowadays! It sure isn’t like it was younger…I actually had to go to the LIBRARY! I’m sure you’ll do just fine..any questions & I’m sure Bobby Bambino can help…he LOVES math! (I’d help you if you need it, but I really, really, really suck at math!)
(that should have read: It sure isn’t like it was WHEN I WAS younger…(I suck at English, too!)
Sally,
yep, Christmas was just ok..we have a VERY small family & see each other almost every week. I don’t get into holidays as much as I probably should. The best part is just having the day off of work!
Your dinner sounds yummy! However, I am sorry to hear that your kids are moving! I know how much you adore them….awesome gift, though! It’ll be like your right there with them!
I hope your job works out well…as far as the business math goes…THANK GOD for the internet! You can just about google the answer to anything nowadays! It sure isn’t like it was younger…I actually had to go to the LIBRARY! I’m sure you’ll do just fine..any questions & I’m sure Bobby Bambino can help…he LOVES math! (I’d help you if you need it, but I really, really, really suck at math!)
Posted by: AB Laura at December 29, 2007 8:33 PM
………………………………………………………………….
While I love Google, one must be very careful over the source of information. I learned that doing genealogy research.
As for the Algebra course, I’m hoping that it will make more sense to me at 50 than it did at 15. The kids are whizzes at math but if they should be unavailable, I’d be happy to tap da’ Bambino for tutoring if he should be willing. I doubt that a recent father will have the time or inclination to do so however.
Do you still have a library card? I do. I love libraries. Whoever wrote City of Angels knew that if a heaven should be necessary, it would be a library.
Pro-Life Blog Carnival 12-31-2007
Welcome to the first edition Pro-Life Blog Carnival. Thank you for every one who took time to suggest the articles below to be included in this edition. If you feel that there was a article worth mentioning please submit it for the next edition.
I…
LOL Sally!! and yes, I do have a library card!
Have a very, Happy New Year!!!
AB laura said:
“Your quotes and thoughts are very interesting to me. However, I can’t help but notice that you quote many verses from the Old Testament, where the people lived under “the law”.”
What!? If you really think that and aren’t just typing without reading what I have posted then you are very poor when it comes to simply reading what I have posted. And here is my proof to back up this assertion.
In my December 27 post made at 6:03 PM I have 8 bible references that showed support of the death penalty. 6 of the 8 references were from the NEW TESTAMENT. That’s 75% of the references. So, the majority of the references in that post were from the New Testament. You can go read my post where I gave them or you can look up these passages and read them. ONE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT PASSAGES WAS JESUS CHRIST SPECIFICLY SUPPORTING THE DEATH PENALTY FOR A SPECIFIC CRIME!
New Testament references – 6
Matthew 15:4-6; Revelation 13:10; Hebrews 10:28-29; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; Romans 13:3-4; Acts 25:11
Old Testament references – 2
Leviticus 24:17; Genesis 9:6
AB laura claimed:
“We currently live in the Church Age, the age of “grace”.”
No we don’t. You don’t find the term “church age” in the bible anywhere. Some misinformed pastor you know may claim that we live in “the age of grace” and that this means that all criminals should be let free and not punished, but that is not what the Apostle Paul taught in the New Testament. He refers to this age as “this present evil age”
Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father
AB laura claimed:
“Our sins have been paid for over 2000 years ago by the blood of Christ. God will forgive those who accept Him, and yes, put to death, those who don’t.”
God does not typically execute capital criminals for us. God has given the responsibility of executing capital criminals to MEN who have been commanded to rightly govern from Genesis 9:6 through the present time (Rom 13:1-4; 1 Tim 1:8-11).
“However, I believe that this “death” that God speaks of is the “second death” – the spritual one – the final one.”
You may “believe” this, but you have no scriptural evidence to support such a claim. When God said that men are to execute convicted murderers he made it clear that He was referring to the first death where these capital criminals died from actual men who executed them through some specific method. When Jesus Christ supports the law He gave in Ex 21:17 when He promotes the death penalty in Matt 15 He means the first death that is specificly laid out in Ex 21:17 where the criminal is executed by stoning. Men justly stone that criminal to death as God commanded they do. God doesn’t kill them.
LB, who admits to being biblically illiterate, asked:
“Does your Bible only have an Old Testament?”
No. My bible has the Old and New Testament and I am careful to obey the only part of the bible addressed specificly to me – Paul’s epistles (Eph 3:2-9; Gal 2:7-9).
LB claimed:
“Seems to me that Jesus wasn’t preaching death but life.”
Jesus Christ preached plenty of “death” by upholding the death penalty in Matthew 15 and Mark 7. Jesus Christ believes that the death penalty is pro-life and life affirming. He specificly said during His earthly ministry that those Jews who followed Him had to obey all the commandments including the least of the commandments.
Matthew 5:17-20
” Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: JUSTICE and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Notice how Jesus mentions justice first along with mercy and faith.
LB said:
“The Beatitudes encourage mercy and are not call for the type of punishment you seem to crave.”
The “beatitudes” are not a teaching on how the government should function. The beatitudes don’t deal with crime and punishment, they address the personal life of a person and sin.
LB said:
“I’m not a Bible quoter myself, but as I recall Jesus did not come to continue the old laws, but to fulfill it. He asked us to love our enemies and pray for them.”
See Matthew 5:17-20 that I referenced above. Jesus demanded that those who follow Him obey EVERY one of the Mosaic laws if they were to “enter the kingdom of Heaven”. Jesus made it clear that He did not repeal even one law that He gave to Moses.
midnight678 asked:
“Correct me if I wrong (been a while since I read the bible or stepped foot in a church), but wasnt the Great Flood (aka Noah’s Arch) the last vingeful thing that God did?
If I am remembering correctly, he killed off the entire freaking world, saved the animanls (except the Unicorns, and that really bothers me), Noah and his family (and maybe a few others). Once the water lowered and the left the ship, he told Noah that he’d never do that again, and thus the age of forgiveness and grace began.”
No, the flood was not “the last vingeful thing that God did”. He actually killed a couple wicked guys directly.
Genesis 38:7-10
But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD, and the LORD killed him. 8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.
Jesus demanded that those who follow Him obey EVERY one of the Mosaic laws if they were to “enter the kingdom of Heaven”. Jesus made it clear that He did not repeal even one law that He gave to Moses.
