Abortion makes lonely toys cry on Christmas billboard
An AdWeek blogger is one of those who doesn’t like a new pro-life billboard now on display in Toronto, Canada:
OneToronto’s Niagara Region Right to Life organization blames abortion for the “coarsening of politics and civic life,” but they’re the ones guilt-tripping people with sad-toy-themed billboards a week before Christmas.
If this is the only alternative to all the inappropriately sexual Christmas ads I’ve been seeing, then bring on the smut.
Niagara Region Right to Life’s Suresh Dominic told me this morning the organization gets calls from both sides, supporters and opponents, when it erects its controversial crying toy billboard for a month each Christmas season, which it has been doing for five years.
“The other side is angry, but we are not angry,” said Dominic, who added the billboard wins converts.
“I got a call last year from a young doctor who was upset, telling me this should not go up at Christmas time, there are too many children going hungry and homeless,” said Dominic. “I asked her, because she was a doctor, ‘Do you believe live begins at the moment of conception?’ Finally she agreed and had a conversion of heart.”
Actually, this billboard concept has been around awhile. Wrote Dave Andrusko of National Right to Life today:
“Some Toys Will Have Fewer Children to Play With this Year” is not a new billboard. I took a few minutes out and found (to my surprise) that we first ran this image on the back cover of National Right to Life News on December 7, 1981, three months after I had become editor!
I am not kidding when I say that over the years the billboard has evoked some of the worse responses from our benighted opposition that I’ve ever read. Why do pro-abortionists rage against the Toy soldier?…
As a friend described it to me, “The billboard drives the pro-choice side crazy and makes pro-lifers smile because of the implicit message that children are delightfully winsome creatures who play with toys and bring joy and innocence into this jaded and materialistic world.”
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
abortion breaks my heart. i weep often about it. thats just me. no child should ever be tossed into a dumpster drain or landfill.
Don’t feed the troll (@ 11:40 AM), y’all…
Gotchya Paladin. Actually the comment speaks for itself. Culture of death.
I think its interesting that the pro-aborts are hysterical when we show graphic signs and even MORE hysterical over this sign which is non-graphic! So much so they’d rather have smut on a billboard than a toy soldier and the idea that there are less children in the world who should have been here if it were not for legal abortion.
reminds me of the Island of Misfit toys….
This billboard speaks! its so true that many children have been denied a Christmas. And many toys will be not be played with because of those abortions.
I’m sure this comment will be filtered but I have to sya it. A fetus is not a child.
Why in the world would your opinion be “filtered” Jan?
As long as you adhere to the commenting rules of this blog all is well.
I admit to being puzzled as to how you came to believe that, Jan; if the fetus is the biological offspring of the mother (and father), then how is he/she not the mother’s child (and the father’s child)?
Fetus aren’t children. Children breathe. I’d also like to add that toys don’t cry. Who dreams up these ridiculous lies?
“Fetus aren’t children. Children breathe.”
FACT: Both fetuses and children are small humans.
Sorry about your abortion, Jan.
That’s just weird.
Who buys food for twelve when there are only six people for dinner?
Who goes out and buys toys for children who don’t exist?
Where are all these toys which have been bought and wrapped for no-one? Perhaps they could be given to the needy.
I have a hard time believing the toys would be crying in Toronto – I mean, the Maple Leafs are in playoff position right now.
“Both fetuses and children are small humans.”
Your logic is flawed. Both rocks and plants are on the ground. A rock isn’t a plant and a fetus isn’t a child.
“As long as you adhere to the commenting rules of this blog all is well.”
Then why haven’t you approved my comment as it was not inflammatory.
“Sorry about your abortion, Jan”
Oh right, everybody who is pro-choice has had an abortion.
Fetus aren’t children. Children breathe. I’d also like to add that toys don’t cry. Who dreams up these ridiculous lies?
Actually, fetuses breathe as well. And have plenty of oxygen in their blood.
As to the crying toy, have you honestly never heard of anyone using anthropomorphism before as a rhetorical device or are you being obtuse on purpose?
That’s not breathing. More make-believe.
Not being obtuse at all. I happen to be a huge fan of facts over lies and mindless shaming of people who have done nothing wrong.
Embryos don’t play with toys and they don’t breathe. Fetus aren’t children.
Speaking of toys, I donate some to Toys For Tots every Christmas and- oh wait, I’m prolife so that. means I’m not supposed to care about needy children who are already born, am I? lol
I participate in a ‘toy run’ every november JillR. despite that fact that I am a monster who believes every fetus must be aborted and that sex must never be for procreation. lol
Okay, so inhaling and exhaling aren’t breathing. Even though they are documented processes that occur in the womb. And having oxygen in the blood (which, by the way, is the point of breathing in the first place), is totally dismissable. Even though that is documented and occurs in the womb.
You are, apparently, only a fan of those facts you choose to like.
“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” – Sherlock Holmes, A Scandal In Bohemia
Either you deal with all the facts, even those which are inconvenient to your views, or you are not dealing in facts at all. You have chosen the second, which is unfortunate.
Are you kidding Alice?
Do you put your head under water in the bath and inhale and exhale?
Ah, another pro-choicer that likes to redefine words. Please note definition number 4 below.
child
noun, plural chil·dren.
1. a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl.
2. a son or daughter.
3. a baby or infant.
4. a human fetus.
Don’t you folks ever tire of this?
Somebody who is pro-life is going to believe that what is in the womb, no matter how small, is a baby and thus a person. Somebody who is pro-choice is going to believe that what is in the womb (at least through part of the development) is not a baby, and thus not a person.
Do any of you in this debate believe if you elegantly explain it well enough, the other person is simply going to say “oh, you know what? I’ve never thought of it that way!?!”.
@Reality: Did you honestly just equate amniotic fluid to water? And used that comparison to accuse me of being ridiculous?
*rereads*
Yup, you did. I am impressed. This is a new low for you.
Ex-GOP, are you suggesting that pro-choicers never change their minds and become pro-lifers? Because I know that’s not true. I used to be pro-choice.
I’m speaking specifically in regards to those people in this debate and on this board, who argue with each other post after post, day after day, week after week, and year after year.
Ex-GOP, I agree that it’s often a fruitless argument, people standing on opposite sides of the argument, one yelling “is a baby” while another yells “is not a baby.” Who ever gets anywhere that way?
However, I do disagree with you on one point – not everybody that thinks abortion is wrong will necessarily say that the unborn are “children” or “babies,” and not everybody that thinks they’re not will be for legal abortion.
Ex-GOP: I have a hard time believing the toys would be crying in Toronto – I mean, the Maple Leafs are in playoff position right now.
:) ;) :)
Guns don’t kill people.
People kill people.
And toys might do so too, if then have a gun.
Hmm. My guess is that those that post on this blog are pretty firmly entrenched in their opinions on abortion. It’s those that are reading and not posting that I think are most likely to be affected by the information they find here.
Really Alice?
My point was that fetuses do not inhale and exhale to obtain oxygen – because they are in amniotic fluid. At later stages of development they practice ‘breathing’ to prepare the lungs for drawing breath in the outside world to obtain oxygen no longer supplied by the cord. During that practice they take in small amounts of fluid, not oxygen.
The bathwater analogy was an attempt to help you see the point.
Now, do you still claim that fetuses ‘breathe’, as in inhale and exhale to obtain oxygen?
How can the fetus smoke if it doesn’t get air?
It may sound surprising to think of the fetus with a lit cigarette, and well, okay, perhaps it is a bit far-fetched. But didn’t Bill Cosby say they write their names on the walls in the womb?
Reality, who said that anyone thought you said that every “fetus” should be aborted? And as for the toy run example,that makes no sense And did ALL needy children result from unplanned pregnancies which us mean, horrible pro-lifers insist not be “terminated?”
Had this fundraiser been something for an org. such as
Planned Parenthood, which apparently does provide prenatal care, your example would make sense to me in a way*, but your comparison here does not.
*as much as I hate to use that as an example, they do do some prenatal care, but it isn’t their focus. You can go to their own Annual report to see this.
P.S. Has anyone noticed that when people are trying to hide something or make it sound better at least to them, their descriptions often get longer and/or fancier? When I told people my terminally ill cat was “put to sleep” everyone knew I meant the doctor ended her life, for example. It was just too hard and still is, to think of or use that word for me and most other people.
Also, most people who use the word “fetus,” as well as those who don’t, are not fluent in Latin, and don’t use National Spelling Bee words in their usual conversation.(OK, that would probably be an opening-round regional NSB word, but still)
I mean use a word such as “killed” to describe my cat’s death.
“And as for the toy run example,that makes no sense” – how does that make no sense? I was saying that I donated toys to the needy too.
I don’t mean to be intentionally rude but the rest of your comment I find somewhat confused.
An epic fail for trolls here. Breathing is a bell-weather point for humanity? All living cells “respirate” That’s breath, for those of you in the Land of Denial.
Can we now add scuba divers to the acceptable “hit list”?
That wasn’t quite the point of the argument Hans. Alice appeared to think that fetuses inhale and exhale to take in oxygen, which is not the case.
Respiration encompasses more than just ‘breathing’.
Scuba divers inhale and exhale.
Now let’s see how you defend that fetus play with toys and that toys cry.
Women are people with full rights. Fetus are not people. Even if they were, what person has a right to occupy another person’s body against their will?
All of your antichoice arguments in favor of removing women’s right to bodily autonomy are logically unsound & have been disproved over and over.
BTW if the mod is going to filter my comment about reli gion killing real people then the inflammatory “Sorry about your abortion” comment should be removed.
