Truth Tour pro-life picketers arrested
Here’s how the Baltimore Sun reported the story on August 2:
Eighteen anti-abortion protesters were arrested yesterday after they marched among cars stopped at red lights in Harford County and refused to disperse, state police said.
And here’s how SocietyandReligion.com reported the incident on August 3:
Eighteen pro-lifers participating in the MD Face the Truth Tour were arrested without warning by Hartford County State Troopers in the city of Bel Air, MD on… August 1….
It was during the last tour stop of the week-long event, sponsored by Defend Life when a State Trooper named Bradley approached the group and told them to move and put away their signs or they would be arrested. In an effort to comply, group leader Jack Ames gathered the group and moved down the road, into the city limits of Bel Air….
The group stood peacefully on public property and did not “march” into the street as one news organization erroneously reported. Without warning, an estimated 20 patrol cars arrived on the scene and began arresting pro-life participants without a word. Those arrested were not told what they were being charged with, nor were they read their rights.
One of the women who participated in the tour overheard a police radio conversation where an unknown person told the troopers to make the arrests and that they would “figure out later” what charges would be filed….
Two minors in the group were soon released, but the adults were held overnight…. The last of the pro-lifers were released… August 2, at about 10:45 AM.
The group was eventually charged with loitering, failure to obey a lawful order, and disorderly conduct.
Sure hope there was video. Let this be yet another reminder that pro-lifers should ALWAYS videotape their protests.
In this photo you can see a squad car with its lights on pulled over next to the pro-lifers. They sure do not look like they’re “march[ing] among cars.” That absolutely does not sound like any pro-life protest I’ve ever attended. Our people obey the law.
[HT: budpatmac and John Jansen of Pro-Life Action League; photos courtesy of the Defend Life blog]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That looks like a divided highway – pedestrians aren’t allowed on divided highways for their own safety. If it’s a state road, a trooper has jurisdiction. End of story.
I don’t get people who protest on busy streets. I know I’m always keeping my eyes on the road, I just ignore any people with signs.
Some people have claimed to get into accidents because they were distracted by billboards. I can see how this protest could be disruptive or dangerous. Maybe they should go back to protesting on playgrounds?
Phylo is right. Pedestrians aren’t usually allowed to be standing on the sides of roads like that. I know in MA, you’re not even allowed to put up political signs on the side of divided highways anymore – not even flags – because they can be a distraction to drivers.
I’m sure we all agree in the right to protest, but a few feet away from people driving 40-60 MPH is NOT the place. Its a danger to drivers AND the protesters.
You’re right Amanda I know where I live you aren’t allowed to put up road side memorials on some roads because someone was either setting up a memorial for a car crash victim or praying at it (I forget) and they were run over and killed.
If it were prochoicers they would have been arrested too?! Yeah, right.
Yes Carla, we are exempt from the law. We control the police, industry, business and the government. That’s why you never ever see any pro-life protest. That’s why no pro-choicer has ever been arrested for something related to abortion. And you know that’s why Jill doesn’t have her own blog where she just bashes pro-choice, abortion, liberals and democrats. This is all because pro-choicers control everything.
And right now a bunch of police officers are on their way to your house to arrest you for questioning our wonderful pro-abortion government.
Jill,
The Baltimore Sun article got a few things wrong. Here is the letter I sent to the editor:
Dear Editor,
Referencing the below article, there are at least three major errors. I was there for the entire time and captured much of the event on my digital camera.
1. The people who were arrested were not marching among cars stopped at red lights; they were standing in the grass on the side of the road, each holding a pro-life sign and quietly praying.
2. We did not refuse to disperse; we took the signs down at 5:00pm.
3. We did not return to the same intersection; we moved to another location and set the signs up again.
4. At that location, a state trooper arrived and began arresting people without telling them why.
My concern is that your newspaper should be gravely concerned with this deliberate attack by the State, the trampling of MD citizens’ First Amendment rights. I would encourage you to dig deeper into this story and report it for what it really is:
+ Why is it against the law to stand on the side of the road with a sign and pray?
+ Why can MD State Troopers arrest 18 peacefully assembled people without telling them why and without reading them their rights?
+ Why can they hold them for up to 48 hours without charging them with anything?
+ By what authority can a police officer order people to leave a Maryland county without citing an offense? Is this the United States of America or the Soviet States of America?
How would your article have read if the people had been arrested for something that is politically correct these days, like gay rights?
Thank you for your time.
Joseph J. Healy
Catonsville, MD
“+ Why is it against the law to stand on the side of the road with a sign and pray?”
It’s illegal where I live to put up roadside memorials anymore because a young man was run over while praying at a memorial for someone who died in a car crash.
I know I always keep my eyes on the road when I’m driving. Some people don’t though and they get distracted and sometimes crash. What better way to protect the lives of the unborn then endangering the lives of the born!
These power hungry goons have to find something to do to justify their hefty paychecks on the taxpayer dime. What a bunch of losers, arresting pro-life people with signs.
Where is the ACLU? Are not the civil liberties of these pro-lifers being violated? When the rights of one’s political opponent are trampled upon, your own rights are themselves game for the same treatment.
Ok Jasper but if you were ever in trouble those “losers” would lay down their lives to protect you. They were just trying to protect people! Don’t you get how dangerous it is to hang around the side of a busy street trying to distract drivers?
You have no idea the hard work and dedication it takes to become a police officer. They work so hard and they’re always getting put down by people who think they know better then them. Police officers are heros, you should apologize.
This is a nice poem I think you should really read and think about:
THE GREAT POLICE OFFICER
Well, Mr. Citizen, it seems you
Jerry, Joe, etc
You’re missing a BIG important thing here…
ITS ILLEGAL to be standing on the side of a divided highway, selling cupcakes, supporting the troops, dancing a jig, or protesting abortion.
How the HECK are their civil liberties being violated? NO ONE is allowed to do anything there. It’s dangerous and distracting.
A bunch of the groups who used to hold flags up whined about it too, and the state’s response was “who will be whining when someone lets go of a sign or flag by accident and it causes a family of 4 to careen off the road and people get killed?” People also whined about not being able to put up memorials too. Pretty sure they got over it and life moved on.
You’re telling me in an entire state, the only good place to protest was the side of a main road with traffic whizzing by? Please.
You know, I still have a HUGE problem with the signs that y’all use.
One day someone is going to be shocked by one of those, wreck their car, and might die.
Jess – in MA, state troopers aren’t even allowed to help people change tires anymore.
The state police were sued by a guy who decided to drive at highway speeds all the way up to New Hampshire on a donut- which eventually burst and caused him to be injured in an accident. He blamed the trooper who put the tire on, even though the trooper testified that he told the man it was not a good spare, and he should only drive on it to the nearest gas station.
So now all they can do is make sure that you’re in a safe and well lit area while you change it yourself, or they call AAA or a roadside mechanic for you.
