Abortion chain owner’s family died in MT cemetery plane crash – near Tomb of the Unborn
From Christian Newswire this afternoon, by pro-life activist and writer Gingi Edmonds:
Some of you may have seen the major news story of the private plane that crashed into a Montana cemetery, killing 7 children and 7 adults.
But what the news sources fail to mention is… the [cemetery] contains… the Tomb of the Unborn… erected as a dedication to all babies who have died because of abortion.
What else is the mainstream news not telling you? The family who died in the crash near the location of the abortion victim’s memorial, is the family of Irving ‘Bud‘ Feldkamp, owner of the largest for-profit abortion chain in the nation….
Family Planning Associates was purchased 4 years ago by… Feldkamp… owner of Allcare and Hospitality Dental Associates and CEO of Glen Helen Raceway Park in San Bernardino. The 17 CA Family Planning clinics perform more abortions in the state than any other abortion provider – Planned Parenthood included – and they perform abortions through the first 5 months of pregnancy.
Although Feldkamp is not an abortionist, he reaps profits of blood money from the tens of thousands of babies that are killed through abortions performed every year at the clinics he owns. His business in the abortion industry was what enabled him to afford the private plane that was carrying his family to their week-long vacation at The Yellowstone Club, a millionaires-only ski resort.
The plane went down on Sunday, killing 2 of Feldkamp’s daughters, 2 sons-in-law and 5 grandchildren along with the pilot and 4 family friends….
The cause of the crash is a mystery. The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2k miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte. Witnesses report that the plane suddenly nosedived toward the ground with no apparent signs of a struggle. There was neither a cockpit voice recorder nor a flight data recorder onboard, and no radar clues into the plane’s final moments because the Butte airport is not equipped with a radar facility. Some speculate that the crash was due to ice on the wings, but this particular plane model has been tested for icy weather and experts have stated that ice being the cause is unlikely.
In my time working for Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust, I helped organize and conduct a weekly campaign where youth activists stood outside of Feldkamp’s mini-mansion in Redlands holding fetal development signs and raising community awareness regarding Feldkamp’s dealings in child murder for profit. Every Thursday afternoon we called upon Bud and his wife Pam to repent, seek God’s blessing and separate themselves from the practice of child killing.
We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you.” (Ezekiel 35:6)
A news source states that Bud Feldkamp visited the site of the crash with his wife and their 2 surviving children on Monday. As they stood near the twisted and charred debris talking with investigators, light snow fell on the tarps that covered the remains of their children.
I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment, but I think of the time spent outside of Feldkamp’s – Pam Feldkamp laughing at the fetal development signs, Bud Feldkamp trying not to make eye contact as he got into his car with a small child in tow – and I think of the haunting words, “Think of your children.” I wonder if those words were haunting Feldkamp as well as he stood in the snow among the remains of loved ones, just feet from the Tomb of the Unborn?
I only hope and pray that in the face of this tragedy, Feldkamp recognizes his need for repentance and reformation. I pray that God will use this unfortunate catastrophe to soften the hearts of Bud and Pam and that they will draw close to the Lord and wash their hands of the blood of thousands of innocent children, each as precious and irreplaceable as their own.
“I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then.” (Deut. 30:19)
This is hard to think about. Gingi’s right. No MSM report included that particular business detail. An Associated Press article did include this, however:
Feldkamp’s family has gone through tragedy before. Two years ago, his 10-month-old grandson, Chase, died after he was found to have slipped between a mattress and the edge of a bed during a nap. The child was taken to a hospital and was eventually taken off life support.
[HT: Fran Eaton at IL Review]’
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
well they’ve probably got some pretty nasty demons hanging around this family
This is very sad and very scary.
BTW, I heard the plane was suppose to hold only 10 people but there were 14 people on board.
The pilot, who was a former military flier who logged over 2k miles, gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when he asked to divert to an airport in Butte.
The reporter must have meant 2000 hours of flight time, which is considerable. 2000 miles is almost no flight time.
Chris, you’ve gotta be right about that.
Man, talk about coincidence! I’ll be praying for the remaining family.
Gingi Edmonds said:
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment”…
And then she went on to effectively try and do just that.
I hope that when one of her family members/relatives dies in a tragic accident that she reconsiders this vile and completely wicked line of reasoning.
This expression of selective karma is total BS.
Gingi owes every good Christian family whose children have died in drunk driving accidents, plane accidents, etc. an apology.
Also, this shows the horrendous lack of theological depth that is typical of the non-intellectuals in Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust. The incredibly financially wasteful outreach that does very little actual work on a budget of $80,000+ each year.
Jill:
While this is tragic, it doesn’t surprise me one bit and confirms the doctrine of the shedding of innocent blood. God is not mocked. I especially grieve for the innocent 7 children who died. We know where they are don’t we? Mr. Feldkamp can still repent and be forgiven. Hopefully this will get his attention.
Because we love people we warn them. It’s up to them to choose.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884
Hal and Reality should take special note.
Also, this is why Obama will be a tragic president.
If you think God, Elohim Jehovah, Lion of Judah is going to just let the slaughter of 50,000,000 babies go, think again.
He says that His answer will come like a thief in the night and it doesn’t have to be this way. We need to all beg HIm for mercy and grace.
God have mercy on us all and especially on our children, please God, please. Amen.
“I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment”
Yep, that’s what she did alright.
“If you think God, Elohim Jehovah, Lion of Judah is going to just let the slaughter of 50,000,000 babies go, think again.”
Well, he didn’t seem to want to stop it at 10,000,000.
“Also, this shows the horrendous lack of theological depth that is typical of the non-intellectuals in Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust. The incredibly financially wasteful outreach that does very little actual work on a budget of $80,000+ each year.
Posted by: Bad_Pro-Life_Theology/Philosophy_can_no_longer_be_tolerated at March 24, 2009 6:12 PM”
You could not have made more of a heretical statement.
You want to take me on theoloically give it your best shot.
It is in fact you who are ignorant at how the Creator deals with the shedding of innocent blood.
Make an apology for what? Making valid observations on factual events?
The ‘creepy’ factor is not that his family is dead (which is tragic), but that they died so mysteriously just feet from the Tomb of the Unborn. Making an observation as to the eerie circumstances of the tragedy is in no way an insult to victims of ‘drunk driving’ and ‘plane accidents’, and for such an articulate person I find it interesting that you somehow missed that.
As to your ‘Survivors being a financially wasteful outreach’ comment, I agree completely, which is precisely why I no longer work for / with Survivors of the Abortion Holocaust. I put in my resignation for that exact reason and now work as a freelance writer and activist.
Whether or not it was meant to be ” I told you so”, it seems like a newsworthy coincidence. It seems like the author is hoping that the event will be an eye opener. Nothing more. Don’t fall into the lie that we thirst for the blood of abortionists. We thirst for their repentence.
Many of you will refuse to believe that, but whatever.
Hal:
Actually He wanted it to be zero, however, in his grace and mercy He allows people like you to mock Him, spit on Him, scoff at Him and He waits as the suffering Savior for you to come to your senses.
However, His patience is not unlimited.
It is a very dangerous and foolish thing to trample on the grace of God.
I fear for you Hal……
Since when do we stone the messengers? Gingi was simply giving background information on Feldkamp and the events of this fiery plane crash.
For those throwing stones…..there is a real basic biblical principal in Scripture, it’s the sowing and reaping principal.
Pr 3:33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.
HisMan, I know your intentions are good. Don’t fear for me, however. Any god that doesn’t love me as I am is not one I care about pleasing….
Hal, He does love you as you are. “He loved us while we were yet sinners”.
Thanks Bethany. You’re always so nice. You make me feel guilty about sparring with Hisman.
Well then, while I’m at it, I should mention that we love you as you are too. :)
I know I haven’t always shown it but I do care about you, Hal! :)
Amen! Those who doubt the presence of our Lord, take heed! God punishes not only those who wish to murder the wonderful gift that He has given them, but also those who carry out the heinous crime on humanity.
what I meant to say is there is no reason to “fear” a God since I’m a pretty decent guy. A god worthy of worshiping should not be feared
Hal:
God does love you the way you are. “For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”.
The point is He loves you so much, He doesn’t want to leave you where you are. He created you and knows the infinite potential that you have in Him. In fact, you were created to become like His Son. What, you want to age forever, get sick, not increase in love and compassion, die, etc.? His desire for us is eternal life.
My prayer is that the potter take this lump of clay, me, and make me into what He wants me to be because I know that what he wants for me is the best for me and, He loves me even more than I love myself.
To reject God’s offer of salvation is the ultimate expression of self-hatred.
Hal, if you look up the meaning of fear (in Hebrew) when the Bible says to fear God, one of the definitions does say to “be afraid”. However, not all words use the first definitions of the words. The second and third meanings of the word “fear” actually is “to stand in awe of, be awed” and to “reverence or respect”…I do not believe it is talking about living in fear in the way that you are speaking.
God wants us to trust in Him, to put our burdens on Him, for us to be truly joyful.
We are very important to Him and He loves us.
I mean, if He didn’t, why would He leave Heaven and come to earth as a human being and die a cruel death for our sakes? (I realize you don’t agree this happened, but try to understand what my point is)
God is a loving Father to His children, not a threatening or abusive being who is out to get us. That isn’t the point of fearing Him.
Hal:
Perfect love casts out all fear.
We only fear what we don’t understand and what we don’t know. When we learn who God really is we learn to love Him more than fear Him.
I admit that I used to fear God. Now, the fear has turned more to respect and love. I know He loves me and isn’t mad at me. I also know what I am capable of, so always in the back of my mind, I know that God sees everything I do. It becomes a matter of wanting to please Him and understanding that He wants the best for me. A negative is replaced by a positive.
I understand why you don’t want to be motivated by fear since that is manipulation. I apologize for presenting God in that way.
You should give Him a shot. He is wonderful beyond description and the life is out of this world.
Hey, I just learned by accident that there’s a spell checker on this thing. Good going Jill, I’m in the 21st century.
Hisman, I don’t know what I’d do without spell checker! I have actually learned how to spell many words correctly over time. lol
Bethany:
I am an expert speller, I just can’t type.
That is creepy.
What could move a man to buy out a huge abortion chain? He must have known Allred and …
Allred built that chain up from the ground, starting in 1970 when California legalized abortion on demand. So he sort of grew into the evil. But for Feldkamp to just buy it for an investment? Who just decides to BUY a death empire?
I’m trying to imagine the conversations.
Christina, I know.
SoMG, you must really like it here!
I am not clear on what the one year old, two year old and four year olds who died in this horrific crash did to encourage abortion. If the plane crash were some kind of Divine Justice then wouldn’t perfect justice demand the millions of women who whored around and the men who couldn’t keep it zipped then tottled off to get rid of the babies that resulted be passengers in that plane instead? I doubt the two year old or four year olds were present at the inception of the Sexual Revolution when those who embraced its hedonism made the enforcement tool of abortion their sacrament.
Bethany, Hisman said he feared for me. Implying, I think, that bad things would happen to me in this life or the next because I turn my back on God.
Christina: It’s like buying a Nazi concentration camp!
This is terribly sad. :(
Good riddance. Unfortunately others were aboard, but that cretin had it coming.
Maybe what Hisman means, Hal, is that the more hardened a soul becomes the less responsive it is to God’s grace. God doesn’t force Himself on anyone — He continues to invite us to Himself. If one rejects Him at the moment of death then they are actually choosing Hell. So “… if today you hear is voice, harden not your hearts…” God bless you.
Johanan, those folks on the plane weren’t asking for it. I doubt that those women even knew that their dad had bought up a chain of abortion mills. And certainly the babies didn’t know.
But maybe Feldkamp will reflect on what mass death of innocents really is and divest himself of his unholy holdings by closing them down or beating his canulas into plowshares by turning the facilities into real clinics that provide actual medical care.
I really appreciate the chance to hear this story. I’m sure you knew the abuse you’d have to go through in order to tell it. Thanks for being willing to take the abuse. I’m sure God really appreciates it, too.
Wow. Some of the comments on here are really, really gross. An entire family is dead and yet somehow we manage to tie it back to a political fight on abortion. Everyone contemplating on how this family’s being judged in the afterlife.
Can’t just be bad enough that they are dead…you needed to post it. Why?
I’m really saddened and disappointed by what I’ve uncovered by clicking on this post. Should’ve never done it.
You people are sick. Our friends lost their family.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/redlands/stories/PE_News_Local_S_plane24.40a87f4.html
Dear Annonymous,
No one is happy that your friends are dead. In fact, before tragedy ever struck your friends, we in the Christian community have been praying for them.
Every news source in the nation is reporting on the events surrounding the tragedy. But unlike the news-thirsty impersonal reporting of mainstream media outlets, the detailed reporting on facts pertaining to the church (Feldkamp DOES own 17 baby-slaughtering mills) will result in prayer for his family and his soul.
I couldn’t have put it better, “But maybe Feldkamp will reflect on what mass death of innocents really is and divest himself of his unholy holdings by closing them down or beating his canulas into plowshares by turning the facilities into real clinics that provide actual medical care.”
Why dont you let people mourn in peace….. The people on this flight were miraculous, educated, caring, and giving individuals…all christians and active members of their churches and schools…. Let them rest in peace and leave their father’s business dealings out of it…deal with your issues with him on another level at another time. This is not the right time to be trashing good people who were tragically lost.
When I saw this story on the news, it just said a plane carrying families with children had crashed in a cemetary. I immediately prayed for them and their families. Then it was discovered that we ‘knew’ by reputation, who the patriarch of the family is. My daughters had prayed for and tried to convince Dr. Feldkamp ‘the error of his ways’. As soon as my daughter Gingi came running down the stairs to tell me (after reading the details of the crash with family names) who it was…I thought it was the Dr. himself…but to hear that he and his wife were spared, while their children and grandchildren and friends were not, was beyond horrifying. I think instead of an ‘I told you so’…it was more like, ‘we tried to tell you’…’we warned you.’ When you deal in the ‘business of death’ he did (17 abortion clinics), you are dealing with the devil. He prospered due to ‘blood money’. Someone up above mentioned ‘demons’, can you imagine the kind of activity that his ‘business’ attracts in the spiritual realm? As my grandpa used to say, ‘You can’t dance with the devil and not get burned’. My prayers go out to the families and friends of these people. May this event open Dr. Feldkamp’s eyes, and change his heart, and lead him to peace in the Lord by getting out of this dirty business. Only in Christ is there forgiveness and grace.
My brother and I went to school with the daughters who were killed. These were pillars of our society. Everyone should leave their father’s dealings out of this and let them have peace. Rejoice in the good that these families brought to so many people in their communities and deal with other issues after they have been put to rest and honor has been given to them! We need many more people like them in our awful society and we might start to rebuild.
who do you think you are that God chose “you” to warn anyone. and Johann – What are your demons????
Johanan
How dare you say good ridence. Feldkamp wasnt even on the plane. Innocent women, children , and good men were on the plane. None of them had anything to do with the abortion business.
You are obviously a sick person who needs to look inside yourself and find peace. These were good people.
Dear Anonymous, my condolences on your loss. My daughter, and the other Christians here are NOT ‘trashing good people’, we are in fact doing the opposite. My daughters have both been to Dr. Feldkamp’s home (within the last year), praying, imploring, begging him to get out of the ‘business of death’ he was in. If you knew someone who was ‘hanging out with a bad crowd’, wouldn’t you warn them of the danger they were putting themselves and their loved ones in? Well, what happens in the physical world, also goes for the spiritual…Dr. Feldkamp dealt in a dark, dirty business of killing for hire. No matter how you look at it, he prospered on the blood of innocent babies. You think Satan doesn’t love that? You think that doesn’t attract a ‘negative’ crowd in the spirit realm? He brought that evil to himself by not avoiding this sin. The worse part, the saddest, most horrific part is the sick irony that Satan uses. Beautiful babies, struck from the sky and falling into a cemetary near the ‘Tomb of the Unborn’…it sounds like the plot of a scary movie. Evil is real, and bad things happen to good people. Just like in the world, you don’t choose to walk the streets of the bad side of town at night, or invite menacing strangers into your home…you have to be aware of what you invite spiritually as well.
Our prayers are on-going.
So sad for the poor people on the plane. I have no idea why the children died- but, then again, it is very possible that God had better plans for them in their afterlives. I don’t think that anyone ought to consider this karma or retribution (though, thankfully, no one here has mentioned that), though there is an awful lot of poetic justice in many things that God does. But if we label the tragedy that befell those seven children as punishment for the abortionist amongst them, then that is saying that they are guilty because of what one man in their family did. Was he their father? We can’t say that children who are the product of rape ought not to be aborted because of what their father did but it is perfectly viable to label what happened to these seven children as “guilt by association.” Again, thank you all for saying that the children were innocent instead of saying “they had it commin.'” It makes me feel much better being here.
So your god is a spiritual mob boss? Nice.
Has your “reporter” been anywhere near this cemetery? There is no “Tomb of the Unborn” anyplace near the site of the crash. Must you continually make things up to try to support your point?
What a tragedy! These families looked wonderful, innocent. Our hearts go out to you Anonymous.
I guess what we could all agree on is that the babies that were slaughtered in the killing centers owned and operated by their father/father-in-law/grandpa, were just as innocent, just as wonderful. How many dentists, ophthalmologists, hygienists were murdered in his businesses before they even had an opportunity to enjoy their first breath.
It’s tragic that now Mr Feldkamp knows the loss God feels when his children die prematurely.
Asitis, thank you for posting that article with the pictures of the families who were lost. I am in tears over this. How absolutely horrible. I am keeping their families in my prayers.
God did not take those innocent people from us, but He does open our eyes and reveal truth in every situation. The truth is that if that plane were boarded with all the men and women who aborted babies, no one would really care, or we’d say “karma”. We have to see a life worthy, according to our judgements, be taken away from us in order to be saddened by it. What God wants us to know is that every life if worthy, especially the unborn! If we fight for the unborn children with just half the zeal we’ve had in this forum, abortion would be abolished! ‘Children suffer the sin’s of the parents in every age.’
Lets look at it this way we all have innocent blood on are hand unless we do something about it. To make are tax dollars not being given to pp and other places to pay for the innocent killing of are babies. We should support the women that are pregnant and give them a alternative to abortion why are we not doing that. Teach more birth control.annonymous I’m sorry for your lose my prayer are with your family. You should look at the site abort73.com and see what we are trying to get out to the world. May God Bless us all!!!!!
Sadly, it is the innocent who die for the sins of others – in this case, Feldkamp’s two daughters and grandchildren are dead, along with his sons in law. This is so tragic.
I am an abortion survivor and I can tell you that no one mourned the passing of my child except for me for years and years and years. People like Feldkamp have gotten rich off of women like me who felt they had no choice but to have an abortion. My innocent baby died so I could live a life that was in accordance to my family’s acceptability. My baby had done no wrong…just like the innocents on the airplane – done no wrong.
I do wonder if the daughters knew that their dad was wealthy off of abortion mills, the killing of innocent babies and the wounding of women and men. If they were Christian, and had that knowledge, I wonder if they counseled him against abortion as all Christians should.
I am so sorry that Dr. Feldkamp has lost his family in this tragic accident – I am praying for the repose of all of those on board and for the comfort of their loved ones and family.
I AM ALSO praying for Dr. Feldkamp to close his abortion mills down. To choose LIFE and not death. We have seen enough death by abortion.
I do know that God often uses lightening bolts and two by fours to get His People’s attention – this is Bud’s attention getter – trust me!
He is a rich man and that is obviously a problem for most people. What you must understand is that he was a very rich man long before he ever owned these clinics. I do believe that at some point wealth can lead to making bad decisions. I do not agree with abortion, but wish these great peoples memory could not have been tainted by this type of blog that really has nothing to do with them.
May all those who died experience God’s infinite Mercy, and may God bring healing, comfort and peace to their families. Some posters here have said those who died are all innocent of the blood of the dead children who are slaughtered in those abortion clinics. How do we know that? His daughters were grown women with children of their own. It is very difficult to believe they did not know of their father’s business. It quite likely that they all knew, with the exception of the children who died. They have also been described as “pillars of society” and “Christians.” There is a great disconnect in our society today between being a Christian and living a Christian life. The two are not always the same. Perhaps they did call themselves Christian. Perhaps Mr. Feldkamp calls himself a Christian, as well. If he is such a good businessman, he surely knows that what he is doing is gravely wrong and evil. He chooses to do it anyway. We can make a judgment about this without being judgmental. He is in need of repentance and contrition for these horrific sins. Only God knows why He allowed this to happen, but as He has done many times in the history of mankind, God is a God of many chances. Today is the acceptable time for Mr. Feldkamp and all those others who deal in death and blood for money to repent. Perhaps they will at least consider it and save their souls. God can bring good out of any situation. We continue to pray for an end to this evil in our world, for every day that we kill children in their mothers’ wombs is another day closer to time when we all experience God’s wrath. GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED! THESE ARE HIS CHILDREN THAT ARE BEING MURDERED! God help us all!
No offense guys, but the majority of you sound like a bunch of real a**holes right now. With the exception of a few, and I know many of you have good intentions, but you need to understand that “We warned him” is the same as “We told you so.”
