I’ve been watching NARAL’s flickr page and been blown away by the thought-provoking signs and pictures pro-lifers are posting. What a collection.
Friend of this blog Jacqueline has designed saved some that really hit home. Feel free to repost for the benefit of NARAL’s readers. The first one is so creepy, mostly because it’s spot-on…
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
They aren’t my designs. I just collected them as the “best of.” Someone with serious photoshop skills are taking the signs pro-aborts post and changing the messages to be more accurate. I simply took screenshots to share with others and repost, as they are brilliant!
To “joke” about why women have abortions underscores how the anti-choice movement hates women. Priceless.
And exactly what is a “good” reason to kill your child, CC? Enlighten us! Because if abortion does not kill a child, a woman doesn’t need a reason and these are as good as any. If abortion DOES kill a child, no reason you give can justify it.
P.S. I love women. I am one. And I don’t need the ability to have surgery and kill my baby. To say that women’s reproductive capacity holds us back and needs a “remedy” is the ultimate in misogyny. People who hate women want to wound them with abortion, not protect and care for them like we do.
Shaming and judgmental of people who have abortions. It seems that your beliefs go far beyond opposing abortion to include hating women who have sex and use birth control. More specifically, these seem to be attacking poor women.
Repeatedly polls show women are the majority of pro-lifers, and, by a slightly smaller majority, the majority of women are pro-life. Likewise polls have shown for years that the majority of pro-choice people are male. So exactly how is it even *theoretically* possible for pro-choice people to be ‘anti-women’? What is ‘good’ for women and who is ‘for’ women is decided by the majority of women, not by a few rabid ‘feminist’ whose only connection to most women through out history is they aren’t men!
Wow, Lauren, you missed the point big time. The signs are satire, pointing out the absurdity of supporting abortion. The signs show how abortion is meant to kill the poor, kill minorities and support a lifestyle of irresponsibility and selfishness.
Shouldn’t fertile but irresponsible or immature females be on contraceptives? What kind of females do we want to become mothers? If a female prefers tattoos or proms to caring for babies, a baby born to her is disadvantaged. I don’t want her to become a mother. It is possible that promiscuous females might make irresponsible mothers. They should be using contraceptives.
Yes, I believe we should be more sexually responsible.
Yes, I believe we should emphasize the more cerebral sides of our natures.
But we have to deal with reality. That reality is that some girls and women won’t make good mothers — and not all of them are either abstinent or lesbian.
Being pro-contraceptives doesn’t mean advocating abortion. There’s a big difference between preventing a pregnancy and ripping a fetus out of the womb.
Who’s the dude with the first sign “Abortion hides the evidence”?
Looks horribly authentic.
If someone wants to take contraceptives, why do I have to pay for it? They should make that purchase themselves and not force it on taxpayers. If they can’t afford contraceptives, they might consider abstaining from sex until marriage (oh my!). ”Responsible” sex is sex within marriage. We are humans, not animals ruled by brute instinct.
carder – I saw that guy yesterday – he originally was a “serious” poster with a typical NARAL sign that said “stop the war on women” – but given his creepy appearance, a number of people started photoshopping a number of more appropriate words, the best of which stuck
And “stuck” they did.
“If someone wants to take contraceptives, why do I have to pay for it? They should make that purchase themselves and not force it on taxpayers.”
If someone wants [insert any one of about a million other things that the government subsidizes], why do I have to pay for it? This is just a stupid line of reasoning that should be put to rest. Anyone who pays taxes is paying for things that they personally find immoral or at least imprudent to publicly fund.
As for the faked signs, some of these are positively libelous, especially the first one which seems to suggest that the person has done something illegal for which the “evidence” must be destroyed–a direct and completely inappropriate attack on his character. If I was that person and I saw that Photoshopped picture I would be talking to my lawyer about pursuing this matter legally.
Denise Noe,
You gonna make that call then? You gonna decide who is a potential “good mother” and who isn’t and then act accordingly?
Good luck with that.
I have a tattoo. And four children. You were saying….
Carla says:
May 26, 2011 at 9:31 am
Denise Noe,
You gonna make that call then? You gonna decide who is a potential “good mother” and who isn’t and then act accordingly?
Good luck with that.
I have a tattoo. And four children. You were saying…
(Denise) Carla, I’m not criticizing you for having a tattoo. Or for having 4 kids. Or for having a tattoo AND 4 kids.
The signs held up in front of the people seemed to indicate that a woman or girl shouldn’t be getting contraception because she wanted it so she could be irresponsibly promiscuous or because she wanted contraception because having a baby would interfere with her having the money for something relatively frivolous (again, no offense met) such as a tattoo. I was pointing out that it may not be good for society as a whole to discourage such females from using contraceptives.
Indeed, it might even be a good idea for society to fund it since the alternative might be to have to fund clean-up programs for the babies who could be born only to be neglected.
Again, I’m not promoting irresponsible sex. I believe we should emphasize the more intellectual sides of our human natures.
This whole idea of a “War on Women” is really angering.
I am a woman. I am a feminist. I am pro-life.
Way to try and silence my voice, NARAL. You don’t speak for me.
I am alive because my mother did not have me aborted, nor did someone coerce my mother to abort me.
As a former Human Embryo, a former Human Fetus, and a former Human Neonate, I have full and complete moral authority to oppose elective, induced abortion, more so than women who claim that women alone have the right to speak on abortion, while men, who will never become pregnant, and who will never need an abortion, have no right to oppose abortion Many pro-life women will never become pregnant due to anomilies. Are they supposed to shut up and not oppose abortion because they “will never get pregnant and never need an abortion?” That is absurd!
Furthermore, men DO need abortions in order to keep their “freedom” for it saves men the responsibility of providing for a child and giving payments to the mother of the child.
So, the next time any loud mouthed, vindictive, mean spirited, hate filled, violent thug abortion supporter who loves to support or take part in the butchering-slaughtering of tiny new human beings, children, tries to dictate that I, as a male, have no right to oppose abortion, remember, again, as a former Human Embryo, Human Fetus, Pre-nate, and Neo-nate, I have full and complete moral authority to oppose abortion, and those qualifications trump that of women who try to silence all other living human beings whose mothers never aborted them.
Inasmuch as I disagree with Carla, I respect that she is still experiencing pain because of her abortion as are many women who post comments on this blog. I certainly wouldn’t put these women in the “satirical” categories that are represented by the photos. If a woman decides to have an abortion (or to bear a child) it’s not up to me (or society) to judge her. I believe these photos do a disservice to those who, on this blog, had their reasons for what they did including, for some, having been coerced into the procedure. This “satire” is offensive to both “post-abortive” pro-life and pro-choice women who faced difficult decisions.
What kind of females do we want to become mothers? If a female prefers tattoos or proms to caring for babies, a baby born to her is disadvantaged. I don’t want her to become a mother. It is possible that promiscuous females might make irresponsible mothers. They should be using contraceptives
This is what you wrote, Denise. This is what I was commenting on.
How are you going to work towards what you wrote? How are you going to act on your convictions of who may or may not be a good mother?
I don’t want her to become a mother.
Well, ok then. How much control do you really have over that, Denise?
Your posts always leave me wondering where you are coming from. Prolife? Proabort?
Hi CC.
What do you disagree with me about exactly? Refresh my memory.
“This “satire” is offensive to both “post-abortive” pro-life and pro-choice women who faced difficult decisions.”
So says the pro-abort. I’m pretty sure all the Pro-Lifers understand the satire and find it pretty funny.
As far as suing someone for the photo alterations, I seem to remember some Pro-Abort organization (PP maybe?) that sued a Pro-Life blogger or someone who had altered a video they made to insert images of the truth of abortion. Then a Pro-Life legal organization stepped in, reminded them that people have the right to work with publicly posted images for the purpose of satire and political commentary. And that was the end of the suit.
Besides, if you are a guy and creepy enough to post a pic of yourself with your shirt off holding a sign about a war on women, I doubt you are going to have much credibility in a court room. You may even enjoy the notoriety of having your photo posted 500 times. After all, you apparently wanted people to admire your shoulders. Now you are famous.
Carla says:
May 26, 2011 at 10:15 am
What kind of females do we want to become mothers? If a female prefers tattoos or proms to caring for babies, a baby born to her is disadvantaged. I don’t want her to become a mother. It is possible that promiscuous females might make irresponsible mothers. They should be using contraceptives
This is what you wrote, Denise. This is what I was commenting on.
How are you going to work towards what you wrote? How are you going to act on your convictions of who may or may not be a good mother? >>
(Denise) I was just indicating that I support those girls and women using contraceptives.
I don’t want her to become a mother.
Well ok then.
(Denise) I support their use of contraceptives. I event support government help for contraceptives.
However, I’m not setting myself up as judge of who can and can’t have kids. Many girls women will inevitably have kids and be bad mothers. Many girls and women who were previously irresponsible will become responsible if they have a baby. Yesterday’s promiscuous party girl may be today’s dedicated and good mother.
Some people are missing an obvious fact here. The intended audience for these photos is lawmakers, not post-abortive women, pro-life or otherwise. Within that context, the satire is perfectly appropriate. (I’m not sure it’s pure satire. Seen those videos taken at PP rallies over the last several weeks? Several of the photos are pretty accurate depictions of the attitudes at pro-abort rallies.)
Contraception enables a mindset that says that sex is for recreation (or placating a selfish partner, etc.) and that making a baby is a negative side effect to be avoided. This absolutely sets the stage for an abortion, should a child be conceived. Anybody who doesn’t see that is blinded by their own selfishness or dysfunction.