Respiration is merely the exchange of gases across cell walls. Inhalation is just doing so on a larger scale.A human fetus, scuba diver, space-walking astronaut, or patient on artificial respiration are all alive.
i just saw a cartoon add where 2 cats are talking in a shelter asking each other ” when do you think we will be adopted”? of course cartoons dont TALK. duh! it was an add for animal shelters. why would cats want to be adopted? im sorry but you pro abotion people want one thing and it isnt choice. nope its death. this add makes me think about the 90 million children killed in abortion who will never be held touched or loved. and jan you silly fool….who told you that a fetus wasnt a baby? doctors told me both while pregnant. lets listen to the babys heartbeat or lets listen to the fetal heartbeat. non living things dont have heartbeats.
That wasn’t quite the point of the argument Hans. Alice appeared to think that fetuses inhale and exhale to take in oxygen, which is not the case.
Except that I don’t think that at all, which you would know if you had actually read my first and second posts thoughtfully. And believe me, I understood all your points. None of them are terribly complex. You have utterly failed to comprehend mine. Which also isn’t complex, but here it is again for you.
Jan is attempting to draw some clear line of distinction between born and unborn on the basis of breathing. Except that there isn’t one. If her argument goes to the action of breathing, inhaling and exhaling, that is something the unborn do in the womb, so any differentiation on those grounds fails. If her argument is applied to the object of breathing, oxygenating the tissues of the body, that is something the unborn accomplish through other means, so any differentiation on these grounds fails. This “argument” is a total non-starter. It is uncompelling. And it demonstrates a lack of awareness, or comprehension, or both, of prenatal biology.
Also, as a certified SCUBA diver, should I be worried? ;)
ha like i would really believe jan over an MD and an obgyn.
” I suppose you also think a child is just occupying her mother’s house ”
More flawed logic and shaming. A fetus is not a child and a woman is not a house.
jan the only one shaming you is you. have a nice day.
Ok kids. Mommy has some Christmas shopping to do so she can’t babysit the blog all day.
Let’s play nice and use our big boy and big girl words.
Seriously, I’ve been nothing but polite and I get not only filtered but called “troll” “evil” “heartless” and receive death threats. I think there may be a little bit of bias going on. What a surprise… NOT. I predicted it in my first comment.
Jan,
You do have to expect some disagreement of your views on a prolife blog, right?? :)
Do you have any sources to cite to back up your assertions that a fetus is not a child?
The burden of proof is on you to prove that.
Did you notice that I deleted the prolifer comments as well, Jan?
If you are only here to incite then you are considered a troll. It is internet speak for someone that is only here to incite. If you aren’t that is a welcome change.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: “That was an excellent troll you posted”.
While the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling describing intentionally provocative actions and harassment outside of an online context.
We may have differing definitions of the word “polite.”
hi carla *waves* okay. im cool but jan you got a death threat? report that!!!!
::waves to Heather::
I’m sure this will be filtered, too.
My point has been made and your policy is clear: Come to this forum and express a differing opinion and get filtered, accused, shamed, called names and threatened. Great open discussion.
“attack ideas, not persons” I guess only applies when YOU decide it does.
Again, I’m not surprised and predicted it when I first got here. Thanks for proving my point for me.
Jan, I have had 9 pregnancies, 7 births, and all of those beings were human. From the moment of conception. Forget respiration – we have the technology now to understand DNA. And from the moment those children were conceived, they had unique, unrepeatable DNA. They were then exactly who they are now, and the ones I lost are no less my children than the others who are with me.
My first was conceived when I was unmarried, and 17 years old. Many suggested I abort. Thank God I didn’t. My oldest is now almost 17 and a junior in high school. He is unique, and unrepeatable, and my life would be much poorer were he not here.
Abortion hurts women. Abortion kills their children. That’s why I’m pro-life.
God bless you, Jan. I hope you have a Merry Christmas surrounded by those you love.
Susan, I’m glad that you were able to make that CHOICE. However, your pleasant experience is not everyone’s reality.
Forced abortion is just as bad as forced birth. Not everyone wants children, not everyone is mentally or physically able to go through pregnancy and birth.
You seem like a compassionate person. Please extend that compassion to people who are facing unplanned or unwanted pregnancies.
By the way, I don’t celebrate Christmas, (again, your experience isn’t everyone’s reality) but thank you for your kind wishes. I hope your winter holiday season is satisfactory, as well.
“Somebody who is pro-life is going to believe that what is in the womb, no matter how small, is a baby and thus a person.”
I don’t believe the cyst in my womb is a baby and thus a person. However, I do know that my four children were humans while they were living in my womb. I didn’t care whether you called them kids, fetuses, babies, children, persons, offspring or little humans while they were living in my womb as long as you didn’t try to hurt or kill them!
People don’t usually asked me how many offspring or biological humans I have. They ask how many children I have. Is it okay to include my 21 year old? Technically, he is no longer a child but an adult. Oh well, he will always be my baby even if some humans want to argue about language used.
“mindless shaming of people who have done nothing wrong.”
Aborting your fetus was wrong.
I agree with Heather. Any death threats should be reported. Death threats are wrong as well.
Don’t worry, Jan. I will grow on you. Like a fungus (I’m not really a fungus but rather am a real, live human just like our unborn).
Merry Christmas!
Oops, Jan. Your last comment didn’t appear until mine posted. I see you don’t celebrate Christmas and respect that you choose not to. I get so caught up in the Joy my Savior gives me at this time of year that I want to share it.
I want to wish you a Merry Winter Holiday Season. Peace, Love and Joy be with you and yours.
I don’t think “filtered” is the word you are looking for Jan, but notice how your comment is staying up just the way you worded it?
Methinks you just want to “stir it up” a bit here and are looking to argue.
No worries. Soon you will just be ignored like all of the others that have come and gone before you.
Have you met Duck yet?
Jan – it was tough, really tough. But it was a choice that both my child and I can live with. And that’s important.
Encouraging women to choose to kill their own children is not compassionate or humane. It is twisted. And wrong. Sometimes even genocidal. Many women have been hurt by abortion. Those who have are not alone.
And I do wish you a Merry Christmas, even if you don’t celebrate it.
“But it was a choice that both my child and I can live with”
Awesome sentence, Susan! This should be a prolife bumper sticker (or maybe it is already?).
LIFE — A choice both my child and I can live with.
Susan, I’m glad that you were able to make that CHOICE.
Jan, I don’t like that I had to CHOOSE not to kill my daughter instead of her life being protected by law regardless of how I felt about the matter or how old she was. It was disrespectful of her as a gestating human being who was, is, and always will be my biological child.
You know what really forces birth? Abortion. It forces birth prematurely to deliver a dead child (a gestating human being is ALWAYS the biological child of the pregnant woman in question, unless we’re talking about a surrogate). Pro-Lifers are advocating that birth NOT be forced (unless such an action is necessary to save lives) but instead allowed to continue until it happens naturally on its own to deliver a healthy and living human being.
Not everyone wants children, not everyone is mentally or physically able to go through pregnancy and birth.
If you’re pregnant, you’re GONNA go through birth (with a very, VERY slim number of exceptions). It’s either going to be the birth of a living child, or the birth of a dead one if you pay for an abortion (once again, with a VERY few exceptions. Please look up Gianna Jessen on YouTube. We’re STILL waiting on word back from the peanut gallery of what they think about her). If you’re pregnant, if you’re in the position to seek an abortion, you already HAVE a child, regardless of whether or not you want(ed) one. If a man finds out he fathered a child 5 years ago, he can’t just find the kid, say, “I didn’t WANT you!” and kill the child legally, can he? Abortion shouldn’t be legal behavior, either. Some people need help to get through pregnancy and birth. That’s not an excuse to kill the child.
Let’s extend some compassion to gestating human beings. They need it, because they’re vulnerable, weak, and can’t speak for themselves.
Jan: “Embryos don’t play with toys and they don’t breathe. Fetus aren’t children.”
Sorry, Jan. People here like to stick with the scientific definition of things. And we know that, scientifically, a human being’s life begins at fertilization.
Doug: “But didn’t Bill Cosby say they write their names on the walls in the womb?”
“Hey, get them Brussels sprouts outta here…”
“People here like to stick with the scientific definition of things.”
Like: “Toys cry” and get lonely? What is the “scientific definition” of that?
Like “God bless you”? Where did you get that “science”?
If your silly ideas didn’t kill real people you would be hilarious.
You like to stick you head in the sand and think that every one likes the things you like and feel the way you feel. Not everyone does.
Well you certainly are a breath of “polite” fresh air, eh Jan??
We aren’t talking about the toys crying or the God bless yous though are we?
Life begins at conception. Only those that support and promote the killing of innocent preborn human beings disagree.
Please link to the scientific facts you have that show when life begins. Thank you.
“We aren’t talking about the toys crying”
Please consult the photo at the top of this post. You consistently prove you aren’t interested in facts.
Try to focus, Jan.
So far you have consistently proven that you are playing the little word games that proaborts are so very fond of.
When does life begin?
Fact – at conception, a new being is created with human DNA that is unique, and different from his or her parents.
Unfortunately, Jan, I know there are plenty of people who think that killing unborn children is a necessary evil in our society. There are even some who think it is a “right.” There are abusers who use abortion to cover up their crimes.
In most circles, including this one, God bless you is not considered impolite.
Keep searching, Jan, you will find what you are looking for.
@Jan 2:07 PM: Now you’re just randomly combining abortion-apology talking points in the hopes that you will produce something that makes sense. We aren’t talking about toys crying because nobody in the world believes there’s a toy soldier out there crying because he was sent to the Island of Misfit Toys as a result of abortion.
