by Lisa Benson of Townhall.com…
I think Benson has it right. While Sonia Sotomayor’s position on abortion is getting the most press, I think ultimately her opposition to gun rights may prompt the greatest pressure for moderate Republicans and Democrats to oppose her by Second Amendment groups like the NRA.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Yes, the RushLimbican party will prevent her confirmation, just like they prevented the confirmation of Sebelius, and won the election. Dream on.
Today’s quote:
Eccl 11:4 As you know not what is the way of the wind, or how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman, even so you know not the work of God, Who does all. AMP
Companion new testament passage:
John 3:8 The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. AMP
As pro-lifers we focus on the obvious inference to the intra-uterine existence of the pre-natal human, but the common denominator between the OT and NT passages is the ‘NOT knowing’ of the diverse and manifold ways and purposes of God.
1 Cor 8:2 If anyone imagines that he has come to know and understand much [of divine things, without love], he does not yet perceive and recognize and understand as strongly and clearly, nor has he become as intimately acquainted with anything as he ought or as is necessary. AMP
Our ability to understand is limited by our capacity to understand.
We were all conceived impaired and challenged physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.
Then life’s realities wounded what was already broken.
Socrates said the wisest thing a man can say is, “I do not know.” [when he does not know.]
We know very little, and we misunderstand most of the little we do know, especially concerning GOD and HIS ways.
That is why I can confidently say that, ‘Humans are stupid.’
Even very intelligent and accomplished people like Sonia Sotomayor.
yor bro ken
Posted by: Bystander at May 31, 2009 9:34 AM
“Dream on. ”
————————————————-
bs,
Still ‘standing by’?
Like a drunk mouse trying to pick a fight with a bobcat.
Do you lose money wagering on the replay?
Learning slower, forgetting quicker?
The ‘pop’ will come, wait for it.
Try to reduce your actions to a minimun, that may limit the damage.
Hopefully that damage which does occur will not be irreparable.
yor bro ken
Ken, was the “pop” when you lost your marbles and began spewing nonsense nonstop? Yor Bor Ing.
Hey Ing:
Payback’s a b—h.
This too Ing:
The Demoncrat Party led by your Obamanation will pass away as well.
Yor E Vil
Posted by: Bystander at May 31, 2009 9:56 AM
“Ken, was the “pop” when you lost your marbles and began spewing nonsense nonstop?”
——————————————————–
bs,
No, the ‘lost marbles’ and ‘spewing nonsense’ all occurred before the ‘pop’.
The ‘pop’ was the beginning of the end to the insanity known as ‘liberal humanism’.
The ‘pop’ announced and punctuated my liberation.
You never know how far you have fallen til you start making the climb back to sanity.
See movie, ‘Tigerland’ with Collin Ferrell for description of the ‘pop’.
disclaimer: movie contains nudity, gratutious violence, titulating ‘hetero’ sex, profanity and liberal spin that is dizzying. Other than that it is OK.
No animals, plants or rocks were harmed in the making of this film.
Some sensabilities were damgaged beyond repair.
May you hear the ‘pop’ sooner, rather than later.
yor bro ken
It’s only a matter of time until the economy completely collapses, thanks to huge government and debt in the trillions of dollars.
A lot of economists are predicting hyperinflation sooner rather than later.
Yes Barry’s failed policies are something we will all pay a heavy price for within the next couple of years. Unprecidented debt and huge government we are leaving to future generations is terrible.
Funny how pro aborts complain about government interfering with their “right to choose” but they have no problem with government taking over the auto industry, banks, and every other aspect of their lives.
Barry’s failed policies will soon become apparent to even the most ardent liberal.
Then we will see a repeat of 1980 I am sure, when a conservative won a huge landslide against an incumbent President.
But Barry’s policies are so reckless he makes Carter look frugal by comparison. And no doubt the Carter years will seem like “the good old days.”
Never, I repeat, NEVER underestimate the NRA.
I’m not saying that Soto won’t get confirmed, but I can 100% guarantee they will take no prisoners.
I’m so grateful for them.
Joanne:
Interest rates are now on the rise which will now complelty kill off any chance of a real estate recovey and therfore, an economic recovery.
The Chicoms are now dictating our monetary policy so, I wonder what the rest of the world will now think of us? Gee, where have you gone George Bush?
Yep, Obama is exactly the one who we deserved and who is God’s instrument of destruction against our once great country.
The nightmare of Obama is unfolding every day.
Joanne:
Either Obama is a complete idiot or he wants this country to collapse so it can be remade in his image.
While I do think he is an idiot, I think the latter is the most likely scenario.
Joanne 11:28am
Just wait until Barry starts capping the salaries of rich liberals and takes over their companies and the movie studios.
Its fine so long as it happens to someone else.
I have concern about the elections though. Obama has ACORN registering voters and The New Black Panther Party as stormtroopers at the polling places.
Kind of makes one think of the KKK in the old American south.
Ironically, they were and are both tools of Democrats.
Her position on abortion is getting press? Funny, all I’ve been seeing in the press from the GOP is OMG LATINA WOMAN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION RACISM MENSTRUAL LAST NAME STUPID RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!
Reality,
Your post is stupid rabble rabble rabble!!
Let me put it nicely, you’re not making any sense. Take a deep breath and try again.
Hey Barry:
Don’t forget to cap the salaries of LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and all the other black athletes as well. They’ll all drop you like demon possessed pigs running over a cliff.
How about we start paying these athletes what they’re really worth like about $100,000 a year? Perhaps some of those idiots who choose not to finish college will actaully complete their educations so they can make honest livings after their short athletic careers end.
Yep, and let’s give some of that money to the best teachers who are worth about $200,000 a year.
Hi HisMan,
I think Michael Moore, who was so ecstatic when Barry took over GM should also have his salary capped and his documentary production business taken over. Maybe The Leader can get the food police after him as well to control his obviously poor eating habits.
Certainly if the city gov’t can decide that the obese residents of a low income area in Los Angeles should not have access to fast food, then the same rules can apply to the wealthy supporters of Obama as well.
And when is Obama going after Oprah! Her numerous homes, private jet, and ahem, poor eating habits.
Be careful what you wish for you rich Obama supporting liberals…! When the gods want to punish man they answer their prayers.
Mary and His Man soak up the far right wing racist crazy talk from Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck all week and then spew it out on the weekend.
The crazy talk about Sotomayer, who is clearly qualified and whose judicial record is very conservative, is another suicide mission for the Repubs, who now want to alienate all Hispanics and women. I am sure that will work out well.
BS,
Spare me. I don’t like to dignify stupidity by responding to it and I won’t make an exception now.
Mary why do you “dignify” the stupidity of Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck by repeating ad nauseum whatever they spew? Give it a break.
Mary,
Let me put it nicely, the GOP is not making any sense.
There, fixed that for you.
Looks like you folks have another hero to worship today:
http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1225769.html
Sorry, “reality”, you’re as confused as ever – you’re the one who loves murder.
Interesting to see Reality and Bystander posting more. I cant count how many times I have called both of you morons out for the stupidity of your words only to see you continually ignore my criticisms. It amazes me that, in general, the liberal wackjobs, who praise inteligence and reason, continually refuse to implore anything other than strawman arguments, ad hominems, and circular reasoning.
Don’t forget to cap the salaries of LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and all the other black athletes as well. They’ll all drop you like demon possessed pigs running over a cliff.
How about we start paying these athletes what they’re really worth like about $100,000 a year? Perhaps some of those idiots who choose not to finish college will actaully complete their educations so they can make honest livings after their short athletic careers end.
Yep, and let’s give some of that money to the best teachers who are worth about $200,000 a year.
Posted by: HisMan at May 31, 2009 11:46 AM
I thought you once said you had friends who were former NFL players. Do they know how you really feel about professional athletes?
“I cant count how many times I have called both of you morons out for the stupidity of your words only to see you continually ignore my criticisms.” Posted by: Oliver at May 31, 2009 12:42 PM
Let’s see, if Oliver makes a criticism or calls someone a moron, that means that they should not have the nerve to ignore his criticisms or keep posting? If only the internet worked that way. You didn’t include me this time in your attack, but I can assure you I’d be very happy also to ignore your criticisms any time. Perhaps ignoring you is a type of critique.
Gerry,
I only want to keep women safe.
No, ignoring me is not a critique. It is a statement that you cannot and do not want to engage in a reasonable debate. Do you really think this quote is one of reason Hal?
“Her position on abortion is getting press? Funny, all I’ve been seeing in the press from the GOP is OMG LATINA WOMAN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION RACISM MENSTRUAL LAST NAME STUPID RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!! ”
Then again, who am I kidding asking you about reason? The three of you are prime examples of the mental filth of humanity. Support any position you want, but do it with more thought than a toddler gives her choice of breakfasts.
Oliver,
Interesting to see Reality and Bystander posting more.
That’s funny. I’ve posted here a lot less since Obama was elected.
I cant count how many times I have called both of you morons out for the stupidity of your words only to see you continually ignore my criticisms.
But I CAN count the number of times I’ve called you a moron: 0.
It’s nice to be able to rely on reality-based arguments instead of name-calling.
That is terrible news about Dr. Tiller. I’m without words. I’m done posting here for awhile. Good luck all, be well, be kind, and try to assume the best about those you disagree with.
Do you really think this quote is one of reason Hal?
Actually, that was me. And it is quite reasonable. Have you seen the nonsense the GOP has been spewing this week? It’s shameful.
You have never used a reality based argument my friend and this is why you never respond to any argument I put forth to you. You dont know what to say. If you think otherwise, lets debate the moral justification for abortion when I get back from Seaworld tonight.
Reality: “Actually, that was me. And it is quite reasonable. Have you seen the nonsense the GOP has been spewing this week? It’s shameful. ”
I know you posted that. I quoted it in response to the rebuff that my criticisms towards you are unwarranted. Are you really this dense? Besides, the GOP does not say those things and you are using your “reality” to put forth the argument that they do. Regardless of what the GOP is actually saying, you are using your reality altered argument to sound stronger. This is why you are a moron.
I just read that George Tiller has been shot and killed at church?
anyone? help?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124379172024269869.html
I read that Tiller was killed and my heart completely fell into my stomach. This means several things:
1. Pray for the man and his family. He wasn’t a good person, but that doesn’t mean that he should have been shot and murdered. We must respect his right to life, too.
2. Pray for the pro-life movement, because, as we all know, what one radical does will come back at all of us.
Keep up the hard work, and keep Tiller’s family in your prayers. :(. This is a sad day.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html
more above
PD 1:05PM
You mean like Obama’s friends Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn?
Also, do you know for absolute certain who shot him or anything at all about the person?
BS 12:28PM
Kindly refer back to my 12:20PM post.
I don’t yet know the motive for the shooting, or even whether Mr. Tiller was the intended target. Supposing he was shot by an anti-abortionist (i.e. inconsistent pro-lifer taking vengeance into his own hands), I want to say this:
“When will they ever learn?”
A third wrong does not right the first wrong any more than the second did. If it’s wrong to “solve” a rape by committing an abortion, then it’s also wrong to “solve” an abortion by killing the abortionist. Violence begets violence. A man violates a woman, who in turn violates their child, whose defenders in turn violate the abortionist.