“I seem to remember some Pro-Abort organization (PP maybe?) that sued a Pro-Life blogger or someone who had altered a video they made to insert images of the truth of abortion. Then a Pro-Life legal organization stepped in, reminded them that people have the right to work with publicly posted images for the purpose of satire and political commentary. And that was the end of the suit.”
“Satire” only goes so far. Manipulating an image of someone to make it appear as though they have committed rape, are promiscuous, or even racist, is not satire or political commentary, it’s malicious and defamatory.
What if someone photoshopped the photos of that child holding pro-life signs from your previous post to say things like:
“I could never begin to understand the complexity of Women’s reproductive rights at such a young age”
Or
“my parents brainwashed me into being pro-life”
Or
“the majority of pro-lifers are uneducated”
Etc. Would you be ok with libelously photoshopping pro-choice signs onto people?
Jill stanek you should be ashamed for reprinting these
Denise,
I agree! There is a big difference between preventing a child from coming into existence and killing that child. But are you aware that most contraceptives cause abortions?
I’d say abortion is pretty malicious too. And you don’t seem to have any problems with that.
Mike,
Grab a Physician’s Desk Reference. IUDs, chemical and hormonal contraceptives don’t prevent abortions, the CAUSE abortions. I am merely consistent. How could I oppose abortion and NOT abortifacient drugs? This is not the land of make-believe. It’s the land of scientific fact.
And watch your mouth. My name is not Jesus Christ and it insults the real Jesus Christ to call me such.
You’re right, I dont have any problems with abortion, because a woman shouldnt be disadvantaged by a pregnancy or forced to endure one that she doesn’t want, simply because she’ s a woman.
Men have no required physical responsibilities toward pregnancy, NONE, which is why a woman should have the choice to remain pregnant or terminate if she so chooses.
Don’t tell me to watch my mouth, I don’t subscribe to the same belief system that you do
Men have no required physical responsibilities toward pregnancy, NONE.
Ah, yes. And you want to make sure he has no financial, emotional and other responsibilities, too, which is why abortion is so important to you.
I don’t care what you believe or not. Profanity is profanity and I will have you banned. It takes great self-control not to call you all sorts of expletives, but I abide by the rules. You will also, or you will leave.
I live in the land where PP’s arm, Guttmacher, publishes statistics that 54% of women getting abortions were using birth control when they got pregnant. So, more than half the time, birth control was ineffective.
Everywhere that the use of birth control rises, so does the rate of abortion.
NARAL is using lies against the Crisis Pregnancy Centers and has declared war on women and their children. For years we listened to abortion fans telling us that if we didn’t help women they would have to abort. Well, we’ve been helping women and their children, and NARAL is the one waging war against them.
When a woman goes into a CPC, she doesn’t exit bleeding. She never exits in an ambulance. Abortion facilities can’t say the same thing. That’s the world I live in.
Mike, a woman has a right to choose to have sex. A woman has the right to choose to use birth control. She has the right to undergo plastic surgery. She has the right to never have children. But she does NOT have the right to kill her own child simply because his or her existence puts a wrench in her “plans.” Abortion is used as a method of birth control. I am one of those pro-lifers who has no problem with artificial birth control….I DO have a problem with dismembering and incinerating babies in the name of “choice.” THAT IS NOT LIBERTY. That is oppression. My ability to carry life is an honor. It is not a flaw that needs to be corrected. Women don’t need a destructive surgical procedure to be “equal.” And our children are precious–we must be mindful that the act of sex, though really really AWESOME! (seriously, no sarcasm there!) can result in the creation of a child. We must be mindful that that is a new person, with his or her own rights and they must be protected and loved. Period. Nobody has the right to kill anyone, ever.
You’re right, I dont have any problems with abortion, because a woman shouldnt be disadvantaged by a pregnancy or forced to endure one that she doesn’t want, simply because she’ s a woman.
Men have no required physical responsibilities toward pregnancy, NONE, which is why a woman should have the choice to remain pregnant or terminate if she so chooses.
So, basically, you’re trying to protect the poar lil’ wimmenz who can’t do anything to help themselves. Poar little disempowered wimmenz! What would we ever do without the men like you, who speak on our behalf and tell us what we need?
Thanks, but no thanks, Mike. Women don’t need men who think like you on our side. In fact, the best thing you can do to help women is let actual women speak for themselves about what they need.
EDIT: Wow. I just read your post beneath mine and you really have a low opinion of pregnant women, don’t you? You clearly think pregnancy makes women inferior and takes away their agency. Your male privilege is dripping off of every word you’re saying there.
Just…really stop. Honestly, I don’t think you could be any more anti-feminist if you were actually trying.
That’s not what I said in the slightest. What I meant by “no physical responsibilities” is that the man is not incubating the baby, he does not have to undergo morning sickness, labor, weight gain, night sweats, body changes, anything. The biological father of a pregnancy doesn’t have to be in the picture at all, he could pick up and leave in the middle of the night and it would not physically affect the pregnancy. Why should men have zero physical responsibility to pregnancy and not let women make choices about their own bodies??
Alice- so are you saying that if a pro-choice woman said these things, you would respect her difference of opinion?
Women are not forced to endure pregnancy simply because they are women. They get pregnant because they choose to have sex. Fine. They are free to make that choice. But then they should take responsibility for that choice, and so should the father. The person really being punished in your desired state of things is the innocent child whose life is taken because the selfish parent(s) refuse to accept responsibility for the choices they have already made. And sadly, NARAL and the rest of the pro-aborts tell them it is no big deal and has no consequences. But the truth is that there are physical and mental consequences that many many women end up paying later and quite unexpectedly.
Mike,
The man has no physical responsibilities and abortion relieves him of ALL responsibilities towards the mother of his child and his child. So abortion doesn’t right the supposed inequities of natural law, it just absolves a man from any responsibility at all. How convenient that is for you! You get to use a woman as your personal inflatable doll, walk away when you impregnate her and claim that it’s best for her to kill the child. You get sex and no responsibilities! It’s the Playboy fantasy- it destroys women and children, but hey, that’s not your real concern anyway.
By the way, the fact that you feel that women are at such a disadvantage for having functioning reproductive organs that ovulate, menstruate, bear children, birth children and lactate show a profound misogyny that defies all words. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MY FUNCTIONING BODY AND IT’S LIFE-GIVING CAPACITY. In fact, there is something wrong with a body that does not reproduce, that many many people seek out medical help to correct. It’s a horrible loss. My functioning uterus is a gift, not a disadvantage. You can straight kiss my ovaries, misogynist.
The misogynist doesn’t know he’s a misogynist although his opinion of women is so low that he thinks they should be able to have surgery be rescued from a function any housecat can easily handle. I have a feeling that if a woman’s watch were to break, he’d tell her there’s a clock on the stove…
“So, basically, you’re trying to protect the poar lil’ wimmenz who can’t do anything to help themselves. Poar little disempowered wimmenz!”
Your caricature of Mike’s post sounds awfully similar to the actual reasoning employed by many people here, who argue that abortion somehow “takes advantage” of women who, acting entirely of their own free will, choose to terminate their unwanted pregnancies, and that it therefore must be banned or severely restricted in order to stop these poor, dumb women from hurting themselves, or failing that, they must at least be forced to view ultrasound images because they are completely ignorant of the basic biological facts of pregnancy.
“The misogynist doesn’t know he’s a misogynist although his opinion of women is so low that he thinks they should be able to have surgery be rescued from a function any housecat can easily handle.”
Right, it’s misogynist to believe that women should have the ability to do something that you believe is immoral. Your logic is completely insane.
I’m not a misogynist, and I feel really sad for you that you think that any man that thinks that women should have body autonomy are also people who want to “use women like an inflatable doll”….?
Like honestly, what must your world be like that makes you jump to that conclusion? So sad.
@Mike: A pro-choice woman who said what you said, while she would engaging in anti-feminist rhetoric, can’t have male privilege. And with your post on, “But if a pro-choice woman…!” you have–congratulations, by the way–taken this page straight out of Derailing for Dummies. You’ve even invoked the “best part” by not actually having any specific pro-choice woman in mind! Any old one will do! But because they (supposedly) use anti-feminist language, it’s okay for you to do it, even though you’re a man and have male privilege.
Again, women do not need men like you as our advocates. Especially men who look at pregnant women and immediately superimpose the word “WEAK” over them. Women are perfectly strong, capable individuals on their own, pregnancy or otherwise, with no need of abortion to come along and “fix” them (since they aren’t broken), and no need of men like you to tell them why they aren’t good enough because they have the audacity to be performing a function literally as natural as breathing.
To anyone who still thinks feminism is irrelevant, Mike here is exhibit letter A why that is not the case.
Joan- explain how you can be so acutely aware of the basic biological facts of pregnancy (a heartbeat at 18 days, brain waves at 8 weeks, a perfectly formed little body at 10 weeks that only needs to grow)- and still support ripping children limb from limb. It’s because you CHOOSE to delude yourself to rationalize doing what you want to do. Ultrasounds crush these delusions before it’s too late. When women look at the face of their own child that they are about to kill, anyone with a shred of humanity will spare their baby.
Abortion is anti-woman. It’s an affront to the very nature of womanhood. Any attempts to shed light of this truth is a pro-woman act.
“Abortion is anti-woman. It’s an affront to the very nature of womanhood. Any attempts to shed light of this truth is a pro-woman act.”