HisMan, I’m especially interested in your reaction to this, because it seems to contradictory to what you stated in the BC thread:
“I don’t think God actively punishes people like that. I think He lovingly warns people and then allows bad things to happen to us in discipline and only for our ultimate good. But He never gives us more than we can handle. I don’t see how punishing a woman with breast cancer for having an abortion makes any sense. This is not the God I know.”
The God I know doesn’t kill children in plane accidents so that the business man will know what it feels like for God when abortions happen, either.
This is repulsive. And some of these comments are extremely disappointing.
I think that God is merciful, and that maybe He might have great plans for these people, but we, cannot judge. I only pray that this man and his family realize that abortion is murder, but I also implore all right to life advocates to open minds about birth control, education, and realistic goals to stop the slaughter of the unborn. Then, and only then, when bridges are built, will we see the beginning of the end of sheer barbaric practices… All are in my prayers.
To PrettyinPink:
I think you misunderstand…nowhere did we state that we thought God harmed those innocent children to get back at the father/grandfather. Even though, we know that ‘the sins of the father’ will be visited on the children. Everyone has seen that (the drug addict who’s lifestyle negatively affects his offspring). Why is it so hard to believe that in the spiritual world, bad things can ‘rub off’ on those around us. By engaging in business dealings that had him owning 17 abortion clinics, this man was making money off the death and dismemberment of innocent children. The women who walked into those clinics, all for the sake of ‘choice’ are literally and emotionally scarred by the experience. Don’t you think that Satan LOVES places like that? He is happy when babies die. HE is the one who brought evil into this world. And just like the person who walks out into traffic without looking both ways, can be ‘warned’ by a stranger, people tried to ‘warn’ this man of the dangers he was getting into spiritually. Think of it this way, if you invited a theif into your home, would you/should you be surprised when/if they stole from you? If you made money off the lives of innocent children (a concept that Satan is behind, being that original child sacrifice was to ‘false gods’ ie: satan)…don’t you think that somewhere, at sometime, some of that evil just might effect you?
He lost one grandson, how horrible…shouldn’t that have made him realize just how precious life is? But then, he went on in the ‘baby killing business’, how can anyone be surprised that something so horrific has happened to him?
Unfortunately, too many times, it is the innocent children who do suffer for the sins of their parents.
We will continue to pray for Dr. Feldkamp, and the remaining members of his family. He needs to open his eyes and see the horror that he has been a party to. Forgiveness is there in Christ Jesus.
Reminder, no anonymous posts allowed.
Gingi, thanks for posting this information to begin with, and Gingi and Suzi, thanks for your thoughtful posts.
I am having a hard time with this one. I am friends with Pastor Scott and Janet Willis, who lost 6 children in a firey car crash as a direct result of IL Gov. George Ryan’s corruption (http://is.gd/oQiY).
It rains on the good as well as the bad. Ultimately, all death is a result of sin, thanks to Adam and Eve. God has appointed each person’s hour, for purposes only He knows.
When I read Gingi’s well-done press release (which I’m grateful for and which I know must have been awfully hard to write correctly, which she did), the tragedy became even sadder to me, and I’m not sure why. It just did.
I was also struck that no news outlets reported Feldkamp’s other livelihood. Had he owned a chain of free clinics, they would have. This again points out people innately understand there is something wrong with abortion. And yes, it is something to be said, not ignored, during this tragedy. It is germane.
That Feldkamp’s family family died so close to the Tomb of the Unborns is indeed poetic. I can’t say it’s poetic justice, that’s God’s domain, but it is poetic.
Thank you Jill. I’m not sure if you are aware, but I’m Gingi’s mom. When we saw the news last night, we just saw a family that suffered unspeakable loss, it was so upsetting that Gingi asked me to change the channel. This morning, she literally ran down the stairs to tell me who that family was. We were both shaking, it was all together too horrific, at first we thought it was Dr. Feldkamp in the plane, then we realized it was even worse…he was left alive. Yes, I’m not saying ‘he should have died’, I’m saying, as a parent…it would be much worse to be left alive when you had arraigned a flight to have your children and grandchildren flying to meet you. But this just wasn’t a sad case of a tragic accident. Both my daughters had stood outside this man’s home, praying for him to repent and stop engaging in these businesses. I think Gingi was most shaken by the fact that at one time she saw him, with a child…most likely one of those who died. Everyone who looked at those photos of those beautiful children had to ache, but to know you most likely saw that child alive? Believe me, this was a roller coaster of emotions.
As rational adults we know that what we do in our lives, our actions or inactions always have repurcussions. We know that when we do things that do not please the Lord (when we are Christians) we know that we are allowing that blessing to be removed. Dr. Feldkamp ignored, not just the praying, sign-holding protesters, but he had to have ignored GOD to stay in that business. We do everything we can to keep our children safe. Good parents do that. Yet this man conducted business affairs that were worse that dealing with ‘mob bosses’ or ‘drug cartels’…he was doing business with the devil. Did he not think he was culpable? Did he think, since he was not actually performing abortions he was ‘safe’ from any fall out? We’ve been told, via emails and phone calls, that his daughters were Christians, and active in their church. Did they not share their faith with their father? Strangers stood outside his house and tried to ‘help him’ to the truth…surely they voiced their concerns?
As a mother, I am torn tonight. I am so proud of Gingi for putting the information together, for sharing it, and hearing her talk to a family friend of this man with compassion and the love of Christ. But I’m also concerned with the other emails she’s already gotten. To say ‘death threats’ is an understatement. Now, as a mom, I’m wondering if she should have spoken up. But then, I have to stop and remember who I’m dealing with. She’s been ‘pro-life’ since she was a child. When I watched the movie ‘The Silent Scream’ when I was very pregnant with her, she began to thrash about…I was so upset I had to leave the theater. To this day, I’m sure that she was affected by me being affected. And I know that God has had his hand on her since her conception.
Thank you for posting her piece. All she wants to do is fight this battle for the unborn…and all I can do is be there for her when she reads nasty, scary and horrific emails when she speaks out. I pray for the Feldkamp family, I pray that Dr. Feldkamp’s eyes are open and his heart is ready to recieve the forgiveness and cleansing that he needs. If he closed those businesses, it would be a positive step toward less loss of life, and a wonderful tribute to those he lost. Those children looked like beautiful little angels, honor them by praying for their Grandpa’s salvation…I’m sure they will want to see him again.
This disgusts me. No matter what your beliefs on abortion, using such a tragedy to push your agenda is utterly vile, and shows a lack of common decency and moral cowardice which astounds me.
If parasites such as Gingi cannot see that they are effectively laughing in the face of the bereaved, they are blind beyond all hope.
There are many things I do not agree with, but I would never wait until those I have issues with are at their most vunerable to publicly offend them and say that they deserve their horrific suffering.
Suzi, I understand you are concerned for your daughter. Death threats are absolutely unwarrented in any situation. But imagine yourself in the victim’s position – your family have died, and people are publicly blaming you and saying “I told you so”. Really, please try and put yourself in their shoes. Can you really blame people for their anger?
I can only hope that Gingi seriously thinks about the hurt she has personally caused people in the name of her god, and apologises for the pain that she has caused
Suzi, yes, I read you are Gingi’s mom.
I have read on another blog some of the comments made about Gingi and bragadocious recopying of emails sent to Gingi. (I note some of the commenters to that blog also comment here.)
Gingi did the right thing by revealing Feldkamp’s history. That part of the story needed to be told. The mere fact that it had remained untold is telling, as I wrote in my previous post.
Gingi’s press release was well written. She appropriately conveyed the tragedy of the situation as well as her personal angst after having dealt with the Feldkamps. I hope the threats and jaunts Gingi gets do not make her retreat but only help thicken her skin. I’ve always thought abortion must be satan’s favorite sin, so those who take it on will get hit the hardest.
God speed.
There are powers we can not control, we do reap what we sow. There are powers greater than man. Thank God for that, it would be a sadder world if man was really in control. In the end the mystery of God will be revealed.
Bev, yes, those children were innocent.
So was every child who died in abortion.
God took away David’s son because of David’s sin. The Bible contains many stories of children who died because their parents sinned.
There would be a mistake in assuming that bad things always occur as punishment–consider, for example, the story of Job. The ending has some really awesome math.
However, God does sometimes punish the guilty with the deaths of the innocent; and God certainly sometimes punishes the wicked in this life and always in the next, unless they repent and abandon their sin.
And David did repent, but God still killed his baby.
Those men and women who aborted have already lost at least one child. Many–there are no statistics that I know of–go on to lose a dearly wanted child as well. I don’t know if that’s a punishment, but it can be a result of abortion, which can cause infertility or inability to carry a pregnancy to term.
And God, who is just and merciful, is no longer punishing the innocents who died. They are with Him and will not know any more pain or fear.
May God have mercy on the living as well; may their hearts be softened to repent and turn to Him.
Really, please try and put yourself in their shoes. Can you really blame people for their anger?
yeah, Please try doing that for aborted babies. You’ll get a whole different perspective on tragedy and death.
I would not have chosen this thread to debate birth control, but one of the Anonymous posters brought it up, so:
There is a difference between thinking something is wrong and thinking it should be illegal. I think it is wrong for a Christian to avoid conceiving children unless they will be unable to feed and care for them (not the case in the US), or it will likely cause the woman serious harm or death. However, that is a personal matter between them and God. If they are not married, there should be no need for birth control.
While I think that sterilization has devastating health effects for men and women, and I question why a doctor would want to perform sterilizations, I do not think that they should be illegal.
However, IUDs and hormonal birth control for women work in part by killing babies, so I do think these should be illegal. IUDs work mainly by making the uterine lining inhospitable. This means that unless they are releasing hormones as well, they do nothing to stop fertilization, and simply prevent the newly conceived child from implanting and surviving. Hormonal birth control works in three major ways. First, it may (but doesn’t always) prevent ovulation. Okay. It may change cervical mucous to make it more difficult for sperm to reach the egg. Okay. It may thin the uterine lining so that the conceived child will not implant if breakthrough ovulation occurs and the egg is fertilized. Not okay. This is common knowledge to medical professionals (though few share it with the patients they prescribe the birth control to) and has been proven by studying the rates of ectopic pregnancy in hormonal-birth-control users and those not using birth control.
So birth control is bad because it prevents children, which are blessings, and some forms of birth control are evil because they cause children’s deaths.
This link places Irving ‘Bud’ Feldman IV (the son) as president of Family Planning Associates.
It’s their newsletter.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:6ArNS5GtcjkJ:www.fpamg.net/fpa%2520quarterly/Microsoft%2520Word%2520-%2520Quarterly%252004-08.pdf+feldkamp+Family+planning+associates&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
I don’t expect this to remain on Google forever.
I am horrified that one man’s family is dead in a fiery plane crash. How tragic for all of the friends and family. I am praying for Bud and his wife. For comfort and peace and that they rethink their involvement in abortion.
So sad.
Jill, Gingi, and Suzi,
You could not have explained things more succinctly or more charitably. Some people refuse to see unfortunately. “Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord…”
I also wanted to thank Gingi and Suzi for the truth.
Guy G
I am astounded as well that the proabortion liberal media would delete certain facts in this tragedy to push it’s utterly vile proabort agenda. I am disgusted. Indeed.
A friend of mine retired from his OB/Gyn practice when his son was killed. He did not do abortions. He did however have tremendous pain and guilt from not being the daddy his son needed. Working 24/7 left him with cat Stevens words regarding “growing up just like you”.
xppc,
I can’t even imagine what guilt and grief parents who have lost children go through. I look back myself on so much I would have done different. I find myself telling people with small children to enjoy them.
To think I couldn’t wait to be an empty nester!
Today I am taking a cake to my daughter’s office and taking her out to lunch for her birthday.
Whew. There are some really tweaked people commenting here.
Gingi, as a writer myself, and someone who’s been in the news business for a few years, it’s obvious what you intended by putting the story together as you did.
Hell, as someone who grew up in the Deep South and saw the clever way anti-black writers had of reporting on race, or misogynistic men had of writing about women – so they could make sly cracks and yet deny it – I’d know it.
And yeah, Suzi, yadda, yadda, yadda, good for you, mommy, for being proud of her.
But this is a sick story. Truly disgusting.
Rationalize it in whatever way you want, and of course your goddy friends will defend and agree with you. Seeing the comments here, it’s a no-brainer that you knew they would make the connection you intended, and applaud you.
Problem is, this is not some private Christian anti-abortion meeting where you can all pat yourselves on the back for how wonderful you are, and how evil Feldkamp is, and how deserving he is – however slickly you express it – to have someone in his family die.
Instead, you’re standing on a much larger, much more open stage. The public spotlight is on, Gingi, and in this light, you look more than a little dirty.
When people know your agenda, speaking about it in code, so only your friends and followers will understand, just doesn’t work anymore. We ALL understand.
Even allowing yourself to think of this stuff is ugly. Slinging it around in public like stinking pus, where it can infect others, is nasty as hell.
I’d suggest you be more careful, in the future, at keeping these mean-spirited thoughts to yourself.
…and has been proven by studying the rates of ectopic pregnancy in hormonal-birth-control users and those not using birth control.
Posted by: YCW at March 25, 2009 7:17 AM
*********************************************
Hi YCW. I was wondering if you might know of any studies that show this, or if you might point me in the direction of where to look. I had not heard this before and I’d be interested to see the research.
Thank you. :)
Nobody is saying that this family deserved to die. Sometimes bad things happen to good people, that’s just the nature of life. What I do know is that sometimes, yes, our sin affects the people we love even though they had nothing to do with our choices. And I also know that God does use tragedy to wake us up to the truth. But I don’t pretend to say that I know what God’s motive or plan is in *allowing* (not necessarily CAUSING) this to happen. I am sorry that this tragedy happened. But I hope that this man and his wife do wake up to the wrong they are doing — if this tragedy makes them rethink their involvement in the abortion industry, then perhaps their deaths won’t be a complete waste. The only way a senseless tragedy can be made into something good is if the people who feel the loss the most MAKE some good come out of it and really think about things instead of just drowning their sorrows and going on with life as usual.
“God took away David’s son because of David’s sin. The Bible contains many stories of children who died because their parents sinned.”
So you are fine and happy with a god that kills innocent children just because their parents were sinners? What about innocent children of good people? Why not look into the lives of the rest of those who died and try to find the skeletons in the closet of those families as well?
What you have written above is pure OT stuff that has changed in the NT and in generations beyond. Maybe your idea of a God who decides to kill innocent people for the hell of it is your idea of ‘karma’ but the God I know doesn’t do that.
Why not let these families mourn in peace?
I mean, this is really as bad as those who were saying that the enormous devastation from Katrina was ‘divine retribution’ on gay people; this is no better than the tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church. Those of you who praise this article are saying this is some sort of divine retribution when you fail to realize that you are being completely dehumanizing. If my brother died and my mom was someone really sinful, the last think I would want is an article outlining why God did this to my brother (why, because of my mother!). Or perhaps why God might have killed someone during the war (they are going to hell, that’s why!)–why don’t you tell those families that, they must really have comfort in that.
How repulsive.
PIP:
First, none of can know exactly why something happens like this. We can only ponder and think and pray about it and ask God to reveal what He is trying to show us.
However, based on my experience and study, I don’t think God actively punishes people in the here and now, however, I do think He disciplines those He loves. That is not to say that hell will not be a punishment. That is why He pleads with us to choose Christ. He does not want us to go to hell and will allow very bad things to happen to us so that we will “wake up”.
I do think that he lifts His hand of protection which can result in harm to both ourselves and innocents especially after we continue to disobey after repeated warnings. This view is evidenced everywhere in the Bible.
From personal experience, I was associated with a 60 million dollar job on a casino about 15 years ago. At the conclusion of that job my son almost died from a botched appendectomy. He was literally hours away from death. I pleaded with God to spare Him and He graciously did. While I could have become a multi-multi millionaire from similar subsequent jobs, I believed God was telling me He didn’t want me to participate in any such jobs again and I haven’t. My son went on to become a scholar and superb athlete and is now an engineer like his dad.
In the Book of Acts where Ananias and Sapphira (both believers) lied to the Holy Spirit and were immediately struck dead. God used this as an example to protect His reputation to the newly instituted church. Judgment starts with the house of God. Nowhere does it say these people went to hell. Moses diobeyed God and as a result didn’t enter the Promised Land, however, he obvioulsy went to heaven because he appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration.
St. Paul in the Book of Romans writes this in Romans 1:24-28 “therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.”
Three times in this passage God says, “He gave them over”.
Also, in 1 Peter 5:7-9 “Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” God warns us to be self-controlled and alert, because the devil wants to destroy us.
He says here in Ephesians 6:10-12 “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
If there was no danger out their why would God command us to put on armor? And we know that in war innocent people are killed. Sin has consequences PIP. If we truly loved our families we would do everything in our power to know, love and serve God as are some of the first instructions in the Catholic Catechism.
God is a God of love and mercy and grace however, he is not mocked and He is sovereign. This why we believers are continually warning and pleading with people to change their ways and views about abortion.
Having said all that, physical death is not the end. As horrible as this is to think that 14 people lost their lives, and believe me, my heart is broken for this family and their friends, God has the ultimate final say. This is why Jesus died on the cross so that even in the midst of satan’s attempts at destroying innocent people in the womb via abortion or innocent people in a plane crash, God can make this all turn out for the good. If Mr. Feldkamp wants to see his grandchildren and children again in Heaven he should do everything in his power to get there. All is not lost and God can turn even something this tragic into a glorious victory. I mean what do we think the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ means? It means turning what appears to be a tragic and utter defeat into a glorious and eternal victory.
While my heart breaks for Mr. Feldkamp and I cannot imagine the pain he feels right now, I hope he realizes in his great pain that he has actually been given an opportunity to turn this imto a monumental testimony for God. The apostle Paul murdered Christians and became, through surrender to Christ, one of the greatest men who ever lived.
I really hope Mr. Feldkamp does not choose to become bitter but instead decides to submit to a loving and holy God who loves Him and wants his eternal good.
Jesus came the first time as a lamb but, when He comes again it will be a Warrior King. It is very, very dangerous to tempt Christ, i.e., to proclaim that we know Him and continue to do evil.
Finally, in Hebrews 10:26-31 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.””
Thank you for showing the true colors of the pro-life movement.
Gloating over the tragic death of a man’s family… the immolation of his young grandchildren… and cheering this monstrosity, attributing it to G-d… amazing. Is it possible for you to sink lower?
And ON TOP of that (if that’s even possible”) – there is no “Tomb of the Unborn” in that cemetary. You’ve made that up entirely, simply to further use this tragedy to your own ends.
Gingi, again, I thank you for showing us what the “pro-life” cause is really about. Lies, and a complete lack of empathy or common decency.
Gingi and Suzi,
Excellent article.
And ON TOP of that (if that’s even possible”) – there is no “Tomb of the Unborn” in that cemetary.
Posted by: Hannah at March 25, 2009 10:10 AM
Okay, that’s the second time this claim has been made here and no one has refuted it is. Gingi? Jill? Anyone? Is there such a tomb in the cemetery or was this concocted as is being claimed??
Google. Use it.
YCW said: “and God certainly sometimes punishes the wicked in this life and always in the next, unless they repent and abandon their sin.”
Thanks YCW! I will remember that as I enjoy and chuckle at the discomfort of the MCs and FITZs as Obamessiah shows up at THEIR university. The foam at their mouths won’t be Guiness come June. Yeah, God. After 20 years on the SW side of Chi town, I can confidently say you couldn’t pick a more wicked bunch to discomfort.
I have read nearly all the previous posts on this blog with their varied reactions and points.
I am glad Gingi Edmonds that you gave us special information that other news accounts omitted.
It is true that trials and afflictions fall upon both the just and the unjust–and the Scriptures clearly teach this. The Old Testament Book of Job is an especially good example how God allows terrible trials (through the agency of Satan in this case) to try and refine God’s best saints.
Among the many and awful trials that the godly man Job suffered was the loss of his children.
That said, God will and does hold accountable those who despise and trample upon life and righteousness and the grace of God; those who mock God and Christ by their words and their deeds. Sometimes this accountability is not particularly evident during this earthly life, sometimes it is.
Both as individuals and as a nation we are and will be held accountable for our sins. The “shedding of innocent blood” is clearly a violation of Divine law. May God have mercy and grace toward all of us and may we be sensitive and obedient to the convicting and converting work of the Holy Spirit.
One should not become angry when foolish people ignore signs from God whether “coincidental” or blatant. God has given everyone a choice to believe or not to believe. We simply are responsible for telling them. We should mourn their decision to choose death for themselves and others. We are to stand up for those who are not given the option to choose- the unborn and others who have no voice. Pearls should not be forced upon those who want only to crush His beautiful gift. There will be a day when arguments will cease.We are not God to tell Him how we will serve Him or tell Him to take it or leave it. Wow how arrogant to say we won’t serve Him on His terms! Oh yes we will – sooner or later. If people would just stop resisting and know His love they’d never fall for the lies.
And ON TOP of that (if that’s even possible”) – there is no “Tomb of the Unborn” in that cemetary.
Posted by: Hannah at March 25, 2009 10:10 AM
Okay, that’s the second time this claim has been made here and no one has refuted it is. Gingi? Jill? Anyone? Is there such a tomb in the cemetery or was this concocted as is being claimed??
