A pro-abort instructs on how to raise a pro-abort child
Most pro-aborts would be embarrassed to honestly describe abortion to their 6yo as chopping up the baby in mommy’s tummy. They know their child would be horrified and saddened, perhaps to the point of tears.
Children in their innocence recognize abortion as something grotesque. It’s not until we grow up that some of us become calloused and rationalize it.
So it is with Sophia at the Abortion Gang blog, who yesterday described herself caught in somewhat of a quandary in her post, “A non-how-to guide on raising pro-choice children” (underlines mine):
I want him to be confident, to have faith in his own abilities, to be happy and creative. I want him to be successful (however he defines it). I want him to be loved. I want my son to have more opportunities than I had growing up. I want to indulge him, but not spoil him. I want to make sure he respects women. I want him to understand he only has control over his own person, that because he has a penis there is no inherent right to have control over another’s person.
The first problem pro-abort mothers have is raising “confident” children who feel “loved” – who on the other hand know you would have killed them had circumstances been too unfavorable at the time of their conception. That’s a tough sell.
Another problem is explaining to sons that to “respect women” in your opinion means to stand down and let them kill your own little baby, and more responsibly yet, pay for it.
Sophia wrote of her “three simple rules” to raising a pro-abort child. The 1st was to advocate teaching about “the mechanics” of sex beginning at a young age, say 6:
I have begun explaining basic information about sex to my son. Nothing graphic, no pictures and no shaming; just plain language explaining the mechanics, so to speak…. The truth is informing kids about the mechanics of their bodies, how the appropriate ways to use reproductive parts and why, is vital in instilling values that will create an adult that respects a woman’s right to chose and a woman’s autonomy over her body.
I have no clue how sex education is supposed to convert a child to being pro-choice. (I say “convert” because, as I previously wrote, children are naturally pro-life unless they’re little sickos.)
Perhaps along the way a child is supposed to realize that one small consequence to the sexual experience his parents have taught him to seek and enjoy (freely yet responsibly, of course) may be an oopsie baby, but that shouldn’t hinder him or her.
Sophia’s 2nd rule for raising a pro-abort child was to screen and limit what her son watches on t.v., to “be careful about what subliminal messages or blatant sexism or harmful images.” This was interesting:
For instance, I like the movie Beauty and the Beast (Disney), but it was not until I started college that I learned the movie has one messed up message.
Thank goodness for Sophia’s college, which taught her there’s something depraved about sacrificing oneself for another, of finding beauty beyond the depth of one’s skin, and that love softens the hardest of hearts.
But I still didn’t understand how close parental control of the remote translates to creating a pro-abort child. Sophia explained:
So no movies (as much as possible) that depict women as helpless creatures that submit to and are controlled by men. If we watch something that includes this, I have to explain over and over that the way Beast treated Belle is not okay.
Ok, well, I still don’t understand how this translates into germinating abortion support in a child. Actually, hasn’t Sophia heard how common it is for male beasts to exploit women for sex and then coerce them to abort if they get pregnant?
But moving on, Sophia’s 3rd rule came back to the theme of love:
Finally, the most important advice I have been given from another parent to me about parenting, is no matter what, love your child. This goes so far in creating happy, confident and well-adjusted children, and then adults, later in life. I don’t mean to imply that anti-choicers are not happy, simply that happy and confident children will be more receptive to constructive and intellectually stimulating conversations, including talks about why he or she should be pro-choice.
Actually, Sophia, we anti-choicers have a much easier time raising children who know they are loved – unconditionally. We live and love by example. And we’re a tad more consistent with both unspoken and spoken messaging to our children than pro-aborts.
Nor do we have to worry that our kids will be “receptive” to our beliefs on the issue of abortion. Our messaging is received naturally. Yours is not. It’s barbaric, requiring quite a bit of conditioning, I will agree.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Does she have a daughter? Would she raise her daughter to understand that her body can be used like the drive-thru at McDonald’s for little boys looking for happy meals?
At the least she should share these CDC data on condoms with her children:
http://gerardnadal.com/2010/02/09/planned-parenthood-in-new-initiative-targets-10-year-old-children-with-condoms-that-dont-work/
The first problem pro-abort mothers have is raising “confident” children who feel “loved” – who on the other hand know you would have killed them had circumstances been too unfavorable at the time of their conception.
This is one of my favorite anti-choice mental farts. Yes, I’m sure the kid would be more confident knowing that his mother did not want to be pregnant, but was forced to have him.
Of course, antis can’t seem to grasp the concept of an unwanted pregnancy. They seem to think women would be perfect happy having no control over their lives and just pushing out a litter of babies, but we’re stupid and feminists have tricked our little woman brains into having other goals and dreams besides being pregnant.
And although antis seem to think the concept of an “unwanted pregnancy” began after Roe v. Wade, that’s not the case. Read some Irish folk lit and discover how women who were pregnant and miserable about it tried to have good old-fashioned “Irish abortions,” by drinking vinegar, etc. But anti-choicers want us all to live like those freaky Quiverfull people, where the women aren’t allowed to have lives or interests besides breeding, homeschooling, and providing housework and sex to their husbands.
On the other hand, women with real lives–careers to pursue, educations to finish, etc–have an interest in not getting pregnant when they don’t want to be.
‘I want to make sure he respects women. I want him to understand he only has control over his own person, that because he has a penis there is no inherent right to have control over another’s person’.
…”informing kids about the mechanics of their bodies, how the appropriate ways to use reproductive parts and why, is vital in instilling values that will create an adult that respects a woman’s right to chose and a woman’s autonomy over her body.
———————————————————————————————
Does the same principle apply to those humans who were born with a vagina?
I want to make sure SHE respects men. I want HER to understand SHE only has contol over HER own person, that because SHE has vagina there is no inherent right to have control over another’s person.
Do these same principles apply to humans who have undergone gender re-assignment surgery?
I am curious. Just who determines what exactly is the appropriate use of reproductive parts, and how do they determine this?
Is it just me, or is the tone of this missive just a weeee bit sexist?
There is no mention of a man’s autonomy of his own body or his right to choose.