And if you respect women as autonomous moral agents who are capable of reasoning for themselves and accepting responsibility for the actions they freely choose to take as such, then you should support their right to do something even if you do consider it “anti-woman”.
Alice…I DID have a pro-choice woman in mind: my pro-choice girlfriend. We’ve had this conversation several times, that women should be allowed to the same freedom over their own bodies that men have. She is not anti-feminist, far from it!
You know what they say about assumptions, Alice!
Mike,
You flunked high school biology, didn’t you? You are aware that without the man’s sperm cells, a baby can’t exist. I would say, then, that yes the male has a required physical responsibilities.
Although perhaps if the man has your attitude, the woman is better off finding a real man to raise her child.
Mike, Mike, Mike.
You want to have sex with women but think that if the woman’s body functions as a woman and she gets pregnant (because that’s what women do), she is somehow downtrodden, oppressed and in need of surgery to cut her child from her. You don’t want women functioning as women and see pregnancy as a huge biological injustice. Take away a woman’s inherent womanhood and what you have is nothing more than an object, a plaything- the warm inflatable doll. When you want to love a woman, respect her body and take responsibility for a child you made together, then you truly a man. Until then, you are a little boy and a woman is your adult toy. It’s not about her bodily autonomy- it’s about alleviating yourself from treating her like an actual human being.
Jacqueline is also putting her finger on another key difference between pro-life advocates and abortion advocates.
Abortion advocates think women are wrong due to pregnancy and must be fixed by abortion. Never mind that pregnancy isn’t a bad thing or an unnatural one. Women get pregnant and that’s bad!
Pro-life advocates think killing the unborn is wrong. The starting point is different. We’re not coming along to fix women; we don’t think they’re bad to start off with. We do think women are just as capable of making bad or wrong decisions as anyone else (human beings do not go on pedestals, thank you very much), and we also think that abortion has a number of other negative effects–aside from the murder of the unborn–that are worth discussing, which includes the “abortion hurts women” side of the conversation. But that’s not why abortion is wrong. Abortion is wrong because it unjustly kills an innocent human. Any attempts to get anti-feminism out of that are projection.
Mike wrote, as a supposed satire of a “pro-life” sign:
“I could never begin to understand the complexity of Women’s reproductive rights at such a young age”
You seriously think this is comparable to what’s been presented on the Flickr page in question? This question-begging, red-herring-laden example of yours really doesn’t advance your case. As an illustration:
“I could never begin to understand the social nuances/dynamics/conundrums, the realpolitik, and the pragmatic imperatives involved in the legalization of my doctor’s right to murder my baby sister in Mommy’s tummy.”
(What, exactly, is so difficult about the idea that “dismembering live children is a bad thing”? Does it take a particular type of nuance-laden Ph.D. program to raise one to a sufficient level of stupidity to embrace it as a “moral right”?)
@Mike: Ah, so no “best part” for you! :( And you came so close to the holy grail of that particular derailing tactic, too. Oh well. You hit all the other points exact.
Joan,
All human beings are autonomous moral agents, but no way do I support their “rights” to do immoral things to other human beings. Abortion is not just anti-woman, it KILLS A HUMAN BEING. No human of any gender has that autonomy. Women are no exception. You degrade women by suggesting that we need to kill our children in order to have self-determination. Would you argue that a man needs to be able to kill other humans in order to be an autonomous moral agent?
Ugh….sometimes I can’t believe I was ever pro “choice.”……Abortion is mean. It’s unjust, it’s cruel and bloody, it’s selfish, it’s insulting, it’s destructive. Women exercising “bodily autonomy” by ripping apart their own babies’ bodies…..My mind is reeling. How anyone, in this day and age, with our understanding of biology, can actually support abortion blows my damn mind. This is killing, pure and simple, killing for convenience. We don’t like the word “guilt.” We don’t want to think we can’t do something. But there are some things we ought never do. Killing our babies should be absolutely unthinkable. Pro-choice women take pre-natal vitamins and see their ob-gyn and quit smoking….but when the child isn’t “wanted,” it’s simply a “choice.” This isn’t liberty. This is chaos. There is a difference between true liberty and LICENSE. License is what pro-aborts want. Not liberty. They just want to do what they want to do, when they want to do it. The pro-abortion movement is destructive and deluded.
“Abortion advocates think women are wrong due to pregnancy and must be fixed by abortion. Never mind that pregnancy isn’t a bad thing or an unnatural one. Women get pregnant and that’s bad!”
People who are pro-choice believe that pregnancy is not something that is unqualifiedly good or desirable, which means that at least sometimes, it is bad or undesirable. Therefore the argument resolves to whether or not a woman should be able to take actions to end something that she, as a rational, autonomous moral agent, has determined falls under the latter category for her personally.
“Would you argue that a man needs to be able to kill other humans in order to be an autonomous moral agent?”
If they’re growing inside him and he has determined that this arrangement is not something he wants for himself? Absolutely.
Mike @ 11:31 AM – for starters – I don’t think you can get pregnant – but then again – you can get knocked up, though you might not enjoy such an experience.
Your argument is non-sensical: you’re stating that killing her own child gives a female the same freedom as a male.
In effect, obligations to treat other human beings with compassion and mercy may be rejected.
So speaking of assumptions – you make a huge one: you assume the child is not a human being worthy of life.
That’s called “begging the question” – a logical fallacy.
Mike, that is a convenient position. But when you say, in effect, “I don’t get pregnant or give birth, so I can’t have a say in protecting the unborn from killing”, aren’t you opening the door for any number of things? For example, “I’m not the husband of that woman, so I can’t have a say in whether or not he beats his wife.” Or, “I don’t have a big farm to maintain, so I can’t have a say as to whether or not it’s okay to have slaves.”
Seems like a cop-out. Men need to have a moral backbone. We need real men to step up and protect women and children, not run out on them and allow them to be harmed.
And for anyone who still doesn’t understand that contraception and abortion are two sides of the same coin, please know that even the liberal Supreme Court justices have agreed that the two are inseparable:
http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/01/contraception-leads-to-abortion-come.html
If the pro-aborts on the Supreme Court can see it, you should too.
Joan, give me an example of another bad, undesirable situation where I am morally justified in killing another human being to improve my circumstances.
And let not forget that in 99% of these cases, the woman willingly chose to get into that bad, undesirable situation that she must now kill her way out of.
Jacqueline’s clearly grasping at straws. Who’s saying there’s anything “wrong” with the female body? Nobody’s body functions exactly the way a person wants to on its own. Medicine affirms our human dignity. And abortion is another (routine) medical procedure. It isn’t an expression of the “defectiveness” of the body–to say that would be to imply that we should never rely on medicine for anything.
Oh, and way to trivializie the whole childbearing thing. Yep, it’s like a walk in the park. Never mind that in this lovely Western industrialized nation women still suffer from gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, hypertension, hemorrhaging…what a load of garbage, to imply that women should just have kids without concern for their physical and emotional well-being. All in service of an embryo or fetus. Sorry but the one thing I own in this world is my body, and any new combo of my unique and wonderful DNA ain’t leaving it without my consent.
Joan, so growing inside another person is what gives one person the right to kill another? Do you forget (AGAIN) that the mother is solely responsible for conceiving the person who is growing within her?
Apparently, the concept of murder is lost of you, but you really have no understanding of responsibility either?
“Do you forget (AGAIN) that the mother is solely responsible for conceiving the person who is growing within her?”
So.what.
“…and any new combo of my unique and wonderful DNA ain’t leaving it without my consent.”
Um… I recommend taking a high-school biology course. An unborn baby isn’t a combo of your “unique and wonderful DNA.” It’s a combo of your DNA and that of his/her biological father’s. The baby has its OWN unique, wonderful DNA, and you implicitly consented to the creation of that child when you consented to engaging in the act that is meant to create babies.
Seriously, if you’re so proud about your body and your fertility, how about learning the basics of human reproduction?
Krys,
Find a DSM IV and look up “narcissist.” And potentially “anti-social personality disorder.” It will floor you.
Krys said: All in service of an embryo or fetus. Sorry but the one thing I own in this world is my body, and any new combo of my unique and wonderful DNA ain’t leaving it without my consent.
The combo is not all your DNA – meaning it’s not you.
I take it since you are claiming ownership/ full absolute power over another human being – albeit much smaller/younger, you’re very “own” child, you’re okay with another human exercising absolute power over you?
Mercy need not be shown – right?
“Joan, give me an example of another bad, undesirable situation where I am morally justified in killing another human being to improve my circumstances.”
As far as I’m aware, there are no other situations where one human being is, biologically-speaking, absolutely dependent on another for its survival. Pregnancy is in a class of its own because there is nothing else like it.
“And let not forget that in 99% of these cases, the woman willingly chose to get into that bad, undesirable situation that she must now kill her way out of.”
What about cases where a woman willingly chose to get into a situation that turned out to be something entirely different, in such a way that she could not possibly have foreseen? By this I mean a pregnancy that is in some way damaged, i.e. ectopic, Down Syndrome, etc. You can’t claim that she acted irresponsibly in bringing it about, or that she’s acting capriciously or out of convenience in wanting to terminate it.
Joan, a person’s dependence on another isn’t justification to KILL. It’s a moral mandate to CARE. My mother is O2-dependent and wheelchair bound, and I would never use her need of assistance as rationale to kill her. I see it as my duty to care for her, since she is not only a human being, but my mother. Every child aborted is the son or daughter of their killer. That should nausiate you. I know it doesn’t, but it should. Do you even want to be a decent person that cares for others or do you want to keep finding justifications to harm others to pursue your own ego-centric whims?
