How not to hold a Planned Parenthood fundraiser
On May 28, Denver pro-abort millionaires Joris and Regina Brinkerhoff planned an extravagent $275-a-plate fundraiser for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains at their $5 million home at 1681 E. Cedar Ave., with its beautiful backyard view of the Denver Country Club.
I’m told the night was gorgeous – as was the location – for pro-lifers to help the Brinkerhoffs educate and entertain their guests.
Pro-lifers greeted guests to the mansion with “Baby” and “Killers” signs they were forced to drive between, large graphic photos of aborted babies, and even a bloody abortion doctor carrying bloody dolls thanking them for their help:
If guests tried to play smart and bypass the main entrance for the back, pro-lifers were one step ahead, also there to greet them with a truth truck, more signs, and sidewalk art…
Then, what a stroke of luck for pro-lifers: A public alley flanked the Brinkerhoff garden and terrace with an unabstructed view!
Pro-lifers reassembled during cocktail hour to remind pro-aborts what exactly their donations were funding. Pro-aborts didn’t linger outside long:
Then came the dinner dilemma. According to the Passionate Pro-Lifer, “salads were delivered to the tables on the terrace by waiters and waitress in formal attire only to sit in the elements for over an hour….”
Finally guests ventured out. After they were seated, a pro-life pastor kindly prayed for the meal from the alley and began to preach. A waiter then upped the ampage on a boom box to drown out helpful information about eternal life, but between songs pro-lifers chanted, “No killing with tranquility.” I’ll say. This was one of the best examples yet.
[HT: Leslie Hanks of the Passionate Pro-Lifer]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Too bad this didn’t happen last November. I would’ve loved to have made the trip from Colorado Springs to Denver to participate in something like this, especially because around that time I still had my HUGE pregnant belly on me. But alas, I no longer live in that state. :(
I love the work these guys in Denver do to save the lives of the unborn children. I wish I could have been there with them.
xalisae, we had the same idea at the time :))
Well, it seems those rich people got a taste of what their money was going to do. Who knows, maybe it touched them, or planted a seed. If not, at least it let them know that they can’t promote baby killing in peace.
Perhaps someone should contact them and ask them if they would be willing to donate to a poor, pregnant mother who does NOT want to kill her baby. If it was done through a church, or maybe a secular organization, so that the pro-abort lies about Crisis Pregnancy Centers wouldn’t apply, I wonder if they would donate? Or is killing babies the only help they are willing to give to the young, poor, and pregnant? If so, they certainly deserve the harassment.
I don’t know why, but this way of protesting seems rather…childish to me.
I think it’s because the protesters are harassing people near private property. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
“Perhaps someone should contact them and ask them if they would be willing to donate to a poor, pregnant mother who does NOT want to kill her baby. If it was done through a church, or maybe a secular organization, so that the pro-abort lies about Crisis Pregnancy Centers wouldn’t apply, I wonder if they would donate?”
I bet that they would.
Hey, i just thought of something. I wonder how much money these rich people are willing to donate to the adoption cause? Hard core pro-aborts hate adoption and want it outlawed because it provides a life affirming choice to women that they think should be aborting their babies.
Ceecee, lol. And not because I agree with you.
Stephanie. We need to take our message everywhere, including into residential communities. Many communities are blind-sided and don’t even realize PP kills babies and works to keep rapists on the streets to ffend over and over. I put signs up about PP killing babies and in my neighborhood, which has no abortion clinics, most of my community was completely unaware that PP was anything but birth control. The longer we let them hide the greater their deception spreads into more and more communities.
Pro-life needs to get pro-active and expose them ahead of time even where they haven’t yet been able to put up abortion mills.
Planned Parenthood Kills Babies
Planned Parenthood Lies to You
I was just reading an article about those weird little “orbs” that show up in photographs. Some people think they are angels, some think they are demons, some think they’re ghosts and some think they are dust motes. Not sure what I think, but you have to wonder…which side of the spirit world do you think those orbs in the last picture are from???
Maybe they’re the souls of the unborn? Just throwin’ it out there.
TS, that’s uncanny! Hehe
I have mixed feelings about some of the protesting done here.
I think the truck and pictures were a good idea because it reminds these people what they support and how this lifestyle was attained – through the destruction of very young helpless children.
However, holding out a “bloody” doll as SUV’s drive by makes a person look like they are a few short. I just don’t believe this tactic is effective.
I guess Joris and Regina (what a lovely name too) have made their heaven on earth.
Patricia,
I have a hard time with the bloody doll as well.
test
I can guarantee, GUARANTEE, that having those fools out front and back harassing those good people who worked hard to get an education and achieve financial success worked in MY favor.
I can tell you for a fact that the sort of behavior those pro-lifers enaged in opens wallets, greases check cards, and sets checkbooks to SMOKIN”!
I will assure you that the neighbors in that affluent area – the ones whose children were exposed to those signs and had questions and nightmares – were annoyed enough to do the same.
The Democrats are in a position to spend nearly FIVE TIMES what the Repubes will have to spend in the next election cycle.
I would like to thank every protester at that fundraiser for making my job THAT MUCH EASIER!
Hi Laura,
May I ask what your job is?
Hi Laura,
May I ask what your job is?
Posted by: Carla at May 31, 2008 8:49 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In real life I manage a large/small animal veterinay practice, but as soon as we have a candidate I’m going to take a five-month leave of absence to work for the Democratic Party.
I can guarantee, GUARANTEE, that having those fools out front and back harassing those good people who worked hard to get an education and achieve financial success worked in MY favor.
What makes you think they don’t have educations?…….. Bitter much?
I don’t have a problem with they bloody doll. Why?
I have to say this really bothers me. Signs..fine. Protestors..ok. Guy dressed up like a doctor running around with bloody baby dolls?!! Are you trying to make us look crazy?!! Oh and making people drive through the baby killers sign seems a little unsafe to me. What if somebody missed one of the poles and accidently hit someone? Could the person hit sue the driver of the car? I really think the only statement that was made here was “Pro-lifer’s are crazy.” This makes me sad because I’m pro-life.
How did they make your life easier? Prove it or post some facts. Just like Somg. I can’t go on your word alone.
So it is all about you Laura?
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I can guarantee, GUARANTEE, that having those fools out front and back harassing those good people who worked hard to get an education and achieve financial success worked in MY favor.
Yet you want to come to a blog every single day and talk to pro life fools. It doesn’t add up. I mean, don’t you have anything better to do? Go do it. Nobody is really even learning anything from your posts anyway. *shrugs*
Actually, people do learn something from your posts, Laura. You like to talk about yourself a lot. That’s usually a sign of low self esteem and insecurity.
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I have to say this really bothers me. Signs..fine. Protestors..ok. Guy dressed up like a doctor running around with bloody baby dolls?!! Are you trying to make us look crazy?!! ————————————————– Elizabeth, don’t worry. They look like bigger fools than we ever wll when they march in DC with their PLASTIC coathangers and their shirts that say “BABY KILLER”
So because they resort to class-less propaganda, then it’s okay for us to do so?
I’m sorry, I just think we’re better than that.
Oh well. To each their own.
It’s good that they make these people face the reality of what they support.
I support them 100%.
It’s good that they make these people face the reality of what they support.
It sure is. Except for the crazy guy dressed up like a doctor waving bloody baby dolls around. Sorry, that’s just crazy to me. If it were some woman walking around with fake blood all over her and carrying a bloody coathanger..you’d think she was crazy too. It’s no different. They both make their side look reallllllly bad.
Trust me. Look at some pictures for the March For Women’s “Lives.” hahaha. Ironic. Women wear dresses with fake blood on the crotch area. This and a coathanger in hand.
mk, the orbs are dust, illuminated by the flash, and out of focus because it is too close to the camera. Sorry, no disembodied souls in any of those photos.
As for the demonstration itself, I think it is amusing that you all think this is wonderful, bloody baby dolls and all, but are completely put out by an abortionist who hangs a rubber chicken in the window.
For an organization that garners millions in revenue annually, why on earth do they need fundraisers?
Cannulas shouldn’t be that expensive. SoMG, how much does a box of those cost?
Ray, I’m not shocked by an abortionist hanging a rubber chicken in the window at all. They’re all wacked.
I always LMAO at their picture of a car with a cardboard sign that reads “Abortion Clinic” Scare tactics much? Um, how about you don’t get pregnant in the first place?
I wish I could show you guys what happens to those innocent animals that are tortured so you can eat something “tasty”, even though (with the exception of Bethany) I’m sure you never even tried any vegetarian meals. I’d post links but you just ignore them. Do you really think it’s right to ignore this?
Give Pea’s a Chance!!!!
Jess, why are you asking people to give up meat? You did this last time.
I want to eat meat, and I will continue to do so.
Is it just me, or does Laura sound pretty irate for someone who says they’ve just had their job made easier? I think she’s probably mad because she is either just like them, or aspires to be, so this hits close to home. I suppose to Democrats, reminding someone of all the bloody infant bodies which have been piled up so they can climb their social ladder constitutes a low blow. I do think it’s cute how she assumes the protesters are uneducated and the socialite fundraisers are.
Thank you for this posting. It will be used to show the voters of Colorado the group behind the doomed “personhood amendment”- a bunch of extremist crazies with no respect for the rights and property of others.
You’re one to talk. You show no respect for the unborn, and why should anyone have to PROVE personhood to you?? This is a given!
Did you notice the guy in the SUV laughing as he passed the “doctor” with the bloody doll? I’m willing to bet that a large majority of the fundraisers viewed the protesters as whack jobs, rather than being actually educated by them.
And I believe the orbs in photographs are sun flares, you can get rid of them with a lens hood (or just using your hand to shade).
xalisae, No. You are right on the money with her. She doesn’t sound happy at all. Just BITTER!
Flares from the lighting, I mean
Everyone should know that an abortion kills a baby. Why do we have to educate you? Go get a biology or anatomy book at your local library. It’s simple.
Never even heard it questioned until I came to Jill’s blog! I swear to God! Women get pregnant with babies. What else would it be, and why does anyone have to define personhood to anyone? I don’t understand why pro-aborts don’t get that!
I really think the only statement that was made here was “Pro-lifer’s are crazy.” This makes me sad because I’m pro-life.
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 31, 2008 9:19 AM
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Elizabeth, I used to be a volunteer and fundraiser for PETA. This was WAY back in the day when PETA was considered a benevolent and good-hearted organization – you know – before the freaks destroyed it.
If I live to be a million, I will never forget the day when one of our regular donors gave us a thousand dollar donation in cash. When asked why it was in cash, she replied that she was toying with the idea of running for mayor in Marin, and she couldn’t afford to have her IRS returns state that she had donated to what was quickly becoming a “fringe” organization.
I left shortly after that.
I can’t tell you the exact moment PETA turned into a pack of lepers that nobody could afford to be seen with, but I DO know that it’s taken almost two decades of ads featuring nude celebrities to get back to the mainstream.
Ha, didn’t Pam Anderson jump on that PETA bandwagon along with Jenna Jameson? I think they were picketing KFC! LMAO. Oh well. To each their own.
I LOVE MEAT! I LOVE CHICKEN! I’ll eat it till the day I die.
heather, let’s agree to disagree? You can have the right to eat meat if women have the right to get abortions.
Nope. 2 very different issues.
I spent some time visiting my cousins pet chickens while visiting my Grandma. These chickens are very smart, smarter then any newborn. They no their names, they know the difference between people, they know when they get feed and they know to file into their little barn at the end of the day. They also know where to go in the yard. They don’t need fences, they know not to wander off. And when you walk up to them they look up at you with curiosity. And it’s interesting to hear them “talking” to one another : )
I spent some time visiting my cousins pet chickens while visiting my Grandma. These chickens are very smart, smarter then any newborn. They no their names, they know the difference between people, they know when they get feed and they know to file into their little barn at the end of the day. They also know where to go in the yard. They don’t need fences, they know not to wander off. And when you walk up to them they look up at you with curiosity. And it’s interesting to hear them “talking” to one another : )
Huh?
How are they different heather? Just because your religion tells you that human’s are more important then animals doesn’t make it true. If I had a religion that said that men weren’t as important as women could I have a free pass to kill them?
Sorry for the double post.
Jess, maybe you should call the abortionist who hung the rubber chicken in his window. I don’t know what else to tell ya.
Jess, how does abortion empower women? How many baby girls are ground up in suction machines every year? The message abortion sends to me is that women DON’T MATTER!
Read Lime 5 and get back to me.
People who don’t think animals are intelligent and caring either haven’t spent any time around them or abuse them.
I once had a horse. I’ve had a few dogs. I loved them.
heather, how does meat help you? Does it empower you? How does killing an innocent animal, usually sick and injured, help you? You eat it? You can easily survive without eating meat, and you can live a better life too.
At least having sex is fun.
You loved them, how? What did you just feed them and keep them clean? And animal needs more then that. They need attention and love and a good family, just like a human.
You need meat in your diet. It makes me feel good.
I agree 100% with Elizabeth on this subject. Look at the guy in the SUV laughing at that fool with the bloody baby doll.
The people at the party probably knew what would happen and used the protesters as entertainment.
I feel sorry for that young boy in the red shirt in that picture. It’s sad that he looks so proud of the nutty spectacle they’re making of themselves.
Jess, with all due respect, don’t pimp your PETA on me. I’m not up for it. This is a pro life blog where we talk about abortion. Stick to the topic.
Anonymous, your side has plenty of nut jobs, so I wouldn’t throw that term around if I were you. I used to be Pro-choice. Your peeps turned me off.
You feel sorry for the boy in the red shirt? What about the beheaded babies?
Heather,
I’m pro-life. And of course I feel sorry for aborted babies, I just don’t feel protests like this one are effective in promoting the pro-life cause. Sorry.
Hey Jess, if you’re pro choice, you really shouldn’t concern yourself with what other people do. Eating meat is a choice.
I never mentioned PETA. Pro-life blog? It seems to me that we aren’t really about life, well, more specifically sometimes it seems like this movement is just trying to get people to have as many babies as possible as soon as possible. Marry young, no contraceptives, God want’s you to have a big family, you can’t be happy without a big family, you’ll die poor and alone unless you have a lot of kids…
Heather,
I’m pro-life. And of course I feel sorry for aborted babies, I just don’t feel protests like this one are effective in promoting the pro-life cause. Sorry.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 31, 2008 11:17 AM————————————————————- So, what would you do differently?
Jess, you’re talking about animals again! This is the second time you have made it all about not eating meat.
I know heather, that’s why you forcing your choice on those poor animals just kills me. People here are always saying I don’t have a heart, but how can you look into the big, gentle eyes of a sweet cow and still cut it up into little pieces and eat it?
Let them laugh. They are the people killing babies. Not me.
http://www.thedjlinkdomain.co.uk/pictures/cute/cow.jpg
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/devel/clevage.gif
Can you really say the later has more of a right to live, want’s to live any more, then the former?
Okay Jess. No more debating about animals for me.
“Let them laugh. They are the people killing babies. Not me.”
So you don’t care that they support the choice of abortion? Good.
BTW, that’s a girl in the red shirt.
This is a pro life blog where we talk about abortion. Stick to the topic.
Posted by: heather at May 31, 2008 11:09 AM
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Really?
Jill’s latest post and poll are about domestic oil drilling.
Jess, don’t put words in my mouth. Enjoy your support of abortion rights. There is nothing more I can do for you.
Pro choicers will be around long after you and I are dead and gone. I can’t do anything about that.
Really?
Jill’s latest post and poll are about domestic oil drilling.
Posted by: Laura at May 31, 2008 11:27 AM ————- Not this post.
“BTW, that’s a girl in the red shirt.”
With the t-shirt, “Jesus is the standard”? Pro-life for Christians! Un-saved not welcome. Is that why I’ve heard the holocaust described as “trivial” on this site? Of course it would be, it was just killing some Jews. But abortion kills CHRISTIAN babies!!!! That’s not even in the same ball park!
How do you know what religion I am? I may be agnostic.
No jeering sideshow antics – make it very solemn – gut wrenching, thoughtful.
I would have divided the street in half – one side filled with young woman all holding infants or dolls. Dozens of them -baby carriages, strollers, you name it. Each woman has the child’s age on a sign in weeks and “+ 40 weeks”. Place banners at each end labeled “Life”.
On the entrance side of the street I would have lined more young women, with each one holding a photo of a dead baby where their womb is – and the gestational ages in weeks. Place a banner at each end labeled “Death”
Have someone at each end of the street holding a placard “Choice?”
Right before the entrance another set of signs – “Please choose Life.”
I wonder how many people could drive through such a gauntlet unmoved, especially if it stretched for some time down both sides of the street.
Jess, I am not here to change you, so enjoy your life and what you stand for.
Chris, there is a good idea.
Well, I’m sure all the cow, chickens and pigs who weren’t killed because of me are super happy about what I stand for.