It does NOT seem to me that Sophia is just presenting information to her son and allowing him to reach his own conclusions, but rather she is inculcating and indoctrinating him with her own feminista ideology.
Being around an overbearing and controlling woman like that would be like being forced to submit to chemical castration. The poor fellow is going to grow up believing all men, including him are beasts. GOD help the little boy/man.
Sophia,
Here is novel idea. How about teaching your son to respect his own body, soul and spririt and to respect women the same way he would want to be respected.
Sort of like the golden rule.
But anti-choicers want us all to live like those freaky Quiverfull people, where the women aren’t allowed to have lives or interests besides breeding, homeschooling, and providing housework and sex to their husbands.
Ashley, you have been here long enough to know better than this. If you’re going to erect a straw man, at least put in some effort.
One more thing: should I feel bad that my mom occasionally used birth control? She wanted to have a baby when she got pregnant with me, but at one point she didn’t–when she was in college, when she had a career, when her mom was sick. The particular egg I came from might have very well been thwarted by her pills!
Uh, if you believe that, you’re so self-absorbed that you believe your mom should have never had a life outside of breeding, and had no right to avoid pregnancy, ever. Which is pretty selfish and immature. Not to mention laughable.
Ashley, HELLO…just think a little. What a cold-hearted worldview you have! Unwanted PREGNANCY does NOT equal unwanted CHILD. I have SEEN with MY OWN EYES women who faced unwanted, unplanned pregnancies in DIRE circumstances. But that apathy and feelings of disgust at the pregnancy did NOT spill over when that child was born. These women looked at their babies and loved them. The idea of “pregnancy” can be ambiguous but once these women could look their own children in their faces and know them as people they were willing to make sacrifices for their children.
I have actually heard pro-choice women mutter at their toddlers “Ugh, having a two year old reminds me why abortion is legal!” I was horrified. How is that loving? Yeah, way to go “choice”! You can always comfort yourself that you had the choice to chop your baby up into little pieces.
My son has seen the ultrasound pictures of himself in my womb. He loves to hear my stories about when I found out he was growing in me, and how I felt when he kicked. And hopefully soon I will bring another child into our family and I will definitely include my son so he can see his new brother or sister growing in my womb. And my children will know that unplanned (as my son was) or planned (as future children will most likely be) their lives were respected and protected by mommy and daddy the moment they began.
At what age do you show the graphic photos of what happens to a baby after they are aborted? Might as well show the lad exactly what momma supports.
instilling values that will create an adult that respects…a woman’s autonomy over her body.
This is the language of pro-aborts that objectifies women and leads to their own self-destruction. If you instruct a child to respect “the right of a woman to control her body” you’re training him to believe that a woman is something of an object and selling him short on the dignity of HER PERSON. She is not a BODY.
They have an “I am Dr. Tiller” page on the website where abortion workers tell of the “honor” of working in the industry (killing babies). They are shown holding a sign covering their face which reads ” I am Dr. Tiller”.
Sick.
It still shocks me how deceived and morally blind people can be.
“This website was created as both a memorial to the lifework of Dr. George Tiller and as a living testimony to the courageous lives of abortion providers.
Here you will find stories of individuals who have dedicated their lives to making abortion safe, legal, healthy, and accessible to women and girls. These people may be nurses, counselors, escorts, volunteers at abortion funds, or abortion doctors themselves. You will not see the faces of these providers to protect their safety. What you will see is the story they decide to share – “
Unwanted PREGNANCY does NOT equal unwanted CHILD.
Sure it can. So every single child in this country was wanted? How do you explain all the abused kids in foster care? Casey Anthony admitted she wanted an abortion and never wanted Caylee, but her mom pressured her into having her. (Not that I have any sympathy whatsoever for this child killer.)
And sure, most women will love the baby once it’s there. That doesn’t mean you have to stop using birth control, give up your hopes and goals, and start getting repeatedly knocked up instead. You’ll be happy when it’s born! What a pointless argument.
And just because you’ll love a baby when it’s born doesn’t mean you have any attachment to it whatsoever when it’s an embryo. I’m pretty sure I conceived last month (positive test) and it implanted very briefly, then got flushed out. I was pretty disappointed for a few days, but I’m not sitting around mourning as if my child just died. Uh, should I? Because that sounds completely ridiculous.
Ashley, what is up with you lately? Has something horrific happened in your life to send you over the edge into utter paranoia? You used to at least be rational in your posts. Now you’re just posting ridiculous hysteria and inflammatory insults.
Remember, Ashley…. I’M Quiverfull. You know, the not-homeschooling, work at a hospital with a great career, husband is a SAHD, great social life, tons of outside interests for all of us kind of Quiverfull.
I feel like I’m watching someone have a mental breakdown right in front of me… it saddens me greatly.
…Waiting for someone to say, with a straight face, that I should be in mourning over my blastocyst that would have eventually become a baby, but didn’t. I’d love to hear someone say I should be feeling the exact same way as a parent whose 3-year-old just got struck by a car. Because blastocysts are EXACTLY the same as 3-year-olds, right?
But deep down, you don’t actually believe that they’re equal.
Ashley, “Anti-choicers have secret fantasies of forcing 12-year-old rape victims to give birth to their stepdad’s baby and winding up just thrilled about it.” First, why should a child be killed because his/her father did an evil thing. Second, abortion is used as a means to cover sexual abuse up. Planned Parenthood has been caught several times helping to cover up statutory rape.
Since when does having a baby mean giving up your hopes and dreams? Sure college would be harder, but life is hard. It is extremely insulting to me as a woman for people to assume that because I had a kid I couldn’t go to college. It automatically assumes I’m too weak. You’re a woman, it’s ok, you can’t handle both. Yes, I am a woman. Yes, I can raise a child and have everything else I dream of.
We’re different people, Ashley. I have lost FOUR right after a positive test each time and, yes, I STILL mourn for the babies I lost. I loved them from the moment I saw those tests come up positive each time. It’s a CHILD from conception. I lost my CHILDREN, Ashley. Some of us are actually SAD when we lose a child..no matter HOW early. And you just admitted you were “pretty disappointed for a few days”…why is that, you think, if you had no “attachment” to the little one you lost?