I just LOVE hearing people whine about state troopers, because you know, they signed up for that job JUST to be jerks to YOU… *eyeroll*
Jess,
I didn’t police officers in general are losers, of course they are not. My cousin is a police officer and my neihbor is a statie.
I was refering the bums in the photo above who have nothing else better to do than harass pro-life people.
They weren’t harassing them, don’t you realize what they were doing was endangering themselves? How can you possibly think standing where they were was safe?
Why would you call any police officer a “bum?”
Perhaps they were taking orders from their superior. Maybe they are pro-life, too, but, as part of their job, have to make sure that laws are obeyed and the busy street remains safe for drivers and their passengers.
I find it funny when people accuse police officers of having “nothing better to do” when the police officer’s job disagrees with them.
I would be more likely to call a person loitering along the side of a road a bum than a cop just out doing his job!!!
The article says that these people were charged with loitering, disorderly conduct, and failure to obey a lawful order. So, the fact that in some states it is not legal to congregate on the side of a highway is irrelevant, and if they were to change the charges to allege a violation of this statute (if it actually exists for this roadway) it would show how pretextual the arrests were in the first place.
“They weren’t harassing them, don’t you realize what they were doing was endangering themselves?”
Com’on jess, they were about 15ft from the driving lane with the breakdown lane in-between.
I bet you and Amanda would be singing another tune if these people were non-whites…. I can see it now.
Seems to me like it’s also illegal to arrest someone without charging them. Also to keep them without charging them.
Period.
I love cops, unless they’re breaking the law.
Around Colorado, most of the cops are very respectful of pro-lifers, and vice versa.
Greg
David… like…umm… failure to obey a lawful order maybe? And then going further down the street instead of moving OFF of the street which is probably what they were asked to do would be disorderly conduct.
I have never seen anyone be permitted to protest ANYTHING that close to traffic.
But sure, make this all about how the pro lifers are persecuted…lol…
“Why would you call any police officer a “bum?””
Again, not all police officers are bums, but certainly some are, not doubt. Just like the ones who put my brother in the hospital, and the one practically attacked my wife because she didn’t pull over fast enough.
So, Jasper, are you certain, without a doubt, that the officers involved in this situation are bums, as you said?
Or is it possible they are just hard-working guys out doing their job? That perhaps they were just following orders?
No matter what you’re protesting or who you are, it’s best to videotape the procedings.
I know that I, personally, would not feel safe standing that close to a busy street. My mom once had the side windows of her minivan blown out by a tire that shredded off another vehicle.
You can arrest someone and keep them 24 hours without charging them last time I checked, just FYI.
“So, Jasper, are you certain, without a doubt, that the officers involved in this situation are bums, as you said?”
Yes, they are. If they were good police officers they would leave these pro-lifers alone and would be arresting abortionists and shutting down abortion mills. You know, it called protecting the public.
I bet you and Amanda would be singing another tune if these people were non-whites…. I can see it now.
What in the HELL does that have to do with anything Amanda and Jess were saying Jasper? How do you know the people standing on the side of the road were white or non-white? Are there only white people who are pro-life? Seriously, Jasper, the things that you type sometimes. (You should really learn to use the preview button and when you do, you should wonder to yourself if what you’re about to say will make you look like an ignorant bigot) It would save us ALL a lot of time.
Dear Joe Healy,
Thank you for standing for life! I appreciate your willingness to be there, take pictures and also write an editorial. You were there being a voice for the voiceless and that means so much! Keep fighting the good fight and I will pray for you, cause YOU WERE THERE and all.
So you think good police officers should actually ignore the law and, in fact, knowingly break the law to arrest those who are not doing anything that is currently illegal? Does your cousin do this? How about your neighbor?
I guess they must be bad police officers if they don’t.
No, Jasper. That would be taking the law into their own hands, ie: illegal, ie: not a quality of a good police officer.
Sorry, that was me.
Also, Jasper, if a police officer happens across a crime, say a robbery, and he knows that the criminals happens to be pro-life, should he just “leave him alone?” Even though the pro-lifer is breaking the law? Even if the pro-lifer is putting someone’s life in danger? Their stance on abortion trumps all else?
Just wondering.
If a car broke down and had to have a tire changed or something the driver would not have enough room. The are right next to the breakdown lane. And what was the purpose of the signs? So people would notice them right? That’s a distraction!
“I bet you and Amanda would be singing another tune if these people were non-whites…. I can see it now.”
How do we know they were white? I can only see like three protesters.
And according to the article they were informed of what they were doing wrong. Oh but I forgot about the huge conspiracy against pro-lifers that everyone seems to know about : /
Yes, they are. If they were good police officers they would leave these pro-lifers alone and would be arresting abortionists and shutting down abortion mills. You know, it called protecting the public.
Mm, yeah, they’re only trying to protect the pro-lifers so they don’t get hit by cars. Do you see those guard rails next to the pro-lifers in that picture? I’m pretty sure those are for when cars go veering off the road out of control so they don’t crash into something, and that barrier helps stop the car. The pro-lifers are standing in front of them, in perfect position to be RUN OVER.
Oh, and p.s. Jasper…like I have to repeat this for you, but abortion is still legal, and we don’t live in anarchy, so cops can’t go shutting stuff down and arresting people without, oh, I don’t know, probable cause. The fact that abortions are going on isn’t probable cause either, because they’re still legal, so your whole premise for calling these cops bums is unfounded.
This is VERY silly. If one of them, God forbid, got hit by a car when a tire blew out (as Elizbeth pointed out, they are in front of the guardrail, rather than behind it, which is AGAINST the LAW), would you all be wondering why the state troopers weren’t there fast enough to help? Or someone lost control of their car on purpose to hit a pro lifer? Or why someone didn’t warn them that could happen when they’re standing next to speeding cars?
Amanda, you’ve been claiming all post there is a law in MD against picketing on divided highways. Please post the law, with source.
Others are right. These people were not arrested for that. That would have been too easy. “Failure to obey a lawful order” is about disobeying the police when they tell you to do or not do something.
Where does it say they were arrested for standing on the wrong side of the guard rail? Or on a busy highway?
Jasper what about if a cop thought Jews were evil, would he have the right to beat them up? We have laws for a reason, we have a legal system for a reason.
What’s next Jasper, making marital rape, spousal and child abuse legal again? Or just ignore laws against it? You guys are getting really scary with your complete disregard for the law.
I never said that’s what they were arrested for, I just think the police would be concerned about it, because it doesn’t really look like a safe place to me. I mean, there are better places to protest. I have held signs by busy streets before, not like on divided highways but they were busy and THAT made me nervous. Jasper’s calling these guys bums, and he doesn’t really know they are.
“What in the HELL does that have to do with anything Amanda and Jess were saying Jasper?”
Elizabeth, it was a joke, no biggie…
“So you think good police officers should actually ignore the law and, in fact, knowingly break the law to arrest those who are not doing anything that is currently illegal?”
Yes, when it comes to protecting unborn babies, yes. Screw the existing Man made law on abortion. It’s a disgrace. They should be going after abortions and there death mills.
