“I am the 10% of children born with Down Syndrome who survived Roe v. Wade.”
~ Andy Reigstad, creator of the message and father of 6-yr-old Boaz, the child holding the poster, via Life Site News, October 27
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Actually, in this picture, you are a prop…
Cute kid though – and as science is able to identify more pre-birth, the ethical debates are going to get interesting.
He’s glorifying God by saying he’s God’s handiwork and bears His image.
Viewing him as a prop is negative. Rather, he is being mentored by his Dad to be a prolife supporter – and to encourage other families who have a Down Syndrome family member that life can be very good.
LL
He is not a prop.
He is a boy. A boy named Boaz. And a beautiful one at that.
I would sooner have lunch with Boaz than with our Prez.
Ex Gop
The debates may get interesting. Does that really matter?
More children “identified” with DS prebirth=abortion.
90% already are aborted when “identified.”
You going for 100%?
Sorry Laura – I didn’t know that he decided on and wrote the message himself. Smart kid.
Carla – what I mean is, if a gene is found that predisposes somebody to being gay, then there’s a very uneasy alliance out there of conflicting values on the left. Those who support abortion don’t see that conflict with folks with DS as it is seen by a lot as a “flaw”. That’s all I meant on it.
How does killing people with disabilities at an earlier stage in their lives differ from offing the next one you see on the sidewalk? I mean, besides the fact that it’s legal to do so during the first 9 months of life. Take your thought processes to their logical conclusion. Most people would be appalled at the suggestion that having a disability makes one a target, or should make one a target, yet EX here labels the ethics debate of “science” making murdering more of them sooner: “interesting”!
Once again we have the attitudes of other people (EX’s “flaw” remark–I know, I know, you only said most people think it’s a flaw, your linguistic gymnastics to not own it yourself) influencing whether or not a certain group of people live or die. In the case of children with Downs, 9 out of 10 face execution because of that attitude. Now, which is changeable: a genetic anomaly or heartless attitude? We can do better than this, people.
The debates may get interesting. Does that really matter?
More children “identified” with DS prebirth=abortion.
90% already are aborted when “identified.”
You going for 100%?
The 90% is misleading. It is 90% of those identified. Many women who would not choose to abort, also decline testing. So, we would need to add those identified prenatally to those who are born to get a total. Then take the number aborted in comparison to the total to get a % of all affected children who are aborted. Is it 20%, 50%, 80%? Of course I don’t know, and most researchers wouldn’t want the answer. So, I don’t know whether it has been studied, but if it has, it hasn’t got much publicity, again because those who would publicize it don’t want to draw attention to how many Sarah Palin types there actually are.
And how many of those tests are wrong anyway? How many babies who were identified as Downs or anything else actually don’t have what they were diagnosed with?
But I agree – it is a frightening world where people with any type of different genes are considered a “target.”
“Cute kid though – and as science is able to identify more pre-birth, the ethical debates are going to get interesting.”
Ex-GOP, what would be ethical about murdering this child before birth?
Folks, this thread is not about initiative 26. If you want to make comments about that, go to the proper thread or your comments will be removed.
When I was pregnant with our daughter we were told she showed “markers for Down Syndrome”. They sent us to a “genetic counselor”. I (for whatever reason) didn’t just refuse to talk with the GC…I probably should have. But when he brought up the “magic word” -AMNIOCENTESIS I managed to cut him off pretty quickly. I told him “I’m not undergoing any tests that could risk the life of my baby, because the results of tests don’t matter to us. This is our baby.We want her. We love her…no matter what!”
Lo and behold…our daughter is fine. She DOESN’T have DS. Of course it wouldn’t matter if she did…but how often are these tests WRONG..and people abort their babies anyway???
I can tell you that I’ve researched it, and even “the experts” admit that these tests are not “fool-proof”. They are WRONG more than many people know, and they just take it on blind faith that these “experts” (doctors, geneticists, etc.) are always right and, unfortunately, innocent babies pay with their lives for it. :(
An amnio doesn’t have false positives.
Nobody said it did, Nicole. I didn’t have the test done…that was my point. I was referring to the “tests” they do that are misleading. They said my daughter had “markers for Down Syndrome”. They were referring to the fact that on an ULTRASOUND it “looked” to them as if she had an extra skin fold on the back of her neck, which “can be” an indication of DS. And I think they may also have been going by the shape of her eyes as they “appeared”. She has the same eye shape as ME. There are other tests they do besides amniocentesis, Nicole, such as a “serum screening test”.
Women don’t risk the lives of their babies by amnio unless they are willing to kill those babies should the amnio show “defects”.
