Abortion doula: “Those pictures are real.”
Those abortion pictures pro-life activists flash are real. That is what a fetus looks like when its head is crushed.
When you see the procedure, you must decide, as a pro-choice person, whether you are in or out. … I have never been more in….
Doing them underground is a major last resort. I would be willing to, if things came to that.
~ Abortion doula Mary Mahoney (pictured), as quoted by Observer.com, November 14
[HT: moderator Carla; photo by Jackie Snow via Observer.com]
Nov.18, 2011 6:00 am |
Apologetics, Industry watch |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
is this a picture of the doula? and is she telling her patients that our pics are real? well i guess she gets some points for that. but if she herself knows this then why is she working for satan?
Wow, such a sweet looking girl. I cannot imagine her saying I was never more in after viewing it. It is beyond comprehension.
God have mercy on this woman. Surely she knows not what she does. What a tragic and horrifying waste of her life.
The selling of her soul.
I know that he/she is a baby. I know that the baby is killed by abortion. I know that the photos of a dead baby with a skull crushed in an abortion are real.
I’m in.
Chilling. Evil. Tragic.
Although I SO appreciate her brutal honesty. She at the very least embraces the killing. She KNOWS the TRUTH and OWNS IT!! Unlike some folks I know. (lalala…it’s not a baby…lalala)
“When a patient is nervous or anxious, telling them a little about their sign can take their mind off the abortion—everyone loves to hear about themselves.”
Especially if they’re there for an abortion. I mean, they think their mere comfort is important enough to kill their own child over, so they must be pretty self-centered. It only makes sense that their favorite topic of discussion would be themselves.
agreeing here with you xalisae…..my girlfriend was a nursing student 14 years ago and she went for an abortion. here is what i call a non victim because she knew what she was doing. she sat across from a girl as they filled out their blood soaked paper work. she and the girl made some small talk and the girl said “i dont want to lose my figure.” are you friggin kidding me????? does that fit under health of the mother????? megan pretty much admitted she didnt want the cookies on her thighs. ~ nuff said.
Chilling. She does have the heart and soul of an abortionist. They too know what they are doing and they are “in”. Is she willing to be a doula for the woman doubled over crying and screaming for her dead baby years after the abortion? I have seen my friends do that. Crying so hard they can’t breathe and the snot is dripping out of their noses and their faces are red and sweaty. Where are the abortion doulas then?
So……….what are your thoughts about these women that KNOW what they are doing?
They know it is a baby. They pay someone to kill their child.
Be honest.
Just a quick note to proaborts.
What is to be done with this young lady? I mean she is one of YOURS who knows the truth.
Do you lump her in with the rest of us crazies that believe life begins at conception?
Do you ignore her?
Do you chastise her?
Should she just shut her mouth?
Must you distance yourself from one of your own?
I mean she is there in the gore of abortion. Right there. Seeing with her own eyes the killing of a child. She sees it, she knows it, she supports and promotes it. She is all in.
What say ye??
the women who know what they are doing need to be held accountable for their actions. my moms friend lives in florida and sees a doctor who aborted. the doctor chooses to talk to my moms friend about it a lot. so a doctor knows about fetal development. i cannot call her a victim. a woman who thinks pregnancy will make her fat? not a victim. but dont get me wrong…..there are indeed victims of the abortion industry.
What do you think? What do you feel about them?
How do you do that? How do you, Heather hold them accountable?
How are some of us victims and some of us not victims? Even though we are all paid for the death of our babies. Even though we are all mothers of dead babies.
im down the middle with victims……..look at gloria steinem…..she does not strike me as a victim. she has an odd love affair with abortion and planned parenthood and shes almost 70 or maybe older. she sure seems pretty happy about her abortion. she also pimps abortion for other women. thats whats so sick about these abortion pimps. ha and we thought only men could be pimps.
What does “down the middle” mean?
Please don’t give me tons of examples of post abortive women who may or may not regret them.
I just really want the truth. If you think they are whores……fine. If you hate them…ok. If you are sickened by the sight of them….got it.
Do you lump her in with the rest of us crazies that believe life begins at conception?
Carla, if the argument is really whether “the unborn are alive or not,” then that’s a much different thing.
____
Do you ignore her? Do you chastise her? Should she just shut her mouth? Must you distance yourself from one of your own?
No. Why would there be any need for it? She’s being honest, from what I can see, telling how she feels. I don’t think she feels the unborn are really “children,” but that might or might not matter to her.
I don’t hate women who abort Carla. I don’t get sick at the sight of them. But how are women who abort victims and every other sinner is not?
Someone who robs a store to support his drug habit… he is a victim of drugs, no? Even though he chose to ingest it. But he bought the lie that drugs would make his life happier. So he is a victim right? Even though the people terrorized at the store he robbed are victims… I don’t get it.
I have a close family member in jail for rape. He got into porn as a teenager and fed his habit. Soon “regular” porn didn’t do it for him anymore. It had to be more and more violent. He raped a woman to satisfy his fantasy created by porn. Is he a victim? I don’t consider him so even though he bought the lie that porn satisfies. He is my family. I LOVE him. But I don’t see him as a victim at all.
I view women who abort the same way. I can feel love for them and sympathy for what drove them to abort. But victims? Sorry. Don’t see it that way.
I see ALL sinners (which we ALL are) as SLAVES. We are enslaved to sin. But we are not victims of sin, yes, even when our sin hurts us. Which is ALWAYS does. Someone who is bitter can have health problems and live a miserable life. Their holding on to anger is a sin according to the Bible and it is physically and emotionally hurting them! But they are not victims. They are slaves. Slaves to sin.
Christ came to forgive our sins and to set us free from our old master.
I don’t know if this is the same old semantics we’ve gone round and round before. This is how I see it and explain it.
well carla what do you say about the women who lack remorse? thats all im asking. no they dont make me sick but it does bother me when they say things like “for the best” “didnt bother me” tell me what do you think about gloria steinem?
i actually agree with what sydney m. just said.
I don’t think about Gloria Steinem.
I lacked remorse! I sat quiet. I tried to convince others to abort! I denied the killing.
I have been there too.
And I KNOW women that deny it. To my face. They tell me their abortions never bothered them. They ask, “WHY do you keep talking about your abortion? Why can’t you just get over it? Stop posting on facebook!!”
I get it. I understand it. And I pray desperately for them. They know I am here. They know what I do. They know how my heart aches for their deception and how I long to see them free from the bondage of abortion. How God longs to see His daughters free.
I guess to me it doesn’t really matter. Whatever stage they are in. Denial, anger, relief, remorse, defending. I meet them wherever they are. If they knew or didn’t know whether I think them a victim or not…..it doesn’t really matter.
Thanks for the thoughts. Honestly. I need to hear what others think or believe. Sometimes I feel as though nobody wants to “hurt me.” But honest discussion it good. It keeps me doing what I’m doing.
PS
Sorry. I need a Doug free day today. :)
my husbands former brother in law is almost finished serving a 17 year sentence for driving drunk and slamming into 2 cars killing the mothers and mangled up their kids. is mike a victim because he has the disease of alcoholism or were the victims the women and the children?
Love you Carla. I won’t tell you to “hang in there” ;-) but you will be on my mind and in my prayers today.
:)
I love you, Sydney.
I am lamenting today. Lamenting it all and crying out to God.
Sometimes I just don’t want abortion to be part of my story. It is so hard to carry and today I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to bear the burden. But I must. I wish I had never done it. That I had NEVER, EVER, EVER had walked through those doors. But I did.
That probably didn’t make any sense but my heart is so heavy for those so horribly blinded to LIFE.
Crying too hard to see………
So……….what are your thoughts about these women that KNOW what they are doing?They know it is a baby. They pay someone to kill their child.
I think they are wrong, and I think it is understandable how they can feel that they are right. I do not in any way want to see them punished but I do want to see them helped, if they ever want help in any way, though I do not want to insist that they need or secretly want help. I would much rather see them helped before the abortion than after, but either way I hope someone understands what they need and is willing and able to give it to them.