Dr. Nadal
What I heard on the radio was that in the U.K. the government without parental knowledge or consent were distributing contraceptives to children. They also said that Obama had allocated billions to planned parenthood for this same purpose. This can’t be legal right. I wonder if it’s the law that it has to be a matter of public record what monies or allocated to planned parenthood and what the monies are suppose to be used for.
I’m a Christian but I also believe in reincarnation. I don’t speak of it often because I don’t want to offend anyone. When I hear of the battles that are being waged against parental authority and against the role they play as protectors of their children I often wonder if the individuals guilty of this have a clue of the world they are creating not only for themselves but also for their posterity. I’m hoping our President has more values than to contribute to something that would not be good for America’s present and or future generations of children.
Well I’m sorry Pamela, but I’m not. My feelings are just as legitimate as yours.
Honestly, mourning every single “baby” you lose in very early pregnancy sounds like a recipe for driving yourself nuts. It’s estimated that 30-70% of fertilized eggs never implant. Most women will have multiple pregnancies (even dozens) like mine, where it implants very briefly, and never even know it. Treating blastocysts that get flushed out during your period like dead babies sounds emotionally unstable. Is every menstrual cycle traumatic? But I doubt many pro-life women even treat them like that, because deep down, they know it’s definitely not the same as a baby.
Amanda Marcotte put it best.
But at its base, the “What if you were aborted?” question employs a model of reproduction that has no basis in biological reality. Anti-choicers treat the whole process of reproduction as if getting pregnant is a rare and precious event, like finding a giant lump of gold in your backyard, and as if nature was stingy about attempts to create life. If this was true, they might have more of a reason to get offended at attempts to control when you give birth. But the biological fact of the matter is that our reproductive systems are all about waste, all about killing billions in order to have the few that have the best shot…
Many eggs that are fertilized never even implant, and even when pregnancy happens, 15 to 20 percent miscarry. Nature throws a lot at reproduction, with the purpose of only having a few healthy babies as the final outcome. This creates a lot of “what ifs” that never come to fruition, and obsessing over what if too long will drive you mad. On any given day, there are billions of theoretical babies never born for the thousands that are born.
Should you be feeling the exact same way? No, of course not. There are no two parents that feel the same way over the death of their child, regardless of age or cause. And I do not believe a single person here has ever told you that you should.
Bear with me through something that I think will make sense to you when I am done: When I work with new moms one of the big choices they need to make is how to feed their baby. Some moms choose to breastfeed, some choose to formula feed, some have choices limited or even taken away due to medical or situational issues.
As time goes on, these children get older and mothers talk. Oh, are you breastfeeding? becomes a question that some women view as an attack, no matter how innocently the question was intended.
What makes the difference between a formula feeding mom who blows off the question and treats it as just that… a question…. and a formula feeding mom who gets overly defensive and starts making disparaging, rude, inflammatory statements about women who breastfeed, calls them names (like BoobNazis) and overreacts on so many levels? The difference is their own level of security in their choice. Mothers who are truly confident in their decision to formula feed do not need to act in that way to validate themselves.
And here is where we tie it in: on some level, you know that what you did ended the life of your own child. On some level, this causes you pain (whether you recognize this on a conscious, intellectual level or not). On some level, you know it was wrong.
Just as a formula feeding mom who subconsciously feels guilty about not breastfeeding lashes out at mothers who she feels have made the “better” choice, and projects that feeling out onto breastfeeding mothers she encounters, you are lashing out at those who support and stand up for the rights of unborn babies to finish developing and have a chance at life.
I strongly suggest that you get counseling to assist you in dealing with this hurt before it eats you up inside any more than it already has.
And you just admitted you were “pretty disappointed for a few days”…why is that, you think, if you had no “attachment” to the little one you lost?
I don’t know, I was pretty disappointed when I didn’t get the job I wanted a few months ago. That doesn’t mean I feel like someone died.
I was 10 weeks along with my first miscarriage. 9 weeks with my second. Hardly a blastocyst and yes those are my babies.
Ashley,
I am concerned about you as many others are. Please email if you can.
carla@jillstanek.com
Has Amanda Marcotte ever had a miscarriage??
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, Elisabeth, but when I saw my test, I was happier than ever that I made the right decision the first time, because now I have this opportunity. I reflected on how different I felt about two different positive tests–one devastated me, and one made me happy. Neither pregnancy continued (most don’t, when you add up how many eggs don’t implant and how many miscarriages there are). But I have no doubt I’ll have another chance. (I got my reproductive system checked out and everything is 100% fine. Sorry, antis who wish I would be punished with infertility!) I’m not sitting around mourning either one, because they weren’t babies to me.
And what you call “lashing out,” I call “debating.” I’m a columnist. There are lots of things I have strong opinions on. Get me started on anti-vaccinationists, and I’ll probably get angrier than I do on here.
And why am I disallowed from feeling very disappointed because an opportunity didn’t come through, but not like it was a death?
As for kids being naturally pro-life, most kids are also natural socialists. Most kindergarteners will tell you that everyone deserves an equal “slice of the pie” (try it sometime), and that people who have more have to share. Small children aren’t the best people to consult when creating legislation on adult issues.
Is this the same Ashley who a few months ago was posting that she was considering becoming “compassionately pro life?” What pushed you back over the fence?
Where is the male influence (father) in Sophia’s boy’s life? Ideally, the father and his good example is what should teach his son to honor women.
The lack of respect that these feministas have for men is quite disturbing and irrational.
Ashley
August 19th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
As for kids being naturally pro-life, most kids are also natural socialists. Most kindergarteners will tell you that everyone deserves an equal “slice of the pie” (try it sometime), and that people who have more have to share. Small children aren’t the best people to consult when creating legislation on adult issues.
This is totally wrong. First, kids are not socialists because they want everyone to share. They want others to share what is in the general pot. Meaning no kindergartner would expect another to give them the pie they brought for lunch because they dont have a slice, but would expect to be able to use the blocks that are for general use in the classroom. Your reference is wrong.
Whoever said your posts are becoming rants was dead on. You sound like you are throwing a fit. Calm down, relax, and for heavens sake, think before you post.
