No Frances Bean?
When I think of dead stars Heath Ledger and Kurt Cobain, I think how comforted their families must be to have a piece of them left here on earth in their daughters, conceived in imperfect circumstances.
And a convenient abortion was recommended for at least 1 of them, according to the New York Post, May 28:
Frances Bean Cobain – the 15-year-old daughter of rockers Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain – would have been aborted in the womb if Love’s handlers had had their way, an upcoming book claims….
In Bumping Into Geniuses, a memoir about the music business, Danny Goldberg, former CEO of Warner Bros. Records who also managed Kurt’s band Nirvana, reveals how he and a group of Love’s inner circle – worried about her heroin use during pregnancy – plotted an intervention.
During a meeting with a doctor at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center’s chemical dependency program, the doctor “tried to give clinical advice, suggesting to Courtney that it was not a great idea to have a baby while dealing with addiction,” writes Goldberg. That didn’t sit well with Love, who exploded.
“You’re not telling me to have a [bleep]-ing abortion, are you?” asked Courtney, her voice rising with her trademark hostile whine. “I mean I’m pro-choice, but that doesn’t mean that anyone has the right to tell me to have a [bleep]ing abortion.”
[He] suggested that it might not be safe for the baby, and Courtney, who was only 6 weeks pregnant, went into a confrontational mode. “Is that a medical fact, or is that just your opinion? I want to see it in a medical book.” She was interested in medical facts, not a sermon. [He] sheepishly acknowledged that at this early stage of pregnancy a woman could discontinue heroin use with no physical or psychological damage to the fetus. Courtney looked triumphant as she towered over the doctor seated at his desk.
Courtney did stop using heroin, and Frances Bean was born in perfect health on Aug. 18, 1992. Love had no comment on the book. In an interview last year, Frances Bean said: “People are fascinated by me, but I haven’t done anything . . . I’m not my parents.”
Another mom, like Nicole Richie, whose maternal instincts gave her strength to battle off personal demons.
[HT: proofreader Angela and LifeSiteNews.com; photo of mom and daughter courtesy of Reuters; photo of family in 1993 courtesy of People]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
There’s one decision I’m sure Courtney will never regret.
It really makes you wonder if perhaps her pregnancy was her wake up call, and gave her something (someone) to live for other than herself and her addiction.
Kudos to her.
One wishes Lauren Richardson’s mom had
as much backbone as Courtney Love.
Edith pressured Lauren to abort, which is rumored to have
encouraged Lauren’s heroin relapse after nearly a year
of being clean.
Why such a pro-death individual has a right to be
Lauren’s guardian is a mystery.
Especially when her loving Father wants to care for her.
http://www.lifeforlauren.org
sad, but courtney did have an abortion after the birth of her daughter.
Ah yes- Courtney Love- she’s such a *great* example for everybody…not.
Apparently you haven’t noticed that Courtney Love has been in and out of drug rehab and consistently engaging in bizare behavior for 15 years after the birth. And that the father blew off his head with a shotgun.
Anyway, I hope the girl has found someone responsible to raise her, because her parents weren’t exactly a model of good parenting…
Courtney Love took turning 40 to the next level, by being hauled out by the EMT in handcuffs, after what the Post calls an “abortion” drama. The Post says that a woman called 911 from Love’s apartment, saying there was a miscarriage; earlier, Love was saying in her lobby “today is my birthday and I had an abortion.” Love allegedly babbled to a Post reporter a few days ago that she was pregnant, but who knows what the hell she was drinking or on at the time? The handcuffs were not because of the arrest warrant on her in L.A. but because police thought she might be a danger to herself. The police were on the scene because Love was seen throwing bottles from her SoHo apartment. Her lawyers says Love was being treated for a “gynecological medical condition,” not drugs, and now, Love is at Bellevue. Yes, Bellevue, the hospital people go to when they are crazy! As Gawker says, “Just when ya think the old girl can’t bring the tabloid magic, she really pulls through. Bless you, Courtney! Happy birthday!” Honestly, it’s like a birthday present to the Post and Daily News.
Who knows if it’s true.
“One wishes Lauren Richardson’s mom had
as much backbone as Courtney Love.”
Backbone…Courtney Love… really?? LOL.
She’s had more heroin/alcohol/other drug relapses in the last 10 years than she has fingers and toes.