Well then, I sure hope you’ve been keeping the Sabbath faithfully, Zeke.
Also, if this is true (that no one could enter Heaven unless they followed every jot and tittle of the law) then why was the thief who died next to him promised paradise? Obviously, he had spent his entire life in sin. Yet he was promised Heaven.
Just to let you know, I already know the answer to the question I posed. I do not think you do though.
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
The “beatitudes” are not a teaching on how the government should function. The beatitudes don’t deal with crime and punishment, they address the personal life of a person and sin.
Zeke, are you ever, in your personal life, commanded to hate your enemies? To gleefully enjoy torturing them? To mock and lash out at people without a cause? Even if we should kill all of the people you think should be killed, do you think that the Bible ever commands us to ENJOY seeing people die without a Savior? Ever? Please show me chapter and verse, in the New Testament, please, where Jesus says that we need to mock and hatefully torment people who are without a Savior, without hope.
Bobby Bambino said:
“Wow, Zeke. I thought you’d be the last person to throw out the old “don’t judge me” card. You can sure dish it out, but you can’t take it.”
That is not what I said. All I said was that I want you to respond to the specific questions I ask and not avoid respoonding to those specific questions by going off on a tangent about how you think my motivations or thinking might be driven by pride or something or other. Just respond to the specific questions and then I can respond to your responses.
Bobby Bambino said:
“My, my, my. Who are you to say [that the Catholic catechism is wrong]? Every theologian, bishop, and cardinal who worked on the Catechism got it wrong then? Until Zeke.”
No, actually, my belief and position are very much in line with the great majority of Catholics of the last 100 years or so before the catechism introduced this new idea that the death penalty is a bad thing that is never justified to be used as the just punishment for capital crimes anymore. Yes, I know the catechism doesn’t say “never”, but with the way catholic bishops hedge their words (the recent bishops statement on voting put out a month ago is a good example) its as close to “never” as they feel they can safely come.
And I am a member of the Body of Christ who is fully able to read, study and apply the teaching for the Body of Christ in the bible. If someone disagrees with me then they should give evidence to show that I am wrong and they are right. If they don’t do that then I am not obligated to accept their position.
Bobby Bambino intentionally misrepresented what I said by saying:
“I can paste about 15 bible verses “proving” the doctrine of sola fide, just like you can paste verse after verse “proving” we should kill everyone.”
“Everyone”!? I never said we should kill everyone, only convicted capital criminals. If you don’t know who I mean by convicted by capital criminals I will spell it out for you. Capital criminals = convicted murderers, rapists, kidnappers, adulterers.
Is that “everyone”? Has everyone committed one of those 4 crimes? How unintelligent and thoughtless of you to claim that I think everyone should be killed.
Bobby Bambino responding to my question “Any punishment for a murderer other than execution is an unjust punishment and is therefore evil, correct?” said:
“I don’t think so because the Catholic Church doesn’t teach it. I do not subscribe to sola Zeke.”
This is mindless! Your argument isn’t an actual argument – you resign all reason and intelligence when you claim that you don’t have to preovide reason or evidence to back up your view because so-and-so (apart from God Himself) says such-and-such.
How about this Bobby? When the Catholic chruch was very pro death penalty for hundreds and hundreds of years in the past were they wrong and now in the present where they inserted this new material about the death penalty they are correct? Or were they right and now they are wrong?
See, God isn’t ambiguous and doesn’t use complicated language when talking about the death penalty. That’s why what God has eplicitly said about the death penalty in the Old and New Testament is superior to the catechism which doesn’t even use the word justice when talking about the death penalty ebcause the Catholic church isn’t concerned with criminal justice, only “social justice”.
Bobby Bambino asked:
“Have you ever heard of James R. White?”
No.
Bobby Bambino said:
“So far all I can get from you there is that the CCC is wrong.”
YES! According to the explicit statements made by God Himself and also by the Apostle Paul God still demands execution for capital criminals because it is the ONLY just punishment for capital crimes. If you can’t show WHEN and WHY God said that its OK to give a punishment other than execution for capital crimes then no one should feel compelled to give your view any real value. Perhaps you can do something as simple as share a link to an article or some explanation by a Catholic priest or bishop or pope where they detail WHEN and WHY God changed the natural criminal law where you and your church claim He allows some other punishment besides execution for capital crimes. Or WHEN and WHY God says that the unjust punishment of prison is NOW an acceptable form of punishment.
Bobby Bambino said:
“I mean, this wasn’t a part of JPII’s pontificate.”
HA! Actually, many catholics often point to one statement he wrote as support for abolishing the death penalty. Its even referenced in that paragraph in the catechism. Look up the reference if you want to know what he said.
“When was this “killing concept” big in church history?”
In the past, people had a very strong sense of justice just as Cain did when he knew that the community would want to execute him for murdering his brother Able (Genesis 4). They weren’t having this core moral part of their conscience attacked constantly by Marxists and vile nuns and priests in their neighborhoods or through newspapers or online media along with the leftist colleges and universities. When criminals were convicted they were publicly executed and crime was kept low as a result.
Only in the last 40 years have those within the catholic church been attacking God’s clear and explicit commands to execute convicted capital criminals where execution is the only just punishment that can be given. With the catholic church dying out in the USA and becoming more and more biblically illiterate lay catholics are easily duped by the mangling of passages such as John 8:1-11 and Matthew 5:21-48 which do not repeal any crime.
For a detailed explanation of what Jesus is and is not saying in these passages read this article http://www.theologyonline.com/DEATH.HTML
Bobby Bambino said:
“she’s 6 weeks yesterday- oh yeah! My goodness, is she the most beautiful little girl ever. But then again, she does sometimes cry when I don’t want her to. According to sola zeke, death penalty for her!”
When you make a statement like this you demonstrate that you do not have a reasonable, intelligent argument to back up your view.
Your statement here is an admission that I have won this argument and you have nothing intelligent to respond with to support your position.
Kristen asked with using a ?:
“What about Pope John Paul II encyclical “Evangelium Vitae” (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world’s Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate “in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”
I’d say he’d be okay with Charles Manson’s execution but not the woman noted in this story.”
