Does pro-choice logic extend to infanticide?
… [I]t isn’t pro-lifers who should worry about the Giubilini–Minerva proposal. It’s pro-choicers. The case for “after-birth abortion” draws a logical path from common pro-choice assumptions to infanticide. It challenges us, implicitly and explicitly, to explain why, if abortion is permissible, infanticide isn’t….
The challenge posed to… pro-choice absolutists by “after-birth abortion” is this: How do they answer the argument… that any maternal interest, such as the burden of raising a gravely defective newborn, trumps the value of that freshly delivered nonperson?
What value does the newborn have? At what point did it acquire that value?
And why should the law step in to protect that value against the judgment of a woman and her doctor?
~ William Saletan, Slate, March 12
[Photo via wikipedia.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Exactly.
Infants born prematurely can sometimes be the same age as fetuses who get aborted. The only difference between the two is that the prematurely born ones are outside the womb and often everyone scrambles to save them, while the fetuses, just because of their location, are still considered nonpersons.
They’re exactly the same age, the only difference is location. They’re still eating up resources of other people–the fetus inside its mother, the prematurely-born baby having a bunch of doctors scrambling to save it…
A child lost in miscarriage is cause for grief and even Planned Parenthood doesn’t argue that point but accepts it as saddening, while I’ve seen people attempt to argue that Post Abortion Syndrome does not exist (which is clearly not true).
The argument I see most often for abortion as of late is “prove it’s a human ‘being’ “. They can’t argue it’s not human, but they can try to argue the ‘being’ part as much as they want. But once you establish it’s human, you can’t take that approach. The pro-choice argument requires more mystical magical thought than the pro-life argument, even if the pro-lifer is religious and the pro-choicer is not. According to one who is pro-choice, a soul–or “being”-ness if one prefers just magically appears at birth, because of that trip down the birth canal. (Or that trip out via c-section.) Or worse, that being-ness depends on the individual parents’ wishes (which, logically, would lead to parents who don’t appreciate the kids they do keep and so mistreat and abuse / murder them are just acting within their rights. Which according to the law, they arent.)
The only logical conclusion is that abortion is illogical, and things that are illogical can be taken to their logical conclusions.
Right now, value of a fetus/newborn is directly realted to his wantedness by ONLY the mother. What I want to know is what/when do they acquire thier own inalienable rights?
How? How, how, how? William Saletan gets so much right and yet he still supports abortion? How does he…argh. It’s just so frustrating. He practically makes pro-life arguments over and over by virtue of simply being intellectually honest when so many other abortion apologists refuse to, and yet he still won’t just cross the last line.
*in threatening voice* Your day is coming William Saletan of Slate. You will finally take that step. And when that day arrives, we will share with you our pro-life cupcakes. Oh, yes. There will be cake. *ominous thunder*
@Courtnay: When they’re in their terrible twos and learn the word “no”?
I honestly have no clue, once one devalues human life at any stage it can lead to logical breaches and arbitrary lines all over the place.
A friend of a friend has a 22 week old micro premie in the hospital right now. According to leading pro-abortionists that’s not only ‘non viable’ (last update he was actually doing rather well), but not even developed enough to feel pain. And right now he is far more ‘dependant’ upon others for his continued existance than he would be if he was still in mom’s womb. (Btw, prayers for Baby Jacob are appreciated. There hasn’t been a new update for a few days, I don’t know if that is suggestive of him doing better so there isn’t anything to report or much worse and parents are too busy to post, previous updates were on facebook).
I’ll keep baby Jacob in mind in my prayers, Jespren, God bless.
Sarah, I have 3. If I could have taken them out in their terrible twos, I wouldn’t have ANY. LOL.
You are so right: once we start drawing a circle around a certain demographic of human life and saying (Well, yeah, it’s human, but not like you and I are human….), we are in trouble.
It’s the weak vs. the strong.
The level of philosophical gymnastics that abortion lovers have to train and compete in must be exhausting.
weve already accepted infanticide when we legalized abortion. children are found in dumpters every day. i think it should be first degree murder. its swept under the rug. amy grossberg threw her full term son into a dumpster. melissa drexler threw her baby into a garbage can at the prom. why are both women out of prison? because we dont value the unborn or chilren who arent wanted.
jespren my sons name is jacob. they are fighters;)
Born at 34 weeks in 1966, I was 4 lbs 2 oz. Doctors didn’t give me much chance, but my parents and their Faith did.