I think it is sad that we have come to consider “relief and perhaps a bit of regret” to be a happy ending. I think they deserve happiness, not just “relief;” and I wish they felt that they had a way to attain it.
I think of listening to someone say, “It’s a life and I’m going to kill it,” and I think that that person’s words are symptoms – symptoms of a culture that has accepted that it is better to be “in” on this issue than out, whatever the cost; of a society that assumes the default position that whatever the price of being in, the price of being out is greater.
I have always had greater sympathy for the scared woman than for the unborn child. That’s not a popular thing to say ’round these parts, but there it is. I don’t think that my own feelings are indicative of who “deserves” more sympathy, or of how things should be, though for most of my life I based my views on abortion on this feeling – that in the end, if forced to care for one over the other, I cared for the woman, and so I was pro-choice. Even now, I don’t believe that all women are traumatized or scarred by abortion, and I don’t believe that just because some women are ok with abortion has any bearing on whether or not it is objectively ok. I think abortion is wrong, and yet whether a woman is okay with her abortion or not, I think no differently of her than of anyone else. I think that whether she aborted or not, whether she regrets her abortion or not, I have felt enough and done enough in this life that we have more in common than not, so she’s welcome to come sit right next to me.
As a doula, in new york no less, this horrifies me. I’ve known about the “doula project” for some time now and have NEVER supported it. There was a local midwifery group here who was offering abortion doula training. Us Christian doulas took it to prayer and it was cancelled without explanation, thank God!
I’m also a “loss doula” where I work with families who are miscarrying, having a stillborn, or a poor prenatal diagnosis where the baby is not expected to live long after birth. I’m required to (and happy to) refer them to life affirming centers if they receive a poor prenatal diagnosis.
I lost a baby at 17 weeks…my Ob insisted I go to an abortionist to have my dead baby removed. I refused and birthed him peacefully and whole into my hands. I cant imagine, as a doula, attending an abortion where the baby gets ripped to shreds before my eyes.
please carla……the point of my post was not to hurt you in any way. im sure you were lied to but no im not sick to be around my post abortive friends. not at all! but i dob pray that one day they will regret and repent. thats all i was saying. until they admit they were wrong how can they heal?
NYDoula, I am so sorry for your loss. I am 21 weeks pregnant with a little boy and when I was 21 weeks pregnant with my first boy friends of my family lost their 3rd child (also a little boy) at 21 weeks. She also birthed him and held him and they had a funeral. I cannot imagine losing a child. It is a horror I never want to face.
I can’t imagine your grief Carla.I know that could just as easily be part of my story if circumstances were different or if I didn’t have the support I had with my unplanned pregnancy. God is using your story for good though. God is using your story to save lives and soften hearts. You are under attack today. And so I will be praying.
OK, this conversation moved a lot since I began writing that comment.
I am not going to touch the “victim” issue but I do have to say that I disagree with equivocations of abortion to drunk driving or rape. Not based on severity of the action but based on context. Perhaps if we lived in a culture where rape was legal for forty years, with generations growing up in a society that was pro-choice-on-rape; and arguments in favor of making rape safe, legal, and rare; and men openly speaking out and saying, “Back in college, I raped a woman. Not many people will admit that but I am going to stand up and say that I did, and I would have done it anyway if these laws were different, but I would be in jail now instead of supporting my wife and raising my children and contributing to the economy.” Decades of normalization of the idea of rape, AND absolute utter silence from women – because, of course, we hear nothing from the unborn. Even those who know and admit that they are there, that they are real, hear and see nothing, unlike the crying, screaming women who would be unignorable in a rape-allowance culture. MAYBE then, after decades and decades of being told that rape is okay, that rape doesn’t hurt anyone, that making rape legal is better than having all the men end up in prison – maybe then I would understand a metaphor between rape and abortion.
But we have a culture that explicitly acknowledges the wrongness of rape. We have laws to protect and punish. We have public-awareness campaigns and vocal survivors of rape to remind us of just how awful rape really is.
Women who abort do not decide to go against the law and against socialization. They behave in accordance with the society they have been raised in, with the law, with everything they have been told is ‘normal.’ People are a complex blend of nature and nurture. A broken society produces people who think that broken is normal, acceptable. Who feel, in their very core, that it is normal and acceptable. A broken machine, allowed to continue undisturbed, will break its parts and pieces.
i have stood on the sidewalk of abortion clinics and i actually SAW a man drag his girlfriend into that clinic repeating “you are going to have an abortion today” despite her crying and protesting. i have also had women trot past me and yell “blank off and get the blank outta my way.” i guess thats why i see it both ways. i cant take every case apart to tell you what drives them to abort.
Oh. My. God. I feel sick after reading that article. How, HOW could a woman trained to assist in the most difficult and beautiful miracle of someone’s life turn around and begin to assist in violently ending that miracle?
I’m 22 weeks pregnant with my first child, my figure is shot, my financial future is uncertain, but there is no way I could EVER consider “terminating” my precious baby! In preparation for birth, I’ve spoken with several doulas, in fact I wish I could afford to hire one myself, but now I realize I’ll have to screen them more carefully–I WILL NOT condone or support someone who subsidizes their income by helping to kill babies!
@ Susie Allen regarding “such a sweet looking girl….”
Satan can take on many such a “sweet looking ” face. Hers is but one of them.
Heather–yes, there are women who are the victims of forced abortion; a horrifying but true scenario even in the U.S. Whatever happened to “her body, her choice?” (although that girl you saw could have tried harder if she truly wanted her baby–why did she even get in the car with him that day?) I understand your confusion over the other sort of women, the ones who declare hatred for their bodies and their babies, who publicly celebrate having killed one or more of their own children. The problem is, we only see their public facade; we’ll never know the private anguish of their souls–and it’s likely they will do everything possible to avoid it themselves. So in a way they are victims, as Alexandra said, victims of our broken culture that has taught entire generations that killing an unplanned child is the way out of a scary situation. I feel intensely sorry for all post-abortive women, and I pray for them as a whole (individually if I know names/faces)
Alexandra, your point is understood, but then I would ask, were the women who aborted when it was illegal and an unthinkable crime (20’s, 30’s 40’s etc..) victims or akin to rapists and drug users? If the fact that it was legal is the defense for women aborting today then what about when it wasn’t legal?
Please don’t think you hurt me, heather. You haven’t. It is well with my soul.
I was wrong. I was so very wrong in getting an abortion. So wrong. I take 100% responsibility in all of the behaviors(drinking, partying, promiscuity)that led up to me paying someone to kill my first child. 100% responsibility for it all. 21 years since then and it will never go away until I am reunited with my girl.
I love them. I love every single post abortive woman. I do. The ones that look into my eyes and flat out tell me they are GLAD, to the ones who fall into my arms sobbing to the ones that have never told another soul. I love them all. I pray for them all. The Gloria Steinems, Stevie Nicks, Megan included.
They are never far from my thoughts. Ever. I have a LONG list of post abortive moms that I know and love and interact with in various stages. I pray over them. That they someday turn to me. And I will be there. I will point them to The Healer of their souls.
Have a great weekend everyone!!
dont forget often many fathers beg an4 plead for the mothers of their children not to abort. i have met many men who were elated and the woman crushed them by saying “sorry im not having this baby.” its all her choice. abortion is between a woman and her doctor. isnt that how it goes? yeah whatever. but also agree with a fractured culture and with abortion on the table it will only get worse. trust me on this…..we are going to have 4 more years of obama so get ready.