Fine. Good job.
Wow- that’s classy *and* mature.
Not.
Good job making pro-lifers look like they’re nucking futs…do you really think people are going to take us seriously after having a dude dressed as a “doctor” chucking a bloody baby doll at people? Good grief.
Thank you, Chris Pompous Arse (enault) for once again weighing in with your unlimited wisdom, and expertise in all matters.
Where do you plan to get all the “young women” to make up your demonstration? From one of Warren Jeff’s compounds?
Anonymous, you really come off as angry. Now who looks bad??
Name calling? Now I’ve just lost respect for you for stooping.
Anonymous, Gee. I though you said you were pro-life. Go tell the PC goons that their red crotch paint ain’t that impressive. Put away the plastic coathangers. There wasn’t one documented case of a coathanger abortion.
@Heather: There are multiple “Anonymous” posters, fyi.
Rae, I know, but I believe that’s the same person.
@heather: Gotcha. :)
You know, this is what we should do regarding all the pedophile priests. Protest outside the houses of bishops until each one of them (the preists and the bishops) resigns.
While I don’t support the protest outside private residences, as members of the church, we are protesting on “our” land; and unlike private residences where protests could scare small children, protests outside the houses of church officials do not carry that same burden because (theoretically) bishops and preists don’t have kids…but thats only speaking theoretically.
Anon, who’s stopping you? DO IT!
The key to ending legalized abortion is changing people’s hearts.
The only Being in the Universe that can change hearts is God Almighty and that through the preaching of His word. Even God can’t change soneone who isn’t willing to listen and He gives them over their sin. We should too.
I have to agree that this sort of spectacle probably does little to support the cause because all that’s being done is finger pointing. People’s minds are changed by that, it only enrages them.
The only Being in the Universe that can change hearts is God Almighty and that through the preaching of His word. Even God can’t change soneone who isn’t willing to listen and He gives them over their sin. We should too.
His Man, I totally agree!!
Human’s can plant the seed, but they don’t get the credit. Only God gets the credit!
The only Being in the Universe that can change hearts is God Almighty and that through the preaching of His word. Even God can’t change soneone who isn’t willing to listen and He gives them over their sin. We should too.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
Jess,
Your love for cows and chickens is sweet. Do you eat the chickens eggs?
Maybe the protestors, instead of waving bloody dolls, could have staged a “baby shower” with everyone holding wrapped gifts and signs of babies, blankets and toys, etc…and then donated them to a local women’s center after the protest.
I like that idea, Janet.
I think the prolife group in Chicago does that sort of thing around Christmas, but they call it an empty manger thing and they bring gifts to donate to crisis pregnancy centers.
I agree the bloody doll / doctor thing was tacky.
Hi Ray,
I have a problem with the bloody doll and so did a few others who are prolife.
I like your idea too, Janet!!
It would have been more effective if they had an Obama look-alike and an abortionist with bloodied dolls :)) ha..ha…ha…
And a baby shower. And xalisae pregnant.
Ray,
Maybe you missed it so I am posting it a third time cause I woul really like to understand your answer to a post you made a couple weeks ago:
I do believe that evil exists, but I do not believe that abortion is evil. Sad, yes, but not evil. If I thought it was evil, I wouldn’t be out there defending with my physical presence.
Posted by: Ray at May 16, 2008 9:02 PM
Ray, I can think of nothing more intrinsically evil then a woman intentionally killing the child inside her womb. What is your definition of evil?
Posted by: truthseeker at May 30, 2008 12:16 AM
“I have to agree that this sort of spectacle probably does little to support the cause because all that’s being done is finger pointing. People’s minds are changed by that, it only enrages them.”
@HisMan: Holy flying monkeys! I agree with you!
Do you feel that sudden drop in temperature? I think that’s Hell freezing over…
Jess,
Do you really think that a chicken is more valuable than an human fetus?
I mean a fetus could eventually design a bridge, find a cure for cancer, invent a new technology, lead an army, worship God.
What in heavan’s name are you thinking and who has mentored you?
Hebrews 2:5-8 “It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
and put everything under his feet.”
I don’t understand how it’s ok to kill babies but it’s not ok to eat the meat of cattle who were bred to BE food. But I suppose if you equate the life of a cow or a pig with the life of a human, then that is what you get. Still…if you equate human life with animal life, then why ISN’T it ok to kill animals, since we kill unborn babies and that’s fine? Eh. Never mind. It’s not a discussion for this posting, I suppose.
As for this display, the bloody abortion doc makes it look like a three-ring circus. Sorry, but it does. We have the truth on our side and I don’t feel that it is helpful to resort to tactics like that, though I support their right to protest and put up their signs in a public location.
Rae:
I just don’t see how doing this stuff is any way effective.
Don’t think I’m going soft, I just think there are better and more effective ways.
For example, eliminating the 501c3 tax muzzling of non-profits.
@HisMan: Oh I didn’t think you were going soft at all.
And I agree- there are maaaaaany better and more effective ways than chucking bloody babydolls at people.
I was just saying it’s nice we agree on this one factor. :)
Since many of the anti-choice extremists on this site agree this type of protest is “ineffective” and only alienates people, perhaps Jill should explain why she is so enthusiastic about these protests and rushes to publicize and encourage them.
Heather-
I was the anon. poster who stated I was pro-life. I was not the same anonymous poster who made the later comments about Chris Enart or whatever orCatholic Priests. Sorry.
I like Janet’s idea of a baby shower instead of an angry protest. Or how about a fancy fundraiser for a pro-life organization? I seriously think that many of the people who attended that fancy dinner where not necessarily huge supporters of PP. I’m guessing their “socialites” who want to be seen at the “right” parties and mingle with the “right” people. The Brinkerhoffs are obviously successful and wealthy and what social climber wouldn’t want to attend a party at their 5 million dollar home, and network with other wealthy people?
Yes Rae:
Agreeing on this is good.
I’m an old dog but I am open to learning from you young whipper snappers.
I went to my great nephew’s graduation party last night and we taled about abortion amongst family members.
Most are Catholic and one Muslim.
I reminded them how the Catholic Church and the Muslim faith are totally against abortion. It’s amazing how quiet people get when you remind them of that.
It’s good to talk about this stuff and someone has to take a stand.
Look:
Pedophilia and abortion are both wrong.
Don’t try to justify abortion based on the revolting nature of pedophilia. It just doesn’t make sense.
I don’t think there’s one pro-lifer on this site that support what Catholic priests did to young children or how the Church handled the situation.
However, their sins never justifies abotion.
“…perhaps Jill should explain why she is so enthusiastic about these protests and rushes to publicize and encourage them.”
I’m not going to speak for Jill but I’ll have a stab at it.
It boils down to her experience. Beyond the verneer of “choice” rhetoric, she has seen with her own eyes and held in her own arms the end result of choice. Cruel, heartless.
She responds in kind. Graphically.
The abortionist should have had more props. Like a lady manniquen on a gurnee with her knees in the air and a shop vac with a clear hose sucking baby parts through.
bloodied baby hands, feet and eye-balls would be a good effect, depending on the size of the hose on the shop-vac that is.
Thank you Carder and Truthseeker (sic) for making clear what kind of people get their jollies from these obnoxious protests.
Thank you Anonymous for giving me the opportunity to show you what it is like to be put on a gurnee and have an abortionist suck your baby from your womb.
I wouldn’t call it so much getting jollies as contributing my creativity and choreographic skills to give women a chance to see what will happen….BEFORE they actually submit to an abortion. I think we all agree Education is good. Face the Truth!!
the best thing to work for would be to stop federal funding of PP
In Canada, once funding for proabort women’s groups was discontinued that was the end. They do not enjoy grass roots support because they don’t represent the views of the average Canadian woman. Thus once federal monies dried up that was pretty much it.
Kill the government funding of PP and let’s put them on equal footing with other groups and see how well they fare.
What some one said about some pro-choice people wanting to make adoption illegal is just plain ludicrous. I have never heard of any pro-choice person advocating this. Where do you anti-choicers come up with such ideas ?
Truthseeker has bolstered my theory that the use of these methods is a form of sexual perversion very similar to those who expose themselves to children. They gain sexual satisfation by shocking and offending others, and it gives them a sense of power over others, similar to those who rape.
Truthseeker, get some treatment.
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Truthseeker may be very familiar with a member of the Bob Enyart, Will Duffy, and Ken Scott”family” (the heroes of this story) named Ronald Brock, who takes his orders from Bob and Will.
Brock’s vesion of “residential picketing” is to arrive in neighborhoods in the dark in his “truth truck” and set up his video camera when children are getting up and dressing for school.
Could it be that the reason for residential picketing is access to children, by people who have a unique interest in them?
After all, if they were to picket at Planned Parenthood, or a public place like the State Capitol, they wouldn’t be able to engage in contact with or surveillance of children.
Perhaps that is why some on this post are so enamored with residential picketing.
What do you think, Jill?
Anonomous,
You have an “active” imagination. I have seen far too often that people like PP supporters who are in the business of protecting child predators so they can offend again and again like to attack the other side as being the ones responsible for such percersions. How bout you and PP? I hear that more 13 year old girls get pregnant from adults than other children. How many of them have you PP supporters brought to justice? Actions speak louder than words.
Corrections included
Anonymous,
You have an “active” imagination. I have seen far too often that people like PP supporters who are in the business of protecting child predators so they can offend again and again like to attack the other side as being the ones responsible for such perversions. How bout you and PP? I hear that more 13 year old girls get pregnant from adults than other children. How many of them have you PP supporters brought to justice? when the 13 year old girls came to your “business” for “health care”? Actions speak louder than words. You make me sick! *vomit*
Posted by: truthseeker at May 31, 2008 7:24 PM
Anonymous?
Let’s try an honest discussion of the procedure. If it gives you sexual arousement you are sicker than most, cause alls it does for me is make sick to think women are actually submitting to it.
Did I get part of the abortion procedure wrong? Maybe you help me by correcting my version of an abortion. Doesn’t the woman sign papers agreeing to terminating her pregnancy? Doesn’t she lie down on a gurnee and raise up her knees. Doesn’t the abortionist stick tools in her privates to open them wide and then stick a vaccuum in to such out the baby in bloody pieces?
Anonymous,
How long do you think you can hide by slandering the other side? Let’s talk shop here about abortion and what is? Isn’t education what it’s all about?
Anonymous, where are you? Having trouble answering my questions without putting your foot in your mouth? It’s people like you that give Anonymous a bad name.
Truthseeker may be very familiar with a member of the Bob Enyart, Will Duffy, and Ken Scott”family” (the heroes of this story) named Ronald Brock, who takes his orders from Bob and Will.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 31, 2008 7:02 PM
Actually Anonymous I have not had the pleasure to meet them or to thank them in person for their efforts. But I hope the guy playing the abortionist reads my posts so I can cnntribute to the choreoghraphy.
I’m so glad there are other pro-lifer’s who agree that there are better ways of protesting than this one. ESPECIALLY you, HisMan. You made my day!!
:)
I think we should change the title of this thread to: “How NOT to hold a pro-life protest”
hehehe.
Elizabeth,
What did you think of my idea of adding a mannequin on a gurnee with an abortionist sucking bloody baby parts through a shop-vac? Would that have been better then the abortionist waving bloody dolls?
“What did you think of my idea of adding a mannequin on a gurnee with an abortionist sucking bloody baby parts through a shop-vac? Would that have been better then the abortionist waving bloody dolls?”
No- that would have been even more ridiculous than the waving of bloody dolls.
Seriously dude- there are *way* better tactics to be using than idiotic “shock” tactics used here- this kinda crap alienates people, TS.
I linked this to a Pro-Life group on facebook and I’ve only gotten NEGATIVE replies to it from die-hard pro-lifers.
This kind of stuff makes PLers look crazy and quite frankly I’m shocked you don’t see that.
“I don’t understand how it’s ok to kill babies but it’s not ok to eat the meat of cattle who were bred to BE food.”
This is why I’m a pro-life vegetarian. You don’t need meat to survive, if you did…every vegetarian would be dead. You choose to contribute to the death of innocent beings for no other reason than because you feel like it. Same as a woman aborting a fetus because she feels like it. Cows, pigs and chicken are just as sentient as human fetuses and can feel just as much pain, if not more.
I personally liked Chris’s idea a lot.
Sorry, TS, being gross and tacky makes one look just what they are: gross and tacky. It may be the truth, but nobody pays attention to the truth when we make things look like a circus. I’d think the same thing if I saw a woman with fake blood all over her carrying a coat-hanger. While that may also be the truth, it just looks like a spectacle one would see on Halloween. As a pro-lifer, I think we have better ways to make our point in a more effective way.
@Elizabeth: That kind of crap looks like the stuff they show at “Hell Houses” at Halloween.
(Get on AIM!!!!)
Isn’t there an educational value? Aren’t there many women who never understood the procedure “fully”, as I described it, prior to submitting to an abortion? Do abortionists describe the procedure prior to commiting the abortion or do they hide it from the women?
Would it be possible that a woman walking into an abortion clinic would change her mind if she saw something like that played out in front of her?
TS,
COME ON! Get real here…there’s a difference between showing the graphic pictures and acting out a scene from a bloody horror movie on the STREET!
It was tactless, and I doubt did much to deter anyone from having an abortion. All it did was tell everybody to stay away from the crazies waving the bloody babies. I sure as hell would, that would freak me out if I saw that in person.
And I am not talking about doing it gross and tacky. I’m talking rehearsed and realistic.
And where in that scenario exactly are we helping the women making the decision to have an abortion? Where are we extending our hand in love to help them choose life? All we’re doing is scaring the crap out of them.
I agree the guy in scrubs waving the doll was tacky. I am talking about a serious rehearsed
performance of what an abortion is. I am thinking of choreographing one for a you-tube video. Here is a link to the music. You can disregard verse 5 cause I am going to do a performance of an early second trimester abortion and not a PBA.
http://tinyurl.com/4ndrcl
or do a you tube search on managainstabortion
@Truthseeker: When you use terms like “Shop-vac”, it sure as hell looks like you want to make it gross and tacky.
And no- there is no educational value in doing what you’re talking about- it’s merely a shock tactic meant to horrify and disgust people, which is a piss-poor method of getting people to see your point.
Besides, TS, there are plenty of sites on the internet that describe how abortions are performed in ways that aren’t unnecessarily gross and show it in a clear manner. If you really want to know what it looks like, abortion procedure descriptions are only a click away on Google.
And where in that scenario exactly are we helping the women making the decision to have an abortion?
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 31, 2008 10:53 PM
By letting them see “ahead of time” what exactly they are thinking about submitting themselves to.
Well, then I guess you shouldn’t have a problem with the women walking around with bloody crotches carrying coat-hangers..because after all, they’re just showing the reality of what would happen if abortion was illegal.
Well, then I guess you shouldn’t have a problem with the women walking around with bloody crotches carrying coat-hangers..because after all, they’re just showing the reality of what would happen if abortion was illegal.
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 31, 2008 11:06 PM
No Elizabeth, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but I would recommend psychiatric counseling for suicidal tendencies to anybody who would actually consider sticking a coat hangar inside themselves.
Come on, I can’t believe you actually view that spectacle or anything like it as “education.”
Even HisMan said there were better ways to get our point across. There are
I meant to put a period after “are” but apparently I hit Post before I did that.
“Jess,
Do you really think that a chicken is more valuable than an human fetus?
I mean a fetus could eventually design a bridge, find a cure for cancer, invent a new technology, lead an army, worship God.
What in heavan’s name are you thinking and who has mentored you?”
Ok HisMan, so if the person isn’t a genius then they don’t deserve to live? Terri Schivo wasn’t doing anything impressive with her life, so was it fine to pull the plug? And ant’s and some spieces of apes wage war. And then you go with the God worship… Do atheist deserve to live to? No, don’t answer that, I don’t think I’d like the answer.
You obviously never heard of the pig that alerted motorists to help his owner while she was having a heart attack on the floor of her home and couldn’t get to a phone? Dogs that rescue avalanche victims? Dogs that smell deadly gasses and alert their families to get put of the house?
How about when I feel down in the dumps and my little hamster sits on my shoulder and kisses my cheek? That’s pretty special to me.
Elizabeth, I am not talking about anything that posted prior to HisMan’s feedback, so I don’t what his opinion would be. I am talking about realistic portraits of an abortion, NOT about waving a bloody baby.
“Jess,
Do you really think that a chicken is more valuable than an human fetus?
I mean a fetus could eventually design a bridge, find a cure for cancer, invent a new technology, lead an army, worship God.
What in heavan’s name are you thinking and who has mentored you?”
Ok HisMan, so if the person isn’t a genius then they don’t deserve to live? Terri Schivo wasn’t doing anything impressive with her life, so was it fine to pull the plug? And ant’s and some species of apes wage war. And then you go with the God worship… Do atheist deserve to live to? No, don’t answer that, I don’t think I’d like the answer.
