Jivin J’s Life Links 10-7-10
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- The National Post has a story about a Canadian couple who used a surrogate in an attempt to have a child. After the child was diagnosed as having a good chance of having Down Syndrome, the parents wanted the surrogate to have an abortion:… The surrogate, however, was determined to take the pregnancy to term, sparking a disagreement that has raised thorny questions about the increasingly common arrangements.
- Under the agreement the trio signed, the surrogate’s choice would mean absolving the couple of any responsibility for raising the child, the treating doctor told a recent fertility-medicine conference……
The surrogate, a mother of 2 children of her own, eventually chose to have the abortion, partly because of her own family obligations…..
Françoise Baylis, a Dalhousie University bioethicist, said the case highlights how human life can become like a commodity in such transactions.
“The child is seen by the commissioning parents as a product, and in this case a substandard product because of a genetic condition,” Prof. Baylis said.
Holt-Reid and Yolanda M. Burgess, the woman he forced to the clinic, have a child together… [b]ut they do not appear to share a home address…. State birth records show that child is a 4-year-old boy.
… Holt-Reid became angry after Burgess refused to go through with an abortion that had been scheduled for 9 a.m. at the clinic.
Holt-Reid pulled a handgun from the glove compartment, pointed it at her and forced her to drive to the health clinic…. The woman passed a note to a clinic employee, who called police.
Kumpe said, “They said they could hear her from 100 feet away through a brick wall and a plate glass door. We had two witnesses who say she didn’t say those words and she was not louder than anyone else.”
Kumpe said a pro-abortion advocate stood on the abortion clinic property and yelled at the pro-life group across the street. He yelled various things, including some comments meant to sound like they were pro-life sentiments.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So a woman is never coerced to have an abortion? Hmm, guess this story (and others like it) disprove THAT thought.
I’m not a fan of surragacy, and that story is just one more reason why. They want a child so bad they turn to a surrogate, but then, when the child has a potential difficulty/disability/problem/health issue, then suddenly having a child isn’t so important, because he/she isn’t “perfect.”
Hire the surrogate to carry the child? Try to force the surrogate to abort the child? The surrogate succumbs and the child is killed? Gee, I thought it was the pro-lifers that wanted to use women as baby making machines.
More and more, the “choice” to abort becomes the obligation to abort.
I think you missed the “best” quote from the National Post article:
“The baby that’s being carried is their baby. It’s usually their genetic offspring,” she said. “Why should the intended parents be forced to raise a child they didn’t want? It’s not fair.”
So the parent is not the child’s guardian or custodian, but an OWNER. THEIR genes, THEIR interests. As if the child doesn’t own her own genes! Unbelievable.
On a related note, it’s unusual to find someone so strongly anti-life who’s willing to say the “b-word.”
I posted the surrogate story on my facebook. I’ll say here what I said there: This is what happens when you ignore JPII’s Theology of the Body. If you haven’t read it, go read it now!
“The child is seen by the commissioning parents as a product, and in this case a substandard product because of a genetic condition,” Prof. Baylis said.
Wow, all I can say is wow.
So a baby with a disablity is a ‘substandard product’, my son is developmentally disabled and if someone deemed him a ‘substandard product’ I would be so hurt. I believe my son would also be hurt if someone told her this.
At least the baby is now back in Heaven.
Yolanda is one brave woman, I wish her & her babies well.
The baby that’s being carried is their baby. It’s usually their genetic offspring,” she said. “Why should the intended parents be forced to raise a child they didn’t want? It’s not fair.”
Kelsey that quote made me hopping mad! What a bunch of whining, immature, narcissistic, navel- gazing people these “parents” are. May God be just when dealing with this couple and the surrogate. :(
Lauren this is where contraception has led us to. :(
You cannot FORCE someone to have an abortion against their will!!
If you sidewalk counsel or are a volunteer in a resource center here is some info for you to download from the Center Against Forced Abortion.
http://www.txjf.org/pages.asp?pageid=99931
But it’s all about “choice” right? Yeah right. 64% of abortions are coerced/forced.
Thank you abortion clinic worker for calling the police!!!
I remember a case in Michigan years ago, it was made into a TV movie, about a couple who had a woman surrogate for them. It was discovered the surrogate was carrying twins. The couple was not happy with this news and when it was discovered at birth that it was a boy and a girl, they took only the girl and said the surrogate could do what she wanted with the boy. The surrogate, the twins’ biological mother, went to court and won custody of both babies. This story had a happy ending and served the couple right for thinking children can be treated like a litter of puppies.
You can hardly blame the would-be parents for their reaction. Surrogate services are expensive, and they expected a healthy baby as a result. If I ordered a brand-new car from a dealer and they called me a week later and told me that the car would have serious, unfixable mechanical problems but that I should pay for it anyway, you can bet that I’d see them in court.
Wow, joan. Are you actually comparing a baby — a human being – to a CAR — an inaminate object??? How cold.
No baby is perfect — no human being is perfect. We all have imperfections. If imperfection is the criterion for the worth of a human being, none of us deserves to live. Do you understand that???
I feel sorry for you. And I sincerely hope you have no children.
RE: the trial concerning the pro-life protestor at an abortuary in Tulsa, OK
During the brief trial, 2 employees of the abortion clinic said they could hear her shouting from across the street, “You are murderers.”
Kumpe said, “They said they could hear her from 100 feet away through a brick wall and a plate glass door. We had two witnesses who say she didn’t say those words and she was not louder than anyone else.” (my emphasis)
Kumpe said a pro-abortion advocate stood on the abortion clinic property and yelled at the pro-life group across the street. He yelled various things, including some comments meant to sound like they were pro-life sentiments. (again, my emphasis)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This reminds me of some other recent events where detractors tried to make it appear that others who in fact were not doing anything wrong were shouting or doing hateful things. I am so glad this tactic did not work in this situation!
“Wow, joan. Are you actually comparing a baby — a human being – to a CAR — an inaminate object??? How cold.”
When they’re both being exchanged for money in an economic transaction? Yes.
“No baby is perfect — no human being is perfect. We all have imperfections. If imperfection is the criterion for the worth of a human being, none of us deserves to live. Do you understand that??? ”
Imperfection? Down Syndrome is merely an “imperfection” to you?
I’ll tell you one thing, Joan: I’d rather have a kid with Down Syndrome than have a kid who grew up to be as hardened and unfeeling as you.
That’s sweet of you to say.
What makes you think we’re here to be sweet?
Joan, my friends firstborn son has Down Syndrome and they love him more than their own lives. He brings so much joy to the family and he is the favorite grandchild of both grandparents. He is not perfect in YOUR eyes but he is their precious little boy and they would not “exchange” him for a “perfect” child.
So what if the baby had been biologically “perfect”? Blonde hair and blue eyes just like Hitler wanted (sound familiar Joan?) What if he had gotten to school age and received an F on his report card. Could the parents trade him in then?
True enough: the people here make it a point to be quite vindictive to those who don’t share their exact same views.
Oh, you’re right Sydney, someone who doesn’t want a severely disabled child obviously desires an Aryan ubermensch instead.
Joan–it’s not about views. It’s about a sort of fascist attitude you have (and most pro-aborts have) that dehumanizes babies. There is a lot of open discussion here, and, unlike almost all pro-abortion sites, comments are welcome from both sides.
