(Prolifer)ations 4-19-11
by Susie Allen, host of the blog, Pro-Life in TN
As always, we welcome your suggestions for additions to our Top Blogs (see tab on right side of home page)! Email Susie@jillstanek.com.
- Lisa Graas tells of Christian Voices for Life’s harassment by the IRS, who has sent letters demanding to know “whether the group does ‘education on both sides of the issues,’ whether members of the group ‘try to block people to [sic] enter a … medical clinic’…, whether members of the group ‘attempt to talk to someone trying to enter a medical clinic,’ and to ‘please explain what you are [doing] during’ 40 Days for Life and Life Chain vigils.” The group is now receiving legal assistance from the Thomas More Society.
- The Culture Vulture addresses the issue of the modern day eugenic movement, which is currently on a mission to identify and eliminate autistic children before birth. CV also shares the video story of Jason McElwain, an autistic teen who puts thoughts of this eugenic barbarism to shame:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fw1CcxCUgg[/youtube]
- Fletcher Armstrong writes about his participation in a recent radio debate which focused on father’s rights in an abortion v. mother’s rights, instead of on the rights of the preborn human:But if the preborn child is a human being — science tells us he/she is a living human being from the moment of fertilization — then it is the baby’s rights which are at stake, not the father’s.”
- Coming Home posts the first article in a series on the issues of embryo adoption, IVF, and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
- Catholic Vote discusses a 40 Days for Life pro-choice counter protest in Seattle.
- Big Blue Wave discusses an article which claims women are being denied medication for extreme morning sickness and are therefore choosing to abort.
- Accepting Abundance contrasts the peaceful prayer vigil at a Planned Parenthood with an act of vandalism across the street at a pregnancy resource center.
- Abortion State has more information on the botched abortion call to 911 in WA. Thanks to a public record law, we now know the patient transported via ambulance was 16 years old.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnZ1Q3ojZqQ[/youtube]
Apr.19, 2011 4:30 pm |
Blogs |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It would be cool to put up a billboard near an abortion clinic that reads,
“Have you been injured by abortion?
Infections? Complications? Depression? Infertility?
Our experienced malpractice attorneys can help
Call (123) 456-7890
This is the best argument for parental consent laws I have yet to see.
Mary,
It certainly is a good one.
Here’s a link to a Guttmacher Institute Report as of April 1, 2011, Parental Involvement in Minors’ Abortions. It reports the laws of 42 States. (Can we assume that the states not mentioned in the report, and District of Columbia have NO laws regarding parental involvement? I’m not sure.) The report is heavily footnoted, so even if the state shows up on this report, the state may not have a policy currently in effect.
http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PIMA.pdf
Hi Janet,
Thank you. What is overlooked so much in this debate is the fact that if a minor suffers any kind of complication, a parent must give consent for treatment. When I worked ER, we did not concern ourselves with family dynamics. This was a minor, a parent or guardian must be notified and give consent, unless of course it was a life threatening emergency, but every effort was being made to find a parent or guardian.
Oh, and the parents will have to pay for the emergency transport and any treatment their daughter receives. But they aren’t considered worthy of being notified to begin with.
Mary,
This would make an excellent lawsuit against the abortionist. If the parent was not notified in order to give consent for a surgical treatment, then all subsequent costs should be assumed by the abortionist whose malpractice resulted in need for further treatment, as a minor is not legally capable of entering into such contracts.
(Sarcasm alert) Oh noooo! This could never happen with safe and legal abortions performed at the number one abortion provider in America. They only give top-notch, state-of-the-art, safe “women’s reproductive care”. Only if abortion were made illegal again would the coat-hangers come out of the woodwork, only then would we have women hemorrhage, go into shock and possibly die. You prolifers lie bacause you just want to make PP look bad.
The lies PP tell about how safe, harmless and easy abortion is (“it’s safer than childbirth”) Everytime I hear pro-aborts justify legalized abortion because of the lie that “untold numbers of women will die because they will resort to using coat-hangers to self abort” I want to scream. Performing vaginal exams on women during spontaneous labor was painful and difficult enough, even when the cervix was effacing and dialating. The odds of a woman being capable of reaching deep into her own body, through her vagina, past her closed cervix with a coat hanger to dismember and dislodge her baby that is embedded into her endometrial lining are very slim. It was a rare occurance because the pain would be excrutiating, the physical and emotional trauma devastating, the damage done by forcing her cervical os open (which is a very tight muscular band meant to keep the uterus closed and the baby protected inside his/her mother’s uterua until the woman goes into labor) would be extensive. PP lies to you!!! Too bad we can’t interview this 16 year old to ask her how safe, harmless and easy her abortion was.
