Abortion documentary offends Anti-Defamation League director
This film is a perverse attempt to make a case against abortion in America through the cynical abuse of the memory of those killed in the Holocaust.
It is, quite frankly, one of the most offensive and outrageous abuses of the memory of the Holocaust we have seen in years.
~ Anti-Defamation League National Director and Holocaust survivor Abraham H. Foxman commenting on the film documentary 180, as quoted by Haaretz, November 11
[HT: moderator Carla]
Nov.14, 2011 6:00 am |
Genocide, Inconsistencies |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“I’m a human being and defining me as valueless was the biggest wrong in human history, but me defining an unborn child as valueless is OK because I’m not one of them and it doesn’t affect me.” What a selfish take on the world.
thats funny because as my jewish husband commented …… how could my sister have abortions after something like the holocaust????
Selfishness and pride have an amazing ability to make people so blind to the truth of horrific things.
i do not understand why some jewish people get so flippen upset about this. its totally fair to argue abortion and the holocaust. the killing of the jews = mass genocide. abortion = mucho mass genicide. we are killing our children. we have got to just put the junk science aside and stop using sematics. fetus embryo blob it makes it easy for you to kill kill kill.
please ignore myb typos. im typing from a tiny phone……you know what i meant semantics
i happen to resent ms. magazines gloria steinem when she commented “a woman has a right to remove a parasite from her body” hitler said “the jews are worthless parasites.”
Heather, my ex-husband is Jewish and he’s prolife, as his my half-Jewish daughter.
@ phylimiss *we rock* i have a half jewish son with him;)
Mr. Foxman is entitled to his views. I wonder if he understands, though, how many of his fellow Jews see a parallel between the two.
The “Holocaust” and “Hitler” terms are thrown around an awful lot these days, often for frivolous crap: “You mean I can’t even smoke in here! Man, this is totally like NAZI GERMANY!” But a mass killing being compared to a mass killing is a bit less of a stretch.
According to my watch, cc will chime in about how liberal Jewish people are all pro-choice in 3-2-1..
Isn’t this the guy who also did not want the Armenian genocide recognized?
I don’t get why Mr. Foxman would be offended that other victims of genocide besides Jews are recognized. How does that diminish the suffering of his people?
There is a strange attitude about the victims of Hitler. It has made into genocide almost solely of Jews. Oh sure, people admit of a few gypsies, and we mustn’t forget the homosexuals, but where is the mention of the 2-3 million Poles, Czechs and other Slavs who were killed for their race? Of course, they were largely Catholic, so I guess they don’t count. I have read that as many of one-third of the Catholic clergy of Poland died in the camps. Hitler actually wanted to kill all non-Aryan peoples. Yes, I do know that the murder of Jews is in a way the most historically significant because of historical anti-Semitism in Europe. By why should all the others largely be ignored? I think there is a kind of politics involved – sympathy in the liberal press for the Jews is definitely far greater than it is for Catholics. But it still doesn’t explain why Mr. Foxman thinks as he does. He wants to cling to his victimization and make it an exclusive thing, rather than let it open him up to the suffering of others.
Oh, and how much do people hear about Hitler’s deliberate killing of the weak, chronically ill and mentally handicapped? Mainstream commentary practically ignores this. And because the powers that be have chosen to ignore this aspect of Hitler’s holocaust for over 60 years, we have learned nothing and have a resurgent movement favoring euthanasia. On top of our insane fixation on murdering babies. Dehumanizing people to murder them. It’s odd how the “Never again” has become useless in all these cases.
My friend’s mother was one of those Poles who were forced to work on farms for the Nazi’s. She lost 5 years of her life, being forced into slave labor. Hardly anyone talks about those also hurt in the Holocaust.
I was fortunate to have traveled to the Holy Land, and went to the remembrance site in the outskirts of Jerusalem. My heart grieves for man’s inhumanity to man. It grieves at the Holocaust, it grieves for the unborn killed in abortion, it grieves for all hurt, abused and killed humans – in all unjust situations.
I’ve seen similarly adverse reactions by some people whenever abortion is compared to slavery.