My dad tried to make me pro-choice when I was little. This backfired badly for him. I was really into embryology when I was 5 (which is an odd preocupation, I know. I basically knew everything except for how the sperm got there). Sometime at the end of 3rd grade, my dad sat me down to talk to me about abortion, in a really positive way. Something like, “Sometimes, if a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be, she can decide to not be pregnant anymore.” Initially, I thought that was a great idea, until I said, “Oh, cool, what happens to the baby?” “It’s not a baby, yet,” he said. “It’s just a fetus.” I corrected him, telling him that fetuses ARE babies, of course. When I finally got him to tell me what happened to the babies, I was horrified. I couldn’t believe that women could do that to their own children. I spent atleast an hour in my room crying after that. Somehow, I don’t think any of that was the reaction my father expected.
Amelia,
Wow. Thanks for sharing your touching story. I assume that you are still pro-life – good for you!
Ashley
August 19th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
…Waiting for someone to say, with a straight face, that I should be in mourning over my blastocyst that would have eventually become a baby, but didn’t. I’d love to hear someone say I should be feeling the exact same way as a parent whose 3-year-old just got struck by a car. Because blastocysts are EXACTLY the same as 3-year-olds, right?
But deep down, you don’t actually believe that they’re equal.
Presuming, for the sake of argument, that I didn’t have equivalent reactions–which I do not concede–this is still a bad argument.
Event one: somewhere in the world, a random stranger who you have never met is murdered.
Event two: your BFF, who you dearly love, is murdered.
These two events are morally equivalent, but your reaction to them is not the same. …I’m going to assume you can work out the point I’m making.
Amelia
Thank you.
…Waiting for someone to say, with a straight face, that I should be in mourning over my blastocyst that would have eventually become a baby, but didn’t. I’d love to hear someone say I should be feeling the exact same way as a parent whose 3-year-old just got struck by a car. Because blastocysts are EXACTLY the same as 3-year-olds, right? But deep down, you don’t actually believe that they’re equal.
Presuming, for the sake of argument, that I didn’t have equivalent reactions–which I do not concede–this is still a bad argument.
Event one: somewhere in the world, a random stranger who you have never met is murdered.
Event two: your BFF, who you dearly love, is murdered.
No, if we’re following pro-life logic, then it’s:
Event one: my child dies
Event two: my child dies.
I love how antis sidestep this question by making it an issue of “knowing the person,” which means you’re not as upset about a zygote (“child”) being flushed out because you haven’t known them as long. So do you love your older children more than your toddlers? Would you be much more upset by the death of the older child? By your reasoning, the answer is yes because you’ve had more time to know them.
No one treats zygotes like people.
Ashley,
An egg is not a human life. Birth control that truly just prevents fertilization (without impacting an embryo that may form) is not abortifacient and doesn’t kill anything. An egg by itself is not a separate human life with it’s own genetic makeup that, barring defects or outside intervention, will continue on an unbroken path to birth. So no, getting your period each month is not a tragedy and preventing fertilization doesn’t end a human life, so that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue here. However, if you were pregnant and miscarry, at whatever stage, you did lose a child in its earliest stages of development. And yes, early miscarriages are common both b/c of defects in the embryo/fetus and/or defects in the mothers system. But that doesn’t mean each one doesn’t result in the loss of a unique human life. And when you abort, you intentionally interrupt the development of that unique human life. You have thwarted a specific child not an egg that could have met with a sperm and become a child. Egg = mother’s genes. Fertilized Egg = Unique human separate from both the mother and the father.
Ashley
August 19th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
No, if we’re following pro-life logic, then it’s:
Event one: my child dies
Event two: my child dies.
I love how antis sidestep this question by making it an issue of “knowing the person,” which means you’re not as upset about a zygote (“child”) being flushed out because you haven’t known them as long. So do you love your older children more than your toddlers? Would you be much more upset by the death of the older child? By your reasoning, the answer is yes because you’ve had more time to know them.
No one treats zygotes like people.
As I said before, this is all presuming the reactions of pro-lifers are not always equal, which is something you can’t know or prove–and that’s still not something I’m sure is true in every case. You are clearly not in a place where you could even understand an equal reaction, though, so I’m sure you can see why we’re not bothering to display one to you.
But with that presumption, for the sake of argument, since you missed the point I was making earlier, you are trying to say that a person’s emotional reaction is related to the morality of something. And anybody who thinks for two seconds will realize that no emotional reaction to anything is directly, inversely, or otherwise proportional to that thing’s moralness. Stop conflating the two. It’s a complete non-argument.
No, but it says a lot about how pro-lifers don’t believe their own BS. If a zygote is your child and a teenager is your child, and most parents love their children equally, why aren’t you treating their deaths equally?
If a woman grieved for a “chemical pregnancy”–which is likely what I had, when you test positive but get your period only a few days late, meaning the pregnancy was very, very brief–and treated it as if her teenager had just died, we’d all agree she needs psychological help. Why, if they’re both her children? Because nobody actually believes zygotes/embryos/whatever are the same as children.
Ashley, I’m very sorry for the loss of your latest child. I understand now why you are acting so aberrantly.
Ashley,
Regarding the loss of a human in its embryonic stage and the loss of a three year old…
Let’s cut through the fallacy of your argument. Suppose (God forbid!) you were to die tonight in your sleep of natural causes. If word got around the web, I would feel badly for you and shake my head at why and how one so young with her whole life ahead of her could have simply passed away. And I would pray for you. I can’t say that I would go into any mourning period, because quite frankly, I don’t really have much of a relationship with you. There is little that has been shared between us.
However, If I were your brother, cousin, or husband, I would be in for a terrible time of grief because so much of our lives would have been caught up together.
Regardless of my relationship to you, how well we know one another and how the extent of that knowledge dictates the magnitude of grief (and we will all be grieved one day to varying degrees by the lives we’ve touched in varying degrees), your intrinsic dignity and moral worth are the same. They are not a function of how well Gerry Nadal knew you.