Posted by: asitis at March 25, 2009 10:16 AM
The plane crash happened in Holy Cross Catholic Cemetery. As Carla said, you can Google it.
Hannah, if you are going to make such a claim please check it out first – and it’s cemetEry not cemetAry.
Someone has said this better than I:
“I’m trying to recall an instance where Christ looked at the death of innocent children, pointed, and then said “See? This is what happens, what did we learn?””
I called Cathy at Holy Cross Cemetery, Resurrection Cemetery & Association, 4700 Harrison Ave, Butte, MT 59701-7001, and she says there IS a Tomb of the Unborn at this cemetery.
Being an atheist, and having plenty of times seen Christian writers tell blatant lies in order to support their arguments of faith, I wouldn’t have been surprised if there was not. But also being an atheist, and a former newspaperman, I try to look for the real facts of each case, rather than what I would like to be the facts.
In this case, according to a witness on the site, there appears to be a Tomb of the Unborn at the location. Also in this case, however, some of the people commenting on this story, including Gingi, still appear to be seriously tweaked.
And HisMan, I fail to see the difference between God causing bad things to happen as ‘discipline’ or ‘warning’ and God causing bad things as punishment. Punishments are an attempt to discipline. You are in fact, saying that God did this to punish him.
First, none of can know exactly why something happens like this. We can only ponder and think and pray about it and ask God to reveal what He is trying to show us.
However, that won’t stop the nutjob element in the Christian community from giving support to Gingi’s ghoulish behaviour on this very thread.
I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment…
Too late for that. You just did. Shame on you.
Shame on all those that claim to be Christians and don’t roundly condemn her.
Disgusting.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/a_heartless_faith.php
I cannot believe, of what I said above, the only thing you were concerned about was whether or not there actually was a “tomb of the unborn” in that cemetery. (not to mention, how “cemetery” is spelled. I can see how that’s a priority in a discussion about how you are praising G-d regarding children burning to death)
Google does not indicate that there was any “tomb of the unborn” in the cemetary at issue. The only statements that there is such a “tomb” are in pro-life sites copying the article cited here.
I verified my information with a person who actually has been in the cemetary at issue several times, and told me firsthand that there is no “tomb of the unborn” anywhere near there.
all of which is only tangentially relevant.
though I can see why you’d want to take the focus off the fact that you are gloating over the death of a man’s family, children, and grandchildren.
Hannah, no one is gloating.
Hank, thanks for the update. I had googled it and found nothing exception references to this article throughout the prolife blogs. I was curious that no one was refuting the claim. Good to see Gingi didn’t make that part up. It’s enough of a disservice without that.
As for the tomb, see Tom Fox’s post at 11:15
He said “I called Cathy at Holy Cross Cemetery, Resurrection Cemetery & Association, 4700 Harrison Ave, Butte, MT 59701-7001, and she says there IS a Tomb of the Unborn at this cemetery.”
PIP:
You want to argue go ahead and argue with yourself. I tried to make a distinction between God allowing things to happen and Him causing things to happen. Perhaps I failed and I don’t have time to deal with this very deep subject at the moment but I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t put words in my mouth and just read my comments.
As with all your other positions on various issues from creation to the death penalty and in spite of much scriptural evidence, you seem to always want to choose your own way. With you, it’s always seems to be your own opininon backed up by people you agree with or that agree with you. I use God’s word.
That’s fine since I hold no way over you, only concern.
I stand by what I said. I will always try to tell the truth and back in up with Scripture.
Dear Posters,
Please each and everyone think biblically ( that is if you are born again). The Bible has numerous examples where whole families were wiped out due to the sins of the fathers. Achan comes to mind. The sins of others do have an effect on others. Nations also perish due to the sins of the majority. How many babies and “innocent” died during the flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? 70 A.D? etc.
We must not lose focus on the Word of the Lord. He is a loving Father, but He’s also a just Judge. He does hear the cries of the innocent as their blood is shed. Our sympathies should be turned toward the thousands of little boys and girls who have been slaughtered in Feldkamp’s Death Camps.
“In 1950 “Babyland” was established at the cemetery. A statue of the Guardian Angel marks the area where babies are buried. Members of the former St. Peter the Fisherman Parish, Garden, donated a statue of the Blessed Virgin for the Babyland section.
In July 1995 the Knights of Columbus erected a “Tomb for the Unborn” for victims of abortion.”
http://www.dioceseofmarquette.org/upcarticle.asp?upcID=852
HisMan, this is what you wrote:
“I don’t think God actively punishes people in the here and now, however, I do think He disciplines those He loves”
What is the difference between ‘actively punishing’ and ‘discipline’?
“Allowing things” to “discipline people” is the same thing as punishing them. It’s like me finding a child slip in the bathtub, allowing him to drown, and then use that child’s death to highlight how his father has a gambling problem.
Kind of a roundabout way to do it, huh? Kind of…cruel? I know you keep saying I’m putting “words in your mouth” but I’m trying to make you see that the distinctions you are drawing are flimsy.
As said before, if you have a problem with my views on creation and death penalty, express the same sort of “concern” towards the Catholic Church, or I can only consider you someone who vexes me on purpose or is too cowardly to condemn them. I don’t appreciate that.
PIP,
You’re bringing up Christ and God alot. Do you do this at your own convienance? You do believe in God? Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?
Or are you just using Him to bash pro-lifers? Aren’t you the pro-lifer who voted for Barack Hussian Obama?
Are you a hypocrite of the worst kind PIP? Are you a fraud?
Whether or not this is punishment from God is up to God. Perhaps we ought to leave it in His hands to decide? It is so sad that the entire family died. Instead of arguing, perhaps we ought to focus our attentions on advocating love and outreach.
I’m happy, though, as off-topic as this is, that there really is a tomb for the victims of abortion. They’re acknowledged by somebody. :).
Gingi,
Your article brought the Book of Job to my mind. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Book of Job, or maybe you have forgotten it. Do you remember when, using facile and shallow logic, Job’s Comforters tried to ascribe Job’s suffering to some sin or unrighteousness? Do you remember God’s response to Job’s Comforters?
42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
Guess how you relate to the lesson of the Book of Job. Do you prefer to be called Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar?
Are you a hypocrite of the worst kind PIP? Are you a fraud?
Posted by: Jasper at March 25, 2009 12:59 PM
Hey moderators, does putting a question mark at the end of an insult make it ok?
PIP,
I don’t think that anyone is saying that God is deliberately punishing innocents here. When we say that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children it means that our sins affect not only the one who sinned but everyone around the sinner — either directly or indirectly. For example, if a drug addict becomes pregnant and continues to abuse drugs then all too often the baby suffers in one or another doesn’t it? Is God punishing that baby? No! It was the mother’s sin. There is no such thing as private sins — they affect the whole of humankind in one way or another. When we embrace grave evil then we open the door to grave evil on those around us. God however, can still bring something good out of any tragedy. Did God want those children to die? No! Tragedies like this can sometimes open the eyes of the spiritually blind. I heard the testimony of a doctor who routinely performed abortions. His little daughter was hit and killed by a car. His daughter’s tragic death was devastating but it made him realize how life is a precious gift and that he was destroying it. He stopped killing the unborn. Was God punishing him or his daughter? No! He brought great good out of a horribly tragic situation.
Yes Jasper, I am one big fraud. Now look up the Catholic views on creation and the death penalty like a good boy.
Eileen, from a Christian perspective, that makes sense. That this was tragic, we hope he is comforted in his grief and sorry, and hope that he will soon see the error in his ways.
However, this is different than what some on this thread, and the article in general, are saying.
sorrow*
Again, are you a Christian or are you just using God to make cheap-shots at pro-lifers?
“Hey moderators, does putting a question mark at the end of an insult make it ok?”
Well see, Jasper normally says stuff like this or worse, and when some people call him on it, and he gets the privilege of deleting it himself if he wants. Or, he gets the privilege of deleting anything he wants out of anger, and occasionally decides to post them again.
I wouldn’t say the moderation standards here are very constant.
Jasper, we’ve been through this, remember? I don’t know how many times I have to tell you.
Regardless, it is besides the point. If you think all pro-lifers should consider this tragedy some sort of ironic disgusting God-play then sure, don’t call me a pro-lifer. I don’t want to be associated with this article whatsoever.
Instead of arguing, perhaps we ought to focus our attentions on advocating love
THANK YOU, Vannah! This thread troubles me. Is there something ironic in this story? Yes. Is it something that has merit as news? Perhaps. But is NOW the proper time to report it?
I know what it’s like to lose someone unexpectedly. It’s a pain so raw that words can’t describe it. I cannot imagine what it’s like to lose an entire family except that the misery must defy description. As someone said above, I pray for the repose of the souls who died. I pray for the surviving family, even if one of them happens to be involved in the abortion industry. Why? Because Jesus commanded me to love my enemies (Mt 5:44). IMHO loving my enemy means giving him time to grieve in the same way that I would want those who oppose me to give me time to grieve.
I don’t believe for one moment that God caused this plane crash. But he has allowed it. I am in no position to speculate why. If I do, I am presuming to know the mind of God (Is 55:8, Mt 16:23).
If I can’t know the mind of God, then the best I can do is to try to live according to the two commands that Jesus said were the greatest of all: Love of God and Love of Neighbor (Mt 22:36-39).
This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that if there is to be any conversion, as some here hope, it will come from the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart of one he longs for, and not from me or anyone else pointing out a painful irony.
Fed Up — thanks for your post @ 1:47pm
All this gloating over the death of those passengers is really giving Satan a chubby.
Family Planning Associates performed my tubal ligation in 2003 so that I don’t have to use “murderous” birth control methods or have abortions any more. I hope that they continue to prosper.
oops… my mistake… i earlier posted a link about a cemetary in Michigan by mistake…
here’s what i should have posted:
“On Memorial Day I attended Mass at Holy Cross Cemetery at 1601 Mullowney Lane. Following Mass we were invited to join the Knights of Columbus to pray the rosary at the tomb of the unborn. This memorial, located a short distance west of the chapel, was erected by the citywide Councils of the Knights of Columbus and dedicated to all babies who have died because of abortion. It is in a serene setting with a bench and beautiful flowers.”
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/06/06/opinion/letters/40-tomb.txt
Okay, that’s the second time this claim has been made here and no one has refuted it is. Gingi? Jill? Anyone? Is there such a tomb in the cemetery or was this concocted as is being claimed??
Posted by: asitis at March 25, 2009 10:16 AM
omg, many cemeteries now have a tomb to the unborn. Good grief I’m surprised you will take Hank’s word for it. Oh I forgot, he’s an atheist, so he MUST be reputable. lol
Tragedies like this can sometimes open the eyes of the spiritually blind. I heard the testimony of a doctor who routinely performed abortions. His little daughter was hit and killed by a car. His daughter’s tragic death was devastating but it made him realize how life is a precious gift and that he was destroying it. He stopped killing the unborn. Was God punishing him or his daughter? No! He brought great good out of a horribly tragic situation.
Posted by: Eileen #2 at March 25, 2009 1:25 PM
this is absolutely how things often work. There is an economy to damnation as well as salvation.
Thanks, Fed Up. I loved your post.
Hi, PrettyinPink!
I have to say that I agree with Fed Up in that we cannot presume to know what God wanted, if He made this plane go down or if He allowed it to happen. I don’t think that God had, however, by NO means cruel intentions for the family. They were children…
All people make mistakes and yes, abortion, is horrible, but we don’t know why that plane went down. All that we can do is hope and pray that everyone heals and experiences God’s love and the best love that we can give them. Leave the reasoning up to God; obviously, as we’ve seen by the legalization of everything from abortion to slavery and the fact that “Rhiannon” only made it to number eleven on the music charts, human reasoning is pretty flawed.
I am having a really hard time when I think of what this family is going through today. To see so many family members perish in a fiery crash….it hurts.
Also,
instead of just dropping by and throwing out some zingers maybe some commenters on this thread might want to stay awhile and engage in meaningful dialogue? Just a thought. :)
Anonymous comments will be deleted.
Hey Vannah! I agree with you. We don’t know why these things happen and can only hope that these people are comforted in their time of need.
I just have a problem with those who make this into a big ‘lesson’ about ‘God’s Wrath’ and some of the tasteless things that were mentioned in the article and some of the comments here about the families. When something bad happens to good people they are ‘testing their faith’ but if something bad happens to bad people, God is ‘disciplining them’? I don’t think this kind of theology is consistent with Jesus’ teachings.
I understand that the author hasn’t been open to criticism, either. Most of the people I’ve seen have e-mailed her about the inappropriateness of her article have gotten responses like “I can only assume you are pro-choice” and “why don’t you express this concern to all of those dead unborn babies”? This is shameful. If every life is precious, demeaning these children in such a way is beyond disgusting. I hope you guys can understand why I’m upset about the article at the least.
PIP,
How do you frame this tragedy in light of what you know about Jesus and His teachings? I am not setting you up. I really want to know what PIP thinks.
Clarification: God does not cause evil! Satan does. God certainly allows it to happen, just as many parents who have to show tough love to their children who are not honoring or obeying God or them, but human beings make choices and those choices certainly have consequences, some of which can be very bad. Nothing happens without God’s knowledge, but it does not mean He wills it or wants it or that He is happy that these horrible things happen. He hurts with those who hurt and cries with those who mourn and comforts them if they ask. But He is a loving God and He neither made nor desires puppets. That’s why He gave us all a free will. The effect of sin is evil. Simple as that. There is a spiritual dimension that many people are not aware of. God is always there. But satan and his evil spirits, demons are also around, especially around abortion clinics and places where God’s laws are being ignored and broken. The infestation and defilement is extreme and it becomes easier and easier for those demons to act, to cause bad things to happen, because human beings literally give them permission–they give them grounds and rights–to be there and to act. When people die before their time, as these people did in this plane crash, sometimes it is attributed to a premature death spirit, which is also responsible for the death of unborn children. Prayer warriors can and do make a difference, but because of the secularization of our country and the dismantling of a godly society by atheists and the amount and types of sin, the enemy has gained a lot of ground. The good news is that we have a very loving God Who waits with open arms to those who are ready to repent. The greater the sinner the greater the mercy. Let us all pray and work for an end to abortion, so that no more children have to die before their time.
PIP:
Discipline and puishment are very, very different. Discipline is done out of love and for the good of another. Punishment is done for vengeance and in retaliation for a wrong suffered.
I know that the words punishment and discpline ar used interchagably in the Bible, however, we must always look at the subject in context. Chapter 12 of Hebrews deals with this subject:
“Hebrews 12:1-12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. 4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” 7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. 12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.”
I would very gladly accept God’s discipline as He sees fit but I don’t ever want to suffer His punishment. The consequences of discpline result in eternal life.
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him
—————
The punishment for sin is always death:
Romans 6:22-23
22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Micah 5:15
I will take vengeance in anger and wrath upon the nations that have not obeyed me.
Romans 12:18-20 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. 20On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
I was trying to think of the difference between Gingi Edmonds and a common vulture, and then I remembered that vultures serve a useful purpose.
Carla: I think this is something exceptionally tragic and we should let those who had loved ones in the crash grieve in peace. I’m sure there are families of abortionists that crash in planes that aren’t in a cemetery, too. There is no way of knowing why these things happen.
I don’t purport to speak for God in any way shape or form, but I think it is clear that God as revealed in the NT was not vindictive in the way it was thought in the OT. Back then, if you got sick, God was mad at you. You were turned away, shunned.
In the NT Jesus made an effort to spend time with and healed the sick. He lived in that context where you were in good moral standing if you were rich, healthy, etc, and he showed us that this view was not as simple as it seemed.
So I don’t try to figure out why God might have “made” that plane crash or even if he did or not. I just hope that those involved find the comfort they are seeking. They need support, not condemnation or pointing fingers going “IRONIC!” That is just cruelty in action that I doubt is a Christian act.
“When something bad happens to good people they are ‘testing their faith’ but if something bad happens to bad people, God is ‘disciplining them’? I don’t think this kind of theology is consistent with Jesus’ teachings…….
Posted by: prettyinpink at March 25, 2009 2:34 PM”
For the record PIP, I never said this.
I made a distinction between discipline and punishment.
Both are real, both happen, we must account for the difference.
As Carla asked, please give us your take on this.
PIP:
Please read the book of Revelation and them tell me how this changes your skewed view of Jesus.
He hates sin, He punishes sin, He will destroy evil and all associated with it.
Like I stated before, Jesus came first as the Lamb of God and that is precisley why the Jewish heirarchy rejected Him, however, when He comes again He will come as an avending King and this is why the Jews will accept Him.
So HisMan,
When we lock up criminals for doing crimes is that a punishment or a discipline?
See where I am getting at…claiming that the death of these children or the near death of your child was “for discipline” is not practically different than Him doing it to punish people for their sins. You don’t know the motivations behind it more than anyone else does.
After all, like you quoted “the punishment for sin is death.”
And here we go into the WBC philosophy: therefore, if you die, you’ve sinned, and you are going to hell.
HisMan,
I don’t interpret Revelation like you do, I can tell you for a fact. But that’s another conversation for another day.
I am my own worst enemy.
I came back to this trainwreck of a thread on my own accord, to see if anything had changed since I first posted. It hasn’t. It’s my fault for visiting this again…now the disgust is refreshed.
It’s bad enough it was posted and open for comment in the first place. But for all who have taken this opportunity to comment about this family’s fresh demise, to offer your condolences but still felt compelled to mention their connection to abortion, and now cannot understand why others are offended and admonished you for the undercurrent of judgement, gloating, finger wagging or some level of schadenfreude…however innocent you believed your response to be, I will simplify the offense:
You should have never said anything.
You should have never said anything.
You should have never said anything.
Oh, just name names and be done with it Danielle. :)
You came on here to tell others not to say anything?
I do agree though that there is some pretty ugly stuff being said.
Carla, in my humble opinion the entire thread should be taken down. There is no story here, just tragedy. And some attempt to exploit the sufferings of others to make a political or religious pont. Delete the whole string.
Hi Carla,
I have to admit I have found some of these comments unsettling. This is a tragedy, period.
Apparently one of the victims was a doctor who had done missionary work. Several children were involved.
If people see this as some kind of divine retribution it is their right. I do not.
I have seen more than my share of tragedies that have made absolutely no sense, and evil people who seem to walk free and enjoy life to be convinced there is no rhyme or reason to any of this.
We can offer our prayers and concern for this family. We can also respectfully leave them in peace.
I appreciate that Hal. Not my call.
I would never have known about the connection to abortion or the Tomb of the Unborn if it hadn’t been up. I read about the crash on Foxnews and came here to find out the rest.
I agree with Hal. My remarks were intended for my fellow prolifers here. They weren’t intended to rub salt in the wounds of those grieving.
There may be a time to point out the irony of this tragedy. But now just doesn’t seem like the time. It feels very disrespectful.
If we believe all life is sacred, then we respect the loss of life that happened in this tragedy irrespective of our views about some who grieve for them.
Hi Mary,
After awhile I just won’t be back on this thread. I feel terrible about what happened to all of those family members. I have been praying for the remaining family members.
If you go to http://www.michaelsavage.com and scroll down toward the bottom you will find a very nice write up on the victims. Apparently there’s a possiblity the plane was overloaded, as well as ice on the wings.
Just leave these people and their survivors in peace.
I agree. I am ending my part of the conversation too.
“omg, many cemeteries now have a tomb to the unborn. Good grief I’m surprised you will take Hank’s word for it. Oh I forgot, he’s an atheist, so he MUST be reputable. lol”
OMG, I took the cemetaery owner’s word for it as well too Patricia and I didn’t confirm that he is an atheist as well! I better get on that…….
I don’t see anybody bashing the family. This thread should stay up. Part of this story is that the father owns the biggest abortion-mill chain in California.
the only one doing the finger pointing are PIP and other pro-abortion people…
Hal, Danielle, Taz..
to my mind, the point of the story Jill posted was not that the family is/was/may be being punished by God – because none of us is in any position to say this. Only God knows why this plane crashed where it did, when it did.
To me, the point of Jill’s post was that
1. the media ignored the fact that this person owned an abortion chain. Why?
Usually when there is a tragedy of this magnitude and the media does an article, particulars about the family are published. If Feldkamp owned a beer chain, we would have been told this in the story. For whatever reason, the media chose to IGNORE the specific information that he owned an abortion chain.
AND
2. the hope that the tragedy might lead Feldkamp to consider the inevitability of death and the afterlife. This in light of the fact that he owns a chain of abortion clinics. To Feldkamp, it may just be a mere business transaction. Maybe the tragedy might help him to re-evaluate his life and how he’s lived as many of us do when confronted with the deaths of loved ones.
I agree with Mary, Danielle, hal, Carla, etc.
Jill, Hal said it right. You should remove this entire post. At the very least because it does not serve you well.
Jasper,
These victims are totally innocent people. I don’t care if the father is Attila the Hun.
Respect and concern can and should be shown.
People are entitled to believe whatever they so choose, but the mark of real class is knowing when to keep your opinions to yourself.
@prettyinpink
“The God I know doesn’t kill children in plane accidents so that the business man will know what it feels like for God when abortions happen, either.”
Please read Job.
Thank you.