But you continue to belittle and berate children, compare them to CARS, act as if children are things to get, refuse to see that they are PERSONS with their own right to live, their own bodies, and their own intrinsic value as human beings, and then you wonder why people get so angry. My close friends have a child with Down’s Syndrome. He is a beautiful, beautiful child. He is loving, and sweet, and generous, and he makes our lives so wonderful. He is a gift. The fact that you and other pro-aborts see children as possessions, and the fact that you see nothing wrong in the violent killing of a little baby person for whatever reason you see fit….Yes, don’t be surprised when that unleashes a lot of anger. I am angry when I see pictures of the Holocaust. I am angry when I hear people belittling the gay community. And I am the most angry when people are so full of pride that they actually seem to get a kick out of dehumanizing babies and supporting their killing. It is the most despicable act of all humankind. Perhaps you should take your trolling elsewhere. You have never offered anything that goes beyond mere hatred. And sound bites. And slogans. YOU are the one who doesn’t want to hear the truth.
Joan – you have been busy tonight – covering two threads! Good luck with being contrary in all places. After a while it might wear a little thin. Maybe you could try to volunteer for those who are less fortunate – we learn from the poor – they teach us much. In this world of ME, ME, ME it’s nice to be able to truly say ‘how can I help you?’ and hello and give a meal to someone who needs one. The possibilities are endless to be good and loving.
Good night all. Many blessings to each and everyone of you (including Joan).
Joan I am comparing your attitude to the nazis. Yes, I am. Because they wanted “perfect” children too. “Perfect” people…Jews didn’t fit that so they killed them. Kinda like your attitude towards Down’s babies. They are not “perfect” so you are okay with killing them. Especially if they aren’t part of a “contract”. Like they’re some commodity.
So one family wants blue eyed, blonde children. Didn’t get that? Kill it! Another family wants a child with dark cocoa skin like them. The skin isn’t dark enough? kill it! Cause in Joan’s bizarro world children are just inaminate dolls that you can order to your specifications. And if you don’t get what you order its breach of contract! Kill! Kill! Kill!
Very glad Joan doesn’t have the power of life and death over my life. I dare say if I had been her daughter she would have had me killed for being terribly near-sighted.
“Joan–it’s not about views. It’s about a sort of fascist attitude you have (and most pro-aborts have) that dehumanizes babies.”
I think you need to come clean here and just admit that you are constitutionally incapable of having a civil disagreement with anyone that doesn’t share your beliefs on this issue. There is just no room for anyone to disagree with your position on this issue in good faith. I’m a fascist and a murderer because I support the continued legality of a safe medical procedure.
“But you continue to belittle and berate children, compare them to CARS”
I’ve already justified my comparison. In an age when sperm, eggs, and womb space have a price, comparing a monetary transaction for surrogate services and the purchase of a car is not unreasonable. It wasn’t a flippant comparison either: if I was trying to be callous, I would have used the example of buying a Big Mac instead. A car is a major purchase, in the same way that hiring a woman to be a surrogate mother is a major purchase.
“My close friends have a child with Down’s Syndrome. He is a beautiful, beautiful child. He is loving, and sweet, and generous, and he makes our lives so wonderful. He is a gift.”
Great. Glad it’s working out for your close friends. Most people do not want to have a child with Down Syndrome, period.
“I am angry when I hear people belittling the gay community.”
I know that gay rights aren’t the subject of this blog, but you are really at odds with most of the posters here on this issue. Maybe you could redirect some of that venom you’re spewing my way towards the other people here with decidedly regressive beliefs about this topic too, if you really feel so strongly about it?
I can’t get upset with you Joan. It would be the same as my getting upset with a blind person who steps on my foot.
What do you hope for Joan?
“Joan I am comparing your attitude to the nazis. Yes, I am. Because they wanted “perfect” children too. “Perfect” people…Jews didn’t fit that so they killed them. Kinda like your attitude towards Down’s babies. They are not “perfect” so you are okay with killing them. Especially if they aren’t part of a “contract”. Like they’re some commodity.”
You are intentionally misrepresenting my position. I never said anything about “perfect” children. We’re talking about a condition that makes living a normal life completely impossible. People who will be completely unable to take care of themselves for the entire duration of their short lives. You’re trying to caricature me as some kind of Nazi mad scientist and it’s offensive and absurd.
Whats a “normal” life Joan? Thats my point. Do you own a crystal ball for each person on this planet Joan? I know Downs people that live on their own and hold jobs. Others never leave home and their parents love having their companionship. Whats your point? Some “normal” children grow up to be drug addicts who rob and kill their parents. Some ‘normal” people are a drain on society and can’t hold down jobs and live miserable lives. Humans are all different. Having Downs does not mean your life has no worth and that you can’t be an asset to your family and to society. Killing someone for having a disability is what the nazis did Joan. In fact they were particularly cruel when they killed the elderly and disabled. You defend kiling the diabled in the womb Joan. Thus, yes, your outlook is very much like the Nazis.
Joan, don’t tell me I’m close-minded. For one thing, you’re gonna come across a lot of pro-life views, because, gee, you’re on a pro-life site. However, I am also pro-birth control and pro gay-marriage. I’m not one to believe exactly what others tell me; I am known for weighing everything and doing research before coming to a conclusion.
But your remarks ARE hateful. They ARE fascist. They ARE cruel. Abortion is the killing of a baby person. No matter how much you try to twist that around, you cannot change that fact. You cannot dehumanize something that is human. You cannot make someone NOT be a person, no matter what language you use, because we are people, period, from the moment we come into existence. And it is NOT a safe procedure. At all. We’ve seen this time and time again. As a woman, I cannot defend abortion, because it 1) kills children and 2) hurts women. It promotes selfishness, narrow-mindedness, it causes depression. It is cruel, it is unjust, it is unnecessary, it is bloody. But you have never said anything, ever, that would make any of us stop and think and try to reach a middle ground. Of all the pro-aborts who lurk here, you are the most arrogant, and the most self-congratulatory. You don’t want a dialogue. You don’t want to learn anything. Yes, abortion makes me angry. It especially makes me angry when people are so callous about it, as you are, especially when you pro-aborts waste so much time spewing all that “this is a difficult decision” garbage.
Oh, and “GOODY you’re glad it worked out for them”? This is your response? When they found out their son was going to have Down’s, they loved him, PERIOD, because he is their son. It’s difficult, yes. It really is. But it’s worth it. That’s the pro-life view. We are not here for our own purposes. We are not here for our own interests. The world owes us nothing. We are not ENTITLED to anything, especially not “perfect” babies. Your lack of respect is appalling. It is absolutely appalling.
“Whats a “normal” life Joan?”
Not needing someone to wipe your ass for you until the day you die sounds like a pretty good metric for defining what a “normal” life is. It is true that some people–many people–will end up leading poor lives, for reasons entirely their own fault. Your comparison fails because these people had reasonable opportunities to do better; a person with Down Syndrome is structurally incapable of leading a normal, productive life. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are rare and insignificant.
“You defend kiling the diabled in the womb Joan.”
Since you believe that abortion is murder, anyone who defends abortion is defending killing in the womb for you. With that in mind, I don’t know why’d you single out my particular support for abortion in this particular circumstance as being especially worse.
Often the way they figure out if a person has Downs Syndrome is with test that isn’t 100 percent certain. I know a lady who was told one of her kids would how Downs and that kid most definitely does NOT have Downs. That’s why I never had it. It’s risky and it’s unreliable and it’s not necessary–I only had the tests done that were absolutely necessary–which, other than regular blood tests, I can’t think of any other tests that were necesssary.
That child was dignanosed with a good chance of having Downs, but does anyone know if he/she actually DID have it? No, because said child was aborted.
Like I said, those tests are unreliable. They can state a chance of Downs, but they can’t tell you for sure.
