Jivin J’s Life Links 3-10-11
by JivinJ, host of the blog, JivinJehoshaphat
- How do you know an abortionist is lying? He’s moving his mouth.
At Feministe, Clarisse Thorn interviewed abortionist Doug Laube for Abortion Provider Appreciation Day and here’s what she got from their conversation about the times when abortion was illegal:
I hadn’t realized that immediately post-legalization, abortion was a mainstream ob-gyn practice. I did know, however, that abortion was incredibly unsafe when it was illegal.
Dr. Laube provided some gruesome insights: pre-legalization, there were entire wards in some inner-city hospitals that were dedicated to women who had received illegal abortions, because so many women came in suffering complications. Of the women who populated those wards, 50% died. As Dr. Laube put it, “It was a matter of necessary service to bypass all that.”
- How do you know you need to find a better man? You marry the guy who tried to kill your unborn child without your consent.
Orbin Tercero has been sentenced to 4.5 months to 2 years in jail after killing his unborn child by giving abortion drugs to his girlfriend:
In February 2010, police said Tercero gave his then-pregnant girlfriend, Amy, who is now his wife, a drug called misoprostol without her consent, causing her to have a miscarriage.
He was originally charged with murder of an unborn child, tampering with evidence, and aggravated assault of an unborn child.
He plead guilty to lesser charges in court in January.
Tercero’s Attorney Joe Joch was pleased with the sentence. He said the sentence did justice to all parties.
Judge Jeffrey Smith said the sentence would allow Tercero to see his son, who is in 7th grade, and his unborn child.
Yes, exactly 50% (that statistic doesn’t sound made up at all) of the women who filled multiple inner-city hospital wards died from illegal abortions. This despite the fact that the CDC only records 39 deaths from illegal abortions in 1972.
Why do some pro-choicers continue to believe such ridiculous attempts at myth making? Are they really that gullible? Or is it just anathema to call an abortionist out on his/her obvious lies?
Let’s hope he doesn’t try to kill this one.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Is anyone else wondering why this woman would actually marry this creep???
What I’m confused about is this: abortion is legal, so technically speaking him giving his girlfriend abortion pills is within legality. So what? If she had said, “Oh yes, give me the pills.” He wouldn’t be charged with death of an unborn, but since he didn’t ask he is being charged? (Not that I condone what he did, NOT AT ALL, but I just don’t understand the situation).
Okay so consent is the factor in determining if an abortion is legal or not? Then how come people aren’t charged with death of an unborn for the abortions that are coecered?
How come when a woman says she feels like she was forced into the abortion that nobody on the pro-choice side says the person who forced them should be arrested?
If consent is the difference, then what about the girls who say their parents forced them to get an abortion?
Very good questions Mother in Texas!
I cannot understand what is going through her mind to marry this guy and to make him a father AGAIN!
And what was HIS reasoning if he married the woman and impregnated her again within months of killing the other baby? INSANITY!
I love Mother-in-Texas’s questions! The “logic” of abortion as a right always eventually breaks down under questioning, doesn’t it?
I think the abortionist is saying that 50% of women in wards for illegal abortion complications died, not 50% of women in all the wards. Be that as it may, the reason abortion became a “a mainstream ob-gyn practice” immediately after legalization was because most illegal abortions were performed by physicians (usually after hours, by the back door — hence the term “back alley”). After legalization, they could ply their trade legally, without fear of an automatic police investigation if they injured or killed a woman. Further, legalization has made women more vulnerable to pressure or coercion to abort: if it’s legal, it must be safe and moral, so what’s the big deal? Legalization has, if anything, increased the harm to women, not lessened it.
Not to shamelessly self-plug, but we just posted an article on this here: http://afterabortion.org/2011/the-truth-about-back-alley-abortions/
Aren’t prolife people FOR parental consent and notification laws, precisely because parents have a role, in fact, should have the decision-making power: ie, that girls should need their permission to have an abortion? I’m just trying to get a clarification. Because if the parents have to give permission for the girl to get an abortion, because she’s a minor, then it isn’t coercion for them to decide for her to have an abortion – it’s them practicing their parental rights to make decisions for their minor child.
Again – I’m clarifying viewpoints here. If they have parental control in all areas (and I’m not arguing one way or another!) then they should also have parental control in an abortion decision, even if it’s to decide that what is best for her is to have an abortion.
Real pro-life people are not “FOR” parental consent or notification laws at all–they want abortion to be stopped altogether. Not all states require parental permission for abortion–the key word being “permission.” The “choice” is still the girl’s, which is different from parents forcing her to have one. That’s the internal “logic” and “morality” of it, I think. In any case, the real question is, what is being chosen, permitted, or forced? The killing of an unborn baby. There is no logic or morality to that no matter how you frame it.
Kat, in most states it is illegal to force or coerce an abortion, regardless of age. But abortion advocates intentionally and willfully will NOT act to stop force or coersion because they believe that it will undo abortion altogether. The way they turned an intentional blind eye to Gosnell is exactly part and parcel of how and why they turn a blind eye to force.
