Stanek weekend question: How often do you think about abortion?

I’m in Florida on vacation this week, but even while getting a little R&R there seems to always be something that triggers thoughts of abortion.
For instance, we were visiting the Flagler Museum in Key West a couple days ago, and when I read that the first passenger train arrived there on January 22, 1912, the date immediately reminded me of the U.S. Supreme Court’s infamous Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion in all 50 states, which was handed down 61 years later to the day.
Then yesterday we were taking a tour of Ernest Hemingway’s house, also in Conch Republic, when the guide mentioned the resident descendents (44!) of his famous polydactyls “are on planned parenthood,” he said. “The females are allowed to have one litter and are spayed.”
Really? I thought. I almost laughed out loud at the irony.
Also yesterday we happened upon a beach cemetery where 295 African men, women, and children were buried in 1860. The U.S. Navy had rescued them from slave ships, but they were in such poor health they died nonetheless.
My heart ached for them, particularly having just finished the book, Amazing Grace, about the life of William Wilberforce, which went into great detail on the horrifying conditions on those ships.
I wondered to myself whether there has ever been a time in human history where the immoral powerful have treated the innocent powerless as nonhuman. And, of course, once again I was reminded of abortion.
Abolitionist Thomas Clarkson was a key player in the English abolitionist movement. He contributed by researching and documenting how slaves were treated. (His reproduction of a slave ship cargo area horrified all of England.) From the book:
In Liverpool, Clarkson came upon the unimaginable but verified story of a slave captain who had flogged his own steward for two and a quarter hours. Not surprisingly, the man died. Stories like this piled up until the strain began to tell on Clarkson. “I was agonised to think that this Trade could last another day,” he wrote. “I was in a state of agitation from morning to night.”
Does abortion keep you in a “state of agitation from morning to night”? Or are you able to walk away from it? Or perhaps it’s not a big deal to you?

I don’t obsess about it or lose sleep over it, but since I check JillStanek.com almost everyday and am a volunteer in a local pro-life group, I’d say I’m reminded of it almost every day.
Abortion and contraceptive are something I wake up thinking about, and continue throughout my day reading and writing about. Besides my family concerns and tasks, abortion is the last thing on my mind before I go to sleep. Like mentioned above, I don’t lose sleep over it, but it is ever-present in my mind. I’ll hear casual conversation about families or children and it can almost always be tied to a contraceptive way of thinking.
I think about it every day. As a woman and a mom, how can I not? I try to stay current on the news stories dealing with abortion (this site helps me with that). Being pregnant and getting prayer requests for women who are as far along as I am and having abortions keeps me in a state of “agitation”. It breaks my heart every day that children are being killed.
Too often.
As a woman who has observed the sexual revolution evolve since the early 1960’s I have become convinced that it is the greatest evil that has taken over the social state of affairs in the United States of America as well likely the world by now. Why, because it seems to me that it has caused a spiritual enslavement to what is intrinsicly innate in all of us and that is the “knowledge of good and evil”. Do I think about incessantly? No, not to a pathological degree but to the extent that I feel a sense of urgency to be part of taking a stand. The national news on the subject is very disturbing, but on the other hand it needs to be addressed. At this moment in time, I think serious reseach has to occur to prove that the overall results of the sexual revolution is destroying something very important in our overall being and this includes both men and women and clearly families as a whole. The thought of children being sexualized and labeled before their brains are fully developed without a question is a form of enslavement. It is abhorrent to me and the thought of it makes me angry. Through all of this we have created subcultures and subculture powers who are changing our world in ways we cannot even imagine. The thought of test tube babies, surrogate mothers and same sex parents in not inconceivable in the very near future. As a Christian this is very frightening and I believe the Creator of all mankind is not looking at it favorably. I am horrified at the thought that this could have crept up opon us so easily.
I think about it all the time. Usually I can separate myself from it, but sometimes, if I’m feeling particularly awful on a certain day, it does make me agitated. If i accidentally read an abortion story, or click on pictures of aborted babies, I usually spend at least an hour or so crying. I have nightmares about it sometimes too. Its really the feeling of powerlessness that gets me – and the fact that no one around me seems to care. And if you do care, people see you as crazy, or under the thumb of men who want to control women. I just don’t get how millions of innocent people can be killed, and no one can care!
“How often do you think about abortion?”
Only when I am awake or when I am dreaming.
Eric Metaxas is the author of biographies of both Dietrich Bonhoeffer and William Wilberforce.
[I already read ‘Bohhoeffer’. I recommend it. Looking forward to reading ‘Wilberforce’.]
Metaxas was the keynote speaker at the recent prayer breakfast in Washington, D.C. where bo was also in attendance.
Metaxas gave mr bo-jangles a copy of both books.
It’s hard to say how often I think about it because like Vita said above, I come on here every day. Also, because we still want another baby, and I’ve always loved and been around babies, it’s hard for those images of little,precious ABORTED babies not to creep into my thoughts at some point.
That’s what really bothers me. Not just that those babies were murdered, but that SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE (like me) would gladly have taken any of those babies and LOVED them.
Like I’ve said before, there’s no such thing as an “unwanted” baby. just because the parents don’t want him/her doesn’t mean that NOBODY does.
Janet @ 11:47:
Beautifully said.
I would add that abortion is all around us in the absence of so many fellow travelers in this journey of life. Kind of like living life with fewer sunny days. We are so much the poorer for all of the gifts and creative talents our fallen brothers and sisters would have brought to our world. In this way abortion is omnipresent in the sense of our living with its very real consequences–spiritually (the culture of death), socially, and economically.
Anyone who lives in or has traveled to Florida or Arizona during the winter months sees the incredible disproportion of old to young in public places. This is to be our future nearly everywhere if the abortion mentality is not replaced with a culture of life.
Since I live in a small mountain community where 90% of the folk are Episopalian, and many are priests or studying to become one, it is on my mind a lot. How anyone could claim to be a follower of Jesus and yet put their sick imprimatur on such a heinous act escapes me. But yet these are my friends, my colleagues, my neighbors. So I walk around with my Stand True Tshirt (hi Bryan!!) and drive around with my CHOOSE LIFE license plate. I smile and I wave. But there is a part of my constantly at battle.
I think about it every time I pull into a nearly empty parking lot and wonder who was supposed to be parked there today but isn’t because they were denied life. I think about it every time I pass an empty park and wonder who was supposed to be playing there today but isn’t because they were aborted. I think about it every time I’m sitting in a half empty restaurant with my kids and wonder who was supposed to be sitting at the other tables but isn’t there because they were aborted. I think about it whenever my son brings home a new yearbook from school and I wonder whose missing that was supposed to be there but isn’t because they were aborted. I think about it when I watch the news and wonder if yet another horrible situation or crime occurred that was meant to be stopped by someone but wasn’t because they were denied their lifetime by abortion. I think about it at night before I go to bed and I wonder who the world will miss out on because they were killed today in an abortion. I wonder all the time how many of my single and lonely friends are still single because the person they were destined for was erased by abortion. Abortion is all around us.
Only when I come here or see it specifically mentioned in another capacity. I don’t live in perpetual fear of abortion rights being revoked or severely restricted, as many liberals do, because I know that our social and government institutions are much more resilient to small-minded partisan social engineering than that. If they weren’t, we would never have lasted this long.
“Small minded partisan social engineering.”
You mean like killing a certain demographic because they’re inconvenient??
ROTFLMAO.
Slavery lasted a really long time too.
I have been also thinking about the Nancy Pelosi hearing involving the young woman who is a law student at a Jesuit university. This had to have been a set up. I simply cannot conceive in my mind of anything other than is was another political ploy to gather votes. If not, then it has to be that many have become so brainwashed and so socialized to actually believe that contraception is a civil right for unmarrieds to be supported by taxpayers. The other medical arguements are beside the point.
The backlash was horrible but a not surprise to me because there are a lot of angry people out there who cannot morally deal with this.
The sexual revolution has produced some very sexually aggressive women. That is something that needs to be admitted. Those of us who have raised sons can attest to that. The abortion contraception is something that needs to be addressed by a cohort of both men and women who can see how damaging the current situation is.
Janet,
She’s already been exposed as a 30 year old white house plant. Read my blog.
I think about it probably every day because I am addicted to this blog!!:) In all seriousness, though, I was at mass yesterday (pray every day for an end to abortion) and started thinking about John Paul 2’s beautiful words about the human person being unique and unrepeatable. Unrepeatable. Every single one of these preborn human beings that have been killed because the law says it is ok was unrepeatable! There will never be another human being like him or her. It is so depressing and so heartbreaking. Thank God for the pro-life movement.
MoronicProchoiceQuotes read your blog. Besides what you have done, how does she and the party get exposed for what they are? She should be in Hollywood!
For a good time call, Sandra Fluke: 202-456-1414
[BYOC, bring your own condoms]
the
30 year old white……houseplant
or
30 year old whitehouse…….plant
or
30 year old white…….house…… plant
who wrote her own name and phone number on the men’s room wall.
Was Sandra Fluke cultivated in the Moochelle’s white house garden
or
just another artificial flower indigenous to the D.C. Belt Way culture?
We can rule out cherry blossoms and Jennifer Flowers, but ‘weeping willow’, posion ivy and prickly pear are still in the running.
I think about abortion every day. I can never forget about the injustice going on in our country, but at the same time I have to step away from it sometimes and commit myself to other aspects of my life.
Back to the subject at hand, Lately I have been wondering about the fall of Rome.
Jill,
I well remember touring the Hemingway house in 1969 as a 14-year-old lad. Mostly I remember the huge pool and that the place was crawling with cats. I didn’t know they were polydactyls!
Abortion is the moral issue of our time.
I would like to think if I grew up on an antebellum plantation or in the Deep South last century, I would have been for civil rights for blacks. But who can say?
I do know that ever since I learned of “the birds and the bees” life was precious and awesome from the very beginning. We have no excuse.
And now that visiting this blog is a habit of mine, how can I not think of it every day? And that’s all for the better.
Thanks Laura, that’s some really important advice. It’s pretty frustrating some times, especially when PP is saying they speak up for all women, and I am the victim of their big excuse to kill babies.
Obama is an evil Uncle Tom. I pray and hope the Latino voting bloc and the luke-warm Christians can see that he is only hijacking other’s moral strongholds to denigrate the religous moral foundations he finds so threatening to his amoral power base.
I do what I can, then it’s in God’s hands.
This is a question I would love to ask each one of our politicians. So many great responses on this thread – I say “amen” to most of them, except joan’s, she seems to be ornery just for the sake of it.
Since there’s another, newer commenter Janet (who is much more articulate than I, I must say) I’m changing my moniker to “janetforlife”. I thought about “oldjanet” but thought better of it. :)
NOTHING would make me happier than to live in a world where aborting a baby is “immoral”; political correctness be damned.
I would add that abortion is all around us in the absence of so many fellow travelers in this journey of life. Kind of like living life with fewer sunny days.
Jerry –
Amen.
Joan of arcania,
You are in the same spiritual, moral and philosophical camp as Lord Melborn:
“Things have come to a pretty pass, when one should permit one’s religion to invade public life.”