“But your remarks ARE hateful. They ARE fascist. They ARE cruel. Abortion is the killing of a baby person. No matter how much you try to twist that around, you cannot change that fact. You cannot dehumanize something that is human.”
I think you need to learn to distinguish between fact and opinion.
“You cannot make someone NOT be a person, no matter what language you use, because we are people, period, from the moment we come into existence.”
“Person” is not a scientific or medical term. It’s imbued with and defined by social meaning, which is an inherently imprecise business. I don’t see fetuses as “people”. Society, broadly speaking, does not see fetuses as “people”.
“But you have never said anything, ever, that would make any of us stop and think and try to reach a middle ground.”
And you’ve made it perfectly clear that there is no middle ground to be reached here in the first place. Wouldn’t I be wasting my time trying to find this elusive “middle ground”? Answer honestly.
“It especially makes me angry when people are so callous about it, as you are, especially when you pro-aborts waste so much time spewing all that “this is a difficult decision” garbage.”
So what it is then? An easy decision?
“When they found out their son was going to have Down’s, they loved him, PERIOD, because he is their son. It’s difficult, yes. It really is. But it’s worth it. That’s the pro-life view.”
I’m sorry to inform you that your yin has a yang here. Most people don’t want a child with Down Syndrome, and if given the choice, would not knowingly go through with a pregnancy that would result in a child with Down Syndrome.
Joan,
I would like to have a civilized discussion with you. You make it hard. “BUT SHE DIDN’T DELIVER A GOOD BABY.”
I agree with Marauder- I would rather have a “flawed” baby than a coldhearted (but perfect!) you.
Good God.
Joan,
Let me guess…you are a Democrat. Ding, ding, ding… that was not difficult. I hope Obamacare gets repealed but if it doesn’t then you should have a future under Kathleen Sebelius or maybe you could get a socialized medicine gig under Donald Berwick; determining which Medicare recipients ‘deserve’ care. During a Senate recess Obama appointed Berwick to be in charge of determining which lives have value. Berwick will be looking for bureaucrats like you who would look at people as commodities when making decisions about wether or not a person gets care. Does the idea of getting control of our money to fund bureaucrats and red tape appeal to you? Berwick does it under the guise of distributing wealth to give health care to the needy; but he and his Democratic allies are really just a bunch of self-serving theives. You know the day of reckoning is coming for your kind and I hope you get your asses handed to you on a silver platter in November. No amount of bribes and political appointees to judgeships are going to be able to deny the will of the America and Obamacare is only going to get less and less popular. Watch the costs spiral out of control and the people being treated like commodities and being forced to pay into Obamacare under the threat of 16,000 new IRS agents to come after them. Because of Obama and Obamacare this Novemeber is going to be the beginning of a new rise of conservatism in America.
If Joan starts using the word “fundies” I’m heading for the next thread, lol!
I can’t imagine someone getting on a blog just to dole out poison. It’s dreadful. All we can do is pray in this case. I think dealing with this level of bitterness out of my league and needs the Lord’s special care. You know, if you read the Gospel, you’ll see that no one receives healing at random. Jesus didn’t wave his hand and heal a whole city at once. Each person either asked directly for their own healing or was interceded for by someone else. Let’s intercede for Joan and ask for healing and wholeness.
Well, bringing up children really is great, enjoyable, fulfilling and so on (as well as tiring and a pain in the neck at times), but those are not the reasons to do it or not do it. You bring up your kids because that’s your job.
It’s a duty.
Not to say one can’t get a kick out of doing it, but if you do it to get something for yourself you’ll do it wrong and probably not find it so much fun to boot.
If your child turns out to have more chromosomes than most, if anything you have a stronger duty to help him or her make the best of things. And what do you know… you might even find, if you square up to it like a mensch (or female equivalent thereof), somehow it turns out to be pretty darn’ good for mom and pop too.
But it starts from recognising, it’s not about me the parent, it’s about my parental duty to my children.
(I want to get our son – who has DS – a T shirt that says “think I’m cute? 9 out of 10 mommies and daddies would have killed me before I was born!”… but my wife won’t let me for some reason…)
Remember, everybody: Joan says she’s Catholic. If you need a forklift to lift your dropped jaw from the floor, you can borrow mine when I’m done with it.
My comment just got lost. I’ll try again.
Joan,
You call yourself Catholic at least study and read what the Catholic Church says about abortion and why.
At Christmas, I pray that you will receive the grace to understand what really goes on during Mass. It is more than a ritual. Have you ever studied, why the Mass is organised the way it is and what the Catholic Church teaches? The Catholic Church accepts you where you are at but at the same time as a Mother, encourages and pushes to become more.
Do you really understand what communion is all about? Do you accept it’s teaching on the Eucharist? The is a deep link between receiving Holy Communion and abortion.
Really Joan, why do you consider yourself a Catholic? You don’t seem to accept or understand any of its teachings. If you don’t agree to the majority of it’s teachings why go and identify yourself to that religion? It doesn’t make sense. It would be more honest to leave the Catholic Church and find a denomination that identifies with your beliefs. I really don’t get why you would want to be Catholic if you don’t like it’s teachings. Are you hoping that through democracy or with time it will change it’s stance on moral issues such as abortion?
I’m completely baffled as to why you want to identify yourself as a Catholic. Why do you go through the trouble of going to Christmas and Easter Mass? Two of the longest services of the year?
In my opinion some of the most useless human beings on this planet are “normal”. The ones who spend the most time wallowing in self pity, naval gazing, and sitting in analysts’ offices are “normal”.
Some of the most happy and productive people are the ones facing great physical, emotional, and mental challenges. The Discovery Health, TLC, and A&E channels often present programs on such individuals and it is amazing and humbling to watch.
How do we judge the value of anyone’s life or determine who has the capacity to enjoy their lives?
Why is it that every discussion I’m involved in inevitably turns to someone questioning my faith? Are you really such a busybody, Chantal, that you need to know every single detail of my beliefs?
No one is questioning your beliefs Joan because we are busy bodies. On another thread you spit out that you are Catholic and pro-abortion and did it as if daring us to question you on it. We are wondering why pretend you are Catholic when you are so obviously enraged over the doctrines of the Catholic church? If you are going to be so offended by us asking you questions then don’t come here. You are a flaming pro-abort among pro-lifers, its common sense we are going to engage you in debate and ask you questions to better understand where you’re coming from.
joan
October 7th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
“Whats a “normal” life Joan?”
Not needing someone to wipe your ass for you until the day you die sounds like a pretty good metric for defining what a “normal” life is. . . . Your comparison fails because these people had reasonable opportunities to do better; a person with Down Syndrome is structurally incapable of leading a normal, productive life.
Do you have any experience with Downs? It doesn’t sound like you know much about them. They are very high-functioning, happy individuals who thoroughly enjoy life. My parents took in a Downs woman ten years ago and she is a member of our family just like anyone else. I can assure you she needs no help with going to the washroom. lol Goodness.
What if the same comments made about Down Syndrome and other people with physical and mental challenges were instead made about people of a certain race, religion, or ethnicity? We would be aghast at such appalling bigotry and hatred. Yet this same appalling bigotry and hatred of people who are challenged is perfectly acceptable. How quickly we forget that the first victims of German gas chambers, before the Nazis even came to power, were the mentally and physcially challenged.
Have you noticed it is not people with challenges that call for the aborting or killing of the challenged, but rather the “normal” people who assume to know best about something they obviously have no understanding of?