Not only that, but consider this: is a forced or coerced abortion like a rape? Yes, it most certainly is. After such an intimate and invasive assault, are many women unlikely to press charges? Absolutely. They do not want to relive the experience and they do not want to be traumatized again, and certainly do not want to expose themselves to the trauma and humiliation of legal defeat when they lose their case and watch the abortionist and the other people (often family members or the baby’s father) get away with murder.
Now, back to 50%: Bernard Nathanson admitted verbally, and in print (two books) that the pre Roe v Wade back alley abortions and deaths statistics were MADE UP. Not only has his own confession failed to bring out honesty among the abortionists, this 50% number is also NOT going to be refuted by abortion advocates themselves.
Be of good courage: young people are literally sick to death of abortion. We are all sick to death of it. Abortion’s days are numbered, its days are few. Press on.
Be that as it may, the reason abortion became a “a mainstream ob-gyn practice” immediately after legalization was because most illegal abortions were performed by physicians (usually after hours, by the back door — hence the term “back alley”).
I remember a relative of mine having an abortion pre-Roe. She was sitting by the toilet getting sick and crying. I remember asking what was going on, then by told that she had to go to “a doctor” to have “an operation.” It wasn’t until years later that I found out the truth.
@Kat: Actually, no that doesn’t hold up. There are lots of things that minors can’t do without parental consent that they can’t be forced to do against their own will, even if their parents do consent. Participate in medical/psychological studies, is one example that comes to mind.
So, no. Arguing that a minor needs parental consent to obtain an abortion does not imply that parental consent to an abortion can overrule the minor’s objections.
Also, what Alice PA said.
So the main point here is that numerous women will have abortions whether its legal or not. It’s just that its much, much safer when it is legal.
That ‘man’ is a noxious creep. Its the woman’s body, its her choice, not his.
That ‘man’ is a noxious creep.
Well, I’m glad we can agree on something! ;-)
Abortion is NOT safer now that it’s more legal. A day before Roe v Wade, pre-natal homicide was being done legally in some states and counties, illegally in others. A day after Roe v Wade, the exact same practioners of pre-natal homicide simply hung out their shingle and took out ads in the yellow pages. NOTHING CHANGED.
Abortion is NOT safe for developing children, 99.999% of whom die in the procedure.
I used to buy into that BS about keeping it legal so women wouldn’t hurt themselves. No more. Abortion needs to be outlawed immediately. I no longer believe we should protect parents who’s desire is to kill their children. If abortion had not been legal, my child would be alive today. I would never have risked my own life; my doctor lied to me about the legality of abortion concerning my child’s gestational age, about the development of my child, and about the safety of the procedure. I would not have tried to harm myself or my child. I would not have had an abortion if I hadn’t been hard-sold on the procedure by a medical professional that I mistakenly thought I could trust.
Remember the old days, when people drank water when they were thirsty? How did the soft drink companies change all that? Why do so many people drink soft drinks instead of water? Marketing. Why was abortion unthinkable a century ago, but commonplace today? Marketing.
@Reality: No, the main point is that abortion kills innocent human beings and that’s wrong no matter how safe or dangerous it is.
Why was he not charged with a crime against the woman for giving her a drug (and in effect, an abortion) without her consent? He is only being charged with crimes against the fetus.
“abortion kills innocent human beings” – bzzt, fail! Not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it. And even some of them don’t quite see it like that when they find themselves in a ‘awkward’ spot.
I agree with you ‘thecranium’.
“Not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it.”
Is this considered to be evidence to back up the assertion that it is a fail that abortion kills an innocent human being?
Be glad, Cranium and Reality: your mothers chose life!
Polls show the number of Americans who identify as pro-life are increasing and your teammates are decreasing. You and your allies are shrinking. Young people are increasingly pro-life. Today the mainstream media seems to be on your side, but that is changing faster than you will like to admit.
Abortion is treason agains the human species. Abortion is not only murder, it is genocide.
Indeed, I am glad my mother had a choice. Still, you did not respond to my question. Why has a man who gave a woman a drug without her knowledge or consent–causing her body to undergo changes she did not want or expect–only being charged with a crime against a fetus? And why has no one here expressed outrage on HER behalf?
“Reality” — Just because you and many others refuse to see it doesn’t make it untrue. Science sees it. And many a woman who has an abortion (because she believes she has no other choice, is coerced or forced, or has simply been brainwashed) sees it too, which is why so many woman are devastated afterward (sometimes soon, sometimes late). Denial is what it is: the refusal (whether conscious or unconscious) to see the truth. Abortion is what it is: the killing of an innocent human being. Period. No matter what else anyone calls it, for whatever reason. Period.
That’s a good question, thecranium. Perhaps she didn’t want to press charges against the criminal she decided to marry.
“abortion kills innocent human beings” – bzzt, fail! Not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it.
Is a human fetus/embryo human? (And if not, please tell me what species it is.) Does abortion end the life of that developing embryo/fetus? Is not “killing” the ending of a life?
thecranium ~ The original charges against Mr. Tercero included aggravated assault against the woman in addition to first-degree murder of an unborn child, as well as several other charges (Google it). Also, the woman herself apparently was not outraged enough. She eventually married the man and they have another unborn child. She must be a very wounded woman to have remained in such a relationship. I am outraged that no one helped her to get away from him. I am outraged at whoever in her life contributed to damaging her so much that she would continue a relationship with such a man.