“we’ve already accepted infanticide when we legalized abortion.”
Exceedingly true Heather, well said.
Always fun to read the comments on a William Saletan article. The prochoicers are harder on him then we are, so that really says something.
lol, watching Saletan argue our points for us then talk about how stupid we are is amusing to me. I guess to be pro-legal-abortion in the first place, you have to be adept at cognitive dissonance, so I guess he thinks his position and statements are reasonable. XD
i know a 33 year old man named drew. he was born at a pound ( his mom told me so ) hes deaf but he is in nooooo way stupid! his speech is somewhat audible and hes the cable guy;)
yep eric amy grossbergs parents spent their life savings on her defense. she ended up doing only 2 years for throwing her infant son into a dumpster on a frigid november night. she hid her pregnancy from everyone. she was caught because she had pre eclampsia. she ended up convulsing in her hotel room and was taken to a hospital. the placenta was delivered there. to this day she does NOT visit the childs grave and she accepts no responsibility. read the book ALWAYS IN OUR HEARTS….its a great read!
oops she began convulsing in her college dorm room.. and melissa drexler ( prom mom ) is now a mom of 2. she got 15 years but only did 2?????
and eric the only people at baby boy Grossbergs funeral were a rabbi and a few members of the funeral home. no grandparents from either side attended. amy is now running her own business called JUST BECAUSE greeting cards. she even makes cards for people expecting a baby. odd!
The Giubilini-Minerva proposal fails to respond to the central claim of abortion as a right: that a person’s self-ownership extends to anything that is inside their body, whether or not it is genetically unique, and regardless of how it got there. In fact, it completely sidesteps that claim entirely. It’s a worthless, specious polemic.
ok Joan – so a woman swallows a diamond ring worth millions that is not hers – does that mean she gets to keep the ring? nope. sorry – location does not determine ownership.
What is worthless is the mind-gymnastics needed to convince oneself and others that reality is not real. A child in the womb may seem worthless, but that child is priceless. And yes – it is legal now to kill that child while in the uterus… and the logical extension is that death is allowed outside of the uterus.
But in the end – unjust laws do not stand a long time if a society is just. At some point – people will recognize that members of humanity must be protected and not turned into commodities.
As with slavery, women’s rights to vote, and civil rights (and others) recognizing the humanness of all of our brothers and sisters - regardless of function, age, race, gender, location, economic status, size etc wins out – and we welcome those humans into the family, with protections.
Worthless? hardly. Priceless is more like it.
It’s the one safe place for a baby: the womb.
Unless she doesn’t want you.
HOW does that make sense?
AND PS: Proaborts? You aren’t helping your cause when you refer to an unborn baby as a “parasite.”
Joan: I have a right to my body. I have a right not to be murdered, I have a right to swing my arms around, I have a right to run around my house for no readily apparent reason. I have been exercising my right to my body by refraining from sex until I am absolutely ready for it. Maybe that’s frustrating for some people, but no one’s shriveled up and died because of that decision I made.
My right to my body doesn’t extend to harming another human–which my very secular Anatomy textbook shows, the zygote/embryo/fetus/baby is. Whether they’re a “being” or not, they’re human and deserve dignity. If I ever do get pregnant, I will have an obligation to that child. No one would be holding a gun to my head forcing me to have that baby, I would carry that baby to term because it’s the only right and responsible thing to do. There is a difference between force and obligation. The thing with abortion is that while the woman is not necessarily forced into it (though sadly, some are, and many are coerced if not physically forced), it forces death on the child, who is not obligated to die.
Courtnay: I know, right? If babies are parasites why the heck does the uterus even exist?
Joan, you don’t own the body of another human person. You don’t own the life of another human person. Unless you’re a slave owner.
That’s a really good question: why should your baby be obliged to die for you? YOU (as a mom) are the parent. It’s the first self-sacrificing act of responsibility that will be the first of many.
The problems for abortion proponents don’t run out there. They also have to deal with the fact that pro-life advocates were the first to criticize the ethicists for endorsing infanticide. This destroys the popular myth that pro-lifers only care about babies before they’re born.
Jen: I’m pretty sure slave owners don’t own anyone either, it’s a false ownership that infringes on the rights of another human, which is why slavery was banned.
In regards to Amy Grossberg, etc. middle class white women usually get off easy in cases like this.