Speaking of a normal life. How about Dr. Jen Arnold? She is married, a neonatalogist and an associate professor at a medical school. Sounds very normal as well as very accomplished, right?
Dr.Arnold is 3 feet 2 inches tall and must meet challenges on a daily basis. She endured numerous surgeries as a child. Is Dr.Arnold not “normal”.
How do we judge the value of anyone’s life or determine who has the capacity to enjoy their lives?
Hi Mary. Your comment reminds me of one of my favorite vids, Johnny the Bagger.
I didn’t realize I made so many mistakes when typing this message yesterday evening. I was busy, was on my way to an appointment, and missed them. Here it is, corrected, with the corrected words emphasized:
Wow, joan. Are you actually comparing a baby — a human being – to a CAR — an inanimate object??? How cold.
No baby is perfect — no human being is perfect. We all have imperfections. If perfection is the criterion for the worth of a human being, none of us deserves to live. Do you understand that???
I feel sorry for you. And I sincerely hope you have no children.
I never said anything about “perfect” children. We’re talking about a condition that makes living a normal life completely impossible. People who will be completely unable to take care of themselves for the entire duration of their short lives.
joan, you are very uninformed about children who have Down’s Syndrome. My pastor and his wife’s youngest child was born with DS. She is now 16 years old. Like most children born with DS, she was born with a hole in her heart, which was corrected with surgery not long after her birth. Doctors say she can expect to live a much-longer life than children who do not get that surgery. Many doctors used to have your attitude, used to think DS children were not worth helping, and they didn’t do that surgery (which is surprisingly simple) so they could have a much-longer life span.
Also, their child was mainstreamed into public school classrooms from the time she was only seven years old. The main reason for this is that the parents worked with her, doing all the things medical professionals recommended, from the time she was born. She is very intelligent, is very emotionally engaged with other people, has a marvelous personality. She literally glows with joy. I cannot tell you how many lives she has profoundly touched.
Both parents say she has literally changed their lives. They now see life from a completely different perspective, through a clearer lens. They realize now that ALL people have imperfections which often hinder them throughout life — whether those imperfections are spiritual, mental, emotional, or physical. Thank God, He loves us all and sees value in ALL of us. We do not have to be “perfect” (as if that were possible) to merit His love and concern.
Please check out http://mommylife.net/. Mother of 12, 3 with Down Syndrome, and she 2 of her sons with Down Syndrome are her ADOPTED children.
“…a person with Down Syndrome is structurally incapable of leading a normal, productive life. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are rare and insignificant.”
This is a P.S. to my last post to you, joan. Your statement here is completely false. I don’t know if it makes you feel better about “doctors”* committing infanticide**, particularly on nascent infants who possibly have DS, but it is simply not true.
*I have to put “doctors” in quotes, because every medical professional who commits abortion has to violate the Hippocratic Oath in order to do so.
**The Latin word “fetus” simply means “offspring”. A human offspring is an infant. Thus, abortion = infanticide.
Dr. Bernard Nathanson, a co-founder of NARAL who admits to having killed 75,000 nascent infants, including at least one of his own, before the advent of ultrasound literally opened his eyes to the reality of nascent children, says that one of the ways he and his cohorts strived to make infanticide palatable to the American public (though we never voted for it; the Supreme Court disregarded and overruled our sensibilities, based on a LIE — see Norma McCorvey’s (Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade) book Won by Love) was by changing definitions of terms. “Fetus” is just one example of that. If you don’t believe me, go to his website. There is MUCH MORE info there. If you are willing to have your eyes opened, he will help you open them.
I know a lady who was told one of her kids would have Downs and that kid most definitely does NOT have Downs.
This happened to me too. Not only did the test show a strong likelihood of DS, but also of spinal bifida! (neither of which turned out to be true) My OB was shocked when I told him I would not consider abortion. Later, he told me that my attitude had “challenged and blessed” him. I was amazed to hear that, because I knew he was not a Christian. (I also knew he did not commit abortion, which was my main criterion for choosing an OB).
Claire, your OB was probably very sympathetic of abortion though. I hope his interaction with you helped change his mind. My OB was like that. He did not do abortions but I learned through my months as his patient that he was very sympathetic to it. I now have a pro-life OB/GYN
Hi FedUP,
That just moved me to tears. Thank you. Years ago a women’s prison in my hometown started a program where women prisoners, those not in prison for violent crimes, would be allowed to spend a few days a week at the local state hospital with the children. Many of the women snorted at the idea of spending time with “retards” but it sure beat sitting in a cell all day.
The women loved it. More and more volunteered to go and many signed up for extra days. The children were overjoyed to see the women. One woman described how the children love and accept the women, they don’t care about their criminal pasts. they only love and accept THEM, seeing in the women what no one else did. Many women, who likely would have just returned to lives of crime, spoke of turning their lives around completely once they left prison, being trained as aides to work in the institutions, etc. and credited their time with the children for transforming their lives. Amazing that these mentally challenged children could do for these women what no “expert” could ever do.
BTW FedUP, I spend this Sunday at bowling with special olympics. Its great fun, though sometimes I feel like I am conducting an orchestra. That is such an incredible organization and its wonderful to see the staff and families there to support the athletes.
Oh and FedUp,
You can see Dr.Arnold and her husband, also a little person who is a businessman, on The Little Couple. I believe its on Discovery or TLC. I’m sure you can google for a station and time.
“…a person with Down Syndrome is structurally incapable of leading a normal, productive life. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are rare and insignificant.”
joan, in my P.S. I responded to your first sentence here, but neglected to respond to your second one.
Even IF the DS children who are capable of leading a normal, productive life WERE rare (which they are not, thanks to medical discoveries in recent decades), they still would not be “insignificant”.
Again, that description strikes me as very COLD. Your attitude is chilling.
No human being is insignificant — not even one. The Lord God loves us all. Though we are ALL riddled with imperfection, He loves us. Which is why He sent the Lord Jesus to take our sin upon Himself, though He WAS (and IS) perfect, that we might become His own children, heirs to all He has for us — now in this life, and throughout eternity.
Christ Jesus said, “He (speaking of Satan) comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I have come that you might have LIFE, and that more abundantly.” John 10
If leading a “normal” life means advocating for the murder of children, I don’t wanna be normal!
And to clarify for Joan: abortion IS murder, ANYONE who advocates for it is promoting murder. It’s very simple. If you were so sure of yourself, you wouldn’t be here, hanging on our responses. Part of you is reaching out, as much as part of you is full of bitterness and doesn’t want to reach out. I pray for your healing.
Mary, I have seen Dr. Jen Arnold (and her husband — love that guy!) on TLC. I knew immediately who you were talking about, in your first post about her. She has scoliosis, has a steel rod in her back, has other limitations as well, but her attitude is very positive, and she is a wonderfully caring, compassionate doctor. Her patients are truly blessed to have her as their doctor.
Sydney, I do know for a fact that OB was not sympathetic of abortion, because he left a practice when they took on a doctor whose wife owned a large abortuary in a large metro area, and who traveled there two or three times each week to commit abortion. This was the first pro-abortion doctor in that practice, and my OB left out of protest (he was not the only one who left, but was the first.).
He told me he was “challenged and blessed” by my attitude because, as he put it, other women in my shoes would have wanted the amniocentesis (I did not) and would have wanted to abort if it were proven the baby had any of those challenges. I realize I should have clarified that earlier. :)
With each of my pregnancies, I made sure my OB not only did not commit abortion but was also pro-life. I know I was very blessed to be able to find OB’s like that.