“Also, Jasper, if a police officer happens across a crime, say a robbery, and he knows that the criminals happens to be pro-life, should he just “leave him alone?” Even though the pro-lifer is breaking the law? Even if the pro-lifer is putting someone’s life in danger? Their stance on abortion trumps all else?”
yes, I would leave him alone, chances are, since he is pro-life, is that he was just trying to steal back what got stolen from him.
“Mm, yeah, they’re only trying to protect the pro-lifers so they don’t get hit by cars. Do you see those guard rails next to the pro-lifers in that picture?”
Nah, their boss is probably a pro-abort politician and they are sucking up to him.
“Oh, and p.s. Jasper…like I have to repeat this for you, but abortion is still legal, and we don’t live in anarchy”
Well, let’s start one, let’s get some balls.
Hey guys, did ya hear that?!! As long as you’re pro-life, you can commit crimes! Yippeeeeee!
Jasper,
You didn’t answer my question about your cousin and neighbor. I take it they are bad cops? Perhaps bums?
“Yes, when it comes to protecting unborn babies, yes. Screw the existing Man made law on abortion. It’s a disgrace. They should be going after abortions and there death mills.”
The Bible says, “Suffer not a witch to live.” Should we start running around shooting people we think are witches?
“yes, I would leave him alone, chances are, since he is pro-life, is that he was just trying to steal back what got stolen from him.”
I’m picturing some toothless inbred right now running around yelling, “Dey stole our jobs!” Get a life.
Jasper go make some more Kool-Aid.
HAHAHAHA
So Jill posts about how pro lifers always obey the law (while including pictures of them breaking it), and then Jasper, in the same post, is advocating anarchy and vigilantiasm.
Perfect.
Well, I guess in Jasper’s eyes Jill hasn’t got any balls since she did say “our people obey the law.”
I don’t have any either, then. But I’m ok with that!
Oh no Amanda, they always obey “God’s Law.” And soon we’ll have an all out Holy War between the numerous Christian sects.
I hope the WBC wins. They believe they’re the only real Christians by the way.
“You didn’t answer my question about your cousin and neighbor. I take it they are bad cops? Perhaps bums?”
I don’t know if they ever arrested pro-lifers for holding a sign.
“So Jill posts about how pro lifers always obey the law (while including pictures of them breaking it), and then Jasper, in the same post, is advocating anarchy and vigilantiasm.”
Oh, relax Amanda, Bess, Jess, I was partly joking.
I still think it’s extreme to be arresting people with signs..and I’ll bet there is some agenda behind it.
So Jasper you think people should obey the law? You aren’t for anarchy? There’s ONLY Kool-Aid in the punch?
Jasper Jasper Jasper this is you:
http://funnyshirts.fusepages.com/images/uploads/KoolAidMan.gif
“I don’t get people who protest on busy streets..”
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What if it shows mutiliated cows instead of mutilated babies..would you have joined them there?
What if it shows mutiliated cows instead of mutilated babies..would you have joined them there?
I wouldn’t. I prefer not to become mutilated myself by being mowed down by a car. But that’s just me. :)
Amanda, I’m still waiting for proof of the law you espouse.
No RSD I wouldn’t endanger my life and the lives of others just so I could feel important.
Jess, I like kool-aid, especially when it’s hot out. It’s a little sweet though…
And RSD in that India thread you asked me to cite my sources and I cited a bunch of them and you never responded. We could cite some sources for this but I bet the thread would die if we infused any facts.
“I wouldn’t. I prefer not to become mutilated myself by being mowed down by a car. But that’s just me. :)
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at August 4, 2008 3:31 PM”
—————————————
Elizabeth, I wouldn’t either…I was waiting for Jess’ answer.
I’m thinking they should’ve picked their spots more carefully…knowing that the cops tend to be ordered by somebody from a liberal point of view.
I remember we couldn’t even stand at the small triangular spot/island between the entrance/ exit ramps leading into/out of Dominick’s at the Aurora PP.
“No RSD I wouldn’t endanger my life and the lives of others just so I could feel important.
Posted by: Jess at August 4, 2008 3:33 PM”
—————————————-
So…if your life was in any hint of danger while supporting your cause, you would back out?
And sorry for nto responding back on the India thread…had to leave my desk asap run after a train.
Oh Jasper I actually really like kool-aid too. I loved those little plastic bottles of it when I was a kid. Now that I’m older I get sick if I have too much sugar. Maybe just add some more water to the kool aid to mellow it a bit? Have you ever tried freezing it into popsicles?
Yes, the wife does that for the kids, they love it. It’s true though, as one gets older, the sweet, sugary stuff is too much… how about some of that kids cerel, it’s like pure sugar.
I had Cinnamon Toast Crunch for breakfast and I spent the afternoon in a coma.
Did the protesters produce a license to assemble or did they not Jill? Were teir civil rights violated or were the in contempt of civil law?
LOL Leah…
somtimes pancakes do that to me, I want to take a nap afterwards.
Lol Jasper, I’m such an old person I always eat a cup of cheerios and half a cup of bran cereal every morning. Except if I need a little pick me up then I’ll have Lucky Charms : )
RSD, I try to set a good example for my cause in every thing I do, the way I live my life. I don’t need to go running around shouting at people, they see me and how good my life is supporting animal rights and how happy I am and it does more then a lecture ever could.
“RSD, I try to set a good example for my cause in every thing I do, the way I live my life. I don’t need to go running around shouting at people, they see me and how good my life is supporting animal rights and how happy I am and it does more then a lecture ever could.
Posted by: Jess at August 4, 2008 3:54 PM”
—————————–
So, your answer is “no”….
“Walking along highway
It appears the prolifers were arrested because someone objected to their message. It is common practice in North America to arrest prolifers without telling them the charges and often without charging them. They are usually held for 24 to 48 hours. THis is a typical proabort liberal tactic because these whiny people can only tolerate those whose views match their own. The purpose is to shut down debate and to prevent people from forming an opinion which may differ from the accepted liberal position (gasp!).
RSD I’m sorry you feel you need to endanger yourself and others to make a point.
The bill against loitering and standing alongside highways in Haford county is HB 643.
http://mlis.state.md.us/2007RS/fnotes/bil_0003/hb0643.pdf
“It appears the prolifers were arrested because someone objected to their message. ”
Umm… Nope. It appears they were arrested because they quite clearly broke the law.
Normally, notice is required prior to arrest. If the jurisdiction is the state highway, then the state troopers have jurisdiction.
Regardless of the actual violation, the overnight incarceration was “over the top.P A simple citation and promise to appear would have sufficed.
That is, unless they were not sure of what to charge them, which might explain the over night stay and then release.
Amanda,
I read through that. The road that they were protesting on would not be considered a highway or an access road, I believe. It looks more like a country road.
“I wouldn’t. I prefer not to become mutilated myself by being mowed down by a car. But that’s just me. :)”
They are about 15-20 feet away from the driving lane….what is that, about a 35-40 mph road, if that.