You missed my point. I’m not talking about women who get pregnant on purpose- I’m talking about women that had sex willingly and conceived a child that they don’t want, yet made anyway because they wanted to have sex. That’s the vast, vast, VAST majority of abortions: women who have sex knowing that sex causes babies and who intend to kill the babies that created when they chose to have sex.
“Joan, a person’s dependence on another isn’t justification to KILL. It’s a moral mandate to CARE. My mother is O2-dependent and wheelchair bound, and I would never use her need of assistance as rationale to kill her.”
Being in a wheelchair or requiring an oxygen tank is not being categorically biologically dependent on another person. Again, only pregnancy meets this definition.
Commenting on a post from CC
CC says:
May 26, 2011 at 6:55 am
“To “joke” about why women have abortions underscores how the anti-choice movement hates women. Priceless.”
William’s response: Yes, that anti-choice movement is also known as the Abortion Choice, or Pro-abortion, or pro-butchering of baby movement, or pro-slaughter of baby movement, or pro-exploitation of women and young women and girls by illicit sex, statutory rape, coercsion, harassment, beating, and murder and rape movement.
In other words, slaughtering babies via abortion is as anti-Choice as one can get, for you take away all of the choices that slaughtered human being was going to have, and, in the case of women who refuse abortion, the abortion industry, and their foot soldiers and street terrorists, have, and do, coerce, harass, beat, and murder women who refuse abortion.
Abortion – the Ultimate in Anti-Choice movements!
Krys, Joan, CC:
the website wouldn’t let me load my picture, so go here:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leut3zxRZZ1qf8yek.gif
You profoundly missed the point and apparently nothing penetrates that heart of yours: The point is, the greater the level of dependence, the more one should care for another not destroy them. If there were an alternative universe where my mother’s dependence could equal my dependence on her before I was born, I would certainly care for her to my utmost, not use her need as a rationalization to murder her. The point is: the level of dependency only increases one’s obligation to the child THEY CREATED! THEY, THEY created the child. You seem to forget that the child is only dependent because the mother chose to create them in that state, yet it’s your rationalization to kill your own son/daughter.
Once again, do you want to be a person that cares for others or someone that looks for excuses to harm other people for selfish gain? It must be a very cold life, always looking for justifications for harm others rather than owning up to your humanity.
Mike,
High-fiving over killing babies. How absolutely charming. (sarcasm in case you couldn’t tell).
You’re not worthy of being called a man.
I’m sending them a high-five to congratulate them for speaking their minds against petty people like you!
Regardless of your qualifications (whatever they may be), I am a man! I am a man who supports women. I support women’s rights to reproductive freedom, whether that entails being personally anti-abortion, or whether it entails getting an abortion!
And yes, I am very charming ;)
Yeah I understand that. And I apologize for sinking to ad hominem attacks. But abortion is a very emotional subject for me – especially in regards to men who allow their women to kill their own children. (I’m being sincere)
I support women too and their choices and decisions. They can do whatever they please – as long as those choices don’t infringe on someone else’s rights. And in the case of abortion, their choice to have an abortion infringes on the rights of her child to live. She doesn’t have to raise the baby – she just shouldn’t have the “right” to kill it.
(I’m mostly Libertarian so I’m all about individual choice. Women are awesome so sure, they can choose to do whatever they want! Just as long as they don’t kill someone.)
And I know you’re a male – that’s not up for debate. I was more speaking to the fact that any male who makes a child with a woman and leaves her while she’s still pregnant is rather immature and selfish, a child of sorts.
But again, as I don’t know you personally, I shouldn’t have directed the comment at you specifically – it was just my frustration at men who do contribute to making the baby and then say, “Whoops! Who knew sex led to pregnancy? I’m outta here!” and just leaves the poor woman all alone. How is that pro-woman?
Commenting on Mike’s post:
Mike says:
May 26, 2011 at 12:30 pm
” … I am a man! I am a man who supports women. I support women’s rights to reproductive freedom, whether that entails being personally anti-abortion, or whether it entails getting an abortion! … ”
William’s response to Mike’s comment posted above: Mike,
The term “Reproductive Freedom” refers to the freedom to reproduce, not to the freedom to slaughter and kill another living human being.
The elective-induced abortion is committed against a living human being who is the result of reproduction, which indicates that the mommy and daddy, or the lab, in cases of IVF, Cloning, etc., have already reproduced.
The abortion is not a matter of Reproductive Freedom, for reproduction has already taken place, hence the abortion, the cruel, violent, vicious, sadistic, barbaric killing of another human being.
Remember, Reproductive Rights means people have the right to reproduce.
Abortion means butcher and kill innocent, new human beings over the course of even beyond nine months of the persons’ lives. It is not Reproduction, and it has nothing to do with reproduction, but it has everything to do with violent aggression, and slaughter, of another person.
Mike,
You don’t support women. In fact, you support killing unborn women.
Women deserve BETTER than abortion.
I don’t support anyone’s “choice,” whether they are male or female, to kill another innocent human being. The fact that you do support the killing of innocent human beings is not something of which you should be proud.
The pro-abort mindset never ceases to amaze me:
ME, ME, ME, MINE, MINE MINE! What’s good for ME, What’s convenient for ME, What I want, what I need, etc.
That’s “toddler logic”. That’s the way a two year old thinks, immaturely and selfishly. But you EXPECT that from a toddler. You’d think that (supposedly) mature, educated adults would know better.
Joanna-I DO support women! You and I don’t agree on when life begins, so we will never see eye to eye. I think abortion should be legal if a woman wants/needs (and by “needs” I mean that in a way that is up to the woman to decide what her body needs), and I don’t agree that aborting the unborn counts as “killing women”
SORRY!
A few points to make:
1) Abortion does not kill an “unborn” baby. “Un” is a prefix to signify that something which has occured has been reversed, such as “Untie” the shoe, or “Unload” the truck,” Then there is the case of the “Undead” who were dead, but now they are not, for now they are the “undead.”
It is because the shoe has been tied that it can now be “untied,” and it is because the truck has been loaded that it can be “unloaded.” The “Undead” had to first die before they could even be considered “Undead,” as in the horror movies.
One cannot be “unborn,” for that would require the person to reverse direction and age and developmental stages in order to revert back into the location from which they were born, which, as of today, is most often still a mother’s or woman’s body, with “born” being the transition from living inside mother’s body to living outside of mother’s body, at which point baby is now even more dependent and vulnerable than he or she was while living and developing inside mother.
The term “Pre-born” baby fits nicely, as does “prental” baby, but “unborn” is impossible because the would require baby already be born, then reverse, or “undo” being born, while baby has not yet been born, making it impossible for baby to even be considered “un-born.”
Abortion does kill a baby, a baby who is already alive, a member of the human race, and a person, a baby who is undergoing the earliest of her developmental stages in a continuum of overlapping developmental stages which do not cease at birth, but continue well into adulhood.
Abortion kills living babies who are either in the embryonic stage of development, fetal stage of development, of the neonatal stage of development. Of course people have aborted babies who were not only already born, in the neonatal stage of development, but people have aborted children who are in other stages of child development as well.
Abortion is a sick, perverted, cruel act of violent aggression and homicide against living human beings, and the Supreme Court betrayed its lack of dignity and honor by finding a provision in the US Constitution to allow abortion where no such provision exists.
Abortion – the Ultimate in Anti-Choice movements!
it was just my frustration at men who do contribute to making the baby and then say, “Whoops! Who knew sex led to pregnancy? I’m outta here!” and just leaves the poor woman all alone. How is that pro-woman?
No, no, LB, you don’t get it. See, it’s pro-woman cuz, like, he’s doing her a FAVOR by ditching her when she’s pregnant! That way, He is helping her to exercise her right to kill her preborn child in order to empower herself and have the same rights as a man. See? ;)
Kel,
Ohh yeah! How could I be so silly? He deigned to grace her with his presence during sex, too, huh? We women should just be sooooo eternally grateful to men who get us pregnant and leave us. Besides, how could we think we are worthy of being the only woman they can be with? ;)
Haha
Um, no, Mike, biology tells us that human beings begin at conception. Ta da. True story.
Even pro-aborts like Naomi Wolf admit that these are babies. I’ve never heard a pro-choice woman refer to her child-in-utero as “my choice” or “my fetus”….And women have the right to NOT reproduce, yes, but they do NOT have the right to kill what they have already created. Once you are pregnant, you are already a mother, you have already reproduced. All one’s choices may lead up to the creation of another little person. That person deserves to be protected under law. Period. There is nothing feminist or liberating about killing a person who was the product of all of these choices, and then throwing them into the garbage. It’s really, really sick.
I say this all the time here, but I’m not even particularly religious. But I cannot believe that our sole purpose is to serve ourselves, I cannot believe we are entitled to whatever we want, whenever we want it, most especially when it destroys another person who has no say in the matter and does not deserve to die.
Mike,
Why are you anti-science?
“Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception). Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.”
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
Life begins at conception, and abortion kills an innocent human life.
If you support abortion, you support the killing of innocent human life.
Am I truly the only pro-life person here who winced at the pictures proclaiming that women get abortions so they can go to the prom or have more tatoos?
Claiming that women have abortions for frivolous reasons is not helping our cause (even if on occasion someone might actually do that). It certainly won’t help convince any pro-aborts. It just convinces them more that we are callous.
All the same, CC, your comment that we “hate women” is way off base. You yourself know from coming here so long that this is not the case. You’ve even admitted it in the past. I’m glad you amended it to “This ‘satire’ is offensive to both ‘post-abortive’ pro-life and pro-choice women who faced difficult decisions.”