There is a simple moral principle here, that plays itself out tragically, over and over again in human history:
What happens when a culture decides that a definable subgroup of persons is “less than human”? — grave atrocities and inhuman cruelty on a grand scale.
– The Holocaust
– racial Slavery
– abortion
– genocide
– gendercide
– ethnic cleansing
– religious persecution
It’s all one thing, based on the same moral flaw. No one group has a monopoly on the suffering.
Ray Comfort does a brilliant job of showing that anyone who can see the evil of the Holocaust is fully capable of seeing the evil of abortion.
“According to my watch, cc will chime in about how liberal Jewish people are all pro-choice in 3-2-1..”
I was thinking the same thing. It’s like chum in the water for CC.
I do agree with you, Del. It’s nice to see a level-headed explanation.
The implication being that the rest of the comments AREN’T level-headed, Elizabeth?
It’s unfortunate that Mr. Foxman has taken such an alienating approach on this issue. The same folks that made this film are those who have been horribly offended by the holocaust and America’s abortion on demand policy. My fourteen year-old grandson called me in to watch it on his computer. Since the viewing he has educated himself in depth about the holocaust and it’s horrors. There are real anti-semetic enemies out there for Mr. Foxman to worry about and they don’t make pro-life videos; they make bombs.
I think that groups like to bring attention to themselves by saying their cause is like the holocaust – PETA has done it for years (another similarity between some pro-lifers and PETA…). I must disclaim that I have not watched the documentary, was not involved in the holocaust, and was never aborted as a baby. Those are my full disclaimers.
I was not a part of the holocaust, but I could see anybody involving getting sensitive in regards to other organizations saying that the pain involved in their situation is the same thing. It is a bit like in conversation when you say something that has happened to you, and a friend fires back believing that they’ve gone through the same thing…it isn’t helpful, it isn’t welcome, and it often isn’t true.
Heather, my daughter is half jewish and half black, so not only is she smart, she can also play basketball!
;-0
Apart from the fact that using the banner of the Holocaust in regard to abortion is highly spurious and insulting, I think that if people became aware of who Ray Comfort is and what he represents and espouses, most people would view this film with a mountainous pinch of salt.
Del,
Excellent post!!!
This reminds me a little bit of when The Passion of the Christ came out and there were cries of anti-semitism and how this film was going to incite this or that. Fear mongering. None of it happened.
Abortion is not THE HOLOCAUST but it is A holocaust.
Reality,
You can totally be insulted. It’s a choice.
As we all can Carla, yes we all have choice, thankfully :-)
And I think Ray insults everyones’ intelligence, even his own. He operates about as close to the truth as Eric and Kent ‘jailbird’ Hovind.
I don’t find it insulting in the least. My choice. ha
What intelligence?
He asks COLLEGE STUDENTS in the video who Adolf Hitler was and I don’t think one of them knew!!
Well maybe one.
Maybe you should watch 180 and then we can discuss it?
“He asks COLLEGE STUDENTS in the video who Adolf Hitler was and I don’t think one of them knew!!”
As a current undergrad, this makes me cringe, but doesn’t surprise me in the least.
“I don’t find it insulting in the least. My choice. ha – What intelligence? ” – yes, well.
I have seen it and read many pieces about it from both sides of the debate.
Great, he educates students on who Hitler was, I’m glad, they need to know.
Telling them what happened during the Holocaust and how it took place is also beneficial – until he starts ‘massaging’ aspects to lay the groundwork for….
….a completely superficial and farcical extrapolation of what took place compared to the role of abortion in society.
It contains some factual information but needs to be viewed with a mountainous pinch of salt because of it’s false agenda.
Wait. Who is the movie insulting to?
What is “the role of abortion in society?”
Sweet dreams, Reality.
Sleep well Carla.
His dreams. Our nightmares.
Dead is dead. No matter how many or for what reason. There is no reason for Foxman to think he and his people will be lost in the shuffle. The more murder is pointed out and vilified, the less likely a reoccurence of any holocaust.
Reality: “It contains some factual information but needs to be viewed with a mountainous pinch of salt because of it’s false agenda.”
Right, because we all know that motives influence the legitimacy of an argument. Reality, bringing back the Ad Hominem.