You obviously never heard of the pig that alerted motorists to help his owner while she was having a heart attack on the floor of her home and couldn’t get to a phone? Dogs that rescue avalanche victims? Dogs that smell deadly gasses and alert their families to get put of the house?
How about when I feel down in the dumps and my little hamster sits on my shoulder and kisses my cheek? That’s pretty special to me.
TS, like Rae said, there are plenty of sites that explain the abortion procedure..all one has to do is Google it, as I’m sure most women would do if they’re considering an abortion. I don’t think it’s necessary for our cause to be out there performing “mock” abortions so everybody can see.
Jess,
Dolphins have been known to save surfers from shark attacks too.
btw – do you think it is o.k. to eat chicken eggs?
Elizabeth, I didn’t say it is necessary. And can you answer my questions from posts at 10:40 and at 10:42?
I wish I could show you guys what happens to those innocent animals that are tortured so you can eat something “tasty”, even though (with the exception of Bethany) I’m sure you never even tried any vegetarian meals. I’d post links but you just ignore them. Do you really think it’s right to ignore this?
Jess, I picked a pound or so of asparagus today, steamed it and ate it.
Then I weeded the asparagus bed – it needed it bad. In doing so, I found another pound and a half of new shoots, so I ate them too.
Sorry AGAIN for the double post : (
And yes, to whoever asked me I can’t find your post right now, I eat eggs. For my cousins pet chickens. He has pet chickens, and raises them as part of his family. They’re his best friends. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting them and they are just a joy to spend time with : ) They do still lay eggs, so whenever they lay a few I’ll eat them. And they’re delicious.
Also, I think HisMan needs some tiny animal love.
http://www.petpress.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2007/07/cute-hamster.jpg
They just want to love you!!!!
Heather: don’t pimp your PETA on me
:: laughing ::
That’d make a nice shirt slogan.
Doug,
Is it possible trees feel pain when we cut them down but we just can’t hear them scream?
This little girl says,
“I pity the fool who doesn’t follow Doug’s example and eat asparagus!”
http://webpages.csus.edu/~ao262/sniper.jpg
truthseeker, no.
I am very strongly pro-life but I have mixed emotions on this one. If it was a rented dining hall or something I’d say go for it. But this was their home….something about protesting outside of a person’s house just doesn’t sit well with me. But, then again, it is public property. I am all in favor of the message and the signs held at an adult function like this, but the dr. with the baby? Maybe a bit over the top.
Just for a side note- I don’t know how to feel about the truth truck and such going to places like shopping malls. There are children there with their families. I have a seven year old daughter and it would horrify her to see something like that. I do think adults and teenagers should be faced with the truth, but I don’t think little children should have to see those things. Maybe a warning in the local newspaper or something that the truth truck will be at “x” spot today so be advised if you have small children- I’d love that. They can still get the message out and moms like me can keep their little children away that day.
thanks for this wonderful site Jill and the rest of you. I don’t post much but I read here almost every day. God bless you all!
Jess,
Check out this scripture passage.
But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom.
The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him: a spirit of wisdom and of understanding, A spirit of counsel and of strength, a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, and his delight shall be the fear of the LORD. Not by appearance shall he judge, nor by hearsay shall he decide, But he shall judge the poor with justice, and decide aright for the land’s afflicted. He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Justice shall be the band around his waist, and faithfulness a belt upon his hips. Then the wolf shall be a guest of the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; The calf and the young lion shall browse together, with a little child to guide them. The cow and the bear shall be neighbors, together their young shall rest; the lion shall eat hay like the ox. The baby shall play by the cobra’s den, and the child lay his hand on the adder’s lair. There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea. On that day, The root of Jesse, set up as a signal for the nations, The Gentiles shall seek out, for his dwelling shall be glorious.
Isaiah 11: 1-10
Elizabeth:
As passionate as we are about being pro-life and would do anything we could that was legal to prevernt a baby from being killed in it’s mother’s womb, I think we have to recognize that we live in the real world and we are constrained by things we cannot control. While I cannot singlehandedley make abortions illegal or make them go away or make women stop choosing abortion, I can certianly be a voice out there speaking the truth. Most won’t listen but even Jesus died on the cross knowing that the majority would reject Him.
In my opinion, these spectacles don’t help. I think simply having no signs or displays, but just perhaps kneeling in silent prayer would have been much more effective. I also believe that one on one relationships with people makes big impacts. All of us can together influence the world one person at a time.
Changing people’s hearts and minds about abortion takes time. We must speak the truth in love and live godly lives. That’s what’s most difficult about the Walk. I struggle with my Christianity all the time. It’s not easy being a Christian and I must always fall back on Christ when I fail like saying things I regret or getting unjustifiably angry. However, going through these times makes us a little more compassionate, a little more understanding, a little more forgiving.
God is in control and we must remember that even He allows abortions, as wrong as they are. However, as belivers, we know that an innocent child’s death in the womb is not the end of the story.
Perhaps when we get to heaven the little ones that were aborted will be thanking those of us that cared enough to stand up and say something, to stand against the storm, who didn’t go along to get along.
This is a marathon, not a sprint.
My prayer is that God not lift His hand of protection from this nation even though we are still killing babies every day. Perhaps it is becasue of us that he chosen mercy over wrath unitl now. Someday we’ll know.
That’s nice truthseeker.
I already did TS..
10:42 p.m…In my own personal opinion, I don’t really think it would, and I just think there’s better ways to change someone’s mind. As I said, the whole “mock” abortion scenario I don’t really see as beneficial, except maybe as a fear-mongering technique..and that’s not how I roll.
10:40 p.m….I couldn’t really tell you what abortionists do or don’t do. I have never talked to an abortionist or had one myself, so I can’t say for certain. But in this day and age where the information is pretty much at your fingertips, I think it would be necessary to find out all the information one can about any surgical procedure before going to have it done. But I come from a family of nurses so whenever we have anything medically done, we always call each other beforehand. I would imagine the responsible thing to do before having an abortion done would be to research it and know as much about it before you decide to do it.
HisMan, 11:40 p.m.
A beautiful post.
I also believe that one on one relationships with people makes big impacts. All of us can together influence the world one person at a time.
This is so true..and I think this is the way to have the biggest impact. :)
I think so too Jess. For what it is worth, that is one of my favorite passages and it has actually made me reconsider wether or not I should cut back on meat eating; cause the way I read it when Jesus comes again, not even the animals will kill one another. God bless you. ts
truthseeker, with vegan food like this what’s there to consider?
http://blog.fatfreevegan.com/2008/02/ridiculously-easy-lunchbox-enchilada.html
P.S. Oreo’s are vegan.
I would imagine the responsible thing to do before having an abortion done would be to research it and know as much about it before you decide to do it.
secretly PC???
I’m considering having an acute bunion removed, I’m going to research the fruit-loops out of the procedure. Why should an abortion be different?
If I’m going to cross a street I’m going to look both ways.
And God said unto them, “Yea though you walk through the valley of the fast moving motor vehicles, you shall not look both ways.” And there was much rejoicing.
I would imagine the responsible thing to do before having an abortion done would be to research it and know as much about it before you decide to do it.
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 31, 2008 11:43 PM
That is my point exactly Elizabeth. Believe it or not, a lot of young women who are “scared” of their pregnancy just go get an abortion without ever realizing their is a baby with eyes, ears,nose, heartbeat etc inside of them. It happens more often then you care to admit. And it is my understanding that neither PP or the abortions provide any information about fetal developement to “patients” prior to commiting abortions on them. If that is the truth, then seeing bloody baby parts bouncing around inside a vacuum hose with a sign that says “14 months” could actually be educational for some mother’s and save them from making an uniformed decision that they end up regretting for the rest of their lives.
BTW – I am all for the one-on-ones too. I have them with people about abortion almost daily.
Oh stuff it, Anon..I was just being objective there..TS asked me if having ALL the information about the actual abortion procedure might change one’s mind, and I said knowing all the information about it is what is important in making the decision.
I think the signs, and the nice people outside with the pamphlets do enough to help the women that performing “mock” abortions is nothing but a propaganda move to scare people. I mean, you can do what you want, but I certainly won’t be out there participating in that spectacle.
Elizabeth,
Most of the time PP doesn’t let sidewalk counselor’s near enough to even get that information to the mothers. And if PP actually cared about the women, they WOULD be providing that information. They don’t because they care more about the money from the abortion and they are afraid too many women would change their minds and choose NOT to go ahead with the abortion. It is ad and I wish I could find a way to get every woman that information.
Did you listen to music at the you-tube link? What did you think of the song?
I’m considering having an acute bunion removed, I’m going to research the fruit-loops out of the procedure. Why should an abortion be different?
If I’m going to cross a street I’m going to look both ways.
Posted by: Jess at May 31, 2008 11:57 PM
Jess, you wouldn’t even eat a chicken egg, so I assume you would never choose abortion for yourself. But everybody should agree that any woman going in for an abortion should be aware of the gestational developement of the life in her womb. PP as the “health care providor”, doesn’t provide this basic information to the mothers because it would mean admitting that the baby is worth considering? They are slime.
TS,
I know that PP doesn’t care about women. But honestly, I just think there are better ways. That is just what I think. Ways that don’t involve dramatics and hysteria and make us, the GOOD GUYS, look bad. Why not set up some items that a baby needs like a playpen or a stroller and put a big sign on it that says “We are here to help!” I think THAT would be much more appealing to a woman going in to get an abortion. She could see the baby items and be reminded of what she is getting rid of which is a baby, and then see the helpful pro-lifers ready and willing to help her. THAT could be just as effective, and wouldn’t make us look nuts.
Gestational developement of babies should be taught as part of any comprehensive sex-education program. And it needs to be discussed with any woman considering an abortion.
For that nut holding the doll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU_JyGBDeIc
Elizabeth,
Not to be rude, but calling yourselves the “good guys” doesn’t help out your protest efforts either. Painting everyone else as the “bad guys” makes you sound like children playing a game of cowboys and indians. It’s not that simple. This is not a black and white issue. People are not just good or bad guys, and that sort of simplification is what alienates others and makes them think pro-lifers really don’t see people as people.
I agree that is a better way Elizabeth. It just tears me up that PP doesn’t provide women that information as part of pre-abortion counseling and so many women live in regret. I feel desperate sometimes in seeking ways to stop that from occuring. Maybe a picture of a 14 week old fetus that hasn’t been torn to pieces yet would be better huh?
Oh well, right now I am more into putting out the video anyway. I hadn’t even thought about performing mock abortions in front of an abortion mill prior to today. I just can’t stand to see those lying basturds operate with impunity. Life is a journey and I will follow the Holy Spirit.
Edyt,
nice guys – people who care for other and willingly sacrifice themselves for the welfare of others. et al. don’t kill baby’s in the womb to make their own lives easie. Simple as that.
TS,
Like I said, you can believe whatever you want, but it will hurt your cause. Those people you call the “bad guys” are just going to laugh at the ridiculousness of that statement and not change their minds anyway. Of course, if it really is just spectacle and blaming people, continue on.
Edyt,
I think you are mistaken. I think over 90% of the PC people out there would NEVER choose abortion for themselves.
I gave you my definition of “nice guy”. Somebody who sacrifices for the benefit of others
What is you definition? I want to understand how nice guys could kill babies in their mother’s womb.
She could see the baby items and be reminded of what she is getting rid of which is a baby, and then see the helpful pro-lifers ready and willing to help her. THAT could be just as effective, and wouldn’t make us look nuts.
Posted by: Elizabeth at June 1, 2008 12:31 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…And Elizabeth, I’d ask you to read the posts from Jaqueline, a long-time poster on this board who works in the social service field.
Over and over she has complained about how she can’t place mixed-race children – especially female ones – while every nice white male baby flies out their door.
You want horror?
Take a good long look at your little girl, and imagine what her life would be in the “pay-to-play” foster care system if your parents hadn’t been willing to support you both.
Many responsible women choose abortion rather than pitch a less-than-“desireable” child into that nightmare system…
Edyt,
In all honesty, I think you know I don’t see things quite so black and white. I think that is evident by my comments on this thread today and my disapproval of the tactics used by these pro-lifers. And my past comments about the discriminatory attitudes of some pro-lifers. My intention with that comment was not to discriminate or alienate. It was in fact to appeal to TS and explain how while we believe and want to portray ourselves as the good guys when it comes to abortion, these actions make us look bad. I hope that makes sense. If not, I apologize, because I’m pretty tired right now.
If there is any more comments for me, I shall respond when I get up in the morning….my brain has already gone to sleep for the night. :)
Many responsible women choose abortion rather than pitch a less-than-“desireable” child into that nightmare system…
Posted by: Laura at June 1, 2008 1:07 AM
Laura, that is so sad. They feel so helpless that they actually decide to kill their baby’s before they are even born, “in order to protect them from society”. These mother’s need emotional counseling to help them understand that even “difficult” life is precious. We all go through difficult times in life and it is not acting irresponsibly to presume future difficultys as being a valid reason for killing her baby. Women often kill their newborns after birth for that same type of reasoning. Do you consider them to be responsible also?
I
…And Elizabeth, I’d ask you to read the posts from Jaqueline, a long-time poster on this board who works in the social service field.
Over and over she has complained about how she can’t place mixed-race children – especially female ones – while every nice white male baby flies out their door.
Posted by: Laura at June 1, 2008 1:07 AM
We need more role models like “first lady” Linda McCain who adopted a baby from Africa long before it was Hollywood vogue. And less role models like Michelle Obama who holds fund-raisers for partial-birth-abortions. Which of these two women is really an example of “HOPE” for the future.
Hey Not Crazy, I am crazy for my idea of the mannequin on a gurnee with her knees in the air and a shop-vac with bloody baby parts getting sucked through a clear vaccum hose?
Of all the years of protesting I
It would be insane not to be somewhat crazy over PP’s lies and mutilation of mother’s and their babies.
Sorry, Posted by: truthseeker at June 1, 2008 1:26 AM should have read:
*****
Many responsible women choose abortion rather than pitch a less-than-“desireable” child into that nightmare system…
Posted by: Laura at June 1, 2008 1:07 AM
Laura, that is so sad. They feel so helpless that they actually decide to kill their baby’s before they are even born, “in order to protect them from society”. These mother’s need emotional counseling to help them understand that even “difficult” life is precious. We all go through difficult times in life and it IS acting irresponsibly to presume future difficultys as being a valid reason for killing her baby. Women often kill their newborns after birth for that same type of reasoning. Do you consider them to be responsible also?
Carla,
I saw this video made by a woman who had abortions and found forgiveness through Jesus Christ and I thought of you.
http://tinyurl.com/46xxfb
Peace to you Carla and enjoy the song.
If there is any more comments for me, I shall respond when I get up in the morning….my brain has already gone to sleep for the night. :)
Posted by: Elizabeth at June 1, 2008 1:08 AM
thx for your posting tonight Elizabeth. Now I must get some sleep also zzzzzz hmmmm zzzzz hmmm
Good Morning TS!
I just watched the video and I too thought the crying would stop crying someday…
Anyway I liked the part that said I am all alone and so afraid. That was me.
I do believe that every woman thinks about having an abortion for very different reasons. For those that are afraid and alone and do not know the developmental facts of a growing baby that information, compassion and concern can open her eyes. 17 years ago I was shown shown a cartoon of a clump of red cells. I would love to know what PP tells them now and I think I should start doing my own investigating!! :)
I think you really do need to reach people right where they are. A woman who is having her 6th abortion might not be moved. Someone not wanting an abortion but unsure of what to do might really just need reassurance and the facts.
Sorry
I too thought the crying would stop someday…
One shown would suffice.
too early.
Hisman,
I’m just so danged proud of you! You have grown so much since the first time you posted here. It’s funny, because while the main goal of this site is to change the hearts and minds of pro choicers, I have also watched many pro lifers hearts change. I too have grown here.
You are a beautiful example of Christianity. No longer a caricature of a Christian, you now truly exemplify everything that Jesus stands for. I’m sure many pro choicers have watched this transformation, and been touched. Once we realize that abortion is the enemy, and not pro choicers, the whole world opens up to us.
I’m proud to stand next to you in the fight.
Not Crazy @ 1:29 AM
Thanks for stopping by and providing some of the rationale behind the effort. Limited time and resources certainly can limit your impact, so going after your objectives makes a lot of sense.
In 2006, PPRI raised over $600,000 on one night with a dinner at a local millionaire’s house. (Believe it or not, IIRC, a diamond/sapphire cross went for $17,000 in an auction – I consider such acts blasphemous!) The black-tie “event” was covered in the local elite monthly.
Anyhow, my prayer has been that God would turn the hearts of the host & his wife 180 degrees. Such a person at a place of influence would be terribly destructive to PP because it has two beneficial impacts – either their own peers will turn on them, or they will listen to them.