That is a statement even I can get behind. A thoughtful comment like this is going to get you more positive attention.
So knock of the “pro-lifers hate women” junk in the future, ‘k?
I think what a lot of you are missing is the idea that some (many) girls and women like sex and do not want to become pregnant and are in fact “using ” the man for sex. I know you know this but I think it needs re stating.
I understand what you are saying about men using abortion to use women and how they should step up… But you ignore the fact that some women dont WANT them to step up. Let ne explain
A good friend of mine in her senior year of collge thought she was pregnant and told her boyfriend. He pledged undying love offered marriage
financial support and all jazz. While sweet, the girl responded that she didn’t want to be in a place that at only 22 she needed to be supported, she did not want a man to propose marriage to her out of obligation.
It turns out that she wasnt pregnant. Crisis averted. I say this because Many of you make it seem that the only reason a woman would want an abortion is because she is unsupported, which as a woman myself I find offensive
Lana,
I feel sorry for those women, because they’ve been taught that sex is divorced from having babies, and that’s not the case at all. Sex is the act that is meant to CREATE babies, and if you’re not prepared to accept that consequence, you shouldn’t be having sex at all (no birth control is 100% effective, so there’s always a chance).
You know what?! I had my first child at 16. And to this day I would not change one thing about it. I wouldn’t go back and decide to have her later in life. Nor would I change the fact that my husband and I have the 4 most wonderful children we could ever hope for. I feel that we were blessed to be given the children we have. If you don’t see children as a blessing, but rather a hindrance then I’m sorry I don’t think you have a heart. They’re children, living, beating hearts, unique finger prints. This isn’t ALIENS! There’s no need to rip them out of the womb because our “life” just isn’t ready. Obviously your uterus was! Get over it! If you really don’t have a heart for them give them to a family who does! Someone out there is desperate for a child and can’t have one. No matter how hard you try you can NOT justify abortion, just as you can’t justify slaves or genocide.
As a mother it is US who are to protect our children! Protect, not murder! I would gladly lay my life down for my children!
Hi Lana,
Not being supported is a factor. No need to be personally offended by facts.
60% of abortions are coerced/forced. Women who do not want to abort find themselves with zero support and only have others around them urging abortion. The number one killer of pregnant women is homicide. Countless stories posted on this blog are of men killing their girlfriends because she wouldn’t abort.
God bless the men that stand up and do the right thing!! I am glad they are out there!!
In a “crisis” pregnancy it is best to eliminate the crisis and not the baby.
Mike wrote:
I support women’s rights to reproductive freedom, whether that entails being personally anti-abortion, or whether it entails getting an abortion!
(*sigh*) Oh, for crying out loud… we need a “FAC” page on this blog: “Frequently Answered Canards”. To illustrate:
“I support a woman’s right to parental freedom, whether that entails personally loving and protecting her children, or whether it entails killing/dismembering her children who simply don’t have the sense to stop being colicky, screaming, misbehaving, eating too much, getting in the way, etc.”
See the point? Unless you’re arguing that it’s morally licit to kill an innocent human being in order to improve living conditions for oneself, I don’t see how this helps your case, at all.
@William: I’m sorry, but your grammar assertion is wrong. “Un-” is a prefix that means “not.” It can mean the reversal of something, but that is unnecessary (yay, wordplay!). Unlikely, unthinkable, undesirable, unwelcome, unheard, unnoticed, unreasonable, unwilling, unthinking, unabridged, unedited, unvarnished, unaltered, undiluted, and unadulterated are just the few un- words that came to mind off the top of my head where un- is used to mean “not” rather than “having been [quality] and then loosing it.” I am 100% confident that there are literally thousands of other examples.
I agree with everything after your grammatical bits, though. :)
Paladin- I don’t see your point because I don’t agree
(??) Mike, if you don’t see my point, then how on earth could you agree or disagree, at all?
Bahaha. This lady with the “Abortion allows teen girls to go to prom” sign is ridiculous. Prom is just so important you know. So important in fact that teenage girls must kill their kids to go. Abortion is so sick and disgusting just like the people who support it.
Joanna,
You can feel sorry if you wish for women who want to divorce sex from procreation .. I imagine they feel equally sorry for you. You say that babies are a consequence of sex, I thought you thought they were a blessing. Which one is it? A blessing from god or consequence or dirty behavior
Carla, I have no issue with you helping women who dont want abortions keep their babies. I do take issue with the assumption” your a woman you must automatically love the man you slept with and want him to marry you and want the baby. I think this attitude is insulting. If I was seeking an abortion and a counselor assumed I just needed support… She would be vastly misconstruing my circumstances. If you want to fight abortion, please understand the complexity of what you are fighting and don’t oversimplify the motives of women
I took offense only because if a pro life counselor
Wow! I guess women have a right to do with themselves as they see fit. To bad the babies cant speak for themselves. Oh, excuse me – fetus’s. or embryo’s as so many call them. Is the issue really the right to do what I want with my body, or is it really – I dont care about anyone but myself? I was pregnant at 17. Of course, I had that choice. Abortion. I was young and stupid…. thinking sex was love. It was just a way to get some kind of acceptance really. I knew the consequences of unprotected sex. They taught me that in school. Like they still do. I did not think that would ever happen to me. Surprise – it did! I wish my school would have taught me the other end of it all. I wish my school would have suggested – get married, then have children. My parents, I wish they would have said more about it, too. I dont know if I would have listened anyway. By human nature we are all self seeking and self centered. I do know that my best friend, she made the mistake of sex before marriage too. Yep – you guessed it, she got pregnant as well. She chose Abortion. So, I have seen both sides. My best friend to this day, wonders if her child was a girl or a boy. She wonders as she looks at her children now running around, what would my baby have grown up to be? What was reallly no big deal to her at one time, has now become a scar and a nightmare that she can hardly forget, and the scar.. well…. would it ever heal? The nightmare, will it ever go a way? As for me and my decision, well…. my daughter was adopted, because really how can a child take care of a child? I have a night mare and a scar, too! It was not because of Abortion, but because of a poor choice from the beginning. When I said yes, and should of said, no. Although, my daughter got to live, I did not raise her. She does not even recognize me as her mother. So, really, the one who had the abortion and the one who did not, they both had something in common – scars that may never heal, nightmares that dont seem to go a way. Thank God, there is Grace for us all.
A dirty behavior? Where did you get that? Christian teaching (notably Catholic teaching) holds that sex is pure and the ultimate expression of love and self-giving, an act whose fruit is a new life for the parents to love just as much (if not more) than they love eachother! Children as (yes) a natural consequence of that loving union- a gift from God. Now, the perversions of sex that you mention, using people as objects- that is very dirty and causes untold destruction and heartache. That is what we oppose for the sake of all involved. Since 88% of dismembered children were products of non-married sexual relations between two people not committed to loving eachother and their family, this perversion not only destroys hearts and bodies, but kills human beings as well.
And yes, I am very charming
I bet you are. The proabort men I know are charming as well, but all that glitters is not gold.
Often after you get to know what’s beneath the fake charm, you will find a lying, narcissistic creep.
Who is assuming that, Lana?
I also help women in abortion recovery. All of us wanted support, help and someone to come alongside of us to say YOU CAN DO THIS!
As a post abortive mom I totally understand the “complexities” of what I am fighting.
Not sure what you are arguing. Maybe you just want to vent at the prolife movement?
Lana,
I was speaking purely from a biological standpoint. Biologically, sex creates babies. That is its purpose. It is tragic that so many young girls aren’t aware of this.
On an emotional level, babies are a blessing. I have three children on earth, two in heaven, and one due to be born in December. All six of them are incredible blessings. And, by the way, I LOVE sex! My husband and I are quite good at it, as you can see from our six children. :) Sex is a wonderful gift, but it’s misused when it is outside of the context of a committed marriage. You should read “Good News about Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West to find out just how much Catholics love and revere sex, as well as the wonderful blessings that come from it.
Incidentally, my new nephew is an incredible blessing too. His birthmother decided to give him up for adoption, and in doing so she made my stepsister’s dream of motherhood come true. I am so grateful to her for her gift to our family, and so thankful she chose life and not death for her baby boy.
Since abortion advocates are all about controlling their bodies, perhaps they can find a way to eat food without ever having to go to the bathroom. I mean, nobody is FOR going to the bathroom, right?
If men can’t oppose abortion because they’re physically incapable of getting pregnant… Then, can women be morally opposed to rape? I mean, we don’t have the rape-sticks… Men can get aborted, too. I have no problem with them opposing it, since they can be victims- just like women oppose rape because they can be victims of it.
They have taken down the pro-life images. :(
Joanna,
I agree with you. We need to spend more time teaching our children that sex is a wonderful beautiful thing when two people are committed to each other in love. Outside of love and committment, sex is just that – sex. A self gratifying fleshy pleasure. You know, I am not for abortion in any way, shape or form. Some of these women, they really are blind to what love is. Screaming and yelling and name calling and on and on and on, wont show them love either. Hate, never gets us anywhere. Compassion, mercy, understanding, with Love… I bet would get us further along in this issue.