Honestly, do you hate The Lord of the Rings, as well? After all “gold rings aren’t really evil” so that series must be out to make everyone believe that they actually are and trick us into thinking hobbits are actual beings! There’s no point about truly dangerous evil seeming like a little, beautiful thing that is both powerful and seductive or anything like that. Certainly no messages about the value of friendship. And most definitely nothing at all symbolic about the fact that the most unpowerful characters are the ones with the greatest resistance to the Ring. The world has no symbolism in it, all stories are meant word-for-word the way they’re written, and everything you ever read anywhere is intended 100% literally. Every novel ever is “lies.”
If I seriously believed you were taking this tack for any reason but to stir up discussion, then you would be either a complete idiot or a total Scrooge.
Not done reading comments but you pro-abortion folks are WRONG as always about biology.
Fetuses DO in fact inhale and exhale. In fact my son is doing it daily in my womb right now. They inhale and exhale the amniotic fluid as this helps their lungs gain the strength needed for breathing at birth. And my son like EVERY OTHER HUMAN needs oxygen to survive. He gets all the oxygen he needs to live from me which passes the placenta and enters his body at his umbilical cord. His blood still takes the oxygen it needs and passes the waste back out through the umbilical cord.
So, is he then human because he IS inhaling/exhaling and IS using oxygen?
Okay back to reading comments now….
What I meant was I used an example of how I helped already born children, and then “Reality” gave an example of also helping already born children, remember, the ones WE supposedly do not care about?
If “Reality” had written of how they, for example, did something to help poor pregnant women (even ones pregnant with “wanted” babies) it would have made more sense to me.
Okay, read the rest of the comments. See the other pro-lifers already hit on my point above.
Jan, women only have “full rights” and fetuses do not because some men in robes decided as such. They used to say the same about black folks. Your point is what then???? We are working to make sure ALL human beings have the right to live, born women, unborn women and even little boys like my son who is in the fetal stage of his life right now.
Unborn humans are not “occupying” someone else’s body. They are EXACTLY where they are supposed to be. The uterus is MEANT for housing the human fetus as he/she develops. And that fetus is there because of an action that the woman took (sex). It isn’t like the unborn baby secretly breaks into her home in the dead of night and crawls up into her uterus. Good grief. You know this. So stop acting like its the case.
Humans only reproduce after their own kind Jan. We do not reproduce and give birth to cats, dogs, or gerbils. The human fetus is just that. A human in the fetal stage of development. There are many stages of development in the human being’s life. Embryo/fetus is just a stage. It doesn’t change the nature of the being we’re discussing. The fetus is indeed human and is indeed alive.
Because I have reproduced the male fetus in my womb right now is my child. And following the laws of science I am his mother.
“Please consult the photo at the top of this post.”
Maybe you would be okay with a billboard of an aborted human since crying soldiers offend you so?
Now I’m getting threats of being sent “unborn porn”.
I’m sure this will get filtered and the threatening comment removed.
That’s enough you all can stop now. *Yawn*
“unborn porn”
You or some of your ilk might be so inclined to use those horrific pictures as masturbatory aides-ghoulish much?-but that is not the purpose of them when Pro-Lifers show such illustrations. They depict the nature of gestating human beings, indicating that they are just that, and not only human beings but very young children.
Did you get the chance to look up Gianna Jessen? Please tell me how abortion saved her life, Jan. Thanks!
Ok. are you pro-i dont wanna use birthcontrol, so i murder my baby in a state of denial, women arent baby making machines, and only I IIIIIIII deserve a choice between me and the child ive conceived or my girlfried conceived and dont wanna b responsible for nit wits ever going to be able to explain how a person is not a person but then is a person suddenly? at which exact moment? when do they become a cherished person? when does their soul appear?? ive had an abortion and so, after living with the guilt of it. I figured out that guilt came from committing murder. so get over your selfishness!!
“Fetuses DO in fact inhale and exhale…..They inhale and exhale the amniotic fluid as this helps their lungs gain the strength needed for breathing at birth…..He gets all the oxygen he needs to live from me which passes the placenta and enters his body at his umbilical cord. His blood still takes the oxygen it needs and passes the waste back out through the umbilical cord.” – which is what I said.
“If “Reality” had written of how they, for example, did something to help poor pregnant women (even ones pregnant with “wanted” babies)” – I have done so.
You know, this billboard would have been more useful and relevant if it had said ‘Some children will have fewer toys to play with this year’. Actually it would have been better if the money had been spent remedying that situation instead.
Jan, could you please direct me to the post where someone threatened to send you “unborn porn?” I’m not seeing it here. I’ll be happy to delete any threatening comments, because those aren’t allowed here.
I see Praxedes acting you if you’d be ok with a billboard of an aborted human. I don’t see anyone threatening anything. Is this what you’re referring to? Seems like you’re now inventing “threats” against yourself.
Jan, if you’re so threatened and we’re so terribly scary, you’re welcome to take your unfounded claims and rude behavior back to wherever it is you came from. Have a nice day. And I mean “have a nice day” in a non-threatening way, naturally.
How about:
‘Most children have plenty of toys to play with but can never play with their aborted siblings, classmates, and neighbors’
Aborted children don’t need toys, Reality. I can keep explaining it to you, but I can never understand it for you.
Yeah, Kel. I didn’t understand Jan’s porn comment either (a good thing, I’m sure).
I thought something had been posted and then deleted that I had not seen. If not, her comment is disturbing to say the least.
“Aborted children don’t need toys, Reality. I can keep explaining it to you, but I can never understand it for you” – that sounds a lot like “Who goes out and buys toys for children who don’t exist?…Where are all these toys which have been bought and wrapped for no-one?” – which is what I said earlier on this thread. Yet there’s the billboard, claiming there are toys waiting for children which don’t exist.
Yup. They don’t exist because their mom’s paid to have them killed.
Abortion wouldn’t exist if the unborn didn’t exist.
I can never understand it for you, Reality. Sorry. Keep trying though.
“They don’t exist because their mom’s paid to have them killed.” – neither do the toys, which makes the billboard rather pointless.
“Abortion wouldn’t exist if the unborn didn’t exist” – ah, a glimmer of understanding! Yes, most unborns are wanted, some aren’t – hence abortion. Always was, always will be.
There’s a lot it appears you don’t want to understand.
What’s to understand?
I understand there are many arrogant people in this world that have so much hate in their hearts that they make themselves the decider of what humans should live and what humans should die.
Always has been, always will be. Doesn’t make it right and doesn’t mean those among us who are rational, thinking, caring humans shouldn’t fight against the darkness, hatred and killing.
Most of us know about the Hitlers and Stalins. And now we know about the Realitys , the CCs and the Jans too.
Really very simple to understand.
What I find arrogant is those who deign to tell others how they must live according to what they assume is the only ‘right path’.
So you really think that women who choose abortion have ‘so much hate in their hearts’ do you?
And all those who support womens right to choose have ‘so much hate in their hearts’ too?
‘Darkness, hatred and killing’ – please, do shout this from the rooftops, demonstrate yet again why your cause cannot justify itself and will not succeed.
Yeah yeah, and the stalin and hitler bit too, even better.
What I see from some people here reminds me of something that was said about North Korea – ‘that which isn’t mandatory, is forbidden’.
Wrong. They exist. They’ve been killed and their little bodies thrown away or incinerated, but they exist. Some unborns are unwanted *by their biological parents, AND they are given a chance to live with new parents who want them and end up living very meaningful, happy lives-hence adoption.
We’re fighting for more kids like the latter, less like the former. I’m sure some slave owners said “Always was, always will be.”
What I find arrogant is those who deign to tell others how they must live
That’s funny. What I find arrogant is those who deign to tell others how they must DIE-for “choice”, to give women the illusion they are free, to free men from responsibilities to those women, or just because it’s not a good time right now. That is what I find arrogant.
They may exist in an ethereal sense to certain people but thats all.
Womens’ freedom is only an illusion when the tentacles of patriarchy insinuate themselves into the social dimension.
Reality, if unborn children don’t exist then why do women need abortions? The kid doesn’t exist! There can be no threat of unwanted parenthood from a non-existent child!
I didn’t say unborn fetuses don’t exist, what are you on? I said that terminated fetuses don’t exist apart from in an ethereal sense to certain people.
Statement – “They exist. They’ve been killed and their little bodies thrown away or incinerated, but they exist.”
Response – “They may exist in an ethereal sense to certain people but thats all.”
I’m sorry, Reality, but I’ve forgotten…are you a man, or a woman?
Because I’ll be DAMNED if I’m going to sit here and be lectured by a MAN about how killing my child(ren) in utero makes me “free”…How I apparently am a “tentacle of the patriarchy” (lmfao…really? Lay off the Lovecraft, dude), and that the want to have seen my DAUGHTER protected in utero from the MAN who wanted me to kill HER after using me for sex makes me anti-woman.
HA.
No xalisae, what makes you ‘free’ is your ability to make a choice, in all manner of things.
If you don’t feel that aborting an unplanned or unwanted child makes you free, that’s fine. Your choice. But others do.
And there is absolutely no justifiable reason why your position on the matter should impinge on theirs.
If you wish to impose on the rights and freedoms of women then yes, you are a tentacle of the patriarchy.
Wanting to protect your fetus from some reprehensible clown who wanted you to abort doesn’t make you ‘anti-woman’.
Wishing unwanted gestation and birth on others does though.
Prax @5:48: Yours is an awesome quote, too. I love it. Very billboard-worthy.
3 reasons why abortions isn’t good.
1. it is bad for health.
2. you’re committing murder.
3. you’re wasting landfills -.-
Hm, I wonder if we’ll end up eating christmas lunch in the nude again this year.
Merry christmas to all!
Gee whilickers Reality. What am I on? I must be so gosh darned stupid. Stupid pregnant woman, right?