Heather – she likes the attention. The drug/booze fueled rampages and antics got old and boring to the media, so she had to try something new. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised either way.
Yep, Courtney Love is a saint for not having an abortion that time.
Jill, why praise Courtney Love for choosing to have a baby? So many pro-choicer’s do have children. It’s not a big deal. I mean, for every one person who never want’s to have a child, there are 14 others who want to have as many as possible. It’s natural. It’s instinct. Having children is just something people will do because they can.
Although I don’t feel having a child simply because you’re fertile (look guys, I knocked some chick up!) isn’t a good reason. For instance, liking children should be a factor in whether or not you should have them.
Psst Jill… I don’t want to embarrass you but, um, I think the comment counter on this is broken. It say’s (3) but it’s obviously more then that.
“Yep, Courtney Love is a saint for not having an abortion that time.”
Perhaps her daughter thinks so.
Addiction is a terrible thing, and mocking Courtney Love isn’t going to help her in any way. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if my every move were tracked, every mistake I’d made splashed across the tabloid rags, and had lost a lot of people I’d loved in life due to my own choices. :(
Courtney Love: She’s “out there.”
Anytime someone in the public eye embraces motherhood, it’s a good thing. A Hollywood celebrity is a role model whether they like it or not. I am sure that Courtney and her daughter are glad to have each other. She gave her daughter life and I, for one, am glad. No comment on all the other DRAMA…..
You ok, Amanda?
I for one remain convinced Courtney Love is mentally ill. I’ll even stick my neck out here and say what I think, that she’s a borderline personality disorder(BPD). In my opinion, because I’m convinced she has this disorder, we will continue to see drug relapses, bizarre behavior, violent epidsodes, and seemingly normal behavior where we will think she’s pulling her life together. She’s not. These behavior patterns will last a lifetime.
The most important question to ask here is what Frances Bean thinks of her life. Would she have preferred not to be born? Her life has certainly been no bed or roses but would she have preferred her mother abort her?
I don’t know how I feel about Courtney. Take her or leave her is my attitude, but I give her credit for not having an abortion with Frances.
I respect celebrities who keep their kids a hell of a lot more than the celebrities who abort them. Many have even gone on to call it a good thing. Ms. Magazine petition is one example. Sad. And Whoopi Goldberg has had at least 8 abortions. She still fights publicly for “a woman’s right to choose.” This is disturbing.
Frances is such a beautiful girl and those striking eyes! Me and my eye fixation again:)
I understand Frances was an excellent student and also an athlete. She was also in the custody of relatives during her mother’s relapses.
We simply have no way of predicting how children will turn out, whatever circumstances they are born into. We can only hope Frances will have a happier life than either of her parents.
Actress Judy Garland was pushed into having an abortion she did not want by her husband(David Rose), mother, and studio head.
I understand that during or after her pregnancy with Liza Minnelli, she commented that she finally had permission to have a baby. She seemed very bitter about being forced into an abortion she did not want.
She was such and incredible talent yet her life was so tragic, hooked on drugs at an early age by a stage mother and studio doctors, treated as a commodity.
She died at 48 years old.
I’m sorry, this whole thread is..just..funny.
Good for you Courtney Love for not having an abortion with THIS kid.
Too bad you’re still a skeezy b**ch with no class.
I wouldn’t exactly call what Courtney Love has done with her and her daughter’s life “embracing motherhood.”
Hi Elizabeth 10:26PM
If my theory about Courtney being a BPD is correct (3:18PM) and I’m convinced it is, I can only hope people will find it in themselves to be more charitable toward her.
These people do nothing to make people like them, they are for the most part very difficult people to understand or deal with and very unlikable. I’m convinced one of our surgeons was so afflicted. He was despised by all of us, including me. Real charitable eh?
My father had this disorder and you literally walk on eggshells, they can explode into insane rages over the most trivial things. They can even be fairly rational for some time, giving loved ones hope there will be a change, then slip back into their irrational behavior.
They usually are drug and alcohol abusers.
They do not have the emotional wiring to be parents and I hope my daughter, who is afflicted with this disorder, has a tubal ligation. They can do immense emotional damage to their children.
In my opinion, Courtney displays all the traits of BPD and she certainly has shown no ability to parent.