Jasper, even if someone has a news scoop, it’s still charitable to recall that there is a season and a time for everything. Being first doesn’t always mean being right.
Mary,
who attacked the victims in the crash?
Jasper,
I prefer not to name names. Just review some of these posts. No the victims are not being personally attacked, but the fact they are Feldkamps family is being played upon.
This is a time to show respect to victims and family alike, and keep personal beliefs and opinions to oneself. Unless God Himself has personally informed someone as to how and why these victims died, no one should assume to know. I don’t believe it should even be commented on. That’s my opinion for what its worth.
@Carla:
“well they’ve probably got some pretty nasty demons hanging around this family”
Posted by: angel at March 24, 2009 5:52 PM
“Man, talk about coincidence!”
Posted by: Lauren at March 24, 2009 6:05 PM
“While this is tragic, it doesn’t surprise me one bit and confirms the doctrine of the shedding of innocent blood.”
Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 6:16 PM
“Whether or not it was meant to be ” I told you so”, it seems like a newsworthy coincidence.”
Posted by: Alex at March 24, 2009 6:24 PM
“Amen! Those who doubt the presence of our Lord, take heed!”
Posted by: Richard at March 24, 2009 7:16 PM
“Good riddance. Unfortunately others were aboard, but that cretin had it coming.”
Posted by: Johanan at March 24, 2009 9:05 PM
“But maybe Feldkamp will reflect on what mass death of innocents really is and divest himself of his unholy holdings”
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2009 9:47 PM
“the detailed reporting on facts pertaining to the church (Feldkamp DOES own 17 baby-slaughtering mills) will result in prayer for his family and his soul.”
Posted by: Gingi Edmonds at March 24, 2009 10:31 PM
“I think instead of an ‘I told you so’…it was more like, ‘we tried to tell you’…’we warned you.’ When you deal in the ‘business of death’ he did (17 abortion clinics), you are dealing with the devil…As my grandpa used to say, ‘You can’t dance with the devil and not get burned.'”
Posted by: Suzi at March 24, 2009 10:48 PM
“I don’t think that anyone ought to consider this karma or retribution (though, thankfully, no one here has mentioned that), though there is an awful lot of poetic justice in many things that God does.”
Posted by: Vannah at March 24, 2009 11:31 PM
“It’s tragic that now Mr Feldkamp knows the loss God feels when his children die prematurely.”
Posted by: Ed at March 24, 2009 11:39 PM
“God did not take those innocent people from us, but He does open our eyes and reveal truth in every situation. The truth is that if that plane were boarded with all the men and women who aborted babies, no one would really care, or we’d say ‘karma’.”
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2009 11:56 PM
“I do know that God often uses lightening bolts and two by fours to get His People’s attention – this is Bud’s attention getter – trust me!”
Posted by: Lee at March 25, 2009 12:22 AM
“Today is the acceptable time for Mr. Feldkamp and all those others who deal in death and blood for money to repent.”
Posted by: prayerwarrior4Jesus at March 25, 2009 12:58 AM
“But then, he went on in the ‘baby killing business’, how can anyone be surprised that something so horrific has happened to him?”
Posted by: Suzi at March 25, 2009 2:54 AM
“That Feldkamp’s family family died so close to the Tomb of the Unborns is indeed poetic. I can’t say it’s poetic justice, that’s God’s domain, but it is poetic.”
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 25, 2009 2:56 AM
“That said, God will and does hold accountable those who despise and trample upon life and righteousness and the grace of God; those who mock God and Christ by their words and their deeds.”
Posted by: Raymond V Banner at March 25, 2009 10:29 AM
“He is a loving Father, but He’s also a just Judge…Our sympathies should be turned toward the thousands of little boys and girls who have been slaughtered in Feldkamp’s Death Camps.”
Posted by: Stephanie at March 25, 2009 12:10 PM
Danielle: there are a lot of spiritual truths in those quotes.
It doesn’t mean they were meant without compassion.
and btw, the person who wrote this was angel:
“omg, many cemeteries now have a tomb to the unborn. Good grief I’m surprised you will take Hank’s word for it. Oh I forgot, he’s an atheist, so he MUST be reputable. lol”
just so you know asitis.
And this is how you want to present your cause Jill?
Well, for a god who allegedly killed thousands of innocent children in Sodom and Gomorrah because of their grownups’ lusty behaviour this plane carnage would be a minor piece of work.
asitis,
Please use the monikers that people use for themselves. Thank you.
Well, for a god who allegedly killed thousands of innocent children in Sodom and Gomorrah because of their grownups’ lusty behaviour this plane carnage would be a minor piece of work.
Posted by: Pepe at March 25, 2009 3:55 PM
yes and I think we, in our times, prefer to think of God as a benevolent god – but he is also a God of justice.
We’ve done far more than Sodom and Gomorrah EVER did.
asitis,
Please use the monikers that people use for themselves. Thank you.
Posted by: Carla at March 25, 2009 3:57 PM
So you’re saying we are all to call Patricia/toostunnedtolaugh Angel now? How long will that last? So confusing ;)
I’m saying please use the monikers that people use for themselves.
Thank you.
asitis, I have no idea what you are talking about.
But if it helps, angel is short for angela!
“there are a lot of spiritual truths in those quotes.
It doesn’t mean they were meant without compassion”
How wonderful! I am sure they are a great comfort to the family and friends who stumble upon this outpouring of compassion.
Danielle: there are a lot of spiritual truths in those quotes. It doesn’t mean they were meant without compassion.
Posted by: angel at March 25, 2009 3:53 PM
-Angel, that you are still struggling to see the glaring inappropriateness (sp) of this entire post/thread and felt the need to defend the comments above, further underlines what I and many others have already said at this point: There is a time and a place for everything. This was not the time, nor the place. There is tremendous courage, maturity and grace in knowing when to keep your thoughts to yourself and I would encourage you to remember that.
I also agree with the other posters that it would be appropriate to delete this entire commentary. I’ve exhausted pretty much everything I could say regarding this…turning the page on this experience and moving on.
asitis, I have no idea what you are talking about.
But if it helps, angel is short for angela!
Posted by: angel at March 25, 2009 4:06 PM
Sure you don’t. ;)
Well it sure doesn’t stand for angelic!
So you’re saying we are all to call Patricia/toostunnedtolaugh Angel now? How long will that last? So confusing ;)
Posted by: asitis at March 25, 2009 4:04 PM
I’m saying please use the monikers that people use for themselves.
Thank you.
Posted by: Carla at March 25, 2009 4:05 PM
You mean the ones they choose for the time being? Huh?
@prettyinpink
“The God I know doesn’t kill children in plane accidents so that the business man will know what it feels like for God when abortions happen, either.”
Please read Job.
Thank you.
Posted by: robrod at March 25, 2009 3:40 PM
yes God brought his wrath down upon Job who was a righteous man.
Still, being a product of the times, I like to think of God as a merciful judge.
sorry Danielle, I simply don’t agree with you.
Did you read my comment about the point of Jill’s post?
You are free to leave the thread. That is your choice.
I do believe God allowed Satan to try and destroy Job.
But do I really want to get into that now? Hmmm.
Danielle, how is it an attack on the family to point out that it is very coincidental that they crashed into a cemetary that had an unborn children’s memorial? It WAS coincidental.
That’s not a judgement against the family or a statement that I think they’re being punished or anything like that.
It just adds another very sad layer to the story.
Maybe Danielle’s list needs to be put up there again:
“well they’ve probably got some pretty nasty demons hanging around this family”
Posted by: angel at March 24, 2009 5:52 PM
“Man, talk about coincidence!”
Posted by: Lauren at March 24, 2009 6:05 PM
“While this is tragic, it doesn’t surprise me one bit and confirms the doctrine of the shedding of innocent blood.”
Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 6:16 PM
“Whether or not it was meant to be ” I told you so”, it seems like a newsworthy coincidence.”
Posted by: Alex at March 24, 2009 6:24 PM
“Amen! Those who doubt the presence of our Lord, take heed!”
Posted by: Richard at March 24, 2009 7:16 PM
“Good riddance. Unfortunately others were aboard, but that cretin had it coming.”
Posted by: Johanan at March 24, 2009 9:05 PM
“But maybe Feldkamp will reflect on what mass death of innocents really is and divest himself of his unholy holdings”
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2009 9:47 PM
“the detailed reporting on facts pertaining to the church (Feldkamp DOES own 17 baby-slaughtering mills) will result in prayer for his family and his soul.”
Posted by: Gingi Edmonds at March 24, 2009 10:31 PM
“I think instead of an ‘I told you so’…it was more like, ‘we tried to tell you’…’we warned you.’ When you deal in the ‘business of death’ he did (17 abortion clinics), you are dealing with the devil…As my grandpa used to say, ‘You can’t dance with the devil and not get burned.'”
Posted by: Suzi at March 24, 2009 10:48 PM
“I don’t think that anyone ought to consider this karma or retribution (though, thankfully, no one here has mentioned that), though there is an awful lot of poetic justice in many things that God does.”
Posted by: Vannah at March 24, 2009 11:31 PM
“It’s tragic that now Mr Feldkamp knows the loss God feels when his children die prematurely.”
Posted by: Ed at March 24, 2009 11:39 PM
“God did not take those innocent people from us, but He does open our eyes and reveal truth in every situation. The truth is that if that plane were boarded with all the men and women who aborted babies, no one would really care, or we’d say ‘karma’.”
Posted by: Anonymous at March 24, 2009 11:56 PM
“I do know that God often uses lightening bolts and two by fours to get His People’s attention – this is Bud’s attention getter – trust me!”
Posted by: Lee at March 25, 2009 12:22 AM
“Today is the acceptable time for Mr. Feldkamp and all those others who deal in death and blood for money to repent.”
Posted by: prayerwarrior4Jesus at March 25, 2009 12:58 AM
“But then, he went on in the ‘baby killing business’, how can anyone be surprised that something so horrific has happened to him?”
Posted by: Suzi at March 25, 2009 2:54 AM
“That Feldkamp’s family family died so close to the Tomb of the Unborns is indeed poetic. I can’t say it’s poetic justice, that’s God’s domain, but it is poetic.”
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 25, 2009 2:56 AM
“That said, God will and does hold accountable those who despise and trample upon life and righteousness and the grace of God; those who mock God and Christ by their words and their deeds.”
Posted by: Raymond V Banner at March 25, 2009 10:29 AM
“He is a loving Father, but He’s also a just Judge…Our sympathies should be turned toward the thousands of little boys and girls who have been slaughtered in Feldkamp’s Death Camps.”
Posted by: Stephanie at March 25, 2009 12:10 PM
Posted by: Lauren at March 25, 2009 4:20 PM
agreed
there are no coincidences with God.
Specifically why is seeing a life event as a call or stimulus seen as cruel?
Many people are incited to action by these kinds of events.
It could be seen as too much ego to think that one is important enough for God to intervene in a personal way. But there’s that sparrow business in the Christian Bible, and the whole salvation story. In some other religions the interventions seem to be built in, or automatic.
On the other hand, some atheist religions reject the concept of a Creator based upon bad life events, or killing on a massive scale, which is allowed to occur.
According to your theology, is ten thousand deaths per year sufficient to incite or ALLOW an intevention? What kind is appropriate? Where to innocents go when they die?
Contemplating the relationship of the Creator to created beings is a big job.
I do believe God allowed Satan to try and destroy Job. But do I really want to get into that now? Hmmm.
THanks, I was chomping at the bit to point that out but thought better of it.
I think I’m done with this thread. I’ll end it with agreement with Danielle’s line …
There is tremendous courage, maturity and grace in knowing when to keep your thoughts to yourself
I can’t believe some of these comments.
What’s more, some of you claim to follow Jesus.
Shame on all of you.
What makes this story important is not what the media reported, but what they DID NOT report. That is very bad journalism. As someone else noted earlier, had he been the owner of pizza parlors or a string of transmission shops, it would have been reported. They may not have known about the Tomb of the Unborn, but a good reporter would have reported everything they could without withholding important information because of a certain ideology. And regardless of what some posters have said, it is newsworthy that it happened in that place. Nothing is circumstantial.
My goodness, this does look a bit like the infamous dancing in the streets when the planes hit the WTC. Making a sad face when you do it doesn’t make it okay. Whatever your disagreements with a person or group of people are, their darkest and saddest hours are not the time to bring them up.
I wouldn’t comment at all but I suppose that if this were my family, and I stumbled upon this website, I would want to see that it was only a minority of people who said such things. So I will try to be part of a majority who express sadness and empathy, regardless of my religious or political views, or anyone else’s. I extend my most heartfelt sympathies for the friends and family of the victims. I cannot imagine what such a loss must be like, nor can I imagine how a person gets through something like that. Surely anyone who does is a stronger person than myself.
Naneille:
If you’re going to quote me please don’t act like a typical Liberal and use the quote partially to advance your agenda. Here’s the complete quote of that thought expressing the innocence of the children and the willingness of God to forgive:
“While this is tragic, it doesn’t surprise me one bit and confirms the doctrine of the shedding of innocent blood. God is not mocked. I especially grieve for the innocent 7 children who died. We know where they are don’t we? Mr. Feldkamp can still repent and be forgiven. Hopefully this will get his attention…..
Posted by: HisMan at March 24, 2009 6:16 PM”
PIP:
I certainly did not say God killed these children. He MAY HAVE allowed it and the allowing of it is punishment enough. I do think God’s heart breaks when we sin because He knows how sin destroys us.
What I did say was that God warns us over and over again in love about our sin so that He can maintain His hand of protetion over us, our loved ones and our families. Read Psalm 91.
Exodus 20:4-6 “4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
The sin of abortion is idolatrous. Pursuing money over God is idolatrous.
Seems to me you don’t like that part about anyone telling you how to live, including God. Like I said before you are content with making God in your own image.
I don’t think you even read my posts completely or even tried to understand them in context.
I am not going to waste my precious time any more on your questions only to have you try to shoot holes through the comments.
I find you to be very immature and a seeker and coveter of attention not to mention extremely disrepectful.
Grow up.
Alexandra, who is dancing?
I am very, very sorry for the families loss. I don’t think anyone is celebrating the loss of innocent life.
“My goodness, this does look a bit like the infamous dancing in the streets when the planes hit the WTC.”
Hey Ass,
nobody is dancing in the streets.
Alexandria:
I am certainly not danncing in the streets over this. In fact, I am heart broken. My son is a pliot. When I wake up in the morning I ask the Lord to protect my family and often I pray Psalm 91 over them substituting their names into the Psalm.
God absolutely does not want us to rejoice over the misfortune of others. However, in love, I will continue to warn people about the evils of abortion and how it opens us up to all sorts of destruction.
Lauren, I think that many of the comments Danielle highlighted were inappropriate and nearly exuberant. “Amen”‘s and “good riddance”‘s, to be sure. Can you look over that list and tell me that you don’t think there’s something wrong? For the record, while the tone of your comment bothered me — it seemed a bit cavalier or careless — I don’t really have any objections with what you said.
And I can tell you, as someone who lost more than a couple loved ones in the World Trade Center, I’d have probably never spoken again to anyone who came up to me and said, “You know, it was really sad, but when you dance with the devil you get burned, and sometimes innocent blood needs to be shed to wake people up.” I say that as someone who thinks our country has done a lot of things wrong internationally, both before 9/11 and after. When I was sitting by the phone counting the hours against likely dehydration for any survivors (however improbable), or even when I was standing there breathing the sweetly metallic and impossible to ignore scents in the air — that was not the appropriate time, in my opinion, to talk about whether or not the shedding of innocent blood was a necessary wake-up call. I don’t think that’s a conversation that should be silenced — I actually think it’s one we need to have, repeatedly — but I certainly think there’s a time and place to have it.
Hey Ass,
Oh, lovely. It is ALWAYS a pleasure talking to people here, that’s for sure.
Alexandra, I’m sorry for the loss of your friends.
I wasn’t being caviler. When I read of the connection I was very much affected by it. It actually goes well beyond coincidental into very weird, distrubing territory which was something I felt but didn’t acurately capture, apparently.
I saw a couple of inappropriate comments. Someone said something along the lines of “good ridance, but sorry about the family” presumeably thinking that the man himself had died as well. I don’t think that was appropriate, but I also dont think that was said by a frequent commenter.
Most of the other comments were some variation of ‘perhaps this will open the father’s eyes.’
I think that was mostly said in the spirit of perhaps something good will come out of tragedy. I generally don’t say things like that because it usually doesn’t comfort the person who just lost a loved one. However I think most of the people who did say that sort of thing legitimately do care about the family and the man and want him to find comfort in God.
I can agree that not all that was said was helpful, but I don’t think it was said in the spirit of “dancing in the street.”
I guess that it seems callous, to me — like when we had pro-choicers here insisting that they would tell a distraught woman who had a miscarriage that she’d actually had a spontaneous abortion. It doesn’t matter if you’re right or not — that’s entirely beside the point. What matters is that people are hurting, and I don’t think that’s the appropriate time to debate whether a woman who’s miscarried should just buck up and accept that people will call it an abortion, or whether God is trying to wake up one man by killing innocent children.
A co-worker of mine, whose parents are immigrants, lost his younger brother last year. The kid was 12 and got hit by a truck walking home from school. Immediately, before they’d even had a funeral, some of his neighbors sent around a newsletter about how this tragedy was a good opportunity to discuss how to deal with the “problem” of immigrants walking everywhere, due to not having enough cars or not having the time to drive kids everywhere. I thought that was pretty inappropriate too, and while no one sent the newsletter to my co-worker’s family, they obviously heard of it and eventually saw it. Whether the community thinks it’s a discussion that needs to happen or not, I think it’s pretty callous to jump to the discussion immediately.
I don’t think that it’s okay to say hurtful things, even if they’re necessary, just because you think they need to be said — I think that time and place matter a lot.
Alexandra, I’m not saying that the things said in this thread were appropriate or not appropriate. I’m just saying that no one is “dancing in the street.”
I think we should let people mourn, and give them information about God’s love. I’m not claiming that all the people in this thread were “right” to say what they’ve said. All I’m saying is that they aren’t celebrating what happened. I think that is an important distinction.
Hey dude that told me to read Job, I was specifically responding to the guy who said, “”It’s tragic that now Mr Feldkamp knows the loss God feels when his children die prematurely.”
Danielle chopped comments out of context in order to make them appear heartless. This is a bit of compulsive manipulation.
I recommend not to let abortion apologists manipulate you into feeling bad for noting that a tragedy might call people to address personal shortcomings, sins, crimes against humanity, etc.
There are plenty of practical atheists, (the broods of vipers) including Obama, who use the Words which they do not believe, to manipulate those who do believe.
The same media, which has AIG executives (who worked hard for their bonuses) fearing for their lives for receiving contractually promised income, assiduously protected the Feldkamp family from criticism for their business investments in the slaughter of human innocents. The news media’s mechanism of calling them the super-rich, and listing only their legitimate businesses was a mere diversion.
I do not apologize for noting this disparity, nor for the continual calls (which long preceded this event) for the Feldkamps to remove themselves from the abortion business.
Alexandra,
sorry about a** comment. I just ran out of patience today…
S
This was posted on the 20th. Today, 3/25/09, I linked to your article with: “CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH”
http://www.obamarules7.blogspot.com “WHAT IF ….”
So how many of you pro-lifers have adopted several crackbabies or actually helped living children?
Lauren, of course I was being hyperbolic, but I didn’t say anyone was dancing. I said this looks a bit like the infamous dancing in the street, and that just because you have the decency to make an appropriately sad face doesn’t excuse some of the comments here.
Most of the people here weren’t celebrating — some definitely seemed to be. Regardless, I found a lot of things said to be pretty unnecessary.
It’s cool, though, I can always use a good reminder of what kind of person I want to be, and what kind of person I don’t want to be.
Ginger, believe it or not we don’t report our every charitable act to the National Pro-Life Charity Database.
Alexandra, it isn’t hyperbole when you accuse us of something different than the intent of the comments.
Hyperbole deals in variance of degree. There is a more substantaive difference than degree between what was said here and celebration.
“So how many of you pro-lifers have adopted several crackbabies or actually helped living children? ”
We only like to help dead children.
Thank you, Lauren, for your comment to Ginger. We also don’t have to keep a list and report to others the good that we do. God
takes everything into account. “But take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them, otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.” It is enough to know that we are doing the will of the Father, when He directs us to do so.
Well, then, Lauren, we’ll just have to disagree. I don’t think I accused anyone of dancing, and I do think that it is a difference of degree, not substance, when you’re talking about people saying that it’s poetic justice or going on about innocent blood doctrines.
Bobby Bambino, dead babies who shouldn’t be dead and should be allowed to live as you and I had the opportunity and a God-given right to do so. The topic here is abortion and the evil that it produces and invites. Yes, at the end of the day there are 4,000 dead babies in this country alone everyday. Somebody has to speak for them…they have no voice!
Alexandra, can you not see that the people who posted those scriptured are grieving for the family? They are heartbroken that this occured and are praying for the family left behind. If God allowed this as a form of judgement (and I’m definitely not saying that he DID) Christians would STILL feel immense saddness for the family.
We do not want to see anyone suffer or die, especially those who are not near the Lord.
It is about as far from celebration as you can get!