And to top it all off this 16 year old cannot legally have her ears pierced, a tatoo applied, go on a field trip or be given Tylenol in school without her parent’s permission but PP can mutilate her baby’s body and her body and almost kill her but her parents are expected to pay for the ambulance, her emergency room care, her possible hospitalization and any further treatment caused by complications of this so-called “safe” abortion.
“it’s safer than childbirth” – well yes it is actually.
Did the young lady have parental agreement? Was she accompanied by a parent or carer? Ah, you don’t know?
Reality,
Good question. We don’t know do we? Neither do you. So, being that you folks fight parental consent laws, what about a situation like this when there has been no parental consent given?
Guess what, as soon as she shows up in an ER medical staff will be calling parents. EMS may have already contacted parents. If she requires surgical intervention and I will be caring for her I and other OR staff will have to speak directly with a parent or legal guardian prior to surgery conserning her and her family health history and her subsequent care.
Oh and Reality, I saw a situation very similar to this happen, so it isn’t far fetched.
So why are parents fit to be notified under these circumstances but you don’t think they should be notified or be required to give consent for an abortion?
Hi Gerard,PLL, and Reality
Years ago we had a situation of a 16y/o girl who had an abortion without parental consent.
Apparently she visited an ENT doctor a week or two after the abortion for an unrelated problem and confided to him that she was experiencing abnormal vaginal bleeding. I don’t know if she mentioned the abortion. Anyway, the ENT said he would perform no surgical procedures until she saw an OB/GYN and have this problem checked out. She went to the OB and again I have no idea if she told him of the abortion. Anyway, he determined that “Sally” needed surgical intervention. She had retained fetal tissue. Also, her parents had to be informed of the surgeon’s findings. I remember Sally in the recovery room asking the nurse if her parents know yet. Apparently her parents were devastated by the news but seemed very loving and supportive. Oh, and of course they will pay for their daughter’s care.
Sally was a frightened young girl offered what looked to her as an easy out. Its human nature, who wouldn’t look for an easy out? I suspect she could very well have gone to her parents for help. She was retaining fetal tissue and could well have been developing a deadly infection. She may have been ignorant of the risks, in denial, or fearful of telling anyone. I’ve seen mature women react the same way, why would one expect better from a school girl?
That is why parental involvement is crucial and other any other circumstances minor children do not leave a facility without parents being advised of symptoms to observe for and what action to take.
I’m sure you agree Reality that it was very fortunate this young woman was in need of an ENT exam. Who knows how dangerous this situation could have become otherwise.
And if a minor now goes to a tanning bed not only do they have to have parental signature, they have to accompany them on their first visit to ensure the signature is genuine.
Even if Washington had a “parental notification” law, the “age of consent” is 16 so the issue would have been, legally, moot.
BTW, how did the interceptor of the call find out about the girl’s age? What other information is out there? It should go without saying that any information that could lead to an identification of the girl would be considered a violation of patient confidentiality (HIPPA) and subject to criminal prosecution.
CC, it’s HIPAA, not HIPPA. And the 911 call information wasn’t “intercepted,” it was legally obtained and no details about the girl beyond her age and physical condition were given.
P.S. – age of consent and age for parental notification of a minor are two different issues and are usually not the same.
As long as they’re of the age of sexual consent, apparently abortion fans think it’s ok to nearly kill her. Nice. The compassion and warm fuzziness of the accessories to the crime never ceases to amaze me.
No ninek, no-one thinks its ‘ok to nearly kill her’. What’s ok is that she had freedom of choice. All procedures contain risks. In her case, there was less than if she had continued to childbirth. So your little snark is simply driven by your personal stance, not facts.
ah – but did she really understand what she was choosing? Did she really understand that abortion could cause her harm?
Freedom of choice ends when that choice harms another – so I should not be able to choose hitting someone or harming someone and not have any repercussions.
I thought the mantra of the pro-abortion crowd was – ‘safe, legal and rare.’
Here is another instance of not safe.
So the 16 year old had informed consent? She was well aware that her child would be killed? And completely understood that something could go horribly wrong and she might be transported to a hospital so they could save her life?
Ya think??
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhhhttttttt.