In the thick of the battle for abolition, one of its many dedicated opponents, Lord Melbourne, was outraged that Wilberforce dared inflict his Christian values about slavery and human equality on British society.
You would still be viewed as chattell if if weren’t for pesky Christians asserting their values in public life.
“Lately I have been wondering about the fall of Rome.”
Sounds like a good start.
Janet,
Best thing you can do is tell people she’s been exposed. Spread the word. This was all engineered to make PP look like the hero (as usual) and college age women as innocent victims who need their sexual encounters paid for. Obama is doing well with younger women because of this kind of pandering for votes. It certainly served its purpose in distracting folks from PP’s recent grinding of Komen under their heel, and all the other issues that were sidelined by all the talk. I don’t want to derail the convo here by going off topic anymore, I’ll continue to update on my blog as soon as there are new developments. The dems have egg on their faces and are naturally refusing to own their own lies-business as usual. I hope this all blows up in Obama’s face, especially after his phony phone call to Fluke’s parents to applaud her courage. Pelosi was eating it all up like the abortion thug she is. Meh, rant over.
In answer to Denise, as to my thoughts about Linda Lovelace. I have not seen any of the films including Deep Throat. I only heard about the movie. My guess is what happened to her is likely true. I base is strictly on what I have experienced in my professional career and what I know happens to women. One thing about a career in the nursing profession is you see the worst in people and the best in people. Those of us who have worked in the mental health field, ER, prison nursing have seen or heard of worst things that can ever happen. Most of us, in order to stand working in those fields put it out of our minds and focus on the best. For me real life has been stranger than fiction.
Hey gang. Rush Limbaugh apologized. He had already lost a number of advertisers and even some Republicans (Scott Brown for one) were throwing him under the bus. Given that Fluke said NOTHING about her own sexual history,(her testimony is readily available) Rush’s attorney’s might have been a little nervous about a defamation of character law suit. Even the president of Georgetown (right, he should be excommunicated) weighed in against Rush.
Democrats have eggs on their faces – talk about moronic!
And question for moronic – when you ride by prisons, do you mourn the number of inmates who would be there if they weren’t aborted? Hate to break it to ya but not all aborted fetuses would be law abiding citizens. And given the percentage of child abuse in the non aborted population, there are less abused children as a result of Roe. Do you mourn the loss of potential abused children? Talk about moronic!
“who wrote her own name and phone number on the men’s room wall”
Love the slut shaming, Ken. But you do know that lots of married women (not your wife, I’m sure) use birth control. If Fluke were married, one wonders if all those who revile sex before marriage would have been as upset cuz having sex with one’s husband is a religious obligation. Married women can’t be “sluts,” Right? And BTW, Rush has been married four times and no babies – but there was that trip to the Dominican Republic with a little Viagra in the luggage…
CC-
Rush’s apology is going to become invisible after Sarah Fluke goes up for perjury.
If it’s so moronic to let them live-even abused kids who turn out to be criminals-why didn’t you kill them when you were a social worker? Same solution to the problem.
“The sexual revolution has produced some very sexually aggressive women”
Well, I never, Oh, the horror, the horror. Pass me my fan cuz I’m having an attack of the vapors. Sexually aggressive women trying to style the precious purity of your young men. Oh, the horror…
“Rush’s apology is going to become invisible after Sarah Fluke goes up for perjury”
Perjury for what? She spoke before a congressional hearing, not a grand jury.
“why didn’t you kill them when you were a social worker? Same solution to the problem.”
Killing post born children is illegal. Abortion isn’t. My job was to place these children in a safe environment. Oh right, Child Protective Services should be stopping all women who want to have abortions. Right xalisae, like our laws remotely would allow us to do that. Only in your dreams. But do dream on and try to change the laws. Hopefully your state will have the funds to pay more social workers, more court personnel, and more facilities for housing these evil baby killing women.
When I first learned about it (I was around 9 or so) I was immediately repulsed by the idea. Then when I was eleven or twelve I actively sought to learn more about it, and Mom and Dad would have to hide anything referencing it from me because it would make me a little bawling baby like nothing else. But dangit, I had to KNOW about it, know about the how and the why would anyone do such a thing that, to a little kid like me, was one of the most horrible things I’d heard of.
Fluke’s testimony here:
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/16/testimony-chairman-issa-doesnt-want-you-to-hear
By my early teen years, I’d read so many books on the subject, (including one written by an abortion doctor.) Instead of becoming desensitized to it, I was just more adament than I had been when I was younger. However, around my late teen years, I was just sick of it, and went for a couple years refusing to think about it at all. Life went as normal.
Then that mandate thing brought me back to it. As sickened and agitated by it as ever.
”But dangit, I had to KNOW about it, know about the how and the why would anyone do such a thing that, to a little kid like me, was one of the most horrible things I’d heard of”
And coming from a neighborhood where the good Catholic women kept on breeding when they should have stopped, I realized, even when it was illegal, that it was a very good thing. Also, coming from a family where another child would have been devastating, I realized that it was a very good thing. And funny, lots of women who came of age with me, think the same thing – some of them from those large Catholic families. The Jewish girls in my neighborhood had mothers who were in the vanguard of women’s reproductive right and who helped Planned Parenthood establish itself in our state.
“Then that mandate thing brought me back to it. As sickened and agitated by it as ever.”
The mandate isn’t forcing any woman to use birth control or have abortions. BTW, there are many Catholic institutions that are already covering birth control. St. Francis College, in Brooklyn, even covers abortions. Oh, noo……
Unfortunately, I think on it more often than I’d like. For example, when I first saw this Vonage commercial, my first thought was not “funny/not funny.” It was, “People actually say that about actual children, and they do it all the time.” Every time the commercial runs, it hits me again a tiny bit and poisons any amusement I might have. Or when I was watching Amazing Grace, and one of the pro-slavery was talking about the economic cost of freeing the slaves and I just wanted to throw things, because so many pro-abortion people see where it goes wrong when talking about slaves but are utterly blind to their own prejudice and bigotry with regards to the unborn. CC is giving us a prime example a few posts up.
The trouble with recognizing something like this is that you can’t unsee it. And, yes, it would be irresponsible and wrong to try, but there’s always going to be a part of you that wishes you didn’t have to acknowledge just how broken our society really is to tolerate something like this. And since the only other way to need to stop acknowledging it is to change society, then you sigh and you go back to work.
Hey CC, killing born children might soon be legal. A woman in Canada got off for murdering her newborn because a judge cited legalized abortion.
Ethicists are now talking about how killing a newborn is no different than abortion and should be allowed.
So, killing born children is illegal NOW. Abortion was once illegal also. Whats your point? Times change. And abortion is bringing us down that slippery slope. If you can abort a 7 month old baby…why not kill him two months later after he is born?
MPQ, I like your 1:44 comment.
I don’t really think about abortion all the time or anything. Most of the time when I do think about it, it’s because I live and work in an area where people are overwhelmingly pro-choice as a default position, so people say things assuming I automatically agree.
Jill,
I know that it’s never far from our thoughts, but try to focus on the beauty of the place where you are and the people you are with. I used to scuba dive in Key West the first week of January every year in college. It’s necessary to walk away from our work for a time in order to recalibrate the lens of perspective.
I can think of few as deserving of vacation on that beautiful island as much as you.
Enjoy, and God Bless.
Janet says:
March 3, 2012 at 6:43 pm
In answer to Denise, as to my thoughts about Linda Lovelace. I have not seen any of the films including Deep Throat. I only heard about the movie. My guess is what happened to her is likely true. I base is strictly on what I have experienced in my professional career and what I know happens to women. One thing about a career in the nursing profession is you see the worst in people and the best in people. Those of us who have worked in the mental health field, ER, prison nursing have seen or heard of worst things that can ever happen. Most of us, in order to stand working in those fields put it out of our minds and focus on the best. For me real life has been stranger than fiction.
(Denise) When I first heard about Lovelace’s claims and the book in which she detailed them, “Ordeal,” I dismissed them out of hand. I believed the whole thing was a bunch of nonsense made up to wring money out of fools. It seemed like she had been not only a willing but an enthusiastic participant in porn. Like you, I haven’t actually seen “Deep Throat” or the prior “loops” but I’d seen pics from them in which she appears happy.
Since then, I’ve had to revise my opinion. I’ve read about other cases in which it is known for sure that someone was held captive for long periods. People can put on smiles when they are ordered to. Fear can leave them mute to protest and feeling helpless to flee.
I don’t know if Linda Lovelace was a victim or not but it is at least possible that she was.
Killing post born children is illegal.
CC,
Unless there’s an abortionist on a mission to kill.
It happens. Google it. St. Francis College in Brooklyn covers abortions? Well someone should look into that if they are supposed to be a Catholic School. Thanks, CC, for pointing that out.
“And coming from a neighborhood where the good Catholic women kept on breeding when they should have stopped“…
Very ‘prochoice’ of you, CC. LMAO.
Rush Limbaugh apologizes
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/
“For over 20 years, I have illustrated the absurd with absurdity, three hours a day, five days a week. In this instance, I chose the wrong words in my analogy of the situation. I did not mean a personal attack on Ms. Fluke.”
“My choice of words was not the best, and in the attempt to be humorous, I created a national stir. I sincerely apologize to Ms. Fluke for the insulting word choices.”
Wow!
Having successfully intimidated the SGK hierarchy, is ‘fear’ now stalking the halls of the Institute for Advanced Conservative Studies?
or did mrs. Limbaugh throw down a trump card?
Waiting for the other left shoe to fall.
Judge Roy Bean has offended the city fathers’ now respectable wives [All former prostitutes who worked in Bean’s saloon.] and they have ceased to receive their husbands affection until Bean personally apologizes to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2yAH-AhDmc
Miss Jill,
I stumbled upon your website while surfing the web and I will unashamedly confess that I am in love with it!
THANK YOU for being a voice for those who do not have one.
May God’s hand be upon you.
One Guy 2012
I could sometimes go a day or two or three without thinking about it unless a social injustice reared it’s ugly head. Then always “That’s just like what happens in abortion!” and I’ll be steamed and rant about it (sometimes audibly) all day, praying and praying for Jesus to get here NOW and end it all.
But now, now………………………. I will think about it every moment of everyday for the rest of my life :,( I just found out last night my brother is the father of two aborted babies and he feels guilty and condemned for his part in at least one of their murders (his word). God help him! I told him Jesus died for that too, but he feels beyond redemption. I found out why he has been drinking himself to death. PLEASE PRAY FOR HIM!!! He says he is too afraid to trust Jesus with what little he has left, and too prideful to accept God’s free gift of salvation without attempting to earn it first. PLEASE PLEASE PRAY FOR HIS HEART TO SOFTEN!!!