That her daughter so far seems to have coped well just proves we can never predict how children will turn out.
Hi Elizabeth 10:26PM
If my theory about Courtney being a BPD is correct (3:18PM) and I’m convinced it is, I can only hope people will find it in themselves to be more charitable toward her.
These people do nothing to make people like them, they are for the most part very difficult people to understand or deal with and very unlikable. I’m convinced one of our surgeons was so afflicted. He was despised by all of us, including me. Real charitable eh?
My father had this disorder and you literally walk on eggshells, they can explode into insane rages over the most trivial things. They can even be fairly rational for some time, giving loved ones hope there will be a change, then slip back into their irrational behavior.
They usually are drug and alcohol abusers.
They do not have the emotional wiring to be parents and I hope my daughter, who is afflicted with this disorder, has a tubal ligation. They can do immense emotional damage to their children.
In my opinion, Courtney displays all the traits of BPD and she certainly has shown no ability to parent.
That her daughter so far seems to have coped well just proves we can never predict how children will turn out.
Posted by: Mary at May 30, 2008 10:51 PM
……………………………..
Why didn’t you get your tubes tied? Why do you think your daughter has less right to chance bring an ‘imperfect’ child into the world than you do?
Sally,
Very simple. I was never aware of this disorder until recently when my daughter’s abnormal behavior led to my research. Also I produced two other children that are normal, accomplished, and a great joy in my life.
We have no way of predicting anything and given your rationale no one should have children. There are no guarantees of any kind. Its frankly a crap shoot.
I’m not so concerned about her bringing an “imperfect” child into this world, she could well bring a perfectly normal one in. My concern is that she has absolutely no capacity or desire to love or nuture a child. I would prefer she have a tubal for this reason. If she chooses to have one, there is little I can do. Like Courtney Love’s daughter the child could turn out very well adjusted.
I’m the child of a BPD father. I’m very thankful to have been born and for my life. Quite honestly, there is no other home or family I would have preferred being born into. I’m grateful for my life experiences, family, and the people in my life. My father however inflicted a great deal of emotional damage on his wife and children.
And nobody has perfect children.
I wouldn’t call what Whoopi did to her kids *embracing motherhood* either. Actually, it is good to talk about celebrities, because most of them are pro-abortion. I want to know who they are, and then I can “choose” not to watch their movies. I used to adore Susan Sarandon and Whoopi Goldberg, until I found out how pro abortion they both were. Now, I no longer watch “The View” because of Behar and Goldberg.
Francis looks like Tina Youthers [Family Ties} and Celebrity Fit Club. Cute. :)
Well, I am glad that Love gave that piss poor doctor a run for his money, but I’m hoping she didn’t “cave” the second time around. Also, I love Nicole Ritchie!!
Maybe “embracing motherhood” was the wrong term to use. :) I would hope that Courtney and Frances Bean(I love that name!)are glad they have each other. I would also like to know if Frances is happy she wasn’t aborted. I don’t know enough about Courtney’s mothering skills or lack thereof to comment.
Heather,
Speaking of Susan Sarandon I hear she plans to leave the country if McCain is elected.
Why do these Hollywood hobnobs think anybody gives a fat flying if they leave the country or not? Do they really regard this as a threat?
Others like Barbara Streisand, Michael Moore, and Alec Baldwin threateded to do the same if Bush won re-election. I doubt they’re going to give up their very humble lives of wealth and privilege.
Speaking of Nicole Ritchie, for whom I am very happy, does anyone remember when her father Lionel had that video “dancing on the ceiling?”
I was pregnant with my third child and very prone to motion sickness. I couldn’t even look at flashing lights. I loved the song but I remember watching his video and having to hold my head and close my eyes.
Mary, Madonna threatened to leave the country if Bush won. I guess she came and went a few times. She doesn’t have any problems with taking money from Americans while trying to be “British” Even her pal, Gwynn Paltrow, made a statement. “American’s are stupid.” That’s right, Gwynn. Start with yourself and your mom on that one. Why did you pimp abortions on Mother’s day? And ask your friend Madonna why she’s had 11 abortions and couldn’t figure out what safe sex was.
Carla, I was actually directing that to Elizabeth.:)
Heather 9:10am
At least she did us all a favor and made good on her threat. I believe she lives in a castle so she didn’t exactly make a huge sacrifice where her life style is concerned.