I also refused amnio and chorionic villi sampling (which can also kill the baby). I don’t know if the baby I’m carrying has Downs or not but I already love this child and my love will not fade no matter what.
@Pamela, those screenings aren’t diagnostic. They can only indicate if further testing would be a good idea for someone who wants to know before birth.
@Sydney, many people get the amnio so they can be prepared. Not every hopsital has a NICU, so such a diagnosis can change the decision on where to deliver. Sarah Palin had an amnio.
Nicole, I agree with wanting to be prepared. If I was to have a child born with DS, I would want to know beforehand so that I could properly research the treatment and therapy necessary for his/her optimum development after birth. I would also want to know so that my doctors could be properly informed of any potential complications that may arise during birth and be ready to treat them.
In fact, personally, if I didn’t have an amnio when suggested and the child was born with some sort of disease, I would worry about having failed the child by not being prepared. I do, however, feel that many doctors push prenatal testing as a type of “search and destroy” practice rather than doing it for the best interest of the child.
Ex, Boaz is a smart child, evidenced by the fact that he claims his right to life and you are willing to only see him as less than perfect.
Boaz is smarter than you.
Also, what a lovely child Boaz is. I have rarely seen such a bright smile. Made my day.
In Germany from 1939 children with Down’s Syndrome could legally be killed with the approval of three doctors. Can you imagine the conversation with the mother? ”Yes, it’s better this way… but it must be distressing for you, because in some ways it looks almost human… of course science is only in its early stages, and in future we will be able to tell when a mother is carrying a Down’s Syndrome foetus in the early stages of pregnancy and deal with it then…”
klynn – you are right – I put others thinking because I don’t want to own the remark – I don’t believe that to be true. Are you saying that a good chunk of society does not see DS as a flaw? If you don’t see that, then look at the stats. If you do see it, then stop trying to pick a fight. :-)
Luana -
If we are being honest with ourselves, we’ll say that right now, most folks have ethically decided that abortion is either right or wrong. Now, I say abortion is wrong, you say abortion is wrong – others say abortion is right and they are comfortable with that.
A lot of people who say abortion is right also say that you shouldn’t discriminate against a person because of their gender or sexual preference.
So, it is one thing to simply say “I’m okay with abortion” – but it would be another to say “I’m okay with people abortion a child because they are predisposed to be gay”. At this point, those folks who have said that they are fine with abortion either put the right to kill a baby above their views on discrimination, or they come to the conclusion that maybe abortion isn’t always ‘good’ in their eyes.
Does that make sense?
Courtnay -
I’m a Christian – I see people as both wholly perfect and less than perfect. I’m not quite sure what the goal of your post really was quite frankly. I have a few strong beliefs on this:
– While I fully support parental rights, I’ve never like seeing kids holding picket signs, going to protests with signs, or otherwise being used as some sort of, again I’ll say it, prop to make the political message of their parent. I don’t care the issue quite frankly.
– A kid with DS is a person just like any other person. I’m just stating, as is the dad (in my opinion) that a lot of people in society see them as ‘flawed’, thus, the high abortion rate. Do you deny that?
– I believe in being adults in debate. I think the board does as well, as evidenced by the board rules. Now, I’m not going to be a cry baby about it, but I do believe that we should treat people as we want to be treated, and I believe we should follow simple and basic rules of good behavior. First, you obviously didn’t read my posts in their entirety, or you didn’t understand them. Second, you didn’t attack any sort of idea, you attacked me. I hope in future interactions that you rise above those sort of things.
Thanks,
Yes, Ex. I stand by what I wrote.
People who are pro-life are smarter than pro-aborts.
Boaz is pro-life. You are not. Therefore…..get it?
IT’S CALLED A SYLLOGISM.
BTW: I guess you didn’t see what I wrote about proabortion “Christians.” Hoo boy. I don’t advocate ever for the lilling of anyone innocent, so I guess it’s you who need to do the “rising above.”
Courtnay -
I’m pro-life. I believe pre-born babies are fully human and deserve legal protection.
If it was on another thread, no, I didn’t see it. There are folks who I skim for their posts because they are usually pretty good (Paladin, Jack, Carla). I’m sorry, but you are not one of those folks. You jump WAY too quickly to conclusions, I don’t feel you completely read posts, and you attack people in a way that I find to be unloving, uncaring, unChristian and simply not a good display of character.
“People who are pro-life are smarter than pro-aborts.” – got some scientific data for that?
OOOOH.
Where’s the tolerance? The inclusion?
Don’t try to intimidate me. I didn’t start off this thread calling a DS child a prop. That post was character-FILLED.