God, I am missing two nieces or nephews or one of each :(( Abortion stole them from my brother and from me. Their mothers…. God, pray for them too!!! No one will know in this world until the end what they were like, who they were, whether they would have lived to please or been independent and strong willed, what they’re favorite foods were, if they’d have liked Dinosaur Train or Dora the Explorer, If they had my brother’s platinum blonde hair or their mothers eyes…… :(( No, abortion and what it has stolen from this world will NEVER LEAVE MY MIND AGAIN FOR EVEN A MOMENT. >:”'(((
I’m reminded of abortion every time a natural disaster hits, like the terrible tornados this week, or a car accident happens, or a child dies of cancer, and then I’m reminded of the mothers of these victims who thought their babies would outlive them, but now they have to mourn them and then they are reminded of the baby they aborted or the years they spent on birth control because the “time wasn’t right yet to have a baby” and they’ll never get their babies back. It’s not fair.
It must be horrible for those mothers and fathers, and I pray for them. Abortion can affect a family for a lifetime, it’s not just an afternoon at the clinic.
****
The Christian Hippie,
I’m so sorry for your loss and will pray for you and your family. God bless.
I’m sorry, TheChristianHippie.
When you mentioned Dinosaur Train and Dora, I started bawling. Your care and compassion stand in stark contrast to CC’s lack thereof.
“Rush’s apology is going to become invisible after Sarah Fluke goes up for perjury.”
Her name is SANDRA. Not Sarah, not Susan, not slut. SANDRA.
Sheesh, you spend so much time humanizing zygotes you can’t even bother to humanize fully grown adult people who testify before a Congressional hearing. To you, she’s a “whore” and a “plant.” A uterus. An object.
“She’s already been exposed as a 30 year old white house plant.”
Her age is about as relevant to the discussion as her hairstyle. Shall we talk about that? As far as I can tell, she was more than perfectly qualified to give her testimony. You whiners only come across as jealous and bitter because you didn’t have the long-term foresight to have someone other than old Catholic kiddie diddlers represent you.
ARRRGHHH!!! I’ll never get away till it is illegal in the society I belong. Even at work I have a Choose Life hat and a 12 week fetus model on my desk at work for two years now.
I look at my kids and kids everywhere and think they deserve a better world than one where adults solve problems by killing the innocent girl and boy fetuses.
Abortion is a horrible, violent practice and it needs to end.
Anyone else notice how the trolls stick to tangential issues and random Catholic bashing?
Where did the core proabortion argument go? Out with the ultrasound.
Legal abortion is crumbling. Why else would some folks push contraception into election year politics? Talk about random.
Fluke wants us to fund her sex. Or as Rush phrased it, she wants us to pay her to have sex, which would make her a you-know-what. Rush wasn’t talking about EVERY woman who uses contraception, and the left knows it. But the left has never had any regard for truth or facts.
Also, I would like to know when King Obama is going to call Laura Ingraham and apologize for Ed Schultz calling her a slut, and call Michelle Malkin and apologize for Keith Olbermann calling her a “mashed up bag of meat”. Nevermind what has been said about Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin. What Rush said about Fluke is tame by comparison. The hypocrisy is really ridiculous.
Oh..I KNOW,Alice! I hate that commercial! I was just saying how much I hate it to my husband when I saw it again yesterday.
Jill,
I think about the murder of the defenseless and injustice given to the fatherless quite frequently…every time I read my Bible or listen to it on disc (and it doesn’t matter if it is old or new testament), God just happens to bring up a place in the text where He shows me that it is on HIS mind…
The hypocrites and haters turn a blind eye to the hurtful and hateful things they say. They only condemn things and people that are better then them in a jealous attempt to bring them down to their pathetic level.
Everything Rush said except for the S word was spot on. But he can be forgiven for a slip of the tongue. It has been said that when you wrestle with pigs (as does Rush everyday when he talks about the sick and perverted left) you get dirty and the pigs love it. Apparently this time some of the dirt rubbed off on him.
We conservatives and Christians expect more of ourselves than saying hurtful things. So when we do slip and fall the secularists are only too delighted to point it out because it is laughable to them. But that is the nature of our fallen world.
“Fluke wants us to fund her sex.”
No, Ms. Fluke would like the insurance plan that she pays a premium and deductible for to cover contraception. Honestly, only a lonely, pathetic freak would keep parroting Limbaugh’s delusional remarks even after he publicly apologized.
As a taxpayer, it’s about time that religious institutions stop swindling the public for money. This is a one-sided cash transfer; I do not benefit at all when MY money goes to sit in some gilded coffer.
why can’t the boyfriends and sperm depositors pick up the tab? why do we have to.?
Megen,
Are you going to open a Hospital? Run a food bank? Run a adoption service? Fund a CPC?
So presumably you’re a representative from the insurance company whose coverage plan Georgetown University exchanges with its staff and students for money and labor? Because that is the only conceivable way you, personally, might be paying for Sandra Fluke’s birth control.
Also, what a gross thing to say. Sperm depositor. That’s right, unless a woman is married, lies prone for her husband waiting to conceive that eighth child, then she must just be a huge whore. Gotcha.
Actually, Jasper, I volunteer for a community health center, funded entirely by grants and donations. My paycheck’s nonexistent, and I don’t get the chance to force my religious beliefs on anybody. This county would be better off if all social services were handed by secular institutions. Some people are motivated to be decent to others without claiming to hear voices from the sky.
I’m doing research on abortion, particularly those performed to address fetal disability, for a project. Hence, I think of abortion way more than I should, and it has not helped my psychological health at all.
Abortion is part of the horror of coming of age female. It’s only part. Babies found abandoned in dumpsters or strangled in toilets is also part of that horror. “The Girls Who Went Away” are part of that horror along with the homes for unwed mothers to which they fled. The old system of closed adoptions was part of that horror.
All of the horrors associated with problem pregnancies are part of the ugliness of growing up female as are eating disorders, self-mutilation and other mental disorders associated with it.
I’ve been ‘transported’ to the world of abortion, wherein I do think
about it all the time.
But I know this preoccupation to be an answer to prayer. See, I’ve
been diligently seeking to do God’s Will. And the more we draw close to
the Lord, the more we care about what He cares about.
collapsed cosmology says: March 3, 2012 at 7:02 pm
1. If Fluke were married, one wonders if all those who revile sex before marriage would have been as upset cuz having sex with one’s husband is a religious obligation.
2. Married women can’t be “sluts,” Right?
3. And BTW, Rush has been married four times and no babies – but there was that trip to the Dominican Republic with a little Viagra in the luggage…
===================================================================
1. We have no evidence that Fluke is or has been married? I am sure there are plenty of married folks who adhere to no religion that believe sex between spouses is an obligation but who are also sensilbe enough not to enforce the obligation.
2. Both married men and women can be ‘sluts’ and some are. Bill Clinton and John Edwards would be excellent examples.
3. Rush carries his own weight [which is considerably less than it used to be.], pays his own way, is NOT standing there with his hand out demanding that someone else pay for his recreational drugs. [Whether it be his oxycodone or his viagra.]
Evidently, Limbaugh now believes he spoke in haste, rushed to judgement, was imprudent, possibly made a mistake about Flukes character. [Kind of like mr. bo-jangles calling the police stupid when they arrested his friend, Henry Lewis Gates].
missy Fluke was not lobbying Georgtown or an insurance companny when she appeared before an adhoc gaggle of democRATs attempting to persuade them to use the force of FEDERAL law to require private institutions and/or businesses to provide a good or service which they have not chosen to do.
She was an articulate and well rehearsed spokesperson whose testimony was not subjected to any serious scrutiny by the democRATs on that ‘MOCK‘ committee because she was saying exactly what they wanted to hear. They might as well have been testifying to themselves. [You know, just like the servile sycophants when mr. bo-jangles moves his lips or his hips.]
When I have been shown to be wrong I have admitted my mistake, made my apologies, and paid the penalty.
But I for one am not willing to make an apology, concede a single point, or retract any comments about missy Fluke until I see her parents [who Fluke says are of a different political persuasion than she] are standing at her side saying how proud they are of their daughter.
If Fluke were my daughter or son and I was proud of her for what she had said or done, regardless of my political persuasion, and people were impugning her character, I would be rushing to her defense….if what they were saying was false.
We have not yet heard from Flukes fellow students at Georgetown rushing to her defense. Nor have we seen any media mob decending on Georgetown seeking missy Flukes colleagues.
If I were a journalist I would want to know if there were any truth to mr Limbaugh’s accusations because real journalists are interested in the truth for truths sake.
“Fluke wants us to fund her sex”
What a staggeringly stupid statement. ALL sex-based medicine benefits EVERYONE. You can object to insurance providers covering the pill because it supposedly “funds sex” but so does prenatal care, childbirth care, postpartum care, pediatric care, cervical cancer screening, well woman exams, STD testing, Viagra, IVF, and a myriad of other legitimate medical care that is ONLY the result of people having had sex.
What’s funny is that Christians and Catholics come up with sex-based medical issues, out of wedlock pregnancies, teen pregnancies, and other issues at the same rates as everyone else and use birth control at the same rates as everyone else. Your objections, sir, are patently absurd. Then again maybe you think women should die of cervical cancer if they can’t afford to pay out of pocket for pap smears, since cervical cancer is almost entirely the result of having been sexually active. In short, those advancing these idiotic arguments are simply horrible, hateful, ignorant people. It has been said that one should distrust all in whom the urge to punish is strong. That you think medical care should be withheld from other adults as a form of punishment for life choices that YOU disagree with in an effort to punish them certainly says a lot about you – let me assure you that an adult does not get to “punish” another adult via the medical care system or by withholding necessary medical care.
That said, consider what it means when a man refers to women in the exact same terms that a crack-smoking gang-banger would. “Whore” “slut” “prostitute” are not at all words that you hear from men who enjoy using their wives/girlfriends’ faces as a punching bag, are they? Just more evidence that the R party has been taken over by the abuser’s lobby (that and the defunding/decriminalization of domestic violence in certain R strongholds, but I digress). Stop using that terminology to describe women, it only makes you sound exactly like Gary Ridgway, who also had an obsession with “whores.” Maybe someone should take a look under Rush’s crawlspace.
http://info.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/02/10563035-andrea-mitchell-interviews-georgetown-law-student-sandra-fluke-moments-after-speaking-with-president-obama
ANDREA Mithcell: What have your parents said about it? What has your mom said about it all?
SANDRA Fluke: Well, they were certainly hurt by the comments but they are very proud of me. And they are actually of a different political persuasion than I am, so that is emblematic of the fact that broadly Americans agree that women need access to health care to prevent medical disasters and to prevent pregnancy. So they are very proud, they agree with that position, and yeah.
And of course Andrea Mitchell being a real journalist contacted the Mrs and Mr Fluke and verified that they were both very proud of their daughter before she aired missy Flukes assertions.
NOT
And then being a real journalists called the MSNBC affiliate closest to Georgetown and dispatche a trusted colleague to interview missy Flukes fellow students to provided a ‘fair and balanced’ portrayal of missy Flukes character.
NOT
Why who would question the virtue of this innocent doe eyed waif? [sarcasm]
If a person tells you something get two independent corroborations before you report it.
If your mother tells you something get three independent corroborations before you report it.
That is what real journalists do.
Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in one game and he claimed to have ‘scored’ with 10,000 women.
[It is unclear whether that figure incluldes women he ‘scored’ with more than once.]
Wilt Chamberlin was a whore and a slut.