I’m trying so hard to make this point because I think your reaction to what has been said is stiming from a lack of understanding of Christian theology that is leading you to misinterpret a lot of what has been said.
Those who are concerned for the souls of this family are NOT celebrating in any way.
PrayWarrior,
Right, indeed. Just in case it didn’t come off correctly, I was being sarcastic above. Ginger asked if we “[help] living children?”, which seems to imply that unborn children are dead.
PiP, if you are still reading this, I would very much like to get hold of you.
I’m trying so hard to make this point because I think your reaction to what has been said is stiming from a lack of understanding of Christian theology that is leading you to misinterpret a lot of what has been said.
I understand Christian theology well enough. I understand why people think that the things they’re saying are caring, but I still think that there are times when compassion trumps correctness, however briefly. I wouldn’t expect anyone here to go up to someone whose atheist mother just died and say, “Well, maybe the fact that your mom is probably in hell now will spur you to repent and ask for forgiveness.” It’s not like you have to lie and say that someone’s mom is in heaven, but there is a certain grace in knowing when to simply express sympathy.
Jasper, I appreciate your apology. I’ve stood up for you in the past when you had outbursts and gone on post-deleting rampages, but at this point I’m out of patience myself.
I guess I’m done here, at least for a little while. I appreciate the conversation and the many ways in which talking to people here has helped me become a better person.
Alexandra, again I never said it WAS appropriate for people to post what they did.
I’m just saying that they weren’t celebrating.
I’m sorry to see you leave.
I see Jasper is showing what a classy guy he is, as usual.
I could have sworn I read somewhere in Jill’s guidelines that swearing and name-calling weren’t allowed.
I guess some people, ones who agree with Jill, don’t have to adhere to the rules.
Jerimiah, Jasper said he was sorry.
Everyone has to follow the rules. People on both sides have had posts deleted when they break the rules.
Jill:
DON’T YOU DARE TAKE DOWN THIS THREAD.
Hal, you can’t face the horror of abortion, the abortion of your two daughters. That is why you defend it. That is why you ask this thread to be removed. All under the pretense of care for this family.
If you really, really cared about this family, your own family or any one else, you wouldn’t curse and blaspheme God and oppose everything He represents. You wouldn’t be pro-abortion, you wouldn’t be pro-death.
Where was your compassion and concern when you decided to let your two children be ripped apart and thrown into the trash at the hands of a third person? You were supposed to protect them from the executioner not help him. Tell me this Hal, what kind of mind can feel compassion for this family and not feel compassion for the 1 billion children who have been murdered by abortion in our lifetime alone? What kind of mind can allow his own children to be murdered by abortion? And even beyond that promote even more abortion. Are children in the womb any different than those innocent children that died in that plane crash? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
You are a typical Obamanite. Smile big while he promotes more abortion, takes your money, destroys your church, and ruins your country.
Go play your tricks and mind games somewhere else.
“If you really, really cared about this family, your own family or any one else, you wouldn’t curse and blaspheme God and oppose everything He represents. You wouldn’t be pro-abortion, you wouldn’t be pro-death.”
It’s because of my compassion I do these things. Someday you’ll understand.
Hal, no it is because of your misplaced sense of compassion you do those things. You believe a child is better off dead than “unwanted” and a woman is better off killing her child than having any unpleasant feelings.
Someday you’ll understand in your zeal for “compassion” you supported the most horrific of all things, a mother killing her child.
“It’s because of my compassion I do these things. Someday you’ll understand.
Posted by: Hal at March 25, 2009 9:46 PM”
Admit it Hal, that you are lost.
Wow.
Ginger,
Can you tell us how much of the money the abortion industry rakes in has been donated to or used to establish drug and alcohol rehabilitation centers for pregnant women?
How much has gone to pregnant women in need?
Also if abortion solves the problem of drug addicted babies, why are there drug addicted babies?
This sad situation reminds me of the film “The Boy in the Striped Pajamas”. So sad.
there are no coincidences with God.
Posted by: angel at March 25, 2009 4:25 PM
Actually, according to Jesus Christ who is fully God, there ARE “coincidences” or as He put it “accidents” or “chance” happenings in life. He expicitly said so Himself in Luke 10:31.
Luke 10:31 “Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Also, Jesus Christ presented the tragedies He was talking about in Luke 13:1-5 as tragedies that did NOT occur due to those suffering being the “worst” sinners. Read what He said for yourself.
Luke 13:1-4 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all [other] Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 “Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all [other] men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
Bad:
Luke 10:31 is in a parable about the Good Samaritan. It was a story used to convey a principle. It didn’t actually happen. Or do you think the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents actually happened too?
or…..
Are you saying that God is not omniscient? Because if you are, that is the only way there can be “chance” happenings and we should reject all of the other passages that express God’s sovereignty over everything, even time itself.
I suggest you study this passage:
Acts 17:25-27 “25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.”
And your Luke 13:1-4 is used improperly. Jesus was talking to non-believers who were subject to needing repentance in this passage. He was expressing that all are sinner and need to repent. This does not negate all the other verses in the Bible that warn us about the consequences of sin both in the here and now and in the afterlife.
If you are truly seeking God I will help you. If you have a pro-abortion agenda and wish to poison the minds of those that visit this site, take your bad theology and go somewhere else because it won’t work here. I will challenge you every time I see you spew your heresy.
Hey there Jen- I’m leaving a comment on your blog :)
What’s wrong with all of you people? People died, so you decide to fight? That it was the hand of God, or that God doesn’t exist and Christians are evil?! About Pro life or Pro Choice?! You all yell your hate at each other and forget to be human, on both sides. You forget the love that makes you human. A true measure of a man isn’t whether they can love those that agree with him. It’s if they can face someone who doesn’t, and love them regardless. Judging from what I’ve seen, very few of you can honestly say that.
Yet more proof about how disgusting and vomitous the religious really are.
You are the sick who oppose single mothers getting social grants, oppose single mothers having careers, oppose their children getting public healthcare, and then talk about what a blight the kids are on society when they are grown. Life, is only sacred so long as it can be used for political point scoring.
Children are there to punish their parents – the mother who cannot handle them, the “sinful” grandfather who will mourn them. There is no joy in children for the religious right, just torment.
If Jesus existed and came back tommorow he would caste you aside as nothing more than self-righteous hypocrites, not even good enough for hell.
Truelove, there are many people here who were discussing, not yelling.
Taliesan, you’ve sure errected a huge strawman! Of course, none of what you’re saying is remotely true.
Anyone who would rejoice in the deaths of a family, for any reason, is not a Christian. Jesus would cast you out of the Temple for your arrogance and cruelty.
Taliesan,
It was abortion advocates that argued abortion was needed to eliminate those who would otherwise grow to be blights on society.
It was abortion advocates that argued how abortion would save money on health care and welfare benefits.
It was abortion advocates who argued what a burden “unwanted” children really are on their mothers and families.
And this is why I don’t believe in God. For so-called “Godly” people to be so virulently against a woman’s right to choose what happens in or to her body, yet turn a blind eye to the very REAL suffering that goes on in our world, and even in our own country, with regards to poverty, sickness, starvation, unemployment, warfare, and greed-filled profiteering from the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, is to me, completely unforgiveable.
Why don’t people who call themselves “pro-life” focus on embettering and protecting the lives of people who are already OUT of the womb, for a change? I think your God would be pleased if you valued actual LIVING, BREATHING human lives as much as, or even more than, those of the zygotes and the blastocysts.
And this is why I don’t believe in God
posted by michelle.
Who cares if you believe in God. It all began with all those acts of God. Such as hurricanes, volcanoes, and your insurance policy that doesn’t pay off for those acts of God.
Your just a failed romantic wishing for the world to conform to your infantile failure to understand that the world is one giant killing machine.
And your here to preach about how killing some baby in the womb, is actually a right of a women to be just another part of the killing machine.
Tell us, what have you done lately to kill something, and conform to the only truthful statement that all life lives to kill.
Once you accept that truth, your infantile rage can then be replaced with killing more life to live.
Just like this article about a plane crash. Think God has something to do with it? I bet you do. It fits your cheap thinking.
Michells needs a grief counselor. Upon which she can ask that empty suit why people shoot people in schools while telling them their god ain’t gonna save. Like Columbine.
Hey Michelle, they couldn’y kill God, so they did the next best thing and murdered God by proxy.
Jesus would cast you out of the Temple for your arrogance and cruelty.
Posted by: Hermione at March 26, 2009 6:21 AM
Actually I think God would cast a abortionist blood money grubber out of the temple, since your mixing up the fact that Jesus got hot under the collar because of………….money.
And blood money has got to be high on God’s list to throw you out of a temple.
Kel 9:23:
It’s there for the googling, but:
http://www.popline.org/docs/1584/176728.html
http://archfami.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/9/2/126
(actually, it was really hard to find on Google; hadn’t looked it up in a few years)
Perhaps those who said that we should not be arguing over punishment and discipline are right.
But I think that we all agree that the deaths of the innocent in this manner are tragic.
And even those who are talking about how God might be punishing or disciplining with this tragedy, or even using it, are not talking to family and friends of the deceased. It isn’t like telling someone that their sins caused their child’s death; it’s more like you were discussing it with someone else, not knowing they were nearby, and they overheard.
To those who knew the deceased, I am sorry for your losses. May the God of all Comfort give you peace.
Remember, to Taliesan, the horrendous media coverage of Sarah Palin, her choice of career, her choice not to kill her kid.
The abuse of Bristol by your people is ongoing.
Please address the problems of your side instead of inventing phantom problems on the prolife side.
Note that the disabled people as a rule want nothing more than to contribute to society.
Note the socialists, who wish to parasitize those who contribute to society, would kill the disabled in order to eliminate the competition for our money. Note that socialists give nothing to charity, and seek to remove tax incentives for those who do. Note that Obama gives less than one percent of income to charity.
He’s very generous with our money for his programs. All of the research shows that self identified conservatives are by far the most generous to charity. Google it. I’m not being paid to educate you.
Note the pro aborts trying to force us to pay and participate in their system of gratuitious killing. Don’t act stupid: the Obama HHS proposal and the embryonic research decisions are all in the news.
The leftist solution for the disabled is to kill them. Is it any wonder that the latest little gaffe about the disabled slipped out of Obama’s mouth. The truth is that he thinks they should all be killed prior to or shortly after birth.
You leftists are a real public relations problem, Taliesan.
HI Michelle,
It is abortion providers who do not provide support for women choosing anything other than abortion.
If a fifteen year old pregnant teenager walked into an abortion clinic with no money, no help and no home to go to and no desire to have an abortion what services would be provided to her? NONE!!
I am so sorry you feel the way you feel about ALL prolifers. I know you can’t possibly be judging us all since you don’t even know what any of us are doing on a daily basis to help all of the unwanted, abused and neglected and starving children that abortion was supposed to take care of.
Peace.
Anonymous said,
“How dare you say good ridence. Feldkamp wasnt even on the plane. Innocent women, children , and good men were on the plane. None of them had anything to do with the abortion business.”
Lets remember that the aborted children were Innocent also. And the guilty lived in this case also.
As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.
Proverbs 26:2
We should all look at our lives and repent.
So god didn’t cause the plane to crash, he just allowed it to happen? This sounds like the actions of a mafia boss — “I didn’t break your kneecaps, but I might’ve allowed it to happen. Maybe now you’ll think twice about accepting my protection.”
You people disgust me. The sooner your reprehensible superstition fades away, the better.
Luke 10:31 is in a parable about the Good Samaritan. It was a story used to convey a principle. It didn’t actually happen. Or do you think the parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents actually happened too?”
Or the Flood? Right HisMan?
I had to read the article three times to really grasp the entire scope of things. All I can say is Wow! I am really sorry for all of those poor children. Galatians 6:7 is extremely powerful…
Oh, one last question. Does anyone have a problem with PPC’s comment from this thread, about that poor child: http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/07/pray_for_tuesda.html
Please note the irony of the lead article on the “Passionate Prolifer”, where Mrs. Hanks celebrates the tragic death of a Planned Parenthood guard.
I wish the child a full recovery, and trust that no one would display the hate toward her that her grandmother shows for Mr. Roebuck.
Or Jess’ comment:
Maybe this is God’s way of showing her and her family born people are just as special as unborn people.
Doesn’t Lesforlife believe that a mother should die rather then abort a baby? I hope we can all learn that *every* life is precious, not just the life of the unborn.
I have a problem with those comments. I certainly did then, as well. And my problems have nothing to do with how incorrect they are in their assumptions — that God would punish someone for being unfailingly pro-life, for one; or that Lesforlife believes that pregnant women should die rather than abort, for another — but rather because that thread was not an appropriate place to talk about whether the illness of a child is retribution for the actions of her family; or whether the situation was appropriately ironic, the justice poetic. I don’t care if the comments were dressed up in sad faces and pleasant-sounding words, they were unnecessary. How are those different from the things I have objected to being said in this thread?
Ezekiel 18:20 –
Hal:
There you go again, demonstrating your complete Biblical illiteracy. It is no wonder you are a pro-abort, for nothing else make sense to you. Your default mode is complete ignorance. Not admirable at all especially when you are in complete denial about it. You are like an addict in a drug induced stupor. Satan loves it when we’re like that. A fish on a hook not realizing he’s about to be fried in a pan.
Moses wrote the book of Genesis as factual history.
Jesus used parables or stories to convey principles. In many of the parables Jesus was speaking of future events therefore, they could not have happened yet. As for the parable of the Good Samaritan it could have happened may not have happened, but in the context of “Bad” using it a a proof text that “chance” happens, the point is it was a story. Beside the concept of things happening by chance apart from God’s sovereignty opposes all of the other teaching in the Bible that point to God’s omniscience, His omnipotence, His omnipresence, His sovereignty, His majesty, etc.
Good try.
Only a fool would look for reasons not to believe in God but instead, when questions or seeming contradictions came up, would seek God with His whole heart.
“There you go again, demonstrating your complete Biblical illiteracy.”
Guilty. Never got past page 3. I’ll wait for the movie….
To all that are so outraged by this article and the discussion that followed:
You are being dishonest if you assert that the circumstances of this tragic accident are not ironic. To you, it may be nothing more to you than a creepy coincidence. Perhaps that is the case. But seeing as how this is a pro-life blog with Christian authors, it is not inapproriate that the possible spiritual meaning behind this event is being discussed. The blog authors (and those defending them) have commented over and over that they are very sorry and saddened that innocent people died and they will continue to pray for the family. What more can you really ask for? These are people with spiritual convictions discussing spiritual theories surrounding an awful event. What is the point in demanding them to cater to a secular viewpoint (basically meaning that they shouldn’t discuss this at all because your sensibilities don’t allow for it) that they do not hold? It strikes me as a bit silly to act horrified when a pro-life Christian blog discusses current events, including tragic ones, in a pro-life Christian context.
This gloating over deaths is sick.
But then, it shouldn’t be a surprised coming from this “Christian” crowd. Jesus would be ashamed.
“So god didn’t cause the plane to crash, he just allowed it to happen? This sounds like the actions of a mafia boss — “I didn’t break your kneecaps, but I might’ve allowed it to happen. Maybe now you’ll think twice about accepting my protection.”
You people disgust me. The sooner your reprehensible superstition fades away, the better.
Posted by: Bob at March 26, 2009 9:13 AM”
Bob:
“The sooner your reprehensible superstition fades away”,,,yep you did vote for Obama. Can I ask you this Bob? Does your wish define babies (i.e. punishments from God) in the womb as superstitions as well?
“reprehensible superstition”….them are pretty definite conclusions Bob. Wow, I guess I should have attended that school of higher opinion that you went to. Just where is that located?
I guess you would then attribute this tragic event to random selection and survival of the fittest then? I guess you beleive that evil doesn’t exist and could have caused this tragic accident? Or is that superstitious as well? And Adolf Hitler, evil defined, was he just a figment of our imaginations? Got you thinking Bob, hmmmmmmm?
There’s no superstition here Bob for Jesus lived and died and dwelt among us and over 500 people witnessed the fact of His resurrection.
Here’s a Scripture for you Bob that I suggest you think about:
Romans 8:27-29 “27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
And Bob this too. If you think you can wish away the Word, please read this:
“1 Peter 1:23-25 (New International Version)
23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
“All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever.”[a] And this is the word that was preached to you.”
Peace to you.
Hi Janette!! Thank you!!
Sarah meet Janette. Janette, Sarah.
HisMan — let me address your points one by one.
Yes, I did vote for Obama. A refreshing change after 8 years of the idiot-in-chief.
“Does your wish define babies (i.e. punishments from God) in the womb as superstitions as well?” Huh? What does that even mean?
I attended the University of Houston. Not all that impressive, I realize, but I suspect you would be just as dismissive if I said Harvard.
I would attribute this tragic event to whatever physical factors brought that plane down — ice on the wings, too much weight, or whatever. Random selection and survival of the fittest have nothing to do with it.
Evil caused the accident? Do I think that’s superstitious? Most certainly.
(I can’t believe I have to write this) No, Hitler was not a figment of the imagination. All this has me thinking about is what a poor grasp of logic you have.
Over 500 people? Do you have names? Documentation?
Sworn affidavits?
Bible verses? Thanks, but no thanks. Just because something was written down centuries ago doesn’t make it true.
Hal:
Can I suggest, “The Passion of the Christ” because well, the Bible is really all about Him.
Sarah:
If I had the power, I’d bring these children, this family back in a heart beat even if their grandpa was involved in the abortion industry. I think satan did this and God allowed it. This doesn’t mean that not every single one of those people who died are in Heaven right now with Jesus. If the grandpa had this kind of faith he could have at least take some comfort in it. That is why we ask him to embrace God.
We Christians struggle with these issues as much as any one, probably more because we believe that God is a loving God but we also know that there are many things that happen that we just can’t understand fully. So we have to discuss them in the context of our faith. I think that is what happened on this site except for a few loons who said “good riddance”, etc.
I know this….even Jesus sometimes was hesitant to raise even children from the dead for He knew that they were in a glorious state with his Father, and to bring them back to life knowing that their resurrection was only temporary and to would have to suffer and die again pained Him greatly. However, we trust that He knows what He’s doing.
My life’s motto is what Job said, “Though He slay me I will trust Him”.
God ways are not our ways and this is why faith and trust in God is vital to the Christian journey for EVERYTHING else is insanity.
You are sick, sick people.
I’m not going to wish tragedy on any of you, because I would never do that. But if tragedy should ever befall you, I hope that someone tells you to your face that you deserved it.
Anyone’s death is a tragedy – born/unborn, child/adult. It’s definitely newsworthy to find out the correlation between the background of the accident victims and the location of the accident. It’s almost something you would see in the movies. My heart does go out to the dead.
———
OliviaB.
Seattle DUI lawyer
Taliesan, it is YOUR president Obama who said he does not want his daughters PUNISHED with a baby. It was YOUR speaker of the house Pelosi who defended the huge financial expense of providing free contraception in the ‘stimulus’ bill. She implied that children born to certain groups of people were economic burdens rather than gifts. Just because she didn’t say it doesn’t mean it’s not the same thing Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, promoted and wanted–to control certain populations. That is why most of the PP clinics are in the minority sections of towns and cities. And it was Your president Obama who joked about special needs children on Leno. Asked about the gutter ball he rolled while bowling during the campaign, he said, “It’s like–it was like Special Olympics or something.” This shows that all they say is just that…words.
Where is the love and acceptance for children there. Now these comments and thoughts about children are “disgusting and vomitous.” I think you’re talking about the wrong people when you say:
“You are the sick who oppose single mothers getting social grants, oppose single mothers having careers, oppose their children getting public healthcare, and then talk about what a blight the kids are on society when they are grown. Life, is only sacred so long as it can be used for political point scoring.
Children are there to punish their parents – the mother who cannot handle them, the “sinful” grandfather who will mourn them. There is no joy in children for the religious right, just torment.”
Who are the real self-righteous hypocrites?
Gingi is everything that is wrong with Radicals and hurts our cause. This poor man just experienced the worst tragity anyone can image and Gingi wants to say it was justified and in God’s name? Gingi state’s “We warned him, for his children’s sake, to wash his hands of the innocent blood he assisted in spilling because, as Scripture warns, if “you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you.” (Ezekiel 35:6) “. And then Gingi states, “I don’t want to turn this tragic event into some creepy spiritual “I told you so” moment…” YES she does…That is exactly what the author is doing. It is the most un-christian, unspiritual act I can think of..It is about hate and getting even and hitting someone when they are down. Jesus said, “thou who is without sin cast the first stone”. He also teaches us to forgive. Dying on the cross he says of his executionaers, “forgive them for they know not what they do”. Where is this behavior acceptable in Jesus’ teachings?
This hurts the credibility of pro-lifers…just as killing abortion doctors does. I want nothing to do with angry get even people that try to disguise their horrible intentions behind a faith they clearly don’t understand.
Bob, so many Hals, so little time. Here’s my answers to your answers to my comments…..
Yes, I did vote for Obama. A refreshing change after 8 years of the idiot-in-chief. Bingo! You do have the virus.
“Does your wish define babies (i.e. punishments from God) in the womb as superstitions as well?” Huh? What does that even mean? Your wish was that our “reprehensible superstition fades away”. Obama believes by calling babies punishment from God that there is a God (your definition of superstition). Therefore, the same logic that can call God a superstition is the same logic that can justify abortion.