In this particular case Oliver, the facts speak for themselves. No ad hominem required. It’s false agenda dictates the lack of truth it contains.
Ray Comfort, really.
I don’t think you know the definition of an Ad Hominem. Someone’s agenda has nothing to do with the facts. Otherwise, no one could defend himself/herself in court. (Then again, that may be too fancy thinking for you. Do I need to draw a diagram?)
“He wants to cling to his victimization and make it an exclusive thing, rather than let it open him up to the suffering of others.”
Other types of victimization…let’s see, like the war crimes of the Wehrmacht and the notorious camp brothels? The dehumanization of women through sexual violence that took place on a massive scale during the Holocaust (and really, as in most armed conflicts, even today)?
The elephant in the room’s starting to laugh at the black irony here. Female Holocaust victims were totally, entirely stripped of their autonomy. Forget about sexual and reproductive rights. This is what personhood looks like without the right to physical sovereignty. This is life at its most bare, its most bleak.
“Someone’s agenda has nothing to do with the facts” – quite correct. And while you think I attack this film on an ad hominem basis, the reality is that it does severely lack factual content. And the fact that it is a production of Ray Comfort, who is well known for his lack of familiarity with facts, is simply a base from which to launch.
It may indeed simply be ad hominem to attack it because of Ray’s involvement, but he never lets us down.
I don’t know, are you familiar with building flowcharts in Word?
Reality: “And the fact that it is a production of Ray Comfort, who is well known for his lack of familiarity with facts, is simply a base from which to launch.”
No, it is meaningless. Judge the material strictly on the facts. Logic is so simple, why complicate it?
Oh, OK, if you wish.
I find this film to be a pile of fetid garbage. It supplies a modicum of factual material about Hitler and the Holocaust and then distorts and misrepresents the truth and facts about the role and operation of abortion in society so as to deliver an agenda-driven message which it could not otherwise justify.
Pretty much like everything Ray Comfort does.
Happy now?
That’s better, although I am pretty sure you slipped in your own opinion with the whole “distorts” thing. Especially considering that I have never seen you explain how the analogy is a poor one.
It’s more than a ‘poor’ one.
Been there, done that, you must have missed that class.
Given Mr. Comfort’s self-evident propensity for delivering tripe and nonsense, it’s got to the stage where it’s very close to safe to assume that whatever he delivers is going to be tripe and nonsense.
Reality: ” it’s got to the stage where it’s very close to safe to assume that whatever he delivers is going to be tripe and nonsense.”
No, it isn’t. It is impossible to ever reach there.
By the way, the analogy is perfectly sound. The only rebuttal I have ever seen (I think from you) is that the analogy is MORE suited to the oppression of women or something or another. This is a stupid and meaningless argument because it could be analogous to both.
“No, it isn’t. It is impossible to ever reach there.” – now you’re just being unrealistic.
I don’t recall having drawn an analogy between the Holocaust and anything. I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong.
Pfft!
Only in regards to women being at risk of slavery by not being permitted to have control of their own reproductive activities.
Oliver, you’re treating this forum like a virtual playpen. I bet you’re thrilled that here you get to call people names with impunity, blow off some steam (unless you have no qualms about acting like a jerk in real-life).
Also, I never tried to refute the “soundness” of the comparison. Analogies can be massaged from anything, really, as long as the author has a basic command of language. The “validity” of an analogy is subjective. Also, if you’re going to make a comparison, you should be prepared for somebody to question whether other parallels can be drawn between the constituent parts of two things.
The Holocaust/abortion analogy, besides being totally odious, curiously omits women from the equation. There is much talk about the “dehumanization” of the fetus, but born women were also “dehumanized” on a horrific, grand scale during the Holocaust. It seems absurd that any abortion/Holocaust comparison would fail to mention the women, but I guess it’s to be expected since pro-life rhetoric often overlooks the woman in the mother-fetal dyad.
And further still, women–as well as male prisoners, too–were kept alive to work, to serve others. They had “life,” yes, but were completely stripped of autonomy, of dignity. Pro-lifers today like to talk about how the right to life trumps all other rights, but the Holocaust can be seen as an example of what happens when we compromise physical sovereignty, at its extreme.