Is anyone else wondering why this woman would actually marry this creep???
It’s called traumatic bonding.
http://victimsofpsychopaths.wordpress.com/traumatic-bonding/
A judge allowing this psycho visitation with the children is not helping this women heal and keep a distance from him. Hopefully, he will only be allowed limited supervised visitation but from my experience, he will probably be given full rights to the children.
Another example of how abortion has further victimized women and children.
Bobby, you state that “abortion kills an innocent human being” as fact when it isn’t.
ninek, under the auspices of your propaganda driven campaign it is logical that people will see, listen and respond to such vociferous spoutings. They will often state that they agree, even if they really really don’t. Then when they face the matter on a personal level, they choose what they feel is the best choice for them. Maybe you and your ilk will get abortion defunded, banned, outlawed or whatever in some or even many jurisdictions. But guess what, abortions will still take place in large numbers. Everyone decries drink-driving yet how many people will tell themselves “oo, I might be right on the limit, but it’ll be ok” and then drive home.
And if my mother hadn’t chosen life? What then? A devastating physical and emotional impact on…..um, something which has never existed?
“Abortion is treason agains the human species. Abortion is not only murder, it is genocide” – yeah right. You simply make yourself look more emotional than intellectual.
What’s science got to do with it AlicePA? Same in response to your question Kelperson. That’s not the basis on which people make decisions when faced with an emergent situation.
Denial is what it is: the refusal (whether conscious or unconscious) to see reality.
Personally I am outraged that a man took a woman’s reproduction into his own hands against her will. I am outraged if a man forces a woman to get an abortion and if a man (or group of men) prevents her from getting one.
thecranium,
We ARE outraged on her behalf! Who in the world said we weren’t?! As pro-lifers, we’re against abortion because it hurts everyone! It kills unborn children, it hurts women, men, family members, etc. Abortion hurts everyone it touches!
Reality,
Abortion DOES kill an innocent human being.
Innocent: The unborn have not hurt anyone. They have not done anything to warrant anyone’s hate. They are there because people claim that they cannot exercise self-control. Natural Family Planning works better than contraception, even for those with irregular cycles. It would only require a couple of days abstinence each month. If you need details about the research on NFP, the USCCB keeps an archive of the studies and their findings here: http://www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/cmr.shtml
Human being: Louis Pasteur’s Law of Biogenesis says that life comes only from preceding life, and perpetuates itself by reproducing only its own kind or type. Therefore, human beings can only produce human beings. Therefore, an unborn child is a human being. They cannot be anything but human. To be otherwise would be physically impossible.
As for my use of the word “child” to describe the unborn, Merriam-Webster’s Medical Dictionary states that the definition of the word child is, “An unborn or recently born person.” The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary states that one definition of a child is, “An unborn infant; a fetus.” Therefore, using the word “child” to refer to one who is unborn is appropriate, even by medical standards.
Yes, medical science is on the side of pro-life.
Reality,
I wrote:
“(Quoting reality): Not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it.”
Me: Is this considered to be evidence to back up the assertion that it is a fail that abortion kills an innocent human being?
You replied:
“Bobby, you state that “abortion kills an innocent human being” as fact when it isn’t.”
This does not in any way, shape, or form address the question I asked.
What’s science got to do with it AlicePA? Same in response to your question Kelperson. That’s not the basis on which people make decisions when faced with an emergent situation.
“Kelperson?” Okay, then. :D
You have stated that abortion does not kill a human. Science has EVERYTHING to do with it. What, then, is the unborn? Whether or not people make decisions based on science or based on the pure emotional response to their situation doesn’t make any difference. Abortion still kills a human.
I don’t understand why you are claiming this, when the unborn are easily shown to be members of the human species. If you’re going to support abortion, at least support it honestly. Admit that you believe the unborn human’s rights are trumped by the rights of the mother. Otherwise, you just look like you’re in a state of deep, disturbing denial.
Again, your comments provide great opportunities to continue to address your misconceptions (whether they are willful or innocent ignorance).
The sciences of embryology and genetics reveal that a so-called zygote, embryo, and fetus are human beings. The technology of ultrasound reveals that the resident of the human womb is another human being, separate from the mother. Very simple and straightforward. The only thing that would get in the way of seeing the simplicity of this truth is an emotional reason.
I had an abortion when I was 29 and my unborn child was just about seven weeks old. It was my first pregnancy. If I had been told the scientific truth about my child, shown photos and ultrasound, and offered support, I would today be the mother of a 23-year-old. Instead I let him be painfully ripped from me. After I eventually married I found I was unable to become pregnant because of the abortion.
It is people who think like you, thecranium et al., who lied to me (whether they knew it or not) and told me it would be no big deal. Instead it was the deal-breaker as far as my ability (and desire) to experience pregnancy and motherhood. It caused great harm to my life in other ways as well. It’s all lies, guys. I hope and pray that eventually you will realize that, for your own sake as well as for the sake of anyone (mother or child) whose life may be aborted because of your inability or refusal to see life for what it is.