You said they don’t exist. Several comments here by the pro-aborts said that unborn humans are not children. And then you made some comment about how they don’t exist. My comment stands… maybe not in response to your comment which makes NO SENSE to me anyhow (ethereal sense? What the HECK is your point?) but my comment stands in general to all you pro-aborts who keep claiming fetuses are not children. And if aborted they are children that didn’t exist.
So then why the need for an abortion to escape unwanted parenthood?
“Tentacle of the patriarchy?” This phrase. Is the best phrase.
*dies of laughter*
“Hm, I wonder if we’ll end up eating christmas lunch in the nude again this year.”
That’s not you kissing your teen on the pep rally video, is it Reality?
You’re either on something — or should be.
Please check out the Prolife free movie 180: 180movie.com. Thank you for taking a stand on Abortion. To God Be the Glory!
Praying for your healing. Xalisae. I know a close friend who went through the same pain and frustration that you are going through now. I’ll be praying for you.
I’m sure this will be filtered, too.
My point has been made and your policy is clear: Come to this forum and express a differing opinion and get filtered, accused, shamed, called names and threatened. Great open discussion.
“attack ideas, not persons” I guess only applies when YOU decide it does.
Again, I’m not surprised and predicted it when I first got here. Thanks for proving my point for me.
Jan, I’m pro-choice and have been arguing abortion for 15 years, off and on. Jill’s site is good. Yeah, nothing will be “perfect” but there are many places where anything but “the party line” gets deleted.
“A spirited debate” is what Jill once said she wants, and this place does pretty darn well with it.
Doug
Once again, my head is spinning. We pro-lifers think a toy soldier is real. It shouldn’t be there in the first place for a “non-existent child”. Ever heard of being well-stocked?
And then Reality lets it slip that we’re talking about “aborting an unplanned or unwanted CHILD”.
Jan, I hope someday you will realize that a human fetus IS real, which you denied. Hopefully, unlike Reality, when you do, you will care.
Jan,
I want to apologize to you. You see, your argument that a human fetus wan’t a human being because he/she (oops) doesn’t inhale and exhale air seemed like such a lame, usophisticated argument that I assumed you were the teen-age child of hippie parents who was new to this debate.
I rather snarkily said that “we eat trolls like you for breakfast” and you took that as a “death threat” to “kill and eat you”.
I see now that you’re younger than I thought. Please have your parents explain “hyperbole” to you. That will explain the crying toy soldier too.
I want to assure you that I only eat Cheerios for breakfast. :)
Let the back pedaling and apologists begin…
Toys that cry, fetus that breathe and play with toys, name calling, straw men, ad hominem attacks on my age and mentality, and family, denial of the personhood of women and promises to ignore me until I go away are never going to be factual arguments in favor of removing women’s basic human rights.
Thanks again for proving my point.
Stop ridiculing baby girls for not breathing like you, for being as unreal as toy soldiers, for not having your great and age and mental acuity, for having family members who might not want to see them dead, and denying their personhood.
Then we’ll see if you have any point left.
haha yeah jan is playing the victim yet she was the one who came here with a chip on her shoulder. anytime the things you type dont hold weight you complain. we have a different POV ! judge judy says the “i eat people like you for breakfast” line often on her show. lmao thats a death threat? ha! im sure paramount would have been sued by now;)
reality is a man. real men are pro life and would love a woman through a difficult crisis pregnancy. that doesnt mean sitting at the clinic and waiting for the abortion to be performed. that doesnt mean a drop off at the clinic and coming back after the murder. i have seen men pull up and drop their ladies off. wow! however lets remember that God is a loving God and abortion can be forgiven. but if you want to be forgiven you have got to ask.
No xalisae, what makes you ‘free’ is your ability to make a choice, in all manner of things.
Then I guess I’m not really free, since I can’t choose legally to drive drunk, stomp a stray dog to death, or celebrate 4th of July with a lit sparkler while I fill up my gas tank. OH WOE IS ME!!! REALITY, HELP ME REMOVE THESE SHACKLES OF OPPRESSION SO I CAN BE A “REAL WOMAN” AND NOT PART OF THE PATRIARCHY…LIKE YOU! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
If you don’t feel that aborting an unplanned or unwanted child makes you free, that’s fine. Your choice. But others do.
And there is absolutely no justifiable reason why your position on the matter should impinge on theirs.
I’m sure some people think they’re not really free unless they can legally stomp a stray dog to death if they feel like it, light off fireworks wherever they like, or drive drunk. Being free, however, comes with responsibilities, I’m afraid. It comes with responsibilities to other human beings you encounter in your life. In the case of parenting (encompassing abortion as well as obligations which exist to born children whose parents have custody of them by default), those obligations are to your child, regardless of where they are or how old they are. You have to give them everything they need and prevent them from meeting harm, or else, because you have a SPECIAL obligation to them, because you created them and caused them to be. Finding a way to skirt this obligation doesn’t make you free. It makes you a low-life who needs to be brought to justice who has blood on their hands. That brings our entire gender down to the level of hamsters who can’t deal with a litter they just had and eat them. I know you might not think so, but I think women are quite a bit better than hamsters, you misogynist.
If you wish to impose on the rights and freedoms of women then yes, you are a tentacle of the patriarchy.
If you think women should just go around giving away sex freely like an animal, and then kill the resulting offspring created like an animal, you think women are no better than animals. Get your tentacles off my children, you Cthulhu of the patriarchy!
Wanting to protect your fetus from some reprehensible clown who wanted you to abort doesn’t make you ‘anti-woman’.
Wishing unwanted gestation and birth on others does though.
No, having aborted her would’ve made me “anti-woman”, by every imaginable definition of the term. Trying to make sure that every fetus in her position is given the chance to live they deserve rather than being killed in the womb makes me “Pro-Human-Being”. Knowing that WE WOMEN are strong enough not to need to lower ourselves to the level of animals because of an accidental pregnancy makes me Pro-Woman.
Hey Jan!
Did you get the chance to look up Gianna Jessen yet? Please tell me how abortion saved her life. THANKS!
I never knew that pictures of unborn babies are considered “porn”.
That’s an entirely new facet of the proabort world to me!
Then again, not so surprising. Just another tactic to deny the humanity of a group of people, so they can be killed at will.
Alice you rock, honey!
yep they say it. fetus porn. just like that nutty jewish abortionist says “fetus fetish” pro lifers have a fetus fetish. they are a sick bunch. here is the problem. pro choicers believe that pro lifers are tolerant and we will take their abuse. i cant speak for all pro lifers but im not like that. we have been too tolerant much too long and now we have 90 million aborted babies in america. thats why jan and mango and duck thought they would come here and try to be “cute” fully expecting peace love and acceptance of abortions or their positions on them. when they were questioned it became clear that they can dish it out but cant take it.
if you want to heal from your abortion then i support you 100%. its your salvation. not everyone will make it though and with this in mind im not wasting time on everyone. remember even God instructed you to turn from your wicked ways or he will not hear you. stick around and learn or continue your wicked path. one woman here even stated that an abortion was just “crotch goop” oy!
“Get your tentacles off my children, you Cthulhu of the patriarchy!
Stay away from mine, too! Or I’ll hide Hans’ Cheerios and after a couple days he gets very hungry for Cthulhu burgers.
(I want to assure Jan that I really don’t know Hans outside of Jill’s so her paranoia doesn’t flare up again.)
X…. love your reply to Reality. If i could have hit like 80 times I would have. I also feel the oppression of not being able to stomp stray animals to death. We really need to get the Supreme Court to overturn that. Only killing defenseless living things makes women free you know.
Jan, you have not yet argued ANYTHING. You just have come here whining and complaining like a child. Prove a point! You can’t spew pro-abortion bumper sticker slogans and expect any kind of intelligent dialogue. No one here is against rights for women. Heck, the majority of us here ARE women. I don’t want to have less rights, trust me. I don’t think killing your children should be a right. And you have not yet addressed WHAT the fetus is if not a living human being. Scientists say the fetus is a living human being. How do you argue against that Jan? Whats your defense of abortion if the fetus is indeed human and living?
The fact that pro-abortion types would call pictures of unborn babies “fetus porn” just says it all. Everything is sexualized and perverted to them. EVERYTHING. Nothing is innocent and sacred. Cause if you can champion tearing arms and legs off unborn boys and girls what can possibly be sacred to you? I guess when I had my ultrasound in early November and saw that my fetus was a little baby boy I was making porn? Who knew?
lisa ( upstream) may God heal your heart from your abortion. admitting you were wrong shows me you are on the right path sweetie;)
i wonder when doctors measure the growth of baby and check the heartbeat is that fetus porn too. hard or soft core?
reality wants to eat in the nude? i think i just threw up in my mouth. you are disgusting.
maybe toys dont cry but i was reading about a woman who wrote of her daughters abortion at the late george tillers clinic. the girl was having a late term and heard her son make an agonizing cry. the blood of the unborn cry out for justice.
Anecdotes are not facts. Fetus are not children.
a fetus is a child in utero
Jan, how old are you? Like 2?
“Fetuses are not children! I said so! I said so! I said so!”
Okay. Prove it.
I’m pregnant hon. I think I know what I carry in my womb more than you do. Saw my son on ultrasound. Has all the same parts as me… well, except for the penis. Is alive. Beating heart. Brain waves. Moving, kicking. Completely human and alive. I am his mother. He is my child. You may call him “fetus” but he is still human and alive. When he is a newborn he will still be my child. When he is a toddler he will still be my child. When he is a teenager he will still be my child. In fact, when he is middle-aged he will STILL BE MY CHILD. He will constantly grow and develop and change. The only constant will be that he is a human being at every stage of development and that he is my child no matter his age or development.