LOL! How many “country roads” do you know of that have 2 divided lanes, a full shoulder, and guardrails and would be under state troopers jurisdiction?
Amanda: then why not charge them?
Uh Oh Jasper – here come those pesky facts again:
“Motorists called police about 4:30 p.m. to report that 30 to 50 people holding large signs and pictures were walking in traffic at an intersection on Route 24 just north of Interstate 95. Two troopers responding to the calls asked the protesters to disperse after they could not produce a permit to demonstrate, state police spokesman Greg Shipley said.
An hour later, 20 members of the same group marched again at the intersection, Shipley said.
Sixteen adults and two juveniles were arrested. Shipley said they were charged with disorderly conduct, failure to obey a lawful order and willfully obstructing the flow of traffic. ”
Route 24:
“Maryland Route 24 is a highway in central Maryland.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Route_24
Thank you and goodnight.
Is thinking you are right about everything your full time job, Amanda? Sheesh.
I wouldn’t call a highway. Usually highways don’t have street lights on them, like that one has.
Jasper,
There are plenty of highways in my area that do, in spots, have traffic signals. Especially where they pass through or near towns that have sprung up in more recent years.
I don’t believe it. It was probably some pro-abort like who called the police and hyped the story. Look at protestors, they far away from the road.
Good for you Amanda, unborn babies still to die another day, don’t worry.
It’s a mad, mad world.
Bee,
what do the cops do if somebody is walking on those roads? arrest them?
I walked on roads like that when i was a kid and never got arrested.
Hey Midnite,
what’s up, haven’t heard from you in a while.
”
RSD I’m sorry you feel you need to endanger yourself and others to make a point.
Posted by: Jess at August 4, 2008 4:00 PM”
—————————-
I am sorry too for the causes you support from the safety of your PC.
Hey People,
You can legally rip an unborn childs head off (like that little boy in the picture the protesters are holding), but it’s illegal to stand 15 feet away from the driving lane and hold a picture on a small highway, so you or the motorist don’t get hurt.
We are living in the End times and I will predict that B.Hussian Obama gets elected. This country has lost it.
For what it’s worth, according to the sha.document link above:
by definition, a “street is a highway” and a “road is a highway”. That leaves room for interpretation. By the way, generally if a road is not within a town or city limits, it is under the jurisdiction of the State Police, at least in my state (not MD) no matter what type of road it is. I’m not sure why the State Police would have had jurisdiction over the Pro-life protesters after they had moved into the city limits of Bel Air, MD.
Times are different, Jasper. Remember when we were kids and it was not uncommon to see hitch hikers along roads like that as well? I haven’t seen a hitch hiker in years.
I do not live in MD. In the area I live I have seen people arrested for panhandling alongside roads less busy than that. I have also seen people get picked up by the police for walking along the expressway. Just walking.
I’m sorry, but the law is the law. People called the police and complained. The police did their job. Weather the police officer agrees with a particular law or not he took an OATH to uphold it.
Bee, I have seen people arrested for panhandling alongside roads less busy than that.
Keep in mind, sometimes panhandlers are glad to be arrested because they’ll have a nice warm bed to sleep in when the alternative is sleeping under a bridge in a cardboard box.
Is the Truth Tour (or similar protesting groups) insured if, God forbid, an accident occurs and one of the protesters or motorists is injured? Just wondering…
Oh, I know, Janet. I volunteer at a local homeless shelter program. Sometimes I have even called the police myself on certain homeless panhandlers when I was worried about their health or safety, to get them off the road.
Honestly, Jasper, I have never seen a pedestrian walking as close to the highways as those protestors are.
“Times are different, Jasper. Remember when we were kids and it was not uncommon to see hitch hikers along roads like that as well? I haven’t seen a hitch hiker in years.”
Yea, I’ll say. I remember when I was 5 and my older sister was 16 we hitch hiked into Boston (about 20 miles) one day. She didn’t tell my Mom… but things like that went on in those days
Hmmm…I remember that Joe Scheidler was also harrased by the cops for standing on a public sidewalk w/ a pic…BUT a rep from Thomas More talked to the cops from a cell phone and they backed down.
Does this group have access to a pro-life legal group?
“Honestly, Jasper, I have never seen a pedestrian walking as close to the highways as those protestors are.”
where would you like them to stand? back in the woods, 75 feet away?
Just on the other side of the guard rails! If a road is busy enough to warrant guard rails like that I don’t think curbside is safe for any sort of pedestrian or protestor.
And I can’t believe you and your sister hitch hiked like that! What did you guys do in Boston? I never tried it, even “back in the day.” Too chicken! My friend did, though, all the time, and by herself. She’s lucky nothing really horrible ever happened to her.
There might be a 40 foot drop on the other side of the guardrail! If traffic was extremely dangerous, I think a guard rail would be right next to the shoulder as well. To me, it doesn’t look like a very dangerous area in which to protest… speed limit maybe 40-50mph? The shoulder is quite wide.
Bee, It’s great to hear that you volunteer at a homeless shelter. Way to go!
“And I can’t believe you and your sister hitch hiked like that! What did you guys do in Boston?”
oh, I think we just walked around Boston Common, got an ice-cream, etc. Looking back at it, yea a little crazy. We still talk about that 35 years later, I’m 40 and my sister is 51.
I guess I feel that a large, organized protest like the Truth Tour should make sure that they have “all their ducks in a row,” so to speak, before beginning. Make sure they have all necessary permits and that protesting is legal at all their planned locations. Perhaps call the police departments ahead of time to make sure everything is A-OK before proceeding. In his letter to the newspaper, Mr. Healy asks WHY it is illegal to stand along side a road and pray with a sign. He does not argue that it is legal.
I understand being so passionate about something that you are willing to take risks and even break laws to make your feelings known. But I think that when people break laws, regardless of how unjust they may feel a law is, they need to be prepared to face the consequences. If the protesters did, in fact, disobey a lawful order, then the police had a right to take action.
Jasper, I know I jumped all over your remarks about the police being bums. My brother is a police officer and I know he would never arrest anyone simply because he disagreed with them or had a problem with them personally. He’s a great guy and I think the two of you would get along pretty well, actually. The two of you probably have more in common than either of you do with me!
Well Jill, you asked for the law and Amanda and Bee did your research for you. And you claim you are a JOURNALIST? But no response from you after they get the info???
Frankly, if the protestors want to endanger themselves, well, as a prochoicer, I’d have to say it’s their choice, even while acknowledging that the officers are doing their duty to protect them from self-endangerment.
However, it isn’t just the protestors who would be in danger. A car swerving to avoid them, or being distracted by them could easily careen into another lane, endangering the original driver and the drivers/passengers they impede.
The appropriate response from pro-lifers would have been: We agree with the message but ask that pro-lifers not endanger other innocent lives with actions like this.
The response so far has done nothing but prove that pro-lifers, as charged, are hypocritical about which lives have value.