You think wrong. First, some letter that John Paul II wrote is nowhere near as important as what is taught in Paul’s epistles. What God inspired through Paul’s epistles which came directly from Jesus Christ to Paul for our benefit is of the highest authority and must be obeyed.
Second, the nuns in Terre Haute, IN wanted to spare Tim McVeigh from being executed despite his killing many innocent people when he blew up that truck in Oklahoma City. They even lit a candle for him placed along with his victims.
What the vile anti-justice bishops and hierarchy are saying when they say that “Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent” is that they don’t believe there is one single case where someone should be executed. Even if they murder 10,000 people these vile nicer-than-God clergy will tell you that you can “protect” everyone from harm by simply locking the guy up in a high security prison.
These clergy only deal with what to do AFTER a capital crime has occured. They are not concerned with DETERRING these crimes from occuring because they don’t believe that God was telling the truth when He promised that the death penalty being carried out the way he commanded would be a strong deterrent to committing capital crimes. They don’t think that just government can deter crime from occuring.
This is a promise from God that is based on cause and effect. Do you believe God’s promise here or not?
Deuteronomy 17:11-13
“According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside [to] the right hand or [to] the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. 12 “Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the LORD your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. 13 “And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.”
The death penalty works as a great deterrent as long as you do it the way God says to do it – surely, swiftly, painfully and publicly.
My goal is to bring about justice and as a result being an end to the murder, rape, kidnapping and adultery epidemics currently going on in the USA. God has provided the solution in clear terms with clear instructions. I’m humble enough to consider what God says about it and recognize that His response to these crimes is wiser and more just than what I could ever come up with.
Zeke,
I know we live in the age of grace, not because some “pastor” told me, but because I ask myself this one question: If I were God, how many people would I allow to live in Heaven with me for ETERNITY?
Zeke, ask yourself the same thing? How many people, if you were God, would you allow into Heaven to live with you for ETERNITY?
Do you believe that God is Love?
I know that you feel very passionately about capital punishment. I’m sure those verses stand out to you in flashing lights because of your passion. When I read the bible, my focus is on eternity. I’m not by any means saying that you are wrong, I’m just saying that I get a sense of God’s love when I read the bible. Justice? of course, in the end…but like I said, I don’t see the verses in the same light as you because my passion for God and His word lies within His love for mankind, not the punishment of mankind.
Bethany asked:
“Zeke, explain to me this verse below. Why did Jesus refer to a statement in the Old Testament, and then give a new rule to follow concerning this law? And yes, I realize this does not have to do with adultery, and it does not have to do with capital punishment. Just answer the question.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Way to avoid answering the specific question I asked about John 8:6. I should demand that you respond to my question before I answer yours, but your question shows such a humongous lack of understanding of what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 5 that I have to address it right now. You have the biblical literacy of a common pagan.
Jesus Christ did NOT give a new law in Matthew 5:38-39. This teaching is similar to Paul’s teaching, “Do not avenge yourselves,” (in Rom 12:19 just before Paul says to fear the government who executes criminals in obedience to God’s will in Rom 13) knowing that the government is to bring wrath and vengeance against the perpetrator. The command to not avail oneself of an-eye-for-an-eye” is not a strictly New Testament concept. Many, like you Bethany, falsely presume that this is a New Testament teaching which opposes Old Testament teachings. However, the command to avoid personal vengeance was just as applicable to Old Testament believers as to us.
Proverbs 24:29
“Do not say, ‘I will do to him just as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work”.
Graciousness from the believer in his personal life is an enduring virtue and not a new concept.
Bethany claimed:
“I simply oppose your hatred.”
No, you oppose explicit universal crimanal justice revealed by God such as the execution of convicted adulterers. You hate that law that God has revealed and that remains the only just punishment for the crime of adultery. You prefer a lot of broken marriages and broken homes each year (1 million+ ??) that result from adultery rather than a few hundred convicted and executed adulterers each year. Am I correct?
FYI Bethany – the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5 does not deal with the issue of criminal justice. It specificly addresses personal behavior.
Also, Jesus Christ explicitly affirmed His support for the ENTIRE Mosaic Law in Matthew 5:17-20 where He demanded that even the least of the commandments were to be obeyed and taught if someone was to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus did not say “All of the law will stand forever and should be taught and obeyed” and then in the next long statement say “I am repealing these few laws and changing these other laws that I said would never pass”. That would be a flat out contradiction of what He said in Matthew 5:17-20 if your mangling of Matthew 5:21-48 is accurate.
ALSO
You have heard that it was said DOES NOT = It is written
Lu Anne said:
“Would YOU be willing to torture and kill this woman in front of her community?”
Kill her, YES, definitely. Torture, NO.
I would make sure that her execution was swift, painful and public. Torture would be both slow and painful. A firing squad would not be torture because it would be swift and painful.
“God did not decree that people are to “love seeing” criminals executed as your apparent blood lust and vengeful heart compel you.”
Well, God wants us to love justice I am sure of that. And I would still love to see justice brought about for her and every other murderer, rapist, kidnapper and adulterer. I don’t love seeing them executed, I love that justice is carried out and crime deterred. Deterring crime is a great thing that God wants and so do I.
“There is no passage in the Bible that instructs people to “enjoy” watching grisly executions.”
There is one that comes pretty close to saying that.
Psalm 58:10-11
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, 11 So that men will say, “Surely [there is] a reward for the righteous; Surely He is God who judges in the earth.”
“Thank God blood thirsty religious zealots such as yourself aren’t running the justice system.”
Not yet. But that will change over the coming decade :]
John McDonell claimed:
“Then there is the story about Jesus being confronted by the pharisees (I picture you as head of that pack) with a woman caught ‘in the very act of adultery’. Was she guilty …yeppers. Did she have a clue who Jesus is …. likely not! Now slowly, go over what Jesus says to her … remember they are alone … ‘Your accusers, where are they?’ ‘Gone, sir, all gone!’ Please note, Jesus’ next few words …. ‘Nor do I condemn you! …’ He comes ‘not to condemn, but to save.’
Christians are called to the same thing. The judging is NOT any part of our life in Jesus – and like Jesus we accept the punishment for the sins of others … so, THEY do not die (in their sin), but you die as an appeasement for their sin.”