Now PROVE your point please or else just go away. You’re tiring because you can’t argue for schizz.
i agree with sydney there jan. this is going nowhere because you are saying nothing. you wont change my mind. say something to debate or go to a pro choice blog where every other pro choicer will agree with you. did you have an abortion jan?
also jan study biology before you bring your ignorance to a blog.
“Cthulhu?” Who knew? Very good, xalisae. Tentacles of the Patriarchy, indeed. I haven’t read Lovecraft in decades, but you’ve whetted my appetite.
But not for cthulhu burgers, Praxedes. :)
We have to let up on Jan. She’s clearly an adolescent. Which is one of the technical terms for what we call colloquially a child. We wouldn’t want to be hypocritical in our concern for children.
Insulting my age or intelligence are not facts. Anecdotes are not facts. Asking me to prove a negative and every other logical fallacy you’ve provided are NOT FACTS.
You people have not presented one single factual argument and have done nothing but insult me, dismiss me, try to guess my age, education level, tell stories with no observable basis in reality, share personal anecdotes, beg me to go away, threaten to eat me, ask me personal questions about my private medical history, assume that how you feel is how everyone feels, twist my words and make funny (in your mind) jokes in lieu of facts.
This is because you have no factual arguments. You’re whole position is based on denial, shame and bronze age fairy-tales.
A fetus is NOT a child. You can deny that all you want. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy. You CAN’T deny that.
Thanks again for proving my point.
Jan says:
A fetus is NOT a child.
**********************************************
You are wrong.
Websters Dictionary – 1st definition:
child
noun, often attributive \?ch?(-?)ld\
plural chil·dren
Definition of CHILD
1a : an unborn or recently born person
Dictionary.com – 4th definition:
child
noun, plural chil·dren.
1.a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl
2.a son or daughter: All my children are married.
3.a baby or infant.
4.a human fetus.
Insulting my age or intelligence are not facts.
True, but you do seem very young and you are very bad at putting together cogent arguments.
Anecdotes are not facts.
Erm…yes, they are. Someone’s individual experiences are factual. What you’re looking for is “the plural of anecdote is not data,” which is true. How that applies to the rest of this thread, however, is something you have yet to adequately define. This will be forthcoming in future posts, we may hope.
Asking me to prove a negative and every other logical fallacy you’ve provided are NOT FACTS.
First off, your position in this argument is not the negative one. The pro-life position is that since unborn human beings are, in fact, human beings, there is no reason not to accord them human rights. Or, as you put it, a negative position. Your position is that there is such a reason, though you have yet to present a single argument as to what that reason might be. That is, you are making the assertion here; the burden of proof is on you.
Second, even if we were to reframe this argument so that you had a negative position, in this particular case the burden of proof is still on you. You have come to a group of pro-life people and want us to change our views. Simply demanding that we do so because you say we should is totally unpersuasive. You must give us at least one reason to alter our views. Ideally, you should provide several.
You people have not presented one single factual argument…
This is actually true. Only One single factual argument has taken place. The single fact claim you have made (“Fetuses don’t breathe.”) has been directly refuted in multiple ways by several people, including myself. I even gave you links. Until you either provide evidence that those refutations are erroneous (linking to a source we can all agree on as reasonably authoritative which states that fetuses do not breathe in any of the ways mentioned, for example), or you make another argument, then we’re kind of waiting on you. You wanted to come here and have your say; we’re waiting for you to say something worth responding to.
…and have done nothing but insult me, dismiss me, try to guess my age, education level…
That’s not true. We’ve also made posts in response to Doug and “Reality,” neither of whom are you–probably.
…tell stories with no observable basis in reality, share personal anecdotes…
Either call people liars in so many words or don’t say anything like this again. This half-committed implication is intellectually dishonest and far more insulting to you than to anyone else.
…beg me to go away…
Given that you running around saying the same things over and over without providing so much as philosophical support for any of them is phenomenally annoying, of course we’re begging you to go away. If you actually said something worth discussing, people wouldn’t say this. Doug’s pro-choice, he’s been around for ages, he actually makes real arguments, and I kind of like him. I think he’s dead wrong about abortion, but I would hate for him to go away.
…threaten to eat me…
…Okay. Surely you don’t actually think anyone actually wants to eat you, for breakfast or any other meal of the day. First you can’t handle anthropomorphism, and now you’re tripping over idioms? I suppose the other possibility is that English is not your first language.
…Look, if you are under 18 or English is not your first language (or third or eighth or seventieth), for Pete’s sake, say so. It would make for a much more productive dialogue. Otherwise, we’re going to keep thinking you’re deliberately derailing when you go down bunny trails like this one.
…ask me personal questions about my private medical history…
This is another one of those, if we know this, it can lead to more productive dialogue things. That said, you are of course welcome not to answer personal questions. Nobody’s going to come to your house, tie you to a chair, and force-feed you cream cheese won tons until you answer to the questioner’s satisfaction.
…assume that how you feel is how everyone feels…
Given that you are angry here, in essence, because people don’t agree that abortion should be legal, you’re pretty much the only one assuming that everyone should feel the way you do. I know not everyone respects the right to life. That’s why I think the law needs to protect it. If everyone felt the way I did, we wouldn’t need to legally protect the unborn. The very existence of the pro-life movement runs on the assumption that not everyone agrees with us.
…twist my words and make funny (in your mind) jokes in lieu of facts.
I have no idea what this refers to, and I’m only quoting it for the sake of completion.
This is because you have no factual arguments.
“Yes, a fetus does breathe. Here’s a link that talks about how. They also take in oxygen like this.” That’s a factual argument. You saying, “That doesn’t count! *foot stomp*” does not constitute a sufficient counter-argument. Either provide facts to back up your own claims or shut up.
You’re whole position is based on denial, shame…
Denial of what? Shame of who? These are called “bald assertions.” You have made these claims, but provided no support for them. Back them up. At the very least, define them more completely. Right now, they’re meaningless slogans. Worthlessly vague.
…and bronze age fairy-tales.
Ah, the “All pro-lifer’s are Catholics” line. I was wondering when that one would come out.
Would everyone here who is not a Catholic please raise your hand? *raises own hand*
A fetus is NOT a child. You can deny that all you want.
Yes, we can. Because not everyone agrees with your views on the subject and you have no right to try and force us to do so.
Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy. You CAN’T deny that.
We disagree on what that entails. Women do not have the right to kill other innocent human beings, regardless of the size, development, location, or dependency of the humans in question (note the fact that this is a negative position, by the way; you are holding the positive–that women do have that right–and must, therefore, provide evidence of same if you want your argument to be compelling).
Thanks again for proving my point.
I think you should try actually making a point before you get around to declaring it proved.
Look, make one argument for abortion. Just one. Then we can talk about that argument and move on to another one. But until you actually make an argument (of any sort) then the only point that’s been proved here is that you are not very good at constructing logical arguments.
* This is not actually true… Oh, edit function, why must you tease me so?
Alice, your 5:45 pm post certainly contradicts trolls’ claims that those who are pro-life are uneducated knuckledraggers who know nothing about philosophy or law.
Alice,
You gobbled Jan up and spit her out! You do rock! Oops, will I be accused of being threatening? LOL
Jan, women do not have bodily autonomy. Women cannot use their body to have sex for money. Women cannot use their body to ingest illegal drugs. Women cannot use their body to abuse their born children. Women cannot use their body to hit their husband. In fact I could go on and on about the things women can’t do with their bodies. Bodily autonomy is a myth. Its not a right.
I love how my pointing out that my son in my womb is human and alive is an anecdote. Funny. You have no arguments Jan. Next!
“You said they don’t exist.” – I said that aborted fetuses don’t exist as children, that’s why toys haven’t been bought for them. Which makes the billboard a bit foolish.
“That’s not you kissing your teen on the pep rally video, is it Reality?” – given that our sons live at the other end of the country and aren’t in school, hardly. Not the sort of thing the average atheist would do anyway.
“If you think women should just go around giving away sex freely like an animal, and then kill the resulting offspring created like an animal, you think women are no better than animals.” – and there we have it! Women who have abortions are sluts. No happily married woman who is in a committed relationship would ever dream of having an abortion. Typical.
“WE WOMEN are strong enough not to need to lower ourselves to the level of animals because of an accidental pregnancy” – and again! You’ve made it quite clear what you think of women who choose to terminate. They are less woman than you. Pfft!
“i think i just threw up in my mouth” – you weren’t invited. It was just the two of us, doing what we are free and legally permitted to do in our own home. Not like it would be under some sort of theocratic dictate.
“That’s not you kissing your teen on the pep rally video, is it Reality?” – given our sons live thousands of miles away and don’t attend school, hardly. Not the sort of thing that someone rational enough to be atheist would do anyway.
“If you think women should just go around giving away sex freely like an animal, and then kill the resulting offspring created like an animal, you think women are no better than animals.” – that’s more your thinking than mine. I don’t find that most women who have abortions are untethered sluts, most are average people living good lives.
“WE WOMEN are strong enough not to need to lower ourselves to the level of animals because of an accidental pregnancy” – so women who choose to terminate are….? I don’t see a glossy portrait of you when I look up woman in the dictionary.
“reality wants to eat in the nude? i think i just threw up in my mouth. you are disgusting.” – what’s your problem, you weren’t invited. What we are free and legally entitled to do in private and in our own home has nothing to do with any wished for theocratic dicates.
“I love how my pointing out that my son in my womb is human and alive is an anecdote.” You would.
Putting words in my mouth is not facts
A fetus is not a child. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy. It still amazes me every time people deny personhood to women.