God is love. God is Mercy. God is kind, yes even to the sinner. Yes, even to the audelterous and the murderer. If all of the pro-life people would just pray, and love, and not hate with their words and actions. I really believe that God would move on our behalf. WE are to busy with our agenda’s. God is not pleased with either side of this issue. He hates that his children are being slaughtered, but he hates how we are going about defending it too. Two wrongs, do not make a right. Just remember, we will all stand before God one day and give an account for all that has been here. I would love to see abortion stopped. It is heart breaking. The blood of our children is calling to their God, just like it did right before Israel came out of Egypt and just like it did right before God came in Christ. We better believe God Hears it. God will ultimatly be the avenger of all the cries that are coming up before him. He will take vengence. I think that those that teach – will be held more accountable than those who are being taught. I am not talking about christian doctrine. Our Govt. is allowing abortion to be taught. People in very High Positions and people making money off of this hideous teaching will be held more accountable, than those falling for a lie.
Murder is not ok. There will be a judgement day. I pray for those who are believing a lie, that they see the truth. The truth needs to be told, in Love. It is Gods Love, that brings people to repentance.
Oooh, what a good discussion! i am only a little bit down the page but I have to jump in and say a few things.
Number one, Jacqueline. You are SPOT ON! I am loving your fire!
Number two, Denise Noe, some women ARE irresponsible and parenthood makes them GROW UP and stop being so selfish. I watched that happen to my employee. She was post-abortive and a drunk (came to work drunk) and immature and terrible with money. You should see her now. She grew up. She is a responsible wife and mother. She too used to save money for tattoos. Now she saves money to buy things for her daughter. (No dig on anyone with tattoos btw… just saying this girl couldn’t pay her bills but always had money for a tat or her boyfriend’s tats.) So sometimes children are God’s divine way of saying to people “Snap out of it! This world isn’t just about YOU.”
I know my son did that to me. ;-)
Third, you know Mike if men would step up and support and protect women while we were pregnant we wouldn’t “need” abortion. I am watching a situation right now where the mom doesn’t want an abortion and the father is pushing one like crazy and acting like a spoiled brat over the fact that she won’t kill their kid. He will not help her one bit. If she starves or can’t pay her bills or has to pay doctor’s bills… so be it. He. will. not. help. so. there.
Abortion is how men control women. Thats all it is and your sexists rants prove it.
Btw, you slipped and called the unborn a baby. Did you mean to admit that truth? And “father of the pregnancy”? Did you go to school to learn how to sound so bizarre? I never ONCE said “I am the mother of this pregnancy. My husband here is the father of this pregnancy”. Now that my boy is 4 years old I have never NEVER said “This is my former pregnancy. Isn’t he cute?”
You are trying so hard to dehumanize the unborn and it just makes you sound cold!
Okay, back to reading. Awesome comments, pro-lifers!
Joanna and Jacquline,
If you know of a way to introduce more reverence into the realm of sexuality I support it. No qualms there. I don’t really support using marriage as a pre-rec for sex for a laundry list of reasons, but in general I co-sign your thoughts
Carla my point is only that pregnancy is an enormous amount of sacrifice. To tell women you will help them is nice if what they need is help, it howeve misses the point if they are fundamentally unwilling to sacrifice
I apologize for the typos in my last post I’m witting from my iPhone and couldnt read what I wrote before it was posted oyyyyyy
Absolutely, Lana. It’s called Catholic teaching on human sexuality; specifically, Theology of the Body by John Paul II. It’s amazing.
Mike, you do NOT support women. My friend who is fighting against her boyfriend who wants her to abort is carrying a DAUGHTER. An unborn girl. An unborn WOMAN. Half of all aborted people WERE WOMEN.
And no, you are not charming “Hi. i’m Mike. I want to stick my penis in you and use your body to bring me to sexual climax. If your body DARES to do what its supposed to do and uses my sperms to create a new human being I am going to take you to the clinic and click my credit card on the counter (hey, I’ll pay. I’m a real man.) and have them suck our child out of you. Cause I totally respect women.(wink, wink)”
Yeah. Not charming. Creepy is more like it.
Krys, your post made no sense. We don’t use medicine when we are healthy. So what exactly were you arguing? The fact that you call abortion medicine shows that you pro-aborts think pregnancy is a disease. I don’t know why biology 101 is so hard for you pro-aborts to understand but humans reproduce other humans by gestating our young inside the wombs of female humans. Its not a disease. Its how we were designed to reproduce. Seriously, WHY is this so hard for you guys to comprehend?
pregnancy = normal
cancer= disease
Re: “Abortion is how men control women. Thats all it is.”
Ah yes, so any dude who knocks up a girl and wants her to keep his child is unqualifiably good….not. Reading a lovely story about a Baptist pastor in New England who raped a 15-yo in his congregation and sent her away to have the baby…AFTER he excommunicated her from the church and made her apologize for her *indiscretion.*
Dear Jill Stank, why not cover THIS story about reproductive coercion? Because oh yes, abortion didn’t factor into the equation. She had the baby and it doesn’t matter how the girl feels. Where is her healing? Hmm? Did the people at the hopsital *catch* the abuse? Where were all the lovely pro-life advocates????
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2011/05/17/judge_to_hear_motions_in_nh_church_rape_case/
Lana, same could be said for women whose children are already born. “Thats nice you said you would help Andrea Yates but what if she is unwilling to sacrifice?” or Susan Smith, or Casey Anthony? What if someone had stepped up and offered to help them with their issues so they didn’t kill their kids? What if those mothers had refused that help and still moved forward with their murderous plans? Justified?
No. No one would say that.
Abortion is the same thing. Because parents have a fundamental DUTY to protect their children. In fact, human beings have a FUNDAMENTAL DUTY to protect other defenseless human beings. period.
LOL – I always have to laugh when I read the tripe about how pro-lifers are “anti-sex,” and how we think sex is “dirty.”
We believe sex within the confines of marriage to be the healthiest, most secure, and most enjoyable sex. That’s really it. If you’re monogamous, you don’t have STD worries. If you have children and you’re not of the contraceptive “children are oopsies” mindset, you can likely provide an emotionally secure environment in which to welcome children. And enjoyable – well, I find the idea of someone who knows what I like – and vice versa – to be pretty awesome. And for us to know we’ve only given that to each other is even more awesome. If you think that’s twisted and “anti-sex,” well… I think you need to consider that perhaps you have a warped idea of what sexual intimacy is really supposed to be.
I know one popular couple I could point to who I’m betting really enjoys sex. The Duggars. I’ll give you three – or maybe 20ish – guesses as to how I know this.
Oh, but wait – you say Jim Bob oppresses Michelle and makes her have sex without birth control and there’s no way anyone could POSSIBLY ENJOY sex if they’re NOT using birth control?! *gasp*
I’ve got news for you. The children of pro-lifers are evidence that WE HAVE SEX and don’t think it’s dirty.
How many times have I heard people say to pro-lifers with several children, “Don’t you know what causes that?” I think a great response would be, “Why, yes, I do know, and I ENJOY it!” :D
Sorry for the rant. I just get sick of the “you just want women to never have sex!” crowd. Pssh.
whoa whoa whoa, sydney, try to leave my penis and climaxing out of this…I never said anything along those lines, you are editorializing in a bizarre way
Kel, why can’t you accept that pro-choicers support every woman’s reproductive choices?
I support the Duggars’ right to have as many babies as they want, while at the same time supporting a woman’s right to abort a baby if she doesn’t want to be pregnant.
What a joke–this def. isn’t an argument about biology, about the *humanity* of an unborn child. I wouldn’t care if I had a fully-formed, absolutely sentient little old man sitting in my uterus. My house, my rules, get out if I don’t want you there, okay? If that sounds selfish it’s because, well, it is. IT is not my place to judge why a woman gets an abortion, just as it’s not my reason to judge why she has children. Being able to make basic decisions about one’s body–what to feed it, what medicines to give it, when to have sex, when to end a pregnancy that results in sex–is integral to being a rights-bearing PERSON. No I don’t support being able to kill BORN PEOPLE because, existing outside my body, I have no claims over them. I’m staunchly anti- violence, death penalty, war, etc. for that reason, because of the divide between self and other, inside my body and outside my body.
And Sydney–how about we simply expect men to…respect women’s reproductive choices? Now that’s a novel idea. None of this regressive BS about “sex inside of marriage only” because life doesn’t usually work out like that. It’d be STELLAR to find somebody and know “they’re the one,” etc., but not everybody is so lucky. Why can’t people be expected to respect each other in ANY relationship?
That’s great to hear, Mike. You’d be the first pro-choicer here who said they support the Duggars.
Kel,
Who said anything about the Duggars? People have too many options these days. Way back when in a “little Indiana town” it might have been possible to meet a good man or woman and be content settling down at age 20. But now people are more mobile, less easily-satisfied. They can travel, get educated, find careers. Means they’re not willing to settle for the high school sweetheart, and so it really isn’t realistic to demand that everybody simply wait until marriage to have sex. What if you meet “the one” when you’re 30? If you aren’t completely asexual, that would be a nightmarish and pointless expercise in self-restraint. Sex can be totally respectful in a nonmarital context. I love my daughter’s high school health ed teacher–the sex ed curriculum was fantastic. No moralizing–just the expectation set forth that relationships are honest, filled with communication, and respectful. And that encompasses having the ability to say “no, I don’t want to have sex” right now.
Also, I support a woman’s reproductive choices before she becomes pregnant. After that, she has already reproduced.
I do not support ending a child’s life in order to support someone else’s choice to maintain an empty uterus.
Re: I do not support ending a child’s life in order to support someone else’s choice to maintain an empty uterus.
So would it be ok if at 22 weeks awoman induced labor? Who cares what kind of life the kid has
No I don’t support being able to kill BORN PEOPLE because, existing outside my body, I have no claims over them.