You are completely wrong and I know this because 1) Jesus Christ got out of the jam He was put in in John 8 by his response and that what He did there is NOT an example of how we should respond when notified that the crime of adultery has occured AND 2) Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul explicitly taught that there is a need and duty to judge and to judge rightly.
Here is the evidence from the bible that those who love Jesus Christ must judge. By the way John, you’re judging me in your assessment of me in your post I am responding to now, so you are a hypocrite.
John 7:24
“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
1 Corinthians 6:2-5
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?
Judging is a VERY IMPORTANT PART of life in Christ Jesus.
Now I will explain why Jesus did what He did in John 8. He did not repeal the law against adultery as a result of His actions. Here’s why.
God Forgave Adulterers Before
Gomer was an adulteress yet God forgave her (Hos. 3:1). Still, He demanded that His people obey His law (Hos. 4:6).
King David committed adultery and murder (2 Sam. 11). Yet God forgave him (Psalm 32:1-5).
It was a conscious decision on God’s part to not execute David. As Nathan said to David:
As Nathan said to David:
* “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. However… by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme…” 2 Sam. 12:13
Still, God’s law remained in effect (Ps. 1:2; 19:7; 78:1, 5-8; 89:30-32; 119).
God forgave the New Testament adulterer just as He forgave Old Testament adulterers, in neither instance revoking His law. God has all authority to forgive the criminal and disregard temporal punishment. Contrariwise, Men must obey God and cannot ignore punishment.
The Pharisees Wanted to Trap Christ
The Pharisees wanted to accuse Jesus of rebelling against the Roman Empire:
* This [the Pharisees] said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. John 8:6
Rome had revoked the Jews’ authority to put a criminal to death (John 18:31). A straight-forward answer to the Pharisees would have brought Jesus into premature conflict with Rome before His “hour had come.” Jesus solved this problem stating, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first” (John 8:7). Christ often frustrated the Pharisees giving clever answers that thwarted their wicked intentions (Mat. 22:15-22; 21:21-27; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26).
Bethany said:
“Well then, I sure hope you’ve been keeping the Sabbath faithfully, Zeke.”
No, I am not keeping the Sabbath since those in the Body of Christ from the moment it started in Acts 9 with the raising up of Paul as our apostle who was given “the house rules of the grace of God” are not required to keep the Sabbath. Paul makes this clear in Romans 14 and in similar passages like Col 2:9-16.
I ONLY MENTIONED CHRIST’S TEACHING THAT THOSE JEWS WHO WANTED TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN HAD TO OBEY THE ENTIRE MOSAIC LAW BECAUSE YOU WERE CLAIMING THAT CHRIST HAD REPEALED OR CHANGED SOME OF THE MOSAIC LAW.
He only added one new law and that was to “love one another as I have loved you”.
The criminal code that Jesus Christ revealed to Moses and which He approved and upheld during His earthly ministry is STILL required by God as far as bringing about justice is concerned.
Its absolutely wrong to rape someone. Its absolutely wrong to murder someone. Its absolutely wrong to kidnap someone. Its absolutely wrong to commit adultery.
Those crimes still have and will always have the same just punishment of execution which is the only just punishment that can be given for those crimes according to God (i.e. surely be put to death). The Apostle Paul upheld and promoted the criminal code that Jesus Christ gave to Moses (Rom 2-3; Rom 7; 1 Tim 1:8-11; Eph 5:11-13) and we are to promote justice where we live and wherever we can have an influence on bringing about justice.
Zeke, I think that I am understanding what you are saying, and I think that we possibly have been talking past each other because of misunderstandings of what each other is saying. The way that you get your point across is usually with an accusatory tone, making one feel inclined to be angry and defensive, instead of responsive to your points. I do not disagree with many of your points. I do disagree with some. However, I do completely disagree with your attitude, which has been the main point of almost all of my posts towards you. Again, I tell you, if you’d like people to respond to you better, treat them as you would like to be treated.
Instead of treating us as some kind of enemy, who hate God, why not treat us as, at the very least, someone who you feel is misled and you want to lovingly show them from the scripture where they have been misled? If this is how you truly feel, that I am somehow a “pagan”, then why not try to show me the love of Christ, so that you could be an instrument of God in bringing me closer to Him? (This is only assuming I were a pagan…I am not, but just for the sake of argument).
When Philip was led by the Spirit to witness to the Ethopian Eunich, the Ethopian asked him what the scriptures meant. Did Philip immediately reply, “Well, look how stupid you are! Obviously you’re nothing but a pagan if you can’t understand the basic meaning of such a simple scripture!”
No, Philip, with patience, and respect, and the love of Christ, explained to him the content of the scripture that he was reading. And the Ethopian responded and was converted to Christ. Imagine his response if Philip had treated him as you do others here. Do you still fail to understand my point?
If you want people to respond to your message, say it with grace and patience. You’ve done a little better in the last few posts.
Zeke, when you pray, do you say “God, I thank you that I am not like other men”?
Bethany slandered me saying:
“Zeke, are you ever, in your personal life, commanded to hate your enemies? To gleefully enjoy torturing them? To mock and lash out at people without a cause?”
No, and I NEVER EVER claimed that I was. So, why in the hell are you asking me about this especially when you are asking me to comment on a different passage as a way to divert your answering my question about John 8:6? How about you answer my question I first asked about why bringing an adulterous woman to Jesus would be a way that they would have “something to accue” Him about? If you can manage to give an answer. Maybe you can’t.
Bethany continued:
“Even if we should kill all of the people you think should be killed, do you think that the Bible ever commands us to ENJOY seeing people die without a Savior? Ever? Please show me chapter and verse, in the New Testament, please, where Jesus says that we need to mock and hatefully torment people who are without a Savior, without hope.”
If God talks about His bringing about vengeance on the wicked on Judgment Day in the Old Testament then that is just as good as any New Testament reference. Especially since the Old Testament is so heavily quoted in the New Testament.
So, here is one Old Testament reference to start with since its such a good one even though you will probably throw a fit as a result of my using an Old Testament passage which you can’t tolerate for a moment.
Psalm 58:10-11
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, 11 So that men will say, “Surely [there is] a reward for the righteous; Surely He is God who judges in the earth.”
Do you think that TODAY the righteous will not rejoice when they see the vengeance? I think thats a universal thing that all saints experience.