“Jan, women do not have bodily autonomy. Women cannot use their body to have sex for money. Women cannot use their body to ingest illegal drugs. Women cannot use their body to abuse their born children. Women cannot use their body to hit their husband.”
More logical fallacy. Still no factual arguments.
Yes, they can x5. They may get in trouble for them but they CAN CHOOSE to do those things.
“They may get in trouble for them but they CAN CHOOSE to do those things.”
Are you serious Jan? No one can legally choose to do those things, and legality is the heart of the Roe v Wade debate. To choose those things carries the penalty of the law. Unfortunately your phrase, “get in trouble” suggests a very adolescent mind-set which becomes difficult to take seriously.
Personal, ad hominem attacks and guesses at my age are not facts.
You have no factual argument in favor of removing anyone’s right to reproductive freedom or their access to safe, timely medical care.
A fetus is not a child. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy. If one person reads this and hears the truth all your abuse will be worth it.
Peace.
@Jan: Okay. Now you’re definitely a troll. You have had ample time to reply to anyone here with an argument that amounts to something more than repeating your previous statements. Instead, you continue to believe that your one-sentence, unsupported assertions and erroneous statements somehow constitute adequate replies to the challenges your arguments have received. That being the case, this time my reply to you will be a little more your speed.
A fetus is not a child.
You are wrong.
I still haven’t seen anyone present a factual argument to which I could reply. But I see you’ve resumed calling names.
Thanks again for proving my point.
Yup. Troll. Since you clearly have nothing productive to say, this conversation is over. Bye.
That’s what people with no factual argument say. I’m still waiting for any one of you to present ONE SINGLE FACT.
Fetus are not children and women ARE people with full right to bodily autonomy.
Fact: Restricting a mother from harming her or her child’s body is not denying her personhood. It is valuing the personhood of both of them.
By the way, you misspelled your motto in your comment at 8:49. It should be “pieces”, because that’s what will be left of the mother’s heart and her child’s “bodily autonomy”
Not a fact because a fetus is not a child.
Fact: No children are harmed by abortion.
Here’s one more fact: Your little “misspelling” dig isn’t a fact, either.
Still waiting…
While we wait, consider this: Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy and even if a fetus WAS a person it wouldn’t have a right to occupy anyone’s body against their will.
Now you may respond with an anecdote, an insult and (optional) a logical fallacy…
When you say “heart” I think you mean “soul” the existence of which you also have no proof. Yet another baseless anecdote.
Fetus aren’t children. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy. There really isn’t anything to debate which you prove every time you reply with an insult, anecdote, or logical fallacy.
Thank you for continuing to prove my point.
Plenty of people who are seeking the truth will see this and realize how ridiculous your “arguments” are.
You really ought to talk to someone about this deep-seated need to have someone “prove your point”.
Understandable, since you have yet to do so.
I said that aborted fetuses don’t exist as children, that’s why toys haven’t been bought for them.
No, they still exist, and exist as children. They just didn’t have parents who loved them enough not to kill them, and if they didn’t even love them enough to let them continue living, I think it’s not surprising they also did not display the love and consideration required to get those children any toys.
– and there we have it! Women who have abortions are sluts. No happily married woman who is in a committed relationship would ever dream of having an abortion. Typical.
Umm…no? Women can go around like an animal in heat just like men can act animalistic in their pursuit of sex as well. And, those men and women might even be married! To each other! I know, I was married to a man who exhibited such behaviors. I’m a better person for having ditched him, frankly. I’ve evolved with the dissolving of our marriage, you might say. Relations with my fiance are far more civilized, and ohmigosh-we’re not even married yet!
If I was ever at a point in my life at which I decided that having sex was paramount, and that the life of any child of mine created by that act was secondary to my pursuit of that physical gratification and their life was disposable as a consequence-yeah-THAT would reduce me to the level of an animal. And that would be if I was male, female, having intercourse with my spouse one time in a monogamous relationship of 10 years for the first time for both of us in 6 months, or with a steady flow of multiple strangers every night over the course of a week.
Once again: not anti-woman, but PRO-HUMAN BEING. We are better that this as human beings, and we are better than this as women.
I don’t see a glossy portrait of you when I look up woman in the dictionary.
At least if you WERE to see a glossy portrait of me by the definition of “woman” in the dictionary, it would be accurate. You? Not so much. LOL. Leave the championing of women’s rights to the women, please. This is a torch I can’t wait to pass to my daughter.
Right. There is the insult.
Waiting for you anecdote and your logical fallacy since you obviously aren’t ever going to post any factual arguments.
Fetus are not children. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy.
Yes, they can x5. They may get in trouble for them but they CAN CHOOSE to do those things.
Great! Then we don’t have a problem here! We’ll just go back to abortion being as illegal as any of those things, women can still CHOOSE to abort, but “may get in trouble” if they elect to do so, and everyone will be happy! Women will still have just as much bodily autonomy as they ever had (according to Jan, apparently), and we’ll have protection for the bodily autonomy of gestating human beings. Win-win!
Jan-
According to biology and genetics, a gestating human being is the biological child of his/her parent(s), one of whom is the pregnant woman (unless she is acting as a surrogate mother). The genetic profile indicates that not only is the gestating human being a human being, but they are the biological child of a pregnant woman, and that woman is the gestating human being’s mother (yes, genetic tests are even so precise that they can determine a mother from a father (via mitochondrial DNA). I’m more inclined to believe genetics than you.
“In mammals, pregnancy is the period of reproduction during which a female carries one or more live offspring from implantation in the uterus through gestation. It begins when a fertilized zygote implants in the female’s uterus; and ends once it leaves the uterus.” – Pregnancy, Wikipedia entry
As previously stated, genetic testing reveals that that “offspring” is the child of the pregnant female (mother) and her mate (father).
And as you stated yourself, re-criminalizing abortion does not limit the bodily autonomy of the woman, nor does it in the cases of spousal abuse, drug use, prostitution, etc.
If a fetus is not a child, what is he or she? Tumor? Nope. Broccoli? Nope. Hamster? Nope.
You do know that medical schools study pig fetuses because of similarities to a human’s (and thus human fetus’) circulatory systems. Are they just wasting their time?
And just where is this law about someone having full rights to bodily autonomy? Sounds like a religio-philosophical argument to me. I didn’t know you had it in you.
Ooh, you all are getting fancy on me now. Still no facts. Just opinion, fallacy, un-peer-reviewed studies and shaming.
“If a fetus is not a child, what is he or she? Tumor? Nope. Broccoli? Nope. Hamster?”
Nope. It’s a fetus. It’s a nice touch there, where you compare fetus to a pig. Good one.
“We’ll just go back to abortion being as illegal as any of those things, women can still CHOOSE to abort, but…”
…But the number of abortions will stay the same and the rate of maternal deaths will go back to what it was the last time prohibition of safe medical care was forced on women. Look it up.
“Sounds like a religio-philosophical argument to me. I didn’t know you had it in you.”
Shaming. Ineffectual at best.
Still waiting for that factual argument.
Fetus are NOT children, Women ARE people with full right to bodily autonomy. NO ONE can occupy a man’s body without his express permission. Why would you remove that right from a woman?
Thanks again.
Seriously. Just how old are you?
“Seriously. Just how old are you?”
Ad hominem. Get the anecdote for the trifecta…
Fetus are NOT children. Women ARE people with full right to bodily autonomy. No one denies a MAN his right to bodily autonomy because he’s had sex.
All your arguments are null because women are people. With rights.
Ooh, you all are getting fancy on me now. Still no facts. Just opinion, fallacy, un-peer-reviewed studies and shaming.
Ok, we’re “getting fancy on [you] now”, yet you characterize what I (we?) said as “opinion, fallacy, un-peer-reviewed studies and shaming”. How does that work, exactly? I didn’t realize my opinions were that “fancy”. XD
How much “peer-review” is required for a well-established, basic scientific fact? This information is readily accessible in any grade school science text. It is FAR from my opinion, and attempting to characterize it as such reveals your argument to be nothing but denial and your own opinion. I’ve given you at least one citation (which itself contains citation). That’s more than you’ve contributed to support YOUR assertion.
…But the number of abortions will stay the same and the rate of maternal deaths will go back to what it was the last time prohibition of safe medical care was forced on women. Look it up.
I have. It was less than 200 a year once antibiotics started becoming widely-used, and I can assure you with the advances in medicine available these days, it would be even lower now. How many women a year die from “safe medical care (abortion)” now that it’s legal? We’ll never know, because California and other states refuse to release their numbers, and where they ARE released, they are classified as “pregnancy-related” deaths rather than induced abortion-related deaths because the mothers were pregnant at the time of death.
Still waiting for that factual argument.
No you’re not. I brought it, twice, between mammalian growth/development and genetics. You’ve yet to address either of those points other than to say you find them unpalatable, refuse to address them, and avoid addressing them by unsubstantiated accusations of things like “fallacy”.
Please address my factual arguments.
P.S. – Did you get the chance to look up Gianna Jessen? Still waiting on learning how that “safe, legal medical care” saved HER life.
Thanks!
Fetus are NOT children, Women ARE people with full right to bodily autonomy. NO ONE can occupy a man’s body without his express permission. Why would you remove that right from a woman?
You should test this theory. I bet if a man AND a woman woke up with their child’s fist lodged in their mouth somehow, and they took the route of action of killing the children in order to facilitate removing the fists from their bodies, mother AND father would both be charged with the killing of those children.
The notion that just because the (minor) child’s body (parts) are occupying some space within the parent(s’) body (bodies) is grounds for killing the child is a fallacious assertion itself.
“How much “peer-review” is required for a well-established, basic scientific fact?”
Any would be welcome (looks around. Nope. None yet)Grade school text books? From Texas, maybe? Italy? Please cite?