The only thing that would get in the way of seeing the simplicity of this truth is an emotional reason.
Bingo.
“That’s not the basis on which people make decisions when faced with an emergent situation.” No big or profound revelation there. People do all kinds of horrible, wrong things on the basis of emotion. We have murder laws and theft laws, etc. No, they don’t stop some people. But they clarify what’s right and wrong. So what’s your point?
Oh yeah Reality?
Well how else can you look at abortion besides the taking of an innocent human life? What else could you call it? And how a person may react to being in an ‘awkward spot’ is irrelevent because that doesn’t change the objective truth of what abortion is.
Blinkers off people! I didn’t dispute the ‘science’, I said it has no great impact on peoples choice when faced with a decision. Nor does it ‘intrude’ heavily into the thoughst and opinions of most people in relation to abortion.
99% of you folk decided abortion is wrong and then looked around for ‘evidence’ and ‘science’ in an attempt to support and justify your position. Good for you! Pity it has minimal impact on people who find themselves with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy. They’ll do what’s best for them thanks.
Amy R. –
NFP may work ok for catholics and a few others for medical reasons but it will never beat ever-improving forms of contraception.
Nice little leap of logic on Louis Pasteur’s theory. Big deal.
And there are numerous dictionaries which don’t include fetuses in their definition of ‘baby’. So what.
Because Bobby, your question is not valid.
Kelperson just to reiterate, to a woman with an unwanted pregnancy the science means diddly-squat.
“Admit that you believe the unborn human’s rights are trumped by the rights of the mother” – absolutely! It doesn’t matter if you call it ‘a clump of cells’, a ‘zygote’, a ‘fetus’, an ‘unborn child’, ‘human being’ or child’. It’s an unwanted developing human inside a womans body and if she doesn’t want it there, out it comes.
Alice PA – that’s just more meaningless words which have no effect on that unexpectedly pregnant college student with a bright future, or the woman with 3 screaming kids already around her ankles. – and the law has clarified abortion as right.
The only thing that would get in the way of seeing the simplicity of this reality is an emotional reason.
Bingo. – Double Bingo!
A fetus is a human. And? Do born humans have the legal right to use other people’s bodies against their will? It’s a life, but so is a flower. So is a fish.
I do believe a woman’s life is more important than a fertilized egg’s, zygote’s, fetus’ life. I do not believe the creature’s species tells us anything objective about its right to live. A fetus does not have the sentience of a born pig, horse, rat, or–of course–person. That is NOT meant to degrade the fetus. I think repeating that “it’s human” (as though it’s species indicates anything important) degrades all animals (including humans). I don’t care about an animal’s humanity or lack thereof. I care if it is sentient, and if its survival depends on the sacrifice of another, specific individual’s, body.
“Because Bobby, your question is not valid.”
Haha. Okay, I can clearly see that you have no interest in any kind of rational discussion.
“more meaningless words which have no effect on that unexpectedly pregnant college student with a bright future, or the woman with 3 screaming kids already around her ankles” — Meaninglessness is in the mind and heart of the hearer. If you find my words meaningless, that is not the fault of my words but the fault of the filters you are using to receive them. I know many a woman who when she was in college became “unexpectedly pregnant” and allowed her child to live, and found her future brighter than she ever imagined it could have been, because she accepted the truth as well as the support offered to her. I also know women who made the opposite decision in the same situation (because they were told and believed the sort of lies you tell) and found their futures darker than they ever imagined they could be. So, dear “reality,” it seems to me that you have a very distorted point of view based on limited experience, and a whole lot of anger over who knows what. Perhaps you should try reading different sources of information and meeting a broader range of people. That would expand your view of reality immensely, I am certain. And maybe even make you a happier person.
Ask a rational and unloaded question then Bobby.
You get worse Alice PA! A couple of personal scenarios doesn’t change the fact that the vast majorty of women who have abortions continue their lives happy with the choice they’ve made and are freer to pursue whatever they want in life. I assure you my experience isn’t limited, nor is my access to a variety of information and a large number of people. Indeed, fresh ones every day.
Again with the droplets attempting to paint me as someone with ‘anger’, a ‘bad experience’ or some other sort of negatively impacting life experience that’s caused me to support womens free choice. Gees if I was much happier my face would split! Get over yourself!
So then, abortion advocates must not really believe in abortion. They must only be saying that in order to seem agreeable to someone else. Riiiiight.
You just keep grasping at those straws. Abortion advocates are becoming obsolete. You are yesterday’s news. When Roe v Wade is overturned, it will absolutely reduce abortions, tremendously. Poor ole poor choicers, you’re so emotional. Or should I say, emo. Lol!!
I remain unconvinced, “Reality.” Anger coats your every word. Been there. Done that. I know how it works from the inside, and I am grateful beyond articulation for those who loved me out of it. I hope and pray that you get there too. Peace be with you and good night.
This seems like a good moment to start work on a “Realityspeak”-to-English translation.
Blinkers off people!
Look at mee! I R TEH SNARKY & CLEVER!!!
I didn’t dispute the ‘science’…
I admit you are all actually correct in every possible way…
…I said it has no great impact on peoples choice when faced with a decision.