The question is: what objective are you trying to achieve – is it more beneficial in the long run or not?
@Not Crazy:
“These people know what they are doing and who they are giving money to. We weren
Not Crazy,
At least you admit you were trying to harrass people. But what about all the people living there who have nothing to do with that party? How many of them did you alienate when you were running around with your bloody baby dolls? THAT’S what I mean by making us look crazy. I wouldn’t participate in a protest where somebody was dressed up in a costume running around with bloody baby dolls..mostly cause I bring my 2-year old with me to protests and she would probably cry her sweet little eyes out if she saw that. I have plenty of ideas for getting the message out there in a more productive, less hysterical way, and I even gave an example of one for truthseeker last night.
IMO, Elizabeth NONE of these tactics will work anymore.
I sincerely believe, we’ve had our chance to turn hearts and it hasn’t worked for the most part. Very few prolife politicians are able to get themselves elected and then once in, are essentially neutered by the system which is very corrupt.
Meanwhile the culture of death spreads into more and more areas of our lives, into our schools, entrenched in our universities and work unions, and throughout all areas of medicine and research.
My belief is that it will take direct intervention from God to remove abortion from our culture. And it won’t be pretty.
@Not Crazy: Do you want better ways to get your point across without looking like a flaming nutter?
Have posters of photos of real, living, embryos and fetuses in utero at different stages of development.
Politely engage people into conversation and show them that fetuses and embryos are not “blobs of cells” and that they are in fact living humans.
Ask them why they think killing humans in utero is okay but killing them out of the womb is *not* okay. With this I’m certain they will bring up the bodily autonomy argument- then you could ask if a fetus is a person, why do they not have bodily autonomy as well?
Be rational. Use rational, well-reasoned arguments. I guarantee this will win over more people than waving around bloody baby dolls dressed as a bloodied up “doctor”.
Rae:
With all due respect there isn’t really time in a situation like that which this post describes to engage people in discussion.
The means has to fit the situation.
think over 90% of the PC people out there would NEVER choose abortion for themselves.
Truthseeker, that’s not right.
Even among Christian fundamentalist women who describe themselves as “born again,” the rate of having abortions is around 15 – 20%
This is “pro-life” people for whom the 90% figure is not even true, and this is not a case of “would never,” this is women actually having abortions, IMO because regardless of what they might have said before, in their own situation they see that ending the pregnancy is the best thing to do.
As far as Pro-Choice people, I think that within the general population it’s now roughly 1 in 3 women that has an abortion, so for the PC group it’d have to be higher, up in the 30’s or low 40’s (percentages) to make up for the PL crowd, where the rate is below that of US women in general.
Not Crazy,
I looked at your picture again, and I respectfully beg to differ with your self-assessment. You sure look crazy to me.
Besides looking crazy, there is a real danger associated with Jill’s encouragment of harrassing people in their homes.
A few months ago Will Duffy, Jill’s hero and a “contributor” to this site, took his “attack dog” Ken Scott to the home of a security guard to intimidate him out of working for PP. The man, a Romanian immigrant, was understandably terrified of Ken Scott, and gave up the job.
A few weeks ago, Will Duffy went to the home of another security guard and went to the door to intimidate him and his family. That security guard was not a Romanian immigrant. He was a retired Denver cop, and Will was met with the business end of a large handgun and ordered off the premises.
Colorado has a “make my day” law, and anyone entering a home in a threatening manner can be killed without legal or civil liability on the part of the homeowner.
Since Will Duffy, Ken Scott and Bob Enyart insist on threatening people in their homes, it is very likely that there will be blood.
Since Jill Stanek publicizes and encourages this type of conduct, that blood will be on her hands.
MK, to Hisman: You have grown so much since the first time you posted here. It’s funny, because while the main goal of this site is to change the hearts and minds of pro choicers, I have also watched many pro lifers hearts change.
I agree, and it’s interesting to see how other people think.
“Most of the time PP doesn’t let sidewalk counselor’s near enough to even get that information to the mothers.”
Thats not true. There’s about a 12 foot yellow line up to the door they have to keep away from, but they can be right on the sidewalk – so unless they start helicoptering patients in, they do get PLENTY near – near enough to be spit on and have bloody doll heads shoved in their faces.
I honestly was pretty ambivalent about the abortion debate until I was in college. I already knew what I would do if I got pregnant, so I never felt any extraordinary need to go out and protest to protect a right I had no intention of using. Nor did I feel it was any of my business what other people chose to do. But I DID know I wanted to work with teenagers when I looked for placement for my internship, and the teen mom program sounded awesome. I didn’t know until I received the acceptance letter (on PP letterhead) that the program was funded through PP and that I’d be training there for 6 weeks before I started my classes at the school for pregnant teens. I didn’t know a whole lot about PP then, but the first day I had to go in for my classes, seeing the nutcases screaming names at people and holding bloody baby heads…handing out pamphlets with drawings of hell and satan… lets just say I was no longer ambivalent. Over the course of the six weeks, as many of you have already read, I was told I should get raped, called a whore, and had my tires slashed. What side do you think that pushed me towards, “Not Crazy”?
Thanks in large part to that being my ONLY exposure to the PL agenda at that point, I became a very headstrong supporter of PP. Over time, especially because of the way the IDX ban was handled, I came to feel differently. But you (and those who stage similar circus performances) should really keep in mind that I can’t be the only one out there who has a lot of inner conflict about the subject and could very easily be swayed in the other direction because of your antics and horrible strategy at getting though to people. Do you see the man in the car is LAUGHING at you? Yeahh… boy, you sure got through to him! And yeah, the moron who slashed my tires? TOTALLY changed my mind about abortion!! GOOD JOB!!
PS – Janet, I really like your idea. I can’t say for sure whether or not it would have changed my mind, but I certainly would have looked at y’all VERY differently from day 1. AND it would have helped people as a result, regardless of whether or not it changed anyone’s mind.
“A few weeks ago, Will Duffy went to the home of another security guard and went to the door to intimidate him and his family. That security guard was not a Romanian immigrant. He was a retired Denver cop, and Will was met with the business end of a large handgun and ordered off the premises.
Colorado has a “make my day” law, and anyone entering a home in a threatening manner can be killed without legal or civil liability on the part of the homeowner.
Ah, the American way and hand guns….
I believe the correct stat is that about 43% of women of childbearing age have had an abortion. An unbearably high number and very sad.
Not Crazy,
You’re crazy.
Amanda:10:02: Thank you. Please always remember that 99.9% of pro-lifers who “witness” at clinics (pass out literature, offer help to pregnant women) are there out of love for those women, not out of spite or hatred.
Janet:
I think your reaching with the 99.9%
Not crazy said: No donor left that night and thought they had a nice evening.
Although I don’t care much for your “in your face” methods, I must say, it made me smile just a bit to read the last line you wrote.
My prayers go out to all those attendees and the host and hostess that they will change their hardened hearts. Oh, Dr. John (10:24), that includes you too. God bless you.
I think your reaching with the 99.9%
Posted by: lg at June 1, 2008 11:34 AM
I was referring to “witnesses” at the clinics. If you look at the “protestors”, most are still there out of love for the women, although their methods might involve the unappealing abortion pictures. It depends on the type of protest. Not all protestors use the graphic signs (myself included). My favorite sign is “MOMS FOR LIFE”.
lg: Good to see you again! I was actually thinking about you earlier, wondering where you had gone!
I guess your opinion and mine differ on this matter. I feel as if the “witnesses” are only there to force their views upon others. And as far as “protestors” go, I can really see how people who go into abortion clincs and shoot people or blow them up, yea, their really “there out of love for those women, not out of spite or hatred.”
It’s nice to see you again too Janet!
As far as Pro-Choice people, I think that within the general population it’s now roughly 1 in 3 women that has an abortion, so for the PC group it’d have to be higher, up in the 30’s or low 40’s (percentages) to make up for the PL crowd, where the rate is below that of US women in general.
Posted by: Doug at June 1, 2008 9:36 AM
Doug, Where do you get your stats. I beg to differ. Are you saying one in three women have had an abortion? I would disagree there, but even if it were so, half of those may have since turned to the pro-life side. Even Hillary Clinton and John Kerry and all your PC Democratic leaders always qualify their support for abortion rights by saying they are against it oersonally. Hell, even rabid PC’ers like Obama call it a morally wrenching decision. I think you would find the 90% figure accurate if a poll were ever taken. Nobody likes abortion, and the GREAT majority of those who are PC are only there to protect a woman’s right to abortion, NOT because they would have one themselves. It is a lot closer to 90% then you think and I would like to see your logic/evidence that it is otherwise. I think this is the kind of very important information to get out there so that society as a whole realizes how few people would actually choose abortion. The pro-abort side loves the fact that people like Edyt perpetuating the image that most PC’ers would commit abortion.
Doug, name me ten high profile Democrats who do not qualify their PC support with the fact that they would noit personally commit abortion. I can’t think of any.
Doug,
I would say over 90% of the Democrats I have seen answer tough questions on abortion say they support the PC platform but are personally against abortion. I don;t see how you can try to argue with that 90% figure.
lg:
I’ve only seen one incident when I counselled at an abortion clinic (years ago) and that was when a little old Italian lady with her rosary got really upset when she saw a few young girls walking into the clinic (this clinic did abortions, no other medical procedures).
However, I can say that I have been punched, knocked down, kicked, sworn at, cursed and threaten with death etc many, many times by those going into the clinic. I never EVER yelled, threatened or badgered the women going in.
Believe me, they were in a much different condition leaving the clinic after the abortion. It was so awful, I only stayed twice to see the first “wave” of clients leaving the clinic at noon. I could not cope emotionally with what I saw. Most women and their “accomplices” were much more open to receiving our cards afterwards. Too late to save the baby….
Thats not true. There’s about a 12 foot yellow line up to the door they have to keep away from, but they can be right on the sidewalk – so unless they start helicoptering patients in, they do get PLENTY near – near enough to be spit on and have bloody doll heads shoved in their faces.
Posted by: Amanda at June 1, 2008 9:41 AM
Amanda, the new mill they put up in Aurora was strategically placed where there is no sidewalk and only a driveway and they recently had just such a sidewalk counselor arrested for trespassing cause they were on the PP side of the driveway. And this particular driveway is a public driveway to a shopping mall! YOU are the one that is mistaken on this matter.
Doug, could it be that 80% of the women who have had an abortion would never choose to go through that again?
Lets do the math. 2 in 5 have had an abortion. only one in five of those would ever choose to do it again. That means 2 in 25 (8%) would choose abortion. But a lot more then that percentage of dead-beat men would encorage them to abort again.
btw Amanda,
Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood has pending litigation with PP over their “our half of the public driveway” claim. It’s really quite ludicrous. People are walking back and forth to and from the mall all day on the so-called “PP” side of the driveway and yet they lay claim to having peaceful sidewalk counselors handing out pamphlets getting arrested for walking on same part of driveway.
Not Crazy,
You’re crazy.
Posted by: Doctor John at June 1, 2008 10:24 AM
I guess thas what they emant when they said
“Sometimes the Truth is stranger than fiction”
Dr. John, which is crazier?
A guy waving a bloody doll or a guy pulling a baby out of a mother’s womb in pieces?
Truthseeker-
Are you off your meds today or something? Your spamming of this thread makes it appear so…
Amanda,
I am so sorry that was your first experience with PL people. I would probably feel the same way you did if it were me, but I hope that you can see that we are not all that way. And I certainly don’t condone any of that behavior that was directed at you and I would have taken action to stop anyone who said/did those things to you!
P.S. I’m working on replying to your facebook message you sent me..it’s just been crazy around here lately!
truthseeker @ 1:59 PM – Dr. John, which is crazier? A guy waving a bloody doll or a guy pulling a baby out of a mother’s womb in pieces?
TS – you know, you’ve got a point there.
Yes, Janet, the protestors are there out of “love”. The type of love that leads Ken Scott to photograph women at PP and post their pictures on websites like “Christian Gallery” so they can be embarrassed, beaten or maybe killed.
Let’s examine the “love” of “Child Beater Bob” Enyart, whose photo is posted by Jill above. He is known as Child Beater Bob, since he went to jail for beating a 7 year old with a belt. Now that he is a “pro life leader” maybe he is moving on to beating 8 and 9 year olds.
On his website, Bob has a “abortion vigilantism worksheet” in which he lays out an 11 page list of people who should be considered for murder by anti-choice extremists.
Predictably, the first page lists for murder the abortionist, his or her spouse, and children. It then moves on to clinic workers, security guards, and service people, like an air conditioner repairman, who is marked for murder if he makes a service call at PP.
It then moves on to police and firemen, judges,and politicians.
On the last page it references “bystanders”, persons who have nothing at all to do with abortion, but who should be considered for murder, for the fun of it. There is no one in the world who is safe, except maybe Bob himself.
Obviously, Child Beater Bob is Jill’s hero, and she promotes him and approves of his methods.
Bob Enyart proves the theory that anti-choice extremists are the most hateful people on earth.
Amanda,
I also did not mean to be insensitive to your story. I just chose to repond to the part of it that pertained to your initial post to me. As I have stated before, I know you to be an honest person and NOBODY should be subjected to that kind abuse. There are bad apples in every group.
Bob Enyart proves the theory that anti-choice extremists are the most hateful people on earth.
Anon,
How EXACTLY does one man’s attitude and actions prove ANYTHING about a huge group of people?
TS – just because the ONE most recently built PP has no sidewalk access doesn’t mean I’m “mistaken”. I’m not just pulling that out of the sky… I was THERE at the PP in Brooklyn, close enough for some of them to be screaming obscenities in my face (out of love … of course…right?)
Elizabeth – I know that now – funny thing about coming across this blog, is that I’ve realized there are plenty of people out there who are far more sane and reasonable (you, for example), but a handful out there who are even MORE crazy than the people I encountered (Zeke, Duffy, Scott, Enyart, etc)!
I just wonder about their methods when I think back to how little I knew about all of this at 19/20. I was very open to considering either side of things then. I’m assuming here – but I’d venture to say there are a lot more people like me out there than there are concrete pro life or pro choice activists. The people they go after with yelling, stalking, and bloody dolls are people who have really already made up their minds and are unlikely to change, and at the same time, they’re scaring off and alienating people who might NOT be so certain. 4 years ago, I would have been HAPPY to see this post, because my thought process would have been the same as Laura’s (good, this just makes them look even MORE insane, and PP look good for just ignoring it and carrying on with their dinner!), but now it just makes me sad, because it accomplishes NOTHING. All those donors still donated, there is even photographic evidence of the protesters being LAUGHED at, and both sides are just as angry as ever. What was the point? There wasn’t one. Who was helped by that circus sideshow? NO ONE. Blah.
Anonymous,
After expressing your fantasies to me yesterday that you imagine me getting sexual arousal from describing abortions, I just assume all your posts are slanderous and you have lost all credibility.
Anon,
Also, might you provide a link to the sites you mentioned in your 2:46 p.m. post?
Yeah, Amanda, I don’t know if you read “Not Crazy’s” posts but he said they weren’t trying to change anyone’s mind with that protest. They were basically trying to harrass people.
“Yeah, Amanda, I don’t know if you read “Not Crazy’s” posts but he said they weren’t trying to change anyone’s mind with that protest. They were basically trying to harrass people.”
Which begs the question- what the hell were they hoping to accomplish by harassing people?
“Bob Enyart proves the theory that anti-choice extremists are the most hateful people on earth.”
Could we take out “anti choice” and just leave it at “extremists” in general tend to be very hateful people? I wouldn’t venture to say the Enyart crew is any more hateful that Fred Phelps and crew.
Extremism in ALL forms is usually a sign of mental illness, not a heartfelt devotion to a cause… and I think Bob Enyart does prove that theory. But if extremists represented the majority of ANY movement… they wouldn’t be called extremists.
Hey Anons, could you at least put initials or your cats name or SOMETHING so we can tell one from the other?
Amanda,
I understand sidewalk counselors are able to hand out pamphlets at most abortion mills. I was just speaking from experience also. Since PP is prosecuting peaceful sidewalk counselors for passing out pamphlets it is just an obvious truth. I stand corrected on the way I phrased my initial statement:
“Most of the time PP doesn’t let sidewalk counselor’s near enough to even get that information to the mothers.”
It should have read:
“PP doesn’t want sidewalk counselor’s near enough to even get that information to the mothers” Which is the point I was trying to make. According to Carla, when she went for an abortion at the age of 17 all PP did is show her a cartoon of a blob of cells. That’s just not right, and it’s not right for PP to want to make efforts to keep that information out of the abortion counseling process. Can we agree on that?
what the hell were they hoping to accomplish by harassing people?
Cure their boredom?
I think they staed their purpose Elizabeth.