11 abortions? Where did you hear that? It sounds more like Madonna couldn’t figure out where babies came from.
I’m sure she was totally ignorant regarding contraception and it was just too expensive.(sarcasm)
Also, I have to wonder if she would want her children to see that sex book she put out.
She said it was never intended for children to see. Of course there was no possibility of any kind children would see it.
According to the New York Post, Madonna’s unauthorized biography by Barbara Victor entitled “Goddess” has shocking details about Madge. According to the book, Madonna has had 11 abortions, including one just before she met husband Guy Ritchie which Victor would only reveal is “a British man” before the release of the book.
Also revealed were that, according to a pal, Ritchie’s parents “Believed that Madonna deliberately got pregnant. This was not some teenage girl who didn’t know how to use birth control!”
Since the two have married, Ritchie’s father is said to have warmed to Madonna because of Rocco, but Lady Amber still seems to dislike her. A pal said the parents “Always envisioned he would marry someone more proper. They looked down on her because she is in show business, was 10 years older than him, and pregnant.”
Posted on Wednesday, October 10 2001 @ 00:56:35 CDT by MusicMan
Heather,
Very interesting, thank you.
Isn’t it ironic that in this day and age that a woman with such wealth, control, and power would resort to the ages old tactic of snaring a man by pregnancy? How desperate can you be?
His parents looked down on her because she was pregnant? Uh, folks, what about your son? Did you look down on him as well? Madonna didn’t conceive by herself.
I personally know of a few situations where women have deliberately become pregnant in the hope of keeping a guy in the picture. A few also ended up on welfare.
Mary, what I couldn’t understand was Madonna cycling over and over with her pregnancies. I have heard, and seen, that this is common in women who have abortions. Madonna could have had condoms made out of solid gold. It’s odd behavior. This was also a woman who begged Dennis Rodman to get her pregnant. He obliged, but it never happened. Madonna was deeply dissapointed.
“Also, I have to wonder if she would want her children to see that sex book she put out.
She said it was never intended for children to see. Of course there was no possibility of any kind children would see it.”
Mary, who would want to see it?
Mary, also Madonna’s mother passed away from breast cancer. I hope Madonna doesn’t suffer the same fate.
Madonna also aborted 2 babies from her ex husband, Sean Penn. When Sean and Robin Wright Penn had their first baby, Madonna sent him a gift with a note that read “Silly boy. I would have given you a baby.” How do I know so much about Madonna? I love to read, and I have read several books about her.
Jess 5:59am
Good point. As I recall though it was a hot seller for a while.
I’ve seen the book in question before. It’s just all about sex. What else would one expect from Madonna?
Heather,
I read that Madonna’s mother was an x-ray technician and in those days precautions against radiation were not a big concern. It was speculated that is how she may have become ill with breast cancer.
I remember the Dennis Rodman incident. There’s no accounting for taste, or lack thereof.
Mary, what can you say? I can’t figure out human nature to save my life. However, I believe that Madonna once said, “I am above the human race.” I just believe she is one mixed up cookie with too much money on her hands. Her adoption also just became final. Don’t know if you heard.
“Why didn’t you get your tubes tied? Why do you think your daughter has less right to chance bring an ‘imperfect’ child into the world than you do?”
@Sally: Personality disorders usually don’t manifest until late childhood to early adulthood. Hell- you can’t even diagnose a person with antisocial personality disorder until they’re 18. Before then it’s “conduct disorder” or something.
hahahaha, and Mary, who cares about Sue Sarandon anyway? She hasn’t made any good movies in a while. America will crack up! I’ll help her pack her bags!!
Rae, 12:06PM
Thank you for the support. You are right. Some traits may manifest early(cruelty to animals and fire starting can indicate sociopathy in young children) but its often difficult to distinguish them from otherwise normal childhood behavior. They will, as you say, for the most part begin manifesting in late childhood to early adulthood.
My daughter began showing signs of BPD in 7th grade with socializing problems. By 9th grade she was injuring herself and speaking of “feeling so empty inside”, signs of BPD.
There is a hesitation to “label” these children and young people as PDs as they may “grow out” of troublesome behavior and in fact may not be PD.