Jasper my Dad and his friends worked at a boy scout camp when they were teens. On the weekends they went to the local town center and bought penny candy or whatever and they would hitch a ride home at night. One night one of the boys got into a truck with a real perv who tried to rape him. Luckily the boy managed to escape and hide in a cemetary till morning.
You see things were different back 30 years or so ago. What was fine and legal then might not be now.
My Dad always tells that story at parties. He’s so weird.
I missed you too Midnite!!!! Welcome back and make yourself at home!!
@Bee and Jasper: I used to ride my bike on the highway, of course this was in South Dakota and there it’s legal to bike on the shoulders of a highway.
Just sayin’. :)
And RSD like I said my causes are part of who I am. I had a very good discussion on the merits of vegetarianism at my cousins wedding Saturday. (Pictures coming soon for all my facebook friends!)
Man Phylosopher,
Chill…Jill usually checks in early during the day. Sheesh, give her a chance. You disappear for weeks at a time and no ones ever accused you a running away…
I ran away mk, but then I turned around and ran right back. I do that a lot. I need new shoes before the fall season starts.
Jess,
You are such a nut! I love you.
Okay,
Confession time…you all know about my crazy past…hard to tell if I make it sound better or worse than it is…BUT,
I hitchhiked once. From Chicago to LA…then lived with bikers we met on a beach in Carpenteria.
But I’ll deny it if you ever tell anyone…
It’s hard for me to picture you as crazy mk. But I do love to hear your stories. One day you’ll make a great senior citizen! You should write a book.
MK: you haven’t seen bikers until you come to Port Dover, Ontario on Friday the 13th! There are thousands upon thousands! They come from everywhere including the US and across Canada.
Jess: ah shoe shopping! A woman can never have too many shoes…..
mk @7:36,
Too funny! I’m so glad you survived your adventure. :)
The appropriate response from pro-lifers would have been: We agree with the message but ask that pro-lifers not endanger other innocent lives with actions like this.
The response so far has done nothing but prove that pro-lifers, as charged, are hypocritical about which lives have value.
Posted by: phylosopher at August 4, 2008 6:57 PM
….And then the Pro-lifers would direct the same message to Pro-choicers, they would comply, abortion would end and all would be well with the world.
Sounds good to me. When do we start?
hey Janet, I’m with you @ 8:11pm
Patricia, OK then, let’s go!!!
Patricia,
MK: you haven’t seen bikers until you come to Port Dover, Ontario on Friday the 13th! There are thousands upon thousands! They come from everywhere including the US and across Canada.
That’s probably true. We did live in a tent right on the oil peers tho. As scary as those bikers were, I’ve never felt safer. We were on their “side” and thus under their protection. I forget the name of their gang tho…might know it if I saw it…this was like, 30 some years ago!
I do remember, when we finally got to California, everyone saying “ARE YOU GUYS NUTS? DON’T YOU KNOW THE HILLSIDE STRANGLER IS OUT THERE?????”
Ok philosopher,
The loitering law on their books is unconstitutional. Please see this decision by the Supreme Court which ruled that the police do not have the right to ask people to disperse when it
MK,
You really are my mother. I mean, really. My mom was a badass too back in the day, and did crazy stuff all the time. No hitchhiking to LA, though. That I know of. You guys could share crazy stories I bet!
Congradulations, Jasper.
“Yes, when it comes to protecting unborn babies, yes. Screw the existing Man made law on abortion. It’s a disgrace. They should be going after abortions and there death mills.”
You now know the mentality that leads to suicide bombing and inspires people to fly airplanes into buildings in hopes of killing large numbers of people.
To them, they were following God’s proclamations and those who died were either ignorant of or denied God and his law. Thus, they deserved to die.
You are no less of an extremist than those men on that fateful day and your reasoning could well be there own.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/03/MNMI124HSI.DTL&tsp=1
When taking the law into your own hands goes wrong.
Seriously, this argument is trivial in comparison.
Ok philosopher,
The loitering law on their books is unconstitutional. Please see this decision by the Supreme Court which ruled that the police do not have the right to ask people to disperse when it
Man Phylosopher,
Chill…Jill usually checks in early during the day. Sheesh, give her a chance. You disappear for weeks at a time and no ones ever accused you a running away…
Posted by: mk at August 4, 2008 7:25 PM
Man? Careful dear, your seventies roots are showing ;-)
So… I should apologize for having a life?
My point was that Jill likes to claim she’s a journalist, and gushes whenever she’s allowed into a press box, but then doesn’t do any of the work required to hold the title. It took little time from amateur posters to 1) study the photo 2) find the law. If she had acted like a responsible journalist she would have quickly doen these things herself and realized that this wasn’t a story at best, or at worst, that it put anti-choicers in a not great light.
Instead, Jill just proved again that she isn’t really a journalist at all, but just another mouthpiece pushing an extremist conservative agenda.
above ’twas moi.
“So… I should apologize for having a life?”
Dance with me phylosopher, dance the dance of LIFE!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6088354518750600475&q=dance+the+dance+of+life+family+guy%5C&ei=UuCXSNjCA4TerQLmjOD2BQ&hl=en
Yeah I’m always afraid after I leave someone will ask me a good question and I won’t be here to answer it.
“And RSD like I said my causes are part of who I am. I had a very good discussion on the merits of vegetarianism at my cousins wedding Saturday. (Pictures coming soon for all my facebook friends!)
Posted by: Jess at August 4, 2008 7:03 PM”
—————————
Sure, Jess…you talk the talk but can’t walk the walk..as the saying goes…
When was the last time you held up a sign or attended a protest rally?
Janet –
full time job? haha no… it took me about 2 whole minutes of googling to find out that
1. they were on a highway
and
2. standing on the side of a highway is illegal in Maryland
End of story.
Philosopher,
You
I have read this report on several sites. What is wrong with self proclaimed christians having to follow the same laws as all other persons?
Persecution and an attack on free speech was an event such as Kent State. This has nothing to do with free speech. This has to do with one group of folk who think their personal religious choice puts them above the law.
This is a bunch of spoiled brats whining about not getting to do what they want when they want and where they want.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0ZbYkPRRHY&feature=related
Here’s a video back at ya, Jess. Enjoy!
MK: actually the bikers are okay – just too many of them!
I can’t help but wonder though if these people on the side of the road had signs that supported gay marriage if arrests would have been made. It would be an experiment worth repeating, IMO, just to determine if preferential treatment were given.
From the unbiaed Baltimore paper article:
Sixteen adults and two juveniles were arrested. Shipley said they were charged with disorderly conduct, failure to obey a lawful order and willfully obstructing the flow of traffic.
Charles, just noticed that your first premise is irrelevant too, as this article does not state they were charged with loitering.
Look, they endangered themselves, including two juveniles (wonder if they were transported across statelines by others besides their parents?), they endangered motorists on the road. They were told to move, they regrouped nearby, thinking to skirt the law because they presumed (wrongly) a state trooper wouldn’t have jurisdiction in town on the same road thus they disobeyed the lawful order, then, my guess is they tried to argue with the trooper, and even if they didn’t, the regrouping itself was disorderly conduct.