JVR, how do you know she “could have tried harder”? Maybe she lived with him and was afraid of what he would do if she wouldn’t get in the car? Maybe she felt threatened or unsafe? Certainly she was in a very vulnerable condition and it is NEVER your place to victim blame or judge what she could have done. Forced abortions should never happen and it is such a sad scenario despite what you think the woman could have done to prevent it.
yes elizabeth….this poor african american girl had no chance. her hulking boyfriend stood about 6 foot 4 and im sure they lived together. we told him we would call the cops but the abortionist saw what was going on and escorted them through the back door. the girl finally just gave up and walked to the back door. im sure she feared abuse at home had she not aborted. it was a sad sad day that day.
Steve Nicks wrote the song “Sara” to lament the child she lost to abortion. Don Henley was the father. When Stevie got pregnant she told Don and immediately said she was aborting. And Don was happy. Stevie later said that though she was glad she had the abortion she was mad that Don Henley didn’t try to talk her out of it (if she is so glad why would she have wanted him to talk her out of it? Even when they deny it, the hurt shows).
A couple years later Stevie penned the words to “Sara”. She said she always felt the aborted baby was a girl and hoped her spirit was at peace. Don Henley has backed up this story.
I was not familiar with the song and looked it up and knowing what the song was about made me cry as I read the words.
I think we can all agree… abortion hurts women. Please God, make it end.
yep sydney m. i knew about stevie nicks abortion. i never knew don was the dad. i never knew that sara was written for the baby. my friends brother taught joe walsh to play guitar. he used to be in the james gang and pacific gas and electric. its a small worlld isnt it? i have 2 pics of joe walsh in my bedroom when he came to town. he also dated stevie.
i always thought lindsey buckingham was the dad.
So……….what are your thoughts about these women that KNOW what they are doing?They know it is a baby. They pay someone to kill their child.
I find this attitude very frightening. I almost prefer people that say it’s not a baby, etc., because at least it could be said they are in denial. But to know you’re taking human life and still think its okay . . . I try to keep religion out of my arguments against abortion, but this kind of attitude is satanic.*
NYDOULA, thank you for your work and stay strong in the hellhole known as New York.
*More “religion” — NYC is one of the places where Satan has his seat, he just has a condo here in Philly :-0
Sydney M,
I couldn’t agree with you more about becoming a “slave to sin”. But some individuals are victims of another’s sin. What about the child abused by his/her father or mother? What about the spouse who gets cheated on? What about the store clerk that gets robbed and blown away by the criminal? And since we’re discussing this doula being proud of her aborting fetuses/pre-born children, aren’t the victims of sin the aborted pre-born human beings?
Praying for you, Carla and all who suffer from abortion. You are not alone in your suffering. I know the pain (from a different circumstance), but just unite that suffering to Christ and He will heal you and show you His Mercy. Even in the midst of days where you feel like you’re never going to get better, the pain is too unbearable, your faith will carry you through. Proverbs 3:5-6 is one I constantly recite and the Psalms, of course. God is using you as an instrument of His healing and mercy.
Carla,
You are SO STRONG! You have done SO MUCH good in this world and helped SO MANY people. WE LOVE YOU. :D
Carla,
I’m sorry you are hurting so badly right now. I will pray for you and I know God is holding you close. You do so much for so many.
Carla, God is healing all your broken places this very minute.
“yes elizabeth….this poor african american girl had no chance”
So Heather (et al.) how would you feel about a boyfriend who used physical force to keep his pregnant girlfriend out of the clinic? Do you condone those men who, under threat of violence, make sure that the woman carries the child to term even if the woman is seeking to terminate the pregnancy? Is that somehow acceptable because, in your view, the man is somehow protecting his child? Is it OK because he is enabling the woman to do her “duty?”
im sorry that my pov isnt too popular but if we have 90 million dead in the name of “choice” that means that all of these women were victims? no i disagree. sorry
cc how does abortion end dv? i would advise the woman to leave the relationship.
Heather,
Here’s some scientific analysis to answer the issue of women as victims.
When given a poor prenatal diagnosis, such a trisomy 18, women are pressured by the medical geneticists, Ob’s, and family to abort.
When given the choice of perinatal hospice, and having that explained to them, 85% choose to deliver their babies
Well in excess of 95% of women who enter abortion clinics will abort. However, when women come to crisis pregnancy centers, many thinking they are coming to an abortion clinic, and hear the message of the staff, get presented with options for financial and other supports, and see a sonogram of their baby—90% choose to keep the child.
Women are lied to by their Ob’s, abortionists, family and friends. They are pressured and have real support options withheld from them. Far, far too many are cornered, and as the above stats show, if women are given breathing room and concrete support, they choose life 85-90% of the time.
From my study of eastern religions: The Koran says that without hope man is but an animal. I would add: And a victim in the making.
Carla,
You’ll hold Aubrey one day. So very many love you for the transformative gift of yourself to perfect strangers. This song’s for you. Love ya!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le-TG4sRRiQ
i thought this was a blog where one could express a different pov. i only said that not all women are victims in my opinion. people can take that or leave it. it wasnt said to put anyone “under attack”
Gerard, I would say that most women are victims. What about the 10% who see their babies on sonogram and still abort? What about this young man I know, whose girlfriend saw their baby on ultrasound and when he shed tears of joy over his child’s heartbeat said “What are you crying for? Even worms have heartbeats.” She aborted her child. Unmoved by the fact that the night before the abortion he begged her not to kill their child and then kissed her stomach and told his child goodbye and that he loved him/her and would see him/her in heaven.
Someone like that… they’re a victim? They’re spiritually blinded yes, but a victim? When someone has the information and STILL chooses to sin… well then we could say rapists are victims, thieves are victims, drug users are victims, pimps are victims, child abusers are victims, pedophiles are victims… I mean, then what sinner is NOT a victim and why not?
People say “Oh these women are deceived… they are hurting.” I will absolutely agree with that. Absolutely they have been deceived by the father of lies. Absolutely, sin hurts. But Sandusky who raped boys at Penn State was also deceived. He thought no one would ever find out. He thought he could satisfy his perversions and it would all be okay. He bought the lies. And the Bible says “Be sure your sin will find you out” and it did. And you better believe he is hurting. His career, reputation and family are destroyed. He may (hopefully) lose his freedom for a very long time. Sin has destroyed him. Is he a victim too?
Heather,
Yes, it is a place where people can express their unique POV. It’s other purpose is to promote constructive dialogue between differing POV’s.
While you may not have intended to attack anyone, a careful consideration of your audience would dictate care and concern for how you express your POV.
dr nadal…..i respect you and always have so point taken. i didnt mean to hurt anyone. however i also agree with sydney m. as she makes a valid point!!
many women who have abortions save their ultrasound pictures but did it anyway. i must admit that i was actually surprised that the abortion clinic gave it to them anyway! i figured they werent doing them. maybe many women are living in denial. im sorry if they are. i have met many women who have had abortions and they are bitter but sin is ugly and there is a reason they are this way. will all post abortive moms heal? no. do i hope they will yes.
Thanks, Heather.
no problem doctor nadal. i just want to add on to what sydney m. said…….what about the woman who steals food from the store because her kids are hungry? a victim…….id say so. but that doesnt matter to the law. also we have to be careful with labeling people victims because pretty much everyone could claim victimization. id just prefer to say sinner. weve all sinned.
“well then we could say rapists are victims, thieves are victims, drug users are victims, pimps are victims, child abusers are victims, pedophiles are victims… I mean, then what sinner is NOT a victim and why not?”
Yeah… some of these people are victims. When I was a thieving drug addict, I was both a victim of circumstances and lies, and a perpetrator of poor choices and crimes. Yes, at the age of fourteen I made the brilliant choice to take drugs, and as my addiction progressed I made the choice to steal to support it. But to say that I was solely a perpetrator, who does that help? In rehab they don’t tell you over and over again what a stupid criminal you are, that’s what jail is for and I can tell you that it doesn’t change anyone’s heart and mind. You have to learn what circumstances were beyond your control that caused you to be in the position that you were in, but you also have to take responsibility for the choices that you made. I couldn’t control my horribly abusive home, the fact that I was taught horribly wrong things about Christianity, the fact that I had zero trusted adults to turn to to talk about my problems, and the fact that the town I lived in glorified drug culture. I could learn to control the way I reacted to situations and make better decisions. I had control over myself, but I had to learn to make decisions that were completely antithetical to the way I was raised and what I was taught.