…I just don’t really care enough that I am wrong to stop being wrong.
Nor does it ‘intrude’ heavily into the thoughst and opinions of most people in relation to abortion.
Reality is inconvenient. I prefer to reject it and live in a fantasy land where I can just make things up as I go along and call that “real.”
99% of you folk decided abortion is wrong and then looked around for ‘evidence’ and ‘science’ in an attempt to support and justify your position.
Now, having admitted my own confirmation bias, I’m going to project it onto everyone I disagree with. Because if I say “NO U!” enough times, I may actually convince myself.
Good for you!
Look, Ma! MOAR SNARK!
Pity it has minimal impact on people who find themselves with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy.
It’s like I told you: WE ARE THE BORG. FACTS ARE IRRELEVANT.
They’ll do what’s best for them thanks.
Everybody in my echo chamber thinks you’re all idiots, so that must mean we’re right.
…*le sigh*
That must be a fine steed you have beneath you Alice. You’ve leapt straight over the point and into the quagmire the other side. Your attempts at irrelevant and out of context responses are mildly entertaing and slightly short of amusing. They just aren’t funny enough to elicit a titter.
Alice PA, then remain unconvinced. If you need to believe that I suffer from the sort of ‘oh woe is me, look what I did in the past’ self-resentment that so many others here display, go ahead.
Well that may possibly occur ninek. And that would be another item we can tick off on the list of factors which makes the USA look like some sort of pathetic shadow to the rest of the civilized western world, along with healthcare, welfare, the ‘war on drugs’ etc. Shed a tear.
*pops popcorn* Will love to see how this all turns out. You guys are great, LOL!
When a doctor kills a fetus it’s “taking innocent life,” when the army kills a fetus, the woman carrying it, and born children, it’s “collateral damage.” Especially if they are brown people who don’t practice Christianity. Whoops.
Overturning Roe v. Wade might reduce abortions (although countries like Sweden with legal and widely available abortion and comprehensive sex ed and subsidized health care have rates that pale in comparison to our own), but it will increase suffering of women and children. Men too, I guess. I don’t really consider the streets overflowing with malnourished, undereducated, unemployed beggars an exciting prospect but we are well on our way.
sorry, reality, but biology confirms that human women become pregnant with human beings. I’ve never heard of a human being giving birth to ANY of the following: dogs. cats, rabbits, whales, dolphins or other mammals.
Humans beget humans. They don’t beget anything else.
Reality bites. Fortunately, she’s toothless.
Oh, and thecranium, is empty too – of decency.
“When a doctor kills a fetus it’s “taking innocent life,” when the army kills a fetus, the woman carrying it, and born children, it’s “collateral damage.” Especially if they are brown people who don’t practice Christianity. Whoops.”
Touche.
I could set my watch by the abortion fans:
Abortion good.
Religion bad.
Kill baby good.
Kill adult bad.
Oops. I think Megan forgot a letter. She did mean that thecranium’s comment was “touched in the head”, right?
thecranium says:
March 10, 2011 at 11:03 pm
When a doctor kills a fetus it’s “taking innocent life,” when the army kills a fetus, the woman carrying it, and born children, it’s “collateral damage.” Especially if they are brown people who don’t practice Christianity. Whoops.
That’s a strawman argument: No one ever said that!
We’re pro-life! Everyone has the right to life! No one’s life should be taken unless they harm or are a genuine threat to the life of someone else. To kill or otherwise harm others based on their race, ethnicity, colour, religion, creed, orientation, gender, age, mental state, size, ability, etc. is evil. Pro-life means being pro-life. If there is a genuine threat, and no other option, then defense is acceptable. However, to kill someone based on a prejudice is wrong, and should never happen. To place the unjust war on the shoulders of pro-lifers just shows how little you know about us.
Reality wrote:
A couple of personal scenarios doesn’t change the fact that the vast majorty of women who have abortions continue their lives happy with the choice they’ve made and are freer to pursue whatever they want in life.
Try telling that to these, these, these, or these women. Try shaming them and telling them they should move with their lives & should be happy to have had that choice or isolating them by telling them their very real experiences and feelings are meaningless because someone else had a different experience. These are all things you and other pro-choicers have done and said, which only further hurt these and other women and prevents them from finding healing or closure, not to mention does a disservice to the “pro-women, pro-choice cause” because you come off as uncaring and callous towards women once they’ve had an abortion.
Wow.
I wish that I could join in this discussion but unfortunately it is in the wee hours of the morning here, and I need to get to bed. I have an algebra exam to fail tomorrow.
Join you all later. :)
OK, I will try this once more, Reality, assuming you really are interested in discussing. You quoted someone who said:
““abortion kills innocent human beings”
Your response was:
“bzzt, fail! Not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it.”
I am curious as to whether or not you consider your second sentence as evidence to back up your assertion. This is simply a question of clarification. I am wondering if the second sentence is related to the first or not. Because I am quite honestly confused as to what pro-lifers are supposed to take away from your “not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it” sentence. Is that sentence supposed to convince us that abortion does not kill an innocent human being? Why should anyone be compelled by that sentence?