Here are some good New testament references. Here the saints are at least asking God to avenge their deaths.
Revelation 6:9-10
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
What is the patience and faith of the saints? This is what it is.
Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
If the righteous saints mentioned in Revelation are anything like the righteous mentioned in Ps 58 then they will rejoice when they see the vengeance.
AB Laura said:
“I know we live in the age of grace, not because some “pastor” told me, but because I ask myself this one question: If I were God, how many people would I allow to live in Heaven with me for ETERNITY?
Zeke, ask yourself the same thing? How many people, if you were God, would you allow into Heaven to live with you for ETERNITY?”
I’ve asked the question and my response is: ONLY THOSE PEOPLE WHO LOVE AND TRUST ME. That also happens to be God’s response!
AB Laura continued:
“Do you believe that God is Love?”
Yes, and I live and act like it. For example, if God is love then He wants to see convicted cpital criminals executed so that would-be criminals are deterred from committing those crimes and so that those who would be hamred by those crimes are not harmed and able to live the best lives possible for God.
You don’t think that God wants people to be murdered, raped, kidnapped or betrayed by adultery do you Laura? That’s not something God wants people to experience because God is love and loves us, right?
AB Laura continued:
“I know that you feel very passionately about capital punishment. I’m sure those verses stand out to you in flashing lights because of your passion. When I read the bible, my focus is on eternity. I’m not by any means saying that you are wrong, I’m just saying that I get a sense of God’s love when I read the bible.”
Well, of course you do. You’re an overemotional girl who doesn’t care much about facts or evidence. Your arguments certainly don’t require facts or evidence, right? Its all about how you “feel”. This comes across strongly in your posts.
AB Laura said:
“Justice? of course, in the end…but like I said, I don’t see the verses in the same light as you because my passion for God and His word lies within His love for mankind, not the punishment of mankind.”
So, you are claiming that if a convicted murderer or rapist is executed that this is not an example of showing love? That justice is opposed to love? This seems to clearly be what you are saying and you are completely wrong. Its unloving to let capital criminals live. To do what is unjust is unloving, not loving.
FYI – God will punish the MAJORITY of mankind one day throwing that mass of men who rejected Him into Hell. Until then He expects the governments of the world to punish criminals with just punishments.
Zeke, when you pray, do you say “God, I thank you that I am not like other men”?
Zeke,
When I use the words “I feel”, it is not because I am overemotional…it’s called being assertive. I tend to not use aggressive wording in my posts.
Anyway, I understand your views on criminals being executed immediately, but I must ask you this: As for the murderers, rapists, etc. that are sitting in prisons for the rest of their lives, many have come to know the Lord through Christ Jesus while IN prison. Are they not forgiven by God, Zeke? Is it not a good thing that they weren’t executed immediately so they COULD have the chance to know God while in the prison system so they CAN spend eternity with Him through their revelation while in prison?
Zeke, back up your “MAJORITY” comment with scripture, please.
Bobby Bambino admitted utter defeat by asking:
“Zeke, when you pray, do you say “God, I thank you that I am not like other men”?”
No. I say “God, I thank you that I am not like that deluded, anti-intellectual Catholic shill Bobby Bambino who doesn’t care to explain in any way why he thinks God has changed absolute universal justice from requiring the death penalty as the only just punishment for murder to requiring whatever keeps people ‘safe’ from those who have already committed murder and been convicted of it!”
No. I say “God, I thank you that I am not like that deluded, anti-intellectual Catholic shill Bobby Bambino
Wow, what an admission.
AB Laura claimed:
“I must ask you this: As for the murderers, rapists, etc. that are sitting in prisons for the rest of their lives, many have come to know the Lord through Christ Jesus while IN prison. Are they not forgiven by God, Zeke? Is it not a good thing that they weren’t executed immediately so they COULD have the chance to know God while in the prison system so they CAN spend eternity with Him through their revelation while in prison?”
So, in other words, you are asking me “Why not do evil so that good may come?” Prison is an unjust punishment for any crime, but Laura here thinks that if some of these guys will come to “know Christ” (whatever she means by that) then that justifies giving an evil and unjust punishment. The Apostle Paul condemned those who think this way in Romans 3:8.
Prison is never a justified form of punishment. Even if every convicted capital criminal went to Hell in the few days between the start of their trial and their execution it wouldn’t change the fact that bringing about justice is far better than promoting the gross injustice of prison and the anti-justice legal system.
You can’t know if someone “knows Christ” so it should not be a concern when convicting and executing capital criminals. They’re far more likely to repent and trust Christ when told that they will be executed in a few days and given a real deadline to make their final decision. Much more likely than by living an indefinate amount of time locked in a prison that is funded by stealing taxpayer money.
AB Laura said:
“Zeke, back up your “MAJORITY” comment with scripture, please.”
No problem.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it.
“Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.”
Pretty clear statements there from Jesus.
Bethany said:
“Wow, what an admission.”
HAHA!! I was not admitting anything. I was being facetious and it was pretty obvious!
Bethany said:
“If you want people to respond to your message, say it with grace and patience.”
That’s just a copout you are using to run away from specific questions I ask.
Where is your response to my question about John 8:6? I answered your question even though I shouldn’t have since you haven’t answered my question yet and you purposefully asked your question to distract from my question.
Provide an answer to my question about John 8:6 or admit that what Jesus did in John 8 is NOT a model of how we are supposed to respond to the crime of adultery.
HAHA!! I was not admitting anything. I was being facetious and it was pretty obvious!
Really? You think so?
Yes Zeke, you win. I have been vanquished. You have made it clear that I nor any one else is on par with your wisdom.
Bro, you’re in my prayers. If I recall, you’re only about 20 years old. I too was quite arrogant and proud of the fact that I had the truth when I was your age. You’ll grow out of it. I’m done now. You can get in the last word TexasRed style. God love you, Zeke.
Bethany said:
“Really? You think so?”
Uhhh…yeah!!
Do you really think I pray that and mention Bobby Bambino by name like that!? ROTFL!!!!
Where is your response to my question about John 8:6? I answered your question even though I shouldn’t have since you haven’t answered my question yet and you purposefully asked your question to distract from my question.
Why do you need an answer to the question you already answered yourself, Zeke?