Whoever of you loves life
and desires to see many good days,
keep your tongue from evil
and your lips from speaking lies.
Turn from evil and do good;
seek peace and pursue it.
The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their cry;
the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to cut off the memory of them from the earth. (Ps. 34:12-16)
Vannah 1:16PM
I can’t find anywhere who is alleged to have killed him. Until we know for absolute certain let’s not make any assumptions.
all I can say is that today, George Tiller met every single one of those babies he killed – yes murdered and that he KNOWS today the truth.
He knows why he was wrong and why what he did was so terribly wrong. He now has the perfect knowledge of his crime against a loving God.
I”m not saying that it was good he was shot. One always hopes that someone with this much blood on their hands will repent before being brought before the throne of God.
But he did die the way he lived – in murder and amid blood.
May God truly have mercy on his soul but may God also be just.
Reality 12:31PM
Speaking of making sense, exactly what is a “menstrual last name”? Or were these two different things you were referring to.
Reality 12:31PM
Speaking of making sense, exactly what is a “menstrual last name”? Or were these two different things you were referring to.
Reality 12:48PM
With the exception of those still residing in the womb of course.
Has Bobby seen this yet?
A 16-year-old Iraqi immigrant living in Sweden has cracked a maths puzzle that has stumped experts for more than 300 years, Swedish media reported on Thursday.
I’m curious to see what the formula looks like!
Oh, I’m sorry. Another source says that “Although the Bernoulli numbers formula had previously been solved, Altourmaimi’s solution was praised because of his young age and school level, the paper reported.”
This woman is surprisingly center-of-left on the abortion issue, especially on her view of the Mexico City policy. Perhaps she sees abortion funding as a way the US and the UN will subjegate Latin America under population control and eugenics??? And so the democrats are not all happy with Obama’s pick. Republicans need to get their priorities straight. We are dealing with radical socialist eugenics here. If Sotomayor is rejected as left-of-center by Congress, what kind of second choice will Obama give them? He won’t swing further to the right! I pray that the democrats in Congress accept her–what follows her rejection is only radical socialist eugenics.
Farslowe
Do you have the name and background of Tiller’s alleged murderer? If so please share it since I can’t find any such info.
Shep,
Did it ever occur to you that Jill hasn’t gotten word of it yet or is unable to get to a computer?
I am in shock over Tiller’s murder.
I absolutely am sickened by the murder of anyone and am horrified that Tiller was killed. This act of violence was cowardly and I am also saddened at the thought of what Tiller’s family is going through, not to mention all of those who witnessed his murder.
May God have mercy on Tiller’s soul! It must have been undescribably horrible for his family and friends to witness such brutality firsthand. In a church of all places! Whoever did this was no friend of the pro-life movement.
One last thought. While I’m glad the moderators are removing the inappropriate comments celebrating the murder of this man, it is cleansing the historical records a bit. I wouldn’t want a casual reader here to think that everyone has been as decent and compassionate as Carla, Fed up, and Jon.
There will be no celebrating a murdered man. You will be deleted immediately, cause I’m kinda crazy like that. Move along.
Hal, we also don’t want people to believe that Tiller was a hero. Because he wasn’t. He murdered unborn babies for a living. And he was completely and wholly protected by the judiciary whenever he broke even the most lenient of abortion laws.
Abortion is a terrible social injustice. No law can make this right unless it is a law that recognizes the dignity and right to life of all human beings from conception until death.
Until we have such a law, our society will continue to devour itself.
“Actually, that was me. And it is quite reasonable. Have you seen the nonsense the GOP has been spewing this week? It’s shameful.”
Using more strawmen,again, I see.
I am just sickened about the news of Dr. Tiller. May God have mercy on his soul.
Carla 3:11PM
Like your handling of the thread concerning the death of an abortionist’s family in the plane, you are again showing class and a true prolife stance.
“Until we have such a law, our society will continue to devour itself.”
Angel, this is so true. Evil only begets more evil.
yes Eileen#2. There is no solution to the injustice of abortion. And it only breeds more evil. Evil between men and women, between doctors and patients, between the people and government and between man and God.
“I absolutely am sickened by the murder of anyone and am horrified that Tiller was killed. This act of violence was cowardly and I am also saddened at the thought of what Tiller’s family is going through, not to mention all of those who witnessed his murder.”
I agree, Carla. My prayers are with his family and all who were witnesses to such violence.
A
Mary- the only information about the alleged shooter that I have read so far is that he was recognized by several members of Tiller’s congregation as a frequent protester. I think that’s all they’ve released so far.
Check that, I just refreshed my news and apparently they now have a suspect in custody.
To the Tiller family:
Your family member should have never been murdered today. I’m sorry for this loss in your family, may TIller rest in peace.
While I didn’t agree with his business practice I do understnad that no one should be murdered, every life has a purpose and for someone to take the life of another is not right.
I pray for some peace for the Tiller family since everyone knows that the media is going to have a hayday with this. Tiller may not have lead a life that us pro-lifers like but no one deserves to be murdered! I wanted justice for Tiller, maybe some jail time, community service, repentence, self forgiveness, but that is not in our hands anymore it is in God’s hands now.
Erin,
Thank you. That’s all I have heard as well.
I wanted justice for Tiller, maybe some jail time, community service, repentence, self forgiveness, but that is not in our hands anymore it is in God’s hands now.
Posted by: AK Krystal at May 31, 2009 3:34 PM
amen. Except that after death there is no time for repentence. Our souls are judged as they are the moment we leave this earth. :(
My goodness, the thought is overwhelming….
Oh my word, I just heard about Dr. Tiller. I am in shock…
I am deeply saddened by this. I hope they catch the person who did this and bring him to justice. This is not the way to solve anything. I can’t imagine what his family must be going through right now…
This is not the way to solve the abortion issue. They were SO close to revoking his license to practice “medicine” in Kansas.
This is NOT the way Pro Lifers practice and Tiller was NOT a HERO in any means.
I think Robert George’s response to Tiller’s murder is very well stated.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDM5NGYyYWMxZDY3NWFmYjhjZmJiNTI2YmRjZmRlYWE=
” I hope they catch the person who did this and bring him to justice”
Yeah, because Kansas jurists are so competent. I can’t help but think that if they had done their job correctly Tiller would be alive and safe in jail where he belonged.
By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller’s life was precious.
From Robby George.
Devo, your comment was deleted. Accusing a commenter here of murder is unacceptable.
@ angel,
I know that, but I really wanted Tiller to have a chance of repentence for his deeds in life. I think everyone should be repenting when we relize me made a mistake. Although, I never knew Tiller went to church so I am happy for the fact that he did attend a place that was preaching the word of God to him.
I feel bad for his wife though, to watch your husband be shot to death must be a horrible thing. I couldn’t even imagine! Mrs. Tiller, put your husband to rest and go somewhere the media cannot find you so you can greive this out for a bit. Sometimes being alone with God is the only way to help the pain.
Ray,
Do you know for a fact the shooter was either pro-life or Christian? So far all I have heard is a suspect is in custody.
Ray the prolife movement is made up of nonviolent everyday people from all walks of life who do not believe in bombing clinics, killing abortionist etc. Most have a very strong belief in God and have families etc. Murder is murder, whether it is by the vacuum suction machine or a bullet to the head.
However it has been my experience that the pro”choicers” who demonstrate are often very vulgar, crass, violent, threatening persons from the margins of society.
Do I believe all people who support abortion are like this? I don’t believe so. I don’t think Hal or Doug are like this.
Mary, are you suggesting that he was randomly murdered in church by someone who wasn’t pro-life? Christian, I have no idea about…just pointing out that it wasn’t a very Christian thing to do.
And what was it about my post that was so offensive that a moderator deleted it? It is hard not to be cynical about the so-called nonviolent anti-abortion movement when abortion doctors keep getting shot.
I really wanted Tiller to have a chance of repentence for his deeds in life
Krystal, my personal view is that none of us know what happened in those final moments as his soul took flight into eternity. Tiller spent the last minutes of his life in a house of God. I pray that he was fully focused on God in those last moments and that he turned toward the mercy, forgiveness and love the Just Judge offers all of us.
YLT, the murderer is no hero. He’ll be no martyr if he’s executed. There’s too much injustice here. This wasn’t only an unjust act toward Tiller. It was an injustice to his family and friends, to all the witnesses, to the church community where it took place, and to the entire pro-life movement. The act is too life-unaffirming for any consideration of heroism or martyrdom.
Hal,
I would never EVER want anyone to be killed in that manner, born or unborn. This is not good in any sense of the word.
Carla, I got your back.
If anyone here remembers SOMG, he had threatened Fr. Pavone of Priests for Life with death if an abortionist were to be murdered.
So pray for Tiller, his family, and Father Pavone.
Man, this is horrible.
Ray 4:51PM
So you admit you are only assuming the person is Christian or Prolife and do not know this to be a fact. Thank you.
Abortion doctors keep getting shot? When was the last time it happened?
let’s not forget the thousands of babies Tiller has killed. He was truly an evil man.
Fed-UP I agree with you on both counts.
This is the era of Divine Mercy. Sister Faustina has stated that she was told that souls in danger of hell are would be given a last chance between judgment and death to repent. My understanding (which someone may correct) is that there are simply so many souls in our age who are condemned that God wishes to extend a special mercy to them. In many cases these people have only had the bad example of others, the scandal, the bad society that exists today.
I fully believe that George Tiller will have seen each and every one of the souls he aborted. He will fully know and understand the plan God had for each of those persons and how the murder of them thwarted God’s plan and love here on Earth.
The fact that he was in church means on some level (I hope) that Tiller believed in God. Surely he must have believed in heaven and hell. I simply can’t fathom how this man saw what he was doing was a good thing. I simply can’t understand this.
I don’t know ANYONE on this site that has advocated murdering abortionists.
If you are here to incite, like I said you will be deleted. You want to discuss then discuss.
Thanks Carder.
re: Fed Up at May 31, 2009 4:52 PM
It’s genuinly heartening to hear you say that (no sarcasm implied or intended). When violence strikes I often think of this – RFK’s speech on the occasion of the death of Martin Luther King Jr. (http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/rfk.htm).
This isn’t to imply that Dr. Tiller is\was of the magnitude of Dr. King, more to speak to the positive ways in which rage can be channeled, as noted by Mr. Kennedy.
Carla I agree – I can’t think of anyone on Jill’s blog who has advanced the idea that killing abortionists would be moral, productive or justified.
You don’t remedy an injustice with another injustice.
What was perpetrated today was a terrible sin. Good grief. :(
It looks like this place is being “moderated” with such a heavy hand today that only a fraction of the conversation is getting through. Are you really that afraid of what people actually think?
Question for all… do the events of today nullify the questions regarding the second ammendment and the supreme court nominee?
Apologies for my last remark about the moderators…I thought my second post had been deleted when in fact it had not.
Let me spell it out for you Ray. Say what you think without any contempt for any movement or religion, particularly prolifers or Christianity and your comments can stay ok, pumpkin?
I am not afraid. I am sickened and disheartened at today’s events and what the backlash is going to be. Violence solves nothing. George Tiller was murdered in cold blood in his church!! SICK, SICK, SICK!!!
Praying for Tiller’s family and friends.