“I bet if a man AND a woman woke up with their child’s fist lodged in their mouth”
More fallacy. A mouth is not a uterus, a fetus is not a toddler.
You keep going around and around but still don’t present any facts.
A fetus is NOT a child. Children breathe. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy.
Still waiting for that anecdote.
Hmm. I mentioned “pig fetuses” (I’ve forgotten the plural discussed here months back – you may well be right that it’s both singular and plural like “deer”) and you remembered it as “pig”. You’re subconcious wouldn’t be trying to tell you something, would it? If a pig fetus is a pig, what, pray tell, is a human fetus?
Please answer that simple question.
“Fetus are NOT children. Women ARE people with full right to bodily autonomy. No one denies a MAN his right to bodily autonomy because he’s had sex.”
Women are NOT men. But women and men are both HUMAN. No one denies a MAN his right to bodily autonomy because he’s had sex, therefore I am going to make it MY RIGHT to kill unborn children so men and women will be equals!! I am WOMAN! Watch me kill!
My husband and sons can pee standing up without making a mess (usually). I’m gonna start whining about this:
I should get to pee standing up, too! WAAAAAAAAAAAA!!It’s not fair! I end up with pee all over my pants when I try to pee standing up! Women, we need to make it illegal for men to pee standing up and make them sit down like the women!!! It’s NOT FAIR that they can do something we can’t!! WAAAAAAA!
Does comparing men to women make you feel better about your abortion? Does refusing to call the unborn, children, make you feel better about your abortion? Does coming here making asinine arguments make you feel better about aborting a human?
My offspring where my children when they were in my womb, out of my womb, in my home and out of my home. They were also the children of their father while they were in my womb, out of my womb, in his home and out of his home.
Fetus, Child, Boy, Girl, Man, Woman, Son, Daughter, Mom, Dad = Human
“Fact: No children are harmed by abortion.”
You are wrong again. The FACT is that almost ALL children are killed by abortion. A few children have actually survived the abortion that was intended to kill them. These children were indeed harmed.
Jan, all semantics aside, we know that the being in the womb is human, with DNA different from his or her mother and father. The word fetus means little one. So, this little one is the offspring of his or her mother.
The women who choose to end the life of the little one in their womb are irreparably harmed in several ways:
The woman has lost her little one.
She knows she has decided to end her little one’s life, and the pain from that can be very profound.
Frequently, she has been coerced by a boyfriend or spouse who is unwilling to help her raise the little one.
Sometimes, she is coerced into abortion by an abusive partner or man who has been raping her.
Check our http://www.liveaction.org for proof of abortion clinics which cover up rape, trafficking and prostitution.
The ability to kill one’s own offspring is not liberating or a “right.” If you believe that it is, you are believing a lie.
I know, Prax, those damned men. Why do I always have to wait so long to stand in line at the female restrooms and the men can just go right in and do their deed. I think I’m going to protest!!! It’s not fair that they have a penis and I have a vagina!!!!!
Any would be welcome (looks around. Nope. None yet)Grade school text books? From Texas, maybe? Italy? Please cite?
Oy. You’ll be hard-pressed to find peer-review of what has long been held as basic scientific fact.
But since you asked (again, after already being provided some evidence), here is a scholarly article written and reviewed by SEVERAL Ph.D.’s:
http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/images/wi_whitepaper_life_print.pdf
But when you see Gerard Nadal comment here, you should also understand that he is a Ph.D. of Microbiology. He is also Pro-Life. Jan…what advanced degree (or even college-level education) have YOU completed?
More fallacy. A mouth is not a uterus, a fetus is not a toddler.
More crying about “fallacy” instead of dealing with the presented analogy. More bald assertion with no supporting evidence. *yawn*
Please tell me how my analogy is a fallacy. A mouth is not a uterus, but it is a space inside the body. You keep crying about men not having to deal with children they have produced if they choose not to do so (which is itself a fallacious statement-have you never heard of child support enforcement, Jan?!), but men also do not have a uterus, Jan, so you can’t keep comparing apples and oranges and expecting to win an argument. THAT is fallacy.
A toddler also is not a teenager. A teenager is not an infant. An infant is not an adolescent. However, they are all children of their parents as stated by the Law of Biogenesis. I am a child of my parents, as are you, even though I am an adult and you are…well…hopefully very young. I am no longer a minor child, and therefore my parents no longer have any legal obligation to me, but in the fetal stage, the human child is a very young minor-younger even than the infant-and therefore dependent upon and entitled to nourishment and care from his/her parent(s). Seriously. Just ask the Utah Supreme Court. They recently determined gestating human beings to be minor children. Look it up.
Also, still waiting on you to look up Gianna Jessen. Please tell me how abortion saved her life.
Thanks again!
All of your arguments are null because a fetus is not a child.
Westchester Institute is a CHRISTIAN college. Not a reliable source because they HAVE to say that stuff due to their fear of hell.
If someone is in your MOUTH against your will you have the right to REMOVE them. The same with your uterus.
“what, pray tell, is a human fetus?
Please answer that simple question.”
Once again, a human fetus is a human fetus. It is not a child.
And also again, insulting me due to how old you wish I was is not a fact.
Gianna Jessen’s anecdote is not a factual argument in favor of removing women’s right to access safe, non-judgmental health care.
A fetus is not a child. Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy.
If one person reads this thread and sees the insults, shaming, anecdotes and Judeo-Christian myths you pass off as facts, then your abuse is worth it.
If one person reads this thread and sees how hurt, angry and bitter you are to the point of your being unable to even discuss your own abortion and if one person converts to prolife, refuses to abort or supports other women choosing life because of the negative vibes you send, then your stop here is worth it.
Thanks for showing everyone here yet another perfect example of the proabort mentality.
Do you know who benefits the most from easily available abortion? Not the woman, not her fetus – it is the man who wants her available for consequence free sex. The woman in this case bears the brunt. The guy is out a couple of hundred bucks, if he is “gallant” enough to pay for half, and the woman goes through a traumatic procedure or surgery with many potential side effects, starting at pain, and going up to death – what a great bargain, huh?
You don’t see lesbians getting abortions, now do you?
Abortion is all about men getting consequence-free sex. Why do you think Heffner has been one of its biggest supporters?
Abortion is a lie perpetuated by men who want a world where they don’t have to exercise respect or self-control.
Early, legal abortion in a clean clinic/hospital is a common medical procedure that is 10x safer than pregnancy/childbirth.
Pregnancy and childbirth are linked to disability and death. Those are facts.
I’m not going to address the rest of your Catholic school induced fantasies.
All of your arguments are null because a fetus is not a child.
This roughly translates to “nanny nanny boo boo, I can’t hear you! La la la la la!”. Please support your claim that a gestating human being is not a child with “peer-reviewed” journals or articles from qualified individuals as I have, please.
Westchester Institute is a CHRISTIAN college. Not a reliable source because they HAVE to say that stuff due to their fear of hell.
I’m sorry, are their degrees not as good as degrees from secular institutions in the same areas of expertise? Are they not allowed to become research personnel, or scientists pioneering in their field? The person who first began study of what we consider modern genetics was actually a monk. I they still taught us how to do punnet squares in our secular school. Unless you can point me to a part in the article I presented that says a single thing about hell, your objection is absolutely null and void. Apparently you missed the bit of the article I presented which stated: “This White Paper is not an exercise in
theology. Nor is it an exercise in ethics or moral reasoning. It is a scientific examination of facts which, when clearly understood, provide the subject matter upon which other forms of reasonable reflection—medical, moral, legal, political, and theological—can then be brought to bear.”
In short, you can’t go around throwing out what certain scientists have discovered on the grounds you disagree with their personal beliefs, or else we’d be throwing out A TON of factual scientific information.
So, when you get around to it, please address the scientific principles presented in the article I submitted. Thanks.
If someone is in your MOUTH against your will you have the right to REMOVE them.
If that someone is your minor child, and the effort to remove them involves harming them in any way, no, you do not. But at least we’re getting you to refer to gestating human beings as “someone” now. That’s more than I’ve been able to do with Doug, and I’ve been working on him for years.
same with your uterus.
For now, you can use deadly force to remove your child(ren) from your uterus. Eventually, though, all human beings will have equal rights, and gestating human beings will have the same rights as other children post-birth. Thanks for helping to illustrate the inherent injustice of abortion, though. Eventually, people will no longer have a legal “right” to use deadly force to remove their minor child from their uterus just as no one currently has a legal right to use deadly force to remove their minor child from their oral cavity. ^_^
Once again, a human fetus is a human fetus. It is not a child.
Once again, simple genetic testing and the law of biogenesis have proven you wrong, and you’ve not said anything to rebutt either of those. Your constant droning of “a fetus is not a child” means less than nothing in the face of scientific advancement. Also, gestating human beings have their own gender. They are a “he” or a “she”, not an “it”. I guess you have a bone to pick with genetics.
And also again, insulting me due to how old you wish I was is not a fact.
Nor is asserting your opinion over and over and over again while presenting not a shred of evidence to support yourself. Why should we care what you say, at this point?
Gianna Jessen’s anecdote is not a factual argument in favor of removing women’s right to access safe, non-judgmental health care.
Do you know what an anecdote in the context of a laboratory setting is? Research.
The FACT that Gianna Jessen was harmed by her mother’s abortion which was an attempt to take her life is an argument in favor of ending the killing of gestating human beings in the process of “safe” (how safe was it for her again?), “non-judgemental” (you should read Lime 5. A lot of abortionists are actually really judgmental of their patients) “health care” (how healthy was it for Gianna, again?).
I’ll take your refusal to actually answer the question I posed in relation to Gianna as a concession on your part.