However, I do believe that in everything Jesus said and did, He was consistent. Even if it was just “trying to get out of a jam”, He still would not go against His principles, Zeke, so I don’t really know what your point is. When he said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is Gods”, He was being truthful. He was being consistent. When he gave that adulterous woman forgiveness for her adultery, He was consistent.
By the way, why did Jesus not condemn the woman at the well? No one was testing Him then. He could have gone His way, ignoring her. He could have told her she had no right to speak to Him, as she had had 5 husbands and was living with a man who was not her husband. But He didn’t. In fact, He gave her salvation, Zeke, and this adulterous woman went and witnessed to more people, leading them to Christ. Why is this, if you feel that He would have condemned her if not being tested? Why, if you feel that adulterous women cannot change and repent of their sin and turn around for Christ?
Do you really think I pray that and mention Bobby Bambino by name like that!? ROTFL!!!!
Of course not, Zeke. Your concern for yourself and your ego is much more important to you than Bobby Bambino is.
Sorry, actually, one last thing, Zeke. Who do you read/listen to? Like which thologians or apologists, priets etc. do you read or listen to that specifically teach what you’ve been talking about above?
Bobby Bambino said:
“Yes Zeke, you win.”
That is correct. I win because I showed what God thinks from scripture and also from reason.
For you to come out on top you would have to give some EVIDENCE showing that God changed the just punishment for these capital crimes from execution only to execution or imprisonment or whatever keeps people safe from the convicted capital criminals which is what the Catholic church has RECENTLY begun teaching in their revised editions of the catechism.
I’d like to find out. Do these magisterium people think that God changed the acceptable punishment for capital crimes in the last century when the changes to the catechism started to be made or do they think that God changed it several hundred years ago or 1,000 years ago or 1,600 years ago. I’d really love to hear their explanation.
I do know that Helen Prejean is lying when she claims that prisons did not exist and couldn’t be used to “protect” people from capital criminals since prisons are mentioned MANY times in the Old Testament, so God knew that prisons existed yet He rejected using imprisonment as a form of punishment.
I’ll do another search online here and see if I can find an explanation, but I won’t hold my breath. I’ll probably find more lies and anti-intellectual Catholic propaganda where they just cite the catechism and leave out any rational explanation about WHEN and WHY God saw fit to change it.
That is correct. I win because I showed what God thinks from scripture and also from reason.
Getting the last word is not the same thing as “winning”.
Wait a sec… sorry, I said I was done, but are you Catholic, Zeke? I honestly thought you were. If not, we’re on two totally different pages and I never would have gotten involved in this convo. It seems from you above post that you aren’t.
Bobby Bambino asked:
“Who do you read/listen to? Like which thologians or apologists, priets etc. do you read or listen to that specifically teach what you’ve been talking about above?”
Let me think a bit……….
I’ve listened to Helen Prejean speak and asked her questions after her speech where she promoted the lie that prisons did not exist back in the Old Testament or even New Testament times until Augustine if I recall right. I actually have video of her speech on YouTube that I can look at again if I want to give an exact quote.
For those who don’t know, Helen Prejean is a nun who is the big Catholic anti-death penalty crusader.
I also have my priests here in Northern Indiana that I have talked with along with lay Catholics in the area and I have also gotten experience through Catholic Answers.
My experience has spanned years, so I am well qualified to comment on it.
I don’t know why you can’t just carry on a civil conversation like most of us. I don’t know why you have to feel like you have to “defeat” someone every time you post. lol It’s silly. Childish.
Heck, even SOMG can carry on a decent conversation every now and then.
Bethany said:
“Getting the last word is not the same thing as “winning”.”
I never said that getitng the last word was the same thing as winning you dope. I specificly said that I won becuase I showed frmo scripture and reason that what I believe is correct.
For Bobby to come out on top he has to show that God changed what is acceptable punishment to bring about justice for capital crimes since the end of the New Testament period and he did not do that.
Catholic Answers? Wow, I podcast to them everyday, but I’ve never heard them teaching anything like what you’ve been saying. So which one of their apologists is teaching this?
Bethany said:
“He was being consistent. When he gave that adulterous woman forgiveness for her adultery, He was consistent.”
Jesus didn’t “forgive” her for committing adultery. He simply gave a response that made her accusers run away and then told her to go and sin no more.
For all we know that woman ended up in Hell.
Bethany asked:
“By the way, why did Jesus not condemn the woman at the well? No one was testing Him then. He could have gone His way, ignoring her. He could have told her she had no right to speak to Him, as she had had 5 husbands and was living with a man who was not her husband. But He didn’t. In fact, He gave her salvation, Zeke, and this adulterous woman went and witnessed to more people, leading them to Christ. Why is this, if you feel that He would have condemned her if not being tested? Why, if you feel that adulterous women cannot change and repent of their sin and turn around for Christ?”
Well, for one thing, Jesus Christ is God and He can go around and do what He pleases. And it pleased Him at that time to get the word out about Himself so as many people as possible would be ready to believe and become a part of His kingdom once He returned within a few years to rule as king in Israel (Acts 3:19-26) and expand that rule throughout the world (Acts 1:8).
I don’t know what you expected Jesus to do with that wench that had been married 5 times. Are you saying that He should have asked the local government there to have her convicted of adultery or something and then stoned? Being divorced 5 times is not the same as committing adultery 5 times. You can get married and legally divorced so you can have the ability to re-marry once divorced.
Jesus didn’t “forgive” her for committing adultery. He simply gave a response that made her accusers run away and then told her to go and sin no more.
For all we know that woman ended up in Hell.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Forgive:
# absolve from payment;
Bobby said:
“Catholic Answers? Wow, I podcast to them everyday, but I’ve never heard them teaching anything like what you’ve been saying. So which one of their apologists is teaching this?”
I recall reading an online newsletter from Keating that basicly said the usual Catholic junk about the most important thing not being justice, but protecting people from those who have already been convicted of murder, rape, kidnapping, adultery.
And I have some past experience on this in the Catholic Answers forums as well. That was most of it.
Hey, if anyone likes I will be glad to debate them publicly if its anywhere in Northern Indiana or the Chicago area or Souther Michigan or West or NW Ohio. Would be glad to get it on video and share rights to it.