I just wonder who would marry a woman who put her child in a garbage can? I wouldn’t trust her around any child — but I guess the ones they had after their “mishaps” were wanted, so that makes all the difference.
Sarah: abortion will be banned one day too. We can live without abortion, just as we could without slavery. Hold on.
http://www.justbecauseinvitations.com/maincards.html
Here’s a link to Amy Grossberg’s company. The cards are cute, but nothing special. It’s interesting that on her website, she doesn’t list her name at all.
that a person’s self-ownership extends to anything that is inside their body
Oh. Well, so much for body cavity searches to find drugs or weapons. I suppose the “ownership” of the drugs extends to the person in whose body cavity the drugs were found?
indeed phillymiss…money talks. amy is now in her 30s but TONS of people will always remember baby boy Grossberg! heck she killed him in 96 and shes been living with her parents ever since the incident. in the book it stated that 2 sets of lawyers quit the case because the Grossbergs stood by Amy and kept repeating “Amy did nothing wrong.” this was proven to be their biggest mistake. she also violated the gag order and granted Barbra Walters an interview. Brian Peterson stood by her and begged her to tell her mom. Amy refused and Brian was with her at the birth. that baby had multiple skull fractures. so Brians lawyers were gonna take it to trial and have Brian testify against Amy. she finally accepted a plea as after the birth she told Brian “get rid of it!!!”
i should point out that Brian Peterson was baby boy Grossbergs father. even when Amy went into labor and they were driving he begged her to allow him to take her to the hospital. she refused ” NO WAY i cannot get caught! so Brian did as he was told. he freaked out at the birth. Amy almost died but she was interviewed in her ICU bed by a psychiatric obgyn he asked her “what did you think about having a 6 pound baby?” Amy replied “I thought i had a blob.” sound familiar pro aborts? Peterson did less time than Amy and he is now married and living in Jupiter Florida.
yeah philymiss ive also been to amys site and you have to sign in. there are a lot of web sites who want to do horrible things to her. her life is still in danger. people hate her and brian.
Grossberg and Drexler should be doing life without parole ( my opinion ) and when ppl found out about her site she got hate mail and others said they would expose the spoiled little brat!
yet in my area Jessica Coleman. another girl who hid her pregnancy at 15. the dad was a teacher at my old high school. Jessica gave birth in her room and stabbed the baby to death. she put him in her closet and went to eat dinner with her family. she and the bf put the body in a duffel bag and tossed him into a lake. they put heavy rocks in the bag so he would sink. at 22 Jessica confessed due to guilt. she appeared on Oprah Winfrey via satellite. she only did 6 years! im sure shes out now. a kind man buried her baby and ” adopted” him in death.
GEE i thought abortion promised to solve this problem? looks like its on the rise to me. Grossbergs boyfriend ( at his witts end) withdrew money twice so that Grossberg could have an abortion. she went but refused. she told Brian ” im afraid i will get an infection and my mom will find out.”
Well I welcomed my male fetus into the community of humans today. I fail to see how he is any diferrent now than he was 8 hours ago when my magical vagina was conferring personhood…or was it? Same living being. If you are pro abortion then infanticide makes sense.
Congratulations, Sydney! Welcome baby boy!
Congratulations, Sydney! I trust he’ll grow up into a fine young man :)
Sydney, congratulations! You must be thrilled. We’re all very happy for you.
Congratulations to you and your family Sydney! Babies are so wonderful — in and outside our wombs!
Details, please!
Congratulations Sydney! Blessings to you and your family!
@Sydney: Yay! Isn’t it so nice to have an actual person in your family instead of a potential person who might be? ;)
In all seriousness, though, congratulations! I hope you are well and comfy.
I was just thinking you were soon to give birth, Sydney. Congratulations! I hope you and your son are resting and doing well. Every time the words magical vagina are used, I can’t help but think of that series Magical School Bus. Needless to say, some weird imagery in my head.
Well, most of us on THIS site recognized he was as “real” “in this world” and a “person” as the rest of us 24 hours ago, or an hour ago. Wait, has he touched a tree or heard a dog bark? Those were some examples given by reality as conditions for being “in this world”. Be sure to get those two off the personhood checklist asap. Enjoy your little one and God bless your family!
Saleton and his friends should put some boots on, because what we have here is what you call a slippery slope.
Sydney, congrats! Pennsylvania’s a little sunnier. I’m sure we’re all welling up like John Boehner!