I attended the University of Houston. Not all that impressive, I realize, but I suspect you would be just as dismissive if I said Harvard. Actually, if you look at the question in context I was implying that you were talking out of the other side of your body. Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
I would attribute this tragic event to whatever physical factors brought that plane down — ice on the wings, too much weight, or whatever. Random selection and survival of the fittest have nothing to do with it. The inference was to the theory of evolution which asserts that life itself happened by chance. It is our assertion that nothing, absolutely nothing happens by chance and everything is controlled by a sovereign and almighty God.
Evil caused the accident? Do I think that’s superstitious? Most certainly.
(I can’t believe I have to write this) No, Hitler was not a figment of the imagination. All this has me thinking about is what a poor grasp of logic you have. So if evil exists why couldn’t evil cause this accident to happen? So in your mind everything has a logical and reasonable answer? Perhaps you should connect your brain to the Google main server then. Do you at least trust probabilities?
Well I can’t beleive I have to write this but I want to appeal not to your spiritual side to convince you but to your logical side.
What is the probability that the plane would even crash? I think for commercial aviation it’s about 1 in 10,000,000. What is the probability that the flight was mysteriously diverted to Butte? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery where there was a memorial to the unborn? What is the probability that the plane would be carrying the relatives of the owner of the biggest abortion chain in the nation? Just asking since you have all the answers.
Over 500 people? Do you have names? Documentation? It’s called the New Testament. James, John, Thomas, Philip, etc., etc., etc. etc. Please don’t tell me your a lawyer? Besides, most courts of law require only one witness to find fact. God made sure you would be without excuse.
Sworn affidavits?
Bible verses? Thanks, but no thanks. Just because something was written down centuries ago doesn’t make it true. Uh, like the Constitution? Or of course old reliable, the Bible, 66 books, 47 authors, 6000 years.
Bob, the person that doesn’t want to see, keeps his eyes closed. The person that wants to see, upon opening his eyes, doesn’t accuse his eyes of lying to him, unless of course, he’s insane. The evidence for God is all around us. I suggest you open your eyes and stop denying the facts.
Oh boy, this is not gonna be easy, but I’ll try…
Obama believes by calling babies punishment from God that there is a God (your definition of superstition). Therefore, the same logic that can call God a superstition is the same logic that can justify abortion. Again, this makes no sense. Not sure how to respond here.
The inference was to the theory of evolution which asserts that life itself happened by chance. It is our assertion that nothing, absolutely nothing happens by chance and everything is controlled by a sovereign and almighty God. Sorry, there is a physical, tangible reason why that plane went down. There is no need to invoke divine intervention, divine retribution, or whatever you care to call it.
So if evil exists why couldn’t evil cause this accident to happen? So in your mind everything has a logical and reasonable answer? Perhaps you should connect your brain to the Google main server then. Do you at least trust probabilities?
Evil is a concept, not a thing. Do evil acts occur? Yes. Is there an invisible cloud of evil that compels people to commit evil acts? No. Sadly, people need no prompting from metaphysical entities to commit evil acts; they do them quite well on their own.
What is the probability that the plane would even crash? I think for commercial aviation it’s about 1 in 10,000,000. What is the probability that the flight was mysteriously diverted to Butte? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery where there was a memorial to the unborn? What is the probability that the plane would be carrying the relatives of the owner of the biggest abortion chain in the nation? Just asking since you have all the answers. You’re putting words in my mouth; I never said I had all the answers. Regarding crashing in a cemetery; there is speculation that the pilot was trying to land in an unpopulated area. Regarding the unborn memorial; that depends on how many cemeteries have these types of memorials. Regarding the relatives, this is an extremely unfortunate coincidence and nothing more.
It’s called the New Testament. James, John, Thomas, Philip, etc., etc., etc. etc. Please don’t tell me your a lawyer? Besides, most courts of law require only one witness to find fact. God made sure you would be without excuse. Sorry to burst your bubble, I’m not a lawyer. So one man (since only one man is required, right?) tells an incredulous story about someone who raises the dead, multiplies loaves and fishes, etc. Why would I possibly believe this person? Do you believe everything you read?
Just because something was written down centuries ago doesn’t make it true. Uh, like the Constitution? Or of course old reliable, the Bible, 66 books, 47 authors, 6000 years. You misunderstand; the fact that something is old does not, in and of itself, mean that it is true.
Ancient Greek medical texts? They’re awfully old; but that doesn’t mean their views on how the human body works are valid. On the contrary, they’re way off base.
I suggest you open your eyes and stop denying the facts. My eyes are open — to logic and the scientific method. Not to ancient myths.
To HisMan and other believers here, about Bob and Michelle and other non-believers: This is an adaptation of someone else’s words: “To those who believe no explanation is necessary, to those who do not believe no explanation will suffice.”
The Holy Spirit will teach and convict and teach those who do not believe, sometimes in spite of themselves, to their great surprise and delight. We pray for the Holy Spirit to bring truth to them in God’s time and in His own way. In the meantime we are called to pray for them and correct them…in love. God bless…
PrettyInPink
…you should consider changing your handle to ‘PrettyIgnorant’. ^_^
You say those who wrote to the author recieved e-mails like,
“I can only assume you are pro-choice” and “why don’t you express this concern to all of those dead unborn babies”?
Well sweetheart, I actually never wrote that. Hmmm, imagine that. Funny that you doubt so much, yet you unswervingly believe the words of ignorant anti-life goons. Forgive my sarcasm as I yawn, “Surprise, surprise.”
Some reported responses:
“Hey.. can I ask you a question? Are you pro-choice? Do you support the growing pile of minced baby pulp from the millions of innocent lives being slaughtered by abortion?”
“You just seem to be a self-righteous noob who has approached me with a preconcieved notion of who I am and what I do. Is this possibly because you’re pro-choice, I wonder?”
Also, your response wasn’t clever. Your patronization speaks volumes.
Another:
Is a non-Christian really trying to dictate who is a ‘good’ Christian and who is ‘terrible’ one? Seriously, whats the deal? I don’t try to dictate who is good and bad when it comes to you guys and your imaginary monkey gods. LOL!
“imaginary monkey gods”?
“Excuse my impertinence in pointing out your hypocrisy, but do you support the holocaust of America’s children?”
“If you ever feel compelled to actually read my article in context and personally write me an e-mail instead of parroting the regurgitated BS being fed to you, that’s be great!
In the meantime, unless you would like to engage in a productive dialogue, you can go take your self-righteous fist-shaking elsewhere darling. ^_^”
Gingi, it’s time to admit that your responses to these people were the assumptions that they were pro-choice, stupid, and brainwashed, when there are a fair amount of pro-lifers that were equally outraged at your characterization of the tragedy.
Now I know why I’ve pretty much stopped coming on here.
This thread is a disgrace. So much for Christian mercy and compassion.
Danielle and PIP I applaud you. I don’t know how you could deal with this.
I hope all of you are doing well, regardless of how ridiculous I may find your posts.
So much gloating over the deaths of those innocent people.
Yep, you lot CLEARLY deserve the inspiring and not-at-all misleading title of “pro-life”.
I’m just happy that I don’t worship a God who sees fit to crash a plane full of innocent people, including children, to make some kind of political statement about…killing children. Wait, what?
I don’t worship a God like that either, lilyforthewin.
Who is gloating over the deaths of innocent people? Name some names.
Some of the ugliest comments I have seen on this thread have come from one hit wonders.
I agree with Carla. No one is gloating. No one knows the heart of another person posting here except God. He knows all our hearts and whether our compassion is genuine or not, and each and every one of us will have to answer to Him alone, whether you believe in Him or not.
Some of the ugliest comments I have seen on this thread have come from one hit wonders.
Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 6:47 PM
Carla, some of your regulars have done your cause a disservice as well.
Like I said. Call them out. To say that ALL prolifers are gloating over the deaths of innocent people is a lie. Take some names, address the people you disagree with and seek first to understand what they are saying. I have seen a lot of compassion on this thread as well.
Your regulars. Your cause. We don’t have a unibrain you know, asitis. You have been here long enough to know that not all of the prolifers agree on everything. :)
All of this really bad theology from atheists is getting old…
Your regulars. Your cause. We don’t have a unibrain you know, asitis. You have been here long enough to know that not all of the prolifers agree on everything. :)
Posted by: Carla at March 26, 2009 7:26 PM
That’s for sure Carla! Oh the prolife catfights we’ve seen lately! Rrrrrrrr!
But outsiders stumbling upon this blog and falling into this post would not recognize these differences so much and just see those unfortunate comments as prolife in general. thats what I meant.
Notice the newbies on this thread…..have they taken any time to get to know anyone? Have they falsely judged all prolifers according to certain comments they disagree with?? Have they said ugly things? Yep, yep and yep.
If you think all prolifers are the same then I offer a big Prolife Pulse WELCOME to you to learn the truth.
My deepest sympathy to the Irving Feldkamp family. Good bless you.
That is, “God Bless you”!
This is easy:
Oh boy, this is not gonna be easy, but I’ll try…
Obama believes by calling babies punishment from God that there is a God (your definition of superstition). Therefore, the same logic that can call God a superstition is the same logic that can justify abortion. Again, this makes no sense. Not sure how to respond here. Try thinking about it.
The inference was to the theory of evolution which asserts that life itself happened by chance. It is our assertion that nothing, absolutely nothing happens by chance and everything is controlled by a sovereign and almighty God. Sorry, there is a physical, tangible reason why that plane went down. There is no need to invoke divine intervention, divine retribution, or whatever you care to call it. So where did you come from and where are you goinf?
So if evil exists why couldn’t evil cause this accident to happen? So in your mind everything has a logical and reasonable answer? Perhaps you should connect your brain to the Google main server then. Do you at least trust probabilities?
Evil is a concept, not a thing. Do evil acts occur? Yes. Is there an invisible cloud of evil that compels people to commit evil acts? No. Sadly, people need no prompting from metaphysical entities to commit evil acts; they do them quite well on their own. Evil is a concept meaning that I can think about it in a different way and define it as something else?……Wow! Again, you are wrong, evil is a result of sin and sin has power and it is obvious you are in bondage to it an ddon;t even know it….sad.
What is the probability that the plane would even crash? I think for commercial aviation it’s about 1 in 10,000,000. What is the probability that the flight was mysteriously diverted to Butte? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery? What is the probability that it would crash in a cemetery where there was a memorial to the unborn? What is the probability that the plane would be carrying the relatives of the owner of the biggest abortion chain in the nation? Just asking since you have all the answers. You’re putting words in my mouth; I never said I had all the answers. Regarding crashing in a cemetery; there is speculation that the pilot was trying to land in an unpopulated area. Regarding the unborn memorial; that depends on how many cemeteries have these types of memorials. Regarding the relatives, this is an extremely unfortunate coincidence and nothing more. What in actually did this incident coincide with if it was a coincidence? Coincidence: a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance: The tell me Bob, what two events occurred simutaneously to qualify it as a coincidence?
It’s called the New Testament. James, John, Thomas, Philip, etc., etc., etc. etc. Please don’t tell me your a lawyer? Besides, most courts of law require only one witness to find fact. God made sure you would be without excuse. Sorry to burst your bubble, I’m not a lawyer. So one man (since only one man is required, right?) tells an incredulous story about someone who raises the dead, multiplies loaves and fishes, etc. Why would I possibly believe this person? Do you believe everything you read? Well I don’t believe what you write. It’s a dangerous thing to read about Christ, the son of God, and not see the love and divinity of such a person. It appears that you have done this, decide to reject it as truth and by definition are headed to hell apart from a change of heart and mind.
Just because something was written down centuries ago doesn’t make it true. Uh, like the Constitution? Or of course old reliable, the Bible, 66 books, 47 authors, 6000 years. You misunderstand; the fact that something is old does not, in and of itself, mean that it is true.
Ancient Greek medical texts? They’re awfully old; but that doesn’t mean their views on how the human body works are valid. On the contrary, they’re way off base. I don;t believe it becasue it’s old, I believe it because it’s God’s word and it is true. In fact, many of the prophecies were fulfilled. Only God could write such a book. Oh, and aren’t medical books written by men?
I suggest you open your eyes and stop denying the facts. My eyes are open — to logic and the scientific method. Not to ancient myths. This is a good one. That’s why you proably believe in evolution, an unproven theory that violates every rule of the scientific method, the most significant of which is observation.
Bob:
That wasn’t me.
Moderators, please ban this Dave guy and issue an apology to Bob.
Bob, I think you’re wrong in assuming this Dave is a Christian.
I am so glad you are getting the word out. I read it on the lifesite news. I didn’t understand why in the general media there seemed to be some missing facts. Now I know. I hope the reporters and police who witnessed this share the info also with others. Everyone who saw this on TV wondered why it seemed so eerie that they plane crashed in the cemetary.
Hal, it’s not about God loving you, He loves us all. Even the worst. It’s about loving God, and how that should be the principle of your life – and conforming your actions to your proclamations of love.
How can you keep saying, some of you, that you leave the father’s dealings out of things? Have you heard of the sins of the fathers being visited….and usually the father is alive to see the horror. See Shakespeare for more of these kinds of familial connections. I’d like to point out something else people will feel is ghoulish, BUT IT IS NOT WRONG THE MENTION THE FACTS. People begged Liam Nesson not to star in that portrayal of Kinsey. THEY BEGGED HIM and prayed for him. If this were any kind of fictional tragedy we would see that it is not often the people doing the wrong who are struck down, but that their loved ones are taken from them. I hate to even type the words. This does not mean the deaths of innocent people are sanctioned by God. But perhaps the wrong actions of people put into motion a kind of bad karma. I know that’s not Catholic….but if you reach for your Bible, you will see similar stories, which have helped people understand good and evil for thousands of years. Our media wants us to believe there is never a payback for evil – unless it’s something like buying fur or clubbing baby seals.
RE: birth control – the hormonal birth control is some of the most poisonous stuff introduced and these facts will come out in the future, when it’s unavoidable. This is the same stuff basically as used in the HRT study!
I do not understand how Barack Obama can be alive today because his mother did not have an abortion (and as a black baby, he had a higher likelihood of that), and seems to love his two daughters, and likes to talk about that love. How can you love, and yet profit from being so pro-abortion? I do not understand it.
By the way, as a Catholic, birth control is abhorent to God because it is a rejection of His gift of life.
this, by PiP, is an insult and doesn’t belong here
”Yes Jasper, I am one big fraud. Now look up the Catholic views on creation and the death penalty like a good boy.”
This is vulgar
”All this gloating over the death of those passengers is really giving Satan a chubby.
Posted by: Siannan at March 25, 2009 2:05 PM”
The letters ‘OMG’ are offensive (see below), because they are taking the Lord’s name in vain.
In addition, I have to say I am shocked that Hal states that he is an atheist, and some of his posts are offensive in tone for being blasphemous.
””omg, many cemeteries now have a tomb to the unborn. Good grief I’m surprised you will take Hank’s word for it. Oh I forgot, he’s an atheist, so he MUST be reputable. lol”
OMG, I took the cemetaery owner’s word for it as well too Patricia and I didn’t confirm that he is an atheist as well! I better get on that…….
Posted by: asitis at March 25, 2009 3:35 PM”
I get that you may not want to censor people, but why are the anti-life comments of Hal allowed to stand? I see anti-life comments as blasphemous. The destruction of innocent life is saying that God does not exist. And he says he is an atheist. What is more blasphemous?!
With post-abortion trauma /stress, the parents and family of the dead baby often try to justify the ‘choice.’ This is incredibly tragic, because it not only leads to more abortions in many cases, but we now have a whole culture in denial – you have to wonder if the pro-abortion president, pro-abortion media, pro-abortion Democrat congress, aren’t on some level experiencing the denial phase of the post abortion trauma. Certainly many pro-abortion Democrats were at one time, supposedly, pro-life: Kennedy, jackson, biden, etc.
There is a reason we pray, besides the fact that we are commanded to :) We pray for God’s intercession….if we are not cognizant of God and His mercy, how can we ask for it for the ones we love? If you are destroying the unborn of others, how can God protect you?
This is not to rejoice in suffering and pain. I am so grateful for this article. I watched as several news programs said they cannot understand why this crash happened this way. Who knows? We have no information from the black box or recordings. We know perhaps it was overloaded. But the truth of Catholicism is to first commit no sins. We are not perfect, but if we choose one sin, aren’t we choosing a life unprotected by God’s hand? This does not mean that bad things happen to good people to fix them. But have we not all heard of stories of people changing their lives just because of stories like this? We have memorials to the unborn here. Why not in a cemetery? And by the way, wayyyyy up at the top of this page someone referred the abortion as a ‘political fight.’ Oh no – this is what the pro-abortionists like to say to tell people to ignore this. This is not political in any way, although the pro-abortionists have tried to make it so. This is human rights. This is the basis of ALL OUR OTHER RIGHTS!!!! It is the shame of our nation and our modern world. We cannot have a better country if we have a pro-abortion president and pro-abortion laws and a selfish anti-child mentality in this country. We cannot continue to be blessed in any way if we offend God by destroying His gifts. We see this in the amazing advances of adult stem cell and non-embryonic destructive stem cells. If you look at the pro-abortion appointees Obama has tried to make and foist upon our country, SO MANY OF THEM are also involved in other corruption. This is not a coincidence. They have sold their souls.
Michelle, I’m not sure how your comments are allowed to stand, but a baby is not a woman’s body. A baby has different dna, different blood type often, and of course, different parents than the mother does!
I’m not sure how a whole generation of people can deny that a baby is a baby, but take a look at a 4-d sonogram sometime, and see what’s going on in there!
The woman was not born with the baby in her uterus. All of our other organs are those we were born with. please. try not to ignore science as you seek to make some kind of nonsensical argument.
””There you go again, demonstrating your complete Biblical illiteracy.”
Guilty. Never got past page 3. I’ll wait for the movie….
Posted by: Hal at March 26, 2009 10:30 AM”
I cannot understand why these absolutely blashemous posts are allowed! They are SUCH an insult!!!!!
By the way, Gingi, as a journalism major, I see you as just reporting the facts. We may put things together and see them as one way, but you seem to have just done what I recall being known as a ROSR – reporter on scene reporting. You reported what you saw.
Jill, I’m fairly new to visiting your site, so I don’t know how you deal with moderating, but just an FYI….The first night after Gingi’s article was posted on her own site and here, she started getting horrific emails, phone calls and things being said about her all over the web. As a mom, I sat up till about 4am, reading the garbage that people were saying on some really nasty sites, some I couldn’t stay on to read, for the profane photos (I guess some of their readers can’t, well, read, so they had photos to illustrate).
On one site, devoted to atheists and pro-aborts, I saw a poster called ‘pretty in pink’, bragging about all the things she was doing and saying on here. Now, I know that we should open our hearts and doors to the lost, but when they are destructive and acting as childish ‘spies’, should they be allowed to stay and disrupt things? Just thought I’d let you know, from some of the other posts here (by other names), they also sound very familiar to those on that other site. Sad. I would never have any reason to visit a site that holds a belief/view that I did not. In the vernacular of my ‘fansites’, that is what we always called a troll. Now, I know that there are ‘pro-life atheists’ out there, I’ve read some wonderful articles…but these people just seem to be out for throwing gas on fires and trying to stir the pot.
Just thought I’d let you know.
To be honest, if prettyinpink knows anyone who got a reply from Gingi that had any ‘snark’ in it, it was one of what we thought was just a few ‘crazies'(for they were vulgar, sick messages)…which makes me wonder, ‘why is she here?’. Prettyinpink needs to take her sick little friends and play in a playground that believes the same way she does. I only ‘know her’ from her posts here and on that other vile site…so if I am out of place, sorry.
Just so you all know, Gingi did not say/write the things that she is being accused of, as she states above. But I know the adults, the Christians have probably already figured that out.
Gingi is alot stronger than I am, because I’m ready to start ‘stooping to the level’ of some of these people….so I apologize for what sounds ‘snippy’ in my head. I am very tired.
For those of you who care, Gingi was interviewed on http://www.radiopatriot.blogspot.com
Thanks.
Suzi, hang in there.
You can know pro-life atheists, but they do not grasp the fullness of the pro-life movement, and its defense of life against the true evil of the pro-abortionists.
This is a truly evil and concerted attack on life and God’s gifts of children, life, family, sexuality, faith…
I find it interesting, by the way, to note the very large family of Duggars (is that the name?) 16 or 17 children? The mother used birth control in the first years of their marriage (according to the site), and then miscarried. They did not see the miscarriage as punishment, from what I understand, but as the consequences (natural law?) of their wrong actions.
The rules say not to post blasphemy.
It is one (sad) thing not to admit to not reading the Bible, to treat it irreverently is blasphemy.
some synonyms for blasphemous: Synonyms:
sacrilegious, impious, irreligious; apostate, iconoclastic
Definitions for blasphemy: blas?phe?my? ?/?blæsf?mi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [blas-fuh-mee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -mies. 1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2. Judaism. a. an act of cursing or reviling God.
b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
3. Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.