“No killing with tranquility ”
As stated, they wanted to ruin their fun at this fundraiser for killing babies. And may I note that they did it in a non-violent way.
TS – yes indeedy we can. And the lawsuits are stupid, because 1. they don’t need the money, and 2. going after people’s right to free speech is stupid, because it makes them less credible when they want to stop people who ARE actually being harmful.
IMHO, PL in Colorado ROCKS
As stated, they wanted to ruin their fun at this fundraiser for killing babies.
Well, good for them.
I’m pretty sure people still donated money..maybe even more so to spite all those pro-lifers out there. Good job.
They did nothing to save any babies..all they did was harrass people. I thought it was all about “saving the babies.” I guess I was wrong.
Amanda, You make a lot of good points.
I think the target audience for those carrying the “extreme” signs are the “middle of the road” group that you referred to who does not feel strongly one way or another about abortion. Unfortunately, since it’s hard to know where people stand just by looking at them, the poster-carrying protesters bring them out for all audiences to see.
This may have been the case at the Denver party. It’s just my opinion, but I’m guessing the revolting nature of the posters did have a “positive effect” in that it made a few people think twice about what they were supporting (abortion). At the expense of making a few people angry, is it worth it? Hard to say.
Janet,
My objection is not to the protestors being there or even holding signs.
I draw the line at people dressed up as doctors with blood all over them waving bloody baby dolls in the air.
Elizabeth:
There are many ways to “save babies”. Sometimes it can take the form of court action, other times education etc.
This time is was not so much to “save babies” immediately, but to remind these people, who obviously have some excess money to part with, what their money really does – rips apart little babies and destroys the future of America.
While they sipped martinis and sucked back cocktails.
The Brinkerhoffs should have anticipated this, given the abortion/life climate in America today.
I think the Brinkerhoffs had to have known what would transpire that night given the fact that there is a public access area right behind their yard.
Maybe it was a set up to make the pro-lifers look bad? Just a thought.
What are they saying in the Denver society pages about the party? It would be interesting to find out.
Brinkerhoffs= Any relation to Nancy Brinker of Komen?
Patricia,
“Not Crazy” stated that it was not the intention to change minds.
The only other thing they were trying to do was harrass people, and I don’t approve of harrassment, especially when dressing up like it’s Halloween waving bloody baby dolls makes us look ri.dic.u.lous.
Elizabeth 4:00: I draw the line at people dressed up as doctors with blood all over them waving bloody baby dolls in the air.
I agree, that is really bad taste. Do they need to go that far, really?
Sometimes people do crazy thing in the heat of the moment. Imagine how these protestors felt seeing these people having fun supporting abortion. Incredible.
Patricia said: 4:03: The Brinkerhoffs should have anticipated this, given the abortion/life climate in America today.
Janet said: 4:04: I think the Brinkerhoffs had to have known what would transpire that night given the fact that there is a public access area right behind their yard.
Patricia, will you please stop copying me? (Just kidding!) Great minds think alike. Lol.
Janet: oh gosh, I didn’t even see that!
hey great minds think alike!! Darn it! You just wrote this!
Brother!
Elizabeth:
If I were a proabort (praise be God, I am NOT!) the only place I would hold a fundraiser is in a bunker!
Patricia, You actually beat me by a minute. I was just joshin’.
“As far as Pro-Choice people, I think that within the general population it’s now roughly 1 in 3 women that has an abortion, so for the PC group it’d have to be higher, up in the 30’s or low 40’s (percentages) to make up for the PL crowd, where the rate is below that of US women in general.”
Truthseeker: Doug, Where do you get your stats
I get ’em from being smart, with a really good memory, and this has come up literally hundreds of times since I’ve been discussing abortion.
…..
. I beg to differ.
Well, you’re wrong.
…..
Are you saying one in three women have had an abortion?
Yeah, at least. I figured in the 30’s or low 40’s for pro-choicers, and Patricia said: I believe the correct stat is that about 43% of women of childbearing age have had an abortion.
So, pretty much in the ballpark, eh? That 43% figure is declining, slightly, since less women are having abortions now versus the past decades on a per-capita basis.
I think the projections now are that 1 in 3 women who are entering childbearing years will have an abortion.
Anyway, it’s at least as high as what I said. Where in the world do you get your figures?
……
I would disagree there, but even if it were so, half of those may have since turned to the pro-life side.
Heh – and pigs might be flying. Look, if Patricia is right, and I know she’s not far off if anything, then way, way more than 10% of women have abortions, and that does not include those that would but never ended up in the circumstances that would argue for it.
So, what do we add to the 43%? 10? 20? Doesn’t matter – your 10% isn’t even close to anything, there.
…..
Even Hillary Clinton and John Kerry and all your PC Democratic leaders always qualify their support for abortion rights by saying they are against it oersonally.
Such anecdotes have nothing necessarily to do with the population as a whole.
…..
Hell, even rabid PC’ers like Obama call it a morally wrenching decision.
Well, for some women it is. The bottom line is that vastly more than 10% of women have abortions. Heck, even among Christian fundamentalist women who describe themselves as “born again,” the figure is more than 10%. And that’s not counting those who would have them in certain situations, taking them out of the “would never choose for themselves” group.
If it’s 43% of women, or 40% or 33%, then those who “would have” abortions versus “would never choose is obviously higher than those figures, i.e. no matter what your 10% is crazy, and that’s what caught my eye.
…..
I think you would find the 90% figure accurate if a poll were ever taken. Nobody likes abortion, and the GREAT majority of those who are PC are only there to protect a woman’s right to abortion, NOT because they would have one themselves. It is a lot closer to 90% then you think and I would like to see your logic/evidence that it is otherwise.
Been there and done that many times. I’m guessing it’s 50 to 70% who would have an abortion.
…..
I think this is the kind of very important information to get out there so that society as a whole realizes how few people would actually choose abortion. The pro-abort side loves the fact that people like Edyt perpetuating the image that most PC’ers would commit abortion.
Nah, you’re just way off base here…..
Is it possible trees feel pain when we cut them down but we just can’t hear them scream?
TS,depends on what you mean by “pain.” Some plants hooked up to machines monitoring the electromagnetic spectrum do give some sort of response when live lobsters are dropped into hot water nearby.
I would say over 90% of the Democrats I have seen answer tough questions on abortion say they support the PC platform but are personally against abortion. I don;t see how you can try to argue with that 90% figure.
Good grief, TS, if far more than 10% of women already have abortions, how in the world can anybody rationally say that 90% of women “wouldn’t choose it for themselves”? Hello….
The amount of women who would choose it for themselves is those who have abortions plus those who would in certain circumstances.
I can argue with the 90% figure because I know it’s vastly less than that for US women as a whole, and as noted before – heck, it’s less than that even for Christian fundamentalist women who call themselves “born again.”
This is a group who would almost all be strictly “pro-life,” but when it’s actually the given individuals in the situation, some of them see that ending the pregnancy is for the best.
I just read that 43% figure very recently, but can’t remember where.
Considering the many women who now use abortion as a back-up BC, these stats aren’t really all that surprising TS.
It means that taking a look around you sometime on the street you are probably seeing someone who’s had an abortion….
It means that taking a look around you sometime on the street you are probably seeing someone who’s had an abortion….
I frequently look around at all the women within the same public place I happen to be in and wonder who among them has had an abortion.
Elizabeth:Yeah, me too.
And when I was counselling years ago and on my way to the abortuary, I could be on the subway and i could pick out the women/girls going there.
I just knew – like it was a sixth sense.
Doug,
You are NOT getting it here. You are NOT taking into consideration that a very large percentage of those women who have had an abortion regret it and would never choose to have an abortion again. Get it now? Lets try to show you the numbers a different way so maybe you can understand what I am saying. Start by answering this question.
What is your best gues at the percentage of women who have chosen abortions in the PAST but NOW either regret their choice or simply just had such a bad experience with it that they would never choose abortion again?
Anonymous (PH)
He is known as Child Beater Bob, since he went to jail for beating a 7 year old with a belt. Now that he is a “pro life leader” maybe he is moving on to beating 8 and 9 year olds.
Why do you have to lie? Bob Enyart spanked his step-son with a belt according to Biblical teaching. Proverbs 22:15,23:13-14,29:15 look them up! Just so you know their relationship is solid and loving to this day.
Also,
On his website, Bob has a “abortion vigilantism worksheet” in which he lays out an 11 page list of people who should be considered for murder by anti-choice extremists
Provide a link to back up your accusation.
Jenna
If it’s 43% of women, or 40% or 33%, then those who “would have” abortions versus “would never choose is obviously higher than those figures, i.e. no matter what your 10% is crazy, and that’s what caught my eye.
Posted by: Doug at June 1, 2008 5:50 PM
Doug, You are trying to include every woman who has had an abortion in your group of woman who would currently choose an abortion, and that is why you can’t understand the numbers. Can you understand that many women who have “chosen” abortion in the past have changed their position and would no longer choose abortion for themselves? I submit that most women who have abortions have such a bad experience withb it that, though they want their right to decide, they would no longer choose abortion again. Some after one abortion. Some after two abortions. And even some after three abortions.
Pretty soon MOST women that ever considered it, no longer consider a good “choice” because of the anguish and pain they experienced from previous abortions. Can you understand why your numbers are do skewed now?
TS @ 6:35
What is your best gues at the percentage of women who have chosen abortions in the PAST but NOW either regret their choice or simply just had such a bad experience with it that they would never choose abortion again?
TS, I study this stuff (strategic planning for a PRC) and that figure is so hard to nail down.
Doug is not that far off on his numbers – generally it’s 1 in 3 for general population and Roman Catholics and 1 in 4 for those professing to be “Born Again” evangelicals (which I still consider high!). You start breaking that down across ages etc…and compiling from multiple sources, and it’s hard. You have some states that don’t even submit their numbers. (That would be excellent federal legislation – to get accurate, consistent numbers – we have to go off CDC and AGI.)
There would be a major tempo change in the whole debate if “Christian” women were fully forthcoming about being regretful – they won’t. There are a couple of reasons:
Within the Church we don’t have the deep sense of forgiveness and maturity to set the climate for them to do this. There is still a great deal of shame and guilt that is carried – not only women, but also with men. That we don’t address it strongly, with deep compassion and love only exacerbates things.
Often there is an unknown affair involved – out of wedlock or outright adulterous. No one wants to upset their current relationships.
Anecdotally, yes – there are many out there who if they are forthcoming indicate that it’s not an experience worth repeating – however there is a large number of repeaters who use this as a method of birth control. I don’t think it’s lost on some, even within PP, that such carelessness undermines their position.
Chris,
Praying that changes soon!! 2 women have already come forward at my church to stand with me and say that abortion hurt them too. The tide will turn, I have no doubt.
Chris, thanks for jumping in. I am not debating those numbers – generally it’s 1 in 3 for general population and Roman Catholics and 1 in 4 for those professing to be “Born Again” evangelicals (which I still consider high!).
I do submit that Doug’s number of 60% – 70% who would choose to have abortion is WAY off. MOST women who experience abortion experience some form of anguish and pain and regret to the extent that they would NOT choose that path again. Even if that number is only 50% of those women, that would put it at 75% who would NOT choose abortion which is a lot closer to 90% then the 35% Doug is claiming. You studied it, where are my numbers wrong?
TS: You are NOT getting it here.
Yes I am. You’re the one that’s not – you’re just way, way off on your math.
….
You are NOT taking into consideration that a very large percentage of those women who have had an abortion regret it and would never choose to have an abortion again. Get it now?
Doesn’t matter. As of now, roughly 1 in 3 women will have an abortion. That’s not counting any women who have already done so. “and would never choose to have an abortion again.” – well, many women feel that way in the first place and still end up having abortions, willingly, in a given situation. I know what you mean, but the fact remains that the number that “would have an abortion” versus “would not” is at least 30 – 40% PLUS those who don’t but would in certain situations, situations that didn’t occur in their lives but which could.
…..
Lets try to show you the numbers a different way so maybe you can understand what I am saying. Start by answering this question. What is your best guess at the percentage of women who have chosen abortions in the PAST but NOW either regret their choice or simply just had such a bad experience with it that they would never choose abortion again?
Again, I do know what you mean, but that percentage you ask for is small, since the huge, overwhelming majority of women who have abortions are glad they did so, on balance, and would do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
It’s smaller than the percentage of women who originally would likely be 100% against abortion but find that in their actual situation it’s best for them. At best, from your point of view, they would offset each other, though I find that implausible. Anyway, we’d still have the 30-40% plus those who would be never encountered the situation that’d have them doing it.
And Chris, it’s not always after the first abortion. Some women decide never to have abortion again after their second or third abortion. Sometimes I think society as a whole has is afraid to really look at these numbers cause it would make the “choice” of abortion a “pariah” instead of just a “stigma”.
No, TS, I’m looking ahead to all women as they enter the childbearing years. 1 in 3 of them are going to have an abortion, the way things look now, down somewhat from the past, as with Patricia’s figure.
Yes, some women have abortions, regret it, and “would not have another,” though there too you never know, as with women who end up having them after being just as sure they’d not do it.
In no way do “most women” have such a bad experience with abortion.
For the record, mock abortionists with bloodied dolls have saved the lives of real babies at the hands of real abortionists. No real people are harmed by this tactic; so why knock it? It’s not tasteful; the more accurate a portrayal of abortion is, the less tasteful it will be.
Doesn’t matter. As of now, roughly 1 in 3 women will have an abortion.
WRONG. Nobody knows what percentage of women WILL have an abortion.
Again, I do know what you mean, but that percentage you ask for is small, since the huge, overwhelming majority of women who have abortions are glad they did so, on balance, and would do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
Doug, Maybe if you could respond to my post from 12:29 the percentage on society as whole would be clearer to you.
WRONG again. Maybe if answered my posts
I do submit that Doug’s number of 60% – 70% who would choose to have abortion is WAY off.
TS, I think I said 50 -70. If 43% have had one as things are now, then add in the ones that would have had one if they were confronted with certain situations. It’s not far from 43 to 50.
…..
MOST women who experience abortion experience some form of anguish and pain and regret to the extent that they would NOT choose that path again.
You’re just factually incorrect, there.
…..
Even if that number is only 50% of those women, that would put it at 75% who would NOT choose abortion which is a lot closer to 90% then the 35% Doug is claiming. You studied it, where are my numbers wrong?
Again, even if none of the women who have had abortions in the past, regardless of whether they regret it on balance or not, are included, we still have 33% of women that WILL have abortions, thus your 10% figure is way, way wrong. Obviously, some would but won’t encounter the situations to make them want to, and thus the right answer has to be more than 33%….
Sorry Doug, I had left some unedited stuff in that previous post. Doug, Maybe if you could respond to my post from 12:29 the percentage on society as whole would be clearer to you.
“Doesn’t matter. As of now, roughly 1 in 3 women will have an abortion.”
WRONG. Nobody knows what percentage of women WILL have an abortion.
I said “roughly,” and indeed we do know. Historical trends in this matter are easy to see. You have this information just beyond the tips of your fingers, i.e. google, etc.
You’re just shooting from the emotional hip, as it were, without regard to the numbers we know to be true.
TS, have to laugh – what does it matter what politicians say?
Many of them are past childbearing years anyway.
The truth is that many Democratic women politicians of childbearing years, just as with Republicans women politicians, would have abortions in certain situations, no matter what they might say beforehand.
Carla @ 7:26 PM
That’s great 2 came forward. Thank you for being brave and please encourage them, you and they are in our prayers. Things are happening in our church as well – lots of healing and mentoring. It takes time, lots of love and great faith, but God answers – often in unexpected ways!
Doug, RoeVWade has only been around for 35 years. The younger generations of women are getting educated about the babies NOT being insensiate blobs of cells. The days of PP and people like you convincing these women that those precious lives inside them have no value and therefore abortion is nothing to regret are fading fast. It should make you feel uncomfortable.
TS, again, you’ve veered off into emotional rhetoric that has little if any bearing on things.
You are denying matters of fact that pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike know to be true.
I’ll certainly let you have the last word on this one.
TS, have to laugh – what does it matter what politicians say?
Many of them are past childbearing years anyway.
The truth is that many Democratic women politicians of childbearing years, just as with Republicans women politicians, would have abortions in certain situations, no matter what they might say beforehand.
Posted by: Doug at June 1, 2008 7:47 PM
Doug, that makes twice now you ducked that question. Once by ignoring it and then when
brought to your attention instead of responding you say you just have to laugh. If you understood that politicians WON’T endorse the fact that they would personally choose an abortion youhave to realize that it is because it would mean political DEATH from their constituents. Do you see the relevance now?
Hey Chris,
Very encouraging! Thanks so much for the prayers. Have you ever checked out Operation Outcry? More and more men, women and medical professionals are filling out declarations!
http://www.operationoutcry.org
They will overcome him(Satan)by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.