The same may be said of a parent who loses a child in its sixth week of prenatal development, or a three year old. Of course the grief is more intense over the three year old, because there have been more shared experiences, more knitting together of lives, more sacrifice. But the six-week-old has no less moral worth than the three year old. That’s because an individual’s moral worth is not a function of how much they are valued by others, or known by others.
That said, I pray you live a very long and full life, one where you come to understand these truths for your children and grandchildren.
It says nothing about anything, which you know because now you’re just repeating yourself. Kristen and Elisabeth are right: you’re spiraling. Since there’s apparently nothing more to be said here, I’ll just wish you a good evening.
Child? The pregnancy lasted a week after conception at most. We’re talking a handful of cells. (I know pro-choicers get accused of calling more developed fetuses “balls of cells,” which we don’t, but this truly was.) I was disappointed, but lesson learned? Never get excited about a positive test. Like I said, treating every blastocyst like a baby is a recipe for disaster.
My sister had a funeral after her 22 week pregnancy ended, which would’ve been her only son. He died on my birthday.
Love how Ashley equates feelings as being as important as facts. But in reality, no matter what you FEEL, that an individual human life begins at conception is a verifiable, unquestionable FACT.
Mark,
Good observation. Replacing fact with feeling is the original sin of placing oneself at the center of the universe as the moral arbiter.
How warped is someone who is intending to indoctrinate a young child no matter what the cause. It’s just plain wrong.
‘Replacing fact with feeling is the original sin of placing oneself at the center of the universe as the moral arbiter’ – which is what I’m reading an awful lot of in the comments above.
I was disappointed, but lesson learned? Never get excited about a positive test.
This explains a lot. Ashley, I’m sorry for the loss of your atonement child, whether you feel it was a loss or not. Please talk to someone. Your anger here is palpable, and you’re throwing out straw man arguments that no one here has even made. It’s like there’s a straw man living in your head and you’re arguing with HIM, not with us.
Ashley, homeless people die everyday without a soul in the world to mourn them. Are they any less alive? Is their life any less valuable? Your argument about mourning does not prove the child is less valuable, at most, it points out a possible double standard.
Ashely,
I, too, am very sorry for your loss. And it is a real loss, however you want to describe it or deflect. That “handful of cells” was not a vegetable or a houseplant, but an unrepeatable new human being. It matters not how short the child’s life was or how developed or undeveloped her body was within you. I think you know that instinctively.
So I’ll gladly say it and with a very straight face: It is perfectly reasonable and justifiable and normal and acceptable and right to grieve for the loss of your child. I still feel pangs of sadness when I think about my first child, whose face I never saw, whom I could not even name because I don’t know if she was a girl or he was a boy. Doesn’t matter — I still lost my child. God knows his or her name, and one day so will I.
You need peace, Ashely, and I pray you find it. You will never find it, though, in the violence and lies of “choice.”
By the time you get a positive test, your child is AT LEAST 4 weeks from conception , Ashley, not a WEEK. You really need to learn the FACTS, hon’.
And no, Ashley. No one wishes you were infertile. Not sure WHY you continue to just make things up to hate us about. I care as much about you as I do ANY of my fellow human beings.
Ashley,
Sorry for your loss.
Would you believe a miscarried “ball of cells” as you call it actually brought an already close family even closer? The so-called “ball of cells” positively impacted others as well.
Sometimes those “balls of cells”– even when miscarried– can be pretty dang powerful.
Ashley
Wishing you healing.
Ashley, I wish you healing as well.
Ashley I am very sorry to hear about your loss. It sounds as if you did want this child very much. I know you will conceive again, have a child and be happy. I knew that something very serious must have been bothering you these last few weeks. Believe me, for all the arguments, we do care about you.
Ashley, I am so sorry for the loss of your child, who is precious and valuable and now is with God. I hope someday you will be able to join him or her there.
There is nothing wrong with feeling grief. Grief is intensely personal; no one can say how much is too much, how long is too long, because it is different for everyone.
If you ever want to talk, you can contact me through my blog. I have been there. I will not publish toxic, irrelevant comments on my blog, though, just in case you were thinking of doing that–but if you want to talk, leave me your email, and I won’t publish it, and I would correspond with you if you wanted.
I am not going to discuss my feelings here now, though, as you’ve made it clear that you would think I am deranged, unstable, and need mental help.
If your baby has a name, I would love to know what it is. After my first baby died, I decided he or she would be Joseph or Anna. There’s nothing wrong with mourning for your child, whatever his or her age.
I hope that things are physically well for you; miscarriage–even very early miscarriage–can be incredibly painful. And unlike labor, where at the end you have a beautiful baby to love on, very early on you don’t end up with anything you can see, so there is nothing to make the pain worth it.
I pray for your emotional healing from all wounds.
This is one of my favorite anti-choice mental farts. Yes, I’m sure the kid would be more confident knowing that his mother did not want to be pregnant, but was forced to have him.
Hey Ashley, I know that the conversation has progressed somewhat, but I wanted to address this, because I think that like so many other arguments that take place on this site, it’s an issue of semantics.
When people talk about loving someone unconditionally, it is not the “feeling” of love necessarily. It is the action of love. It is doing what is just and fair and in that person’s best interests regardless of how you feel. Love is not wanting someone. Love is not liking someone. Love is more all-encompassing than that.
You ‘like” someone just the way they are, but you “love” them too much to let them stay that way.
If it helps to use a different word than love, because your own personal interpretation of the word is more internal-emotion-based, think of it as a very deep, powerful form of respect. It is possible to not like people, and not want people, and still respect them. That is unconditional respect. And part of unconditional respect – the most basic part – is respecting someone’s right to life.
Lots of children of pro-choice parents are VERY loved. Unconditionally loved! But there is a difference between being loved because of WHO you are, and being loved BECAUSE you are. THAT is what people are talking about when they talk about unconditional love: love that is not conditional on who you are, when you showed up, what problems you came with or what problems you came into. Love that exists because you exist.
You don’t have to feel regret over your abortion, Ashley. It’s okay not to. You don’t have to base your intellectual opinions on your emotional reactions; if you can’t seem to make your emotions line up with your knowledge in an intellectually honest way, that’s okay. Feelings are never wrong; opinions based solely on feelings often are. Respect your feelings for what they are, but don’t let them trample all over your intellect.