I stumbled across this article and I felt compelled to respond. To tell the truth, I gave up on religion years ago, but I never gave up on God. It just seemed to me that organized religion was created by man to give rhyme and reason to a power that could not be comprehended. When I see arguments like this taking place in God’s name, it saddens me. It is my belief that our true purpose in life is simply to be the best that we can be, at work, at home and especially to each other. Accusing others of blasphemy or proclaiming your own righteousness in a cause is something that I feel is dangerous territory. I know the argument here is that God’s truth is the only Truth, but again, I think this is just one aspect of an infinite being and to think you know his will is a bit arrogant. Having said that, I do admire all of you for your convictions, no matter what side you’re on. Call me crazy, call me a blasphemer, heck I may even deserve it, but that’s my two cents.
Would you kindly look at the DEFINITION of blasphemy? Do you expect us to accept the definition of all the words you use, yet ignore the very real definition of blasphemy? You are free to have whatever beliefs you have, unreal or not, but the rules for this site say that blasphemy will not be tolerated! If you cannot insult others, why do you think it’s ok to insult God? And you just happened to come along at this moment and read my very late posts on the blasphemous words here? Wow. Amazing coincidence.
Here’s an example – I may not believe in what the other major religions of the world teach, but I would not blaspheme them, their gods, or their religion. I would not mock their concepts. I would stand up for what is important to me, but it is not right for others to mock what is important to me. I am shocked at the gall of some. But then again, the abortion industry now has such deep roots in the culture, that these things are actually not a suprise. Still, a shock.
Is GG Gingi?
“As a mom, I sat up till about 4am, reading the garbage that people were saying on some really nasty sites, some I couldn’t stay on to read”
Suzi maybe that gives that gives you an inkling of how the mothers/grandmothers of those plane crash victims feel /would feel about Gingi’s piece.
No, GG is not Gingi. I didn’t quite get the connection when I began using initials. Also, if you see, I address Suzi and Gingi.
OK, asitis, I’m new here and I guess you are also. What’s with the personal attack against Gingi? You know there’s a difference, if you’re an intelligent person, and you know that the article was not an attack on anyone. Read it. it is a report. It is a report of what she saw. It is a report of what is missing from the main stream media. She does not threaten anyone.
Suzi, where are these other sites that the crazies post this crazy stuff? I guess they feed people here?
Also, if you see, I address Suzi and Gingi.
Posted by: GG at March 27, 2009 4:30 AM
Oh you’re right! Well that PROVES you can’t be! Of course! ;)
I’m heading out for a run. Back later.
Asitis, Are you being sarcastic? Again, I’m new here, and I don’t know if you’re trying to be nasty or what. I guess people try to get away with it here. do you give people a hard time just to cause havoc? Are you so angry with a
I’ve seen posts like the ones here on other sites. Why don’t you care more about the living children, they ask? A woman has the right to choose (what? death for her child? Why doesn’t the child have a right to choose, which would be life!) A woman’s body is her own (but what about the baby? Isn’t his or her own baby allowed the use of their body?)
Arguments that a baby is better off dead than living in squalor, or poverty, or unhappiness….This is your judgment on so many things, those that say this. No one is better off dead, let alone dying the horrible death of being ripped apart or otherwise dismembered or destroyed. Obama himself was abandoned several times, and raised without things at times. Whatever you think of him, NYC Police Commisioner Bernie Kerik played an important role on 9/11, He was an ‘unwanted’ child. But what is an unwanted child? So many that were before birth become wanted – BY SOMEONE. And who is to say no one is ever wanted by ANYone in their entire life? Not their parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, siblings, possible husbands or wives, future children, the world for all that a new life will bring, and most importantly, God? HE wanted that life! Unwanted by EVERYone? I doubt it. What joy or happiness could that child bring to someone’s life, at some time….or some purpose we cannot know. But if God wills a life, then you cannot say that your decision of murder is better than God’s choice of life.
And something people are completely ignoring is the economic impact of tens of millions of lives destroyed – and their children, and their children’s children. Some of the babies that could have been born in ’73 might almost have been or actually would have been grandaprents 36 years later.
It is shameful enough that we lost millions of souls, but how many generations are gone? You can fix the numbers all you like, Pres Obama and pro-aborts, but you’re missing the humans that would have been part of this great country. That’s producers, consumers, and all sorts of cold hard economic terms for human lives.
Pro-aborts are desperately afraid of the connections that will be made between embryos and ‘the products of conception. All the article above points out is the value of the human lives that were lost in one plane crash. In the time it took you to read the article, how many babies lost their loves – never to know their families? At least 14.
By the way, take the number of abortions in this country and add it to all the other countries and you see the economic impact. Where libs once cried about the ‘population explosion’ some of the more thinking ones are now undestanding that the modern world has a underpopulation problem. Not to mention the incredible amount of women in their 30’s / 40’s who turn to IVF (another huge money making industry) to try to conceive.
Re. GG’s post at 1:44 am —
Natasha Richardson’s death was divine retribution for Liam Neeson portraying Kinsey in a movie? Seriously?
GG, you are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
So me some real “Hate”! Attack the messenger, and the message. Intellect? Morals? Religion? But, you have to ask yourself the “BASIC QUESTION”! Who supports killing the unborn, for any reason?. Now that is the HATE I love ……….Jack D. Ripper
Jill, I think it’s about time you take down this post, or at least freeze and delete the comments. This is all just going beyond ridiculous and people on both sides are crossing lines left and right as this argument continues. It is an awful reflection on everyone involved, and it’s time to bring it to an end.
“I don’t believe it becasue it’s old, I believe it because it’s God’s word and it is true.”
No, you believe it because you choose to. It makes sense to you, you’ve grown up with it, and you put faith in it. That’s fine. I think faith can be a very positive and life-affirming thing.
But when you are in a debate, you are supposed to use facts. It is not a proven fact that the Bible is God’s word and true. It is your opinion. If you can’t see that, than you don’t really have faith at all. Faith is believing in something while knowing you have no logical reason to. If you don’t acknowledge the illogical and uncertain aspects of faith, than what you have is certainty; and certainty without logical reason is just irrationality.
Your faith in the Bible is not a bad thing. Your inability to understand why others might not have the same faith is, because it blinds you to the rest of the world. You can’t use faith in a debate. You must use facts. And it is a fact that evolution has more logical basis than the Bible. Contrary to what you’ve said, evolution has been observed. Every time someone is born with traits from his mother’s and father’s side, that is observed evidence for evolution. You may not believe in it, and that’s fine. But to tell others, with absolute certainty, that if they trust scientific evidence rather than the Bible, they are going to Hell? Again, that’s not faith.
Oh, and implying that Natasha Richardson died because of Liam Neeson playing Kinsey? Tacky, classless, ridiculous, wildly offensive, and a whole bunch of other really bad things.
Jill,
You wrong-headed, damnable moron.
For posting such a decidedly didactic, UN-charitable, and Un-Christ-like “lesson,” you should do some serious penance and self-reflection.
This “post” of yours demonstrates the same sort of moral bankruptcy as that which you perceive in and criticize of those who provide medical abortions.
Shame on you for participating in the continued moral decline of America.
~Jessica
God is not interested in your hate-mongering.
It’s fine that you disagree with what Feldkamp did. Reasonable people disagree on abortion all the time.
But it’s arrogant and hateful and ignorant to aspire to know the mind of God and his motives. If you truly believed in and loved God, you wouldn’t gloat over the deaths of your fellow human beings. They were as beloved of God as you. Neither you nor anyone else will know why their plane crashed. Can you really propose that those innocent children died because of their grandfather’s supposed sins? Can you really believe in a God who would kill a child for his parent’s actions? Didn’t Christ come to earth to absolve mankind of the sins of our forefathers?
You miserable vulture.
GG:
Welcome, warrior of Christ.
Your passion for God is evidenct.
Peace to you.
Jessica:
Your post betrays who you are. Please don’t use the Lord’s name in vain to advance your pro-abort, pro-death agenda; the shedding of innocent blood.
“I don’t believe it because it’s old, I believe it because it’s God’s word and it is true.”
No, you believe it because you choose to. It makes sense to you, you’ve grown up with it, and you put faith in it. That’s fine. I think faith can be a very positive and life-affirming thing……..
Posted by: Anonymous at March 27, 2009 10:22 AM
_________________________
Quite a few assumptions in there my friend.
Truth is you haven’t got a clue about me and why I believe.
Know this, assumption is the lowest form of knowledge, not to mention that your conclusions on matters of faith are completely ignorant.
I suggest you don’t make any more comments on things which you know nothing of.
“”Yes Jasper, I am one big fraud. Now look up the Catholic views on creation and the death penalty like a good boy.””
But Jasper calling me a fraud isn’t an insult? Way to be objective my friend!
I’m going to put my two cents in here. Our world is SO grossly overpopulated that, if God likes it or not, “mother nature” (or whatever you want to call it) WILL find a way to stop us from destroying this Earth! If it takes HIV, cancer, plane crashes or abortion, the human population needs to be controlled somehow. And if this “GOD” you speak of, is willing to punish people for using the free will he gave them…………then I want no part of it! I am from Butte where this accident happened and it is very sad and tragic. I’m also a Biologist and obviously pro-choice. Get off your high horse and take a look at reality!
“The letters ‘OMG’ are offensive (see below), because they are taking the Lord’s name in vain.”
Someone sure is sensitive.
GG:
You made these comments about Pretty in Pink:
“On one site, devoted to atheists and pro-aborts, I saw a poster called ‘pretty in pink’, bragging about all the things she was doing and saying on here.”
“Prettyinpink needs to take her sick little friends and play in a playground that believes the same way she does. I only ‘know her’ from her posts here and on that other vile site…so if I am out of place, sorry.”
Please give me the links to those sites she posts on.
Jasper:
Please ask GG the same question, maybe even e-mail.
Suzi,
“I saw a poster called ‘pretty in pink’, bragging about all the things she was doing and saying on here.”
I said at one site that it’s a nightmare here. Then I said that moderation isn’t very fair.
Then later I said it was great that some of them came over to say something.
I don’t think that’s really bragging. You and GG need to take a deep breath.
In fact JMB:
The world is not overpopulated. It is poorly managed.
I suggest that if you really believe in your annihilistic solution that you volunteer for your own cause.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
“I only ‘know her’ from her posts here and on that other vile site…so if I am out of place, sorry.”
Sorry Suzi, but I did come to this post originally to tell people to knock off the stuff they are saying, as well as show my disgust for this article. I now regret a little bit what I started, but I thought it needed saying.
But you are right, I’m getting more and more disillusioned with this site in general; now people like you are telling Jill opposing viewpoints should not be allowed.
When that happens I’m gone. I was just not going to come back by now, but as you can see, I have terrible impulse control.
HisMan, I’ll oblige you.
“Posted by: prettyinpink | March 25, 2009 2:14 AM
Yeah, it’s a nightmare over at Jill’s. I was nicer to them than I should have been. You see some Christians’ true colors after a tragedy like this.”
“Posted by: Rae | March 25, 2009 2:20 AM
@PiP: And you’re surprised? $10 your post will be moderated or deleted by tomorrow for self-editing “assholes” on there.”
“Rae, true. A lot of the mods over at Jill Stanek’s can be really fickle especially with posts that call them assholes…”
“Posted by: prettyinpink | March 26, 2009 6:39 PM
Thanks to those who came over to Jill’s blog!”
Now calm down.
“The letters ‘OMG’ are offensive (see below), because they are taking the Lord’s name in vain.”
Someone sure is sensitive.
Posted by: prettyinpink at March 27, 2009 11:14 AM
Yeh, never mind that the one who first used it in GG’s quote is Patricia, a devote Catholic if there ever was one! I don’t think she would agree on the using the lord’s number in vain. Really GG.
“But Jasper calling me a fraud isn’t an insult? Way to be objective my friend!
Posted by: prettyinpink at March 27, 2009 11:11 AM”
PIP:
It’s not an insult to call someone what they are. So if you post on this site as a “sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers, principled person” who doesn’t want murderers to be executed and on another site seeking the approval of atheistic, pro-aborts, well, I guess that would mean you are a fraud. We’ll see after we read your posts on the other sites.
Judas Iscariot betrayed Christ as well because of his desire for approval and well, money. We all know what he did to himself.
Yes PIP, you do covet approval from others no matter if they are good or evil. Very, very sad.
Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers. Yes, insulting, but true and He knew they needed to hear the truth for their own good. Perhaps some changed their minds, perhaps some didn’t.
“I now regret a little bit what I started, but I thought it needed saying.”
PIP, I give you a lot of credit for speaking your mind on this. I think it needed saying as well. And all the better coming from someone who is prolife. Ditch any regret.
Enjoy the day.
“”sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers, principled person””
I never tried to bolster that image. If you haven’t noticed, I’ve lost my patience here quite a few times.
I posted what I wrote over at the other blog. Go ahead, call me a fraud! I’m really eager for your approval!
It’s funny how you say I covet approval…as you can see, I rarely get any of it here. But yeah, I guess that is my major sin, so I’ll take that elsewhere. *Pity Parties!*
Thanks for your support asitis. This is just getting tiring.
His Man, where did you ever get the impression that PIP is a “”sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers….. person.
She got so much more going on. And that a good thing!
About OMG. I would never take the Lord’s Name in vain, but some friends and family members use this from time to time when they email me. I know that it also stands for oh my gosh and oh my goodness. So it depends on what the person is thinking or what his/her intent was. I always interpret it as Oh my gosh!
“His Man, where did you ever get the impression that PIP is a “”sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers….. person.
She got so much more going on. And that a good thing!
Posted by: asitis at March 27, 2009 11:37 AM”
That’s the point, she’s not.
PIP:
You don’t even realize, becuase of your duplicity how much you are being used by pro-aborts.
You claim to be pro-life – you voted for Obama.
You use the Catholic Church doctrine when it fits your agenda and otherwise reject it.
You posed this question to me: “HisMan, I’m especially interested in your reaction to this, because it seems to contradictory to what you stated in the BC thread:” I took great pains and much time trying to explain how God exercises punishment versus discipline in a very thoughtful way.
You demonstrate you don’t want to learn, you wants to argue. You set people up, get them to commit to a fact, and then you chop their head off if what they say contradicts your agenda and group them all a**holes.
And then to find out you go on other sites to talk about us pro-lifers behind our backs and calls us a**holes. Wow, do you think you can be trusted?
And you’ve just gotten a nod from Asitis a rabid pro-abort, seeking approval from anyone who will give it.
Go one way or the other. You’re trying to pleae everyone and embrace all sides causes you to be doubleminded. You are “lukewarm” at best.
If you want to vote for Obama, go ahead, don’t call yourslef pro-life.
You want to be aginat the death penalty, when the Bible is very clear about this subject, go ahead.
You want to believe in theistic evolution which is more dangerous than just plain evolution because it is total compromise, go ahead.
You want to go on other sites and seek approval from pro-aborts and atheists and the likes of Hal and asitis, go ahead.
Jesus said you are eiterh for Him or against Him. I suggest you choose which side you’re going to be on.
Case closed.
And I agree, let’s all stop talking about PIP, she been exposed.
HisMan,
I don’t care what you think of me. I believe what I believe, and I say what I think. I argue with you because I think you are wrong. This is not anything new. I’m surprised you haven’t caught on to this yet.
I do think I need to address this:
“And then to find out you go on other sites to talk about us pro-lifers behind our backs and calls us a**holes.”
With all due respect, some of the people here were being a**holes and I did have the decency to tell you guys to your faces. Like you said, not an insult if you call people what they are, right HisMan? And I did make an effort to say that there were some Christian perspectives here that I thought were fair interpretations and there were some who did speak up and say that now is not the time and I appreciate that.
Also, I don’t think anything I said at that other site was very damning. If you haven’t noticed, this thread is a nightmare, and there has been fickle moderating here in general.
Have a great day,
PiP
“His Man, where did you ever get the impression that PIP is a “”sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers….. person.
She got so much more going on. And that a good thing!
Posted by: asitis at March 27, 2009 11:37 AM”
“That’s the point, she’s not”
Agreed she’s not (and that’s good BTW)! But the point was how did you get the impression she was? Why did you claim “you post on this site as a “sweet, little innocent puppy and flowers, principled person” who doesn’t want murderers to be executed”?
“And you’ve just gotten a nod from Asitis a rabid pro-abort, seeking approval from anyone who will give it”.
Rabid? Thank you! That explains why my mouth keeps foaming!!!!!!
Seriously though HisMan. I seek approval from anyone who will give it? Hello???? Where have you been here the past few months?????
No asitis, it is me that seeks approval. What, you can’t tell by my conversation on this thread??
PIP it must be true then that we both seek approval. HisMan is wise. Going against the grain is a sure sign of Desperately Seeking Approval. Of course.
Seriously though HisMan. I seek approval from anyone who will give it? Hello???? Where have you been here the past few months?????
Posted by: asitis at March 27, 2009 12:31 PM
————–
Wasn’t referring to you.
PIP:
Like I said, no more talk about you. That’s it.
HisMan,
You don’t make the rules.
Oh, you’re right HisMan. I misread that. Ithought you meant I was seeking approval too. That would be as crazy as claiming PIP is!
So long folks. Gotta run (literally). Later …
I have a question actually relating back to the article above……….I have lived in Butte for 27 years and have done a litte “asking around” and I, nor anyone I have talked to, has EVER seen or heard of this so called “Tomb of the Unborn” in this cemetary where the plane crash occured? Is it really there or is this woman (Gingi Edmonds)trying to make up a good story to scare people into her way of thinking?? Maybe I’ll have to take a look in this cemetary myself.
Alright, this is going beyond childish.
Are there any mods left willing to step in?
I have no problem naming names.
HisMan has repeatedly crossed the line, if calling someone what they are is no longer an insult, PIPs use of asshole is completely justified if you use a universal standard, if not, moderate it all because this is just getting absurd.
Jasper has also crossed the line. He apologized, but that doesnt excuse it. Apologies from the pro choice side seem to rarely be accepted, and are simply told they have a warning from my experience here. By the looks of that that policy hasn’t really changed since I left, but someone can feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Jessica also crossed the line, as have one of the anonymous posts, if not both (this thread is so long I can’t remember which I am referring to).
Quite simply, both sides have made jerks of themselves, and its getting absolutely ridiculous. Just close the thread, delete all comments to give people the opportunity to calm down, get to know each other, and get past it.
I can’t believe this is all allowed to go on on a “professional” pro-life website. It’s shameful, period.
Sorry for forgetting to put my name earlier. Also, I thought that HisMan was the one who implied that Natasha Richardson died because of her husband’s movie role, when in actuality that was GG. Sorry HisMan.
“Quite a few assumptions in there my friend.”–HisMan
I’ll admit the “you grew up with it” thing was an assumption. I shouldn’t have assumed that, and I apologize.
But “quite a few?” What else did I assume, HM? That Christianity makes sense to you? I think you’ve proven that. That you put your faith in it? Again, you’ve shown that to be the case. That faith is your own personal choice? I certainly hope that’s the case, and that you weren’t forcibly converted. So please, tell me what other assumptions I made?
“Truth is you haven’t got a clue about me and why I believe.”
I know that you are a Christian, who uses the Bible as fact in a debate, and tells others that if they don’t believe they are going to Hell. This is the entire framework I was operating under when I made my argument. These are not assumptions. This is what you said.
“not to mention that your conclusions on matters of faith are completely ignorant.”
HisMan, please back this statement up. Calling my views ignorant without offering anything to actually refute them contributes nothing to this thread, and reflects much more poorly on you than it does on me.
“I suggest you don’t make any more comments on things which you know nothing of.”
I suggest you don’t make any more comments that are completely devoid of an actual argument. You have done nothing to illuminate how my views on faith are wrong. I would like to know what actual issues you have with what I said. Maybe you can even change my mind. But if you just hurl insults without explaining why you feel the way you do, then we are both missing out on something that could be a profound intellectual and spiritual exercise.
I’ll say it again: Faith is not certainty. In fact, those two things are complete opposites. Faith without reason is fine and usually positive. Certainty without reason is just madness.
Now please, refute this, if you can.
Certainly an interesting coincidence of events in any case
just because you don’t believe in or honor God doesn’t mean He doesn’t love you. He loves you so much He sent His only Son to save you. He loves you now and always has. He will never stop loving you, no matter what you say or do. Accept His love and His gift of Salvation today and be set free! I will pray for you!
Chris:
If you are truly open I will spend the time.
Faith is evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
Now ask me something.
I have to leave shortly so don’t think I’m ignoring you.
If you want to continue this discussion on a more recent post let me know.
HisMan,
Below is the blog in which PIP and Rae like to hang out.
‘pharyngula’ is the piece of scum that desercrated the Holy Eucharest.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/a_heartless_faith.php
Awwww, Jasper’s pretending to be a tough guy! How cute!
Here’s a Puperoni Jasper, why don’t you go outside and go piss on a tree like a good boy?
Prochoice is not the same as what the truth is, which is pro-abortion. If you believe abortion is ever an option, you are not pro-choice, you are pro-abortion. The baby would choose life, and the pro-aborts have taken that choice away. There is not choice for the baby at all.
Thank you, HisMan. I liked your posts!
Who can say why people die? We do not have the mind of God, except through His revealed Truth.