Being divorced 5 times is not the same as committing adultery 5 times. You can get married and legally divorced so you can have the ability to re-marry once divorced.
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery; and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. Matt 16: 18
Well, for one thing, Jesus Christ is God and He can go around and do what He pleases. And it pleased Him at that time to get the word out about Himself so as many people as possible would be ready to believe and become a part of His kingdom once He returned within a few years to rule as king in Israel (Acts 3:19-26) and expand that rule throughout the world (Acts 1:8).
you mean, there’s more important things than “JUSTICE”, Zeke?
Are you saying that He should have asked the local government there to have her convicted of adultery or something and then stoned?
I wouldn’t be the one to say that, Zeke.
Bethany wrote:
“When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Forgive: # absolve from payment;”
If Jesus had forgiven her He would have said “Your sins are forgiven”. Jesus was pretty explicit when He was forgiving someone because it was an act that demonstrated his divinity.
He simply said that He did not condemn her in that instance. You can be sure that if she went and committed adultery again that He would definitely condemn her on Judgment Day if she did not repent and enter the narrow gate to eternal life.
He simply said that He did not condemn her in that instance. You can be sure that if she went and committed adultery again that He would definitely condemn her on Judgment Day if she did not repent and enter the narrow gate to eternal life.
Well, Duh-huh, Zeke. What is your point?
He forgave her of her sin in that instance. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
“Hey, if anyone likes I will be glad to debate them publicly if its anywhere in Northern Indiana or the Chicago area or Souther Michigan or West or NW Ohio. Would be glad to get it on video and share rights to it.”
Zeke, I can’t tell if you’re out to win arguments or win souls for Christ. I mentioned him above, but if you ever read Jimmy Akin’s blog, you may have seen some of his dialogue with James R White. James White will debate anyone, anywhere, at any time. All he cares about is winning arguments (he is Reformed Baptist). Seriously, check out his website at http://www.aomin.org . I see a lot of you in him.
Bethany asked:
“you mean, there’s more important things than “JUSTICE”, Zeke?”
No, I did not say that at all.
Jesus was teaching how He wanted Jews and eventually Samaritans and others to act once He entered into His kingdom. He was not saying that anyone there should try to make the Samaritan government or the Greek/Israeli government change their laws in the near future since He was planning on coming back and ruling with a rod of iron Himself (Rev 19:15) within a very short time, even before they could go through all the villages of Israel preaching His message (Matt 10:23).
Goodnight–I’ll be back later to debate some more.
Bethany claimed:
“He forgave her of her sin in that instance. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?”
Since this is God saying this to the woman I am sure that if God wanted to say that He actually forgave her for her crime then He would have said “Your sins are forgiven” as He did to those He actually forgave.
Hi Zeke,
I had never suspected that anyone could come anywhere near what you postulate. As AB Laura claims you do ‘read into’ scripture by your tendency to bold-type certain passages to emphasize YOUR take on these verses …. but we all do this.
St. Paul constantly talks of the ‘new’ life of entering God’s kingdom brings about. We, the ‘saved’, are those who enter … become one IN Jesus … (remarkable that one little word can change so many things). I used to teach this stuff by saying … picture a flame (God) on a birthday candle. One thing to note that the life of the flame is very different than the life of the candle. Also note that the candle dies-to the flame … our earthly life can be likened to that of the candle.
Righteous judgment, which only God can do, is now possible for the ‘saints’ because they have entered the flame/Christ-Jesus. As one of my friends says – only God IS holy … true, true … but through Jesus the flame/divine-brotherly life is now extended to/in us …. we too become holy, God’s saints are holy!
Now re-read your quote of Corinthians especially vs.5 and why Paul said their was not one able to judge rightly … before entrance they did not have the ‘power’ to judge righteously. Once ‘inside’ though they have God’s power to forgive … a power only God can exercise … note: the lesson of the paralytic (the one lowered from the rooftop on a stretcher) …. how many times are we commanded to forgive? … ’70 times 7′ …. and all because we are one ‘in Jesus’. So the forgiveness of the woman caught in adultery was not a one-opt but rather a template to extend God’s Life of Mercy to us sinners.
Bobby said:
“Zeke, I can’t tell if you’re out to win arguments or win souls for Christ. I mentioned him above, but if you ever read Jimmy Akin’s blog, you may have seen some of his dialogue with James R White. James White will debate anyone, anywhere, at any time.”
I valuse the truth much more than you apparently, since you seem to have this mindless emotional attachment to the catcholic magisterium which you don’t seem to require an account from as far as explaining their doctrine.
The truth is important and I am tired of so many alleged Christians going around saying that God wants injustice and that injustice and mercy are the same thing so justice is then a bad thing.
I also hate scum like you Bobby who once they have been defeated in a debate say completely false things about the person who just defeated you.
Look back at some of the things you claim I believe. Such as if a baby cried then I think it should be killed or that “everyone should be killed”. Remember when you said those things about me? If not just scroll up to read what you said.
I’m gonna go celebrate the New Year now and rejoice in the fact that I want what God wants – justice.
Hope no one in your family gets murdered, raped, kidnapped or is a victim of the crime of adultery in 2008!
John McDonell asserted:
“Now re-read your quote of Corinthians especially vs.5 and why Paul said their was not one able to judge rightly … before entrance they did not have the ‘power’ to judge righteously. Once ‘inside’ though they have God’s power to forgive … a power only God can exercise … note: the lesson of the paralytic (the one lowered from the rooftop on a stretcher) …. how many times are we commanded to forgive? … ’70 times 7′ …. and all because we are one ‘in Jesus’. So the forgiveness of the woman caught in adultery was not a one-opt but rather a template to extend God’s Life of Mercy to us sinners.”
FIRST, Christ did not FORGIVE the woman caught in adultery, He just didn’t condemn her at that moment. Again, if He had forgiven He would have made it clear in that instance and used the word forgive.
SECOND, we are only to forgive those who repent as Jesus explicitly taught in Luke 17:3.
Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
See that? Step 1: Rebuke him. If he repents proceed to step 2: forgive him.
We are not to forgive the unrepentant just as God will not forgive the unrepentant.