In the same vein, our society, like Alexandra mentioned, has been bombarded with pro-choice ideology and lies. My entire generation, and the one before me, and the one after me, has been told that that having an abortion is a perfectly legitimate option, akin to getting your wisdom teeth out. Women are encouraged or coerced to abort by counselors, boyfriends, husbands, parents, friends, and plenty of other people when a pregnancy is not perfect and planned. Poor women who have babies are ridiculed and called welfare queens, women in college who get pregnant have an immense amount of pressure to abort for their education (because we all know you can’t finish college with kids!), married women are encouraged to abort after they have the perfect 2.4 kids and a white picket fenced-in house in the suburbs. Motherhood is not looked upon as a legitimate “career choice”, and women are encouraged to put it off as long as possible through whatever means necessary. With all these lies, pressure, coercion, and socialization, how can you think that women are NOT victims of society and circumstances? They made the choice, yeah, but we all make bad choices in bad circumstances because we have bad information. I can’t condemn women who have abortions, it isn’t my place and it is cruel. I think that women who abort are victims of lies and society. Condemning them is to guarantee that they will not look for help when they need it, and will drive them to further perpetuate what drove them to abort in the first place.
Gerard, I missed your post. Brilliant.
jack that was a great post and im sorry for your struggle. but i disagree with part of it. so what if society pressures you? it doesnt mean you have to give in. you dont have to give into drugs just because they are there and its popular. sorry but i disagree.
like i said im sticking by what i say. some women are victims and some are not. if youre on your 9th abortion ( and many are past that number ) are you still a victim? or are you just using the clinic and tax dollars for birth control?
How was I supposed to know better, Heather? How was I to know how bad drugs were, how addicted I would become, how I would almost kill myself to get more? Why should I automatically know it was wrong, when everyone around me who was much older and “wiser” told me the best way to rid myself of my pain was to use drugs to make it go away?
On a more relevant note, how is the young woman supposed to know that the counselor is lying when she paints abortion as the best cure for her situation? How is she supposed to go against her family, the baby’s father, the abortion doctor, and everyone else who tells her this is the way to fix what ails her? How is she supposed to disbelieve all the propaganda that tells her that abortion is not killing, not harmful to women, and a simple procedure that won’t haunt her? I am genuinely asking you, how is she supposed to know?
jack ive been around the drug scene myself ( nope no drugs in cleveland ) and sure i was tempted but you make a choice to do it. or do you label yourself a victim…..and i did say that some women are victims and others arent if you read my post!
“cc how does abortion end dv? i would advise the woman to leave the relationship”
So don’t whine about the woman being coerced into an abortion clinic. She should “leave the relationship.” Right?
@ cc i have no idea what you are even talking about as usual. gotta go. its been fun. have a nice weekend all;)
“jack ive been around the drug scene myself ( nope no drugs in cleveland ) and sure i was tempted but you make a choice to do it. or do you label yourself a victim…..and i did say that some women are victims and others arent if you read my post!”
I would prefer to label myself as someone who made bad choices in horrible circumstances. I was a victim who became a perpetrator because of the victimization. Didn’t make what I did right, but neither has it ever helped anyone to have it bashed into your head what a horrible thing you did. I don’t see the point of sitting around saying “You did it!! You made your bed and now you lie in it!” Who do you guys think you are helping when you deny hurting people help by your attitude?
I have done a complete turn-around in my thinking(regarding my feelings towards women who have abortions) since I was young. When I was 14 or 15 and saw the “infamous” picture of Gerri Santoro – the woman who performed a “coat hanger abortion” on herself and died as a result.
I just remember thinking “Well..GOOD! That’s what you get for killing your baby!”
My Christianity had not matured yet.
Now I feel (mostly) pity for the woman/girls who find themselves in situations where they think abortion is their only option. I pity their desperation.
I admit, I still have a problem with the ones who KNOW it’s not their only option, and do it anyway. The ones who seem to use it for birth control,etc. but I pity their “blindness”, the hardness of their hearts…and I pray for them.
First, I think there is this idea that if I don’t see post-abortive women as victims that I am somehow not sympathetic towards them, feel no compassion for them or think they deserve their pain or that I glory in it or that I hate them. Nothing is further from the truth.
I appreciate your point Jack. I am sorry for your struggle and glad you have made good choices and to come out of it. I am also sorry for your horrible upbringing. But I think there is a difference between a reason why something happened and an excuse.
I think that is the issue I have with “But I’m a victim!!!!” mentality. Others may disagree with me and thats fine but when I see someone who has made bad choices and sinned, no matter the reason, I can understand and appreciate the reasons behind those bad choices but what I absolutely cringe when I hear is “How was I supposed to know? I’m a victim…” To me its saying “I have no culpability for the wrong I have committed…” When someone sees themselves as a victim then how are they going to get to a place where they need a Savior? Where they need forgiveness? How will they repent when their mindset is “Well I didn’t know…”
It just reminds me of my 5 year old when he is shown he did wrong and he bombards me with 50 different excuses of why he did wrong. That shows me his heart is not in a place of remorse and repentance.
That is why I object to this “but they’re victims!!!!” argument. EVERY sinner is affected negatively by sin. Sin corrodes every life it touches. Because sin hurts us does not make us victims. It makes us sinners in desperate need of our gracious and loving Savior.
And I say this as a sinner. I say this as someone who made terrible choices and committed sin. Sin that still affects me to this day. I am not a victim. I had reasons why I made those stupid choices. Why I chose to sin. But I make no excuse. I am a sinner forgiven by the grace and mercy of God.
So Heather (et al.) how would you feel about a boyfriend who used physical force to keep his pregnant girlfriend out of the clinic? Do you condone those men who, under threat of violence, make sure that the woman carries the child to term even if the woman is seeking to terminate the pregnancy?
Does anyone know the stats on this? Are women being held captive until they give birth?
Once abortion is illegal, no one can keep a woman from a mill that doesn’t exist so there will be no worries.
Sydney,
“Gerard, I would say that most women are victims. What about the 10% who see their babies on sonogram and still abort? ”
I don’t know what to say about that 10%. I worked with teens in crisis for years. Some are horrifically damaged human beings, and their damage has completely distorted the lens of perspective for them.
Many live in fear of what awaits them at home if they don’t abort. Many have been conditioned into feelings of worthlessness, which almost always prevents them from seeing intrinsic value in others, allowing them only to see others in the same utilitarian capacity that they have themselves been treated with.
I don’t ever discount or underestimate the effects of fear, self-loathing, helplessness and hopelessness.
In the end, I think that there are very few who abort who are simply selfish. The act of abortion requires a rupture with one’s very nature, and that requires a woman to have suffered unspeakable treatment to pull off.
Carla,
You asked us what we (pro-choicers) think about her quote, since she “admitted that the pictures are real, that the babies are being killed” (quotes to summarize your argument, not to say those were your literal words, my laptop won’t let me copy and paste)…
She never said in the quotes you provided, nor in the full article, that the pictures were of babies. I’d argue with her a bit about all the pictures being real… but I think she meant the pictures of actual abortions, so I let that slide. Fetus =/= Baby. Baby is born, fetus is not. She never said that the pictures are real pictures of babies being killed by abortion. She said they’re real pictures of what a fetus looks like during an abortion.
So, my response, So what?
More power to her. Also, please when your asking questions about what we pro-choicers think about her “admittance” can we remember to refer to her quote correctly? In the article she states that fetus =/= baby, and the cited quote you used, does not say baby… yet you asked us what we think of her saying the baby killed pictures are real…
Accuracy is very important.
“That is what a fetus looks like when its head is crushed.”