Revelation 12:11
TS @ 7:27 PM
First off, what’s the base? Write a function, like this:
gChooseAbortionNow = gPotentialPregnancyPopulation – (gProLife + gRegretfulPriorAborts);
(BTW – g simply designates it as a variable.)
I think off the top we’d have to reject women who aren’t capable of potential pregnancy: naturally infertile or medically infertile wouldn’t be included.
It doesn’t make sense talking about the whole female population because even if someone wanted to choose abortion, their infertility makes it a no-op. They aren’t going to get that “choice”.
The value you seem to be concerned with is the gRegretfulPriorAborts – right?
We need to clarify the base, otherwise we’ll be talking past each other.
Chris, I see what yu mean. We would also have to define pro-life, cause the way I am looking at most PC women are pro-life because they wouldn’t personally choose abortion but they are PC because they don’t want somebosy else having control of that decision.
I’ll certainly let you have the last word on this one.
Posted by: Doug at June 1, 2008 7:56 PM
And pro-actively ducking it for the thord time. HAAH HAAH HAH…. Oh, done like a seasoned pro-abort. Run away and live to spew another day.
Carla @ 8:13 PM
Yes – heard of Operation Outcry, Silent No More, and others. It’s a slow process, but it’s beginning to bear fruit. We can argue all day long about the scientific evidence and provide valid philosophical arguments, we can show amazing videos of 9 week old embryoscopies and describe how human the baby is, but nothing is more impacting on a young abortion minded girl than talking with someone who’s been there, done that and can relay the pain it has caused in her life. Together in large numbers, it’s rather condemning to those still trapped in their silent prison – little wonder the hatred shown is palpable.
Chris, any idea what percent of the PC crowd is PC cause they want to protect the women’s right to “choose”, but not because they would choose abortion for themselves.
truthseeker @ 8:20 PM
I think the confusion that’s happening is related to what is being solved for – do you want the political percentage or the operational percentage?
A PRC wants to know operational, while RTL & legislative efforts need political numbers.
I have my differences with Doug, however, he’s somewhat on track in saying:
We use the terms “abortion-vulnerable” and “abortion-minded” which are sort of degrees that a person leans towards abortion as a solution. Even if someone is “abortion-vulnerable” they can slip pretty fast towards abortion if a situation arises.
It’s incredibly hard to quantify, but there are different trends we can see – roughly 40% of the abortions performed now are repeaters and there is a trend towards younger first timers.
I also agree with you, and Doug should concede that since so much information is available on the Internet, those who have the desire to seek it out can do so, if they are interested in making a wise-choice. Those who really want to know what they are doing. I think that somewhat explains the trends, because the older, mature teens and college-age women’s numbers have been dropping.
Does this help?
truthseeker @ 8:43 PM
Good question – really hard to quantify, because there’s a mixture between a moral position and a political stance. Abortion remains an issue because it bestows political power. I think that brings us right back to Christ, because if you don’t have the right priorities, His priorities, then anything is possible.
I’ve got to call it a night TS – later!
Yes it does Chris.
What would be the solution for
gAbortionVulnerable/gAbortionMinded
if abortion-minded = would consider abortion for themselves and abortion-vulnerable = Want to keep woman’s right to choose but would not choose abortion for themselves. This equation would need to be aplied to the PC crowd as a base. Does that mske any sense?
disregard Chris, I got that equation wrong and I’ll repost in a minute.
Good night. I’ll put together an equation and post it for you to look at tomorrow.
And pro-actively ducking it for the thord time. HAAH HAAH HAH…. Oh, done like a seasoned pro-abort. Run away and live to spew another day.
Oh please. When have you seen me “run away” from an argument?
What politicians say doesn’t matter, and anecdotal stories don’t either.
My point is that roughly 33% of women will choose abortion in the future, and more than that have in the past. Thus, your 10% figure is not even close to correct.
Moreover, you just conjured it up, rather than going with any known facts on the issue.
(will choose abortion)+ (would choose abortion in certain circumstances but don’t encounter those circumstances) = total of who “would choose abortion.”
So, in the past it’d be 43% or 40%, etc, plus whatever the second quantity is, and there’s no good way to really know that.
Now, with women entering the childbearing years, usually said to be 15 – 44, we have roughly 33%.
Thus our final total of women who “would choose abortion” is more than 33%.
Also important to note that what people SAY does not = what people DO.
I’ve encountered pllllllenty of women in my years in public health who will say things like “Well normally I’m pro life..BUT…” or “I would never have had an abortion …BUT…”. So those are people who, on paper, would say things like “I’m pro life” or “I’m pro choice but I’d never have an abortion” – and yet they’ve had abortions.
My first roommate in NYC was one of those “I’m personally against abortion but I’m pro choice” types…
…she’s now had 4 abortions. Needless to say she didn’t regret the first three. Who knows about the fourth.
Eeek, where did all these math equations come from? I think I’ll make my exit lol.
she’s now had 4 abortions. Needless to say she didn’t regret the first three. Who knows about the fourth.
Seriously, things like this make me wonder what is wrong with people that they just can’t put 2 and 2 together.
The immense fear I have of being a single mother to a 2nd child has successfully helped me squeeze my legs closed for eternity..or at least until I’m married to a wonderful man. I know quite a few single mothers who are now on their 2nd kid from the SAME deadbeat loser dad, and I’ve got to say, I’m just baffled. I guess some people have to smack their head into a brick wall multiple times before they get that the result will ALWAYS be the same..thankfully, once was enough for me!
Elizabeth, God bless you!
Thank You Janet. God bless you as well.
Haha I hear ya Elizabeth!
1 @$$hole boyfriend did it for me. No kids fortunately, but still learned the lesson for sure. My intuition about the quality of men has been spot-on ever since… but plenty of girls I know just dont. get. it.
Yeah, it’s kind of funny for me. You can tell what kind of guy they are when you tell them 2 things: 1.) I have a kid and 2.) I’m not having sex until I get married. It’s kind of interesting how the 1st one doesn’t deter guys as much as the 2nd one does. I dated a guy when Gabriella was a couple of months old and he was “sweet” I guess you could say. I told him that I wasn’t going to have sex again until I was married, and no joke, NOT EVEN a week later he sent me a myspace message dumping me. It was really pretty funny. He got another gf and got her preggo, and the last time I talked to him he hadn’t even met his daughter and she’s almost 6 months old now.
I’m pretty happy being single..I don’t need the drama.
Amanda and Elizabeth, I have a niece, my Goddaughter, who is 28 and looking for the right guy to settle down and start a family with. I feel bad for her cause the great majority of men these days are irresponsible and don’t even understand what is required to take care of her and a family and provide the TLC she deserves. I tell her to pray to God for the right man to come along and He will provide.
Doug and Amanda, I understand what you are saying about the “I would not have an abortion personally but I am PC” group and I think these are the people that are skewing our interpretation of the numbers and causing such a VAST disagreement in our percentages. I would take them at their word and believe them to honest and just assume that what they are saying is that they don’t want the decision forced upon women, but they wold not decide to have an abortion. In my 90% argument, I was taking these women at their and including ALL of these types of women , young and old, in my 90%. Now for the sake of argument, if all of these women who claim they would never personally have an abortion were to be taken at their word and included in the women who would never have an abortion category, how close to 90% would we be.
Elizabeth,
Way to weed out the deadbeats with #1 and #2!! :) I am grateful that “the boy” ran and you carry on. I know God has someone very special in mind for you! I admire you very much and am so proud of you!
You could probably speak at high schools and middle schools, my dear. We have a lot to learn from you.
You know, if all posts were this reasonable, with actual conversations and communication, Jill wouldn’t need me as a moderator.
What a breath of fresh air it was to read all of the comments on here this morning.
You guys are great! Applause and Kudos to everyone that participated on this thread…:)
Hi Elizabeth:
Good for you!
Consider: my 13 yr old daughter has a girlfriend whose 15 yr old sister was dumped this year by her boyfriend because she refused to have sex. One has to wonder how many times this will happen before this poor girl finally “gives in”.
Doug said What politicians say doesn’t matter, and anecdotal stories don’t either.
Right – that’s true if the focus is on statistics and meaningful percentages.
Personal stories have great impact, simply because we can’t tell others their subjective experiences are wrong. That’s precisely what Amanda and Elizabeth have conveyed. But there is no way we can build statistics off of such stories. We have to look objectively at what has happened – what was actually chosen and done rather than snapshots of best guesses/opinions. Right?
TS – It seems you want some moral cognitive dissonance index (MCDI) when it comes to abortion.
That’s intriguing, however the expectation of the pregnancy is the critical factor. It’s only meaningful talking about unexpected pregnancies, so that’s the condition.
Here’s your groups (says & does):
ProChoice & Aborts – Increments Abortion Rate
ProLife & Aborts – MCDI (which increments abortion rate)
ProChoice & NoAbort – MCDI (which increments birth rate)
ProLife & NoAbort – Increments Birth Rate
Those two center groups are circumstantial wild cards. It may seem it’s dependent upon the stable relationship with the father, but that’s not always true – some pro-life professing women have aborted their children from their fiances, simply because they wanted to avoid the guilt and shame of being pregnant on their wedding day. Other pro-choice women have kept the child because the boyfriend steps up to fatherhood.
Abortion clinics target/serve one group, while PRCs target and serve the other MCDI group.
Does Barna, Gallup or Pew have anything along these lines?
Patricia,
I hope this 15 year old girl will continue to wait. We have the same thing going on at our middle school. 6th grade boys are telling their 6th grade girlfriends that they will be dumped if they don’t give in. 6th grade!! My son will be there in one year. Homeschooling looks pretty good.
Is there even one guest at that party who had a change of heart because of those protesters?
Or would the attendees just become more passionate for their cause?
BTW if those were longtime supporters of abortion they likely already know that abortion kills children.
Interrupting a private party, in a residential area, seems like an unwise strategy.
Carla:
Yeah it must be very difficult for girls today. My daughter said the 15 year old was absolutely devastated!
That’s why I have a no dating rule until after hs.
TS, the problem with viewing it as you are is that there will be more than 100% of women, since some women will be in the “would” group, then later in the “would not” group.
Aside from really crunching the numbers, you are trying to end up with less women that “would have abortions” than willingly have them in the first place. That’s what makes no sense to me, and what caught my eye in the first place.
Also, a given woman might go from the “would” to the “would not” then back to the “would,” depending on circumstances.
To look at things concretely, so many women will have an abortion, willingly. Beyond that, there is also the group that would but doesn’t encounter the circumstances to trigger it. This is before the fact of pregnancy/unwanted pregnancy. We could look at the group that has had abortions but claim they won’t, again, but now we’re overlapping with the larger group – those that have at least one abortion regardless of their position later on.
A subset of the group that does is the women who do, then later say they wouldn’t, again. And a subset of that group are the ones who end up having another abortion, anyway. Both those are conditional upon the individual, circumstances and experiences, not separate groups in the beginning, not different “slices of the pie,” from those who do and do not have abortions.
Now for the sake of argument, if all of these women who claim they would never personally have an abortion were to be taken at their word and included in the women who would never have an abortion category, how close to 90% would we be?
It’s not as bad as taking politicians at their word [snicker] but still an undefined quantity. Chris said the abortion rate was 1 in 4 for those professing to be “Born Again” evangelicals, and while I think that has since declined a bit along with the rate in general for US women, it illustrates how things can change.
In reality, among women who claim they wouldn’t, there are some that will, i.e. they actually most certainly would, depending on circumstance. If 15-20-25% of evangelicals end up having abortions, you can see how changeable a deal it is.
Chris: We have to look objectively at what has happened – what was actually chosen and done rather than snapshots of best guesses/opinions. Right?
Right on.
It would be interesting to have a “snapshot” for all women each year, say, for the ages of 15 to 44 (or whatever), though.
Though Child Beater Bob’s little freak show impressed Jill and her sychophants, the rest of his weekend wasn’t so good.
Senate candidate Bob Schaffer declined to support his “fertilized egg amendment” and it is unlikely any Colorado politician will touch that third rail.
Maybe it was, in part, Bob’s vicious attack on Schaffer, who had a 100% pro-life voting record as a congressman. The anti-choice extremists political suicide pact goes on!
The Denver Post had an editorial this morning against the “fertilized egg” amendment, titled “Fertile ground for a legal mess” which concluded “it is legal mischief and should be solidly rejected by the voters in November”.
Maybe Child Beater will dispatch Ron Brock to peer into the windows of the children of the Post Editorial Board. That will teach them!
Oh, and the Governor just signed a bill outlawing discrimination against gays that has Child Beater in a frenzy of homophobic paranoia.
If you want a real trip to Crazy Town, go to Bob’s website kgov.com, which also contains his abortion vigilantism death list. And his warnings about the Girl Scouts, which is a LESBIAN organization, and AARP, which is a CRIMINAL organization.
I can’t wait until ALL the voters in Colorado are introduced to Child Beater Bob and his merry band. Nothing like a 70 year old pervert in a fetus truck and a nut case in surgical scrubs waving around a bloody fetus doll to impress the voters!
What does Planned Parenthood do when you come in for an abortion? First, they treat you with dignity and respect. Then, they explain to you the abortion procedure. They don’t show you bloody images to scare you- not because they want your money, but because they understand you’re in a fragile emotional state. THEN- and here’s the kicker, guys- they discuss adoption and provide the information for a local adoption agency. They discuss their options for affordable prenatal care if you choose to continue your pregnancy. If you still want an abortion, they perform it safely.
“Hard core pro-aborts hate adoption and want it outlawed because it provides a life affirming choice to women that they think should be aborting their babies.” You are a nutjob. I don’t usually like to resort to name calling, but SERIOUSLY?
Yes, these protestors look ridiculous. And yes, you just made all the donors even more adamant about supporting the PC cause. Nice work. No minds were changed. This type of action will NEVER lead to minds being changed.
Bible thump and judge lifestyles and shower the world with exploitative, grotesque images. See how much more money gets thrown to the pro-choice cause. Your funds and time are better off supporting crisis pregnancy centers. Ick.
Hi annoyed,
Is that your abortion experience at PP that you are describing?
Does every single PP across the nation use these procedures that you are aware of?
Hi again annoyed,
Do you happen to know how many adoption referrals that PP made last year?
” No minds were changed. This type of action will NEVER lead to minds being changed. ”
———————————–
How do you know this? Were you invited there?
Did you ask each and every person there present (including the waiters and waitresses)?
I hate seeing those aborted pics…BUT it reminds me of the HORROR done to these babies and renews my resolve to end this carnage.
Immature/ Childish display aimed at SHOCK value?
So be it.
…given a few scant seconds for these supporters of death a view of the TRUTH of what they’re contributing to…I would have probably stood there holding a sign, too!
What do you mean by referral exactly? How may times the patient chooses adoption, or how many times the option is presented? It’s always presented, so the data, which sadly I do not have, would show patient preference.
I’ve never had an abortion, but this information I know from a) talking to those who have, b) doing actual research instead of just jumping on a “Planned Parenthood hates women and families and makes meeeellions off abortions” bandwagon, and c) volunteering my time at clinics to prove my information correct.
Oh, and I forgot the other important thing. You also get information on contraceptive and birth control methods, even a prescription if you’d like, to help prevent you ever being in this position again.
Yes, you can ask me how I know that no minds were changed. I can also ask the person above how they know that “no one left having enjoyed their dinner.” In my opinion, they would have enjoyed it more. People willing to pay that amount are clearly serious about being pro-choice. Although those grotesque pictures may have soured an appetite, the evening surely became more meaningful and inspiring to them as they saw what the opposition does and is trying to accomplish.
Annoyed 11:34: Although those grotesque pictures may have soured an appetite, the evening surely became more meaningful and inspiring to them as they saw what the opposition does and is trying to accomplish.
Meaningful and inspiring? Please.
Isn’t this known as ‘false compassion”?
“The immense fear I have of being a single mother to a 2nd child has successfully helped me squeeze my legs closed for eternity..or at least until I’m married to a wonderful man. I know quite a few single mothers who are now on their 2nd kid from the SAME deadbeat loser dad, and I’ve got to say, I’m just baffled. I guess some people have to smack their head into a brick wall multiple times before they get that the result will ALWAYS be the same..thankfully, once was enough for me!”
Elizabeth, I completely agree with you. I find it so sad that women have such a lack of self-respect that they keep going back to such dead-beat guys. I also know of a girl who had multiple abortions because she stayed with a jerk guy who apparently “couldnt fit” in condoms (and I’d like to see a penis that is bigger than someone’s forearm, which can fit into a condom) and they just couldn’t get birth control pills right. Oh, and now he’s cheating on her and she’s pregnant with her second child because she was refused an abortion recently (I figure at PP but I’m not positive). There hadn’t been studies on women having that many abortions and they didn’t know if it would affect her future fertility. Stories like this make me so angry with some women- stupid, stupid, stupid! And they make the pro-choice cause look stupid, too. Keep ’em closed if you can’t figure out how to be responsible, I say.