Truthseeker:
Medical care is ALREADY rationed in this country, so Berwick’s comment doesn’t point to anything new. A large bulk of our country’s medical expenditures goes to research and development of advanced technology that few average citizens could afford, even with great healthcare. Insurance shields people from the costs of care so those with insurance purchase more services (often needless–you have doctors prescribing antibiotics for a person with a viral infection because the provider is trying to reassure the patient that something is being done, when that something is actually ineffective), and the prices of services consequently go up for everybody. People are forced to pick and choose all the time which procedures they can afford and which they must forgo. Since health insurance is sutured to employment, people face job lock for fear of losing their insurance, or if they get laid off, are screwed in terms of health care. At least with the new system there will be a safety net.
This post is also disingenuous. For one, I think it’s horrible to try to force anyone to get an abortion, daughter or wife or surrogate, etc. This woman was rendering a service to a couple, and too bad if it turned out wrong for them–she was rightfully in control.
But situations like this are rare. I’d like to see a real discussion about Down’s Syndrome. Not weird technoscience human-as-commodity stuff, but what happens when a lower middle class woman finds out through amniocentesis that her child will very likely be disabled? It’s easy to take the moral high ground and say “well, she will grow to love this child and he/she will be a blessing.” Okay, maybe, but there could be the very real possibility that this woman does not have the resources to care for a special needs child. I just finished reading Rayna Rapp’s “Testing Women, Testing the Fetus,” and it contains some very poignant interviews with women who opted for prenatal testing and are trying to grapple with the results. This issue can’t simply be characterized as a woman “not wanting to be bothered” by a Down’s Syndrome child, or dismayed that the “future isn’t perfect.” These women, especially those without extensive support networks, must grapple with these questions.
I think about my partner’s clients all the time. My boyfriend works with special needs adults, basically offering direct service. His clients have all sorts of emotional difficulties on top of their intellectual impairment. And their parents are nowhere in the picture. Like, emancipated, gone, ward of the state. They can’t be contacted. The question of whether T or M “should have been aborted” is absolutely moot, because they are living on this earth and deserve care and support. But I always think about their families, that some parents–even the most earnest or well-intentioned– are ill-equipped to deal with a handicapped child. Can you fault a woman for anticipating these difficulties and choosing abortion to prevent from having to face this heartache?
And those with disabilities were also living in their mother’s wombs before birth. And aren’t they deserving of loving care and support? Your point? Of course you are advocating that we kill them so they won’t be a burden, or something.
Of course – the difficulty is that someone’s burden is another person’s gift – and when we start saying that some people are valuable and others are not, then we are all in jeopardy of being another person’s burden …. and that opens the way to abuse in any shape and form.
And from a practical standpoint, most of us are ill-equipped for life’s challenges, disappointments, heartaches and injustices. But that is why we help each other in families, churches and communities and, yes, even governments.
We are more loving, inventive, generous and kind than abortion.
Hi Megan,
I think maybe its time to hear from the ‘inside’. I have a genetic condition called Friedreich’s Ataxia(FA). [It may help in understanding that FA is very close to multiple sclerosis in symptom expression.]
to put it mildly every disabled person I know (and I’ve met literally thousands) cherish the life they do have. [I often wonder if we who are disabled are more prone to suicide? I think not.]
I must admit though, that any disability (whether DS or FA or some other disorder) impacts on others lives (often profoundly). So what to do????????????? run, hide, fret, turn blue, kill ‘the offender’ or grow-up, be BRAVE, LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At least half of the aborted children could have been placed immediately in adoptive homes. A poor mother would not have to kill her child just because she didn’t have the financial means to give him every material advantage in life. Killing people because of poverty is called “Eugenics”.
It’s so interesting that in the 70’s and early 80’s, the feminazi’s cried for abortion because of all the desperate women who would otherwise harm themselves. They used rape as a defense, and all kinds of vague ‘health of the mother’ arguments. But what has happened by 2010, is that abortion advocates are going lower and lower in their defense of child murder. Now, oh the poor parents, the child might be disabled and cost more to raise, or oh the poor mother, this child is a parasite that threatens a few months of her bodily autonomy, or oh, it’s not the right sex, or oh, the mother and her boyfriend got in a fight, or oh, any old reason at all to kill a child. This is where child murder leads: to kill anyone anytime for any reason.
And before some troll posts, “then it’s ok to kill the other half?” No. Once upon a time, there used to be these unusual places for children. They were called orphanages. Now, it is possible to run an orphanage well, but it takes work. Abortionists find it so much quicker and easier to kill the children, so they won’t be such an inconvenience. Abortionists think we shouldn’t dare be pro-life if we don’t personally take in all the children to each of our homes. Well, in that case NO ONE is allowed to be a vegetarian unless they drive down to the nearest factory chicken ranch, round up all the chickens, and take them home. If they are not willing, then they are hypocrites and should not go around telling people about being vegetarian.
Megan,
I’m curious. What does a low income woman do when her healthy normal newborn child is diagnosed with cerebral palsy at one year of age? What does she do if the child becomes autistic? If the child suffers major disability from accident or illness at ten years of age?
Put simply, what guarantees are there ever in life? Are we being sanctamonious when we tell the woman she can’t kill the child that isn’t “perfect” and is a burden?
BTW I think “deinstitutionalization” was a huge mistake and left so many families with no options. Another example of “good intentions” paving the road to hell.
Megan said:
People are forced to pick and choose all the time which procedures they can afford and which they must forgo.
Megan, what I don’t want is bureaucrats making those decisions for us.
Truthseeker, those decisions are already informed by bureaucrats: insurance companise with strong lobbying power. Also, who do you think sat down and created Medicare’s provisions? Certainly not old people themselves.
Ninek: It’s such a pleasure to read the rants of a raving lunatic. Save the children at all costs, even if these children are three weeks out from fertilization. The next time I face a crisis pregnancy I’ll give you a call–maybe you’ll be willing to lend your uterus for an unwanted pregnancy?
Dear Megan (you are dear to the Lord; He loves you), ninek is not a raving lunatic just because his/her thoughts differ from yours. ITA with everything ninek has written, and I’m not a raving lunatic either. I’ve worked in education for 30+ years.
It’s really not about intelligence; I know many intelligent people who can’t grasp the value of babies at any age, pre- or post-birth. It’s all about sensitivity, caring, compassion, and many intelligent people seem to lack those qualities altogether — which, to be honest, is a scary thing because they are in such a position to do great harm (as did Dr. Nathanson until his eyes were opened).
Yes, save the children, yes even one hour after fertilization. Once there is a zygote, the woman is a mother. It’s very simple. It’s called biology. See, humans don’t emerge from spores or hatch from eggs. We’re mammals.
It’s interesting though that a pro-abort who has been such a prolific commenter did not recognize the nutty rationalizations that I mentioned, and thought that I was the nut. My goodness, I still laugh when I think of the “siamese violinist” rationale. I’m not inventing it folks, I’m just calling it like I see it.
It also reveals which pro-aborts are under the age of 30.
Right. This is compassion:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16013/this-should-be-a-choice
People’s bodies can’t be used as a means to an end. The Tuskegee Syphilis study was horrific, but it was carried out in the name of the public good. Let me force the point: it’s quite similar to the pro-life mentality, “spare your body for a moment to let this new human come into being.” Right. But if our bodies aren’t in the domain of our own decision-making, then involuntary medical experiments are totally acceptable. I can think of other scenarios: you have a rare blood type and somebody in your town needs a transfusion or they’ll die–must you donate your blood? Or consider this: our country’s >65 population is growing at a fast rate. Who will sustain them? If an older relative needs a kidney, what prevents a physician from mandating that you donate one of yours?