We can verifty the 100 point game.
I wonder if we can get any of the 10,000 women to come forth and corroborate Wilt’s assertion.
I wonder if their parents will be proud of them when they do?
What’s funny is that Christians and Catholics come up with sex-based medical issues, out of wedlock pregnancies, teen pregnancies, and other issues at the same rates as everyone else and use birth control at the same rates as everyone else. Your objections, sir, are patently absurd.
Could be. We might lie and steal at the same rate, too. The difference is, is that our religion won’t condone it.
Well, the fact that your religion “doesn’t condone it” doesn’t seem to have made an iota of difference. Then again there is the fact that your religion failed to condemn sex with children – ask your clergy if I’m right about that one.
To defend the most vulnerable among us is without question a very noble cause and worthy of our fierce support. It is a deep passion that proceeds directly from the Heart of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think about it almost daily.
Another mission in my life to which I am emotionally invested is the salvation of men’s (and women’s) souls. Proverbe 15.11 says, “Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?”
I purpose to think, pray and work to save men’s souls every day.
i think about abortion every day. as long as innocent children are being killed every day …how could i not? yes of course you must carry on with life and what comes but i also think about babies who will never have a life. children who will be brutally murdered and the wounded mothers.
“This county would be better off if all social services were handed by secular institutions. Some people are motivated to be decent to others without claiming to hear voices from the sky.”
You’re a bigot. You think you self absorbed secular atheists are going to head up these charitable organizations?
yes ive watched Fluke and her plea for birth control. if miss Fluke is having sex with a man who loves her OR several men who care about her then let them pick up the tab for HER birth control. also she could always have them put on condoms or abstain ( heaven forbid ) put your studies first and dont have reckless sex until you can afford it. better yet….Miss Fluke its like smoking. if you cant afford to smoke then dont smoke. if you cant afford sex then dont have any until you can. its so simple.
would you ask someone else to flip your drinking or smoking habit bill? hahahaha not! if you cant afford sex without consequences then have none! worse yet i almost threw up when Id heard Obama called her. whaaaa? parts of the US need their entire communities rebuilt and Obamas calling Miss Fluke? yeah that was a priority…uh hu@@
“This county would be better off if all social services were handed by secular institutions. Some people are motivated to be decent to others without claiming to hear voices from the sky.”
You’re an asshole if you think that’s the only reason religious people help others. Ya, the only reason some religious go into war or famine zones and risk their lives is because they “hear voices” telling them too. Seriously, do you even know any Christians or atheists – or ANYBODY for that matter? Have you noticed a trend – that people who are nice and care about people do so, and that people who are selfish and mean just don’t? And when it comes to religious people – that people who are nice and care about others sometimes see that reflected in the teachings of their religion and so are more devoted to their beliefs? Did it ever occur to you that religious people, same as atheists, are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves?
Regarding the reaction of Georgetown’s School of Law to “Missy Fluke”
Statement Concerning Personal Attacks on our Student, Sandra Fluke
“The undersigned faculty members, administrators and students of Georgetown University Law Center and other law schools strongly condemn the recent personal attacks on our student, Sandra Fluke. Ms. Fluke has had the courage to publicly defend and advocate for her beliefs about an important issue of widespread concern. She has done so with passion and intelligence. And she has been rewarded with the basest sort of name-calling and vilification, words that aim only to belittle and intimidate. As scholars and teachers who aim to train public-spirited lawyers, no matter what their politics, to engage intelligently and meaningfully with the world, we abhor these attacks on Ms. Fluke and applaud her strength and grace in the face of them.”
There are several hundred signatures.
The President of Georgetown, John DeGioia also issued a statement:
“In recent days, a law student of Georgetown, Sandra Fluke, offered her testimony regarding the proposed regulations by the Department of Health and Human Services before a group of members of Congress. She was respectful, sincere, and spoke with conviction. She provided a model of civil discourse. This expression of conscience was in the tradition of the deepest values we share as a people. One need not agree with her substantive position to support her right to respectful free expression. And yet, some of those who disagreed with her position – including Rush Limbaugh and commentators throughout the blogosphere and in various other media channels – responded with behavior that can only be described as misogynistic, vitriolic, and a misrepresentation of the position of our student.”
And according to “The Hoya,” “Tanisha Humphrey (SFS ’12), the outreach coordinator for H*yas for Choice, hopes that the attention paid to Fluke will help bring the contraception coverage issue to the forefront for students.”
thanks DB2 amen to that!
“would you ask someone else to flip your drinking or smoking habit bill? hahahaha not! if you cant afford sex without consequences then have none!”
As a nurse, you do realize, don’t you, that birth control pills are used to treat a variety of pathologies. If a woman has ovarian cancer, double doses are used during chemotherapy.
Insurance companies have already gone on record to say that covering the cost of contraception is much cheaper than covering the cost of childbirth. It also works for the employer as unplanned pregnancies are costly in terms of readjusting workload and possible hiring temporary substitutes. As HHS defines it, it is, along with the other provisions of the policy, preventative care. Do you also get laugh over well women visits, STD testing, and cancer screenings? If you are, as you claim, a nurse (who has lots of time to blog on this site), then you really should be concerned about women’s health. Right?
And Viagra, which isn’t vital to men’s health, is covered by insurance policies some of them used by religious entities. Do you think that’s fair? And how fair is it for women, many of them non Catholic, who work for religious entities (but not technically religious otherwise they’d be getting no federal payments) to have to pay for contraception when women working in secular entities don’t have to?
That the religious, “pro-life” community is obsessed about “sex with no consequences,” says volumes about the psychology of the “pro-life” movement and those who are part of it. It’s all about the sex, isn’t it? And for those who can’t access birth control and who end up pregnant, there will be no abortions for those women who want to terminate their pregnancy. It’s all about punishing women who dare to be sexual beyond the medieval mores of the “pro-life” movement. The misogyny, as demonstrated by the invective (much of it from “pro-life” men) directed towards Ms. Fluke, is amazing. Remind me what century we’re living in!
cc lol she had courage? haha to do what? ask for a hand out? let her boyfriend(s) pay for her birth control if they love her so. btw she failed to mention stds….birth control wont prevent those. does she want us to pay for women who contract stds after we pay for their birth control?
yes but cc i didnt see Fluke asking for her birth control for any condition other then her need for sex. im sure shes quite smart but lets face it….most women do use birth control to prevent pregnancy. Like medical Mary Jane can be used for many medical conditions…….but i would say that most people smoke it to get high and for their own pleasure.
DolceBella2 says: March 4, 2012 at 11:51 am
“You’re an a$$hole”…
===================================================================
DB2,
Is is it permissable to use the term ‘a$$hole’ in polite conversation?
Maybe an anal-ogy would be more advisable.
For example:
What is 12 inches long and hangs in front of the terminus of an alimentary canal?
mr. bo-jangles tie!
[Put the Viagra down Barny Frank, no stereotypes or symbology implied or intended.]
CC,
As you well know, that’s quite the misrepresentation of the Pro-Life movement, and I speak for not only myself, but several others here.
Just because I think that nobody FORCED Ms. Fluke to attend Georgetown (she could’ve gone somewhere secular if her personal convictions were not aligned with the institution. The institution should not have to capitulate to the individual), she has a perfectly legal right to purchase any contraceptive provisions she might need on her own dime, nobody is obstructing her from doing so, and I respect the 1st Amendment, does not mean I have any problem with sex.
“As scholars and teachers who aim to train public-spirited lawyers, no matter what their politics”
Well, there’s your problem. They need to start being a little less eager to take just anybody’s money. As long as the Church (that I grew up in and respect, even if I no longer agree with all the teachings or consider myself a member) sees $$ first and people second, they’re going to continue letting those who would wish to destroy them in through the front door, welcoming them with open arms. I think everyone involved in this case should be a little more discriminating in their actions.
“yes but cc i didnt see Fluke asking for her birth control for any condition other then her need for sex.”
Fluke did not reference herself at any point in the testimony. Here it is. Please show me where she talked about “her need for sex.” And Nota Bene that the woman, whom she specifically mentioned, needed the birth control for polysystic ovary disease – a woman who is a lesbian.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/16/testimony-chairman-issa-doesnt-want-you-to-hear
Fluke lied under oath about her age, but her age isn’t ‘relevant to the discussion.’ Hilarious. Only from the demented minds of moonbats. If a prolifer pulled half the crap Fluke has, there’d be no end to the proabort shrieking. Comedy gold. I’m sure middle america can like totally relate to a 30 year old paid activist on an Obama law grant sticking her hand out for freebies. Unemployed folks desperate to feed their kids pale in comparison to the birth control/sexual needs of a phony co-ed. Liberal priorities are quite clear, and we’ll remember at the voting booth.
http://moronicprochoicequotes.blogspot.com/2012/03/deconstructing-sandra-fluke.html
Carbon Copier
And according to “The Hoya,” “Tanisha Humphrey (SFS ’12), the outreach coordinator for H*yas for Choice, hopes that the attention paid to Fluke will help bring the contraception coverage issue to the forefront for students.”
Now there is a objective and impartial observer if I have ever seen one.
NOT
“As scholars and teachers who aim to train public-spirited lawyers, no matter what their politics, to engage intelligently and meaningfully with the world, we abhor these attacks on Ms. Fluke and applaud her strength and grace in the face of them.”
There is no substitute for live fire to when preparing warriors for battle.
When ms Fluke finally hears the ‘pop’ and defects from the progressive plantation, then she will be well prepared for the not so friendly fire from her former comrades.
I too applaud missy Flukes composure. But it helps when the main stream media is holding your hand and soothing your knitted brow, not to mention mr. bo-jangles.
A few hundred signatures on a petition from a liberal bastion of higher education do not impress me any more than the ‘Hoya for Choice’ gal.
It’s a good thing Limbaugh did NOT refer to missy Fluke as a ’nappy headed Hoya’.
There wood have broken windows and burning police cars in Gerogetown.
We have witnessed this bit of gorilla theatre and crocodile tears before.
Anita Hill.
A bunch of hysterical hens pounding of the doors of a senate hearing room screaming sexual harassment!
Mean old white republican males picking on a poor black lass.
Clarence Thomas cowering democRAT senators when he calls them out for the attempted high tech lynching of a conservative black man.
Yes, missy Fluke will be well pre-pared for combat in ‘public law’.
Ken,
Of course she will. She’s got the victim feminist act downpat. Po me, I’z only 30 and I gots to pay for my own bc? Waaaaaaaahhhh. Far more pressing than trillions in national debt.
Ah, been busy but checked in long enough to catch cc’s backhanded insult to sexually active women. Ladies, if you’re having sex, cc won’t exactly call you a slut, but she will call you “producer of criminals”. Observe:
when you ride by prisons, do you mourn the number of inmates who would be there if they weren’t aborted? Hate to break it to ya but not all aborted fetuses would be law abiding citizens.
While cc was busy commenting here, one of her fetus’ got away. One’s alive despite your efforts. I just met her mom.
“There are several hundred signatures. The President of Georgetown, John DeGioia also issued a ..