It’ll be interesting to see if anyone tries to pursue this. I think it’ll be a waste of time if they do.
oops above, again, me.
Patricia, while an interesting experiment, I don’t think you’d find willing participants. Gay marriage advocates have a marriage wish, not a death wish.
Patricia
As someone who does demonstrate in support of gay marriage, after two members of my church were killed a few years ago when they were waiting for help on a highway shoulder after their car broke down (a truck swerved to avoid a car that cut him off, hit them, and killed them both), I wouldn’t be stupid enough to protest ANYTHING on the side of a highway. Not even because its against the law, but because I don’t think holding a sign up in front of maybe a few more people than would see it on a normal town road is worth risking my life for.
Amanda, 3:58p: The law you refer to, per your quote, is for a “controlled access highway,” i.e., interstate sort of highway with access only every several miles.
This was not that sort of highway.
I spoke with one of the arrestees, Jack Ames, this morning.
Other points:
~ These same people picketed at the same location a year ago, August 3, 2007, to be exact, with no problem.
~ Three years ago they were picketing at the same location only in the meridian and were told to move to the side of the road and they’d be fine.
~ The only question the police asked before arresting was, “Where’s your permit?” indicating he thought they could have stood there with the proper permit.
Jill, real journalists question both sides to get both sides of the story.
RSD,
There are a LOT of other ways to “walk the walk” in terms of helping your cause. Jess does one of them by living the lifestyle of what she believes in. She doesn’t approve of killing animals to eat them so SHE DOESN’T EAT THEM. That’s really pretty rude of your to assert that because somebody doesn’t spend their whole life our there protesting or attending rallies that they aren’t as committed as people who do. Some of us have different priorities or time constraints that don’t allow us to do such a thing, even though we would want to.
… so where was their permit? Oh they didn’t have one! So either way (whether or not it was legal for them to be standing on the side of a highway), their arrest was justified when they CHOSE not to heed the warning and get off the road.
Past events that they got away with bear no relevance to what they were arrested for. Thats like getting pulled over for speeding and saying “but I was going even faster on this same road yesterday and I didn’t get in trouble!”
Philosopher,
Ninja was the one that posted the loitering bill. Jill re-posted the statement that they were charged with
Elizabeth, sorry if you think I was rude but from the way Jess’ comments about protecting “cows” you would think she was willing to do the ultimate sacrifice for them.
To each his/her own as you mentioned…
Why would I kill myself for animal rights RSD? What do you think that would accomplish?
Fine RSD you stop eating meat for 13 years and almost every day have someone ask “You don’t eat meat? What’s wrong with you?” My family doesn’t get it, strangers don’t get it. I mean half the country is pro-life, how many people are vegetarian? Seriously almost every day I get crap from someone, but yeah I guess I’m just lazy for not protesting.
And RSD according to most unsolicited advice I receive I’m going to die and soon because a person can’t live unless they eat meat. So I am making the ultimate sacrifice.
You do what you have to do Jess…and good luck to you on that.
So they didn’t have a permit.
Does the punishment fit the crime???
First rule Chuck, use the original source – be accurate. If Jill were a real journalist, she would have noticed the charges discrepancy in the two versions – then she would have verified which was correct by, gasp, phoning the Hartford or Bel Air police or prosecutor. But that would require actually doing some work instead of reposting rumors.
Bye again mk.
Again I ask, what is the LEGAL basis for charging any of these people?
Phylosopher,
Lol…
“Walking along highway
If Jill were a real journalist, she would have noticed the charges discrepancy in the two versions – then she would have verified which was correct by, gasp, phoning the Hartford or Bel Air police or prosecutor. But that would require actually doing some work instead of reposting rumors.
Bye again mk.
Posted by: phylosopher at August 5, 2008 12:59 PM
She does seem to accept the version of the truth that she wants to. Remember when she called the PP clinic in South Dakota and assumed the person there was lying because she said they were still doing abortions and Jill’s other source said that wasn’t true.
Janet – full time job? haha no… it took me about 2 whole minutes of googling to find out that
Amanda, Are you talking to me? I don’t know what you are referring to.
She does seem to accept the version of the truth that she wants to. Remember when she called the PP clinic in South Dakota and assumed the person there was lying because she said they were still doing abortions and Jill’s other source said that wasn’t true.
Posted by: Hal at August 5, 2008 1:50 PM
I’m having trouble finding a follow-up to that story… I wonder what ever happened. By the way, if I had to trust a PP employee or a 4 year-old, I’d pick the four year old. But that’s just me.
It’s hard to run across such a self proclaimed martyr as Jess. Whoa! Such sacrifice is unbelievable. She/he considers her/himself then in a higher moral plane than Jesus!
Looks like most commenters here are bent on proving their own personal points and “ourperforming” someone else when all the points are added up at the end! Meanwhile the world grows more evil and suicidal every moment – killing its very own and thus every living human who agrees with it or argues for it, even if out of fear or just embarrassment, cowardly adds to the atmosphere of death even for him/herself. They’ll attempt to assuage their guilt by being noticeably overly specifically “kind” to some other thing in the atmosphere and expect that to somehow balance the scales to the much graver scourge to human life. It doesn’t!
Whether a protest steps on the toes of civility and its own “laws of protection” is not the elephant in the living room here – that unseen and wishing away of WHAT AND WHO is being protested against is what matters…and that goes for all…civil “protectors” et al. When will men, no matter the uniform worn, become real men? And the same for women. After all, in the end, the ones they ultimately are protecting are themselves…since they arrived in this world of “protection” the very same way! And now that the pendulum has swung so far in the wrong direction, they are hopefully beginning to see that. Bad laws create more bad laws until, as we are now seeing, children – in the world – are feeling that result from those killed in the darkness of “protected” “safe” zones of secrecy.
CK: 2:27: When will men, no matter the uniform worn, become real men? And the same for women. After all, in the end, the ones they ultimately are protecting are themselves…since they arrived in this world of “protection” the very same way!
Amen. Sadly, there are those here who don’t value human life enough to agree with you – even when that life is their own.
“It’s hard to run across such a self proclaimed martyr as Jess. Whoa! Such sacrifice is unbelievable. She/he considers her/himself then in a higher moral plane than Jesus!”
LOL – what comments from Jess have you been reading? Certainly not any of the ones on this blog…
I wonder if the comments on this thread would be the same if the tables werer turned, i.e. pro-deathers protesting the overturning of Roe v. Wade?
Seems like when pro-deathers have the legal system on their side they turn all pious, etc. However, they become mad dogs when things don’t go their way.
Michael:
Pro-aborts aren’t interested in facts as I am sure you are finding out.
~ The only question the police asked before arresting was, “Where’s your permit?” indicating he thought they could have stood there with the proper permit.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at August 5, 2008 10:31 AM
………………………………………………..