YLT 5:10PM
Let’s keep in mind that Dr.King was killed by a white male so it goes without saying that all white males are racist, violent, and advocate murder. James Earl Ray represented white males and by virtue of being a white male, one was responsible for the death of Dr.King.
Ray,
Apology accepted. Pumpkin. :P
Just heard about Tiller. I am very surprised. I’m sorry that he never repented. May God be with his family.
Violence begets violence.
Not so much a condemnation of the Tiller murder from Randall Terry:
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/8967610531.html
“George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God.”
A great man and a hero for the rights of women was murdered today Angel, Fed Up ect
that is a matter of opinion.
My question to you Kelly, is what is the difference between the death of Tiller and the death of the babies he aborted at 24 weeks or 28 weeks? Why are these deaths different?
angel, they are no different. Tiller was no hero. To make claim that he was is laughable. I’m sorry. Feeling sorry for Tiller is like feeling sorry for Hitler. I AM sorry that he didn’t repent before his death though. I’ll leave it at that!
This is NOT the way Pro Lifers practice and Tiller was NOT a HERO in any means.
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at May 31, 2009 3:50 PM
I feel the same way. This is the second recent murder in a church, I remember a pastor was killed in front of the congretation several weeks back and I think not far from where Tiller was located.
Just heard about Tiller. I am very surprised. I’m sorry that he never repented. May God be with his family.
Posted by: heather at May 31, 2009 5:27 PM
He may have repented before his last breath. My prayers are with his family and friends.
…”and will Promptly tell anyone who works against such rights in my presence to shut up (and not stop screaming till they are silenced)…and I will point out this incident if they even DREAM of trying to take some moral ‘high ground’ in oppositon”
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 5:31 PM
Instead of working to silence opposition and exploiting a single, tragic incident to bully others into silence, perhaps you could explain the merits of abortion and let the pro-choice stance speak for itself? If abortion is worthy of being called a woman’s right, then it’s worthiness will be apparant with no need to scream.
They ask that he be remembered as a great husband, father, grandfather and defender of the rights of women.
who defended the 28 week old female babies who had their skulls crushed in his clinic?
Who defended the women who died from their botched abortions in his clinic?
Kelly I agree there is a great deal of tragedy here. There is the tragedy of the babies who died in Tiller’s clinic. There is the tragedy of the women harmed in Tiller’s clinic. There is the tragedy of Tiller’s murder. And there is the tragedy of the person who murdered Tiller.
Very sad indeed.
Janette,
That’s a very good idea. I’d like to hear the merits of abortion
* * *
Kelly,
Fetuses are baby persons.
I did, Jasper. Please stop.
Hi Kelly. I pray for the grace of final repentance for anyone who’s at death’s door. My understanding of the teaching of most Christian traditions is that we can commit many offenses against God, irrespective of whether the denomination views abortion as a sin in the eyes of God.
I sincerely hope that Dr Tiller is in Paradise. I do not wish eternal damnation on anyone. I pray that he repented of anything offensive in the eyes of God. I believe that abortion is a sin and that God makes that plain to us, but I also know that I am NOT God and that God judges everyone more fairly and more mercifully than I could ever hope to.
He may have repented before his last breath. My prayers are with his family and friends.
Posted by: Janet at May 31, 2009 5:46 PM—————————————————————– Janet, I can only hope. I thought the same thing.
re: Mary at May 31, 2009 5:22 PM
What does race have to do with it? I’m sorry you can’t see the larger context that RFK was speaking to: a positive way to respond to violence. His brother was shot by a white guy, as was MLK jr. He understood the rage, but he also understood the value of positive solutions to problems rather than violent solutions. One can understand another person’s point of view without condoning it or taking it as their own.
He was a person Angel. The fetuses aborted were just that, fetuses.
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 5:46 PM
oh, I get it! :( Even at 28 weeks, Kelly with basically all bodily systems functioning and the ability to respond to pain and the ability to survive outside the womb?
Janette: very good point.
I might add however that people such as Kelly believe that the rights of some people (women) depend upon others not having any rights. How is this just?
Kelly, a fetus is a human being.
YLT,
He also understood the importance of not holding all responsible for the actions of a lunatic or two.
I was just using the arguments your side uses YLT, that all PL people are responsible for the actions of a lunatic or two.
Now you know how it sounds and how much sense it makes.
I stand by all I have written, from the stances of many denominations that abortion is not a sin, to the fact that I realize most anti choice persons are not violent nor condoning of this. But especially that this is already having the effect I described with my friend who WAS on the fence as were many others.
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 5:57 PM
how is that a rational response to a serious life issue?
Really, to make a sincere well informed decision one needs to investigate such an issue fully.
Honestly will your friend be able to defend her decision other than to say she became proabortion because prolifers are mass-murdering abortionists. How intelligent is that, Kelly?
Kelly 5:46PM
These “fetuses” might be called premature babies under different circumstances.
Can you tell me what genetic changes take place to transform a fetus into a person and when this occurs? Is it during passage through the birth canal?
Tiller was not a hero. He killed children and harmed women. He killed Christin Gilbert, an abortion patient. Nope. Hero is the wrong word for him.
Kelly 5:31PM
Before you scream at PL people to shut up and keep screaming until we are silent, remember we have something in this country called freedom of speech.
And please, stop blaming “rhetoric”.
People who are prominent in any way have plenty of hateful rhetoric directed against them.
Were you ever concerned that the hateful rhetoric against Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter, or Rush Limbaugh could result in violence?
There are plenty of loonies looking to make names for themselves or under some kind of delusion they are doing the human race a service.
Mary, thank you!!!
Kelly,
Whoa there. YOU said fetus as opposed to a person. I am asking you a perfectly legitimate question as to what differentiates the two and when this takes place.
Certainly you can show me what the distinct difference is and how and when it occurs.
Also, why are you so afraid of debate. If you’re going to shut us up you’ve got to be prepared to debate and back it up with facts.
wow Kelly, chill much?
You dont get to set the terms of any debate.
Indeed, there is no debate.
Really, maybe it’s a done deal for you Kelly but it’s not for many many people. I see lots of debate all over America about abortion. It’s in the news, on the internet, even on blogs like this one!
We prolifers are not simply gonna lay down and die so you can go on killing babies under the guise of “women’s rights”.
Women have a legal right to abortion NOW. But my understanding is that Tiller broke the law many times and that his practice of abortion resulted in women dying. His practice was often “outside” the law.
Are you so enamoured of your beloved right to abortion that you support abortionists even if they are no better than the “backstreet” choppers that you claim legal abortion protects women from?
And you still have not answered how supporting abortion based on Tillers death is a rational, intelligent way of responding?
But then again, since when has the pro”choice” movement EVER presented a rational intelligent reason for the destruction of 50 million children in America? WHEN, Kelly?
Emma, I do feel bad for his family. I’d like to think that he may have repented before his eternal demise. Despite what you PCers may think, we want abortionists to have eternal life in heaven, but unless they repent, this wont happen.
Kelly,
What do you think of Tiller hiring people off the streets to work for him? I checked it out and couldn’t find any kind of credentials or medical training of any kind for his staff.
I understand patients were supervised and medicated by untrained and unlicensed staff. They were sent to the nearby hotel to abort.
Do you happen to know if Kansas has a licensing and regulation agency or maybe a Board of Health?
Personally, we pro-lifers don’t rejoice at the thought of anyone being murdered, even an abortionist like Dr. Tiller.
None of us are perfect and all of us need God’s mercy.
However, we who understand this do not think it a waste of time to declare that all murder is wrong, especially the murder of innocent children in the womb.
The shedding of innocent blood begets the shedding of blood. It’s a spiritual law. That’s why we pro-lifers plead for life and want all abortion to be delegalized because ultimately it will just end up in more blood being shed as in the case of the Civil War.
I would challenge anyone to name one legitimate pro-life leader or spokesperson who has supported the killing of George Tiller.
Also, why are you so afraid of debate. If you’re going to shut us up you’ve got to be prepared to debate and back it up with facts.
Posted by: Mary at May 31, 2009 6:22 PM
Mary, the pro”choicers” are NOT interested in debate. They are interested in ramming their ideology down our throats.
Nothing matters except the rhetoric of “my body, my choice” (NOT your body, therefore NOT your choice) and “no more coathangers” (yup, that’s how most women aborted themselves pre-Roe)
We cannot allow them to stifle the debate. We must engage people even more – this life issue is of the utmost importance. We must not be silent.
We cannot continue to allow these people to destroy our culture’s future – our children.
HI Angel,
Apparently so since we’re going to be screamed at until we are silent!
I believe that Tiller once said that perfoming abortions would be “worth burning in hell for.”
I’m going to try to be calm, but right now is not really a point where most of those who are actually upset about Dr. Tiller’s murder are interested in civil debate. I’m trying to avoid getting involved because I am filled with anger, and sadness, and confusion. Perhaps you could imagine how you would feel if some great PL advocate had been gunned down and how you would feel if people tried to engage you in a debate about how wrong that dead person and you are.
Have some pity.
Emma, I have a little trouble showing too much compassion for a man who took arm loads of dead babies and tossed them into an oven at his clinic. Sorry. Maybe it’s just too soon to discuss it all.
Hi Erin,
Perhaps if grief stricken Kelly didn’t want to engage in civil debate she should not have come to this site and ranted about shutting us up.
We didn’t go trolling for her.
Erin:
Speaking for myself, I am not happy about this either. I am in shock.
It would have been better from my point of view if Dr. Tiller changed his mind about abortion on his own and then became a pro-life advocate.
Again, I plead with those who support abortion to review what they believe because ultimateley abortion results in tragedy for everyone involved; the mother, the baby, the abortionist, the supporters of abortion and us pro-lifers as well.
What happened today was not good. I am very, very sad and shaking my head saying it doesn’t have to be this way.
On the flip side, maybe Tiller did believe that he was helping women get on with their lives. Heck, if a woman wants her husband dead, a hit-man might feel like he’s helping her to get on with her life too. Let’s eliminate the problem, the husband, and you can pay me. We’ll all get on with our lives.
HisMan 6:49PM
Very well said. Thank you.
Kelly,
So you didn’t come here, to a pro-life blog, to debate, because you say there is no debate? You just came to tell us that you will scream until the opposition is silenced?
You’re obviously free to do that, but, ummm…not sure I’m understanding the point.
Mary, right! His Man, I agree 100%. Erin, I am sorry that it came to this. My prayers are with his family. My prayers are with Tiller. May God have mercy on his soul for eternity.
It would have been better from my point of view if Dr. Tiller changed his mind about abortion on his own and then became a pro-life advocate.
Absolutely! Imagine if someone had done in Dr. Nathanson? He would never have become prolife and never have become a Catholic. It was the prayers of prolifers who converted this man along with the grace of God and his open heart. I believe he genuinely wanted to discover the truth.
God is much more patient than man, in these matters.
Good points by Mary and Janette. Screaming is not the way to win over a person. Intelligent argument and reason are though.
Yes. Abortion is a lose, lose situation for our nation!
Kelly:
Obviously you are very upset.
However, your rants and assertions that abortion is not a sin are completely irrational and indicative of a lack of knowledge of who God is.