Georgetown has long known to be Catholic in name only, after all, it is run by a bunch of queers (Jesuits). Ms. Fluke is actually 30 yrs as well, a veteran femanazi..shes had her time around the block, typical democrat, then she gets a call from Obama, whats he trying to do? score a white girl? I bet she be happy to oblige.
Rush got bit by his own dogs: Capitalism and the free market.
Perception is bigger than reality when it comes to selling your widget.
Those who market to the masses are a skittish lot.
You have to hand it to the ‘dead babies r us’ crowd.
They have successfully interfaced 20th century Saul Alinsky tactics with 21st century technology and used it to fabricate a facade of public outrage among consumers.
This is a replay of the SGK v PP smackdown.
I look fro missy Fluke to become a cloistered nun in the near future insulated from the prying eyes of the alternative media.
The closet where her and Jimmy Hoffa’s skeleton are hidden will be boarded over and bricked up. Even Geraldo Rivera will never find it, much less gain entry.
Her boyfriends/girlfriends will do well to zip their lips or they can kiss their a$$pirations bye bye or find themselves secuestered on the same African island as mr. bo-jangle ex-boyfriends/girl friends.
“Fluke lied under oath about her age, but her age isn’t ‘relevant to the discussion”
Her age ISN’T relevant to the discussion. She never said one word about her age and from what I can tell, neither did Pelosi
http://pelosi.house.gov/news/press-releases/2012/02/pelosi-house-democratic-steering-and-policy-committee-hearing-on-womens-health.shtml
or anyone else. So perhaps you got the number “23” from the number of abortions had by Republican presidential candidate’s wives?
Here is a transcript of SANDRA’s testimony. Read it.
http://www.whatthefolly.com/2012/02/23/transcript-sandra-fluke-testifies-on-why-women-should-be-allowed-access-to-contraception-and-reproductive-health-care/
You WISH you could pass for 7 years younger than you are. What a collection of bitter old hags. Keep reaching, pathetic losers – keep trying to vilify women in an attempt to get them to shut up and shuffle on back to the kitchen.
“Just because I think that nobody FORCED Ms. Fluke to attend Georgetown (she could’ve gone somewhere secular if her personal convictions were not aligned with the institution.”
Women should not have to compromise on the quality of their education or their educational goals simply because they are women.
“cc won’t exactly call you a slut, but she will call you “producer of criminals”. “
We assume that criminals all had mothers and were birthed by a woman at some point and not beamed down from space. So your point is…?
law1204 says: March 4, 2012 at 1:26 pm
“What a collection of bitter old hags. Keep reaching, pathetic losers – keep trying to vilify women in an attempt to get them to shut up and shuffle on back to the kitchen.”
==================================================================
Dear law1204,
aka ‘bitter young hag’
Your comments are dripping with milk and honey of maternal lovingkindness.
How fortunate you are.
You don’t have buy a costume at halloween.
ps:You forgot to throw in being ‘barefoot and pregnant’.
Better review your talking points when you take your next potty break.
“Your comments are dripping with milk and honey of maternal lovingkindness.”
Well, that would be odd since I don’t have a maternal bone anywhere in my body and anyone who thinks that critical healthcare should be treated like the purchase of a new Lexus does not deserve “lovingkindness,” at least, not from me.
law1204 says: March 4, 2012 at 1:29 pm
“Her age ISN’T relevant to the discussion.”
You finally made one correct observation.
It probably wasn’t included in your talking points.
Never an apology from libs when Laura Ingraham was called a slut. Never an apology from libs when they called Sarah Palin a cunt and Trig Palin ‘mommy’s little tard.’ Never an apology from libs for the comment about Palin being the slutty stewardess type, but our hearts are supposed to bleed for a 30 year old grown woman who can’t cough up 9 bucks at Walmart for bc, an Obama manufactured product. Keep babbling, law and cc. Egg is definitely your color.
‘Bitter old hags’ and ‘breeders’ – very prowoman. Mark of true feminists. Back later-my fluke itches.
law1204 says: March 4, 2012 at 1:43 pm
“Well, that would be odd since I don’t have a maternal bone anywhere in my body and anyone who thinks that critical healthcare should be treated like the purchase of a new Lexus does not deserve “lovingkindness,” at least, not from me.”
That does not surprise me I would have guessed you were the first surviving donor in a heart transplant surgery.
I also would have figured you for a Prius owner.
A Lexus would be environmentally irresponsible, not to mention the crass materialistism.
With the money you saved you could have purchased birth control pills for a year for your whole graduating class.
“Never an apology from libs when Laura Ingraham was called a slut. Never an apology from libs when they called Sarah Palin a cunt and Trig Palin ‘mommy’s little tard.’”
I don’t remember any of the above being subjected to a sustained, multi-day attack on the entire blogosphere or by people who are for all intents and purposes official mouthpieces of a political party as Rush is. As far as Sarah Palin goes, she herself uses her child as a political football, though I myself prefer just to call a hypocrite a hypocrite.
“Never an apology from libs for the comment about Palin being the slutty stewardess type,”
Um, isn’t she the one who deliberately branded herself a “conservative sex symbol” and her idiot base responded with stupidity like “Hoosiers for the Hot Chick?” How quickly you geniuses forget.
but our hearts are supposed to bleed for a 30 year old grown woman who can’t cough up 9 bucks at Walmart for bc,
BC only costs $9 at Wal-Mart IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE already. Insurance that will actually cover BC, which is what this debate is about. That said, some women cannot tolerate some brands and need to take other brands that do not offer a generic. That decision is covered under HIPAA and is not your affair. Sheesh, you should chuck it all and start your own think tank.
” Egg is definitely your color.”
Crow-black is very slimming, ask Rush.
Megan says:
“Fluke wants us to fund her sex.”
No, Ms. Fluke would like the insurance plan that she pays a premium and deductible for to cover contraception.
Honestly, Megan, do you really believe that? The whole idea of her testifying was to promote the fiction that women should be eligible for “free” contraception without regard to how the provider of the “free” contraception is compensated for their costs to provide “free” contraceptives.
There are two main problems here. Sorry to inform you, but there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Second, whether the individual pays premiums or if the company she works for pays the premiums that cover “free” birth control, it is in fact not free. Someone, somewhere is paying for it. You seem to subscribe to the false notion that was trotted out by the Contraceptor-in -Chief that by forcing the insurance carriers to provide contraception and sterilization at no cost to the insured that this somehow absolves the institution of reimbursing the insurer the costs to provide those products.
If anyone out there believes that there is such a thing as a free contraceptive do keep your day job and have someone who is accredited and licensed do your taxes.
“Never an apology from libs when Laura Ingraham was called a slut. Never an apology from libs when they called Sarah Palin a cunt and Trig Palin ‘mommy’s little tard.’”
Boo hoo. As if calling public figures with a history of saying and doing outrageous things to draw attention to themselves mean names is totally the same thing as a radio host with an audience of millions maliciously singling out a college student in an attempt to undermine her cause.
“Po me, I’z only 30 and I gots to pay for my own bc? Waaaaaaaahhhh. Far more pressing than trillions in national debt.”
46.9% of women ages 16 and over are currently employed. Women’s labor is essential for keeping this economy afloat. For somebody ostensibly concerned about the “trillions in national debt,” no-copay birth control should be a small price to pay to keep women in the workforce. And by “price to pay,” I mean a price shared by consumers of a particular healthcare plan, a price that will ultimately be much lower than the cost of an unwanted pregnancy. We’re not talking about forcing “the taxpayer” to pass out IUDs on the street; we’re talking about including something in a package of services for which consumers pay premiums and deductibles. Get your facts straight.
Also, the Institute of Medicine states that contraception is an integral part of healthcare for women of reproductive ages. That’s some real science, not spurious anti-choice mumbo-jumbo.
“That does not surprise me I would have guessed you were the first surviving donor in a heart transplant surgery.”
Since you believe you have a heart and believe that I don’t, your heart attack surgery should be paid for out of pocket by you since I certainly don’t think I should have to. You should have had the salad instead of the cheeseburger!
“Ms. Fluke is actually 30 yrs as well, a veteran femanazi..shes had her time around the block, typical democrat, then she gets a call from Obama, whats he trying to do? score a white girl? I bet she be happy to oblige.”
^Case in point why the government shouldn’t appropriate one cent to religious institutions to run social service programs. We can cure you of all that’s feminist, queer or contrary in any way to our rigid ideology–would you like an exorcism with that bowl of soup???
“Second, whether the individual pays premiums or if the company she works for pays the premiums that cover “free” birth control, it is in fact not free.”
Right, it’s not free. She purchases insurance through her school. In other words, just like every other service or product covered by her student insurance plan, she will be paying for it. Not the mentally ill, borderline illiterates ranting on conservative blogs about being forced to pay for evil sluts to have sex.
I see. So Sarah Palin was asking for it when you all called her a slut, and it was ok for Bill Maher to call Ingraham a slut to his millions of listeners and not apologize, that’s totally different. Fluke has insurance-we all became insurance companies the minute obamacare was signed into law. But, hey, we can’t expect 30 year old grown women to act like grown women and pay for their own like actual grown women do-as women we’re just downtrodden victims. Yeah, that’s truly fierce feminist empowerment. ‘I can do anything as long as someone else does it for me.’ The most pathetic part of all this is that over half of unintended pregnancies are from incorrect use of bc. Maybe one you empowered feminists here can go before Pelosi and ask for a nanny-state nanny to move in with you and remind you to take your pill every day-ya know, since it’s so essential to your health and all. Thanks, fools for proving all my points here today. If you’re too lazy to even take the damn pill half the time, I certainly don’t feel obligated to fund your stupidity. Have a nice day.
“I see. So Sarah Palin was asking for it when you all called her a slut, and it was ok for Bill Maher to call Ingraham a slut to his millions of listeners and not apologize, that’s totally different.”
Yes, it is different. They have a national media platform. They can easily defend themselves against scurrilous attacks and fight back. A college student can’t.
“But, hey, we can’t expect 30 year old grown women to act like grown women and pay for their own like actual grown women do-as women we’re just downtrodden victims.”
You don’t seem to grasp how insurance works. It isn’t charity. Sandra Fluke pays a monthly premium to her school for insurance coverage, plus any deductibles that apply. She wants that insurance to include a particular service or product. Therefore, if her insurance does begin to cover those things, she is not receiving them for free, she is paying for them.
Fluke lied under oath about her age
And if you’re not lying, I’m sure you’ll have no trouble providing a link to her perjured testimony.
Fluke can afford $60000 a year in tuition, but can’t manage to get to the local PP (23 of them in her area) for some of that free/low cost bc choice nazis are always crowing about-no, it’s up to the poor to pay for it. Liberal definition of courage: stick your begging hand out and then attack those less fortunate when they won’t cough up the cash. SMH.
“I see. So Sarah Palin was asking for it when you all called her a slut”
Tucker Carlson called her a MILF. Is that somehow preferable?
“and it was ok for Bill Maher to call Ingraham a slut”
Considering that Ingraham is herself a champion of abusive language and that she’s a racist, homophobic harpy, you might find yourself less offended if you read the 1-star reviews of her book “the Obama Diaries” on Amazon.