When unable to produce the needed permit they were asked to disperse which they did. Then a portion of the protesters decided to continue knowing full well that there might be consequences. They got themselves arrested. Too bad the National Guard wasn’t called out. What a sensationalistic story that would have been!
Does that behavior warrant arrest and a night in jail???
Seriously.
HisMan: The freedom to murder is no freedom at all, rather, it is the utmost example of spiritual bondage.
So what? You’ve no proof of your “murder” in the first place.
Education is the key. Our leaders leadership is a reflection of our country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/index.htm
You pro-aborts are no different then the psycho who chopped off the sleeping guys head on a Greyhound bus. How is that any sicker that delivering a baby to her shoulders and sliding a scissors up her spine and sticking it in her head and then opening it wide and pulling it out so that you can suck her brains out and crush her skull so that you can deliver the baby. You all fought for your partial-birth abortion sacrament until thank God some sanity came to the US Supreme Court and the PBA ban was upheld or you’d still be joining the Obama’s in fund-raisers for your sacrament. You are a sick bunch and I really don’t know how you can live with yourselves. I know you can’t live in civilization and hold your views.
Phylosopher. So far you have said Jill is not a real journalist a handful of times on this blogline. Maybe you could do us all a favor and leave for another two week break.
Oh yeah liberals, you cshould have the choice to puncture a babies skull with a scissors but you can’t eat fast food in California. especially cooked in trans-fat. Holy sh!t are they nuts!!
HisMan: The freedom to murder is no freedom at all, rather, it is the utmost example of spiritual bondage.
So what? You’ve no proof of your “murder” in the first place.
Posted by: Doug at August 5, 2008 8:42 PM
Doug,
PBA is now murder. Does that make Barack and his wife Michelle non-murderers cause they supported killing babies only until it was outlawed? When they held fund-raisers for PBA last year before the PBA ban was upheld as law were they an example of people expressing their freedom or of the utmost form of spiritual bondage?
You’ve no proof of your “murder” in the first place.
You have no proof that it was not a murder either.
Amanda and Jess, your concern for the welfare of the protesters is underwhelming
“Truthseeker”, PBA is illegal but I’m pretty sure it’s not murder.
When unable to produce the needed permit they were asked to disperse which they did. Then a portion of the protesters decided to continue knowing full well that there might be consequences. They got themselves arrested. Too bad the National Guard wasn’t called out. What a sensationalistic story that would have been!
Posted by: Sally at August 5, 2008 6:15 PM
Yes, well that would have been THE typical over-reaction to a prolife demonstration. Just like when SWAT teams and men in black swarmed all over the University of Western Ontario campus 3 years ago for the granting of Dr. Morgentaler’s honorary LLB degree (hysterical laughing). Of course prolifers in their typical violent way, spent the day kneeling and praying. Very, very violent…
Yes – violent like this Patricia:
Unitarian church still a sanctuary
August 3, 2008
My family attends a Unitarian Universalist church that preaches tolerance and the inherent dignity and worth of all human beings (“Hatred could be shooting motive,” July 29). So how do I explain to my children that Jim D. Adkisson entered a Unitarian church in Tennessee and killed two people and injured others because of the church’s “liberal teachings” and a “belief that all liberals should be killed,” as a police report on the shooting states?
Do I tell my son that this man is mentally ill or a product of a society that includes religions that are divisive rather than inclusive?
In searching for answers in the blogosphere, it seems there is plenty of blame being thrown about for the shooting.
Some on the left are blaming “take a baseball bat to a liberal” Ann Coulter and other right-wingers for inciting such tragedies.
Some on the right are saying that this is not terrorism, just evil, and evil happens, so get over it.
All I know is that when my son heard about this shooting, he said we should lock the doors to our church once everyone gets inside.
If that isn’t feeling terrorized, I don’t know what is.
But we won’t lock our doors, and we will still welcome everyone.
My son will see that an inclusive community must and will continue to flourish, and that hate speech of any kind has no place in our church.
Susan A. Seim
Lutherville
Hmm, I guess I missed the part of that letter where it said the person who killed the people in the church was a pro-lifer.
Would you classify pro-choice as a (mostly) liberal or conservative position?
I’ve also seen anti-gay rhetoric on this board, and condemnation of Obama, the liberal candidate, because he holds liberal views. Also disparaging remarks about Unitarians.
What I’ve not seen a lot of is particular condemnation of those, like Coulter, urging such violence – and there has even been support of those who commit violence. There’s wider support for intolerance of different opinion, which, as this letter points out, fosters violence.
“Truthseeker”, PBA is illegal but I’m pretty sure it’s not murder.
Then, what about it makes it “illegal”?
It may not as yet be specifically classified as “murder”, but that is only due to the ramifications to all abortions if that cat was let out of the bag.
Amanda, so what are you “laughing out loud” about?
As I see it one’s particular preference for celery on one’s menu does not call for any self celebration of sacrifice…or “teaching others through one’s own life”!! So what. And to use that to attempt to display some way to fill up the void of a suicidal mentality of a culture of death demonstrates only the person’s inability to discern/detect serious moral imbalances.
Nothing to laugh about…either in such an individual or in one who points out the discrepancies.
PBA is now murder.
Truthseeker, I don’t think you’re correct there. ??
…..
Does that make Barack and his wife Michelle non-murderers cause they supported killing babies only until it was outlawed?
Good grief – now that is just silly.
…..
When they held fund-raisers for PBA last year before the PBA ban was upheld as law were they an example of people expressing their freedom or of the utmost form of spiritual bondage?
There are some situations where D & X abortions present the least risk to the woman, and that’s why many doctors and some medical societies were against the ban.
“You’ve no proof of your “murder” in the first place.”
Janet: You have no proof that it was not a murder either.
Heh – Janet, the same as you have no proof that Santa Claus isn’t going to come down tomorrow and teach us all to do the Peppermint Twist.
Amanda may be a whiner,
but she is certainly not a lawyer.
And jamming a scissors into a baby’s head as it is being delivered in the birth canal is murder.
God will judge everyone by their deeds when they die and face Him.
To all you pro-choicers, pro-aborts, I wouldn’t be too sure of your position of defending the killing of babies in their mothers’ wombs. You will have to face your Creator someday.
Opinionated, empirically prove there is a God.
Then, maybe just then, your delusional rantings will make me give a crap.
PBA is now murder.
Truthseeker, I don’t think you’re correct there. ??
Posted by: Doug at August 6, 2008 4:46 PM
Does that make Barack and his wife Michelle non-murderers cause they supported killing babies only until it was outlawed?
Good grief – now that is just silly.
o.k. then Doug, how about conspirators to commit murder for influence and monetary gain…like mob boses get charged with.
“delusional rantings”…
Yes, at the least.
It may not as yet be specifically classified as “murder”, but that is only due to the ramifications to all abortions if that cat was let out of the bag.
Posted by: CK at August 6, 2008 12:22 PM
Let the cat out.
And jamming a scissors into a baby’s head as it is being delivered in the birth canal is murder.