I fully expect you to tell me that my analogy isn’t sound, so go ahead. I’ll just be here. Drooling on my keyboard like a moron.
Yes, Megan, women suffered a great deal during the holocaust. Thanks for mentioning it. I was aware of it, but didn’t have time to say anything about it.
Yes, women suffered. Not only the rapes and dehumanization, but racial breeding for the state. Many you women were paired with SS officers and others to achieve the most racially-pure children. I believe it was officially voluntary, but you can imagine the pressures involved.
Do not suppose that pro-lifers ignore these things or aren’t concerned about them. I am a feminist, believe it or not.
Of course, babies, born, and unborn, suffered during the Holocaust, including those torn from their mothers at birth to have medical experiments performed on them. Not a word about this from Megan, however. wonder why?
Your comparison between loss of autonomy of concentration camp victims and that of pregnant mothers is insane. Yes, we all know that having to carry a child for nine months is equivalent to being beaten and ravaged in a concentration camp. Give me a break.
That society should expect women to honor their natural duty to protect the child they have engendered is not an assault on their human dignity. It is one of the things that the fostering of this human dignity consists of. We expect women who are carrying young lives in them to act like human beings, human beings who recognize each others’ worth.
You were in that situation, Megan and given a chance to do that. You failed. Your talk here the last few days makes it clear that your abortion was the product of fear rather than feminist liberation. You admitted you essentially wanted to spare your child from having you as a mother. It was an admission of defeat rather than a proving of your “autonomy” or strength. I really wish you could understand that.
Women are not empowered but diminished by abortion.
[Aaaggh! Once again I am not being allowed to save a post more than once. Here’s the edit].
Yes, Megan, women suffered a great deal during the holocaust. Thanks for mentioning it. I was aware of it, but didn’t have time to say anything about it.
Yes, women suffered. Not only the rapes and dehumanization, but racial breeding for the state. Many you women were paired with SS officers and others to achieve the most racially-pure children. I believe it was officially voluntary, but you can imagine the pressures involved.
Do not suppose that pro-lifers ignore these things or aren’t concerned about them. I am a feminist, believe it or not.
Of course, babies, born, and unborn, suffered during the Holocaust, including those torn from their mothers at birth to have medical experiments performed on them. Not a word about this from Megan, however. wonder why?
Your comparison between loss of autonomy of concentration camp victims and that of pregnant mothers is insane. Yes, we all know that having to carry a child for nine months is equivalent to being beaten and ravaged in a concentration camp. Give me a break.
That society should expect women to honor their natural duty to protect the child they have engendered is not an assault on their freedom and human dignity. It is one of the things that the fostering of this human dignity consists of. We expect women who are carrying young lives in them to act like human beings, human beings who recognize each others’ worth.
You were in that situation, Megan and given a chance to do that. You failed. Your talk here the last few days makes it clear that your abortion was the product of fear rather than feminist liberation. You admitted you essentially wanted to spare your child from having you as a mother. It was an admission of defeat rather than a proving of your “autonomy” or strength. I really wish you could understand that. Women do not preserve their autonomy by abortion but diminish it. You are the living proof. I hope you get the help you need.
“Yes, we all know that having to carry a child for nine months is equivalent to being beaten and ravaged in a concentration camp. Give me a break.”
This is an example of the same type of “slippery slope” argument that pro-lifers tend to employ. How many times have I heard here, “Legalized abortion makes murder of born people [somehow] permissible?” I argue that if we suspend the fundamental right to self-determination for a class of people (pregnant women), then there’s nothing stopping society from stripping everybody of this right. I’m merely taking a leaf out of your side’s book.
“That society should expect women to honor their natural duty.”
The problem with the whole “natural duty” thing is that it’s pretty subjective. Anything can be naturalized–or denaturalized–to suit the needs of the beholder. If it’s a woman’s “natural duty” to bear children, then why would you be opposed to forced impregnation?