“But, hey, we can’t expect 30 year old grown women to act like grown women and pay for their own”
If insurance companies cannot be relied on to provide medical care, why is it an expectation that it should cover YOUR issues? Why don’t you grow up and pay your own way? How many of your pregnancies were covered by insurance which OTHERS in your plan were forced to pay for?
Yeah, sure its different. As long as it’s a conservative being called names. None of you had the class to apologize. Not surprised. Enjoy your hypocrisy-I’m off to spend time with my family, none of whom are cats.
How often do I think about abortion? Bunches!!! Think and pray!!!
Saw this:
http://tinyurl.com/7j6s5hg
Obama Risks $100 Billion If Catholic Hospitals Close
Bishops May Close Facilities Rather than Bend to Contraception Dictate
“may want to read St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and his Principle and Foundation of faith ( http://tinyurl.com/94xg5 ), which informs Catholics on the priority of salvation. The first task of mankind, according to St. Ignatius, is to serve God and “save his soul,” and “other things on the face of the earth” should be used only as long as they serve that purpose. When they become a hindrance to salvation, St. Ignatius warns to “rid himself of them.”
If Obama insists on forcing the Catholic Church to fund and facilitate access to products and services they believe imperil their own souls and those of others, the bishops will simply stop employing people in these religious organizations – and once those doors close, they may never reopen.”
St. Ignatius, founder of the Jesuit order, please bring order to your order. Whatever it takes to bring them back to defending Jesus and His Church is what I ask in Jesus’ Name. I pray to save their souls, the souls of those being lead astray and the lives of all babies.
“Fluke can afford $60000 a year in tuition”
It’s called a student loan, you twit. She’ll graduate law school with a crushing load of student debt. Law students are not allowed to work the first year and only a severely limited number of hours after that.
“but can’t manage to get to the local PP”
WAAAAAAAAAAIT a minute here, are you now referring college women to the same PP that Jill Stanek, Lila Rose, and your other heroes spend years of their lives vilifying, attacking, and petitoning to be defunded? I haven’t been here that long and in the last two months a significant number of blog posts here on this forum have been *specifically* about the evils of PP. And yet now, instead of expecting the insurance that THEY PAY FOR to cover their contraception, you want to refer them to a defunded entity that can not afford to treat the overflow?
Like, OMG. Could you be a worse person, MPQ?
“Yeah, sure its different. As long as it’s a conservative being called names.”
Name ONE conservative private citizen that was subject to a SUSTAINED, multi-day attack by national radio hosts that are mouthpieces of the D party and by the entire Democrat blogosphere. One.
Megan,
Tired of trying to outrun the killing of your baby? It’s Lent, which is a pretty good time to come home and experience God’s unconditional Love and Mercy. You’re starting to look as deformed as CC. You both need to come home.
“I’m off to spend time with my family, none of whom are cats.”
That explains a lot. Serial killers hate animals too.
Andrew Breitbart. And PP has been defunded? Great news!
The trolls have been reduced to ad hominem attacks. My work here is done :) you may now turn on/eat each other, you noH8 tolerant libs. Enjoy your fail.
My work here is done
So you’re saying that no, you can’t back up your claim that Ms. Fluke lied under oath?
If it’d make you feel better, law, you can pretend that instead of PP they said “local county health center”, since they do WAY fewer abortions than PP, and it’s not like if PP gets defunded, women will be dying in the streets and have no access to ACTUAL reproductive health services.
““but can’t manage to get to the local PP”
BTW before I forget, all told there are approximately 10,000 women (that’s students, staff, and other faculty) associated with Georgetown University (many of whom are Catholics). That’s 10,000 extra people that PP must take care of including the low-income women already residing in the entire DC Metro area. Would you like to propose how two DC metro facilities are supposed to take care of that many patients and where the extra money should come from if they now have to cover all of Georgetown’s women on top of what they already do?
Or, since these women are long out of the womb and thus no longer worthy of consideration, can they just go die of cancer somewhere for the sin of being both poor and sexually active so you can feel morally superior? Keep in mind that “rugged individualism” is a very expensive ideology when you realize that you yourself are obligated to live under it too, and when your ER bill comes due to the tune of $75,000 you don’t have, don’t expect your fellow Americans to pay one thin cent to help you, rather you get to endure a lecture about paying your own way and how immature you are.
Quiz time, Christocrats:
Mark 5
And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. 33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. 34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
1. How much did Jesus charge this woman?
2. How many people did she sleep with?
“The trolls have been reduced to ad hominem attacks.”
Hey, at least we didn’t call you a slut.
“My work here is done”
But the question is, did you at least break a sweat?
“If it’d make you feel better, law, you can pretend that instead of PP they said “local county health center”,”
Perhaps you would like to explain how the county healthcenters, which ARE funded by taxpayers, are supposed to handle the increased workload and how non-employed law students are supposed to pay for the extra care on top of the limited-coverage insurance they already pay for, since a visit to the county healthcenter is not free?
You may as well say, “Well, why don’t they just go on Medicaid!” I thought conservatives were supposed to be for smaller government and were against welfare. Now somehow putting female law students on the dole, and thus guaranteeing that John Q. Taxpayer funds their pills and other birth control, rather than their private insurance network that you have a choice not to also be a part of, is preferable?
This is an absolutely insane line of thinking. If health plans didn’t cover medical expenses incurred from certain lifestyle choices, then they’d be useless. Gone are the days when infectious diseases are our primary public health concerns. The percentage of my premium that goes toward birth control is a mere fraction of what it costs to pay for somebody’s diabetes medication. How is it MY fault that Joe Schmo couldn’t hold back from drinking all that pop? Why can’t he be a big boy and deal with the consequences of a crappy diet?
It is to me.
1.) They’re in law school. I hope to god they’re going to be eventually getting out and taking care of themselves. I have no qualms with temporary government assistance if it’s truly needed.
2.) Since this a question of freedom of religion, and the freedom of religious institutions to follow their own principles, I have less of a problem using money from individuals to contribute to that than forcing a religious institution to violate their tradition blatantly to pay for it.
Any other questions, or would you like to just continue to intentionally misconstrue my position a little more?
“Since this a question of freedom of religion, and the freedom of religious institutions to follow their own principles, I have less of a problem using money from individuals to contribute to that than forcing a religious institution to violate their tradition blatantly to pay for it.”
The “I object on religious principles” argument is patent horse s***. Obama knows it and so does everyone else. What a manufactured lie.
There is nothing morally objectionable about birth control pills (especially when they are taken for off label purposes and that their use otherwise is covered under privacy law so that the church wouldn’t have a clue as to how they’re being used in any given case) that is not equally objectionable about pap smears. And yet how “religiously principled” do you have to be to allow a woman to die of cancer because you object to having to pay for sex-based healthcare? You would think that conservadolts and their Catholic cohorts would at least have stayed on task of objecting to the pill on the basis of it being an “abortifacient” (it’s not) but then that wouldn’t require the entire party to start foaming at the mouth about “whores,” and having to “pay for Sandra to have sex” revealing that they couldn’t care less about abortion, they only care about goin’ on a sluthunt and that their objection to the pill is about denigrating women, even Catholic and conservative ones. Nice job, idiots. November is right around the corner.
You may think that atheists, agnostics, muslims, hindus, etc don’t understand the deeply hidden Christian/Catholic ideals enough to accept that they should be considered untouchable on first amendment grounds, but let me divest you of your illusions. We understand you kooks better than you understand yourselves. Obama understands how infested the religious right is with pure, unadulterated hatred, insanity, and misogyny far, far better than I ever could have expected. He knew it was there and coaxed it out into the daylight, Republicans idiotically KEPT it there, thus guaranteeing the president a second term and the Republicans loss of seats in Congress.
Your religion has no place in medical care decisions, or in questions of what insurance plans cover. It belongs in church and that is all. If religionists want to start having a say over business plans, economics, and medical care, they need to start paying taxes.
You certainly are barking up the wrong tree, madam.
How many times do I have to tell people that I AM NOT RELIGIOUS? It is seriously starting to irk me.
I DO NOT OPPOSE BIRTH CONTROL. I’VE USED IT IN THE PAST. I HAVE ZERO QUALMS WITH ITS USE. However, I do enjoy the 1st Amendment, and that is the ONLY reason I oppose the mandate. THERE IS NO OTHER REASON I OPPOSE THE MANDATE. Because, if the government can tell a religious institution what to do, the government can tell a non-religious person what to do religiously. They intersect, and I happen to enjoy my freedoms enough to want to protect the freedoms of other people.
All your railing about this being “*expletive deleted*” is for naught, honey, because you’re talking to someone who PRIDES herself on being a secularist.
By the way, WTF kinda s*** were you smoking when you seem to have dreamed up something about Catholics opposing pap smears?
Law1204 wrote:
“BTW before I forget, all told there are approximately 10,000 women (that’s students, staff, and other faculty) associated with Georgetown University (many of whom are Catholics). That’s 10,000 extra people that PP must take care of including the low-income women already residing in the entire DC Metro area. Would you like to propose how two DC metro facilities are supposed to take care of that many patients and where the extra money should come from if they now have to cover all of Georgetown’s women on top of what they already do?”
That is making a broad and sweeping assumption that not a single of those individuals associated with Georgetown University already has a provider, either private or through a health care system.
“Keep in mind that “rugged individualism” is a very expensive ideology when you realize that you yourself are obligated to live under it too, and when your ER bill comes due to the tune of $75,000 you don’t have, don’t expect your fellow Americans to pay one thin cent to help you, rather you get to endure a lecture about paying your own way and how immature you are.”
*Ahem* 6 yrs ago, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I had two medical emergencies in a 5 month period, without health insurance, which resulted in $25000 of hospital bills (emergency room & intensive care unit), while I was working a minum wage job & living with family. Yeah, it took 2 yrs, but I managed to pay it.
“Because, if the government can tell a religious institution what to do, the government can tell a non-religious person what to do religiously.”
So if the government requires religious institutions to adhere to zoning regulations or drug laws, then it can force non-religious people to attend church thrice weekly. Okay.
History is a b****, joan. See: Church of England.
“However, I do enjoy the 1st Amendment, and that is the ONLY reason I oppose the mandate.”
The mandate has nothing to do with the first amendment. Just because the Catholic juggernaut whines about it’s supposed first amendment rights does not mean any rights were *actually* violated. Religionists think that their “rights” include watching people die hideous deaths from disease and starvation for entertainment purposes. Go back and reread what I said: The church’s objection to the mandate on “religious principles” and “freedom” is a bunch of complete and utter nonsense.
law1204 says: March 4, 2012 at 3:33 pm
1. How much did Jesus charge this woman?
2. How many people did she sleep with?
===============================================================
1. For what would Jesus demand payment?
Mark 5:30-34 30 And Jesus, recognizing in Himself that the power [dunamis] proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around immediately in the crowd and said, Who touched My clothes?
33 But the woman, knowing what had been done for her, though alarmed and frightened and trembling, fell down before Him and told Him the whole truth.