I had concerns about my youngest daughter in her teen years. She’s turned into a loving, hardworking, and wonderful adult daughter. I think she was just your classic spoiled brat.:)
“There is a hesitation to “label” these children and young people as PDs as they may “grow out” of troublesome behavior and in fact may not be PD.
I had concerns about my youngest daughter in her teen years. She’s turned into a loving, hardworking, and wonderful adult daughter. I think she was just your classic spoiled brat.:)”
Yup- because if you label them young, you put them at risk for a “self-fulfilling prophesy”. For example- you determine an 8 year old boy to be “antisocial” because he kicks other kids and doesn’t feel bad about it and he kills squirrels, and you start treating him like he’s APD and pretty soon he will start *behaving* that way because that’s what is expected of him.
Same goes for kids with ADHD in my opinion- you tell them that they have an attention problem, then pretty soon they behave in that manner because that is what is expected- the doctor/person of authority says they have ADHD, so that *must* be true.
That’s my take anyway. :)
“If my theory about Courtney being a BPD is correct (3:18PM) and I’m convinced it is, I can only hope people will find it in themselves to be more charitable toward her.
These people do nothing to make people like them, they are for the most part very difficult people to understand or deal with and very unlikable. I’m convinced one of our surgeons was so afflicted. He was despised by all of us, including me. Real charitable eh?
My father had this disorder and you literally walk on eggshells, they can explode into insane rages over the most trivial things. They can even be fairly rational for some time, giving loved ones hope there will be a change, then slip back into their irrational behavior.
They usually are drug and alcohol abusers.
They do not have the emotional wiring to be parents…”– Mary
————————————————-
Mary, I agree with you. One of my closest friends (and he was also an ex-boyfriend) had bipolar disorder. He may have even had childhood bipolar disorder, which was misdiagnosed as ADHD. Our relationship was a very difficult one (when we dated) and he was emotionally closed-off. He was irrational and erratic. His mother had left him when he was five years old (I believe she may have the same disorder) and he never really got over that (I experienced parental abandonment, too, which is probably why I always felt I understood him pretty well). He had a LOT of issues.
Later on in life, we became good friends and he told me that he wanted kids one day, but knew he wasn’t ready for them. He was smart enough to know that an addict for a dad would not be a good thing. He was the most gifted jazz saxophonist I’ve ever heard, a musical genius who composed his own music, wrote two books on philosophy, and never EVER had a conversation which only consisted of “small talk.” Every conversation with him had meaning. People with BPD are often highly gifted, highly intelligent individuals. Yet, many times, these giftings are “overlooked” because of their erratic and unpredictable behavior and they are looked down upon by those who should be encouraging them.
He became a drug abuser after high school, eventually becoming addicted to heroin.
He died two months ago because of that drug. Tomorrow would have been his 32nd birthday. :(
I would not wish to see anyone else’s life end up the same way.
There was always too much talk with him about “what he SHOULD be” or “what he COULD be” but no one ever really just tried to love him for who he was and where he was emotionally (I’d imagine that Courtney Love is much the same way–she doesn’t seem to be a very “easy” person to deal with). Justin was no easy man to deal with, either, believe me…but I greatly miss his presence in my life.
Kel,
What a tragic loss of a human life. Thankfully he had a friend like you. Because of their volatility and unpredictability, close friendships are difficult if not impossible.
Drug and alcohol addiction are not uncommon. My father destroyed himself with alcohol abuse. Also it is likely his mother was also afflicted, it is known to run in families. Don’t I know!
By the way BPD is often misdiagnosed as bipolar.
I would recommend you google BPD. You will find a wealth of information and hopefully some insight into your friend’s behavior and what his life was like for him. I’m so thankful to have an answer where my daughter is concerned, I knew something was wrong with her. I know what to expect and never to hope for. Then I realized this was my father as well. Their behavior is so similar its eerie.
You’re right that these are usually highly intelligent people. My father ran a successful business and never finished high school. I mentioned the surgeon I worked with. HIghly intelligent and an excellent surgeon, but you never knew what to expect from minute to minute. The most innocent question could send him into an insane rage.
I think Courtney Love is talented as a musician but she just can’t function very normally for very long. Its very tragic for everyone involved, especially her daughter.
Sometimes wonder if they removed certain substances in their diet if that would alleviate some symptoms. I’m thinking of sugar and gluten, to name a few. Those could really wrek havoc on one system.