Are you therefore claiming ownership of the preborn child within your womb?
I have claims over my born children. I am required to feed and clothe them. If I do not, I am legally responsible for their harm and/or death.
Children at 22 weeks have been born before due to preeclampsia and other conditions. This is to save the life of the mother and the child’s life as well.
This is not to terminate a child’s life deliberately, nor is it done because “I just wanted the invader out of my uterus.”
You care about the quality of life of a child you would have killed in an abortion? Really? Interesting.
Why can’t that happen then? If you think abortion should be criminalized in the US then I guarantee that you will be seeing lots more infants in the NICU from women who–yes–don’t want to deal with a uterine “intruder.” Lots more babies with cerebral palsy, debilitating conditions because their moms were forced to continue unwanted pregnancies and jumped ship at the first chance they could.
Yah I care about the QOL of born individuals. I guess you can’t wrap your prolife head around that one…keep rolling with more dumb arguments about whether I think it’s permissible to murder a 2-year-old.
Haha I am glad many of you pro life women are having great se with your husbands, really. I wasn’t really implying that you were anti sex just anti un married sex and anti recreational sex which is true isn’t it?
I think we all have a different definition of using and it’s coloring our perception. You think your husband is not using you by having sex with out contraception and being open to a baby
I would think my boyfriend was using me by refusing to use a condom or only wanting to have
sex if a baby would be made. What a selfish
jerk, I would think, putting his own pleasure ( sex
wo a condom) above the health and safety of my
body. he is using me, benefitting from sex when he doesn’t even have to carry the baby, I would feel very used indeed
I would think your boyfriend is using you when he’s having sex with you outside of a committed marriage, Lana. You’re absolutely right about that. He wants all of the pleasure with none of the responsibility. Also, hormonal contraception detracts from the health and safety of your body; it does not help it.
Once again, pleasure is not the purpose of sex. It’s a pleasant side effect, but the purpose of sex (biologically) is to create babies.
I encourage you to read Contraception: Why Not? by Dr. Janet Smith if you really want to understand the Catholic perspective on sex and contraception.
Anti-choice organizations place fetal rights over the rights of women. End of story.
Ninek – Your numbers are hilarious… 54% of all abortions happen to women who are on birth control so that somehow equates to birth control only being 50% effective? lol I think you might be missing a few factors in your equation lol
Oh and BTW hijacking a flicker account is about as childish a thing as destroying your neighbor’s shoebox diorama of the four food groups… Absolutely juvenile….
Lana, maybe that’s the difference between being in a marriage and being in a sexual relationship.
You think the only reason a husband wouldn’t wear a condom is “to get more pleasure?” You think husbands don’t work to provide for the children they help create?
Interesting perspective. Pretty clueless about marriage, but interesting.
Lots more babies with cerebral palsy, debilitating conditions because their moms were forced to continue unwanted pregnancies and jumped ship at the first chance they could.
And families waiting to adopt them.
So, you care about the QOL of born individuals to the extent that you think being dead is better off than having what YOU deem to be a substandard quality of life?
I don’t believe I ever said you thought it was permissible to murder a 2 year old. in fact, i think quite the opposite. What we’re getting at is, whether that toddler is a neonate, fetus, embryo, or zygote, that child is still the same, living child.
Re: So, you care about the QOL of born individuals to the extent that you think being dead is better off than having what YOU deem to be a substandard quality of life?
If that means being dead before birth, than yes. Same living child my rear. I doubt you think the death of a six-week-old embryo is more tragic than the death of, say, Caylee Anthony (whose grandmother, btw, pressured her mother not to get an abortion. Great outcome!)
I doubt you think the death of a six-week-old embryo is more tragic than the death of, say, Caylee Anthony (whose grandmother, btw, pressured her mother not to get an abortion. Great outcome!)
1st of all, no, we don’t think the death is MORE tragic. We think it is EQUALLY AS tragic, because it is. And btw, Caylee would be just as dead had her mother aborted her as she is right now. Equally as tragic.
Same living child my rear.
Prove they aren’t. My children are every bit as much my living children now as they were when I was pregnant with them. They didn’t magically become someone/something different after they passed through my vagina. Vaginas are great, don’t get me wrong, but they’re not that spectacular that they contain some sort of magical essence that makes my kid go from “not a living child” to “living child”.
Thank you, X.
The difference in loss of human life is… absolutely none. There is the same loss of life.
One may be mourned more than the other. We grieve more because we got the time to know and love more. Not because one is worth more intrinsically than the other.
If that means being dead before birth, than yes. Same living child my rear.
So… the children I saw on the ultrasounds and the children to whom I gave birth were… not the same living children?
Jacqueline
That’s the best they can come up with if babies are being killed it’s everyone’s fault but theres. Should the thought ever occur to them that maybe there the haters that just wouldn’t be right. Of course 50 million dead babies and counting should be a clue but why look at the evidence when blaming others has been very effective until now.
So why is it that women take “pregnancy tests” when they’ve missed their periods?
Pregnant: containing a developing embryo, fetus, or unborn offspring within the body.
Why don’t those dumb stores sell clump of cells tests? Makes one wonder……
Mike, you are just playing the part. You play it well, but acting is still not real. Just because it’s a tiny, tiny human, you don’t care. At that second, she IS pregnant. You cannot deny that fact. Well, you can, but you’re just stupid.
The second that she has an abortion. She is no longer pregnant. When a girl/woman gets an abortion, she is considering all the facts for “why she doesn’t want to have a baby/become a MOM.” She’s already a mother no matter what.
Oh, yeah…..at the end of a pregnancy: an office desk pops out! Ouch!!! Oh, yeah. I meant a baby human.
Krys… you have obviously never carried and birthed a child or you wouldn’t say such STUPID things.
SAME CHILD Krys. This is really easy. Follow me on this one. My son did things on ultrasound that he STILL DOES. He crosses his feet a certain way when he is trying to get to sleep. Saw that when he was an early second trimester “fetus” and he still does it at 4. Still sucks the same thumb we saw him sucking on ultrasound. Very active in the womb… still very active now. That personality that I first detected when I carried him can still be seen in his 4 year old self BECAUSE HE IS THE SAME PERSON. He is just at a different stage of development.
“For me to be equal my uterus has to have access to your wallet.”
“Equally as tragic.”
BS. But then again, if you want to grieve for an embryo, be my guest. Doesn’t change the fact that the woman who created that embryo had the final say.
I do have a question. If you think the death of an embryo is as tragic as a fully formed human being and their lives are equally valuable why do pro-lifers merely want abortion illegal, why do they not want women tried as murders? I ask that genuinely. You think abortion is murder, yet you do t treat post abortive women as hardened criminals. Maybe that is because you think women are victims because abortion is legal but let’s say it is illegal, should women who had illegal abortions be sentenced to 25 to life and if not why?
BS. But then again, if you want to grieve for an embryo, be my guest. Doesn’t change the fact that the woman who created that embryo had the final say.
Yes, equally as tragic. And the only thing your rebuttal proves is how absolutely callous you are. Congratulations.
Maybe that is because you think women are victims because abortion is legal but let’s say it is illegal, should women who had illegal abortions be sentenced to 25 to life and if not why?
Not all pro-lifers feel this way, but I’d set the charges as the same as you would in the case of a parent hiring a hitman to kill their child, because it is in essence the same scenario, and the two are analogous.
double-post. Again. -_-
In my opinion, where feminists went wrong is when instead of wanting equality WITH men, they instead saw men as the standard & wanted to, basically, become like men. When recognizing our differences, like the fact that men cannot get pregnant, but women can, the idea was not to embrace our individual characteristics & abilities as members of the opposite sex. Instead, feminists saw our ability as a deficit…a problem…an obstacle. Well, if men can have sex & not get pregnant, then that is what we want too!!! To basically be “womb-less”. Stereotypically, men were the “bread-winner” while women cared for children & the home. That’s not fair! To heck with kids & family! We wanna career too! Men could go out a “sow their wild oats” and be promiscuous while women were suppose to remain a virgin until she gets married. That’s not fair! We wanna sleep around wiothout commitment too! Men get to have sex & if he gets a woman pregnant, he can just avoid all responsibility. That’s not fair! We wanna have sex & avoid all responsiblity for our actions too!!!
Why are MEN the standard & why, to be “equal”, do we have to be like men? Why can’t women be the standard? Why not raise the standard instead of wallowing in the filthy aspects these feminists seem so jealous of? Wouldn’t it be kinda nice if instead of having irresponsible fornication (like men stereotypically do) to make it “fair” & “equal”, lets try to get the guys to have a higher level of character, respect for women, sex, marriage, & fatherhood. Currently, lots of people wanna have sex with each other, but few want to have a baby together. When they are “responsible” & use birth control & it fails, (over 50% of abortions are for women who were using birth control whent hey got pregnant & it failed), then they are “stuck” with doing the next “responsible” thing & aborting…after all, they weren’t trying to have a baby when they had sex. And if he can just walk away, then the woman should be able to also. Like Pres. Obama said, promiscuous women shouldn’t have to be “punished with a baby”…men aren’t!
This all ignores the reality that we are DIFFERENT…and there is nothing wrong with women being different then men. And one of our most amazing differences is our ability to grow a baby in our wombs (female fertility is a HEALTHY condition!!!) & bring forth that new, unique, human being! LIFE. Men can’t do this! We CAN!!! And this is something to celebrate about women, not try to “cure” with pills, patches, shots, devices, & invasive surgery. Destroying the aspect that makes women the most unique, in some grotesque quest to make us like men, does not empower us or make us “equal”. EMBRACING our abilities, raising the standard, & demanding respect BECAUSE of these abilities…DOES empower us. We ARE equal if & when we truly honor the reality & beauty of our differences.