Annual PP report
2005-2006 abortions 264,943
2007 abortions 289,750
adoption referrals
2005-2006 2,413
2007 2.410
prenatal care
2005-2006 13,261
2007 11,058
The number of abortions going up, adoption referrals and prenatal care going down.
“Keep ’em closed if you can’t figure out how to be responsible, I say.”
————————-
Annoyed, NOW you’re talking about abstinence education…and I agree.
NOW you’re talking about abstinence education…and I agree.
LOL. Where did you get that out of her statement? It sounded more like personal advice than an argument that boys and girls shouldn’t be taught about sex.
RSD 11:29 No minds were changed.
PP was fully aware well in advance that these morons would appear. A group with a sum total IQ of 26 doesn’t do covert operations very well.
These crazies are their own worst enemies, and doubtless increase donations to PP.
Keep up the foolishness, Child Beater Bob, your stunts will not only crush the “personhood amendment” but line the PP coffers. Bob, you are a pro-choicers dream come true.
Carla, your data is inaccurately interpreted.
First of all, the two years being compared are 2005 and 2006, not 2007.
Secondly, the “prenatal care” refers to patients USING it and getting it from PP, not the number of people being told about prenatal care.
And adoption referrals are only counted when a woman chooses to go that route rather than have an abortion OR if she simply wants to adopt a child.
Was I interpreting??
Those were the numbers.
But thanks for always being there for me. I knew I could count on you, Edyt.
Sorry, the above wasn’t very clear. What I meant was: adoption referrals are when a woman knows she wants to give up her child for adoption and decides to go that route… so those would be the women who chose not to have an abortion. I don’t know if PP actually offers help for adoptive parents.
However, each woman is told of her options before she has an abortion.
Edyt, you’ve got it right. When I say “responsible” I mean knowing how to properly use contraceptives, but also knowing yourself personally to understand if you are truly ready.
And Carla- I appreciate your getting that info. But just because the patient made a certain choice does not mean that they weren’t given all the options beforehand.
Carla @ 11:50 AM
Perhaps the number of abortions at PP centers is increasing. Some of this may be due to other providers going out of business, and there’s probably a genuine increase in abortions.
24,807 – that’s a lot of lives.
Although that pre-natal care dip does look curious in light of the increase.
There is another TS out there. Just FYI. I will never post as TS. I do sometimes use ts when I am correcting mistakes or as a signature though.
So I guess I still don’t know whether every PP across the land tells women exactly what her baby looks like, offers an ultrasound, describes HOW they will kill her baby, the emotional risks of abortion and offers the option of adoption.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
PP doesn’t offer services to couples looking to adopt- they help the pregnant woman connect with an adoption agency if she so chooses.
Carla- I will not go out on a limb and say I know what every PP center does, because I simply cannot go to every clinic in the country to check up on them- but I do know this this is what is supposed to happen. Unlike CPCs, Planned Parenthood will not force an ultrasound on you to show you an image of the fetus. You can see one if you ask. And they describe the procedure thoroughly, though of course they wouldn’t call it “killing your fetus”- that’s not how you feel if you work at Planned Parenthood, and they’re not in the business of making their patients feel guilty or scared. Despite the horror this makes many pro-lifers feel, many pro-choicers simply don’t see abortion as murder. And if we’re talking about emotional risks here…yikes. I personally think CPCs terrify women into continuing a pregnancy…that would emotionally scar me I think. You may be able to point to studies of emotional risks of abortion, but I’m concerned with their methodology honestly. Was every woman who ever had an abortion questioned? Or just the ones who are outspoken about their negative feelings towards it? Potential for a skewed response, I feel.
TS – It seems you want some moral cognitive dissonance index (MCDI) when it comes to abortion.
That’s intriguing, however the expectation of the pregnancy is the critical factor. It’s only meaningful talking about unexpected pregnancies, so that’s the condition.
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at June 2, 2008 8:28 AM
**********
Chris, Please understand that I do appreciate all the ideas you are ofering about MCGI and group quantification for equation purposes. It is all helpful. I think you are on the right track with that MCDI stuff. What I am looking for is not historical prognosis but a figure that acurately shows the percentage of women who say they are personally against abortion. Both you and Doug now still have not been able to offer that percentage to me and instead you both tell me that number is somehow useless. I beg to differ and I think it could/would be very useful in discussions. I mean, if you could confidently tell people in the MCGI that 90% of women, when asked, take the position they would not personally choose an abortion, wouldn’t that be effective in showing that they are making a choice that 90% of women say they would not make. And if you could tell them that, couldn;t that have the effect of having them re-examine why they are going against what they always said they believed. I think this number could be GOLD in opening up discussions when counseling women in the MCGI group.
Again, you and Doug are telling me that number is useless but you are not disagreeing with my 90% estimate or telling me what you think the number would be. Can you both give me your best guess, regardless of how useless YOU think the number is? thx
truthseeker said:
Chris,
What is your best guess at the percentage of women who have chosen abortions in the PAST but NOW either regret their choice or simply just had such a bad experience with it that they would never choose abortion again?
Chris said,
TS, I study this stuff (strategic planning for a PRC) and that figure is so hard to nail down.
******
That is too bad Chris, cause again, it seems like really relevant stuff for pro-life counselors to have in order to talk shop with the MCDI group.
annoyed,
Does it also annoy you that PP never helps with the prosecution of child molestation. I mean, comsidering the number of young girls who get abortions there. Since you have worked so closely in the industry, tell me how many child predators have you seen PP report to the authorities. One a day? Cause it makes me ANNOYED that they let these predators off the hook to re-offend again and again.
annoyed,
I went to thge doctor the other cause I needed surgery on my foot. Why do you suppose my doctor didn’t make me ask to see the x-rays before he showed them to me.
annoyed,
I went to the doctor the other day cause I needed surgery on my foot. Why do you suppose my doctor didn’t make me ask to see the x-rays before he showed them to me?
Annoyed,
How do you know that CPC’s guilt and scare women into continuing a pregnancy? Have you ever even been to one? I have..when I was pregnant..and they were nothing but caring and INCREDIBLY helpful to me. Even after my parents knew and were helping me, the woman I had contacted first continued to call and make sure everything was going well, sent me cards with gift cards and other things. Great people work there and your portrayal of them is unfair and completely incorrect.
Annoyed,
How does it feel then working at a Planned Parenthood? If it’s not about killing babies. I am honestly asking.
I did not have an abortion at a Planned Parenthood. But I am wondering if I should now go undercover and find out for myself what is said or isn’t said. heh heh
You don’t need to look at any studies of women that regret their abortions or suffered emotionally after one. Ask some.
And while you’re at it, ask some women why they don’t regret their abortions.
A common theme seems to be they regretted being in such circumstances, but not the actions they took.
I just read some of those. I do know that some women come to regret their abortions 7-9 years later. By then careers have changed, spouses found, babies wanted…
Most had written about how relieved they felt. So did I.
Edyt,
Why do they regret being in such circumstances?
Because they regret having to kill their baby?
RSD said 11:55: NOW you’re talking about abstinence education…and I agree.
Edyt said: 12:06: LOL. Where did you get that out of her statement? It sounded more like personal advice than an argument that boys and girls shouldn’t be taught about sex.
You are confused about what “abstinence education means”. It’s more than telling kids to “JUST SAY NO”. The site “Parents for Truth.org” defines abstinence education:
Defining Abstinence Education
Abstinence education empowers teens to avoid risk by making good health decisions, regardless of their sexual history. Abstinence means to voluntarily refrain from sexual activity including, but not limited to, sexual intercourse. Abstinence education, as funded by Congress, is decidedly more inclusive than
I seem to have caused quite a stir here.
Truthseeker: Let’s clarify. When you say “molesters” are you implying actual verified child molesters, or just boys who get their young girlfriends pregnant? It just seems that you think if a girl is 14 and gets pregnant she must have been molested, even though most of the time-thankfully, because rape and molestation are horrendous- she gave her consent to the sexual intercourse. Is the boy’s age what concerns you- because different states have different laws on age of consent- or just that young girls are wanting to have sex?
PLEASE do not compare a foot x-ray with abortion.
Elizabeth- I see your point, I’m sorry I offended you, and I am very pleased at your situation and how it worked out. From my research however, I have learned that in some cases, girls who go there for abortions, unknowingly thinking the center is unbiased, are really scarred after the pictures shown to them and the treatment they sometimes receive from employees after being scolded about abortion. I shouldn’t have made such a broad generalization, this is just the information I’ve found about some centers.
Carla- I think that if you’re pro-choice, it feels completely normal to work at Planned Parenthood. I know it’s hard to comprehend for someone on the other end of the spectrum, but for PCers, you feel like you’re putting your values into action. I personally don’t see abortion as killing, so I had no problem volunteering with an agency I support. I’m sorry if you were looking for a more incendiary response than that.
Compare Abstinence education (above) to Comprehensive sex education (below): which would most parents prefer for their kids?
What is Comprehensive Sex Education (CSE)?
There are vast differences between abstinence education and CSE. The major distinction is how each approach regards teens. Abstinence education believes teens can and increasingly do, avoid sex, so the discussion empowers them to make the healthiest sexual decision
Why do they regret being in such circumstances?
Because they regret having to kill their baby?
TS, are you daft?
They regret the circumstances – like not using protection, or dating an asshole, or having a job that took up too much of their time, or having too many children. They do not regret the abortion.
No one HAS to kill a child. They choose to. And these women knew what choice they were making and went with it.
It’s not like people don’t KNOW it’s a baby when they’re pregnant. They don’t have ultrasounds and go “Wow, that’s really a baby?” If it were kittens or puppies maybe people wouldn’t be HAVING abortions but they DO because they know it’s going to be a baby. They don’t want the baby! They don’t want another child. They don’t want a reminder of/connection to a rape or bad relationship.
They regret the fact that bad circumstances happen. Not the choice they made.
And not all the women regret their circumstances either.
ts: Remember it’s not a baby, it’s a choice (sarcasm alert).
They regret the fact that bad circumstances happen. Not the choice they made.
And not all the women regret their circumstances either.
Keep on believing it.
annoyed:2:11: Despite the horror this makes many pro-lifers feel, many pro-choicers simply don’t see abortion as murder. And if we’re talking about emotional risks here…yikes. I personally think CPCs terrify women into continuing a pregnancy…that would emotionally scar me I think. You may be able to point to studies of emotional risks of abortion, but I’m concerned with their methodology honestly. Was every woman who ever had an abortion questioned? Or just the ones who are outspoken about their negative feelings towards it? Potential for a skewed response, I feel.
You make PC’rs out to be HEROES, helping provide “reproductive healthcare”, but you’re more concerned about skewed responses and your own emotional scarring than admitting women are adversely affected by abortion. A typical response of a pro-abort. If you can work at PP, you aren’t PC by the way. Why not compare a foot-xray with abortion ultrasounds? They are both part of “healthcare”. Toe care vs. abortion? It’s a woman’s choice, right?
Pro-lifers, check out this awesome site. This artist makes miniatures of polymer clay babies. Adorable!
http://www.camilleallen.com/id9.htm
Please don’t tell me that because of my volunteer work at Planned Parenthood I’m not pro-choice- what does that even mean, that I’m pro abortion? I’M NOT. I can’t wait to have children, and want abortion to no longer be necessary, which is why I give presentations to college students about safe sex practices. I’m pro choice because I am just a human like everyone else, thus I have no authority over what you want to do with your life.
“I am just a human like everyone else, thus I have no authority over what you want to do with your life. ”
—————————————-
NOBODY has authority over anybody else’s life…
hence our opposition to abortion.
I seem to have caused quite a stir here.
Truthseeker: Let’s clarify. When you say “molesters” are you implying actual verified child molesters, or just boys who get their young girlfriends pregnant? It just seems that you think if a girl is 14 and gets pregnant she must have been molested, even though most of the time-thankfully, because rape and molestation are horrendous- she gave her consent to the sexual intercourse. Is the boy’s age what concerns you- because different states have different laws on age of consent- or just that young girls are wanting to have sex?
Posted by: annoyed at June 2, 2008 2:11 PM
annoyed,
Child molester refers to both statutory rape
and forced rape. Now answer the question.
…EXCEPT on what the Lord wills …
PLEASE do not compare a foot x-ray with abortion.
Posted by: annoyed at June 2, 2008 2:11 PM
Question dodged like a true pro-abort. That makes two-for-two in questions dodged. Maybe you How bout answering the question and then I’ll show you the relevance. If you dodge again I’ll have to change your name from annoyed to annoying.
I went to the doctor the other day cause I needed surgery on my foot. Why do you suppose my doctor didn’t make me ask to see the x-rays before he showed them to me?
Posted by: ts at June 2, 2008 1:31 PM
Please don’t tell me that because of my volunteer work at Planned Parenthood I’m not pro-choice- what does that even mean, that I’m pro abortion? I’M NOT. I can’t wait to have children, and want abortion to no longer be necessary, which is why I give presentations to college students about safe sex practices. I’m pro choice because I am just a human like everyone else, thus I have no authority over what you want to do with your life.
Posted by: annoyed at June 2, 2008 2:42 PM
That’s a very typical argument for a pro-abort. There’s no emotional connection whatsoever to the woman or baby. It’s very SAD. Sorry, but that’s how I see it.
Abortion isn’t necessary.
Nobody HAS to kill a child.
Sorry. The phrase above is what Edyt wrote and my brain stuttered over it. ??!! Nobody HAS to kill a child. They choose to.
CHILLING, really.
Well, Carla, you’re proof of such statements.
True enough, Edyt.
Edyt,
Nobody HAS to participate in self-mutilation either. But sane people still say it is wrong and counsel against it.
Sane people? Have you ever met a self-mutilator? Because often those people are quite sane, if not intense perfectionists who often cast blame on themselves rather than others. Often self-mutilators were abused as children and made to feel guilty, worthless, and evil.
I won’t say their method of handling grief and feelings of worthlessness are healthy, but they are NOT insane.
Besides, you can’t just “advise” a SMer to stop cutting/burning as if it will “solve” the problem. You have to work to heal their heart and the cutting will go away on its own.
Actually I have never met a self-mutilator. But I agree that the proper way to assist them is not to enable their self-mutilation, but rather to provide counseling and support to help them heal, much the same as should have been provided to the women who stick hangars inside themselves to terminate pregnancies.
truthseeker -it looks like several posts have disappeared from this thread – I posted a response to you re: your 1:07 PM post, but it’s missing. (Lately my posts have hung –
Short response – handing stats to a pregnant girl is not as effective as doing an ultrasound, but it’s possible up to 90% of women would say they are personally against abortion themselves. My suggestion was to go check Barna, Gallup or Pew.
And self-mutilation is insanity:
insanity – a deranged state of the mind usually
occurring as a specific disorder
Chris, I think your talking about your response from 8:28a.m. aren’t you? Ive seen the gallup polls and I’ll check some of the others but I don;t think they ask the question like I want it answered.
Thanks again. Bouncing this stuff off you has been productive for me.
Chris,
I have noticed if I hit the refresh symbol to the right of the address bar at the top, it will speed up the posting. Maybe that will help.
PLEASE do not compare a foot x-ray with abortion.
Posted by: annoyed at June 2, 2008 2:11 PM
Question dodged like a true pro-abort. That makes two-for-two in questions dodged. Maybe you How bout answering the question and then I’ll show you the relevance. If you dodge again I’ll have to change your name from annoyed to annoying.
I went to the doctor the other day cause I needed surgery on my foot. Why do you suppose my doctor didn’t make me ask to see the x-rays before he showed them to me?
Posted by: ts at June 2, 2008 1:31 PM
Posted by: truthseeker at June 2, 2008 2:56 PM
………………………………….
He felt you needed to be provided clinical proof that you actually have a foot?
Edyt,
Nobody HAS to participate in self-mutilation either. But sane people still say it is wrong and counsel against it.
Posted by: truthseeker at June 2, 2008 3:33 PM
……………………………………………………..
A educated sane person would not label the symptom of a disorder as Right’ or ‘Wrong’. Demon possession is no longer a valid diagnosis for what one doesn’t understand.
ts: 1:31: I went to the doctor the other day cause I needed surgery on my foot. Why do you suppose my doctor didn’t make me ask to see the x-rays before he showed them to me?
Hmmm……
Because he knew you wouldn’t become emotionally attached to your foot and (*gasp!*) change your mind about the surgery?
Because he knows real doctors want their patients to understand the surgical procedure in advance?
Because, it’s a foot, silly, not a choice!
Actually I have never met a self-mutilator. But I agree that the proper way to assist them is not to enable their self-mutilation, but rather to provide counseling and support to help them heal, much the same as should have been provided to the women who stick hangars inside themselves to terminate pregnancies.