THIRD, nowhere in the bible does it say that forgiveness is “only a power that God can exercise”. In fact, I deny that if one person forgives another that it happens because God exercised some sort of His own power in order to make the person bring it about. Its something that the person who is offering forgiveness to the repentant person alone can bring about. If they don’t wanna do it then they won’t do it. Furhtermore, God is not me and I am not God, we are ontologically distinct. So, if I forgive someone its because I decided to forgive that repentant person, not because God made me do it.
“I also hate scum like you Bobby who once they have been defeated in a debate say completely false things about the person who just defeated you.”
I love you, Zeke. You’re in my prayers.
Sure ya do Bobby. Can you believe that you claimed that I would want to execute an innocent baby just because he/she cried? Or that you would claim that I want to see “everyone” killed?
Maybe scum wasn’t the best word, the best word is loser. You lost, so you resorted to saying extremely false things about what I believe.
And I will not forgive you for the false things you said about me Bobby until you repent of having done so. If you wanna show real love ina ction then you should do that one little thing, otherwise you don’t love me at all.
Look Zeke, I never really thought you want to kill everyone or an innocent baby. I was joking around with Doug. You were being sarcastic above too. I’m sorry if it offended you.
And I do love you. Seriously, we’re all in the same boat here, searching for the truth. YOu are obviously extremly passionate about our Lord, and know his word very, very well. I desire heaven for you.
Absolutely, Zeke. I do apologize. I never meant what I said to be taken seriously. When I wrote that, I was not under the impression that I was accuretly portraying your belief, and I didn’t think others would take it that way either. But if they did, and especially since you did, I am sorry. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
OK
Hey Zeke,
then what did Jesus mean when He said “Is it easier to say ‘your sins are forgiven you, or, get-up and walk?’ … to show He had power to forgive sins … He told the man to get up. The man got up and went home.” Please note: that no where does it say that the man repented of his sin at all, let alone first.
As for the woman-caught-in-adultery and the word forgiveness … it might mean something legalistic to you, but I sure would be hard-pressed to find such strictness about the use of this word. To you there is forgiveness given on just that occasion only, because He did not use the word ‘forgive’. So, besides the paralytic; the ‘Our Father …’, and His command to Peter ‘to forgive 70 times 7’ …. what does Jesus mean by us having to ‘forgive’ others? …. are all these (and others) all singular occasions? And why does He ask us to forgive … it is pretty strongly worded that you will be judged according to how you forgave and not by your obsession to seek justice.
What does it mean then to be one in Jesus – one in the Son of God – to be adopted children of God, if not that we are invited to share in His Divine Life … a life of forgiveness, mercy and peace? In a way, to say that you are not God (as emphatically as you do) is to claim NOT to be Christian, let alone Catholic.
oh yeah * headdesk* forgot: “Forgive them Abba, they know not what they do.” from His cross, Jesus forgives me and now I have the power to repent.
You’re a biblically illiterate fool John McDonell.
Jesus Christ did NOT forgive all sin while He was dying on the cross. He forgave ONE SPECIFIC SIN COMMITTED OUT OF IGNORANCE – THAT THEY WERE KILLING GOD IN THE FLESH.
For you to argue otherwise would mean that Jesus meant that they did not realize they were killing a man. Of course, they new for sure that they were killing a man!
And it is true that I am NOT God because I utterly reject the heresies of PANTHEISM and MONISM which do not recognize an ontological distinction between God and His creation. Its a necessary doctrine of the Christian faith to assert that God is ontologically distinct from His creation.
Its true that if Jesus Christ wanted to make it clear that He forgave that girl He would have said “Your sins are forgiven”. He didn’t say that. He said to go and sin no more and that He didn’t condemn her which is very different.
Jesus Christ’s very specific instructions on forgiveness that He gave in Luke 17:3 still stands – you must only forgive those who repent or your forgiveness is garbage and won’t bring about the goal which is reconciliation. Reconciliation is far more important than forgiveness and is dependent upon the offender repenting so that they may be forgiven and reconciliation achieved.
Jiminy crickets.
With all this idiotic bickering going on, it certainly makes me glad that I’m not Christian. Life is much more simple when you don’t follow a vaguely worded book that can be interpreted in dozens of different ways.
Rae, with all due respect, anything can be interpreted in a different light than any particular writer intended it.
If someone wants to make the Bible, or people who represent the Bible, sound bad…they sure can! (as some here will make sure we all know).
But you can also make anyone or anything,/i> sound bad, by taking their words, their actions, etc out of context or spinning what they said.
Just because one can spin something to make it sound bad, doesn’t mean that it is necessarily an invalid source of information, or that it isn’t a good source of wisdom, simply based on that fact.
I doubt you question the theory of evolution simply because there is much dispute over it…see what I’m saying?
My life is very simple, it is not complicated because of the Bible. I get heated over debating with Zeke, but not because we are discussing, or disagreeing on what the Bible says, but simply because Zeke has a bad attitude and is very hateful.
Anyway, just wanted to say that so you’d see my point of view. :-)
Did you ever make those mushroom wontons?
@Bethany: ‘pologies, wasn’t meaning to offend you…just trying to annoy Zeke actually. :-3
I didn’t get around to making the mushroom wontons. I got so busy with finals and then working full-time I never got around to it, sorry! I do plan to get around to it in the upcoming weeks though!
No problem, Rae. :) It sounds like you have been very busy lately! We have been too…especially since James has actually been home this Christmas and New year. It’s been nice having him here. Hope your Christmas and New year were wonderful!
You’re a biblically illiterate fool John McDonell
Ay yi yi, Zeke – it seems you are intensely and single-mindedly bent only on proving you are among the least Christian people on earth.
Again, I think this is more about you just wanting a forum to express your own personal hatred, likely self-hatred at the root, more than you caring about the issues.
Also, shame on you for trying to be mean to John. I mean, really….
Doug
Just to let you know, when you’re talking to Zeke, you’re talking to this young girl here:
Are you sure Zeke is a girl? I thought it was a guy… I called Zeke “bro” a few times and wasn’t corrected…
No, I know for sure this is the same Zeke. She uses “Zeke” because of Ezekiel 13:19 which is her favorite verse, apparently. lol
I thought she was a guy for a LONG time too!
Her real name is “Quinn”, by the way.
Oh Bethany, very stealth!
:: laughing ::