Courtnay – so if you disagree, and believe that people should be able to freely use their children for any sort of political message that they would like – then say it. There is a way to take somebody else’s thoughts and give your own in disagreement.
I think kids are kids – and I wouldn’t go to any sort of rally or political gathering and give my kids signs that made a statement about my kids. I just don’t agree with that.
If you do, then say it. That’s all you have to do.
By the way Courtnay – I’m not looking for tolerance or inclusion – I’m looking for simple respect and human decency.
Nicole, I question why any mom would put her child’s life at risk by submitting to an amnio. “To be prepared” is a lame excuse, imo.
Sarah Palin also debated killing her child afterwards. Amnio and abortion go hand in hand.
It’s not a political argument, Ex. That little boy is deemed by most of this world undesireable, unprotected (in the womb), and unworthy. IT”S THE FIGHT OF HIS LIFE.
But that’s ok, he’s just a “prop.” And you’re lecturing me about “simple respect and human decency”?
I’m pro-life. I believe pre-born babies are fully human and deserve legal protection.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen you actually state that on this site! Nice to agree with you on something. ;)
While working in a NICU I met the Smiths, who told me their story. They had their “diagnostic” amnio and was told their baby boy had Downs.
By the grace of God they chose not to kill their child, and boy, oh boy! Were they ever surprised when their healthy baby GIRL was born!
Tests can be wrong. Doctors can be wrong. Mistakes can be made that end up convincing parents of doom and gloom, and then abortion is recommended as the answer. Killing babies is not the answer to anything, ever.
Jen, I had a CPC client – a really sweet young mom – who had been told the same: “It’s a boy and he has Down syndrome.”. And she gave birth to a baby girl who did not have Ds.
My own OBGYN told me not to have the early tests because they have such a high false positive result.
Courtnay, what I get out of Ex’s posts is that he disagrees with this child being used to make a statement, not that he thinks this child is just a prop and not human, or whatever it is you think he is saying. I don’t completely agree with him. Letting your kid hold a sign and taking a cute picture of him and putting it on Facebook is in a different realm than giving your kids aborted fetus photos and having them protest outside a clinic. Notice how I can state that I think he is going overboard with his views on child exploitation, without accusing him of being pro-abortion and all that?
Fight of his life? Yeah, people with Down’s are not treated with respect and there is a lot of misinformation around about the condition. But come on, this kid can’t be more than five on the outside. My daughter might face sexism later in life, but I am not going to sit her down at age four and talk to her about the glass ceiling. I don’t think Boaz is fighting for anything right now. His dad is, because his dad is old enough to understand the unfairness that his son will face. But it isn’t something Boaz really CAN fight, not at the moment.
I personally love this photo, I shared it on Facebook a couple days ago. I think it has a great message.
And I agree with Kel and all, I really don’t see a point to those genetic tests, that can cause miscarriage, unless you are going to do something about it (abortion). If my wife and I have more kids later in life, I don’t think we would risk it.
“Courtnay – so if you disagree, and believe that people should be able to freely use their children for any sort of political message that they would like – then say it. ”
Kinda silly, dontcha think?? Pro-abort’s children are dead, and they object to their images being used. (Cut to pieces, and all that…) Corpses don’t smile like Ds children who make it out alive.
Good post Jack…I appreciate you being on this board.
Jack, your daughter’s fight would be similar if you lived in China. If Ex is pro-life, then he has a funny way of showing it by calling a DS a prop and making a sarcastic comment on how smart he is.
See how clearly I can say that?
Courtnay -
If Obama brought his daughter to a school rally and had her hold a sign about teacher unions, I would call her a prop as well. Look, I don’t know if you have kids or anything – I have three daughters, and I simply wouldn’t use them to make political statements. If you are fine with that, that’s cool – that is your choice – and I said earlier I believe heavily in parents choices to do that sort of thing. Just not how I treat my kids.
Another poster speculated that Boaz was spreading his pro-life message. So yes, I was a bit sarcastic – I personally don’t believe that the parents have sat down and explained abortion, the rates of abortion for DS children, and the historical political nature of the issue so that Boaz crafted the sign himself. If he did, that negates my entire argument here.
Look, I’ve got nothing against Boaz – I rejoice that he’s alive, he looks like a great kid, God loves him, his family loves him, and I love him.
I’ve explained my position. If you think it is a great thing when people use their kids to make political statements, then just say it, own it, be proud of it, and lets move on.
Courtnay: People who are pro-life are smarter than pro-aborts.
Well, if you compare pro-lifers and pro-choicers, then you’d probably be disappointed in the results. ;)