“ah – but did she really understand what she was choosing? Did she really understand that abortion could cause her harm?” – probably at least as much as she would have regarding full gestation and delivery.
“Here is another instance of not safe” – still safer than childbirth.
Probably as much as any other option Carla.
Reality – you keep saying that abortion is safer than childbirth. can you corroborate that without using a pro-abortion source? In the developed countries, there is not much downside from childbirth – especially with the advent of medical science, sanitary practices and normal hand-washing techniques.
Women years ago used to die in childbirth, simply because doctors never used to wash their hands while delivering children. That rarely happens now even in developing countries.
thank you in advance for providing a source.
Probably not, Reality.
If women were given informed consent they wouldn’t choose abortion.
Praying for this girl. I wish I knew if she was ok. I never get to find out. :(
The thing is my daughter died in my abortion. I now have four living children. See the diff???
Praying for you too. Someday I hope you understand.
Reality,
You haven’t addressed any of the issues I raised. What might have happened to that 16y/o girl I posted about had she not happened to have an ENT problem? I saw a woman die less than24 hours after a diagnosis of uterine sepsis, despite intensive care.
BTW the symptoms of a deadly infection can be identical to flu symptoms, so its possible “Sally” and her parents would have thought there was no reason for concern. After all, her parents had no knowledge of her surgery or what symptoms to observe Sally for, and Sally may not know or be in denial of just how seriously ill she really is.
Here you go joyfromillinois:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm – table 19
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/248/2/188.abstract?sid=6e8823e5-5cde-4a82-b95a-5b8ac96a43d3
“If women were given informed consent they wouldn’t choose abortion” – that is patently unrue. Just because people don’t share your position on abortion does not mean they are uninformed.
“The thing is my daughter died in my abortion. I now have four living children. See the diff???” – exactly what ‘diff’ are you referring to?
Praying is a waste of time. Particularly doing it for me.
OK Mary, what about the young woman who is told by doctors and specialists that she is ‘depressed’ only to eventually find out that she has two major internal organ abnormalities, one pre-cancerous? Every procedure has risk, every medical interaction can go wrong. The fact remains that Sally was facing lower risks with an abortion than with delivery.
Reality
OK Mary, what about the young woman who is…………
Say what???
Sally was facing the risk of uterine sepsis, which can be deadly. Please address my question.
My “position” comes from being lied to by omission at the mill.
I am hardly alone in that experience. Thousands and thousands and thousands of us have been lied to and are silent no more.
Praying anyway. :)
Ah, ok Mary. I thought you were being rhetorical.
a. she would have seen another doctor to ask about the bleeding – after all, she did mention it to the ENT rather than hide it.
b. it would have got more serious and someone would have noticed and taken action
c. it would have got more serious and she would have got worried enough to take action herself.
d. she would have wished it away and eventually ended up in such a serious state that she collapsed and was taken care of.
e. she would have wished it away and eventually ended up in such a serious state that she died.
f. any number of other possible scenarios.
You are correct – “Who knows how dangerous this situation could have become otherwise.”
You are of course trying to say that she could have died because she had an abortion. This is correct, anyone having an abortion can die. But fewer do than who die through full gestation and childbirth. Yes something went wrong, but it was still the lesser risk.
And what could have happened to the young lady I mentioned if she hadn’t persevered? Anything ranging from serious health issues to death. And that wasn’t related to reproductive functions. Just shows that things can go pear-shaped in any medical scenario.
So what you are telling me Carla is that you went to an abortion clinic to get an abortion but didn’t know that a fetus was going to be removed from your body?
Reality,
This was an actual situation.
a)What if she had no need to see a doctor for any reason? Are you so certain she would have sought one out? Her parents would need to give consent for treatment.
b)By the time it got serious enough for someone to take action it may already be fatal.
c)You’d be surprised how sick people can get before they get help. This is a girl who has had an abortion without parental knowledge. She’s afraid to tell them or anyone. They think her symptoms are the flu and are not overly concerned.
d) By the time she collapsed it would likely be because of deadly sepsis and a blood pressure that doesn’t register.
e) The most likely scenario
I’m saying she could have had a life threatening complication from an abortion her parents had no idea she had. Whether fewer die from childbirth or abortion is not the issue here. You can list all the possible scenarios you want. The one to be most concerned about is the one in which she and her parents do not recognize a life threatening situation because the parents are unaware of the fact she had an abortion.
Now would you please address this?