I’m sorry abortion kills a developing baby–figure out a way to incubate it, funnel more R&D dollars into developing an artificial womb.
Megan said:
Truthseeker, those decisions are already informed by bureaucrats: insurance companise with strong lobbying power.
Megan, When I need surgery (pre-Obamacare) I go to my doctor and if my doctor says I need it then I get it. But now that we have Obamacare; insurance companies will start denying people care based upon new Obamacare standards. . And WTH does ‘informed’ by bureaucrats mean???
Maybe an unplanned pregnancy should be thought through before one makes the “choice” to have sex. Sex can lead to babies!! To a proabort I suppose it will just be one more trip to the mill.
Megan’s 11:23 comment just bordered on the siamese violinist theory, OMG!! She is actually comparing a natural, healthy pregnancy to the tuskegee scandal (which we all agree was an awful, terrible thing!). A healthy, natural pregnancy is the same as that? Wow. I have heard it all, folks.
Note to self: Pro-choicers are losing their already tenuous grip.
One “healthy, natural pregnancy” is someone else’s gestational diabetes, or morning sickness, or end to life as she knows it. Criminalize abortion and you will have more distraught and angry women then your pro-life “counselors” will know what to do with.
Truthseeker:
I think you might be kidding yourself. Insurance companies ALREADY choose which conditions and clients they will underwrite. I’m STILL paying for a bone scan I had two years ago because my insurance company denied my claim. There are powerful people behind the scenes–lobbyists, for one–that work to manipulate the insurance system to get certain procedures covered, or vice versa. Consumers have very little leverage as it is.
Also, in case you haven’t read the Act carefully, health reform won’t create a single payer system. The government will not be underwriting risk; more insurance markets will actually be opening up. Berwick says health care will be “rationed,” which is actually necessary, in the sense that our country spends exorbitant amounts of money on administrative costs and expensive, unnecessary procedures. What is the comparable efficacy of an X-ray or a bone scan for determining fracture? They’re not much different in terms of diagnostics, but one is far more expensive. Expensive technology drives up health care costs for everyone.
Also, the universal mandate will widen the pool to include the healthy twenty and thirty-year olds, so there will be more cash for more procedures. If anything, my generation should be the one complaining, because we won’t be seeing the real returns on this investment until we’re older. Sit back and be quiet because I will be financing your transition into obsoletion.
And of course pro-lifers shift easily between the trope of the “promiscuous woman who chooses to have sex without consequences” and the “poor, vulnerable pre-abort washing up on the CPC doorstep.” Which is it? If a woman is married to a controlling, abusive man, can you claim that every time she has sex it’s a decision made with complete volition?
Oh, but right. Married women never get abortions, or even think about every sexual act being non-procreative. My bad. God open that blessed womb.
How weird you would say “end to life as she knows it” Megan. Thats exactly how babies view abortion. It sucks some women may have to puke for a few months. I did it and had to work full-time feeling constantly ill and nauseated 24/7 but should I have killed my child over it? You’re talking about a woman being uncomfortable for a few MONTHS vs. a child losing his/her entire LIFE.
As a woman you really piss me off because you paint our gender as being SO SELFISH and SO EVIL that we would rather kill our own babies than have to throw up a for a few months or change our plans even a little (cause adoption is always an option…women do NOT have to choose to parent). You may be that evil and selfish Megan but I am not so stop painting all women in that light. Some of us can actually think of other people and not just live going “Wahhhh! ME! ME! ME!” as you obviously do.
...it’s quite similar to the pro-life mentality, “spare your body for a moment to let this new human come into being.”
The new human has already come into being, otherwise there would be no question of “right to life.”
you have a rare blood type and somebody in your town needs a transfusion or they’ll die–must you donate your blood?
First of all, out of compassion, I would hope that if you KNEW you were the only person on whom another’s life depended, and you did not have to risk certain death to enable that person to live, that you WOULD donate your blood. Secondly, not acting to save someone’s life is not the same as deliberately planning the death of another human being and carrying it out. The first makes you a selfish coward and possibly guilty of involuntary manslaughter and the second makes you a first-degree murderer.
I’m sorry abortion kills a developing baby
Oh, really??
–figure out a way to incubate it, funnel more R&D dollars into developing an artificial womb.
Well, amazingly, our bodies were made to reproduce (go figure), so I’m thinking prevention is key. And bottom line, if you aren’t emotionally and physically ready to parent a child, then you aren’t ready for a sexual relationship. Oh, I know, I know, *gasp!*, right? How very archaic and backward of me to remind you that sex leads to procreation. Sex is not just for your own personal gratification whenever and wherever you want it. The problem is, we’ve been taught for so long that pleasure IS the purpose of sex that we’re flabbergasted when an actual LIFE results from something that was supposed to work that way!
Maybe an unplanned pregnancy should be thought through before one makes the “choice” to have sex.
Absolutely! Lots of people seem to forget they have this choice, don’t they? They want to have privileges without responsibilities and freedom to do whatever they like without consequences, but life doesn’t work that way.
And bottom line, if you aren’t emotionally and physically ready to parent a child, then you aren’t ready for a sexual relationship. Oh, I know, I know, *gasp!*, right? How very archaic and backward of me to remind you that sex leads to procreation. Sex is not just for your own personal gratification whenever and wherever you want it. The problem is, we’ve been taught for so long that pleasure IS the purpose of sex that we’re flabbergasted when an actual LIFE results from something that was supposed to work that way!
Well said, Kel — very well said. Your entire post was excellent. Indeed, this is the bottom line.
Pro-aborts: If Planned Parenthood and all the other abortuaries closed, and there were scores of women looking for help to raise their babies, I would shout hooray! Women need help, not murder.
If women are in trouble, why don’t you want to help? Why do you only want to kill her baby and leave her scarred? Why do you hate the womb and babies so much? It’s a wondrous and amazing thing to create new life. We can do it. Abortionists are sick.
Please, Sydney, as if having a child is merely incubating it and then popping it out.
Go say that to the women with permanent C-section scars, women who will probably have to be torn open again if they experience subsequent births. Yep, no big deal, because if women have sex, they should subordinate all interests and desires to an unborn human. Heck, women shouldn’t even be able to use contraception. Heaven forbid that fertilized egg be prevented from attaching to that endometrium.
Yep, pregnancy, no big deal, should just suck it up. So much for arguments based on concern for women’s mental health. I’m sure you’ve read stories of birth mothers in anguish over the decision they made. But no, those stories don’t get a mention in the whole “abortion harms women!!!!!” debate. If a birth mother grieves, well, at least she made a wonderful, selfless decision…
http://cpcwatch.org/Women%27s-Stories.php
Also Kel, there is no difference in outcomes if you fail to donate a kidney to an ailing uncle and I get an abortion, in your book. Still a death regardless of intention or methods, no? I challenge you to create a world without abortion that isn’t straight out of a Margaret Atwood nightmare. You mock, but the people at Tuskegee had the same mentality: use some people’s bodies to further the public good. The men who participated CHOSE to have sex and get syphilis, after all.
Clearly you’re all drinking the mommy koolaid and can’t possibly understand what it would be like NOT to want to be a mother. That’s great, but I can’t think of anything less appealing right now than cleaning up a toddler’s slop, or signing over a child to the care of a stranger. So I prevented all that from happening and got on a more reliable form of birth control. Not grieving yet…
I threw up for 3 months straight with each of my 4 pregnancies. I have stretch marks, varicose veins, scarring and excess weight around the middle. What’s your point, Megs??