A fetus is not a child.
Awesome drinking game: Every time Jan says “A fetus is not a child.” take a drink!
Is this PeriodPiece? I bet it is. She’s the only one I’ve ever seen who has to repeat the same baseless crap as much as you do to try and convince herself that what she’s saying is true while providing zero proof.
Women are people with full right to bodily autonomy.
Full? Yes. No one here debates this. Absolute? No. No one, male or female, has an absolute right to full bodily autonomy that violates the basic human rights of others, especially not minor children. (oh, you never mentioned anything about the Utah Supreme Court’s decision that gestating human beings are minor children, either!)
If one person reads this thread and sees the insults, shaming, anecdotes and Judeo-Christian myths you pass off as facts, then your abuse is worth it.
If one person reads this thread and sees the evasiveness, lack of evidence, the chanting of baseless mantras, combativeness, accusations of religious motivation when none of been expressed, unwillingness to listen, and accusations of abuse that simply has not occurred that Jan exhibits, then her being here is worth it.
Bah. What I wouldn’t give to get the “Edit” feature back. ;_;
Jan – Catholic school induced fantasies? Explain yourself, please.
Insulting me is not engaging in discussion. Abortion hurts women. For statistics, go look at the Guttmacher Institute, dig through the double-talk and find out yourself.
And I want to you to address the issue of men wanting sex without consequences and its relationship to abortion. I am sure that you don’t want to be their apologist.
And Jan, surgical abortion is just that – surgery. The “procedure” euphemism is not accurate.
Thanks!
Susan
@xalisae: Is this PeriodPiece? I bet it is. She’s the only one I’ve ever seen who has to repeat the same baseless crap as much as you do to try and convince herself that what she’s saying is true while providing zero proof.
Do you know…I think it is! Her profile on Twitter gives her name as Janlynne, and one of your recent comments to Jan was quoted by PeriodPiece here.
You are a clever bunch! I’ll leave you to your logical fallacy and illogical fantasy.
Thanks again for showing your true colors and proving my point that you have no factual arguments over and over. This will be very helpful.
Hey Jan – don’t tweet my stuff – think up your own thoughts and tweet them.
Thanks!
Susan
PS. You’re a chicken. I’ve tried several times to engage you from a feminist perspective and you have ignored me.
All the soccer coaches diddling their teenage girl players thank you profusely for keeping their crimes a secret by keeping abortion legal and free of annoying oversight!
Hey, Susan. Don’t tell me what to do. Don’t call me names. Seek help.
Thanks for all the material. Plenty of good stuff here.
Cheers!
Being called “a clever bunch” by someone who, after repeated posts, doesn’t seem to know that the plural of “fetus” is “fetuses” should be taken as a compliment.
“Susan … seek help”.
Jan, have you ever sought help for symptoms of borderline personality disorder or other DSM-IV Type II Cluster B traits?
“Chicken” is more of a description than a name….
PowerWord: IRL name! Watch her flee. LMAO! XD
PP, you’re a joke. You always have been, and still are. All you have is your regurgitated b.s.
You’re basically a Connor sock puppet.
I’d hate to be someone else’s sock puppet irl. *smirk*
When you’re ready to actually debate me, please let me know.
Thanks for all the material. Plenty of good stuff here.
Yeah. It’s called “truth”. I’m sure you’re unfamiliar with it, so this must be a refreshing change for you. ;)
“her child’s “bodily autonomy” – a fetus doesn’t have ‘bodily autonomy’ until well past the halfway point of gestation and even then it’s only with medical intervention and support.
“No, they still exist, and exist as children” – maybe in the ‘Twilight Zone’. Can you show me any?
“it is the man who wants her available for consequence free sex.” – what, are there no women who want ‘consequence free’ sex?
Janlynne,
Your uterus is not a super hero but the human fetus you paid to abort was your child.
I am so sorry that you killed your child in order that you be able to continue your wanton ways. What freedom!
Post that.
Of course there are women who want consequence free sex. But the Reality is that they are the ones who bear the brunt of the inevitable consequences, with their valiant impregnator on the sidelines bearing a couple of Franklins.
My assertion was not that only men wanted consequence free sex, but that abortion benefited those men significantly more than it benefits women.
Actually, I have plenty of material now and it’s just getting boring trying to sort out your long-winded rhetoric.
Thanks again for proving my point. Insults, shaming, no fact.
it’s just getting boring trying to sort out your long-winded rhetoric.
Thanks again for proving my point. Insults, shaming, no fact.
Translation:
I can’t wrap my brain around actual facts that are not just Planned Parenthood propaganda and regurgitated slogans. I will forever interpret this inability on my part to engage in actual, factual debate as you insulting me. You were doomed before you ever tried to engage me, because all I wanted to do was spew my nonsense while ignoring everything you presented.
Leave it to women’s intuition. Jan does turn out to be post-abortive. And she’s convinced herself that a human fetus is a human fetus. Which means to her the same thing as a human gallbladder.
Odd how they have their own unique dna and GENDER. But she believes they are alien intruders that must be destroyed. And if the mother – er, bodily automonous woman feels like delaying execution for a few months, this “human fetus” creature magically transforms into a “human being”. Not in the magical birth canal, but by taking in a few magic breaths.
Got it. You have finally made your point, Jan. We are in awe of your wisdom.
You keep saying that. What makes you think I had an abortion?
Hey, mods: I have two comments in moderation now, but all the comments of your people insulting me and calling me names are still up. So much for rules of commenting.
Jan – if you don’t want your behavior to be called “chicken,” then why don’t you address the issues instead of repeating your one-liners and then flouncing over and over again?
You seem like a strong woman. I am surprised that a woman who uses such vulgar language on her twitter account would be wounded by such a mild term.
Try again, Jan. Your attempt at playing the victim is really rather pathetic – the attempt, not you.
You, Jan, are a child of God, created in His image with inestimable worth.
The reason some people think you are post-abortive is that you spend an inordinate amount of time and use an incredible amount of mental gymnastics to justify it in every situation.
There’s healing to be found. If you quit fighting. Abortion hurts women.
“What makes you think I had an abortion?”
Woman’s intuition.
Jan, you don’t have to believe in God to heal from emotional trauma. I’m sorry you see so much negativity in things. It must be hard to live like that.
Sorry, Jan. Your tweets surely peg you as an abortion fan, and many of them are trying desparately to convince themselves that black is white.
We’ve proved the point that a fetus is a very young human being. You have yet to prove that breathing means “alive” and other methods of oxygenating do not.
You’re not liking our being annoyed at you doesn’t prove any point except that you don’t like being disagreed with.
We’ve given you plenty of facts. My last sentence was convoluted but still technically decent grammar. How else are we “proving your point”? I assumed that just referred to us being snippy with you.
When newborns were a few minutes younger, they were also human beings. What unknown species do you claim they were?
The Bible starts out by saying God’s breath made Adam a “living soul”. As opposed to a non-living one. Soul means a life or lifeform, not something in said life. Thus “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
The Bible says even more clearly that “life is in the blood.”
That blood has been pumping since almost nine months before that baby takes her first breath.
Your Bible knowledge is the equal of your biology knowledge.
I just want to know how a child can have fetal alcohol syndrome if a fetus is not a child. I mean, shouldn’t that be cured when the non-child-fetus is replaced by the non-fetus-child after the non-child-fetus inhales the magical substance called “air”? I mean, I’m no Pro-Legal-Abortion scientist, so Janlynne’s gonna have to explain this to me, since she like, knows all the facts and stuff, and we’ve, like, presented no facts or anything. #lolanti life, #lolanti human, #epic #prochoice #logicfail #FTL
p.s. I don’t think Janlynne’s had an abortion. I just think she hates human beings. That’s why she supports their mass killing via abortion and is vegan. She’s just butthurt that she wasn’t born a pony or some crap.
Sorry Jan, you don’t get to make up your own definitions of words and declare that as fact. You can only declare that “fetus are not children” if you ignore that one of the definitions of child is indeed fetus in several standard dictionaries.
Jan,
I knew when my head hit the pillow that I might have given you reason to believe I had finally proven your “point”. Out of maybe 100 billion people (from short-lived embryo to Methusaleh) only Adam started his life with his first breath.
Unfortunately, you undoubtedly don’t believe he existed, judging from your ridicule of religious beliefs.
As you might hear on Jeopardy, “Ooo. Sawrry!”
Lrning: Sorry Jan, you don’t get to make up your own definitions of words and declare that as fact. You can only declare that “fetus are not children” if you ignore that one of the definitions of child is indeed fetus in several standard dictionaries.
It’s all the same – it’s just as (at least as, in fact) correct to say the unborn “are not children” as to maintain they are. The dictionary is descriptive, not prescriptive, and a given person can pick the usage that most appeals to them, there.
Doug,
This is why I don’t like the word “unborn”. Too many people see it as meaning “not alive” or some alien species.
I prefer “soon-to-be-born” because it’s the most accurate description of what’s going on here. Born is just the past tense of “to bear”. Someone is alive both before and after they are carried somewhere.
Doug says:
It’s all the same – it’s just as (at least as, in fact) correct to say the unborn “are not children” as to maintain they are.
******************************************************
It’s only correct to say “fetus are not children” if you deny common usage of the word child, as shown by inclusion in the dictionary definitions. In other words, it’s not correct. You can deny that a word has a certain meaning all you want. It’s not going to be persuasive to people that use common understanding of the meaning of the word however. It reduces the effectiveness of communication to deny a common meaning of a word and insist that anyone that uses that word for the common meaning is wrong. It’s silly in fact.
Thank you Heather, for your kind words. Hey Jan, you are free to keep your knees together or get your tubes tied :)