A God who creates life, Who is responsible for all conceptions and in fact, breathes life and an eternal soul into each fertilized human egg, would never consent to the contradiction of the intent of His will as expressed in the human decision to have or perform an abortion.
So go ahead and scream all you want. You are not going to change God’s mind on the subject even if you find a million theologians who agree with you.
God’s ways are unchangeable, immovable and inexorable no matter how much you express your disagreement is such childish ways. He is not called The Rock for nothing.
You are not God, He is.
This murder just shows the need for better survailance of anti life extremists, more judges such as the one this administration is appointing, and anti choice speech to be regulated as potential hate speech via hate crime laws.
Only one to shout it down when that person knows he is right.
First off, the word is “surveillance” (hint: it’s of french origin and means “to watch over”).
Thank you for showing your true colors Kelly – as a bigoted, narrow-minded person who believes in totalitarian and draconian measures to ensure that YOUR view of life, liberty and the American way comes to pass.
You present yourself here as an prochoice goon and nothing more.
And how intelligent, shouting down one’s opponent. Nice. That’s sure to win people over to your cause. I think people are little smarter than you take them for, Kelly.
Kelly:
In fact, you a very much like the person who murdered Dr. Tiller today for your heart is full of hatred for those of us who disagree with you.
In fact, as science discovers more and more about the beginnings of life it is people like you who are more like flat earthers than we pro-lifers are. Science is on our side, not yours.
The more you comment, the more you sound like an absolute spoiled brat.
anti choice speech to be regulated as potential hate speech via hate crime laws
Your hypocrisy is astounding, Kelly. Under the guise of protecting “choice” you would silence those who choose to speak out an opposing viewpoint. You aren’t for choice. You’re for tyranny. Big difference.
just curious Kelly……
What species were you when your very own mother was pregnant with you?
You were once a fetus….oh wait, were you a baby because you “wanted”? Does being “unwanted” make you any less HUMAN? I’ve never heard of a “fetus shower”…..just BABY showers.
Rights of women…….what about the women whom he injured physically? What about the future women who were killed by the act of abortion? What about THEIR rights?
Kelly,
Such a bastion of tolerance. My opinion is worthy of the KKK? Are you aware is was the PC idol Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who addressed the women’s auxilliary of the KKK? Being the Klan was so prominent and powerful, the gracious Mrs.Sanger could hardly claim blissful ignorance of the Klan and what it stood for as an excuse. How nice the KKK ladies could take a day off from burning crosses and lynching black citizens to attend Mrs. Sanger’s speech.
Better surveillence of “anti-life extremists”? I’d prefer better surveillence of gangs that gun down innocent people in the street, something that seems to generate little outrage.
I can find nothing on the background of the suspect so far, only his name. Do you have information that verifies he is definitely involved in “anti-life extremism”?
Anti choice speech to be regulated? Who will determine what can be said and by who? Maybe we can work together to curtail hate speech against Sarah Palin, make it a crime. What do you think?
Also Kelly, prior to Roe v Wade the death rate from illegal abortion had been steadily declining for years. Dr. Nathanson admits abortion advocates deliberately lied to the public about the number of illegal abortions and the death rate. The death rate steadily declined because of medical advances including intravenous therapy, antibiotics, and better surgical techniques.
Again Kelly, if you want to shut us up one way or the other, be prepared to debate and back up your arguments with facts. Come to think of it, hate speech laws would give you an easy out on that one wouldn’t they?
Please go to the websites of the Evangelical Lutheran, Presbyterian or Anglican churches, among others. The positions on abortion not being a sin or an allowable action that should be safe and legal are there to see if you care to look. He was in a Lutheran Church where he and his wife were active members in good standing when we was killed in cold blood, remember?
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 7:13 PM
so what?
It doesn’t matter what religion he belongs to. The question is: Is abortion a morally permissible act?
It was wrong of Tiller to be killed in cold blood just as it was wrong for him to kill all those babies and women through abortion. The Lutheran Anglican or Presbyterian churches saying it was right doesn’t make it necessarily so.
There has to be an objective knowable truth regarding the morality of abortion. Using faith and reason as opposed to screaming and irrational, animal responses is the way to determine this. Many people are still undecided about abortion. But when they see the science, and understand the reasoning, they usually recognize that an aborted baby is a dead human person.
All I know Kelly, is that if you were aborted years ago, you would not be here today. And that would be a sad thing. God had a purpose for making you and wanting you alive at this time and in the place you live.
Fed UP 7:12PM
Excellent points made.
Kelly,
Did religious support of slavery, segregation, or white supremacy make any of these right?
Fed Up and Mary, excellent posts!
Kelly:
Forget what any particular denomination says.
What does God’s Word say?
“Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (New International Version)
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Notice where it says, “so that you and YOUR CHILDREN MAY LIVE” and also the association to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which means that this promise is to be universally applied to everyone and forever.
So Kelly, take your money and rather invest it in bible study instead of an assumed and very erroneous conclusion on what God thinks about abortion.
If Dr. Tiller had heeded this message he would still be alive.
“There has to be an objective knowable truth regarding the morality of abortion. Using faith and reason as opposed to screaming and irrational, animal responses is the way to determine this.”
So tell me why it is that your particular Catholic faith gets to determine what this “objective knowable [moral] truth” is even though other churches such as the Anglican or Lutheran Churches have come to a different conclusion? You’re all reading from the same holy book, why is one interpretation inherently more correct than another?
Devo: when discussing abortion we look to science to provide basic facts.
Based on science we can determine when life begins. Every basic college biology textbook and every basic embryology and medical textbook is in agreement on this. The Catholic church does not write science textbooks, FYI.
If a human being exists then apparently the question today becomes it is a person?
This is a philosophical and ethical question. Therefore we must turn to philosophy and ethics to see what our great thinkers have reasoned out. There are many great thinkers but the best are those of the Catholic church, which has always been a leader in this area.
We also use faith as a guide – all christian denominations as well as the Catholic church follow the same 10 commandments – one of which I believe is Thou shalt not kill.
At one time ALL Christian denominations held that abortion was murder. One must consider WHY they chose at this time, when we have more scientific knowledge and a greater understanding of our world around us, and when we have more wealth and greater resources than ever, to now label abortion as a choice.
Indeed it IS most curious.
YLT, first racism and now gays??? Come on! Homosexuality is an abomination. God doesn’t HATE homosexuals. He hates their lifestyle!
God loves EVERYONE YLT! God loves you YLT!
So tell me why it is that your particular Catholic faith gets to determine what this “objective knowable [moral] truth” is even though other churches such as the Anglican or Lutheran Churches have come to a different conclusion? You’re all reading from the same holy book, why is one interpretation inherently more correct than another?
Posted by: Devo at May 31, 2009 7:42 PM
————————-
Because the same “holy book” as you term it warns us that there will be those that choose to follow doctrines of demons. That is their choice.
To believe in a God who creates life out of love and then accepts abortion as a righteous act is illogical and makes a liar out of Him. It is making God in our own image.
Don’t forget that we have a mortal enemy, Satan, who was able to deceive 1/3 of the angels in Heaven, who knew God, who lived in His Presence. It is Satan who distorts and counterfeits everything God does and even believers, even whole denominations can be deceived. And His weapons are subtle appeals to our hearts like, “it saves the life of the mother”, “it’s your body”, “it’s just a blob of tissue”, “it would be better for the baby if it did not have to suffer a life of poverty”, ad infinitum.
Satan’s modus operandi is to distort and to deny God’s Word. Our response is to obey God’s Word by believing it or to defy God’s Word by believing Satan’s subtle contradictions instead of God. Even good intentioned Christians do this.
So, always test everything against God’s Word, everything.
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
re: Mary at May 31, 2009 6:17 PM
The diff between Palin, Limbaugh and Dr. Tiller is that Palin and Limbaugh are alive. Words do matter. Thoughts do count. Why else do police look for a motive for a crime? This means that each person, and especially now those in the anti-choice movement, has to consider their words and their actions and the effect that these have on moving dialogue forward or inciting\inspiring violence.
It’s an opprotune time for a pause for thought about words and actions and their effect on situations and other people.
YLT:
The pro-life position is quite mainstream, making up a significant percentage of the country. Are you asserting that the actions of one person warrant nearly half the country to reflect over their word choices to see if they may have inspired violence? Seriously?
If I have something in common with a criminal, such as race, political preference, religion, etc, you see that as an indication to take some sort of guilt-induced self inventory? I am not in any way responsible for the illegal acts of a stranger, regardless of what we may have in common.
Sorry for the mess-up. Now, to continue my thought — most people in the Pro-Life movement can carry on a civil conversation regarding their beliefs. It is those on the fringe who are the exception. There are those in the Pro-Abortion movement who are just as guilty of hate speech.
Back for a moment. Had not planned on it, but I just heard from another acquaintance about the murder and decided to.
I wont debate, but, I will answer questions.
1) I have a degree in biology and did rather well in embryology, thank you.
2) Angel, your asking why so many other denominations no longer see abortion as sinful is worth considering Angel…but, perhaps you should look long and hard into that yourself. I did, and changed my mind (former pro lifer here, which is why I know most pro lifers are not nuts/violent/insane by the way.)
3) Yes Mary, I am actually counting on hate crime laws for that. They have worked effectively in nations where they have been implimented. As I said to you and Angel, I am interesed in results, not debate. With the actions of this madman today, I think the chances of getting such laws just increased markedly.
4) His man, I have taught several Bible studies. My denomination is solidly pro choice, as is the LATE Dr. Tillers
YLT, well said.
This means that each person, and especially now those in the anti-choice movement, has to consider their words and their actions and the effect that these have on moving dialogue forward or inciting\inspiring violence.
It’s an opprotune time for a pause for thought about words and actions and their effect on situations and other people.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at May 31, 2009 8:26 PM
——————————–
This means that each person, and especially now those in the anti-life movement, has to consider their words and their actions and the effect that these have on moving dialog forward or inciting\inspiring violence against unborn children.
It’s an opportune time for a pause for thought about words and actions and their effect on situations and other people, especially unborn children.
Posted By HisMan
“4) His man, I have taught several Bible studies. My denomination is solidly pro choice, as is the LATE Dr. Tillers
YLT, well said.
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 8:46 PM:
———————————
OK Kelly, give me a biblically jusitifed reason for abortion then. Your refusal to reply will be assumed that you simply can’t because none exists.
Palin is alive, but she received numerous death threats while running for VP!
re: Janette at May 31, 2009 8:41 PM
You may think the anti-choice movement is mainstream, but folks like Operation Rescue, Terry Nichols, Eric Rudolph and the Army of God are not exactly people you bring home to mom and dad. This is the face of the movement. Oh and Pavone, but he’s mostly steam and bluster.
Just as the Seattle riots were framed not by the arguements aginst muti-national organziations, but rather by the actions of anarchist groups that overshadowed the protests, so too will the actions of the violent overshadow the peaceful until the peaceful have proven themselves to be trustworthy and not merely a cover for the violent tendencies of Nichols, Rudolph,the A.O.G. and the folks who ran the “Nuremburg Files” website.
“Devo: when discussing abortion we look to science to provide basic facts.
Based on science we can determine when life begins. Every basic college biology textbook and every basic embryology and medical textbook is in agreement on this. The Catholic church does not write science textbooks, FYI.”