@ philymiss lol ….given my height and my.husbands.height this one might just play basketball too. i will bet shes the apple of your eye!
and thats correct the holocaust wasnt just the jews as was pointed out above. i feel for each and every life lost in the death camps. i have read several books about it. anyway mr foxman is just being selfish becaus as hans says dead is dead. mr foxman can have his opinion but that doesnt make it correct.
hitler mass murderer…abortionists…mass murderer.
jews were shot in the head if they were too slow or tired to go on. abortionists suck babies out of their mothers wombs they poison them burn them in utero bash the skull in a late term abortion and toss the carnage aside.
mass graves and trenches were dug and the dead bodies were just thrown in or they were burned in the ovens. aborted babies are cremated ( the late george tiller) many end up in landfills dumpsters wherever. someone thought they werent worthy of living. their mothers maybe the father or grandparent……”just have an abortion”
@ philymiss ..my husband is also pro life.
Heather,
Lest we forget….human beings were lined up at the edge of trenches and fired upon. They fell into the trenches. Those that were not killed instantly were buried alive.
Barbaric.
Abortion is just as barbaric.
yes carla…agreed. ive read that the emaciated jews were just tossed into piles with their eyes blinking. too weak to get up. but no matter they werent human to hitler so they were gonna be dead one way or another
yep and how many people in the holocaust? how many people (including mothers) have died in abortion? legal abortion.that is.
@ reality….have you ever had a chance to visit any abortion websites? please do it. im sort of getting annoyed at you talking everyone in a circle with your junk science. ive shown people aborted baby pics and they were so upset many cried many felt sick. some got furious “how.do you do that and think its right. yep did it at work because some were curious. the sad sad piictures on the dead babies in buckets. those are dead human beings.
Megan, you absolutely have physical autonomy when it involves YOUR physical anatomy. Once you bring a unborn child into the mix, then we are no longer talking about just you. I realize you would like it to be just about you. That would make you feel better, because that would make your abortion look like a procedure, instead of what it was, which was a legalized killing.
I’m just wondering: what would it have been like if you had not been so consumed by your fear when you found you were pregnant? What if you believed in your own ability, your own worth, your own possibility?? What if your parents had said, instead of “Whatever,” they had said, “Megan, we will do whatever we can to support you and your child.” What if your boyfriend had said ‘Sweetie, I will help you. You can do this. Let’s not kill our child.” What if you knew what you know now, with all the evidence of sonograms, fetal monitors, advanced understanding of biology? And here’s the clincher: what if you let God love you and your baby into a whole existence, without fear and measured by love, patience and tolerance?
What if. I hurt so much for you.
I argue that if we suspend the fundamental right to self-determination for a class of people (pregnant women), then there’s nothing stopping society from stripping everybody of this right.
Except that women aren’t being deprived of SELF-determination by being prevented from legally killing their children in utero. Pregnant women are not going to be barred from attending schools, voting, getting their driver’s licenses, owning property, or anything else encompassing SELF-determination. Preventing women from determining the fate of their child at the cost of that child’s life doesn’t impede women.
hi xalasie….wishing you much happiness with your new.soon to be hubby. sounds like a great catch. btw have you been able to go to the abortion clinic yet to “harass” the women?
Although I think Ray has done a great job of showing the correlation between the Jewish genocide, attitudes of the Germans and current attitudes of abortion, then bringing it home with our own moral imperfections – I think the real power of what he did is not in the movie – it’s in the actual filming – asking the questions face to face.
People hide behind things (hence the proverbial fig leaves and hiding from God in the Garden) when they know they are guilty. Confronting them face to face puts them on the spot, where it’s not so easy to go back on their words. Observing Reality’s reactions here shows absolutely no serious depth of self-reflection and an almost knee-jerk response to protect and cover-up for self-preservation. I don’t even think she’s aware of how strongly that comes across.
Watching the film is passive, compared to face to face engagement. So avoidance and mudslinging is completely impersonal. In other words – the mudslinger makes themselves less than human by avoiding empathy – the very charge within the film.
Recently at the University of Rhode Island, Center for Bioethical Reform put up a GAP display hosted by the Republicans on campus (good for them.) The major issue that came out of that was the direct correlation between the comparative depiction of the Holocaust and our treatment of the unborn. The pro-choice crowd hated that – took great offense. In reality, the displays are a mirror which says to them – “your attitude is the same as the Nazis’ who ignored or even supported the Holocaust.” Avoidance, ignorance and violence follow because it’s so true.