SO TOTALLY WORTH IT TO HAVE CHILDREN TO RAISE AND LOVE!!
Any discomfort pales in comparison to the act of watching your own child come into this world. It is called a miracle, Megan.
As though killing your own is a noble deed!!! psssshhhhhhttttt
Personally, I don’t care if someone never wants to have kids. As long as they don’t get pregnant with one and kill him/her, that’s totally fine with me.
Clearly you’re all drinking the mommy koolaid and can’t possibly understand what it would be like NOT to want to be a mother. That’s great, but I can’t think of anything less appealing right now than cleaning up a toddler’s slop, or signing over a child to the care of a stranger. So I prevented all that from happening and got on a more reliable form of birth control. Not grieving yet…
Megan,
I didn’t want to be a mother for the first part of my marriage. For two years we avoided having sexual relations during the time I was most fertile. We were very, very careful, using Natural Family Planning (NFP) and watching the signs from my body. We also prayed and thought long and hard about it.
When we DID decide we were ready to have kids, who chose the most fertile part of my cycle to have relations. PRESTO! Baby.
No, being a mother isn’t easy. It truly isn’t and anyone who says it is doesn’t deal with the day to day worries, concerns and responsibilities that goes with motherhood. However, it has its own rewards. As far as my kid’s concerned, I’m the funniest person alive. My kid has learned how to make up jokes from me and my husband. My kid also gives some of the best hugs ever, and is compassionate when other people are crying. Also my kid is alive–been alive since the moment of conception.
I do know what it’s like not to want to be a mother…because anytime a couple is avoiding having kids for whatever serious reason, they don’t want to be a parent at that time. (Generally its health reasons or family/life difficulties that need to be ironed out before conceiving a child).
Parenthood is one of the hardest best jobs I’ve ever had. But make no mistake, I didn’t make the decision to be a parent lightly. It took a lot of prayer, thought, and considering the timing.
But I didn’t go around having sexual relations willy-nilly without prayer, checking out my chart and talking with my husband about where we are at.
Not everyone is cut out to be a parent, I can accept that–but that doesn’t mean you kill them off. Abortion does just that–kills off the pre-born baby and THAT is what I don’t accept.
Carla
October 10th, 2010 at 8:09 am
I threw up for 3 months straight with each of my 4 pregnancies. I have stretch marks, varicose veins, scarring and excess weight around the middle. What’s your point, Megs??
SO TOTALLY WORTH IT TO HAVE CHILDREN TO RAISE AND LOVE!!
Carla, when I was giving birth a lost a ton of blood. I thought either I was gonna die or need a blood transfusion. I kept worrying about being their for my newborn baby. Luckily none of those things happened. Was it hard and scary? You betcha. Worth it? TOTALLY!
P.S. Not that I want to go through blooding profusely again, but God got me through and I have this sweet kid to show for it and God has helped me through many hard parts of motherhood and the easy parts, too. The hugs from my kid make me forget the harder parts. As well as my kid’s laughter and joy!
Perhaps THE difference between PL and PA is around ‘bravery’ and its necessity for inspiration. Maybe, the American national anthem should end as: ‘… the land of the free and the home of WIMPS (or WHINERS)’?
Truthseeker:
I think you might be kidding yourself.
No I am not Megan,seriously. Our government has raided and bankrupt Medicare; in fact they just stole 500 billion dollars from an insolvent Medicare trust fund to kicksart Obamacare. They raided Social Security which is nearly insolvent. I can’t see how anbody would trust them taking more of our money and staring a third government program to supposedly oversee our health care.
In addition I have had multiple doctor recommended surgerys and none has been denied. And I don’t trust Kathleen Sebelius or any other government agency to oversee/grant MY insurance company the right to deny doctor recommended procedures. I prefer to leave those decisions between me and my doctor. It only legalize insurance companies making a greater number of denials once our bureaucracy gets their dirty mitts into our health care. Question for you Megan. And please amswer it honestly. How come so many Democrats who are supposedly pro-choice be so forceful about putting government getting control of our health care decisions?
Truthseeker, speaking of government control of our health care, one thing many people don’t know is that under PPACA, states can transition to single payer models in 2017. It’s important to keep an eye on your local and state candidates for office, unless you want your elected officials paving the way to launch single payer later this decade.
Megan, Why is it so many Democrats, who are supposedly pro-choice, are adamant about handing government control of our health care decisions?
Truthseeker:
So you cede all authority to your doctor, who’s only in the business for altruistic reasons, right? Providers want to make money, and in our current health care system, they tend to over-prescribe services and treatments so they’ll get bigger reimbursements. Provider-induced demand: it’s plain economics. So you have many, many Americans purchasing services they don’t need because their providers say it’s the best option, or the provider wants to cover his/her behind in regards to torts, so he/she just prescribes everything on the drop-down menu of available hi-tech services.
The government’s role is to reduce waste and improve health care efficiency. I guarantee you will not be denied any medically necessary service, or treatment for acute care. Doctors will, however, have incentives to comply with best practices and offer PROVEN treatment methods with the highest efficacy, with research coming from the government-established Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute. So in the future, if I fracture a bone, I will be offered a diagnostic Xray, and not the more expensive (and invasive) bone scan. I could get the more expensive procedure but there would just be more cost-sharing on my part. Also, under health reform, preventive services will be encouraged, so instead of waiting to get chemo for colorectal cancer, dudes will be given financial incentive to get screened.
Other ways to reduce waste: grant system for state-level tort reform initiatives, information technology standardization, etc. Read through the timeline yourself: http://www.kff.org/healthreform/8060.cfm
Also, I’m not quite sure why you imply that insurance companies are going to be dissolved by the government. The more private plans, the better; the point is to get everybody on a plan.
And about the “choice” issue: What do you think happens when uninsured people show up at hospitals with acute conditions that need immediate treatment? Hospitals are legally mandated to care for them, and the *exorbitant* costs get shifted around and transferred to taxpayers. Taxpayers have no “choice” in this instance. Also, what kind of “choice” do you have now with the presence of huge insurance and pharmaceutical companies? What kind of “choice” do elderly people have who can’t afford the cost of biologic drugs because pharmaceutical company lobbyists fight for extended patents and Medicare barely covers prescription drug costs? And what kind of “choice” do people have who’ve been laid off because of a bad economy and have lost their health insurance? Or what about the thousands and thousands of kids who aren’t currently covered by Medicaid or SCHIP? Do they have a “choice” about what kind of care they get? How many of these kids have the “choice” to even get dental care?
The net choices people have now are false and flimsy. Health care reform creates real options and real choice–to be healthy. It’s a public good, like education. You’re fine with providing a kid with twelve years of public school, but not okay with making sure this kid gets asthma medication? Hello, cognitive dissonance.
Carla:
“I threw up for 3 months straight with each of my 4 pregnancies. I have stretch marks, varicose veins, scarring and excess weight around the middle.”
There’s a difference between elected and forced self-sacrifice. Forgive me, but if abortion were criminalized, what kind of counseling would you offer a woman who didn’t want to put her body through a pregnancy? Some God? Some moralizing? The last I checked, the whole abstinence thing didn’t work out all that well for you. Were you not an autonomous, rational person when you “chose” to have sex and got pregnant that first time? Did the narrative change when you chose abortion–did you suddenly become helpless and lost? Are women capable of choosing to have sex but too pathetic to make decisions about the consequences?