Do basic scientific facts constitute the basis for “objective knowable [moral] truth”? The moral conflict here centers around the circumstances surrounding the taking of life in this particular context.
“This is a philosophical and ethical question. Therefore we must turn to philosophy and ethics to see what our great thinkers have reasoned out. There are many great thinkers but the best are those of the Catholic church, which has always been a leader in this area.”
But these great thinkers only offer interpretations of moral concepts, they don’t determine what “objective moral truth” actually is. This is what I was getting at with my post: the Catholic Church is unequivocally opposed to abortion; certain other [Christian] churches such as the Anglican Church allow it. What makes your church inherently right and the Anglican Church inherently wrong on this issue?
“We also use faith as a guide – all christian denominations as well as the Catholic church follow the same 10 commandments – one of which I believe is Thou shalt not kill.”
It’s interesting to me how the commandment “thou shalt not kill” is interpreted by people who supposedly hold themselves to the Ten Commandments. You take a simple phrase like “thou shalt not kill”, which has no qualifiers whatsoever and can only be read as a blanket prohibition on all killing, and add one caveat after another, changing the meaning of these four explicit words until it is to your liking. First off, it doesn’t apply to non-human life, despite the fact that plants and animals are alive also. Then killing human life just happens to be acceptable in certain circumstances, such as self-defense, or in war, or as capital punishment for certain crimes that are deemed especially heinous, and suddenly the commandment “thou shalt not kill” becomes “thou shalt not kill human beings, except for self-defense, or punishment for certain crimes, or…”. So really, this seemingly absolute commandment actually has a whole lot of flexibility to it and is open to plenty of subjective interpretations, none of which are in any more agreement with the literal meaning of the phrase “thou shalt not kill” than the others are.
re: heather at May 31, 2009 8:52 PM
A Google search of the terms “palin”” and “death threats” turns up nothing about threats against palin but link after link to the threats against obama made by her followers and screamed out during her rallies.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/sarahpalin/3405336/Sarah-Palin-blamed-by-the-US-Secret-Service-for-death-threats-against-Barack-Obama.html
As I said Hisman, feel free to check the websites and official statements of several denominations, such as the Presbyterians, for the answer to your question. I hope you find it helpful.
Kelly:
The church you attend may think abortion is not a sin, but to try to paint the picture that this is the case in all major Protestant denominations is very simply a gross lie. So Kelly, you are either a liar, or, one who has been duped into believing a lie, or you are in rebellion against a holy and loving God.
Know this, I am not a Catholic but I wholeheartedly support the Catholic position on this because they are exactly in line with God’s Word here.
I have a huge number of Lutheran relatives. Not one, not a single one, would agree with you that abortion is not a sin.
The fact is, in those churches where abortion and homosexuality are accepted are in fact dying churches. What else would you expect when they embrace the doctrine of death.
Here’s just a “few” quotes from a very quick search to debunk your assertions:
“Induced abortion, the act of intentionally terminating a developing life in the womb, is one of the issues about which members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America have serious differences. These differences are also found within society.”
“Columbus, OH — The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) assembly has reaffirmed support for abortion if the baby is too young to survive outside the womb.
After that, it said, abortion is acceptable only to save a woman’s life, avoid fetal suffering or in cases of rape or incest.
Commissioners approved the statement 394-112-4 after voting down a minority report.
At a meeting in Columbus, the assembly approved a measure that also says the mother must receive counseling from pastors and doctors.
Supporters called the vote a reasonable compromise in line with the church’s pro-abortion stand. But Terry Schlossberg, of Presbyterians Pro-Life, oppose the pro-abortion proposal: “This allows for so many exceptions; there’s no
way for the church to counsel that any late-term abortion would be objectionable.”
The Presbyterian Church body also disapproved a resolution from a local church group urging the national body not to pay for abortions in the pension plans of church officials. The national body said local churches already have an exemption clause that allows churches to opt out of having their national dues pay for abortions for national church officials.”
“What is our position on Abortion? The United Anglican Church believes that life belongs to God from the moment of conception and that any decision to terminate life is a grave moral issue. Therefore, we oppose the ease with which abortion is allowed, and teach the sanctity of life.”
“In keeping with Anglican tradition and theology, the Episcopal Church considers itself a via media, or middle way, between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.[7]
“The Episcopal Church was active in the Social Gospel movement of the late nineteenth century and since the 1960s and 1970s has played a leading role in the progressive movement and on related political issues. For example, in its resolutions on state issues the Episcopal Church has opposed the death penalty, and supported the civil rights movement and affirmative action. Some of its leaders and priests marched with civil rights demonstrators. The church calls for the full civil equality of gay men and lesbians. Most dioceses ordain openly gay men and women; in some, same-sex unions are celebrated with services of blessing, but “no diocese currently permits same-sex marriage…even in those states and municipalities which permit it.”[8] On the question of abortion, the church has adopted a nuanced position. About all these issues, individual members and clergy can and do frequently disagree with the stated position of the church.”
So if you want to make my proclaiming of God’s word hate speech, go ahead, because you’ll have to kill me to make me shut up. And I am sure that would suit your so-called Churchianity fine.
But the first death isn’t the one I’m concerned about, it’s the second death that I’d be concerned about if I were you.
YLT:
C’mon, aren’t you smarter than that? I am sure the left-leaning Google has eliminated all such search terms from their vast left-leaning, Liberal, pro-abortion, pro-everything-Liberal, pro-Obama library.
1) I have a degree in biology and did rather well in embryology, thank you.
apparently NOT well enough.
2. Angel, your asking why so many other denominations no longer see abortion as sinful is worth considering Angel…but, perhaps you should look long and hard into that yourself. I did, and changed my mind (former pro lifer here, which is why I know most pro lifers are not nuts/violent/insane by the way.)
I have already done the research K. I wonder what EXACTLY turned you against babies? Are you post-abortive?
3) Yes Mary, I am actually counting on hate crime laws for that. They have worked effectively in nations where they have been implimented. As I said to you and Angel, I am interesed in results, not debate. With the actions of this madman today, I think the chances of getting such laws just increased markedly.
Prolife beliefs are not HATE beliefs. And hate laws have NOT worked effectively in countries where they have been implemented since they infringe on the right to free speech and the right to practice religion. I believe the US consitution protects those rights.
4) His man, I have taught several Bible studies. My denomination is solidly pro choice, as is the LATE Dr. Tillers
I wonder what “bible” you are using Kelly because the Bible doesn’t condone abortion or birth control for that matter.
It has always been considered a great sin to kill a child in the womb.
YLT: Eric Nichols and the Army of God are most definitely not the face of the prolife movement. The face of the prolife movement are the young people who showed up at the March for Life in Washington. The face of the prolife movement are the men and women who are marrying and having lots of children. The face of the movement are those who are committed to helping women with difficult pregnancies. You’ll have to do better than that.
oh and BTW, YLT, you know nothing about google. You think they honestly produce uncensored results? Think again. :)
Devo:
I think it’s: “Thou shalt not murder”.
Pop a gord.
Kelly:
FYI I attend an Assembly of God:
Can’t get more Protestant that that:
Here it is:
“Abortion
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church’s Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.
—————————
Why does the Assemblies of God oppose abortion?
The Assemblies of God is unashamedly pro-life. Even though a United States Supreme Court decision legalized abortion in 1973, abortion is still immoral and sinful. This stand is founded on the biblical truth that all human life is created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). From that truth issues the long-standing Christian view that aborting the life of a developing child is evil.
Those who defend abortion claim that an unborn child in the early stages of development is merely fetal tissue, not a person. But neither science nor medicine can declare an arbitrary time during pregnancy when human life begins. The Bible indicates that human life begins at conception (Job 31:15, Psalm 139:13-16). Because of the sacredness of human life, the matter is settled by theological statement of Scripture, not by a medical determination of viability outside the mother’s womb.
There is a Christian alternative to abortion. Instead of terminating the life of the unborn child, the newborn can be placed for adoption by loving Christians. Adoption is a concept authored by God, for all Christian believers have been adopted into the family of God. By choosing to give birth to her baby rather than having an abortion, the birth mother spares the life of a child created in the image of God.
CONCERNS:
Some professing Christians use unchristian methods to oppose abortion. But we must never forget the priority God places on His spiritual and material creation. The soul and where it will spend eternity is of primary importance. Believers must recognize God also loves those who are proabortion, so we must show compassion also. Yet, at the same time, we must try to halt the horrendous murder of innocents in our country.
Just stopping abortions is not enough. The church must show compassion and support toward those who carry their child to birth but do not have the needed resources or an awareness of adoption options.
Because of the advances in medical science, very few mothers today die in pregnancy or childbirth. Yet in some infrequent cases saving the life of the child or of the mother may mean the death of the other. If after prayer for God’s intervention, the problem is not resolved, consultation with attending pro-life physicians will be helpful in arriving at the proper conclusion.”
re: angel at May 31, 2009 9:20 PM
Actually yes, the AOG and Nichols are your face. They are your loudest voices, your most shrill of screams and they carry the biggest megaphone of all – violence. Until the anti-choice movement can curtail its violent impulses it will be a fringe movement, more condescended to than taken seriously.
Pavone can say what he wants, but he isn’t a man of measured words. The anti-choice movement clearly has the maturity of teenagers being given the car for the first time – they get giddy, then stupid, then ultimatly dangerous. .
re: HisMan at May 31, 2009 9:27 PM
the Assemblies of God are Pentacostal not stricly protestant. Examine the diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_churches
In light of the beliefs of pentacostals and their history they cannot be truly considered protestant from either a historical or theological perspective.
no YLT: army of god does not represent me nor my friends nor anyone I have ever worked with in the prolife movement. Sorry.
get back on your meds, please.
YLT,
You exaggerate. Do you know any pro-lifers in your “real life”? If not, you really should meet a few. We’re not all loud, violent extremists.
YLT:
Oh, I see. You get to define who is the face of the pro-life movement, regardless of what actual pro-life individuals have to say about it. So you pick the worst people possible and assert that these people represent us, whether we support them or not. Do you expect anyone to take this argument seriously? Do I get to decide the face of your political preferences?
The PRO LIFE movement will always have the TRUTH on our side: the truth that abortion does nothing but take the life of an innocent child; it not only kills a child but harms a woman for life, whether its physically, mentally or spiritually.
“In light of the beliefs of pentacostals and their history they cannot be truly considered protestant from either a historical or theological perspective.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at May 31, 2009 9:40 PM”
—————————–
OK, so I’m a Catholic Assembly of God dude”
We have a red-phone to the Vatican too.
Whatever……………………..
YLT 8:26PM
I agree, we should think of the effects of thoughts and words so you would agree then that the left should also curb their hate speech, including some people on this blog, against Palin and Limbaugh.
If you agree that hate speech is such a cause of concern then I know you’ll be anxious to see hate speech against Palin and Limbaugh drastically reduced.
Kelly 8:26PM
Then I am correct when I say you would prefer the stifling of free speech to cover up for your inability to intelligently debate.
Why are you so afraid of debate Kelly. Certainly a woman of intelligence and conviction such as yourself would welcome it!