Is that better? That is her quote. And you say, “So what?”
I suggest you quote me accurately as well. I asked PRO ABORTS not pro choicers.
Accuracy is certainly very important.
Especially if you are an abortionist.
“Do you lump her in with the rest of us crazies that believe life begins at conception?” – we all know that conception begins the development of a human, it is a form of life.
“Do you ignore her?” – no, but I don’t feel any need to carry on about it either.
“Do you chastise her?” – no, she’s not doing anything wrong.
“Should she just shut her mouth?” – not at all.
“Must you distance yourself from one of your own?” – no, she’s doing good work for women.
Accuracy is very important.
Abortion kills a human.
THANK YOU for the thoughts and prayers today.
All is well.
Duck Reality,
What are your thoughts on Mary’s willingness to be involved with illegal abortions someday?
there’s no such thing as pro aborts. And yes, so what? Good for her.
Praxedes,
I’m not sure what I think of that… Because I doubt the possibility of abortions becoming fully illegal, I haven’t put much thought to it. Give me some time to think about it, and I’ll let you know.
Duck
“there’s no such thing as pro aborts”
Really? http://wiredfornoise.com/pro-choice-verses-pro-abortion
Thanks Duck.
I think that women who abort are victims of lies and society. Condemning them is to guarantee that they will not look for help when they need it, and will drive them to further perpetuate what drove them to abort in the first place.
I have to disagree with you. There are SOME women who are coerced into abortion, but many are not. I think I told the story of a couple I knew, very affluent, who became pregnant and had an abortion because they wanted to remain childfree. The woman said “all my friends have had one” as if she was talking about botox injections or something. Very callous and nonchalant. Please tell me how this woman was being victimized.
I get tired of hearing how “society” forces people to do things. I am a member of society in fairly good standing, and I am not responsible for any one’s drug problem, abortion, lousy childhood, etc. At the end of the day, we all have a free will.
Jack, I disagree with that author. Pro-abortion is a term used by your crowd to signify all pro-choicers as forcing women into abortions. The difference, is that we are for women to choose whatever they like for themselves, whether that’s abortion, adoption, contraception, birth and raising, whatever. Hence the reason why, I and many (the majority of pro-choicers) say there is no such thing as a “pro-abort”. It’s a mythical term used by the anti-choice crowd.
At least she would be trying to ensure greater safety and comfort for women Praxedes. While I don’t outright support law breaking, bad laws are regulary ignored or not enforced, such as with pot.
If you are struggling after your abortion please know that there is help and hope and healing for you!! You are not alone!!
Many Pregnancy Centers have abortion recovery programs. Please call your nearest one and ask.
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
This hotline is staffed 24 hours a day by post abortive men and women. They will refer you to abortion recovery programs near you.
Please find a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat in your area.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
You can email me if you would like.
carla@jillstanek.com
I am praying for you.
“I can understand and appreciate the reasons behind those bad choices but what I absolutely cringe when I hear is “How was I supposed to know? I’m a victim…” To me its saying “I have no culpability for the wrong I have committed…” When someone sees themselves as a victim then how are they going to get to a place where they need a Savior? Where they need forgiveness? How will they repent when their mindset is “Well I didn’t know…””
It takes a long time, when you are working on bad decisions that you made because of bad things that were done to you, to get to the point where you are ready to realistically look at what decisions you made that helped to cause your problems. You need care and compassion to get to the point where you can realistically look at what you did wrong, and what the reasons were behind that. And that isn’t a job for random people who know nothing of your situation to judge and throw stones at you, which is what I see on this and other pro-life sites.
“I have to disagree with you. There are SOME women who are coerced into abortion, but many are not. I think I told the story of a couple I knew, very affluent, who became pregnant and had an abortion because they wanted to remain childfree. The woman said “all my friends have had one” as if she was talking about botox injections or something. Very callous and nonchalant. Please tell me how this woman was being victimized.”
I don’t know, I don’t know her. Do you know everything about her life, her marriage, what she was raised to think is moral, what she has been told about herself and her capacity to raise a child, whether or not she has bought into the “not a baby” stuff, etc, etc, etc? Victimization in regards to abortion is on a large scale in our society, when doctors deny the humanity of a fetus, poor women are convinced it’s more loving to kill their fetus then bring it into poor circumstances, and kids are raised being told it’s just fine that they/their sisters/girfriends/mothers abort if they don’t want a child. That’s not even touching on the gazillion reasons a mother might not feel emotionally capable of raising a child, and isn’t given real support. She just hears “you don’t have to have a kid, abortion is perfectly fine!”
“I get tired of hearing how “society” forces people to do things. I am a member of society in fairly good standing, and I am not responsible for any one’s drug problem, abortion, lousy childhood, etc. At the end of the day, we all have a free will.”
We may all have free will, but we all have different abilities to handle trauma, and we all have breaking points. When our entire system is skewed to encourage women to abort, encourage drug addicts not to seek help because it’s “their fault”, when people look the other way when children are abused because they don’t want to get involved… Yeah, I see that as a problem with society more than the individual. And that isn’t even mentioning any emotional issues or mental problems that any individual has that may cause them to make bad decisions. I just think the “free will” cop out really means nothing when it comes to actually solving the problems in this world.
“Jack, I disagree with that author. Pro-abortion is a term used by your crowd to signify all pro-choicers as forcing women into abortions. The difference, is that we are for women to choose whatever they like for themselves, whether that’s abortion, adoption, contraception, birth and raising, whatever. Hence the reason why, I and many (the majority of pro-choicers) say there is no such thing as a “pro-abort”. It’s a mythical term used by the anti-choice crowd.”
Well, you are claiming that “no one is pro-abortion”, so I gave you an example of someone who does. I don’t refer to pro-choicers as pro-abortion, but when they own the label I can’t really call them anything else, can I?
Given that one of my readers, just informed me that they identify as pro-abortion, I’ll have to revise my statement. There are a few pro-abortion identifying people, they are not however, the same as your crowd’s (not you personally Jack, but your crowd) pro-abort boogey man. That myth simply doesn’t exist. It’s just a boogey man to scare people into being pro-life.
Hi Duck,
I wasn’t talking to you. I was talking to any post abortive woman or man who might happen to be reading this thread and is in need of help.
Anyone who is prochoice on abortion is proabortion.
“There are a few pro-abortion identifying people, they are not however, the same as your crowd’s (not you personally Jack, but your crowd) pro-abort boogey man. That myth simply doesn’t exist. It’s just a boogey man to scare people into being pro-life.”
Um, ok. So you are of the opinion there are literally no people ever who would convince others to abort for their own reasons? Out of the billions of people on the planet, there are NO people like that? I think you are reaching to state things that you cannot possibly know.
Carla, I wasn’t talking to you either. I was talking to anyone reading this thread, who needs to talk to someone. I happen to be a person who connects those who need to talk, with the resources available to them. Kind of like what the people who work suicide hotlines do.
Jack, people who take advantage of others for their own purposes aren’t pro anything but self-interest. To them, whether it’s abortion, prostitution, drugs, lobbying, financial hedge managing, steroid use in sports, or whatever topic you can think of, to put those who are abusing/breaking the law for self interest and greed in the same category who support people’s right to do/not do something, is just inaccurate.
Jack said: “It takes a long time, when you are working on bad decisions that you made because of bad things that were done to you, to get to the point where you are ready to realistically look at what decisions you made that helped to cause your problems. You need care and compassion to get to the point where you can realistically look at what you did wrong, and what the reasons were behind that. And that isn’t a job for random people who know nothing of your situation to judge and throw stones at you, which is what I see on this and other pro-life sites. ”
The key phrase to this would be “where you can realistically look at what you did WRONG.” That would be key. Knowing you did wrong and not making excuses for it. And I’m sorry but no one is throwing stones. If you put your story out there you open yourself up to discussion, do you not? No one asked you to share your story. You chose to (and I appreciate your input).