Ray makes a very astute observation at the end of the film – the German people who lived near the camps were invited in to see what was there – and they went in smiling. Coming out, they were emotionally exhausted – I would imagine the corners or areas near the doorways were splashed with vomit. Reality – clear and undeniable truth, has a way of shaking you to your core.
I think I’m beginning to understand why the punishment for sin was death – it’s a reality that for everyone is completely unavoidable. There’s no escaping or denying it no matter how hard you try.
So that unavoidable reality is coming – we don’t know when. Then we’ll discover the immense nightmarish horror of our own imperfections.
Failing to acknowledge that has nothing to do with refuting an agenda – it’s merely a sign of insanity.
Well first, I’d say that losing basic control of your body for nine months is a pretty big breach of the self-determination principle, but whatever. Suspending pregnant women’s ability to decide what’s happening inside their bodies paves the way for other breaches of physical self-determination. At one point in the US it was socially unacceptable for women to participate in strenuous activity because doing so would have harmed their reproductive capabilities (supposedly). I don’t see what’s stopping this regressive ideology from making a comeback, besides the faulty science behind this one case. If an unborn child’s right to life is all-important, then it follows that society has a moral obligation to police women’s bodies to make sure they’re not compromising an unborn human’s inherent “right to be born.”
Is that what you think pregnancy is? Losing basic control of your body? It might’ve been the most amazing 9 months of your life! It’s not a disease, Megan. Not an alien. You are absolutely in control: you are creating a life! And you WILL NOT DIE from it. YOU CAN SURVIVE IT. It won’t be the worst thing to happen to you.
We prolifers have never claimed the the unborn’s right to life is “all-encompassing.” All we have said is that it’s equal to yours. Just equal. Do you hear me, you peace and social justic types???? This is where it begins: at the beginning.
you dont lose control of your body. that happens in the unprotected sex act. many pregnant women work right up until their due dates. i did. pregnant women still drive cook sleep well watch tv finish school.
I’m currently 35 weeks pregnant and I haven’t lost basic control of my body at any point during my pregnancy. What on earth are you talking about, Megan?
Suspending pregnant women’s ability to decide what’s happening inside their bodies paves the way for other breaches of physical self-determination
Wait a sec, we have the ability to decide what’s happening in our bodies?! If that’s the case, how come I gain weight when I eat a package of Oreos? I should be able to decide that those cookies will NOT go straight to my thighs!
In all seriousness, women have every right to decide what’s happening or what will happen inside their bodies – including who is allowed to put a penis inside of them. Once a baby is conceived, it’s no longer just HER body, because she’s carrying another separate, distinct, unique body inside of her due to her own free choice (in 99% of cases).
If an unborn child’s right to life is all-important, then it follows that society has a moral obligation to police women’s bodies to make sure they’re not compromising an unborn human’s inherent “right to be born.”
In other words, society has an obligation to make sure that innocent unborn children aren’t directly killed? Then we agree.
Abe Foxman is a well known anti-Catholic pro-abortion mouthpiece. His reaction should be no surprise to those who are familiar with his nonsense.
“What on earth are you talking about, Megan?”
I’d say that a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant but can’t legally end that pregnancy is losing basic control of her body. The clear difference is that you’ve happily submitted to the whole process.
“Because she’s carrying another separate, distinct, unique body inside of her due to her own free choice (in 99% of cases).”
1) Sex isn’t a “natural” pregnancy contract; otherwise, all unprotected penile-vaginal intercourse would result in a pregnancy 2) At least you admit that some women don’t have free choice in reproduction. As underreported as rape is in the US, it’s much, much higher in other parts of the world. What about instances where women are raped on a widescale, Joanna–women who have absolutely no choice?
“I should be able to decide that those cookies will NOT go straight to my thighs!”
You do have the option of remedying that situation. It’s called dieting. Or working out. Secondary prevention.
gee megan i have 4 kids and got my shape right back. it took a little work with the last one cuz id hit 210 pounds. pregnancy is the one time you can just pig out and people will tell you how radient you look. look at all the hollywood moms. is cher fat? madonna? naw. @ at joAnna congrats!!!!!!!