YLT:
More proof that you know a lot about nothing. Hey, I understand that Kelloggs is awarding Doctoral degrees encoded on their Cheerios boxes; go here to get secret information:
http://www.IllBelieveAnything.Info/CheeriosSecretCodesMakeMeSmartNow.html
Oh, while your at it, continue reading here as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
“Pentecostalism is an umbrella term that includes a wide range of different theological and organizational perspectives. As a result, there is no single central organization or church that directs the movement. Most Pentecostals consider themselves to be part of broader Christian groups; for example, most Pentecostals identify as Protestants. Many embrace the term Evangelical, while others prefer Restorationist. Pentecostalism is theologically and historically close to the Charismatic Movement, as it significantly influenced that movement; some Pentecostals use the two terms interchangeably. Furthermore, Pentecostals are diverse theologically with some groups being Trinitarian and others Nontrinitarian.”
You know YLT, I mean you don’t know YLT……using video games and the internet excessively can stifle one’s abilty to think. However, I bet you can find a Planned Parenthood clinic somewhere in your neighborhood that can help with that.
Man are you easy.
……and fun too!
actually Liz, I have a good friend who is a Presbyterian ordained elder. She had an abortion two decades ago, and fells it was the best choice. She was neither damaged physically (she is in fine health, save exhaustion a lot from looking after a now very large family, some of whom are ill) mentally (she is a counselor working primarly with battered women, and has a very happy life) and spiritually (she is a woman of great faith, and as I said, ordained at that)
Appearantly Angel, I am using the Bible used by most of the protestant churches in the United States (Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Episcopal, etc.) since each of these is a church that either considers abortion not a sin, or states that whatever ones beliefs on the matter, abortion should be legal and safe…not back alley and illegal.
Hisman, the Presbyterian Church, long and short of it, does not condemn abortion before the fetus can survive on its own, and WILL pay for an abortion with the church insurance plan for any pastor or church employee at any time during the pregnancy. There is an opt out clause for paying into the fund for these services, but most congregations pay into it. The PCUSA is a pro choice denomination. Same with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and the Episcopalians. Are their anti choice members and movements in these denominations? Yes. Do their positions dominate any of them on the denominational level? No.
Re read your quotes about the denominations carefully…in each case you listed, the take home message is, ‘abortions allowed’. Maybe with some caviots here and there, but, thats the answer
Not that it really matters, but, just historically speaking, the AOG is protestant, but a very young denomination. I think the Lutherans, Southern Baptists (conservative) and Presbyterians (liberal or conservative) would all loudly and proudly claim to be less Roman Catholic, but thats hardly a thing to discuss at length here. I could print out the Presbyterian (PCUSA) Lutheran or other equivalent statement here Hisman, but, it’s online if you care to look.
To all: Here is my story. In 1998 my husband and I found out we were pregnant. This a was both exciting yet it made us nervous. I had lost a baby boy in 1997 at four months. He was delivered and we were able to baptise him and say goodbye to him. We were nervous about the 1998 pregnancy. Everything was fine. I spotted a bit around 3 months and everything was fine. I went for my 5 month untrasound and the nurse looked concerned and told us to go to a ultrasound specialist for further review. We were given the horrible news that our soon to be baby boy had a severe genetic brain deformity and would not live to the end of the pregnancy or would most likley die during labor or shortley after delivery. After talking with a genetic specilist it was determined that we had to make a terrible decision to terminate or to go forward and carry a child to term that we would grief at birth. We found Dr Tiller and was treated with the best care and support that we could have ever imagined. We were able to hold our son, name him and say good bye to him. I would have never been able to carry him to term and watch him die or know that he would die during child birth. We were able to prepare our minds for what was to come and not dwell on the what if. When we knew in our hearts what was to come. We are now blessed with two healthy boys ages 3 and 5. God gave our boys back to us end the end and we imbrace everyday for that. We were not the only couple in Dr. Tillers that day. There were other young couples also facing a horrible decision. Think before you say something. You need to be in there shoes first.
Just an interesting note,
Decades before the Civil War the issue of slavery was dividing the country. Before it was a political issue it was a religious one.
Some denominations were pro-slavery, or should we say “pro-choice” on slavery, while others were abolititionist.
Certain denominations were split in two on the morality of the issue, including Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists. Fiery sermons for and against slavery were delivered.
History repeats itself.
“Re read your quotes about the denominations carefully…in each case you listed, the take home message is, ‘abortions allowed’. Maybe with some caviots here and there, but, thats the answer”……Kelly
No Kelly, I’m not gonna fall for that one because you said this: “I stand by all I have written, from the stances of many denominations that abortion is not a sin………
Posted by: Kelly at May 31, 2009 5:57 PM”, which is a lie. period.
And again Kelly, this…..”actually Liz, I have a good friend who is a Presbyterian ordained elder. She…….”
Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
How can a she be the husband of one wife?
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Kelly, do you know what heretic, or apostate or false doctrine mean?
Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Kelly, you are not listening to God’w Word hence you are not listening to God. I suggest you find God on your own by searching the scripture “being a workmen that need not be ashamed.”
Mary:
You bring up an interesting fact about the relationship to the Civil War and slavery:
Hav you ever seen this video about the “Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood”?
Here ya go: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884
Cnelson,
So you found more comfort in watching the baby die and holding him preterm than you would have found at full term?
Wouldn’t it have been more comforting to have the love and support of your family with you?
HisMan,
Thank you for the video. Didn’t an American president say he feared for this country over the issue of slavery when he realizes there is a just God in heaven.
I hope to make the point too that churches have often been divided on important moral issues so church division over abortion is hardly anything new. Just another era and issue.
I did not watch him die. He had passed before we were able to hlod him. We knew when he passed and we supported each other. I had already had to support from other family members when we delivered our son in 1997. I did not want to put them through the same grief. It was sad enough to have told them that there was something wrong with the baby and he would not live.
Why would I go through a full term pregnancy and deal with people asking when I was due or is it a boy or girl or people telling me stories of their pregnancies and labor. After the horrible ordeal was over I could hardly look at other women with newborns. It was very emotional for me and my husband.
Cnelson:
We were told the same thing about our now 13 year old.
We prayed, the church prayed, our friends prayed. Even our pastor at the time said, “I’d have the abortion” (he is no longer my pastor). We refused to kill our baby.
God came through. He is onw a star football player and straight A student and wants to someday be a Pastor.
Tiller should have counseled you to keep the baby and trust God for a miracle, but, there’s no money in that is there? However, there’s no faith either.
Abortion is against everything that requires faith for success.
I know this sounds harsh but remember, people in your situation may come to this site and read what you wrote and have the abortion instead of trusting God for a miracle. I suggest they at least consider the alternative.
I will give you this. You were led away from a godly solution by a man who had an interest in terminating your baby.
I know this too. God forgives our mistakes. However, we should learn from them and not use them as proof texts when they are in contempt of God’s Word.
I am glad that everything worked out well for you.
Cnelson,
Tragically you lost your first child, who you delivered, held, and baptized. My heart goes out to you for your loss.
Do you think your family may have wanted to be with you, hold your newborn son, and give their love and support? It seems you and your husband were so alone when you may have had a loving family so willing to support you had you gone to term. Perhaps in the end this would have given you greater comfort in your loss.
It saddens me for all of you to think this may have been the situation.
You said after the ordeal you couldn’t look at women with newborns. Obviously your ordeal did not greatly lessen your anguish, which must have been terrible.
We saw the ultrasound and spoke to specialists. We knew that he would die. Believe me I wish that god would have reversed his outcome. His brain was not develeped and filling with fluid very quickly. His head was bigger than his body. We would not have done this if were not 100% sure. I believe satan was playing his part in this and god helped us in making the decision to give him back to him. I don’t believe that abortions should be performed on healthy babies. I believe this is wrong. But, women should have the choice when there is something wrong, the mother is in danger, insest, rape etc. If abortion is illigalized then all other consideration would be abolished.
Cnelson
Satan was playing a part in this?? I respect your beliefs I’m just a little surprised.
Anyway, abortion has always been legal to protect the life of the mother and many states made exceptions for rape, incest, and fetal defect. Roe v Wade was not necessary for these purposes.
Why is it a surprise. He is an evil being. Why wouldn’t he put a person on earth through a bit of greif from time to time. Why not mess up God’s way of making new life?
I think that if it were to become illigalized that all of that will slip through the cracks and women would not have any right to choose.
Cnelson:
Like I said, God can work miracles and forgive our mistakes. He is also with us always and I am sure your baby is as happy as a soul can be right now.
However, to use this type of rare situation to justify abortion, which you’re not doing but that most pro-deathers do, so that since 1973, 50 million babies can be aborted is totally unacceptable.
Please try to understand this.
Tiller was no hero in this as you seem to portray him. He simply knew how to terminate a baby in this situation for a fee, I assume. How else would you expect him to act?
So, what is past is past. Please glory in the fact that God knows what He is doing. Someday you will see your baby and you will realize how loving and merciful God really is. All our tears will be wiped away.
Peace to you.
I don’t see him as a hero. I see him as a person being there for couples that choose to not bring a child into the world with a partial way of living or no living at all. We held our baby in private and were able to see his genetic disorder and noticed another thing wrong as well that the ultrasound did not pick up. There were other couples there that had babies with deformities that I believe the couples should have thought through before going to Dr. Tillers office.
Kelly:
Here’s a basic Bible lesson that you won’t find in your canned, denomination’s Sunday School lie packages:
“Genesis 9:5-16:
And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”
8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 “I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. 16 Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth.””
God demands blood for blood, He then ties this to a command to be fruitful and multiply, and then by virtue of the appearance of a rainbow as a sign of His covenant, which appear in the sky up to this time, indicates that this warning and promise applies to us even TODAY.
Abortion is murder and the shedding of innocent blood for which God will demand the shedding of blood. Abortion is in direct disobedience to His command to be fruitful and multiply.
We should all be praying fervently that God shows mercy for murdering 50,000,000 innocent children over the last 36 years, especially those of us who claim His name.
Anonymous:
I just want to clear up a few things so that someoene who half reads your post doesn’t run with it and turn it into a heresey.
In an abortion a child has absolutely no say in the matter,
In the death of Jesus, He gave His life as a choice and in love. The Father did not force this on His Son, otherwise it would not have been in love.
Also He was tempted by Satan and could have disobeyed:
John 10:17-18 (New International Version)
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
So very well said, HisMan @1:18AM!
CNelson, as a pediatric RN, my heart goes out to you. Unfortunately, there are very few “answers” in such a situation. I do know that babies with anencephaly are born to pro-life mothers on a regular basis, who carry to term, or as long as their body will naturally carry the baby, and then have the exact same ability to hold their child. I am not sure who told you that if your child was carried to term you would be denied that option, but it is simply not true. We deal with fetal demises on a regular basis and take great care to provide a wide variety of services to the grieving families. In addition to holding your child, you would have had the opportunity for photographs to be taken. We would have made hand and footprints. If possible, we would have made a casting of either hands, feet, or both. We would have created a memory book for you. We would have assisted you in your very real grief for your very real child, rather than encouraging you to hide that pain away from family and friends. And we would have provided counseling both at the time by chaplains and counselors on staff and then assisted you in finding additional help through counseling and grief support groups to assist you during the time after the death of your child. These are services provided by just about any hospital in the country.