Simplistic, I know.
Ok, I should have edited my post before posting:
“Sometimes I wonder…”
“wreak havoc on one’s system.”
Apologies, Mary, I thought you were referring to bipolar disorder. However, in reading about BPD, it appears to me almost like intensified bipolar disorder. Wow. That is just frightening and sad. :( I wonder how many people experience this and don’t even know that they can get help?
I believe my friend was actually bipolar, however. He had many of the symptoms…grandiose thinking, Clang associations–the association of words based on their sound (many of his song lyrics are strictly that!), disorganization, and the list goes on.
carder, it’s not so far fetched. I know that some small children have had food dyes removed from their diets and their behavioral problems have greatly improved. My friend was VERY much addicted to high sugar foods. He once ate about seven or so good-sized cookies while talking to me, without missing a beat in our short conversation. And he was thin as a rail, too.
Makes ya wonder.
Kel,
No problem. I didn’t even think of the similarities in the initials. You’ve seen these disorders do have many similarities.
Personality disorders are in fact harder to treat since people’s brains are hardwired to perceive and process info a certain way. Its like changing your personality. You are what you are. They may realize they have a problem, or they may perceive others as having the problem and themselves as “victims”.
There were times you could talk to my father and daughter and realize you were on two different levels of perception!
Bipolar is treatable, Borderline may be but it will take intense therapy and determination as well as a therapist specializing in this disorder.
My opinion for what its worth, being I have lived with borderlines, is that Courtney Love is one.
The best borderline example is “Alex” in the movie “Fatal Attraction”. By all appearances she could and did function normally. She perceived her relationship with “Dan” completely different than he did, and the movie viewers did. No matter what, he couldn’t convince her he was not in love with her. In her mind he was. Her self injury and fear of abandonment were also classic borderline behavior. She is a more extreme example, most borderlines are not so, but a good one.
MY condolences to you on the loss of your friend. Thankfully he had you.
Carla,
Your point about diet is a very valid one and I am a firm believer in looking into this with each individual child. Actress Jenny McCarthy is convinced a change in diet cured her son’t autism. I believe her.
Also, there are those who maintain that Down’s Syndrome is a metabolism disorder that an can be controlled with certain nutrional substances. These children are not born retarded, they become retarded and develop other symptoms because of this metabolic disorder, which is treatable and should be started at birth.
My apologies Carder, that post should have been addressed to you, not Carla :)
Those could really wreak havoc on one’s system. Simplistic, I know.
Yes, but right on, Carder. What some people are sensitive to can mess them up, so bad….
I have one nephew who has eosinophilic gastritis, and after years of not being able to eat almost anything without throwing up or feeling really bad, the doctors still don’t know what he can eat.
It took a long time to see that he wouldn’t just “grow out of it,” and make a correct diagnosis. This was when he was 10 or 11.
Now, he’s 13, and years of trying different medicines hasn’t helped. He gets lesions on the inside of his stomach, and after everything they are still there.
Puberty is on the way, and getting calories and nutrition into him is a big concern. His brother, younger by two years, is substantially larger.
Last week the doctors decided to start from scratch, so to speak, and he’s going to be given a formula for three months, and have nothing else.
After that, he’ll add one thing at a time to his diet, to see what he can handle and what he can’t.
A heck of a thing for a teenager….
hahahaha, and Mary, who cares about Sue Sarandon anyway? She hasn’t made any good movies in a while. America will crack up! I’ll help her pack her bags!!
Posted by: heather at May 31, 2008 12:12 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So “Speed Racer” and “Enchanted” were flops?
News to me…
Doug, one of my friends went through the same thing. They had to eliminate every food from her diet and go through them one by one. At the end of it, she was only about 100 pounds or less, but they found out she was allergic to wheat gluten and lactose intolerant.
Poor thing was so miserable for the longest time. :( I hope they find out soon what it is that’s hurting your nephew.
So “Speed Racer” and “Enchanted” were flops?
News to me…
Posted by: Laura at June 1, 2008 4:21 PM———————– Never heard of either. You should leave the blog as you were asked to do.
Laura, it’s too bad that a few people here have enabled you instead of trying to really help you. Too bad they find you and your horseshoot funny.