Lana,
I know I am not the only one, but I do believe anyone who is complicit in the ‘murder’ of another human being should be held accountable.
Not just the mother of the dead baby, but the doctor and staff she colluded with to murder her child.
So Lana when your mom was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus?
How do human beings acquire ‘bodily autonomy’?
Is is it something the ‘state’ bequeathes on them or is an inherent part of being human?
Need a picture of woman shrouded from head to toe in one of those robins egg blue burqua’s holding a sign saying,
Stop the war on women!
Invade Iran. Invade China.
or just for fun:
Stop the warts on women.
Callous? Toward the “unborn,” sure, I suppose you could say that. It’s NOT my business what happens (or doesn’t happen) within the confines of someone else’s body. But since you’ve tried to make it your business: to respond to SM: No, I haven’t given birth, but I had a miscarriage several years ago, and I certainly grieved. Not for the life lost, as it was–barely a few weeks old, a nascent human being, cells rapidly dividing and diversifying. No, I grieved for lost potential. For all the hopes I had pinned to this developing life, for what I hoped this child would grow up to do. You can shut right up. I do know what it’s like to carry a life inside of me. It was MY unique experience, not yours, not anybody else’s. I was not a mere conduit for developing life, as you prolifers wish that any woman who gets pregnant would be. Just have the baby, regardless of anything. What a stupid cause. Find something more worthwhile. Let’s cure AIDS, let’s end global poverty, let’s save fetuses from their evil moms???? Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Human beings acquire bodily autonomy when they are expelled from their mother’s uterus, though that may not apply to your children. Since you’re such “selfless” paragons of motherhood I’m sure your kids’ll be tethered to you until puberty. And then it’ll be off to Bob Jones or Oral Roberts Uni to get indoctrinated a lil more.
Good luck raising up the next generation of prolife drones. My teenage stepdaughter has more deductive reasoning skills than than the lot of you.
Oh, this is interesting. Krys – you wouldn’t happen to know our old pal Megan, would you?
Like… really, really well?
School out for the summer, Megan?
Sounds like someone’s trying to deceive themselves as a sort of empty comfort over the loss of a child. I’m sorry for you and the loss of your child.
Either that, X, or someone’s making up an entirely different moniker and persona.
Let me restate what I said previously on this thread regarding the loss of a child, comparing early pregnancy to toddlerhood:
“One may be mourned more than the other. We grieve more because we got the time to know and love more. Not because one is worth more intrinsically than the other.” Intrinsic worth has no more to do with how we “feel” about someone than the man in the moon. Human beings are valuable at every stage and every age, regardless of anyone’s personal feelings.
Why do pro-lifers distinguish between “early term” and “late-term” abortions/abortionists?
In my opinion, it’s because late-term abortion, while it takes a human life no differently than an early term abortion, is particularly gruesome. Kind of like the difference between a killer who shoots someone with a rifle as opposed to one who hacks and dismembers a victim with a machete. The victim still ends up dead, but one is far more gruesome and barbaric because the killer with the machete doesn’t just off the person – he feels the life force, feels the bones breaking, sees the blood and the organs… you get the picture.
It takes a special kind of monster to do a late-term abortion.
Hi Krys. Bitter much? I am not going to shut up. I am going to speak up for the defenseless that people like you want to pick on. I am going to speak up and if you don’t like it. Tough.
Why are you grieving silly girl? Its a “life” you say? You say you carried a LIFE? Oh you did, did you? I thought it WASN’T a life? So which is it? Its either a life and thus you have every right to grieve that life but no right to have that life sucked out of your body or it isn’t a life and you have every right to have it killed and sucked from your body but no right to grieve over it. WHICH IS IT? YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
Krys I had my first ultrasound with my son at 5 weeks post-conception (7 LNMP) and my son already had a body, a face complete with dark orbits of the eyes, arms and legs (though no fingers and toes yet) and a beating heart. He looked very human and was very much alive. They are not a dividing ball of cells for long. Not that having arms and legs makes you human. I’m just educating you to the the astounding development children take early in pregnancy since you wish to delude yourself with nonsense. But since humans only reproduce humans (not cats, dogs or alligators) and the unborn are biologically alive then what you have is a living human being in the womb. Thats why you grieved.
Every month I have a period that egg was a potential human being. If my husband’s sperm had met up with it it would have been another one of my children. I don’t grieve every month over the lost egg. Thats POTENTIAL. No Krys, what you lost was an ACTUAL human being. An ACTUAL child. And you know it. Thats why you GRIEVED! Why is it so hard for you to admit it? Because then your whole house of cards that you erected in support of abortion comes tumbling down. And you know it.
Your bitterness is oozing from your soul. Bitterness destroys people. Better do something about that before it affects your health. No joke. Bitterness affects people’s health.
So Lana when your mom was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was present in her uterus?”
I don’t get the question, are you asking if I was human? I guess I was what else would I be. I’m not one of those pro-choicers that quibbles on whether it’s a baby or not, As someone else said earlier it doesn’t matter what ist is. Maybe it’s a 4 year old or an 18 year old or a 65 year old or an entirely different species, doesn’t matter. It’s in my body without my permission, and if I refuse to use my body to sustain it, it needs to get out
How do we get bodily autonomy? we are born with it, just like we are born equal (interesting how the mantra doesn’t go we are conceived equal isn’t it.
Lifer,
You are absolutely correct about a lot of things; women have decided it behooves them to act like men. I think society would be a lot better if men acted more like women, no argument there. More social programs, less war these are good things
but I will not pretend that everything women’s bodies do is desirable. Women menstruate lifer, do you feel that women should stop ‘pretending to be like men’ and stop ‘hiding’ their periods and using pads and tampons to clean things up?
It may seem like I’m being crass here but I’m being serious. As a woman I am not ashamed to have a period but I do find it inconvenient, and I would think its gross to just let it happen naturally. Sometimes our bodies do things we don’t like. I would never argue that pregnancy is universally a good thing, but I imagine neither would you. No one sees a pregnant 8 grader and ohhs and ahhs. No one thinks pregnancy is a disease, but it is a condition that is not desirable for every girl and women. A young woman who uses birth control like a woman who abstains from sex isn’t denying her womanhood, shes making a plan based on her situation and what her life can handle
Replying to Krys at:
May 26, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Well, I agree with you. It is is unreasonable to ask people to wait until they are thirty to have sex, especially considering that most people are biologically sexually ready when they are about 15 or 16. That’s possibly 25 years of sitting around, having your body hold off something it was designed to do.
But the solution shouldn’t necessarily be be promiscuous, but rather maybe we should marry earlier? It is possible, despite what most people say. And I’m not as stringent as most about waiting for marriage. I do believe you should at least wait until you are in a committed relationship, and honestly, sex outside of that can be painful (so my friends tell me) emotionally. That being said, I totally agree with you that waiting till you’re 30 is often too long.
I mean early marriage isn’t that bad. Honestly. I’m getting married in two months – I’m 21, my fiance is almost 20. I know it’s not for everyone, but I’m just saying there is an alternative to either being promiscuous or waiting to have sex until you’re 30.
Lana wrote: “How do we get bodily autonomy? we are born with it, just like we are born equal (interesting how the mantra doesn’t go we are conceived equal isn’t it”
Um, actually, Lana, it’s “created equal” which would mean at conception. And it’s not a “mantra”, it’s from the Declaration of Independence.
DOI: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Lana,
You say “It’s in my body without my permission, and if I refuse to use my body to sustain it, it needs to get out.”
You seem to view bodily autonomy as absolute. Is that correct?
“my parents brainwashed me into being pro-life”
Impossible.
Tell a kids what abortion is and they cry.
They don’t think people have the right to kill babies.
Kids don’t support abortion.
Lauren,
i do not think bodily autonomy is absolute. I think its important but not absolute. No right on earth is absolute because other people have rights too. It is impossible to value everyone’s rights all the time because in doing that other people’s rights would be violated…
the bodily autonomy argument that I use to justify abortion is not, “its my body I can do watever I want with it.” I don’t suppose people doing whatever they want with their bodies, I don’t support people using their bodies to rape people or using their bodies as a suicide bomb.
The argument is that its my body and I shouldnt have to use it to keep another person alive. Its that women do not loose rights to self-determination of their health because they have sex. Its that pregnancy is an enormous sacrifice that takes a heavy physical and emotional toll and it must be done voluntarily and not through guilt or government coercion
The argument is that its my body and I shouldnt have to use it to keep another person alive. Its that women do not loose rights to self-determination of their health because they have sex. Its that pregnancy is an enormous sacrifice that takes a heavy physical and emotional toll and it must be done voluntarily and not through guilt or government coercion
Why should you ever have to sacrifice autonomy to keep another person alive then? Yet, I am sure you agree that a parent has a responsibility to keep his/her child alive post-birth. So. you already agree that autonomy is trumped in the case of parenthood. Why treat it differently for pregnancy?
And if you don’t think parenthood takes a physical and emotional toll on you, then you don’t know what parenthood is.
Oh, and here’s a good question. If a mother gives birth to a child at home during a winter snow in, is that mother obligated to nurse the baby if there is not enough formula, or if the baby rejects the formula? Or is the mother allowed to not nurse the baby to the point of death to maintain the idea that she shouldnt have to use [her body] to keep another person alive?