I feel that your inability to even look at women with newborns stems from the lack of closure provided by the “services” rendered by the late Dr. Tiller. Rather than assist you in processing your grief, he assisted you in hiding and submerging your feelings. I have not heard such a statement from any of the families that I have worked with. I hope that you find peace.
I am very sorry for your loss. I am also sorry that rather than trust the medical profession that is already set up to deal with such issues, you felt the need to hide away your situation with Dr. Tiller and thus be denied these important resources for healing.
As for those arguing that the babies he killed were fetuses, not persons, I worked my shift last night in the NICU. The babies I worked with had been born at 22 and 24 weeks… they were very much people… working hard to hold their own… they experience pain, they have emotions, they are complete little people. With our assistance they will grow up healthy and strong. Our NICU is lined with pictures of healthy, happy toddlers and grade schoolers who were originally premature, often extremely premature. One recent picture was a former 24 week preemie… now 4 years old she is just darling and the joy of her family.
To anyone who would argue that these aren’t children… come work a night with me. The truth is clear to see.
Elisabeth,
Although I am already prolife I would love to come work a night with you!! To watch so many professionals committed to saving the lives of tiny, precious human beings must be something to see!! Thank you so much for all that you do for these tiny ones. God bless you!!
Kelly,
Do you plan to visit the website of “freemen”,(if they even have one) the organization Roeder belonged to and spew your anger at them?
What’s your issue with PL people? Name a legitimate PL spokesperson or leader who has condoned this shooting. Tell us the PL organizations Roeder belong to.
Elizabeth, I worked as a tech in a NICU, way more than one night I can promise you, thank you very much. We disagree, and I am thankful that CNelson was able to attain the medical services she and her doctors, not me, not you, not your priest or pastor, saw as necessary.
This is NOT a debate. It takes TWO to debate. As a pro choicer and defender of womens rights, in real world environments, such as two I have encountered today I work to just silence the opposition. I have no interest in hearing it or allowing others to do so. Trust me, most people get quiet quickly when confronted. And no, I did not start either conversation if your wondering.
And before you ask, no, I DON’T respect or agree to a discusion of the rights of anti choice people to speech that could lead to women losing reproductive rights. I want enforcement via hate crimes laws, social outcasting (screaming down speakers), etc. In other words, by all peaceful, and I stress peaceful, legal means to silence the anti choice voices. And before you mention ‘free speech’, I want hate crime laws such as the ones being worked on in congress for GLBT protections to also make it difficult if not impossible to legally strive to take away a womans rights to choose.
As I said earlier, I am not here to bebate.
I am here to inform.
Hisman, the misogony (hatred and disdain for women) I would EXPECT on this site you espressed in your shock that a woman can indeed be an elder only shows your ingnorance. No one can be that literalist or unaware that the vast majority of denominations have ordained women. (and any woman who belongs to one that does not is a good example of self hatred self directed) All the more reason not to give a word you say weight. I am ordained MYSELF, and by the way, I am a man, not a woman (not that I am offended by being mistaken for a woman, with the name Kelly it happens from time to time, and there is not shame in being a woman….they can be elders and everything!). And, try as you like, its not a lie about many denominations being pro choice, and not considering abortions sinful. The Presbyterians, United Chruch of Christ, and many other denominations allow for abortions, pay for abortions for their female staff and pastors (with opt out clauses for those who do think it a sin and don’t want to pay for them via the health plan…a rule I hope to see changed at future General Assemblies of the denomination, but the clauses do exist now). Facts are facts. If the churches were not pro choice, WHY are their anti choice minority groups within them like the ones you quoted? If the denominations had anti choice positions and deigned abortion sinful, WHY would such groups be deemed necessary by anti choice proponants in said denominations? Think about it.
Mary, your question is illrelevant.
An afternote, just to be PERFECTLY plain and clear. While I think it was quite obvious and clearly written, I reiterate the absolute emphasis on everyone rights to safety and secutity (everyone has already been born by the way…please, don’t bother going there). I don’t agree with anti-choicers right to say what they think, but I absolutely agree with anti choice, pro choice and no choice persons right to be safe and secure and free from fear of bodily harm, and I know that (and for this I will always give every prolifer I know full credit) the anti choice commuity is made up overwhelmingly of people who abhor violence.
Those who say that many/most anti choicers are violent or stupid people are being unjust, and in truth, dim witted if they believe that to be true, and I frequently find myself correcting pro choice persons who say/imply as much. Impinging the character of anti choice persons serves no purpose after all. Credit to your side where it is due.
An afternote, just to be PERFECTLY plain and clear. While I think it was quite obvious and clearly written, I reiterate the absolute emphasis on everyone rights to safety and secutity (everyone has already been born by the way…please, don’t bother going there). I don’t agree with anti-choicers right to say what they think, but I absolutely agree with anti choice, pro choice and no choice persons right to be safe and secure and free from fear of bodily harm, and I know that (and for this I will always give every prolifer I know full credit) the anti choice commuity is made up overwhelmingly of people who abhor violence.
Those who say that many/most anti choicers are violent or stupid people are being unjust, and in truth, dim witted if they believe that to be true, and I frequently find myself correcting pro choice persons who say/imply as much. Impinging the character of anti choice persons serves no purpose after all. Credit to your side where it is due.
Kelly,
Are you avoiding answering my questions for some reason? Seriously, I would think you would have only outrage at this militia and others like it who attract and spawn characters like Roeder and encourage their extremism and defiance of the law.
Honey, you’re barking up the wrong tree coming after PL people.
Come on, let’s see what you’re really made of. Go to these militia websites, preferably freemen, and really give them what for.
Kelly 4:12PM
Do you agree with the militia’s right to say what they want? Plan to get any “hate speech laws” shutting this bunch up?
Kelly,
Again, please name the PL organizations Roeder was part of. Also, please name the legitimate PL spokespersons and leaders who have condoned this murder.
My dear, your ranting and raving against “violent” PL people and promoting the stifling of free speech is making you look very foolish.
Any plans yet to go after the militias?
My dear Mary, I said most anti choice people were NOT violent…that was plain and repeatedly stated, thank you very much. You seem to want to imply I said such a thing, and I have been clear; I used to be ‘pro life’ and know that the vast majority of anti choice persons are not violent of unstable, and saying that they are is unfair to them.
Mary, was it foolish to discuss the stiffleing of free speech via hate crime laws at the state, and very soon national level…as well as in other nations where they have had the desired effect? I and others who agree with me, got what we wanted, so I would hardly call it foolish to attain ones stated goal.
The laws are currently working at the state level, soon on the national, and in other nations are on the books now, and the ‘debate’ has largely been silenced on that issue by such laws. Certainly it has made opponants very careful in what they say…and, when thats the case, it is usually easier to just avoid the topic at all. This can be seen in pulpits where such topics are avoided like the plague now. Call it silly if you want. I call it effective silencing of opposing opinion.
As it happens, militias should indeed be held under the same hate crime laws. And the Klan. Society does not need to hear what they have to say, and they should not be allowed to say it. May I take it you agree, my dear? And trust me, I have locked horns more than once with such types as you make mention of. Most of them are unhinged, and not worth bothering to speak with I should add. That said, I see no need for them to have the freedom to spew their beliefs, which are violent. As I have said repeatedly, I do not think there is ever a need for violence, not ever.
It is not relevent if he belonged to any such ‘pro life’ organizations. As it happens, most of the militias have a ‘pro life’ stance, if you care to check, though I am sure you (nor any sane anti choicer), would ever claim them, and no, I don’t class ‘mainstream’ anti choice groups with militias). I never said he belonged to any particular organization, did I? No. I said he was an anti choice zealot who killed a Doctor, and I don’t want any anti choice zealots, be they totally peaceful or otherwise, to discuss a womans right to reproductive health as if it were a thing up for debate. Just as I believe langauge and duscussion of the abridgement of the rights of gay people should not be allowed, for if anyone could listen to it (such as a pastors sermon that was anti gay in tone) and, if that person listening were inclined to violence or otherwise in poor mental health, he or she could be influenced to either violence or intimidation of GLBT persons. Better to just not allow that discussion that could influence such a person at all. In short, I want that ‘free speech’ abridged, which has begun already if you have not noticed, and will continue…which is what hate crime laws do and have done rather successfully elsewhere. Not silly. Effective. We have gotten those laws on the state level, and as soon as it passes the Senate, the national level. Why do you think it can’t happen with anti choice speech?
Note, please forgive a misspelling. I meant to write the word ‘never’, not ‘ever’ in reference to the militias. I know that they are not affiliated or in league with “mainstream” anti choice groups. I have been careful not to say that most anti choice persons would ever agree with such groups. Such is not the case, and I know that. I know a lot a ‘pro life’ people, and not one is violent. Most in fact show great calmness and dignity, and I have gone to lenghts to express my respect for that.
Kelly,
Its no issue to me what you said about most PL people being non violent. I just wonder what you are doing on this blog spewing your anger instead of taking it to the militias.
What organizations and associations were part of Roeder’s life are very important. They tell you everything about the man and his mentality. That is if you really want to see something more than just your narrow focus on “anti-choice”.
Soooo, when do you plan to visit militia blogs and give them a good earful about the violence they promote with the likes of Roeder? Tell them how you hold them accountable for the killing of Tiller. After all, if they hadn’t promoted and supported Roeder’s lawless mentality, this wouldn’t have happened. How about letting them know your support of hate speech laws that will hopefully shut them up?
Roeder an “anti-choice” zealot. My dear do your research. He was fanatical about any number of things and was considered very dangerous, even by his peers. He harassed prosecuters and judges. He was arrested with bomb making components. He was a walking time bomb. If he didn’t kill Tiller he would likely kill someone else. Maybe he has for all we know.
Roeder belonged to no PL groups. Roeder belonged to a violent militia. Take your anger to them. Assuming of course you have the nerve.
Kelly, get over it. This is America and we enjoy freedom of speech. That means people have the same right to express an opinion as you do.
Nothing in the Constitution says you have to like it or listen to it. If you can demand that certain people be silenced, people can just as rightfully demand that you be silenced.
Be very careful what you wish for my dear……
There’s an old saying that when the gods want to punish man, they answer their prayers.
Why is an intelligent and educated woman such as yourself you so afraid of intelligent debate?
Certainly you can back your convictions with facts. Only the insecure and tyrranical want to silence their opposition.
Pro-aborts need to stop calling themselves “pro-choice.” After all, the are only “pro-choice” when the rest of us make choices they approve of. My niece drives a Hummer H2. And she has lost track of the number of drivers of hybrids with pro-choice bumpah stickahs scream at her at flip her the bird for her choice.
Soto is not pro-choice. She is pro-abortion.
If one were to accept her reading of the second amendment not restricting state actions against gun right, then to be consistent, she would have to believe that the Constitution does not restrict any action states take to restrict constitutional rights.
Believing the constitution means what it says is not an extreme position. The constitution provides a means to change it. And it had been, several times. But Soto (and BO), believes that judges can and should change the meaning of words to match their feelings rather than the plane clear meaning of the written law. The Supreme court is always wrong when their decisions are not based in the actual meaning of the written constitution. They were wrong when they invented the “compelling government interest” exception that has resulted in trampling on rights.