I’d say that a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant but can’t legally end that pregnancy is losing basic control of her body. The clear difference is that you’ve happily submitted to the whole process.
Re: the former – you’re avoiding the question. I would like you to explain how I have lost basic control of my body. I can still walk, talk, eat, sleep, defecate, etc. So how have I lost basic control?
Re: the latter – why do you make that assumption?
Sex isn’t a “natural” pregnancy contract; otherwise, all unprotected penile-vaginal intercourse would result in a pregnancy
This is a fallacy, as it ignores the basic biological truths of human reproduction and fertility (i.e., women have naturally infertile periods in their cycles).
At least you admit that some women don’t have free choice in reproduction. As underreported as rape is in the US, it’s much, much higher in other parts of the world. What about instances where women are raped on a widescale, Joanna–women who have absolutely no choice?
In the United States, Megan, abortions due to rape account for less than 1% of total abortions. I’m discussing the other 99% as that’s what’s germane to the current discussion. As for other parts of the world, the solution to a crisis pregnancy is to end the crisis (rape epidemics), not kill children who result. You seem to be more than happy to keep women in situations where they are continually raped as long as they can kill their babies afterward, and I find that sad and disturbing.
You do have the option of remedying that situation. It’s called dieting. Or working out. Secondary prevention.
Thank you for affirming my analogy!
Dieting: abstaining from food = Abstinence: abstaining from sex (i.e., the act that causes conception)
Working out: making a regular commitment for a fixed amount of time to engage in strenuous, often painful and inconvenient, bodily exercise = Pregnancy: making a commitment for a temporary amount of time to undergo a sometimes strenuous, inconvenient bodily function so as to preserve the life of the child you implicitly consented to create.
Bulimia, then, would be the equivalent to abortion – avoiding the natural consequences of one’s overeating by forcibly vomiting the food (or avoiding the natural consequence of sexual intercourse by forcibly removing the baby).
I’m so glad we agree.
JoAnna, I have that same Oreo issue. Where is my control over my body!!!!??? I mean, I put the Oreos in my body and I don’t intend to get fat, man, that is so unfair. so UNJUST.
Sex IS a natural pregnancy contract. Are you kidding me. That’s what sex is there for in the first place. If you don’t want a baby, then don’t have the sex. Didn’t you say you were an educator, Megan?? That’s the risk you took. But then you looked at that pregnancy test like I look at my thighs, and we both thought: BUT THAT WAS NOT MY INTENTION.
The comparison stops there of course, because my thighs are part of MY body and the baby that you aborted had his or her own. That’s why you had the abortion.
P.S. Babies conceived in rape want to live as much as those conceived in love.
“That societIy should expect women to honor their natural duty.”
The problem with the whole “natural duty” thing is that it’s pretty subjective. Anything can be naturalized–or denaturalized–to suit the needs of the beholder. If it’s a woman’s “natural duty” to bear children, then why would you be opposed to forced impregnation?
Megan, this “natural duty” is not the creation of whim. Anyone who believes in natural law at all realizes that it is immutable, objective and unchangeable. None of these people are going to go around changing what they think natural law to be at whim, especially there has been a pretty solid agreement since the beginning of humanity that parents have duties to their children. Science shows that women have a protective instinct toward their children that is present before birth, one that is beneficial to the mother, child and society. Why would we not expect this to be affirmed in law and custom?
It is only you and you fellow relativists who have trouble with this. You are projecting onto us you own belief that reality is dependent on the whim of the individual.
I have no idea what you hysterical words about “forced impregnation” are about. Do you mean women impregnated by rape?” Or are you thinking that it’s a pro-life belief that all women’s natural duty is to have children and that we therefore want to have all women impregnated by law?
Megan is so sad. Over time, we’ve all tried logical arguments, emotional arguments, even spiritual ones. As long as Megan repeats to herself that her child was not human, not deserving of it’s own life, then she can live with her insistence that abortion was alright. But, the lady doth protest too much. Megan didn’t get on with her life, like the abortionists promise. She is stuck here like a broken record. Megan is unable to move on. If her baby’s abortion really had liberated her from ‘maternal slavery’ she’d be in a better frame of mind. Instead, she comes to pro-life sites constantly and unrelentingly harping over and over.