You have an extermly large burden of proof to try and claim that a question of clarification is not “valid” or “rational” or is “loaded.” I did the best I could to try and interpret what you wrote, and it is quite terse and seemingly unrelated to the pro-life quote, so I am doing my best to try and figure out what you are trying to say. If you are unwilling to clarify, than I can only assume that you are not here to discuss anything rationally.
I guess Tercero’s wife is one of those submissive leftie gurls.
My computer won’t let me copy and paste right now (I don’t know why, it’s tempramental). But I want to address NFP (Reality said it might work for Catholics but it will never take the place of contraception…–something to that effect anyway).
Catholics are NOT the only ones practicing NFP. I know a couple who are BAPTIST who TEACH NFP. Plus there’s other non-Catholics who practice NFP (I don’t know the ratios, I never asked, but I have heard of non-Catholics learning and practicing NFP with success).
NFP (when used PROPERLY…which is the same thing contraceptive companies say about their products) it is upwards of 98-99 percent effective (to achieve OR avoid pregnancy). Contraceptives only work ONE way: the way artificial hormones are engineered. They don’t work WITH the body or with the woman’s natural cycle, they work only the way the people who made them engineer them. NFP on the other hand, uses a woman’s cycle and fertility signs to determine when she is most and least fertile. Those who pay close attention to their charts are able to figure these things out (with proper instruction and in many instances people are NOT getting proper instruction with contraceptives or ignoring some of the instructions or not told everything). For about 8 years I’ve been charting. I’m not the greatest at charting, but my husband and I are extremely careful to watch the charts, my signs, use previous information (from previous charts) and have, with success achieved AND avoided pregnancy.
Most couples that experience a “surprise pregnancy” while charting with NFP usually can figure out (or with the help of an NFP teacher) what went on that they got pregnant. Very RARELY is it ever hard to figure out.
ALso, with NFP charting it’s possible for a woman to find out about problems (or potential problems) before they get worse. Cases in point:
My sister used her NFP chart to determine something was wrong. She went to the doc who discovered she was in the early stages of breast cancer. The doc said “Nobody finds out THIS early!” She’s been in remission for years. She wouldn’t have known as early as she did if it wasn’t for her NFP chart and noticing something wasn’t right.
My charts were being funky and I figured it was because of my bad sleep schedule and not taking my vitamins. I talked to my doctor (who has been trained in NFP–some doctors and OB/GYNS are, there is a site to find NFP doctors) turned out some hormone levels were off (my pro-lactin levels). I got tested, was told some things to do and things got better. I got to get back on my vitamins and get another test done to see how the levels are, but if it wasn’t for my chart I wouldn’t have known anything was up really.
These are just 2 instances off the top of my head of how NFP helped in OTHER areas (not just achieving or avoiding pregnancy).
Reality, like I said, not JUST Catholics use NFP and until you’ve tried it for yourself I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it.
I know plenty of people who had a ton of problems when on artificial contraceptives. When they got them out of their systems and used NFP they were happier, and things were a lot clearer for them. (One NFP teaching couple I know had that problem–the woman took birth control pills, then got off them and got them out of her system. Her husband said her moods improved when she got off of the birth control pills and they were a lot happier and had a better marriage once that happened and once they started learning NFP. Now they teach NFP).
The few cases I’ve heard of problems with NFP were usually because of one or more of the following: A. there’s an underlying problem that may or may not need medical attention / B. They don’t chart regularly / C. They misread their charts and don’t ask for help.
I think it’s safe to say that the millions of women who suffer physically, emotionally, etc. after an abortion are the “collateral damage” of the war against the innocent unborn. They/we are cast aside, denied, and ridiculed by those who are trying to protect the abortion industry and/or protect themselves from their own consciences.
Mother in Texas: Thanks for sharing all that about NFP. After I was married and wanted so much to get pregnant again, I took an NFP class taught by a completely non-religious woman in her home. It was keeping and paying attention to those charts that led to learning that no matter what we did or when, I was just not capable of sustaining a pregnancy, because of the abortion. What you’ve written is also a perfect example (the tip of the iceberg really) that there is a whole huge world of experience out there that is ignored and disdained by those who still have the “pro-choice” mind-set.
I understand why and how people embrace and get trapped in such a mind-set. We probably won’t change the minds of most of those who argue that mind-set most vehemently here–but it’s good practice, and one never knows who might be listening in and be helped in the process. There are also lots of stories out there of amazing transformations, of pro-choice people finally breaking free and choosing the truth about life. It’s very scary to take that step. You risk losing friends, family, even your job. We should practice compassion and pray for all such people. There but for the grace of God….
Mother in Texas, are you Catholic?
I am Baptist and I will tell you that I have read a LOT on NFP and LOVE IT! It is so PRO-WOMAN! I will never take hormonal bc again! It attacks my body and damages it.
My husband (who is not Baptist, fyi) insists on barrier method of BC and it is hurting our marriage! So I am saying to anyone who will listen that NFP is a wonderful, NATURAL way to space children to your liking and it does not make your wife feel like a whore and it does not attack her body. Everyone should jump on board the NFP wagon! We care so much about the environment that we recycle and “go green” yet we ingest synthetic hormones that hurt our bodies and leech into the environment and hurt fragile ecosystems. Are liberals just hypocrites or what?