Soto does not care what the constitution says. She only care hat she thinks it should say and that is clear from how she has ruled from the bench. That makes her unqualified.
Mark, that’s silly.
Tell you what, though – much of the gov’ts actions – bailing out the big banks, GM, etc., will in the end not be productive.
Should we have bailed out the railroads as they went into decline late in the 1800’s or early in the 1900’s?”
How many radios and TVs are made in tbe US today? Was it the end of the world when that work went overseas? There are always such changes at work, whether they make the news or not, and the bottom line, as in the case of GM, is that there is no way the UAW can compete with people overseas making 50 cents or $1 or $5 per hour.
I disagree with the gov’t action on GM, but it is probably all that’s politically possible at this time. Ah well….
Doug
Posted by: Janette at May 31, 2009 9:52 PM
I dont get to define anything – I’m just making the point that you guys had better clean up your act, and right your ship because people are looking at you now as crazy and based on the statements from some folks here, I more than understand why.
The minimization, and justification, and talk of proportions of abortions to doctors killed (as another form of justification), these all make the anti-choice movement look irresponsable at best and dangerous at worst.
I dont get to define anything – I’m just making the point that you guys had better clean up your act, and right your ship because people are looking at you now as crazy and based on the statements from some folks here, I more than understand why.
The minimization, and justification, and talk of proportions of abortions to doctors killed (as another form of justification), these all make the anti-choice movement look irresponsable at best and dangerous at worst.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 2, 2009 12:01 AM
*********
The act is clean and the ship is fine, thanks. This one man’s actions are his own.
And you’ve been calling us crazy since you started posting here, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. You don’t care how pro-lifers are perceived! This is a sick joke, right?
Nobody is minimizing anything here, YLT. But the media is acting as if this is a common occurrence, when it’s not. YOU are acting as if it’s a common occurrence.
There IS no justification for what this man has done, in my opinion. He walked into a church and gunned down a defenseless man. That cannot be justified. However, you continue to ignore the fact of what Dr. Tiller did for a living. You are minimizing the lives taken at his mill every day. We view those human lives as ones of value. Tiller’s life also had value.
Let’s be honest, you’d use whatever you could to rail against the “anti-choice” movement. You’ve been doing it for a very long time, well before this heinous incident took place. Please don’t pretend that you “care” about us and the movement’s “well being.”
Mary, dear, as I pointed out, via hate crime laws, we have effectively shut up opponants of much of the Gay rights movement, and more is to follow, or have you not been following the development of the hate crimes bill in congress? Most pastors learned to shut up on issues the government decided not to let them discuss from the pulpit merely by threatening their tax exempt status decades ago. Take home message; ‘free speech’ can be limited, and I and others intend to work to see that yours on this issue of womans health issues IS limited.
As I said, its already worked in the examples I gave on the state level, in nations like Canada and Britain, and soon, here.
I am in favor of tyranny in this case, and I do not care about your right to free speech on this issue. That not sinking in yet? You assume we work on the same page of respecting freedom of speech. We don’t.
Once again, just as in the examples of hate crime laws and what they have done, can, and will do, and the effect of quieting conservative pastors with the ever stated threat of loss of tax free status, I am working to take your vaunted right to legally express your opinions on this issue away, or make them so costly that most people will not exercise them. As per the fear of my opinions being silenced? That could happen. That’s why I am working constantly to see that my side comes out on top first.
Think it wont happen in America? My Dear, on some issues, such as the examples I listed in my earlier post, it has already begun. As much as you may hate this, you do not strike me as unintelligent, and somehow I doubt you are so dim as to not see it happening.
That is, after all, the point of hate crime laws; to subtly (or not so much so) teach people what they can’t say anymore. And they have been shown to work. And even on those few upon whom they don’t work on, well, they find themselves far more isolated, and with fewer and fewer willing to take the risk to work with them, thus weakening their cause.
Your comment mocking that Roeder was not just an anti choice zealot but also had other issues is…desperate. HE MARCHED INTO A CHURCH AND SHOT A DOCTOR DEAD BECAUSE THAT DOCTOR PERFORMED ABORTIONS. And because of that, federal mashalls are not assigned to protect several abortion providers and their employees. Mary, dear, I think it is safe history will record him as an anti choice zealot first and foremost, then second and third. The PR nightmare for your cause this man has presented you on a silver platter wont be diffused by “he had other issues to”. If you actually believe that, or that the hate crimes and other laws we are working for wont have the effect of chilling (at the least) speech on the idea of taking away a womans right to abortion, then half of this battle is already won.
Hey YLt,
Why don’t YOU make a visit to the “freemen” or some other militia website and tell them exactly what you think of them and the people like Roeder who they encourage to be lawless and violent.
You, like Kelly and the rest of the PC crowd just can’t seem to comprehend the obvious.
Roeder was a member of a militia, not any PL group. If anyone is responsible for his violence, its them.
Sooo, let’s see some real conviction and courage YLT. Find a militia blog and really give them what for. Oh, a word of warning. These are NOT nice people and personally I would never want to give them my e-mail or IP address, but hey, certainly someone of such courage and conviction as yourself, a person truly outraged by a murder, wouldn’t give it a second thought.
Be sure you tell me what they said in response.
Kelly,
LOL. Just heed my word of caution my dear, the “hate speech laws” and limiting of free speech that you are so enraptured with can come back to bite you in fanny. If you have the “right” to shut people up, people in turn have just as much right to shut you up.
Remember what I said about the gods punishing men by answering their prayers.
I am well aware who Roeder killed. He could just as likely killed a police officer, ATF agent, judge, or lawyer, this guy was also strongly anti-US laws. In fact Kelly, are you absolutely certain he has never done so? Maybe he has killed.
Your big problem my dear is that he had no connections of any kind to any PL group. He was involved with a violent lawless militia. A militia that completely disregards US laws and he violated plenty of them. He was found with enough explosives to kill a person. I wonder if he intended that for some judge or lawyer? Your side is so desperate they have to point out he posted on a couple OR websites and neither post by the way was violent or threatening.
That’s as absurd as arguing that Jill Stanek is responsible for me robbing a bank since I post on her blog.
So Kelly, when do you plan to give these militias what for? Obviously they recruit, support, and reinforce potentially violent deranged people. If they hadn’t reinforced Roeder’s violence and lawlessness, there would have been no killing.
I hope though that you will heed the warning I gave YLT. These folks aren’t as nice as us PL folk here on Jill’s blog. I wouldn’t want them to have my e-mail or IP address but I’m sure that’s no issue to someone like yourself who is so outraged over the murder they helped spawn.
Another point Kelly,
Its rather irrelevant what you or I think of free speech. Its guaranteed in the Constitution. You practice it by coming on this blog and giving your opinion without fear of the police knocking on your door.
Our Founding Fathers had the foresight and wisdom to at least try to protect our freedom of speech from the likes of you.
Again my dear, be very very careful what you wish for…
This is good
It is nice to see an opponant who ignores what she does not like to hear. It is good to see someone who, presented with a fact like the effect of hate crimes laws and the effect they have and will have, just say “The constitution says” as if that means anything. We are abridging the rights to speech already, ‘dear’. Those who can’t seem to bring themselves to admit this, are in poor position to prevent it being extended, so I take a certain comfort in your response. You CANNOT Be that naive (but I hope you are)
And I never said we had the ‘right’ to work to silence the opposition, I said we are working to do so. Huge difference. And, I have given examples ranging from hate crime legislation that silences some outright, and makes others self censor, to the use of the tax code to successfully do this.
The constitution says what those in power INTERPRET it to say,…if such was not the case, your ‘right to life’ might be the abortion law of the land, don’t you think?
Lastly, the PR from this is already devestating to your side. If you are naive enought to say “But, but, but, he didn’t belong to any pro life (sic) organizations, so you can’t tar us with this brush” and think that will make any difference, my side is in better shape than I had dared hope.
The guy could also have privately invented a cold fusion reactor and robbed ten banks, BUT, the evening news is full of stories of his WALKING INTO A CHURCH AND SHOOTING A DOCTOR BECAUSE HE PERFORMED ABORTIONS…or, maybe it was because the Dr. was in on one of those hypothetical murders you mention? “Maybe he has killed?”…if thats the best you can do, my side wins hands down.
Please, we know why he did this, and “well, he had lots of other issues also and could have done other bad things…maybe he did and we just don’t know about them” is the lamest deflection I can imagine.
He DID commit the Murder of a Doctor in a Church, and we all know why.
And its all over the news.
His death is a great tragedy, but, it has woken a lot of people up. Perhaps his family can take some tiny solace in knowing that.
Oh, and Mary, ‘dear’, why do you keep bringing up the militias? Not relevant. He is anti choice zealot who killed an abortion doctor, and the press is already defining him, whether you like it or not. He posted comments on a anti choice website about ‘monitoring’ the church where the murder occured, and his sympathies and motivations are becoming well known. His actions said it all. He is not going to be seen in national opinion as a militia nut, but as an unhinged pro lifer who went against the calls for peaceful work against a womans right to choose that most in the anti choice movement call for.
I came here and read comments about what I consider a great man not being a hero, and decided to write about my feelsings on the death of a great man, and to express my hope and intention to in time make such comments as many have made here, or to work against taking away a womans right to choose hard or impossible to make. I have given real world examples of how this is done, and have already been done with other issues (why do you think conservatives fight hate crimes laws and tax regs so much?) Ignore them if you wish.
I have meetings to get to to raise money for the cause, people to contact and help organize.
I was not interested in debate, but in informing and expressing my anger and disdain. I have done so, and now need to get to work, which I will do so with far more dedication than ever before.
Goodbye Mary, Dear.
Kelly 11:14am
Its interesting and quite unusual to have an opponent who so disregards the Constitution, unless of course it continues to protect her right to free speech. I remind you that laws controlling “hate speech” which is purely subjective and all attempts to silence those who we oppose can have the effect of leaving teeth marks on one’s backside. They can be used against you as well as those you oppose.
The Constitution says what those in power interpret it to say. Ohhh, that can be scary.
Come to think if it, that’s how segregation became the law, those in power “interpreted” the Constituion.
The door swings both ways my dear, be very careful what you wish for…
Kelly, please, tell me the PL organizations this guy belonged to and you win this hands down. A lot of blather from our extremely biased media proves what? A media by the way that has yet to express much outrage over the shooting yesterday of two military recruiters, one fatally.
Why do I bring up militias? Well…maybe because Roeder belonged to one. Why do you have an issue with this? Does it force you to look at facts and other aspects of this situation that you choose to ignore and don’t quite fit your neat little scenario of the crazed PL person and the martyred abortionist?
Roeder posted two non violent comments on OR websites. You have posted here. That “proves” what? Does it “prove” we have influenced you in any way?
BTW, the 2 military recruiters that were shot, one fatally, were shot by a black Muslim man. Now, who do you blame for this, Black Americans, Muslims, or the anti-war movement?
Good bye Kelly dear, just don’t forget what I said about those teethmarks.
Hal:
Most of my professional athlete friends are old has beens.
They didn’t make the money that pros make now.
In fact, many of them were screwed by the NFL.
The point is that professional athletes are way over paid in proportion to their contribution to society.
My old NFL friends would agree.