Reality,
Read your own research! I hope others do as well. I have read many comments here by “pro-choice” individuals who claim they have unbiased scientific data to support their opinions, but upon investigation the data simply does not hold up to scrutiny.
There are too many errors in the conclusions you state to mention them all but here are a few:
1. The abortion figures reported are incomplete and are completely voluntary.
2. Ascertaining the cause of death after an induced abortion is subject to conjecture.
3.”Pregnancy – related deaths” include statistics from abortion (induced and spontaneous) and any death up to one year after a pregnancy is lumped together as a “pregnancy- related” death.
4.You are frequently comparing apples and oranges to make your point – for a healthy 16 year old, with pre-natal care, childbirth is much safer than abortion. For an unhealthy 45 year old, without prenatal care, childbirth is much riskier than it is for a 16 year old – however abortion would also be much riskier.
I hope that all the learned people on this site check out this “research.” I am certain you can find many more errors.
Maureen
This is the question you asked me Mary – “What might have happened to that 16y/o girl I posted about had she not happened to have an ENT problem?”
I answered it.
I see you agree with me that the correct answer is ‘f. any number of other possible scenarios’.
Having a little verbal ramble and then asking me to ‘address it’ is a little broad Mary. What specifically do you want me to address? Shall I respond with a verbal ramble?
Or is there another actual question you wish to ask?
The data I have seen Maureen, stipulates deaths per live birth.
Go to any independant source of data and the result will vary from a ratio of 7 to 1 to a ratio of 11 to 1. The contrast is such that even allowing for variances, it is clear that abortion is the safer option.
It’s CDC data, not pro-choice data. Similar results are available from other non-biased sources. Are you able to refute it with any data not provided by anti-choicers?
Your claims of ‘too many errors in the conclusions’ and the ‘apples and oranges’ of 16 year olds and 45 year olds are spurious and do not impact on the facts of the matter.
Show me anything which demonstrates that the data is flawed to the extent that the death rate from abortion is not significantly less than for childbirth.
Reality –
READ the entire research you provided. The CDC has compiled data supplied to the organization, they have not conducted the research themselves. They admit some of the limitations in their report. Some of the figures are for “live birth” and many are not. If you do not have accurate, reliable data going in, you cannot have accurate, reliable results. At least if the data was collected in the same manner, there might be some validity for comparison, but as it is now, it is pretty much worthless.
There is no INDEPENDENT source of data for abortion statistics. In the past, I thought that this would be one area that pro-life and pro-choice could agree. However, NARAL is adamantly opposed to any type of required reporting of complications from abortion.
However, there is another way to at least get an indication of the danger of abortion. Look up the lawsuits against your own local abortionist. It is truly shocking, especially because, due to their client base, abortionists are somewhat “lawsuit proof.” Yes, compare them with the local ob/gyn’s (who do not perform abortions). I think all who do this will have their eyes opened.
Finally, unfortunately, the CDC is subject to a political viewpoint. It should never be listed as the “be-all and end-all” for unbiased research. I’m not sure if there is any such organization, but if one consults a variety of sources, the truth may be found.
One more point – unnecessary c-sections and other medical interventions have significantly increased maternal mortality. So that could be another factor to consider. I think it would be more honest to cite mortality figures for un-medicated, midwife attended births, since that is reflective of the natural process of giving birth. However, barring that, at least the method of birth (and abortion) should be mentioned.
Maureen
Ah, the old ‘don’t like the results so attack the data’ ploy.
Even if we applied a data collection variance factor of 200% to 300% (which would be extraordinarly astronomical) the death rate from childbirth would still be measurably higher than for abortion.
“an indication” – would that be like a guess? A guesstimate? Anecdotal data?
“Look up the lawsuits against your own local abortionist…..compare them with the local ob/gyn’s. I think all who do this will have their eyes opened.” – come on then, open our eyes, show us the data.
“the CDC is subject to a political viewpoint” – proof?
“It should never be listed as the “be-all and end-all” for unbiased research.” – it isn’t. There are unbiased sources from all around the world.
http://www.arha.org.au/factSheets/maternalmortalityandabortionnew.pdf
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/181_08_181004/kin10521_fm.html
“but if one consults a variety of sources, the truth may be found.” – yes, and that truth is that abortion is safer than childbirth.
“I think it would be more honest to cite mortality figures for un-medicated, midwife attended births” – whilst I don’t know, I have a funny feeling that this would make the situation look even worse for childbirth compared to abortion. But there probably aren’t enough numbers to be sure.