Wow, I’m surprised for the support and not “You deserve it.”
Treating these early pregnancies like babies does seem like a recipe to be disappointed over and over again, though. At least these comments are more sympathetic than some of my friends’. One even assumed I was relieved, and said “How lucky is that?” Ugh.
I know I need to read more of the post but I couldn’t get past this:
“I want him to understand he only has control over his own person, that because he has a penis there is no inherent right to have control over another’s person.”
I wonder just HOW MANY boys/men REALLY think like this? I can’t imagine many.
The statement is just so bizarre and twisted. Why would she even give her son this idea?
or Dr. Nadal’s great comment! :)
You are spot on Dr. Nadal. That is just what modern promiscuous life is – a sexual drive through. There is one difference though. You have to pay at MacDonalds. In your analogy, the men get their Happy Meal for free. :(
I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s reply, Ashley. And of course, I am deeply sorry for your loss. As my great-grandmother would say, you have a little treasure waiting for you in heaven.
You mention how this is a recipe to be dissipointed over and over again. Well, I think that that is the sad reality of things. People have alluded to this early on this thread, but at certain times in history, infant mortality rate was extremely high, and parents had to get used to the idea of having 12 kids and only seeing, I don’t know, 5 of them make it to adulthood. That was part of life then, and thankfully this has improved, but part of life right now is the mortality rate of the embryo, or even earlier blastocyst. Maybe someday technology will advance far enough where we’ll be able to detect pregnancy earlier and keep a close watch on the early developing embryo, and possibly even save it from what could otherwise be disaster. Just some thoughts.
Ashley, I am sorry for your loss. I had a chemical pregnancy 3 months after my first miscarriage (the one you’ve seen pictures of). If you’re interested, you can read my blog posts about my experience, and how I dealt with it. (it was a roller coaster ride, for sure)
I hope that hearing another story like yours might bring you some healing.
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/06/20/just-not-sure.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/06/22/comfort.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/06/25/the-results-i-got-today.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/06/25/im-sorry.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/06/29/i-am-crying.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/07/06/can-you-believe-it.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/07/06/got-the-results.aspx
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/08/05/hcg-levels-down-to-267.aspx
Ashley,
You are very special to me. You know that. I am glad you got the message on this thread!! You are CARED about here!! Many have expressed their sympathy in the loss of your babies and I will too. I am so sorry.
You go ahead and feel whatever you feel and keep reaching out. We are here for you!!
Also,
to say that someone “deserves” a miscarriage is beyond hurtful. I am also sorry your friend asked how lucky is that??
One even assumed I was relieved, and said “How lucky is that?” Ugh.
I’m so sorry… People many times will make these comments without really thinking. I’ve had people tell me “Well, at least you’ll have other children!”, or “At least it was not further along!” without realizing how insensitive those statements really are. Your friends probably do care a lot about you, but didn’t realize how their comments would affect you. They don’t know what it’s like because they haven’t experienced a loss like that before.
Believe me, for all the arguments, we do care about you.
I agree completely with this statement. We care about you a lot, Ashley.
Thanks…I’m glad some people actually understand what it feels like. Pro-choicers can be frustrating when they sneer about how “fertilized eggs are not people.” Well, they will be someday, and that can be an important point to someone who has one in their uterus and wants it to stay there.
I’ll be out for the rest of the day, but thanks again.
Ashley
August 19th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
No, but it says a lot about how pro-lifers don’t believe their own BS. If a zygote is your child and a teenager is your child, and most parents love their children equally, why aren’t you treating their deaths equally?
… Why, if they’re both her children? Because nobody actually believes zygotes/embryos/whatever are the same as children.
If prolifers didn’t actually believe that embryos are the same as children, they’d have no reason to be prolife.
It should also be noted that human beings aren’t fully developed at birth. The sexual organs do not finish developing until puberty and the brain doesn’t finish developing until late adolescence.
Obviously an embryo is a barely developed human being, but a toddler still has a long way to go, too. But development actually has nothing to do with being a human being. There is only one moment in time where there isn’t a human being and then there is a human being – and that moment is conception.
While the sperm and the egg individually contain human DNA – the DNA of the father or the mother – there is no new human being involved – so, it’s inaccurate to compare sperm to embryos because “they both have human DNA.” That would be like comparing a person to a body part, such as a finger (which like the person, has human DNA). If you were to place a sperm inside a uterus, nothing would grow/develop, because a sperm is only half the equation. When a sperm and egg join at conception, however, the human DNA is no longer that of the father or mother – the DNA is now unique to the embryo, and is, in fact, the embryo’s DNA. This is because an embryo is a human being in the earliest stage of development. Which, if left uninterrupted, will continue on through childhood, adolescence, adulthood, and old age.
Therefore, an early miscarriage is the death of a human being, just as the death of a toddler, a teenager, or an elderly person, is also the death of a human being – each at a different stage of life/development. Regardless of how you personally react to someone’s death (whether with nonchalance or immense grief), the value of that person is based on their humanity, not on anyone’s individual feelings about it.
Bekah, great post!
At least these comments are more sympathetic than some of my friends’. One even assumed I was relieved, and said “How lucky is that?” Ugh.
Oh, wow… sorry you had to hear something like that from a friend. I think so many times, people just don’t know what to say when a miscarriage occurs.
As for your later “fertilized egg” comment: that is a unique, newly formed life, Ashley. That little life already has all the DNA code it will ever have to make him/her who he/she is.
I’m shocked you thought anyone here, especially those who have experienced this kind of loss, would wish infertility on you. I would never wish that upon anyone. I wish you healing and wholeness, Ashley. But the truth is, you will only find those things in Christ. Not in religion, not in rituals or traditions. In the person of Jesus Christ. There’s a difference, and I know many of us here would be happy to talk with you about those things if you’re ever interested.
Wow, I’m surprised for the support and not “You deserve it.
Treating these early pregnancies like babies does seem like a recipe to be disappointed over and over again, though. At least these comments are more sympathetic than some of my friends’. One even assumed I was relieved, and said “How lucky is that?” Ugh.