Yep, just suuuuuck it up, for the betterment of yourself and manking. Apropos: I was reading the blog of your chief spokesman from the “scientific community,” the other day. He claimed that the Western world was “aborting itself” with contraception and legalized abortion, and that the growing global “Muslim” population was going to take over the Christian west. The moral: have more babies. Yep, cue Helter Skelter. I’m waiting for the day some wackjob xenophobe gets a hold of this pronatalist piffle and starts raping women to repopulate Christian America. Oh wait, isn’t that the point of Quiverfull wives? And even rape as a war crime??
“Mirsada was released only when she became visibly pregnant, and her
jailer-rapists said, “Go bear our Serbian children.”” http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/sexual-violence.html
This is the product of an ideology that denies women the right to control their bodies and futures in the name of some higher good. Bearing children, furthering the nation-state…it’s all the same bs.
Megan,
You seem to trust the government more than you trust your doctor. In fact you trust the government so much that you would have them taxing the people including the poor so Obamacare can join Social Security and Medicare as a third leg of government guaranteed health care. Do you understand they completely failed with Medicaid and Social Security and both are at or close to insolvency? And you want more of this? Did somebody say cognitive dissonance?
Megan, what percentage of money that was paid into Medicaid actually got used to pay for medical expenses? What percentage went to pay for the bureaucracy and what percent got raided from Medicaid and used for totally unrelated government pork projects? Did somebody say cognitive dissonance?
You Megan are either vested in getting a share of the government dole on this; or you are fiscally insane; I can’t believe anybody could still be so drunk on the Obama hope and change kool-aid (completely naive) that they can’t wait for the over 2000 pages of Obamacare to get implemented so you can see what was in them.
Your x-ray example is ridiculous Megan. You would have me believe that without government oversight then doctors will be prescribing bone scans when xrays would be the better option. Sounds to me like you are personally lacking a good doctor to patient relationship so you think the government should be checking up on doctors. You seem to be asking me to trust you more than my doctor. Sorry but NO. And I DON’T want you forcing us to file all our medical records with the government so they can keep an eye on what our doctors recommend. Especially under the guise of your blatant lie that government involvement will somehow reign in costs. Everybody including even the Obama himself now admits this is going to increase health costs for the average family. And with government cost projections involved you can be sure the real costs three times as high and will drag us further and further into the red. We should be reigning in governement and not growing government. And Obamacare takes it to a whole new level of recklessness by forcing unfunded Medicaid mandates onto the states.
The Democraptic party is like the addicted gambler increasing his credit with one bookie to keep betting with another. Kinda like stealing from Social Security and Medicaid to start Obamacare. Did someone say cognitive dissonance?
Megan said,
“I guarantee you will not be denied any medically necessary service, or treatment for acute care.”
lol, you are a joke and it would be funny except you are trying to destroy the best health care system in the world. Excuse me if I don’t take your “guarantee” as meaning didly squat; It is precisely because of Obamacare that insurance companies have already stopped underwriting policies for children except as part of family plans. How did your guarantee work for them? Oh ya, but under Obamacare they can still go to Planned Parenthood for abortions at any age and that what is really important to ythe liberals anyway. Guarantee…….Why do I feel like I shouldn’t buy your guarantee. Do you speak for all 2000 pages or for the President himself or for Kathleen Sebelius? Ugh
Why would people clamor for tort reform if doctors were infallible?
And no, we have a pretty crappy healthcare system. Ask everybody who’s uninsured. This hybrid informal market system, as it stands, is not working, but I guess we can’t even agree on that. It’s a disjointed system that is badly in need of institutional oversight and streamlining.
There are so many different actors and conflicting objectives. The very concept of health insurance is fraught–insurance is meant to shield people from catastrophic risk, not provide everyday care. Insurance companies want to lower reimbursements, physicians want to claim as much as they can. Fundamental conflict, the root of all our problems. If the government were really smart, they’d make primary care a single-payer system and have people take out tax-exempt health savings accounts to purchase insurance to pay for specialty care.
Medicare costs are rising because the proportion of people with taxable income: elderly who qualify for benefits is decreasing, and people are generally older and sicker than they once were. Not to mention that the general cost of services has skyrocketed and providers practice defensive medicine to prevent from getting their behinds sued…health reform contains provisions for national strategies to improve efficiency and quality of care. Government-funded programs lack mechanisms for evaluation and oversight, and health reform contains provisions for program evaluation and auditing.
The main engine of change, of course, will be the introduction of healthy young people into the general risk pool. We will be financing your health care. WE should be complaining.
“Insurance companies have already stopped underwriting policies for children except as part of family plans”
Um, what other scheme do you propose?
Hi Megs,
You conveniently forgot to copy this part of my comment
IT WAS ALL WORTH IT!! :) Having babies has been one of the most amazing and miraculous things that has every happened to me.
Other than that…..put a sock in it, Megs.
“IT WAS ALL WORTH IT!! Having babies has been one of the most amazing and miraculous things that has every happened to me.”
Um, clearly not for every woman, but their maternal instinct must be defective or something. Some “hope” and “healing”–to imply that women who have sex without intending to procreate are selfish or too career-oriented: “Don’t abort, you’ll LOVE being a mother, and if you don’t, you’re a selfish harlot who shouldn’t have had sex in the first place!” Great.
Yeah.
That is exactly what I meant, Megan. How do you do it? You must be reading my mind.
“Maybe an unplanned pregnancy should be thought through before one makes the “choice” to have sex. Sex can lead to babies!! To a proabort I suppose it will just be one more trip to the mill.”
I’ll let you clarify. So a woman exercises full discretion when she chooses to have sex but is rendered vulnerable, frantic, delusional when the pregnancy test turns up positive?
I don’t know what every pregnant woman is rendered, Megan.
One would think that a 13 year old who finds out she is pregnant would have a different reaction than a 46 year old who has never been pregnant but finds out after years of fertility treatments.
Your point? I dunno.
How bout we move to a more recent thread? Hmmmmm?
Personally, I don’t care if someone never wants to have kids. As long as they don’t get pregnant with one and kill him/her, that’s totally fine with me.
ITA with this, Marauder.
Your words, Carla. Women choose to have sex but can’t, in sound mind, “choose” to have an abortion because they’re too vulnerable and scared. That doesn’t quite line up.
How can anyone of sound mind ‘choose’ to murder anyone?
Hi Claire,
In case you haven’t been following the anti-abortion/pro-choice debate in all its nuances, some women don’t consider the preborn to have attained the status of persons yet. Shock! Not all women seeking abortions at six weeks of pregnancy are thinking, “Gosh, I have a fully-formed person inside of me right now” and working hard to stifle their conscience and maternal instinct. Shocking, I know.
Yeah Megan, some women don’t have a problem with smothering their newborns either. Your point? feelings do not automatically = truth.
Megan, this is why there needs to be much more education* about the fast development of the baby. The average baby’s heart is beating**, and the spine developed, before many women (maybe most) realize they are pregnant.
It’s a real shame that PP and other abortuaries have withheld the truth about this, that they have been so unwilling to allow pregnant women to know the whole truth about their babies, which should include requiring them to view a 3-D ultrasound, before they make such a monumental decision.
As Carol Everett (who once owned a chain of abortuaries and wrote the book Blood Money: Getting Rich Off a Woman’s Right to Choose) pointed out, abortionists are in it for the money. Full disclosure about the baby is not financially profitable for them.
*This education should include required reading of Norma McCorvey’s book Won by Love. McCorvey was ‘Jane Roe’ of Roe v. Wade.
**One major criterion doctors use to determine if a person is alive is whether the heart is beating, or not.