But thank you anyway for helping me to demonstrate that women are not more likely to die from an abortion.
Reality 10:23PM
My apologies, I should have been more specific.
Had not Sally gone to an ENT, she may not have gotten the medical she was in need of in time because her parents had no knowledge of her abortion or what symptoms of complcations to observe her for.
Do you agree then that abortions performed on minors without the knowledge or consent of a parent or guardian can put a minor child at serious risk?
Reality:
The sources you supplied in your second post again (which actually use the same data – read the footnotes), point out the problems. They are speaking of “pregnancy related” not CHILDBIRTH, although childbirth is one of the factors listed.
I will cut and paste a little from your own sources. Again I encourage everyone to read the entire links posted from Reality, and from other pro-choice proponents.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm
“Women in the United States are becoming pregnant at older ages, and the prevalence of chronic medical conditions increases with age (17–18). In addition, older women are at increased risk for pregnancy-related death (7—10) and adverse reproductive health outcomes, particularly women aged >35 years (17,19).”
In this report, a woman’s death was classified as pregnancy-related if it occurred during pregnancy or within 1 year of pregnancy and resulted from 1) complications of the pregnancy, 2) a chain of events that was initiated by the pregnancy, or 3) the aggravation of an unrelated condition by the physiologic effects of the pregnancy or its management (11).
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5511a1.htm:
This report summarizes and describes data voluntarily reported to CDC regarding legal induced abortions obtained in the United States in 2003.
These data are reported voluntarily and are subject to at least five limitations.
Third, data provided to state or area health departments by providers might be incomplete
Studies following for risks of induced abortion longer term:
http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/stakes.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12709667
http://canadianmedicaljournal.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253
Safety of homebirth:
http://www.aboundingjoy.com/insstats.htm
I have to go to work now. The bias of the CDC has been well-established. This is not to say that none of their data is correct, simply that the organization is, at least somewhat, politically motivated. All you have to do is check out the liberal response to the CDC when Bush appointed the head of the CDC. Obama appointed a new director as soon as he was elected.
Roe v. Wade was decided upon a case that was a lie. Abortion proponents have been lying, obfuscating, and changing the subject since then.
Let us shed the light of truth upon this blight.
Reality – I wish you the best. I’m sure we will be communicating vs. “dueling research” again.
Peace,
Maureen
There are two problems with reporting of abortion deaths. First, the coding system requirements themselves (WHO & CDC): From False Abortion Statistics Exposed
“WHO’s coding rule no. 12, together with its recommendation no. 7, states that deaths due to medical and surgical treatment must be reported under the complication of the procedure and not under the condition or reason for treatment. In effect, this makes abortion a “ghost” category under which it is impossible to code a death. Medical coders have, in fact, relayed that any attempt to code a death due to abortion under an abortion category yields a “reject message” from the computer programs provided by the National Centre for Health Statistics of Washington D.C., a division of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, Georgia. (This computer program is now used in Spain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the United States, and will be introduced in the British Isles this January.) These computer programs simply incorporate the same problematic coding rules already used throughout the world. Only a minute number of abortion-related deaths actually qualify to be declared under abortion, i.e. those for which the medical certificate of death categorically and unequivocally gives abortion as the underlying cause of death. If abortion is mentioned anywhere else on the death certificate, on the underlying cause line, the death gets coded as an accident of some kind, a sudden or unexpected death, an illness (like septicaemia—blood poisoning) or an injury, etc.”
How does this play out in real life? Take a look at these cases in MD:
“On March 1, 1989, Erica Richardson, a sixteen-year-old Maryland resident, bled to death from a uterine perforation only hours after undergoing an abortion. During the next five months, two other residents of Maryland, Gladys Estanislao and Debra Gray, also died from abortion complications. Surprisingly, none of these women were ever granted the smallest of recognitions-becoming a statistic. The official statistics issued by Maryland public health officials showed that there were no deaths from abortion in 1989. Indeed, Maryland only reported a single abortion-related death for the entire decade of 1980 to 1989. Actually, there was a fourth woman who died as a result of a 1989 abortion in Maryland. In this case, Susanne Logan fell into a coma during her abortion and awoke four months later as a quadriplegic, unable to talk. She survived for three years, dying in 1992 at the age of twenty-four. Since Susanne’s death did not occur within forty-five days of her abortion, it has not been counted in any of the official abortion mortality statistics.