Ashley, of course no one thinks you deserved to lose another baby! People here really do care about you so, so much.
I’m glad you told us about this latest pregnancy – not so we could rejoice in your misfortune or anything crazy like that, but because it helps us understand your pain. It must have been an emotional roller coaster to realize you were pregnant and then realize shortly afterwards that you weren’t anymore. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
@Ashley — I have a question for you, not abortion-related. You are a student at Ohio State, right? My nephew, who is a high school senior, is thinking of applying there, but his mother doesn’t want him to because it has a reputation as a “party school”. You seem like a serious student, and I’m sure there’s more like you there. Any comments or advice? (my nephew is a great kid and I’m sure he’d do well anywhere he went).
Ashley,
You will carry a child to term, and that child, as with all children, will be your greatest joy. We are given marriage and children by God to teach us how to love authentically. God’s love for you is literally boundless, Ashley, and He is no more finished with you than He is any one of us. We will be offering our family Rosary tonight for your hurting mother’s heart and asking God for His perfect healing.
Email Carla when you get a chance
Oh, Ashley, of course we care about you. We always have. That’s why so many of us noticed that something was wrong long before we knew WHAT was wrong. That’s what real friends do. And, despite the “impersonality” of the internet, you do have real friends here.
I’ve heard those comments, too. Since I have hypothyroidism, I have a very hard time maintaining a pregnancy during the first 12 weeks (I’m good beyond that point, but the early months really mess with my thyroid levels). And, because I have seven children, I’ve not only had people assume that I’m happy about a miscarriage, I’ve had them tell me how happy THEY were about it. (Which is one of the reasons I am very careful who IRL I tell during the first few weeks.)
Hey Elisabeth…regarding your breast-feeding analogy posted above, another reason women might lash out is jealousy. I HATED and still hate hearing women talking about breastfeeding, their woes, their successes because I tried and couldn’t and it really upset me. I hated that I eventually had to end up using formula. It might be the same with post-abortive moms. They didn’t want to choose abortion but felt they had no other choice. They sneer at any woman who enjoys her pregnancy and relishes her growing child because they didn’t get to do that.
Ashley, most children who are abused were ‘planned” and “wanted”. Child abuse has skyrocketed since 1973. We were told abortion would solve child abuse but it has not. Whether a child is wanted or not, abused or not, that does NOT take away a child’s humanity. Feelings do not dictate truth. Facts dictate truth.
I have never had a miscarriage and I hope I never do. You have a right to feel sad and mourn. I hope you will know how much we all care about you. I do and I have never met you.
“But I have no doubt I’ll have another chance. (I got my reproductive system checked out and everything is 100% fine. Sorry, antis who wish I would be punished with infertility!)”
I am certain that there is not one prolife person on this blog who would wish for you to be infertile, Ashley.
I do not even believe that God punishes women who have had abortions with infertility. Post abortive women who are infertile are so because the procedure damaged their bodies and NOT because God brought fire and brimstone down upon them. They are infertile because abortion is against the nature of a woman’s body and therefore can do harm. It is not natural to rip a baby out of the womb.
“And, because I have seven children, I’ve not only had people assume that I’m happy about a miscarriage, I’ve had them tell me how happy THEY were about it.”
This is just sad. :(
(I’d be wanting to smack people.)
The way I figure it, if I love my child–even if I’m not sure I ever was pregnant, which has happened–at least someone loved that child. If I never love my child, and no one else knows about my child, that baby would never have been loved on earth. So it’s worth some emotional pain for me, even if it ends up that I never was pregnant, to love each and every child I have, even when I’m not sure I ever was pregnant. That probably seems foolish to most people, but I believe that sometimes the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world.
I would never wish a miscarriage on anyone–and your child is innocent, as all little ones are.
Stupid comments is why I very rarely talk to anyone in real life about my experiences. I don’t want anyone to act like my children didn’t ever matter. They matter to me. They matter to God. They matter to their father. Even if they never had any rights.
There was a time when I asked God only that next time I would see my child’s face. Not even that he or she would be born, but just that the baby would be big enough that I could see him or her…. When I finally got pregnant I thought it might just be that God was answering that prayer. It was hard to believe I was really going to bring my baby home. I convinced myself that why I went through all I did might be because there was something wrong with my baby, and God wanted me to be able to be thankful for her. I didn’t like people praying that she would be healthy, because I loved her no matter what.
But God’s plan was to give me a beautiful baby girl who is smart and funny and generous and Godly, and as healthy and whole as they come. Now I have two beautiful children, when once I thought I would never had any. He is so good, and I am so blessed–I have two children whom I love so much. Someday we will all be reunited with their brothers and sisters as well…. but for now, raising the two I have on earth so far is the awesome task God has set for me. And while I will never forget their brothers and sisters, having these two children makes the pain a faraway thing, not a constant presence that overwhelms my life.
The fact that I couldn’t have all of my children on earth–it would not have been possible due to the timing–does not mean I love the ones who died any less. God had a purpose and a plan in all of it, and each of them was part of it. God knows what is best for me, and loves me, and though I do not always understand it, my part is only to follow His plan.
“Stupid comments is why I very rarely talk to anyone in real life about my experiences. I don’t want anyone to act like my children didn’t ever matter. They matter to me. They matter to God. They matter to their father. Even if they never had any rights.”
I think many people simply don’t know what to say to someone who has had a miscarriage. Also a lot of women I think have enough trouble dealing with the loss of the baby and they don’t know how to adequately express what they are feeling inside. This is an incredibly intimate subject also. I’ve never had a miscarriage but I have many friends who have had 4 or 5 miscarriages and I’ve seen them suffer terribly both physically and emotionally. Even spiritually. How to help? Sometimes just to listen but it is also important and helpful if the person listening understands AND believes that this was a baby. And I’m betting in the current culture that belief isn’t always there. :(
Sorry about the last comment–left part of your post in there, Ashley, and it won’t let me edit (unless a mod could take care of it?)
Angel, that is some of what I’m afraid of. Even with “church people.”