Regarding the law “clarifying” abortion as a right — It used to be illegal for women to vote, yet I doubt there’s a pro-choice woman (or man) alive today who would argue that laws against women voting were just. So the fact that a law allows or disallows something doesn’t make it right. Roe v. Wade is not even a law. It is a court precedent, and a wishy-washy one at that.
Roe v Wade was a judicial atrocity.
Coming out as anti-choice is a risk to your job? Where? REFUSING to do your job (at a pharmacy, for instance) isn’t even a threat to your job if you are anti-choice. If your side is so large and pro-choicers’ numbers pale in comparison, why would simply changing your mind to the anti-choice side be a risk to your job? Unless of course you spend your work hours yapping about sluts and emailing pictures of bloody stillborns to your co-workers, in which case, you should lose your job.
Sydney M.,
To answer your question, yes, I am Catholic (devout and practicing). My husband is also a Catholic, but for awhile (before he met me) he wasn’t real devout/practicing. We met when he was coming back to the Church. Through conversation, my dad talking to him and the Holy Spirit, my husband is never way more devout than he was and he’s completely on board with NFP and very pro-life (in fact, more so now than even when we got married). He also is very supportive of me. He’s also a very involved father. I have a part-time job that doesn’t interfere with me being a mom or anything else I do in my life. (God has rendered some amazing changes and growth in my husband and me–it’s amazing to see the differences between when we first married and now).
NFP (as you know) is a real lesson in how one’s body works.
Everyone I talked to who went from being on some form of contraception to practicing strictly NFP has told me how much better their health and marriages are. I hope your husband gets fully on board one day. It’s a shame he’s forcing the barrier method. I’ve been praying for you all and I will continue to do so. Maybe one day he’ll give it up and trust NFP. It’s hard for people to let go of what they know. Change is never easy, but I’ve learned that with God’s help we can change and grow. I hope this for your husband.
“Coming out as anti-choice is a risk to your job? Where? REFUSING to do your job (at a pharmacy, for instance) isn’t even a threat to your job if you are anti-choice. ”
Anti-choice? Is that a new term for the pro-abortion side? ;) It’s very fitting. If a child is murdered in the womb he/she never gets the right to choose anything.
“Unless of course you spend your work hours yapping about sluts…..”
Thank you for so beautifully illustrating the pro-abortion side’s utter lack of respect for women.
Well I must say how incredibly impressed I am by the sheer ability of some of you people to demonstrate amazing feats of gymnastic contortions in your reading, comprehension and response abilities to what is being said. I think you could build a dining suite out of a tooth pick! The only problem is, what you see as a beautifully constructed and crafted dining suite is in actuality a small, rickety stool which you unsteadily attempt to stand on and preach your little quibbles from.
Rachael C., I did not say that the comparatively small percentage of women who decide their abortion experiences were bad should be shamed or “move with their lives & should be happy to have had that choice” or isolate them by telling them “their very real experiences and feelings are meaningless because someone else had a different experience”. It would appear you read my words ‘creatively’.
“Is that sentence supposed to convince us that abortion does not kill an innocent human being?” – no Bobby, it’s not. Can you not understand “thats not how anyone other than anti-choicers see it”? Have you not been able to comprehend that I keep saying that it’s not all about science or facts, that’s not how people deal with or decide on abortion. Your question was worded in a way which attempted to limit any response to a range which suited you.
Mother in Texas, I did not say that only catholics practice NFP. Go back and read it again if you need to. And yes NFP works really well, when it’s adhered to. But apart from those who are ‘devout’ or ‘devoted’ in some way it isn’t quite so successful. It’s like giving the pill to someone who’s extremely absent-minded. Oops! You yourself give us some good reasons why it fails.
“Millions” Alice PA? Really?
Yes, laws against women voting were unjust. So were laws against abortion.
Never heard of tubal ligation or (now reversable) vasectomies Sydney M? How does a barrier method hurt your marriage?
“it does not make your wife feel like a whore” – where does that come from?!?
“It’s like giving the pill to someone who’s extremely absent-minded. Oops! You yourself give us some good reasons why it fails.”
Finally! An abortion fan admitting to Planned P’s favorite marketing ploy: give low dose pills to teenage girls, deliberately omit to tell them that they need to take them at the same time every day, go further and tell them if they miss a day or two they can make it up when they remember by taking several pills at once, and voila! A pregnant teenager who “needs” an abortion from the very same facility that set her up in the first place. How refreshing! Usually you abortion fans deny this tactic, so I’m glad to see you own up to it.
Also, tubal ligation is pretty permanent. Even if a woman coughs up the thousands of dollars it takes to reverse it, her chances of ectopic pregnancy increase dramatically. Sydney does not wish to be sterile, but I guess you were reading her posts ‘creatively.’ NPF isn’t a religious discipline, it’s a natural way to chart one’s fertility in order to increase the chance of conception or decrease it, depending on the couple’s preference. Any atheist in the world can use it, too. It’s green and healthy.