We are all born with sin natures but we are not robots. As Phillymiss pointed out, we have free will. Ignorance is no excuse for sin. In the Bible you will see clearly God did not let people off the hook just because they didn’t know. Romans 1:20 says nature speaks of her Creator so that they are without excuse. I do believe people are born with a moral compass that God instills. We sin and our conscience tells us “That was wrong.” Even people who aren’t Christians have this. Those who seek to know God and His will will find it. He promises. He gives us His Word so that we may know His mind. If someone chooses to ignore their conscience or refuses to pick up the Word of God and read it… well that doesn’t somehow absolve them of their sin! This whole “These women are not culpable… drug dealers are not culpable… no one is!” mentality is just so against Scripture.
This isn’t speaking in judgement. We are ALL sinners. And God loves us ALL. Jesus died for ALL. He seeks to restore ALL. His heart is full of compassion and love for EVERY sinner.
If you have any abortion recovery resources for those hurting after their abortions please list them.
Thanks, Duck
Carla,
I speak more generally. I would recommend someone needing to talk about abortion to the same resources as anyone needing to talk to a therapist. A local, certified, trained, licensed, medical therapist, counselor, psychologist, or social worker.
As a trained and certified Rachel’s Vineyard facilitator it is my experience that those who have aborted find comfort in speaking with someone who has also aborted and found abortion recovery.
Move on, troll.
“Anyone who is prochoice on abortion is proabortion.”
And anyone who is anti-choice on abortion is anti-choice.
Pro-abortion is a term used by your crowd to signify all pro-choicers as forcing women into abortions.
Pardon me? Since when? No one I’ve ever met – including pro-choicers – has ever used the term this way.
Pro-abortion means you believe abortion is a force for good and can be a benefit to this world and to women.
If you believe this, then you are pro-abortion.
“The key phrase to this would be “where you can realistically look at what you did WRONG.” That would be key. Knowing you did wrong and not making excuses for it. And I’m sorry but no one is throwing stones. If you put your story out there you open yourself up to discussion, do you not? No one asked you to share your story. You chose to (and I appreciate your input). ”
I was talking in general, I really don’t care what people say about me or else I wouldn’t bring up my personal life. I have heard it all before.
When I see people talk about this woman or that who aborted for this or that reason and how selfish and awful that is, I can’t help but shake my head. Because you DON’T know, because you are not that other person. I hid my pain for years, I was smiling all the time, a total smart a$$, no one would have guessed the horrible things I did to myself and others were desperate attempts to stop the suicidal and self-hating thoughts and pain I had all the time. You don’t know that some woman aborted for that reason, and telling her over and over again how selfish she is does the opposite of good. Why in God’s good name would she come to someone who talks about post-abortive women like that? On this blog alone I have seen post-abortive women called selfish, seen them accused of sleeping around, seen them accused of being Satanic, seen them accused of hating children… on and on and on and none of it does a lick of good. People need acceptance, mercy and love when they are hurting, not someone to tell them about all the things they have done wrong. Again, it is NOT your place, and you can do real damage. Do you care about that, or do you want to push what you think is right?
And I am not a Christian, so I don’t really go by the Bible. But I know Carla does, and she seems to have interpreted this differently. And really, if God knows all he certainly knows about mental damage done to people who have been traumatized or lied to their entire lives.
I’m not a troll in this thread. You asked a question, and I answered. I just figured that we never know, nor should we assume, that just because this is a “pro-life” blog doesn’t mean that people who are readers aren’t suffering from depressive and/or suicidal thoughts unrelated to abortion. I was simply stating, that regardless of someone’s need to talk to someone, they should seek help with licensed and certified medical counselors. So, when you commented about seeking help for abortion, I said if you’re seeking help about anything… that was all. That does not make me a troll.
What makes you a troll is linking to your pro abort facebook page and this thread and inviting your “readers” to come and take a look at all the fun you seem to be having at Jills!!
Whoo Hoo!! Go Duck.
And anyone who is anti-choice on abortion is anti-choice.
Sorry, it doesn’t work this way.
Unless you believe abortion = total and complete, all-encompassing freedom.
Which, you probably do.
Why the he** do these pro-abortion people come here? Seriously. You like abortion, you think it’s good, that it helps people and helps the planet, and grants women total and complete freedom and equality with men in every way (as if they don’t have equality without it). You won’t admit that crushing the HEAD of a FETUS is the same as crushing the HEAD of any other HUMAN.
I hope you enjoy your stay in crazy words-mean-whatever-the-crap-I-want-them-to-mean land.
When I was a thieving drug addict, I was both a victim of circumstances and lies, and a perpetrator of poor choices and crimes. Yes, at the age of fourteen I made the brilliant choice to take drugs, and as my addiction progressed I made the choice to steal to support it. But to say that I was solely a perpetrator, who does that help? In rehab they don’t tell you over and over again what a stupid criminal you are, that’s what jail is for and I can tell you that it doesn’t change anyone’s heart and mind
Jack, aside from any differences you and I have, your posts are great, and there’s no question you’re laying out the truth as you see it.
Cheers,
Doug
Carla, no one can see my linked facebook page but you. I can try to click on my name or my non-existent gravatar all I want and nothing will turn up. As moderator, you’re privy to the info that I’m required to fill in to comment, but that does not show up for the average reader. So, as I said, answering specifically your question about what pro-choicers thought about this abortion doula, and then building on your reach out for those hurting and needing to talk, to all who are hurting and needing to talk, because again we shouldn’t assume, does not make me a troll. Besides, that Jill knows quite well what I think of her posts, as she’s been a follower of my page since our interview this summer. But again, not everyone can see the linked page, only you and the other moderators can. So, again, on this thread, I am not a troll.
Phillymiss: I get tired of hearing how “society” forces people to do things. I am a member of society in fairly good standing, and I am not responsible for any one’s drug problem, abortion, lousy childhood, etc. At the end of the day, we all have a free will.
Right on. Short of physical compulsion, we do what we want the most, or that which we have the least distaste for. – we pick from among our available choices.
Duck: Hence the reason why, I and many (the majority of pro-choicers) say there is no such thing as a “pro-abort”. It’s a mythical term used by the anti-choice crowd.
Correct – if you have somebody who is actually “pro-abortion,” then they are as anti-choice as any pro-lifer. Sometimes there is a desire for “bumper-sticker” slogans and silly emotional stuff, but that’s not any meaningful statement in the abortion argument.
And anyone who is anti-choice on abortion is anti-choice.
“Sorry, it doesn’t work this way.” – well actually it does. Abortion is one of a range of legal and legitimate choices. You say it isn’t or shouldn’t be therefore you are anti-choice.
So Reality, because you probably don’t want rape to be a choice, you’re anti-choice too.
If you say so, Duck.
“And anyone who is anti-choice on abortion is anti-choice.”
Reality: “Sorry, it doesn’t work this way.” – well actually it does. Abortion is one of a range of legal and legitimate choices. You say it isn’t or shouldn’t be therefore you are anti-choice.
Well sure – on a given thing, we may be pro-choice or anti-choice, to be sure.
Sydney,
We have talked and talked and talked about this. We have gone back and forth and agreed to disagree at times.
Believe me when I tell you that ANY woman who finds herself NEEDING and WANTING help after abortion knows damn well what abortion has cost her. She knows! She was there! She paid for it! You don’t get to the end of yourself and blame someone else. You accept it ALL. Believe me. How could I ever ask Him for forgiveness if I didn’t think I did anything wrong?!
The circumstances surrounding any woman’s abortion are unique to her. IF she so desires healing and abortion recovery she admits, takes responsibility and is culpable for it all as she stands before Christ and ask for forgiveness!! He knows her heart.
I have to wonder if everything you have typed here today you would say to a post abortive friend who is sobbing in your arms. Would you? Would you tell her to stop being a victim? Would you tell her she made her choice? Would you say, “Well you had free will??!!” OR would you just hold her and let her cry it out? And point her in the direction of help?