Megan’s a lot like an alcoholic. She won’t be able to stop drinking the abortion kool-aid until she admits she has a problem. Yep. The lady doth protest too much.
Nah, Megan is more like someone who enjoys a glass or two of wine once or twice a week yet finds herself surrounded by screaming harpies who claim that she’s an alcoholic, that alcohol is the devil’s work and that they are doing everything they can to ban it.
So she protests. She doesn’t want to drink your kool-aid, nor see others forced to drink it.
Megan “finds herself surrounded” huh, Reality? We don’t go to her site/blog — I don’t know if she’s even got one — she comes to ours and throws herself into our conversation completely on her own.
Once again, anything to deny reality.
Fair point Lori, still doesn’t make ninek’s alcohol analogy correct though.
Aw, is that your aim, to deny me?
No, Reality, I meant that was your aim. Rather ironic, as I was tying to say.
reality just spews incorrect opinions. he refuses to look at facts…….im guessing hes getting close to troll status?
Jill,
…just took a look at “180”. Ray Comfort is doing what he is supposed to do. It is too bad that anyone takes offense.
JoAnna: I’m currently 35 weeks pregnant and I haven’t lost basic control of my body at any point during my pregnancy.
Indeed, but had you been forced to end the pregnancy against your will, you would have lost that control, the same as for women who would be forced to continue pregnancies.
Indeed, but had you been forced to end the pregnancy against your will, you would have lost that control, the same as for women who would be forced to continue pregnancies.
By this logic, I “lost control” of my body when I miscarried, because the baby was expelled from my body against my will and against my control. Who can I sue, the laws of nature?
Regardless of how a pregnancy comes about, women who are pregnant are still “in control” of their bodies. No one forces a woman to walk, talk, sleep, eat, and defecate, or prevents her from doing same, while pregnant.
What pro-life laws ensure is that a woman is not “in control” of her BABY’S body; i.e., that a woman can’t kill an innocent human being who is only temporarily in her womb, and thus violate his/her right to life.
JoAnna: By this logic, I “lost control” of my body when I miscarried, because the baby was expelled from my body against my will and against my control. Who can I sue, the laws of nature?
Nope – that was never under your conscious control anyway.
____
Regardless of how a pregnancy comes about, women who are pregnant are still “in control” of their bodies. No one forces a woman to walk, talk, sleep, eat, and defecate, or prevents her from doing same, while pregnant.
Well yeah, but if you had been forced to end the pregnancy against your will, that would indeed have been a loss of control, the same as for women with unwanted pregnancies being forced to continue them.
____
What pro-life laws ensure is that a woman is not “in control” of her BABY’S body; i.e., that a woman can’t kill an innocent human being who is only temporarily in her womb, and thus violate his/her right to life.
It’s the fact that the right to life is not attributed that has you dissatisfied with the situation.
Nope – that was never under your conscious control anyway.
But it was under my unconscious control? What, I didn’t have enough positive thoughts while I was pregnant and caused my miscarriages?
Well yeah, but if you had been forced to end the pregnancy against your will, that would indeed have been a loss of control, the same as for women with unwanted pregnancies being forced to continue them.
You are claiming that women are losing something that they never had in the first place. We all (medical conditions aside) have bodily control when we’re pregnant, regardless of how the pregnancy came about. What we can’t control is whether or not conception occurs in the first place. This is NOT the same as losing control of bodily functions during pregnancy.
Given this fact, women (and men) should not engage in the act that CAUSES conception if they don’t want conception to occur. Rape/incest situations are tragic, but the solution to a crisis pregnancy is to end the crisis, not the baby. In those (extremely rare) cases, there is another living, developing human being to consider who did not do anything to merit execution for the crimes of its biological parent.
It’s the fact that the right to life is not attributed that has you dissatisfied with the situation.
You’re right; it’s an enormous injustice and one that I hope is remedied in my lifetime. But I’m glad you now recognize that conception and pregnancy do not cause a woman to lose control of her bodily functions.