Posted by: Opinionated at August 6, 2008 4:59 PM
Only if your not a sociopathic killer.
Does that make Barack and his wife Michelle non-murderers cause they supported killing babies only until it was outlawed?
“Good grief – now that is just silly.”
o.k. then Doug, how about conspirators to commit murder for influence and monetary gain…like mob boses get charged with.
(heh) same song, second verse.
What makes a murder Doug.
Since PBA is illegal, and it kills another person, then why do you say that would not be murder?
SoMG said the same thing Doug. That PBA would not be considered to be murder. I don’t get it. Explain your rationale. To me it is also pre-meditated so it would be first degree murder wouldn’t it?
Opinionated, empirically prove there is a God.
Then, maybe just then, your delusional rantings will make me give a crap.
Posted by: Rae at August 6, 2008 5:55 PM
‘The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”‘ Psalm 14:1
If you do not come to the basic understanding and faith that there is a God who created all that exists, (who is the prime mover) before you die, then you will come to know that He does exist when you have died and your soul must give an accounting to Him of all your deeds.
Faith in God is a no-lose proposition. If there is no God, then you have lost nothing. But if He does indeed exist, then you have all to gain, if you humbly acknowledge your own nothingness before Him, and seek Him with a sincere heart and mind.
Try to have an open mind.
Opinionated,
“Faith in God is a no-lose proposition.”
This statement is absolutely not true. Your use of logic here fails for several reasons.
1. You assume that someone can force themselves to genuinely believe in something.
2. That this forced faith comes at no cost.
3. Which god?
A., @11:37:
“….absolutely not true.” Those are pretty strong words, isn’t this your own personal truth?
Janet,
” Those are pretty strong words, isn’t this your own personal truth?”
Not at all, because the logic behind this statement is faulty.
A.
Opinionated @ 2:00 is choosing to believe, not forcing herself. That’s your misinterpretation and probably why you don’t believe.
How do you know faith is not a no-lose proposition if you admit you have no faith yourself?
As O. said, try again to have an open mind. Your subjective opinions of truth are getting in the way of your understanding of a believer’s perspective. Belief in God is quite logical to me. Does it really matter which god? Do you have a preference?
You make too many assumptions in the name of logic for someone who thinks much of truth is based on subjective opinion, IMHO.
Janet,
“Opinionated @ 2:00 is choosing to believe, not forcing herself. That’s your misinterpretation and probably why you don’t believe.”
I assure you, it is no misinterpretation. I never asserted that all faith was forced.
“How do you know faith is not a no-lose proposition if you admit you have no faith yourself?”
Opinionated is using a fallacious argument to assert that faith in God is safer for everyone, not just for him/her. I forget the name of it, but it’s related to the prisoner’s dilemma and attempts to determine the most logical course of outcomes assuming certain basic criteria for each decision. I will try to illustrate below.
Belief in God No Belief in God
Real heaven hell
Not Real nothing happens nothing happens
That’s a simplification, but the basics are there.
This argument is quite specific to the Christian religion.
It fails for a number of reasons.
The first of these, as I alluded to above, is that it assumes everyone who does not currently have faith in God can will themselves to have genuine faith. Faith does not work in this manner; if it is genuine, it is there and if it is forced, it is not.
The second reason that it fails is that it assumes there is no cost for a nonbeliever to attempt to force a belief. This is also not absolutely true–if nothing else, attempting to force a belief is not healthy for the individual in question. You also have to take into account missed opportunities because of hours spent in church and such.
The third logical fallacy occurs because of this argument’s Christian-centered focus. It asserts that belief in the Christian God is safest because there is no cost if is wrong (not necessarily true) and that one loses everything if it is true and he/she chose not to believe.
What if the Christian view of God is wrong? What if there are others gods out there–perhaps jealous gods who would prefer one to not believe as opposed to falsely worship a nonexistent other?
“Does it really matter which god? Do you have a preference?”
No, but I am familiar with the argument that O. is attempting to use and it is a poor one.
“You make too many assumptions in the name of logic for someone who thinks much of truth is based on subjective opinion, IMHO.”
Because I’m familiar with the argument that O was citing and aware of its fallacious assumptions. Based on your responses, I can only guess that you have no familiarity with this argument.
The problem lies not with what I believe, but that neither you nor O. properly understand the implications of the argument that you are making.
A,
“I forget the name of it, but it’s related to the prisoner’s dilemma and attempts to determine the most logical course of outcomes assuming certain basic criteria for each decision.”
It’s called Pascal’s Wager.
Yeah, one really doesn’t want to use Pascal’s wager “in a vacuum.” It is more for someone who is struggling and finds roughly the same amount of evidence for atheism and (as A rightly pointed out) Christianity, or at least the Christian understanding of hoe God works. Plus, as A also correctly pointed out, it would be difficult for many people even if they are at the described stage and buy into Pascal’s wager to will themselves to belief in God.
A. and Bobby,
I am probably missing the argument you are making. Sorry. My problem is I don’t have a perspective outside of having faith. I would say that faith is a gift from God, some are born with it and others are not. Asking God to reveal Himself to you (impersonal you) is a good place to start the search for faith. I don’t know if that makes any sense. It’s of course your choice, I wouldn’t “force” it (that word “force” doesn’t even come to mind when talking about faith which is why I questioned it earlier – faith is a gift from God that must be accepted, not something that can ever be forced on someone).
Having said that, I understand where you, a non-believer is coming from. I’m not sure what to think of this comment (by Opinionated) myself: If you do not come to the basic understanding and faith that there is a God who created all that exists, (who is the prime mover) before you die, then you will come to know that He does exist when you have died and your soul must give an accounting to Him of all your deeds.
What makes a murder Doug. Since PBA is illegal, and it kills another person, then why do you say that would not be murder
Truthseeker, D & X abortion being illegal does not mean that personhood is attributed to the unborn. Your premise is wrong.
Truthseeker: SoMG said the same thing Doug. That PBA would not be considered to be murder. I don’t get it. Explain your rationale. To me it is also pre-meditated so it would be first degree murder wouldn’t it?
No. Just as the procedure of abortion being illegal in most states from sometime in the 1800’s to the 1970’s didn’t mean it was “murder;” so does the prohibition of a certain abortion procedure not mean that it is held to be murder.
Doug @ 8:47,
Any woman who killed her baby after it was born or attempted an abortion would have been sent to jail or the loony bin in the 1800’s.
Janet, after birth wasn’t the deal – nobody’s arguing about that. It was in the 1800’s that abortion began to become illegal on a state-by state basis, rather than merely having the extention of English common law (abortion okay to quickening).
I think it was 1820 or so when the first state got anti-abortion legislation, and by the Civil War (I think) all or almost all states had laws against abortion.
So, prior to the laws being passed, no “jail” or “loony bin” and even after the laws’ passage there was still the “going abroad” or “going to a sanitarium” or “to visit Aunt Millie,” etc., where many women and girls had abortion, tacitly or openly permitted.