Just as you pray for me, I am praying for you.
PS
I have never met any post abortive woman who has ever said to me, “But I’m a victim!!” I am not sure where you are getting that. I, do indeed, think post abortive women are. But you know that.
Thanks Doug. :)
I feel like I don’t explain my points well in writing, though. All I am really trying to say is that no one knows someone else’s situation, and that instead of judging they should focus on loving and caring for that person. It is pretty cruel and very counterproductive to sit around and condemn others for making bad decisions. People need love and acceptance to get to the point where they can talk about what they have done wrong. It seems like a lot of pro-lifers, or people against drug use, or whatever current societal ill we are talking about, focus a ton on the BAD THINGS that each person has done, instead of WHY they did it, and what we can all do as a society to change things so less people feel forced into these bad decisions.
While I don’t outright support law breaking, bad laws are regulary ignored or not enforced, such as with pot.
Yeah, you do. You and Mary outright support law breaking. So in the World According to Duck, keeping pot illegal is a bad law but killing your offspring will always be a good law. Nice to know that you admit some laws are bad anyway. I personally believe it would do your body and brain some good to slow down a bit on on the wacky tabacky.
And just what police departments and courts are regularly ignoring and not enforcing drug laws? Let me know, please, so I can start my protests. I cannot respect those who are paid to uphold the laws if they are regularly ignoring and not enforcing the laws.
We were discussing this in relation to abortion Courtnay, I was talking about pro-choice and anti-choice in regards to womens fertlity choices, not rape or ice-cream flavours.
“Yeah, you do” – ok, show me where Praxedes.
All I am really trying to say is that no one knows someone else’s situation
Yes, exactly, Jack. People can talk about free will all they want but how are you supposed to know, if you haven’t been taught? I learned what abortion was in fourth grade, when the subject of a biography I was reading had a mother who died from a botched abortion. I asked my mother what both words meant and I came away with the distinct impression that “botched” was a much more horrifying word than “abortion.” To this day I still cannot stand the word botched. When I was older and discussed abortion in more nuanced ways with my parents, my mother told me about how she had helped my aunt get an abortion, and how abortion is a terrible but sometimes necessary thing; and how she had sat in that waiting room saying, silently, “I’m so sorry, baby. I wish I could take you and make you mine instead but I can’t,” and how two weeks later she discovered she was pregnant with me and she always liked to believe on some level that I was the spirit of the baby her sister could not have. It made me sad but I felt the comfort she felt, in that story, even as we both blushed at our own silly rationalizations, not being especially spiritual people of any stripe.
I never met an openly, actively pro-life person until I was about 20 or so, and he was one random jerk. I never encountered valid pro-life arguments and I actually remember once even making the absurd argument that okay, let’s say we aren’t sure if abortion is right or wrong – isn’t it better to give women their full rights until we KNOW that abortion is wrong? Just in case it isn’t? That’s how little I actually grasped the concept of the pro-life argument.
And then I was pregnant at a time when it was really…not a good time. It wasn’t a bad time but it wasn’t a great time. And so I knew, having grown up with the internet and AP biology, that it wasn’t a “clump of cells.” But I also knew that my aunt had done this, that my mother had told me it was sad and terrible but necessary; that every adult I knew and loved and trusted knew these facts of fetal life and yet still maintained that abortion was a valid choice. How could they all be wrong? And wouldn’t my life be easier if they were all right?
So yes, everyone has free will. But it takes enormous effort to step outside of your own environment and your own socialization, and it takes astronomical effort to do that in a time of crisis. Yes, some people do it. But many don’t.
Alexandra, what about your abortion was “necessary”? What is sad and terrible about a baby?
And if we didn’t know whether abortion was the taking of a human life or not, shouldn’t we err on the side of life? Because death is forever and killing your child is serious.
Courtnay, I think you misunderstood Alexandra’s points there. She was talking about how she was misinformed as a young girl and woman.
Excellent post Alexandra.
Lol! Reality, your response to me is nonsensical, and for once I’m going to have to agree with Doug’s response (has hell frozen over?) that on any given subject one can be for that choice or against that choice. That’s a bit of a “duh” and I don’t really know why you made that comment in the first place unless you were just trying to be a snot and turn the saying around… Which didn’t work at all, and you’re aware it didn’t.
We are against the choice of abortion. Yes. But we are not against all choices.
Am I really having this inane conversation?? Wow.
Praxedes, are you putting words in my mouth about pot illegal being a bad law and abortion a good law? I told you earlier, I would give some thought to the comments Mary the doula made about doing illegal abortions. Seeing as it’s a hefty issue, and I’m a very analytical thinker, it will be a awhile, as in days or weeks before I reason out a position on the issue. I do think that pot and other drugs should be legalised (even though I’ve never used any of them in my life) for very specific and analytical reasons. I think abortion should remain legal for very specific and analytical reasons. I’m not a big proponent of breaking the law. So, again, I’d have to give that some thought. Please don’t attribute things to being the “world according to Duck” while making a point about what others think. Thank you.
Doug: Correct – if you have somebody who is actually “pro-abortion,” then they are as anti-choice as any pro-lifer. Sometimes there is a desire for “bumper-sticker” slogans and silly emotional stuff, but that’s not any meaningful statement in the abortion argument.
Me: Uh, I’m sorry to break it to you but there really ARE people in this world who are FOR abortion – nit just for allowing women the option to abort, but for abortion, because they believe it is a means to an end – saving the planet or what have you. I know, because I have talked to people personally who feel this way. Jack obviously sees that there are others out there who feel that way as well.
Most of the pro-choice crowd who frequent these comment boards really are pro-choice (for a woman having a right to kill her child if she so chooses). But there are others who believe abortion is a true moral good.
Carla, Sydney –
Oddly, I feel like you are saying the same thing but continue to misunderstand one another.
Sydney is saying that we are all without excuse for our sin and we can only find forgiveness in Christ.
Carla is saying that the post-abortive women she has met have already repented and asked Christ for forgiveness.
Sydney is talking not about people who have already repented for sin, but about those who need to be made aware that they cannot put blame or excuses for their sin on anyone else if they are to ever find forgiveness.
Carla is talking about post abortive women who have stopped making excuses and own what they have done.
I don’t think you disagree, but you both seem to think you do.
That is why you’re going around and around about this trying to explain yourselves.
I agree with BOTH of you, and I don’t think I’d be able to do that I your views were diametrically opposed.
“Uh, I’m sorry to break it to you but there really ARE people in this world who are FOR abortion – nit just for allowing women the option to abort, but for abortion, because they believe it is a means to an end – saving the planet or what have you.”
The “better aborted than abused” people are the ones I usually see doing this. They tend to argue that it is kind or caring to encourage an abortion of a baby that might be born into bad circumstances. That would seem to be “pro-abortion” rather than pro-choice, if you have the idea that abortion is a solution that you would like to see to a specific problem. The uber environmentalists also argue like that. I think that most people who are pro-choice really are pro- the pregnant woman making the choice that is “best” for her, but there are those that would like to see more abortions.
Hey Duck, My bad. Please accept my sincere apology. The quote I copied was that of Reality’s, not yours.
Reality was responding to what I asked you and I assumed (I know, I know) that it was you replying. My last post should have been addressed to Reality. Maybe I took in too much second-hand in my younger years (:
I look forward to hearing your thoughts about Mary admitting she would break the law regarding illegal abortions.
I try not to talk about this stuff so much due to my experiences. I try to have patience with mothers who have aborted, but then I look at my daughter and think that someone wanted her to have that fate, then think about those women who had living children just like her that they killed…all I can think about is that little boy or girl that was just like my kid that died…I think that having patience like that is beyond my capabilities.