These four deaths occurred in one small state. For that same year, 1989, the Abortion Surveillance Unit of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported only twelve abortion-related deaths for the entire country. But, as we will see, the CDC lacks any regular and systematic means of identifying abortion-related deaths.
Source
The second problem lies in the nature of clinics reporting abortion complications. Listen to former abortion industry workers & clinic directors talk about this:
Abortion The Inside Story Particularly @ 1:50
klynn73,
Klynn 73,
WOW! Very powerful video.
Reality,
Sorry I left out a couple of things:
“Ah, the old ‘don’t like the results so attack the data’ ploy.”
Um, yes. If the data is flawed, the results will be also.
“an indication” – would that be like a guess? A guesstimate? Anecdotal data?”
Again, yes.
I suggest that you (and everyone) look up for yourself the nature and number of lawsuits against your local abortionist. I did for mine and was shocked. Apparently, this physician was first a pediatrician, who had a couple of circumcisions go horribly wrong. Then, he was involved with breast implants – again with sickening consequences. He is now a practicing abortionist with multiple clinics. He has been sued for perforated uteri (sp?), surgical abortion of ectopic pregnancies which subsequently ruptured, numerous retained placentas or fetal parts, and other events as well. Also, civilly, he has had many lawsuits for failure to pay for rent, services, etc. In addition, the state medical board cited him for overcharging patients and over-billing Medicare. These were from a few years ago, I’m guessing there are more now.
This information was found from going physically to the courthouses (I went to two in different counties) and copying the information. I wish we had easily accessible information about ALL doctors. This is completely doable with our current level of technology. There are a lot of people who choose to protect doctors instead of the public.
Maureen
If ‘Reality’ would watch Abortion The Inside Story with an honest, open mind, there would be no more debate. I wish everybody pro-abort in America would watch those. Pretty hard to argue with that many people who are obviously not reading from scripts but speaking from their own sad, horrifying experiences.
Joli: agreed
Reality says: April 20, 2011 at 8:26 pm
“Praying is a waste of time. Particularly doing it for me.”
If you really believe that to be true then you really ought to encourage us.
As long as we are engaged in ‘praying for you’ we can’t be giving our full attention to advancing our individual political agendas, while you on the other hand are free to invest yourself fully in your boondoggles.
I have had two encounters with neuro surgeons who gave family members that same advice about them praying for their loved ones who were in those doctors care.
Fortunately, the family members after considering the doc’s advice instructed him to do what he does and they would do what they do.
End result.
A teenage girl, a young man who was a logger, and a physician, all three who had suffered severe brain trauma, did not die, but lived.
Not as vegetables, as the neuro surgeons predicted, but independent productive lives shared with their parents, siblings, spouses and friends.
I can’t ‘splain’ that to you. I just know it to be true, because I was there for all three.
In the cases of the teenage girl and logger, it was the same neurosurgeon offerring the same advice, to two different families months apart.
Apart from GOD the neurosurgeon may have been right, but the doc did not have the final say in the matter.
The phyician, who had suffered a massive stroke, occurred at least 10 years later in a different state. His colleagues had written him off as well. They advised the man’s wife to pull the plug. It was the ‘humane’ thing to do.
But I had worked on this man’s a/c and when I heard of his situation I went to see him in the hospital and met with his wife and told her about the teenage girl and the logger and then we prayed for her husband.
When I went back to the hospital that evening he was sitting up in bed watching television.
He is enjoying his grandchildren today.
His wife told me later that we were the only ones who had given them any hope.
You just keep doing what you’re doing and we will keep doing what we’re doing.
Just curious. Who are you hoping will be wrong. Us, or you?
Thank you Ken for sharing those testimonies. lovely. And Reality- we don’t expect you to ‘get it’ now – but sometime I hope that you would recognize that people here do have hope for you and want your greatest good. we want that for everyone. Nothing is ever wasted – and no matter how stuck in their position people want to be, as they say : ‘there are no atheists in foxholes.’
Wishing every one a good passover and Happy Easter Triduum. Peace and love to all.
That’s rather a lot of words from Maureen and Klynn73 to nit-pick a few exceptions to a raft of data and reports from around the world which clearly demonstrate that less women die from abortions than childbirth.
I note that no official or unbiased data-sets or reports are available which would negate this fact.
Slipping a few ad hominen comments into the mix does not validate your denial of the bottom line that abortion is safer.
I’m not ‘hoping’ anyone is wrong ken, I know who is.
‘there are no atheists in foxholes.’ – one of the biggest balderdash statements touted.