Ummm… yeah, except that people who mutilate simply don’t have the tools to handle extreme emotions, whereas women who want abortions just don’t want children. It says nothing of their mental state at the time.
And will you knock off your “insanity” kick? It’s getting old. It’s really f***ing insulting. And you don’t even know anything about self-injury so go educate yourself before you say any more stupid things about people.
@Truthseeker: In the field of psychology- there is no such thing as “insanity”. “Insanity” is only a legal term to determine the mental competence/state of an individual on trial.
Rae, I like Albert Einstein’s definition.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
@Edyt: Sounds like the personhood amendments that have been attempted and quashed in several states- yet- they continue…
Edyt,
You may want to go after f@#!ing Merriam-Webster. I just grabbed there #1 definition out of dictionary.
@Truthseeker: And guess what? The dictionary uses colloquial definitions. If you actually took the time to study psychology there is no diagnosis of “insane”- it’s purely a legal term that has been hijacked by lazy people to describe those who “don’t behave like everybody else”. Kind of like murder.
Edyt,
Nobody HAS to participate in self-mutilation either. But sane people still say it is wrong and counsel against it.
Posted by: truthseeker at June 2, 2008 3:33 PM
I may be wrong, but I think ts is referring to the sanity of the people who see it as wrong and counsel against it, and not implying a lack of sanity in the self-mutilator. Make sense?
I know you prefer political correctness where you never call behaviour abnormal cause it might offend someone. Perhaps it is because you find reality so difficult to live in. I prefer to see things for the truth. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Fire is hot. Self-mutilation is abnormal etc.. etc…
Truthseeker,
Rae’s right. No doctor will ever use “insanity” to define a mental disorder. Insanity does not exist in medical terms, it is purely a legal one.
Plus, self-injury is more of a coping strategy than a disorder, where brain synapses are misfiring or bodily chemicals are at the wrong levels. Often self-injurers suffer from other disorders, like bipolar disorder, but the cutting is independent of such disorders, as it can be seen in people who do not have that disorder.
Like I said, it’s like a coping mechanism, where all the people need is a better way to deal with their emotions. It’s kind of like putting people in anger management, except instead of teaching them to not act aggressively at others, they have to learn to not act aggressively toward themselves.
Would you call someone in anger management insane?
No. So don’t do it to people who self-injure either.
You are correct Janet. As posted I was referring to sanity in seeing that delf-mutilation was wrong. since Edyt responded about insanity I provided her with the definition of insanity from the dictionary
“I know you prefer political correctness where you never call behaviour abnormal cause it might offend someone. Perhaps it is because you find reality so difficult to live in. I prefer to see things for the truth. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Fire is hot. Self-mutilation is abnormal etc.. etc…”
@Truthseeker: Of *course* self mutilation is abnormal behavior- doesn’t make somebody insane (meaning it doesn’t make them incompetent to stand trial in a court of law by a jury of their peers).
It’s not about being “Politically correct” it’s about being correct or incorrect. Yes, certain behaviors are abnormal- for example I have to constantly have sound on no matter where I am otherwise I feel like I’m dead. Abnormal? Probably. Does that mean I’m a nucking futter? Nope.
“I may be wrong, but I think ts is referring to the sanity of the people who see it as wrong and counsel against it, and not implying a lack of sanity in the self-mutilator. Make sense?”
No, considering sanity vs. insanity does not really exist outside of a court of law. That’s the thing- people take words that already have a certain meaning and try to change it to better fit their ends. Sounds familiar…oh wait, I got it! It’s exactly what the “pro-family values” folks say about gays “stealing” marriage!
Janet, you seem to be in tune with the meaning of my posts. thx for clarifying for others who might misinterpret. You are “sight-on”, if that’s even a word.
Self-mutilation is abnormal etc.. etc…
At what point is something deemed abnormal?
According to the BBC, a THIRD of girls (that’s 1 out of 3) aged 11-19 have self-harmed. More than half of those surveyed knew someone who had or continued to self-harm.
The U.S. estimate for self-injurers is somewhere around 2 million. Size-wise, that’s the entire population of Houston. About 10-20 percent of college students self-injure or have self-injured, though some experts say only 1 percent of people in the U.S. actually do it.
So feel free to keep calling it abnormal, but it’s a lot more “normal” than you think.
(For a good comparison, about 2 percent of the population are natural red heads. Now think about how often you’ve seen a natural red head, and the number of self-injurers you’ve seen is higher than that.)
Rae, I for one do not accuse gays of stealing marriage….cause it is IMPOSSIBLE. Marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. Period. See. It is impossible. What God has given no man (or woman) can take away.
@Truthseeker: I’m not talking about the “sacrament” of marriage- but the WORD marriage.
Edyt, I was looking at it in a general scope of the fact that most people try and stay healthy. So self-mutilation is abnormal. Simple.
Mpw if you want to look at it according to percentages then it would still abnormal:
abnormal – deviating from the normal or average
And even those twenty percent that self-mutilate feel like they should self mutilate for a short percentage of their entire lives. Don’t most get counseling and a change of heart and live the great percentage of their lives without self-mutilation?
for example I have to constantly have sound on no matter where I am otherwise I feel like I’m dead. Abnormal? Probably. Does that mean I’m a nucking futter? Nope.
Posted by: Rae at June 2, 2008 11:43 PM
Rae, When you say you feel dead, what do you mean. Do you visions where you are in a casket or are you saying you can’t move liee you pass out or something? I don’t think your nucking futs cause you carry in rationale conversations here all the time.
Sorry about all the typing errors. I am in the dark and I don’t proofread much.
@Truthseeker: I’m not talking about the “sacrament” of marriage- but the WORD marriage.
Posted by: Rae at June 2, 2008 11:55 PM
Oh, then I can see how those non-sacramentally married couples would say that since marriage has been around and defined as the union of a man and a woman since pre-historic time.
Edyt,
Any self-mutilators you know. Please tell them truthseeker says there is a world of hurt waiting for those who rebel against God. And a world of mercy and love waiting for those who seek God through Jesus Christ.
“Rae, When you say you feel dead, what do you mean. Do you visions where you are in a casket or are you saying you can’t move liee you pass out or something? I don’t think your nucking futs cause you carry in rationale conversations here all the time.”
@Truthseeker: It’s the sensory deprivation- being in a dark quiet room where my eyes are open but yet I see and hear nothing is very unsettling. It started way back when I was little and my parents used to say, “There might not be a tomorrow” (hinting at that I should do my stuff instead of putting it off till tomorrow because I could die in my sleep)- and I used to wake up in the middle of the night a lot and without a light on or sound I would think I wasn’t really awake but dead.
“Oh, then I can see how those non-sacramentally married couples would say that since marriage has been around and defined as the union of a man and a woman since pre-historic time.”
So? Slavery, war, genocide, and abortion have been around since then as well- why are those unacceptable but stating marriage as between a “man and woman” acceptable?
Please tell them truthseeker says there is a world of hurt waiting for those who rebel against God. And a world of mercy and love waiting for those who seek God through Jesus Christ.
Right, TS, I’m sure that will make them feel soooooo comforted and they will magically stop cutting themselves.
*eyeroll*
Elizabeth, Jesus can heal the pain which causes a person to desire to cut themselves. I was under the impression that you were a follower of Christ…Why then would you mock truthseeker? Even if you think that his post was misrepresentative of what you believe….as a Christian, don’t you feel that mocking your brother in Christ is just mean? Maybe you could have come to him in a private email instead.
@Truthseeker: It’s the sensory deprivation- being in a dark quiet room where my eyes are open but yet I see and hear nothing is very unsettling. It started way back when I was little and my parents used to say, “There might not be a tomorrow” (hinting at that I should do my stuff instead of putting it off till tomorrow because I could die in my sleep)- and I used to wake up in the middle of the night a lot and without a light on or sound I would think I wasn’t really awake but dead.
Rae, that sounds so similar to my experiences as a child!! Wow.
Any self-mutilators you know. Please tell them truthseeker says there is a world of hurt waiting for those who rebel against God. And a world of mercy and love waiting for those who seek God through Jesus Christ.
Yeah, umm, actually I do, and there’s no way I’m going to send them to someone who THINKS THEY ARE INSANE.
They don’t need God, they need better coping strategies. Furthermore, self-abuse is addictive, like cigarettes, because it releases endorphins in your brain. It’s the body’s natural pain defense so that you calm down. So basically, you’re feeling pain and pleasure at the same time.
Plus, the Christian faith focuses INTENSELY on guilt and shame, so I don’t think that would help anyone who cuts. Haven’t you ever heard of those religious fanatics who flagellate themselves for their sins?
Same idea. Punishment.
The last thing we need is for a bunch of self-injurers to feel justified because they’re atoning for their sins.
Wrong. The Christian faith does NOT focus INTENSELY on guilt and shame. You are wrong, Edyt. Wrong.
I am sorry that someone hurt you who called themselves a Christian. You are hateful and intolerant of those who believe in Christ. I haven’t read anything you have posted that is equally as intolerant or hateful of Islam or Buddhism.
I think you know you are wrong but only want to stir up trouble. I fell for it. Again.
Hey Carla, where do you get off with this whole “some bad Christian hurt you very badly you poor injured puppy and if you only knew there were good Christians you’d be one too” deal? I know Christians are just as good/bad of people as anyone else. I don’t take it more personally when a Christian is a jerk rather than an atheist.
Of course Christianity focuses on guilt and shame. Helllloooo… what else is the point of reiterating the Original Sin so many times and telling the point of Jesus’ death? It’s to make people feel guilty and shameful and want to give money to the church.
Islam is also a guilt/shame religion. Buddhism, on the other hand, tries to release those feelings. There’s a funny story about that actually… One night a Buddhist is walking in the woods and he steps on something and it goes “SQUISH” … of course it’s wrong for Buddhists to kill anything, so he immediately goes home feeling horribly guilty and sad and that he’s done a really bad thing. The next day he goes out because he has to see what he killed and it turns out it was just a piece of fruit.
The moral of that story is: If you don’t know what it is, don’t worry about it.
Hahahaha. Buddhism is just funny, honestly. I think it’s the cute little brother type to all those big mean religions.
But no, I think they’re all equally ridiculous.
I get off speaking my mind just as you do. But if I started knocking atheism, I can just imagine what you would say.
EDYT:The moral of that story is: If you don’t know what it is, don’t worry about it. Hahahaha.
Funny how some PC’rs say that about aborted “babies” too. (Not you, specifically.)
Edyt: Hey Carla, where do you get off with this whole “some bad Christian hurt you very badly you poor injured puppy… and if you only knew there were good Christians you’d be one too” deal?
The first part is true because you’ve mentioned how Christians you trusted hurt you in the past. The second part of your sentence is a fabrication on your part – no one would assume you’d ever become one.
Go ahead, Carla. I think a person should be able to laugh at their own personal beliefs every once in awhile. I don’t think atheism should be immune any more than Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.
And by the way, I do think Islam is the most dangerous religion in the world at present.
Janet, of course, Christians have done hurtful things toward me, but that’s not why I’m an atheist, which is what people have been insinuating lately. Fact is, everyone hurts someone at some point, religion aside. I’m not childish enough to think that people are only mean, bad people just because of religion. It helps, but the heart is already rotten before the cruelty comes out.
I’ve also said before, I started stepping away from Christianity at a young age because I believed I was a “bad person” and did not want to be an example of Christian behavior until I cleaned up my act.
I just…eh, never went back, I guess. Turn on the lights and all of a sudden you don’t feel like sitting around in the dark anymore.
So? Slavery, war, genocide, and abortion have been around since then as well- why are those unacceptable but stating marriage as between a “man and woman” acceptable?
Posted by: Rae at June 3, 2008 9:02 AM
Rae, does that mean we should now be able to change the definition of war and slavery so that it is only used to define fighting within the same race? See, it’s not just that it exisited in pre-historic times, it is that you are trying to change the definition of a description of something that has been around and defined in a certain way since pre-historic times. See the difference?
I’ve also said before, I started stepping away from Christianity at a young age because I believed I was a “bad person” and did not want to be an example of Christian behavior until I cleaned up my act.
I just…eh, never went back, I guess. Turn on the lights and all of a sudden you don’t feel like sitting around in the dark anymore.
Posted by: Edyt at June 3, 2008 1:44
Edyt, it sounds like you had so much respect for Christianity that you didn’t want to defile it by calling yourself a Christian so you found it easier to turn OFF the lights and stay in the dark instead of finding your way to the light.
Maybe because you got tired of fighting to give up some vices?
Bethany,
What I actually was mocking was the idea that “there is a world of hurt for those who rebel against God” as though people who self-mutilate have every intention of “rebelling against God.” That was a ludicrous statement to make to people who self-mutilate and shows profound ignorance towards people who do so. I am a follower of Christ and as such would never make such a ridiculous and hurtful statement towards people who hurt themselves. THAT is not what they need to hear. And not to be rude, but this is a public forum, and all I did was point out how hurtful TS’s statement was. I didn’t know I had to reply in private email’s about somebody else’s ignorant comments.
Elizabeth. In no way was I stating the idea that “there is a world of hurt for those who rebel against God” as though people who self-mutilate have every intention of “rebelling against God.” You misunderstood. I would recommend telling that to anybody and everybody and meant no bias or judgement upon self-mutilators in particular.
Edyt: I’ve also said before, I started stepping away from Christianity at a young age because I believed I was a “bad person” and did not want to be an example of Christian behavior until I cleaned up my act.
I had forgotten the first part of that. I can understand how you might react in that way. God loves us all, no matter how we feel about ourselves – you know?
I would recommend telling that to anybody and everybody and meant no bias or judgement upon self-mutilators in particular.
So you want to scare people into behaving then?
“See, it’s not just that it exisited in pre-historic times, it is that you are trying to change the definition of a description of something that has been around and defined in a certain way since pre-historic times. See the difference?”
No.
Marriage has been a constantly changing paradigm. At first it was merely an economic arrangement as a method for a man’s family to get more land and therefore more power. Later on it morphed into a religious ceremony as well in addition to the economic “ceremony”.
Previously, only members of the same state in society could marry- rich marry rich, poor marry poor. It was also said that whites marry whites and blacks marry blacks- and a white and black marrying was against the law up until the 1960’s in some states.
War on the other hand has always been about killing the other dude for economic gain. Ditto with slavery- it was always about power.
Can you both give me your best guess, regardless of how useless YOU think the number is?
Truthseeker, I’ll sure try, but it depends on the situation. I mean that I think most women would choose to have abortions in certain situations.
Meanwhile, I’d also say that most wouldn’t choose it for themselves in other situations.
So, if things are bad enough, then a LOT of women would willingly have abortions, and if not, then far less. As to exact percentages it be a total guess on my part.
For example, some women who had abortions and are now VERY much against it would still have one in the future, given certain circumstances, just as would Evangelical women who start out very much against it, etc., for the most part.
I just think it’s so situational….
Bethany, I agree. Elizabeth, don’t do that. You haven’t appeared very “Christian” these days. And WHY DID YOU CALL COURTNEY LUV A SKANK? That is not being a good Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bethany, I agree. Elizabeth, don’t do that. You haven’t appeared very “Christian” these days. And WHY DID YOU CALL COURTNEY LUV A SKANK? That is not being a good Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Elizabeth, think about it. When you do things like that, you are sort of coming off as the opposite.
Oh yes Heather, and you know *so* much about being a good Christian…if anything you’re the damned hypocrite.
Rae, how do YOU know what religion I am?
Rae, what do you think about Elizabeth and some of her comments? They are a little odd if you ask me.
I find it strange that Elizabeth has jumped on the “holier than thou” bandwagon, and she isn’t acting very kind to some. That’s just not the way it works.
Heather, I don’t see any problems with Elizabeth’s comments. She’s just expressing her opinion.
That’s just not the way it works.
Please, tell me, how does it work?
@Heather: I think you’re Christian because you have previously stated that you were a practicing Catholic- and by “practicing” it means you’re still working on getting it right.
I see nothing wrong with Elizabeth’s comments.
Heather,
I don’t walk around and preach about how everyone should be a good Christian or follow the Bible to the word and act like that’s what I do in.any.way. I would be a hypocrite if I did THAT and THEN made the comments I did. But I really don’t. I don’t talk about my religion because it isn’t really anybody’s business in a public forum at least. I’ve talked about my beliefs with Rae, Mk, and Bobby somewhat. I am also only human, and if you interpret my opinions to be “not Christian enough” for you, then I’m sorry. I merely express my opinions and having known people who self-mutilated, telling them that there is a world of hurt for them for rebelling against God is not the most productive comment to make. So I was a little offended by truthseekers assertion that that would be an appropriate comment to make to self-mutilators. He then stated that I misunderstood and that wasn’t what he meant. That’s fine, I misunderstood, I’m over it.