Regarding Nastasha Richardson, who I regard as a vibrant lively woman, I just remembered the other day when an author mentioned Kinsey on the Oprah show, how people BEGGED Neeson and pray for him that he would not lend his stature to that movie. Talk about despicable. That was the definition of Kinsey, his child abuse, and the people who try to pass him off as expert of any kind.
Why don’t the people who say they don’t like attacks, stop attacking people? You know what the root of your problem is, it’s that you think it’s ok to kill babies, to commit infanticide, to harm innocent life – as long as it’s human. Baby animals are another story, even, as with PETA, animals that have been eaten as food for years.
As with the attacks on Gov Palin, it’s not enough for you to launch one. You want to DESTROY your ‘enemy.’ As with Barack Obama, as senator and all his other candidacies, he likes to not just win, he wants to level the playing field so there are no other candidates.
Pray for our country, for the world, for the unborn, for those who most need our prayers, and for the problems now at Notre Dame to remind us that we need to get our Catholic universities to really be Catholic. Even if they accept non-Catholics, or fallen away Catholics, the universities and colleges need to remain true to the Church teachings – lives depend upon it.
Yuck, that site is populated with an evil spirit, one can feel it. This is what I posted – I won’t go back, because what’s the point? But I am so happy for the authors today who are detailing the connections of our freedoms now with the deep faith of our founders. These harpies rant, as they try to suppress ideas and speech, that they are crushed by restrictions. It is the restrictions that allow the freedom.
”Ha ha, are you kidding me? Every one of your rights in this country that allows for freedom, including of speech and movement, etc, are based on the Judeo-Christian tenents of our ancestors. You are a bunch of nasty phonies, who misrepresent the truth and agitate for evil.
You do not understand history, the truth or anything relevant. Your sense of your own intelligence and the world around you lacks depth, context and fidelity. If you believe that there is no God, that there is not soul, then your words, actions and efforts are useless and people can ignore them – and they will disappear in the air.”
Does anyone have any ideas as to why, when a liberal feels they have read something that offends them, that they lose all pretense of niceness, and begin to attack everyone they can? is this a certain kind of mental illness, as Michael Savage says? The WORST attacks I have ever seen are from people who claim to be liberals when they see something they don’t like. They feel they are entitled to attack their object of anger, with no mercy and with complete cruelty. This is what they did to Gov Palin. If they see someone as a real threat, they want to obliterate the person. By the way, I have known REAL liberals and they are NOT this way. They ARE open to different viewpoints. With this others, there is no getting around the fact that they believe there is only one right way, theirs, and that all other voices, opinions and ideas that oppose theirs need to be destroyed. Are they unware of their own craziness, or just unwilling to be aware?
GG,
They are pseudo-liberal relativists, who waffle so much it makes them really insecure. Insecurity breeds fear, fear produces anger, hence the antagonism and childish name calling. They cannot really accept other points of view because just pondering the possibility that they could be wrong is admitting, to themselves principally, and to others that they have in fact failed one more time. And they will say or do anything to keep that from happening!
Rae,
why are you posting as ‘Rose Tyler’?
Jasper, is GG Gingi?
GG-
” Every one of your rights in this country that allows for freedom, including of speech and movement, etc, are based on the Judeo-Christian tenents of our ancestors.”
That is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin.
Another user there posted a fair reason as to why this is true, but there is still so much more that could probably be elaborated on:
“Nope – “You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.”
And as for fredom of religion, another right in western countries – “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; Do not have any other gods before me.””
GG:
As difficult as it is, I try to comment on here using scripture as the foundation.
Everything else is the uselsss opinion of men.
Posting on this site proves to me the absolute fact of the spiritual warfare that is going on all around us.
I will continue the good fight of fatih.
The fog of war can be very exhasuting though if we don’t look to God, for the battle is his.
We are only to ask to be used, be opne to His voice, and to be obedient to whatever He says.
Lord, please have mercy on us all……
The Raving Theist posted pictures of the families that died in the crash. Let’s look at them, shall we? They are absolutely beautiful. Beautiful children and grandchildren. I am so sad for the loss of these families.
http://ravingatheist.com/2009/03/the-hand-of-god/
Dan,
Another job of moderating is trying to steer a thread in a different direction. I have deleted some really nasty posts from one hit wonders. It is up to Jill to close the thread. I appreciate your comments!! Nice to see you back. Sometimes I wish people could moderate themselves. :)
Hey, do those of you who believe that Feldkamp invested in a “death empire” feel the same way about investments in Halliburton or Blackwater?
“Chris:
If you are truly open I will spend the time.
Faith is evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
Now ask me something.
I have to leave shortly so don’t think I’m ignoring you.
If you want to continue this discussion on a more recent post let me know.”
I’d rather continue it here, unless there is a more appropriate topic at this site you can direct me to.
I find your definition of faith a bit confusing. What exactly do you mean by “evidence?” I’ve always been taught, even in church, that faith is believing in something without real, concrete evidence. Of course, the same church told me that if I didn’t have perfect faith–which, by their definition, seemed more like blind certainty–I would go to Hell, so their interpretation seemed a bit hypocritical to me.
I just don’t see how God can blame people for not believing in him, or for not following his One True Religion, whichever that may be. I consider myself saved. I believe Jesus died for my sins, and I love him for that. But I also know that this is a personal choice that has a lot to do with how I was raised and my own life experiences. If I were proved wrong, and Jesus turned out to not be the son of God, I would feel hurt, but not necessarily surprised–because again, I have no evidence of this, it’s just a belief that I choose to put my faith in. It makes sense to me, it makes me feel loved and part of something bigger, but I have no reason to be certain of it because there is no real evidence that it is true. So why would I try to convince other people that it is Divine Truth, unless I was incapable of discerning fact from opinion?
“As difficult as it is, I try to comment on here using scripture as the foundation.
Everything else is the uselsss opinion of men.”
I couldn’t disagree more. The Lord gave us hearts and minds for a reason. To say that they are “useless” and that the only thing that matters is scripture is to criticize God’s own work. I trust the gifts God gave me. I will use the intellectual and emotional powers that God granted me to find the Truth. There are many things in the Bible that advocate abhorrent crimes and sins. I do not believe a just God would write those things. There’s no reason for me to believe that. So yeah, I pick and choose. So do you. So does the Pope. Everyone does.
I have read most, but not all, of the many comments here and I am troubled by a number of them. I have posted the gist of what I am going to write here elsewhere but if it was worth saying once, it won’t hurt to say it again. If it wasn’t? Oh, well.
Someone posted a reminder earlier that God rebuked Job’s three friends for assuming they could speak for Him. That sounds about right to me. Whenever we are tempted to say God did this ___ (whatever actual act/event), in order to accomplish ______ (the result), we are likely to be on shaky ground. We should approach such matters with awe and trembling. God’s ways are not our ways and we simply do not know his mind.
I don’t think the majority of the comments I have read here and elsewhere by Christians have gone quite that far. What I do think is at work is anger on the part of atheists and others at being jarred into remembering that we actually believe what we say we believe and that we do believe that God is always in control of all human events. We speak of God’s love, rightly. But there is also God’s justice to reckon with. He will not allow evil to prevail forever. We can and do try to have our own way but we get only a limited run.
I also think that in their fury the critics are forgetting that all humans seek to derive meaning from tragic events. Turn on the news after any tragedy and watch the talking heads go at it. We need to understand the world around us and make sense of it. A specifically Christian understanding of this kind of event is not going to go down well with those who hate Christianity. But there is simply no help for that.
Thank you, Lily!! Well done good and faithful servant. :)
A specifically Christian understanding of this kind of event is not going to go down well with those who hate Christianity. But there is simply no help for that.
Posted by: Lily at March 28, 2009 1:52 PM
this is absolutely the case, in a nutshell!
Thanks Lily!
Carla,
I think you did an excellent job of moderating this thread. It wasn’t easy. Since we shared the same sentiments I did not envy your task, which you performed very well.
Mary,
Thank you. I appreciate you here very much. I just hope I got to most of the vile comments before anyone else read them. Ugh.
Carla-
I don’t envy you all either, but it’s always frustrating to see something you wish you could take of yourself. If only everyone could moderate each other, but that would lead to a whole host of other issues. Oh human nature…
I wouldn’t say I’m “back,” but I will probably be lurking a bit more than I have been.
Chris:
I don’t think God requires perfect faith. Faith is a gift from God. The measure of it is based on what He has done, not what we do.
Here’s some scriptures for you to think about:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 14:1 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Regarding this quote:
“There are many things in the Bible that advocate abhorrent crimes and sins. I do not believe a just God would write those things. There’s no reason for me to believe that. So yeah, I pick and choose. So do you. So does the Pope. Everyone does.
Posted by: Chris at March 28, 2009 1:10 PM”
Where and when and in what context does the Bible advocate abhorrent crimes and sins?
Let’s keep talking.
Anonymous said “My brother and I went to school with the daughters who were killed. These were pillars of our society. Everyone should leave their father’s dealings out of this and let them have peace.” But what if, as is being suggested here, their father’s business dealings actually caused their death? I think that’s the point of the article.
“Chris:
I don’t think God requires perfect faith. Faith is a gift from God. The measure of it is based on what He has done, not what we do.
Here’s some scriptures for you to think about:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 14:1 (New American Standard Bible)
Romans 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”
Interesting passages, though I admit I am still a bit confused. These lines almost seem to lay the “blame,” if you will, for low faith not on the person, but on God, no? Wouldn’t that screw up the message that only through faith in Christ is one saved?
I am also still curious about what you think about my delineations between faith and certainty.
As for the advocating of sins and crimes, there are many instances, especially in the Old Testament, where the Bible advocates slavery, murder, and genocide.
Thank you Jasper, for posting that link, so everyone can see that in that thread lie the 3 posts that I had copied and pasted here earlier.
It is not against the rules to visit other blogs BTW, or mention someone’s blog in another’s. And because what I said at pharyngula is nothing new (I said the same things here), I feel the attacks on me were unjustified. I apologize though that I didn’t react in a humble way and would have no problem if someone wants to delete the whole conversation or close up the thread.
As for the advocating of sins and crimes, there are many instances, especially in the Old Testament, where the Bible advocates slavery, murder, and genocide.
Chris, that is not exactly true, though I know what you mean. The Bible does not advocate these things– it describes them and, though it jars us today, these things were very much part of iron age (and later) warfare. (I am not so sure war today is essentially any different) Still, it is really hard to read that God commanded it. The question is why do we feel as we do?
In Gen. 15:16 God tells Abraham that “the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.” In other words, their sin, their rebellion against God had not yet reached the “point of no return” when God would have to judge them. Those who look and see only genocide are actually making a moral judgment about all these cities and tribes which that they are not competent to make.
They are saying that these tribes didn’t deserve their fates. But how do they know that? How much do we know about their cultural practices, their beliefs, their morals? Too often readers look at them as innocent victims but how do we know that they weren’t plain evil, unjust, etc? I don’t have a lot of respect for those who practice child sacrifice– something a great many of the nations that surrounded the Hebrews did practice. I am not fundamentally opposed to wiping such tribes out, though I would prefer to stop such practices with less drastic means, if possible.
We also don’t know if wiping out those cities prevented much greater evils. As horrible as the dropping of the atomic bomb was, most people recognize, with sadness, that destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justifiable in bringing an end to the war, since it saved many, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives. A military ground invasion could not have succeeded without catastrophic losses, I am told.
We simply don’t know why those tribes and cities were destroyed and what the outcome would have been had they been spared. As hard as it is to accept this, particularly if you aren’t a believer, only God knows and only he can judge rightly.
If there is a God who is perfectly just and righteous as the Bible says, then he certainly has the right to pass judgment on peoples and nations who live or die by his will alone in any case. To say that wiping them out is wrong presupposes that we have knowledge that we cannot have and rightly tuned moral judgment. But that judgment of right and wrong can only come from God. How can the creature sit in judgment on the creator?
Now, of course, those who don’t believe in God won’t find this helpful. But if there is no God, those things happened because the Hebrews (or whatever warring faction we are looking at) were simply aggressors who murdered to further their own ends. But how do we justify our outrage on moral grounds?
Lily, thank you for the response.
I understand your opinion completely, but I do not agree with a lot of it.
Now, I believe in God. However, I do not think that a God is necessary for there to be an objective right and wrong. That would suppose that God would be right and just no matter what he does, simply because he is God. No, I like to think that God acts morally BECAUSE he is all-knowing and wise–not the other way around. If God is the one who makes the morals, then he can change them at any time, and morality is subjective. I always hear the argument that people who do not believe in God have no reason to behave rightly, but I feel like that puts down Christians more than anyone else–it seems like they’re saying that without fear of being punished for eternity, they would behave like wild animals. Or perhaps God, being the very incarnation of love, IS morality, and that is why He/She (I use this phrase because he is neither) is the structure that the entire universe is built on.
Because I do not take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and acknowledge the possibility that it was written by men, I feel like I can judge the actions of the God presented in it. For instance, the story of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son–I don’t believe that fits into my perception of a just God. IMO, a just God wouldn’t ask for someone to commit murder in order to prove his obedience, because, IMO, there are things more important than obedience. Now, my perception may be wrong, but it’s also possible that the perception of the writers of the Bible were wrong. I don’t think I am judging my creator, I am judging a depiction of the creator. I only hope that the way God is depicted in some of these stories is not the Truth.
I also don’t believe God asks us to sin against him for the Greater Good.
Now, again, I understand your justifications for these stories, which you believe to be the true Word of God, and I don’t mean to disrespect that. You may indeed turn out to be right, and I may have to reconsider my positions. I imagine God would make an excellent debating opponent. ;) I pray that if the time comes when I turn out to be wrong about my perception of the Bible, that God will be merciful and understanding. I do not mean to sin against him by these beliefs, and I believe I have a good, though flawed, relationship with God. I pray every day for a greater understanding of God. I simply don’t put faith in ancient texts, especially when parts of them contradict my morals. I would rather put my faith in the God-given gifts of reason and compassion that I and others have received.
Chris:
God has never delineated a measure of faith. In fact, He says that if we had a faith the size of a mustard seed we could move mountains. I think what He looks for is a heart that seeks to love Him. It’s all about relationship.
As far as certainty goes, I would say confidence is a better word.
The more we walk with God in obedience, the more we pray and talk with Him, the more certain we become of our confidence.
God loves you immensely. More than you can understand. It’s your duty to seek Him with all your heart and it says He is a rewarder of them that do this.
I urge to start a simple conversation with Him. He’s waiting anxiously to hear from you.
As far as the things you read about in the Bible, the wars, the killings, etc. please keep in mind that God is God. God chose to reveal himself through the Jews and no other nation. They were no better than any other people, it simply was God’s choice.
These things you read about were God’s way of purging the world of people that apparently were doing some very, very evil stuff and the risk was they would pollute God’s chosen people. The only thing God could do was eliminate them. It’s sound very harsh but He is God. Let’s face it….if He wanted to snuff you this very second He could. Ask this….why doesn’t He?
It’s because we are now in a dispensation of grace. It won’t always be like this so I urge you to seek Jesus Christ with your whole heart.
As can be seen in today’s world, people don’t often change their ways unless forced to. God cannot accept evil. This is why He destroyed almost all of humanity in a global flood. This is why He’s coming back again to separate those who rejected Him from those who accepted Him. I suggest you seek to accept Him….for there is just no other way.
Chris:
God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to test his faith. Please note that God kept Abraham from following through but instead provided a lamb for sacrifice in a nearby bush. In this account, God is called in Hebrew, Jehovah Jireh or “God will provide”. He provided a substitute sacrifice for the son of promise.
In fact, while God did not require Abraham to sacrifice the very son of promise, the son through which many descendants would come and the promise fulfilled, God indeed sacrificed his own Son, Jesus Christ. Why? Because of his great, great love for us all.
Yes God did indeed provide an eternal sacrifice, the Lamb of God. Can you possibly see God through this perspective?
Chris, I found what you wrote quite moving and I am as sure as I am of anything that God rewards those who seek him. I am completelyly in agreement with this:
Or perhaps God, being the very incarnation of love, IS morality, and that is why He/She (I use this phrase because he is neither) is the structure that the entire universe is built on.
Yes! As I like to say when asked (also, when not asked) we were created in the image and likeness of God which must mean that on some level we have some share of his attibutes– creativity, intelligence, and a whole host of others. We must have some share of his goodness, his sense of justice, etc. or how could we respond to him? What would it mean to us to be told to repent? Indeed Paul writes in one of his letters that nature itself testifies to God.
It is perfectly natural and *right* to be horrified by the bloodshed in many of the stories in the OT. But I think we have to put it in perspective. It might help, if I say a bit about a specifically Catholic perspective on the OT which I share. While we do consider it divinely inspired scripture, the Catechism describes the OT as “partial and imperfect” and says that we read it in “the light of Christ”. That is we start with Jesus.
It is because we believe that he is who he says he is and because he says that we will find him in the OT, that we also look for him there. I don’t think we would find him by starting with it. In fact, when he appeared to a couple of his grieving followers on the road to Emmaus after the crucifixion, they didn’t recognize him. Only that evening did he open their eyes and then, we are told, “..beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself”. (Luke 24:27)
What we take from this is that the Old Testament describes how a ragtag, obscure, warring iron age tribe was chosen by God, shaped by him, and slowly turned into a nation with a rather more sophisticated understanding of who God is and what he demands from his people. They, of course, remained sinners who always managed to find a way to rebel and break the covenants that they had entered into with God. Thus the need for Jesus. (to be con’t. See New Testament)
Well, that is more than enough to indicate how I think we can better understand the OT. It progressively reveals God– not in a learned theological treatise but through the messy and very human deeds of men over a long period of time.
Actually the story of Abraham is more than just a test of faith.
According to John Yoder: “For Abraham in his culture there was nothing morally or culturally abhorrent about sacrificing the life of his firstborn. All the neighbors did the same thing. It was as natural to sacrifice one’s firstborn son, because of the prior claim of God on the fertility of one’s wife and as a way of assuring her future fertility, as it was to sacrifice the firstfruits of the field and the flock for the same reason…We modernize. This kind of sentimental attachment of father to son, if it existed at all in the patriarchal age, can hardly have been viscerally as powerful as it is for us….the issue for Abraham was whether to trust his God for his survival. Isaac was his only legitimate son, and God has promised that Abraham would have a great posterity…The question was not “can I sacrifice my interest to God”? But rather “Can I obey God when He seems to be willing to jeopardize His own purposes?” The answer, “God will provide,” is thus a reassurance not of our own survival or comfort, but of the rationality of obedience which seems ready to jeopardize God’s own purposes.”
I think that’s a pretty good interpretation of that story, PiP, though I think there are lots of levels to it. What did you write that in response to?
Bobby, I wrote it in response to Chris and HisMan’s conversation regarding that story.
HisMan: I know how that story ends. I still have a problem with it. Abraham passes the test by being willing to commit murder in the name of God. The moral of the story is that faith and obedience are more important than anything else. I disagree. If I were Abraham, I would have refused, because I think love and mercy are more important, and I think a just God would agree with that. I may be wrong, of course, and I don’t want to make it sounds like I know better than God. I simply can’t reconcile this story with my view of God.
I don’t think it’s bad to be confident in your Christianity–however, I think when you are in a debate, whether it’s about abortion, gay marriage, whatever–you shouldn’t bring faith into it, and you shouldn’t say things like “I believe it because it is the Truth and God’s word.” Because no matter how confident you are in your faith, it is still a choice, and it is still not entirely based on logic.
Lily: I have always seen the phrase “God created us in his image” the same way. It is not about a physical image, it’s about our soul, the part of us that it like God.
I guess if you operate under the assumption that the Bible is Truth, than you would try to justify many of the Old Testament stories. There’s nothing wrong with that, but I just don’t start with that assumption.
Thanks everybody; this has been a great discussion, and I’ve learned a lot.
Chris,
Make sure you hang around and post every now and then on other, more recent threads. I think I’d enjoy discussions with you. God love you.
I’m concerned that the time spent pointing out these eerie circumstances will do nothing for winning pro-choice people to our camp (and winning them to our camp should be very important if we hope to overturn the system). I think our time is better spent serving women who are suffering from the abortions they’ve undergone, or adopting babies whose parents do not want them, or going to the labor and delivery room with the single mom who decided not to have an abortion. Please reconsider poking these grieving families. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
This is a lie. How sad you would say this…please read. DR Pullan was a DENTIST!
http://www.egcitizen.com/articles/2009/04/01/news/doc49cbf424e82c3597783651.txt
God Bless the family and children who died in this crash and all those who loved them
I hope you know that G-d may judge you harshly for the glee you seem to be taking at this tragedy. If you lose something or someone you love perhaps you’ll remember how cold and calculating you were in your words here and understand that G-d saw all of it.
This post was the opposite of Christian like. Jesus would be ashamed of you.
I hope you know that G-d may judge you harshly for the glee you seem to be taking at this tragedy. If you lose something or someone you love perhaps you’ll remember how cold and calculating you were in your words here and understand that G-d saw all of it.
This post was the opposite of Christian like. Jesus would be ashamed of you.
Why is it that when bad things happen to people you don’t like that you think God is doing an effective job of punishing them. But when bad things happen to good people — you don’t think they’re being punished, do you? Then it’s just “God’s will”.