“Sorry about the last comment–left part of your post in there, Ashley, and it won’t let me edit (unless a mod could take care of it?)”
Perhaps… for a small fee! Bwahahahahahaha!
Just kidding, done and done.
(whew)..just read thru all the posts here and WAS wondering what happened to Ashley…a bit agitated than usual…
Sorry to hear about the loss of your little one … will include you in my prayers, for healing…
*My wife and I lost a little one to miscarriage, too….he/she was an unexpected preganancy but was a welcome one.
Ashley, miscarriage is so hard. The thing that helps me get through it is the knowledge that that little life existed, and that soul is safe with God. My husband and I pray for our all of our children when I’m pregnant. We most of all pray that they will know Him and that they will be of use to Him to further his kingdom (I know, way more religious than I usually get on here!)
Anyways, we both really feel that God has a plan for each and every life he creates. Those lives, however short, are used by Him. We can’t always see why God would make a life so short, but He knows. When it comes to eternity, life on Earth is increadibly fleeting. I like to think that babies who are miscarried just fulfilled all they needed to fulfil in this world and get a free pass to Heaven. :) This isn’t to say that it’s any easier on those of us left behind, but just that God is in control. I am so sorry for your loss. *hugs*
Lauren, you wrote exactly the thoughts that go through my mind (and I’ve had more miscarriages than I’ve had children, so it’s not a rare thought for me.)
Sometimes when people comment on the number of children I have (or make a comment about how it looks like a “parade” when we all walk to church) I just grin inwardly and think… Wow… what a parade it will really look like when we get to heaven and I have ALL my children with me!
“I was disappointed, but lesson learned? Never get excited about a positive test. Like I said, treating every blastocyst like a baby is a recipe for disaster.”
I remember a searing quote - i cannot remember the author –
“The price of love is the pain of loss.”
We have all been pained by the loss of a blastocyte. Either our own or a close family member. Yes, the first time this happens is a real head-snap, and I believe we all get a little guarded emotionally to protect ourselves from that pain again.
Myself, my emotions have hid behind the intellectual idea that a positive test can be wrong, and so wait on a second, lest I get excited, then hurt.
The pain of loss is huge. It is a big challenge to suffer a few of these hurts and to still to go through life willing to make real connections with others, to be vulnerable, to love.
We grieve because we love.
One of my fave quotes but don’t know who wrote it.
Read this one and thought immediately of Robert Berger.
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
C. S. Lewis
This one is for all the ‘progressives’ out there.
We all want progress, but if you’re on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.
C. S. Lewis
To the ‘dead babies r us’ mob:
If we cut up beasts simply because they cannot prevent us and because we are backing our own side in the struggle for existence, it is only logical to cut up imbeciles, criminals, enemies, or capitalists for the same reasons.
C. S. Lewis
“Whenever you find a man who says he doesn’t believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later.”
C. S. Lewis
“Who can endure a doctrine which would allow only dentists to say whether our teeth were aching, only cobblers to say whether our shoes hurt us, and only governments to tell us whether we were being well governed?”
C. S. Lewis
“A great many of those who ‘debunk’ traditional…values have in the background values of their own which they believe to be immune from the debunking process.”
C. S. Lewis
“Wherever any precept of traditional morality is simply challenged to produce its credentials, as though the burden of proof lay on it, we have taken the wrong position.”
C. S. Lewis
“Everyone feels benevolent if nothing happens to be annoying him at the moment.”
C. S. Lewis
“Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst.”
c.s. lewis
“Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger.”
C. S. Lewis
Eureka! I finally found the quote for which I was searching.
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”
C. S. Lewis
..
Ashley,
I just wanted to say that I’m sorry for your recent loss. It’s difficult to lose a pregnancy, sometimes more so than we realize at first. I will pray for your healing. I don’t want to get into a debate about your past decisions, but I do want to say that I would never wish infertility on you.
You have my thoughts and prayers.
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. . . . ”
ken, that is one of my favorite Lewis quotes!
I’m praying for you too Ashley.
May you find peace and healing and no fear in the one who truly loves you unconditionally.
One day may you find Him who says:
“Cast all of your cares upon me for I care for you.”
“Come unto me all who are weary and I will give you rest.”
“The enemy comes to rob, steal and destroy but I am come to give you LIFE and that more abundantly.”
“My peace I give unto you, not as the world gives.”
“Fear not, for I am with you always even until the end of the age.”
“For God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and LOVE and of a sound mind.’
Peace.
I’m overwhelmed by the support I’ve had on this site. Almost makes me cry. Anyway, I’m saving the comments to a document and signing off.
This whole experience made me think things over, and how maybe I should cool my heels and get married first. Desperately wanting something doesn’t make it a great idea. Of course, I’d be thrilled about any that came along, but maybe it just wasn’t meant to happen…yet.
Thank you everyone for your support.
I bet we’d have to throw a most awesome “virtual bridal shower”…
Ashley, I definitely think that getting married first is a good idea. For what it’s worth, there was a time, even as a Christian, when I wished I hadn’t waited, when it seemed so many people around me were being blessed for fooling around while 4 years of marriage had left me without children on this earth…. But now I feel differently. I have learned that what I did before I was married (which stopped short of sex, but not enough short), even though it was with the man I ended up marrying, was wrong–and all along I felt that in my heart–but once we married, those same things felt wrong still. Marriage meant they weren’t sinful, but something didn’t feel right about them. It took years before that became clear to me, and only then could God heal that difficulty in my mind. So now I thank God that sex was never part of that package for me, because that meant it felt right once we were married, as God intended it to be. I say this not to shame you from anything you’ve done, but so that you don’t ignore or dismiss it as I did; you can have healing by realizing that some of the things you have done are wrong, and committing to do them when it is right. If you don’t agree they were wrong, fine; but I just wanted you to have that knowledge, if you want it now, or ever want it in the future.
I wish you a happy, healthy, fulfilling, loving, fruitful marriage.
Ashley,
That was probably the most beautiful metanoia I have ever witnessed. I’m starting to tear up too. God love you.
I love this thread!!! :)
What amazes me is how pro-aborts celebrate their own birthdays but deprive the unborn of the right to have a birthday.