Congratulations, Sydney! SOOOO happy for you! :D
sydney was it March 15th? and congrats aside whats his name?;)
Sydney–did you have a baby? How did the conferring of personhood actually go? Congrats to you!!!
Sydney, congratulations! How wonderful!
Woohoo! Congratulations, Sydney! :)
Woo! Go Sydney! Your baby’s birthday is the same day as my and my fiance’s anniversary. 2 years yesterday. :D
Congrats to you!
Ha ha! Yes, Heather it was March 15th! Everyone was amazed I predicted his birth date correctly. He was 8 pounds, 7 ounces, 21 inches long with tons of dark, thick hair. I birthed him naturally after 4 1/2 hours of labor. Most intense pain I’ve ever felt and I felt like superwoman when I was done. It was an awesome birth.
And the whole time I was in labor I kept thinking of 2 things. One, there was a teen who was as far along as I was in my pregnancy who was forced to abort in August near my hometown. We were trying to help her but she had the abortion. The day she aborted was the day I saw my second son on ultrasound at 8 weeks, twirling around. I thought about her as I labored, how she should be welcoming her child too. And it broke my heart.
Then as labor progressed and the contractions were VERY painful, I thought about the girls who were also in labor at that very moment in Orlando Fl where they were doing late term abortions on March 15th. They were feeling the same intense pain I was but the end result wasn’t an adorable baby with big cheeks like I got, but a dead baby in a toilet. And I couldn’t imagine going through this pain for nothing but loss.
Anyhow, I guess my son is kinda welcomed into the community of humans. Hopefully he will begin to express his sentience soon so he can be considered a true person.
I had a friend who got a second trimester abortion. she never told me but I heard it from a friend who helped take her to the “”doctor”” who performed the act.I never talked to her about it because I respect her right to privacy even when it comes to such a horrible thing.but,Now,two years later,I have a beautiful baby girl of my own.
I make my baby Abigale a testament to the validity of life to my misguided friend in the hoeps that she will see what she killed and repent.its the only thing I can think to do while respecting her privacy.Honestly we are not such close friends anymore because I do not respect her, but we must be the light of the Lord esepcially to those who are off the path……….
All I can say is that if I was pro-choice/anti-life/pro-abortion, I would support infanticide:
Pro-choice logic:
*My body, my choice
*Now is not a good time to have a baby (job, poor, school, not-married, alone etcetera)
*Has or might have a disability or problems
*I did not want a baby in the first place
*No-one should force me to have a child I do not want
*Adoption would leave likely a child unwanted, unloved, and abused
*The process of getting the baby out will hurt
*Their could be complications
*My body will be ruined
*Too expensive
*My life could be in danger
Pro-Infanticide logic:
*It was a mistake to keep the baby (disability, too much work, etcetera)
*I lost my job and cannot take care of another person
*My body is suffering due to all the work I have to do (breast-feeding, cleaning, diaper changes, forced up at night, insistent cries, trying to fit in work/school if not-married and no family help etcetera)
*I want to pursue a career, but time-management with my baby/child will not allow it
*My child is sick and will not get better
*My child is in constant pain
*Adoption agencies will likely leave my child unwanted, unloved, and abused
*My child is too hard to control
*I was forced into having the child and I still do not want it
*I want to end my child’s suffering
Agencies like Planned Parenthood promise “Ever child a wanted child”, so therefore all children who are unwanted (disability, troublesome, no-one to take care of them) should no longer have to suffer, including those still kept by their mother’s or even the one’s who were adopted, not just those who are still waiting.
After all, why should a woman’s choice end at pre-birth?
Plus, if it was really about woman’s choice, then the man should be COMPLETELY out of the picture, it is like this before the child’s birth, it should be the same after (arguable for married couples, but not well for unmarried), unless the man wants to help. Meaning, the man should have no obligation to pay child support especially if the woman is pro-choice. The child’s DNA was the same when forming in the womb and the same after, the development of the body was just different. Otherwise, woman are getting far too much special treatment here, it is simply sexist to not allow the man to NOT pay for child support if he so desires. The woman DECIDED herself to follow through with the pregnancy, clearly the man should have NO say about whether child should have lived or died according to pro-choicers (same as with family members), so therefore the mother should have to take the responsibility for her OWN decision and pay for the child without any help from the father, unless he or others CHOOSE for themselves to give it. But there should be no law forcing him to pay.