Especially considering some of the exchanges I’ve had with these women. As if not killing my daughter when I “should’ve” or “could’ve” made me a lesser person than they, and they feign concern for my daughter’s well-being because I must be such a horrible mother/person to bring a child into the world the way I did, when they killed their own children!!! I just cannot have understanding or patience for these women. It is so very, very hard not to hate them.
Why is she working for Satan? Umm, Satan is an imaginary entity, sillies!
Science! Science! Science! Woooo!!!
Get thee behind me, Ashtar!
This is just sick! May Jesus have Mercy on their Soul!!!!
Thanks, Kel.
xalisae,
Thank you for your honesty. Only God can soften our hearts toward others who do things we would NEVER consider doing. Not just talking about abortion here. Child abuse, drug addiction, rape etc.
Unrepentant post abortive women are hard to be around. I have to limit my contact with them. I do pray for them but their constant telling me that I should “knock it off” gets tiring. And keeps me more determined to yap at the same time!! :)
I am sorry there are women in your life that berate you for NOT aborting your precious daughter!! Keep yourself and your girly away from them.
eh i was going to leave this thread alone but i have to make a point to jack. i just must. jack adultery is legal but immoral just like abortion. you cant get arrested or anything like that. it was my chosen sin in my 20s. i did it. i own it. i am NOT a victim! and finally the good lord kicked my behind because of it. was i a victim because i craved love and acceptance no matter who it was coming from? was i a victim because i didnt have a husband and i was miserable? no no and no! i really didnt have god in my life but i blamed god for my misery. and btw who is throwing stones? its called a debate. are you going to condone my adultery……i sure hope not but i dont mind telling you that i ended up sobbing at the cross for christ to forgive me. once forgiven you do not walk backwards. you shed your skin and become a new.creature. god called me out of that lifestyle of filth. he called me back to him. i am forever greatful.
Duck: Pro-abortion is a term used by your crowd to signify all pro-choicers as forcing women into abortions. The difference, is that we are for women to choose whatever they like for themselves, whether that’s abortion, adoption, contraception, birth and raising, whatever. Hence the reason why, I and many (the majority of pro-choicers) say there is no such thing as a “pro-abort”. It’s a mythical term used by the anti-choice crowd.
I don’t think it’s really “mythical.” There indeed are some people – perhaps those who believe the cuts in the population are essential – who really are “for abortion,” per se. Your point that pro-choicers are different, is entirely valid, of course.
Most of the “pro-abortion” usage is on the part of pro-lifers who want a more “bumper-sticker” approach, who think it sounds “worse” than “pro-choice,” and the same is true of pro-choicers who say “anti-choicers.” Meanwhile, pro-life and pro-choice are understood just fine by almost everybody if not everybody.
There really are some people who are “for abortion” and Adolph Hitler was one. He was demonstrably “anti-choice” and wanted abortions forbidden for Aryan women and compulsory for some others.
Jack: It is pretty cruel and very counterproductive to sit around and condemn others for making bad decisions. People need love and acceptance to get to the point where they can talk about what they have done wrong. It seems like a lot of pro-lifers, or people against drug use, or whatever current societal ill we are talking about, focus a ton on the BAD THINGS that each person has done, instead of WHY they did it, and what we can all do as a society to change things so less people feel forced into these bad decisions.
Jack, your points come across quite well in your writing. You know, some people, including some pro-choicers, want to be on a “team” and be against “the other side,” be it real or imaginary, and some are mean-spirited about it, etc.
As far as changing things, that’s a tall order. Things may improve in one area but get worse in another, or a new problem may arise. This is general, I know, but human entities – individuals, groups, entire societies, etc., sometimes have to learn the hard way, or learn the hard way over and over and over….
That’s why I say “pro-legal-abortionist(s)”. It’s accurate.
Science! Science! Science! Woooo!!!
YEAH!! WOOO SCIENCE!!! Abortion kills a living human being who is the biological child of the pregnant mother procuring the operation. Therefore, it is a human rights violation of epic proportions.
Doug: :Correct – if you have somebody who is actually “pro-abortion,” then they are as anti-choice as any pro-lifer. Sometimes there is a desire for “bumper-sticker” slogans and silly emotional stuff, but that’s not any meaningful statement in the abortion argument.”
Kel: Uh, I’m sorry to break it to you but there really ARE people in this world who are FOR abortion – nit just for allowing women the option to abort, but for abortion, because they believe it is a means to an end – saving the planet or what have you. I know, because I have talked to people personally who feel this way. Jack obviously sees that there are others out there who feel that way as well.
Okay, and those people are not pro-choice but anti-choice if they really are “for abortion,” per se.
____
Most of the pro-choice crowd who frequent these comment boards really are pro-choice (for a woman having a right to kill her child if she so chooses). But there are others who believe abortion is a true moral good.
Well, not “kill her child,” but if somebody is looking at things like such-and-such woman *should have an abortion* based on the speaker’s desire rather than that of the pregnant woman, then I certainly agree they are not pro-choice but rather pro-abortion. They don’t represent any meaningful part of the abortion debate, that I see, though.
Kel: Lol! Reality, your response to me is nonsensical, and for once I’m going to have to agree with Doug’s response (has hell frozen over?) that on any given subject one can be for that choice or against that choice. That’s a bit of a “duh” and I don’t really know why you made that comment in the first place unless you were just trying to be a snot and turn the saying around… Which didn’t work at all, and you’re aware it didn’t.
We are against the choice of abortion. Yes. But we are not against all choices.
Well of course, Kel, but in the context of the abortion debate that the “choice” is the legal choice of abortion is understood from the get-go.
However, I did see in USA Today that there are reports of leetle devils wearing ice skates…. ;)
Carla: Sorry. I need a Doug free day today.
You had a partially Doug-free day yesterday. ;)
____
Thanks for the thoughts. Honestly. I need to hear what others think or believe. Sometimes I feel as though nobody wants to “hurt me.” But honest discussion it good. It keeps me doing what I’m doing.
(Later, in the evening): All is well.
I do think there are some times like “might-be-good-to-be-walking-on-eggshells-about-now”….
Carla, I have no doubt that you believe and are being honest in all you say. I do wonder, at times, just how well your approach is working for you. I’m not trying to sound critical nor saying you should feel or do anything differently.
For you, in the here-and-now, I hope you’re happy and want nothing but the best for you, and I also hope that everybody, be they pro-life or pro-choice, feels the same way.
Praxedes, Apology accepted, we all make mistakes, no worries. Since by the time I work out all the reason, logic, and analytics behind my soon to be position on Mary’s willingness to commit illegal abortion this thread will be forgotten, email me at duckishighonquack@yahoo.com. That way I’ll have your preferred email to send you my thoughts.
Duck
Hi Doug,
I had several friends praying for me yesterday. I prayed for much of the day. I take it all to The Only One that really knows me and my heart and knows my abortion story better than I do.
No matter how hard life gets and how hard it is to carry my abortion after 21 years He will be there for me and I will turn to Him.
As far as what you or others think I should be doing or not doing or what my approach is…I take my cues from Him too.
While I was praying yesterday I was asking Him what He would like me to do. What shall I do with my story? Where do you want me to go?
I received an invite to speak at a women’s group gathering.
PS
I am doing what all of my other forgiven post abortive sisters are doing. Staying Silent No More. :)
Praise God for that invitation to speak, Carla!! :) Woohoo!!
He is opening all the right doors for you. I can’t wait to see the direction He is leading you.
How’s everybody doing today?
Glad to hear it.
Carry on…
Heather, I don’t “condone” adultry anymore than I condone abortion or drug abuse, I think you missed my points.
Courtnay, Jack is right. I was not defending my prior argument or endorsing my choices, and explicitly stated that my thinking demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of even the most basic pro-life argument. Did you read my entire comment?
Alex, got it.
If Mary Mahoney had lived in Germany in 1945:
“Those movies the Allies show are real. That is what Jews looks like when they are shot and bulldozed into mass graves.
When you see the procedure, you must decide, as a German citizen, whether you are in or out. … I have never been more in….”