Funny how abortion fans always have to knock religion when they run out of arguments. I changed my entire outlook from pro-choice to pro-life without any concern for religion. I reconciled with the church decades later. Bernard Nathanson went from pro-choice to pro-life because of biology and technology. He didn’t enter the Church until many years after that. But you know what, abortion fans, you just keep tooting your tired old horns. In fact, have your li’l ole selves a big tootin’ party, while we chip away at Roe v Wade until it’s overturned. Sleep, li’l bunny, sleep. When you wake up from your nap, the tortise will be lounging on the other side of the finish line!
Reality, using condoms makes me feel like a whore. Its my experiance and its valid. Why would I get a tubal or ask my husband to get a vasectomy when I want more children?
Yes, millions, “Reality.” You really DO have a very narrow perception of reality.
“An abortion fan admitting to Planned P’s favorite marketing ploy” – in your dreams sweetie! There is no correlation between what I said and your little propaganda preach.
Ah, more imaginative interpretation. I was not suggesting Sydney M. have a tubal ligation. I was responding about bc in general to her words such as “So I am saying to anyone who will listen that NFP is a wonderful, NATURAL way to space children to your liking” – can you see the words anyone and your in there ninek?
I didn’t say NFP was a ‘religious discipline’. I was stating the approach that needs to be taken for it to be relatively successful requires strong adherence and committment, similar to some people of faith and their religion.
As for the rest of your ‘contribution’ – dream on!
OK, Sydney M, you have a reason for feeling like a whore if condoms are involved, so not to use them is your choice. I would not argue with you over that. Are you saying that your husband is forcing or coercing you to use other than NFP? I don’t like the sound of that!
Why would you intimate to others that using methods other than NFP might make them feel like a whore? That’s a bit extreme.
That’s rubbish Alice PA!
Reality, if I feel cheapened by condoms I am sure I am not the only one who feels like that.
Would love to discuss more but I am on an android and it took me 10 minutes to type that. Lol.
Reality,
You wrote:
“A couple of personal scenarios doesn’t change the fact that the vast majorty of women who have abortions continue their lives happy with the choice they’ve made and are freer to pursue whatever they want in life.” and “the comparatively small percentage of women who decide their abortion experiences were bad”
I was pointing out that there are plenty of women who are struggling with a past abortion and who’d find those comments minimalizing & dismissive of their feelings & experiences. And did you miss the part where I said, “These are all things you and other pro-choicers have done and said“? I was simply ponting out how the rhetoric you used above & actual examples of rhetoric other pro-choicers have used here and elsewhere is dismissive, callous, & insensitive towards women who are struggling with a past abortion. Hardly a creative fabrication or strawman arugment
Hi Rachael C!!
You are a sweetheart and I want to thank you for your love and care and concern for those hurt by abortion!! I am grateful for you!
Here’s the thing. Women that share how they have been hurt by abortion have “an agenda.” Those personal stories of force, coercion, infertility, physical, psychological and spiritual pain are just meant to “further the prolife cause.” :)
Women that say abortion was the best thing they have ever done and that they are thrilled with their happy abortions are just “sharing.”
Lest you forget, Reality I was once a militant proabort. Just like you.
Rubbish? Denial is one of the most basic and common psychological defense mechanisms. It has been defined as the “refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn’t exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.”
Denial can also be the refusal to accept one’s own internal reality, such as grief and anger over an abortion. I denied mine for a long time because no one else would validate it. When someone finally did, it literally saved my life.
I have already met many, many other women who have had a similar experience of long-term denial and eventual validation. With more than a million abortions per year since 1975, there is a high probability that, yes, literally millions of women have suffered and are suffering (literally) the consequences of abortion. That suffering is only compounded and prolonged by the refusal–both before and after abortion–of abortion’s proponents to acknowledge this outcome.
You can call this (and us) whatever you want; it doesn’t change that it’s true. Death and life, hate and love are distinct, powerful, undeniable, opposite realities. I hope and pray that one day you will stop being complicit in so much harm and start facilitating, and experiencing, the miracles of life and love.
Reality,
What you said was “Catholics and a few others.” You mentioned Catholics SPECIFICALLY but you never said what the “few others” were; so it stands to reason I’d get specific and say that not just Catholics, but also some Protestants, and I’d venture to guess even those who aren’t Christian and perhaps even some atheists have practiced NFP with success.
You were the one who said that NFP would ”never beat ever-improving contraceptives” which (apart from your statement about medical and Catholics, oh and your “few others”) made it sound like NFP wasn’t very effective at all, but in actuality, NFP when used properly and contraceptives when used properly have the SAME percentages of effectiveness to avoid pregnancy.
I was clarifying NFP because you seemed to have misconceptions about it. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe you’ve studied NFP and realize it’s more than what you said on here–but it wouldn’t be effective to your argument to admit that, because you come across extremely pro-contraceptives and not very pro-NFP at all.
People have a lot of misconceptions when it comes to NFP. It’s not as hard to practice as people think. It’s just like developing good habits–it might take some time and some practice, but it doesn’t do damage to the body like contraceptives can (have you ever read/heard the warnings about using contraceptives?)