[Just deal with it you feministas. Later 1000 armed soldiers fell before Him. Like Shiphra and Pua, ”Having bowed before great power, they would not be tempted to bow before great show.”]
34 And He said to her, Daughter, your faith (your trust and confidence in Me, springing from faith in God) has restored you to health. Go in(into) peace and be continually healed and freed from your [distressing bodily] disease. AMP
Why would Jesus demand payment? It was her faith that made her whole.
Looks like Jesus provided something, but as it is written;
Matt 10:7-10 7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand!
8 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely (without pay) you have received, freely (without charge) give.
9 Take no gold nor silver nor [even] copper money in your purses (belts);
10 And do not take a provision bag or a wallet for a collection bag for your journey, nor two undergarments, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the workman deserves his support (his living, his food). AMP
Later on Jesus amended those instructions:
Luke 22:35-36 35 And He said to them, When I sent you out with no purse or [provision] bag or sandals, did you lack anything? They answered, Nothing!
36 Then He said to them, But now let him who has a purse take it, and also [his provision] bag; and let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy a sword. AMP
2. If the answer to that question is important to you I suggest you ask Jesus?
James 1:5-8 5 If any of you is deficient in wisdom , let him ask of the giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him.
6 Only it must be in faith that he asks with no wavering (no hesitating, no doubting). For the one who wavers (hesitates, doubts) is like the billowing surge out at sea that is blown hither and thither and tossed by the wind.
7 For truly, let not such a person imagine that he will receive anything [he asks for] from the Lord,
8[For being as he is] a man of two minds (hesitating, dubious, irresolute), [he is] unstable and unreliable and uncertain about everything [he thinks, feels, decides]. AMP
Where did the comment go about regretting giving women the vote? That was a good one.
“That is making a broad and sweeping assumption that not a single of those individuals associated with Georgetown University already has a provider”
This is not about whether they have an insurance provider. It is about whether healthcare insurance providers should actually cover healthcare. If insurance providers can’t be expected to actually insure anyone, and women must resort to taxpayer-funded clinics to keep their ovaries from exploding even after they’ve paid for insurance they can’t use, then why have health insurance at all?
Again, law students can’t work their first year if they are in an accredited law school and only a few hours after first year. AFTER they graduate with staggering debt loans, they should then be expected to pay staggering out of pocket medical bills as well? I guess Romney and Gingrich and their followers really AREN’T concerned about poverty.
See, apparently the churches think that the “first amendment” somehow includes the right to unravel every foundation of society, the concept of shared risk to avoid poverty, and the idea that people wouldn’t end up in staggering debt because they got sick and were poor to start with.
“I had two medical emergencies in a 5 month period, without health insurance, which resulted in $25000 of hospital bills (emergency room & intensive care unit), while I was working a minum wage job & living with family. Yeah, it took 2 yrs, but I managed to pay it.”
This is why we have health insurance.
“By the way, WTF kinda s*** were you smoking when you seem to have dreamed up something about Catholics opposing pap smears?”
HA, the fact that they DON’T is exactly why their behavior lately is nothing more than posturing. Feel free to read for content.
BTW before I forget, all told there are approximately 10,000 women (that’s students, staff, and other faculty) associated with Georgetown University (many of whom are Catholics).
Georgetown staff and faculty are not going to end up in a public clinic because Georgetown already includes contraception in its coverage plan for those individuals. Like most employers, it contributes to that plan, so the university is already “subsidizing” their contraception. Contraception is only not included in the student plan, to which the University makes no contribution.
That’s the information from Ms. Fluke’s testimony, anyway, which NO ONE from Georgetown has contested. No one seems to have challenged the accuracy of Ms. Fluke’s testimony other than a pro-lifer who fled when asked to substantiate her allegations.
law1024,
I am assuming by your moniker that you know something about law? Why, legally, does the federal the government have the authority to mandate ALL policies offered by insurance companies cover free contraception? Why not let some carry policies that do and some carry policies that don’t? And maybe some could carry both types of policies. Maybe it would help if you look at it from an issue other than contraception. Why should the government mandate EVERY policy sold must carry a no lifetime cap? What if I prefer a policy with a million dollar lifetime cap cause it would save me several hundred dollars a month, shouldn’t I be able to buy one?
I wonder how many babies have been aborted while pro-lifers are busy doing some very non-Christian vilifying of a law student, while still knowing absolutely nothing about her personal life. And even if you did know that Fluke was “promiscuous”, I still dont see how some supporting some POS like Rush to the detriment of the movement is justified. So yeah, priorities people. Make your freaking arguments against the mandate and drop the personal attacks and possibly someone will listen.
And don’t even try to paint my comment as some kind of pandering, I am opposed to the mandate. I just have never been quite so disgusted with all this. So, if no one else does, THIS pro-lifer who is opposed to the mandate genuinely apologizes for the hatred coming from the movement. It’s not supposed to be about vilifying women and hate, its supposed to be about saving babies. I don’t know why people keep losing sight of that.
Jack,
I don’t want to vilify her but I see her as a crusader for birth control and I couldn’t give a rats ass if she has to buy her own. Personally, even if she were having sex with me I wouldn’t pay for her to ingest that crap. Cry me a river……
And in my estimation it is the loons on the left (like Ms. Fluke) who are making this an issue by supporting Obama’s mandatory free contraception edict he is imposing on EVERYONE who buys or sells an insurance p[olicy! It is ludicrous that anybody would support this policy debacle.
“Why, legally, does the federal the government have the authority to mandate ALL policies offered by insurance companies cover free contraception?”
You can start with the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution and various state laws against sex-based discrimination. Insurance companies who fail to provide adequate medical care that is specifically women’s care, BECAUSE it’s women’s care, when the women are already paying for coverage, are thus forced to endure financial and physical burdens that men are not expected to endure, that’s discrimination. The fact that there has been no similar uproar over one single aspect of men’s medical care should make that abundantly clear.
“I don’t want to vilify her but I see her as a crusader for birth control and I couldn’t give a rats ass if she has to buy her own.”
You must think she would make an excellent mother. Maybe you think she should have 19 children like the Duggars have. She should drop out of law school, find an extremely left-wing man to support her, so she can raise tons of left-wing children?
Aren’t conservatives HAPPY about Democratic women being on birth control and are proud of “outbreeding” them?
Women have the same rights as men wether or not to engage in sex. Should a single woman who does not plan on having a family be forced to pay the same for a policy as a woman who wants contraception and maternity coverage because of Equal Protection?
BTW the birth control pills are not “free.” They are paid for with premiums – they do not have a copay. That is the only difference. The reason why these changes are being mandated is because 2/3 of unintended pregnancies are funded publicly and we just can’t afford it anymore.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/08/02/in-the-u-s-free-birth-control-is-born/
law1024,
It is her decision wether or not to have a family and it is her decision wether or not to have sex and it is her decision wether or not she is in a position where she can responsibly afford either. I’ll ask the logical follow-up question. Since she can’t afford birth control are we also supposed to pay to have her baby killed when she gets pregnant?
The reason why these changes are being mandated is because 2/3 of unintended pregnancies are funded publicly and we just can’t afford it anymore.
51% off all abortions are commited on mothers who were using birth control.
“Georgetown has long known to be Catholic in name only, after all, it is run by a bunch of queers (Jesuits).”
Ah, the tolerance of the pro-life movement. Snark Off. There should be no question as to why “right to lifers” are considered bigoted zealots. The Jesuits have long been known as one of the most intellectual of the Catholic orders. One suspects that the average “queer” Jesuit has far better intellectual creds than the homophobic – but pro-life – Jasper
“It is her decision wether or not to have a family and it is her decision wether or not to have sex and it is her decision wether or not she is in a position where can responsibly afford either.”
So? Insurance companies universally cover prenatal, childbirth, and postpartum care, and they all cover pediatric care. That they should cover NONreproductive care, saving the taxpayers billions in Medicaid savings, is a no-brainer.
“Women have the same rights as men wether or not to engage in sex.
That is not always true and it’s definately not true in the vast majority of relationships. This is not a debate about sex. Other people’s sex lives are not your concern. Neither are their healthcare needs.
Should a single woman who does not plan on having a family be forced to pay the same for a policy as a woman who wants contraception and maternity coverage because of Equal Protection?”
YES. That is how it is now, that is how insurance works in general. I pay for women to have babies and to take pills, and they pay for me to have my ingrown toenail removed after I broke my foot off in some idiot’s rear end, etc. It’s called the concept of shared risk. When you buy an insurance policy, your healthcare needs are largely covered and that’s why you don’t get to have a say about other people. You can’t pick and choose what coverage other people on your plan should receive (especially not based on your moral objections which have no place in these decisions), otherwise there would be no workable model of insurance coverage. That “conservatives” want to unravel this basic tenet of society is why their entire argument is patently absurd and they should be told in no uncertain terms to pack sand.
“I don’t remember any of the above being subjected to a sustained, multi-day attack on the entire blogosphere or by people who are for all intents and purposes official mouthpieces of a political party as Rush is.”
HBO didn’t go to bat for Bill Maher. Whatever radio network Ed Schultz was on didn’t bring in others to defend his comment. No liberal blogs made it a cause celebre. Rush, on the other hand, has Fox News and blogs like the Daily Caller, the Blaze, Newsbusters – just to name a few – to validate him.
And BTW, Maher and Schultz were inappropriate. They didn’t go so far as to talk about sex tapes on the internet. And again, they didn’t have a groundswell of support as does Rush.
law1024,
How does the Equal Protection clause of the constitution apply when a woman who does not plan on getting pregnant (and is able to respinsibly control her sex life without contraceptives) is being mandated to purchase an insurance policy that covers contraception and maternity coverage? And why wouldn’t it be better to allow insurance companies to offer women choices of policies that could cater to each of of these womens needs?
“How is it MY fault that Joe Schmo couldn’t hold back from drinking all that pop?”
It not your fault, but Catholic hospitals don’t consider pop immoral, although fornication and pre-marital sex is. Also, diabetes is a disease, pregnancy is not.
“YES. That is how it is now, that is how insurance works in general.”
law1024,
Your ‘shared risk’ idea sounds a lot like socialism. And prior to Obamacare you were NOT forced to buy any particular policy. We could buy any coverage we wanted including policies that only covered emergency care so I don;t know where you got that idea but you have been mislead into believing that is the way it always was.
“Perhaps you would like to explain how the county healthcenters, which ARE funded by taxpayers, are supposed to handle the increased workload and how non-employed law students are supposed to pay for the extra care on top of the limited-coverage insurance they already pay for, since a visit to the county healthcenter is not free?”
I’ve asked this type of question many times and never get an answer. The public health centers are struggling with increased caseloads and diminished funding. The saintly pro-lifers don’t seem to give a you-know-what about what happens when Planned Parenthood closes and their population needs the services that won’t be able, at present staffing and funding levels, to be served by community health centers.
Again Jasper shows the love of Jesus Christ through his comments. That’s it, I’m convinced, converting now. Lol.
“51% off all abortions are commited on mothers who were using birth control.”
Actually…not exactly. The vast majority of those were using their birth control methods inconsistently.
Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use. More: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3429402.html
What this also means is that the other half of women with unintended pregnancies were NOT using birth control at all. Factor in the number of women who use birth control (pretty much all) who did not experience unintended pregnancy and would have almost certainly had one if they had not been on birth control, and your point becomes…meaningless. Assuming you were trying to make some overwhelmingly stupid point about birth control causing abortions or something.
Jack, I certainly see anger in Jasper’s words as I saw them in your words that he was responding to. Any conversion to Jesus Christ will be judged by your own words and deeds and not by what Jasper or anybody else says about you. I tried to express this to you the other day but you would not hear and kept saying falsely accusing me of being judgmental.
“Women have the same rights as men wether or not to engage in sex”
So when married women make a decision to have sex in order to have a baby, those folks who, for whatever reason, are not procreating should not have to pay for those who do? Scuse me but that’s not how insurance policies work. I am childless by choice and spent many years paying for insurance that covered married women. But because I care about “the collective” (ewwww – commie stuff), it wasn’t a problem. And men make a decision to have sex. I’m not hearing any complaints from you folks about health care plans (including those provided by the Catholic Church) that cover Viagra.
Assuming you were trying to make some overwhelmingly stupid point about birth control causing abortions or something.
If you include the human beings conceived during break-away ovulation and aborted because the birth control caused hardening of the uterine lining then these women on birth control are aborting every year. What does that do to your percentages?
”We could buy any coverage we wanted including policies that only covered emergency care so I don;t know where you got that idea but you have been mislead into believing that is the way it always was.”
Those who work for big companies and government are usually enrolled in a group policy which doesn’t allow for picking and choosing of types of services and benefits.
CC,
Prior to Obamacare no policies were ever mandated by the government to include any particular services at all; let alone for free. And now millions of people are being forced off their policies cause Obamacare’s mandates have made insurance coverage unaffordable to them. And Obamacare has stripped people of control of their own health insurance by forcing us to pay for services we might not even want or need. I thought liberals were all about choice.
“If you include the human beings conceived during break-away ovulation and aborted because the birth control caused hardening of the uterine lining then these women on birth control are aborting every year.”
Women who are NOT on hormonal birth control ovulate far more frequently than do women who take hormonal birth control, ergo women who do not take hormonal birth control experience more miscarriages. A loss of the zygote in a woman who is on hormonal birth control is not an abortion. It is a miscarriage.
“Your ‘shared risk’ idea sounds a lot like socialism.”
Medical insurance is now socialism? O_o
“Prior to Obamacare no policies were ever mandated by the government to include any particular services at all; let alone for free.”
So? Do you also think that car insurance should not be mandated to cover collisions?
“And now millions of people are being forced off their policies cause Obamacare’s mandates have made insurance coverage unaffordable to them”
Since “Obamacare” doesn’t actually get implemented until 2014 and the only changes to insurance policies lately have been to remove copays for routine women’s health, your assertion is patently absurd.
“And Obamacare has stripped people of control of their own health insurance by forcing us to pay for services we might not even want or need.”
No one is forcing anyone to buy health insurance currently, but if you are the policyholder of a medical insurance plan, you, by design, pay for services you might not want or need, as does everyone on that plan. As of 2014, employers will be required to proved medical coverage to employees (which is no more controversial than raising the minimum wage) and will ONLY be fined if any of their employees have to take advantage of Medicaid. Translation: The rich-as-Croesus Walton Family will no longer be able to sit on their enormous piles of cash that they raked up at the expense of their part-time workers and their reverse price-gouging practices on manufacturers, and will have to actually cover their employees rather than expecting the taxpayers to do so. So not only does “Obamacare” save taxpayers tons and tons of money, it makes sure that those people who are covered by insurance do not end up in poverty due to staggering medical bills and that human beings, your neighbors who were once the fetuses you cry so much for, receive healthcare so they can work and be healthy, productive members of society.
“It not your fault, but Catholic hospitals don’t consider pop immoral, although fornication and pre-marital sex is.”
The religious beliefs of Catholics are only important in a Catholic church. If you “don’t want to fund other people’s choices” yet want to discuss them endlessly, other people’s ethical beliefs about YOUR choices are fair game, and that includes us having to pay for your completely irresponsible pop-chugging habit. Remember when you point fingers, three more point back at you.
“Also, diabetes is a disease, pregnancy is not.”
Hm, judging from the long, looong list of health effects both temporary and permanent on the female body, it certainly looks like a pretty serious medical condition to me.
Law,
You can have all the birth control pills you want, just don’t make Catholic institutions have to provide them, ok?
“How does the Equal Protection clause of the constitution apply when a woman who does not plan on getting pregnant (and is able to respinsibly control her sex life without contraceptives) is being mandated to purchase an insurance policy that covers contraception and maternity coverage?”
It does not matter what each woman’s specific needs are. Any given insurance policy covers X conditions and treatments. Each woman on that plan may take advantage of any coverage provided by that plan. So while I may never use my insurance to cover prenatal and childbirth care, I MAY use it for the serious surgery I need on my spinal cord that the pregnant ladies don’t need, for example. It’s six of one and half dozen of the other, and moral and religious judgments need not enter into the equation at all.
And why wouldn’t it be better to allow insurance companies to offer women choices of policies that could cater to each of of these womens needs?
Women picking-and-choosing what specific treatments they want will not be covered when their needs change, as they so often do. So if I was an idiot and chose not to have ingrown toenails provided by my narrowly and ignorantly defined policy (or chose a limited policy that didn’t offer it as an option), and then I got an ingrown toenail, I wouldn’t be covered and I’d end up paying twice as much for medical care as I otherwise would have if I had just chosen a comprehensive plan. Paying for a comprehensive plan also makes for more subscribers which means more money into the system and more coverage for everyone.
Paying for a policy that covers all possible contingencies is the only way that medical insurance can effectively work and to keep people from paying out of pocket medical bills that take money away from their daily needs. This is especially important for those living below the poverty line, or who have no savings or assets.
Please read up on how medical insurance works. Or better yet, by a policy.
A loss of the zygote in a woman who is on hormonal birth control is not an abortion. It is a miscarriage.
Wrong. Day two of fertilization is a Zygote, then the baby becomes a blastocyst and by the time that tiny human reaches the uterus for implantation the baby is called an embryo. And when hormonal birth control causes the baby to fail to implant it is acting as an abortificient, thus causing abortion. When an pregnancy fails in a woman who is not using abortificients it is a miscarriage.
So? Do you also think that car insurance should not be mandated to cover collisions?
Both types of policies should be available. I may need coverage for a car that is in storage in which case I should get a discount cause I would not need collision coverage.
Since “Obamacare” doesn’t actually get implemented until 2014 and the only changes to insurance policies lately have been to remove copays for routine women’s health, your assertion is patently absurd.
Tell the hundreds of thousands of people (like 90% Obama union cronies) who have already needed and gotten waivers how patently absurd it is that they needed waivers or they would have had to get dropped off their policies.
I hope you are getting this law1024…………….
I wonder how many babies have been aborted while pro-lifers are busy doing some very non-Christian vilifying of a law student, while still knowing absolutely nothing about her personal life.
To be fair, it’s no more than would have if posters were following SOP by alternately vilifying Obama, vilifying Cecile Richards, and crying crocodile tears over celebrities with breast cancer while claiming that they’d be perfectly fine if only they’d forgone careers and started having babies at fourteen like God intended.
“You can have all the birth control pills you want, just don’t make Catholic institutions have to provide them, ok?”
Your pope said you had to.
But I digress.
If “Catholic institutions” (read: businesses that make money by selling a product yet reap the benefits of not only paying no taxes but in many cases receiving government funds) want to have employees, who by definition require compensation packages, they do not have the right to discriminate or deny basic care at taxpayer’s expense.
You would think Catholics would at least respect the society they live in enough to obey the laws thereof considering how wide a berth they are given comparatively speaking; 28 states (many with Republican governors) require insurance carriers to cover contraception and this has been happening for years now with no issues whatsoever. Many states require Catholic colleges to cover contraception.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/02/birth_control_a_matter_of_publ.html
This is only an issue now because it’s election time. Unfortunately it backfired in their faces. State courts have ruled against the papists’ birth control nonsense and the SCOTUS refused to hear their complaining because they know it’s hypocritical posturing without a religiously doctrinal, ethical, moral, or logical basis whatsoever. If the church wants to turn itself into Big Business (too late), they are obligated to play by the same rules as big business does.
Paying for a policy that covers all possible contingencies is the only way that medical insurance can effectively work
Oh, So you feel ok forcing everyone to buy the same policies according to how you see their needs and your argument is that you know what is best for everybody. I thought liberals were supposed to be all about choice.
“Wrong. Day two of fertilization is a Zygote, then the baby becomes a blastocyst and by the time that tiny human reaches the uterus for implantation the baby is called an embryo. And when hormonal birth control causes the baby to fail to implant it is acting as an abortificient, thus causing abortion.”
It does not matter. It’s still a miscarriage if anything. Now if she had gone in and deliberately taken RU486 or had it removed by D&C because it had already implanted, that’s an abortion. If it doesn’t implant at all, it’s not even a pregnancy. At least, not according to your body, which has no idea it’s even there and does not react to it. To say that birth control pills cause “abortions” when no one has any way of even telling when or if it happens is just stupid.
“Tell the hundreds of thousands of people (like 90% Obama union cronies) who have already needed and gotten waivers how patently absurd it is that they needed waivers or they would have had to get dropped off their policies.”
Considering that this has nothing to do with the price of birth control pills, and is really just devolving into a discussion about how conservatives are against insurance and think it’s “socialism” and would rather see people have to have two or three jobs, thus taking time away from their kids so they can pay their staggering medical bills from unforseen circumstances (so much for family values and stay at home mommies), I really wouldn’t expect you to understand why the waivers are actually a good thing. People are not required to carry insurance until 2014.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/health/policy/20health.html?pagewanted=all
“Oh, So you feel ok forcing everyone to buy the same policies according to how you see their needs and your argument is that you know what is best for everybody. I thought liberals were supposed to be all about choice. “
Look, I really do not know what to tell you, it is not my fault if you do not understand how insurance works and why your salad-bar proposal is unworkable. As of right now you can choose not to have a policy if it bothers you so much to have to pay into a system that cares for everyone equally, including you. After 2014 you can work for an employer that chooses not to provide it and that employer will be fine as long as you don’t use medicaid.
Haven’t read all the comments but based on the sheer number of them I am guessing the answer to the question posed for everyone here is “a lot”.
At least, not according to your body, which has no idea it’s even there and does not react to it. To say that birth control pills cause “abortions” when no one has any way of even telling when or if it happens is just stupid.
law1024 . A woman’s body goes through huge hormonal changes at the point of conception just to prepare for the embryo’s implantation. A blood test can tell a woman if she is pregnant almost immediately after conception and long before implantation so obviously the woman’s body realizes she is pregnant from the point of conception. Your theory that no one even has any way of telling is not only wrong but it is just as arcane as the old pre-ultrasound argument that the babies aborted are just blobs of cells. You need to put your apprehension aside and welcome science into your mindset. The birth control most women use is exactly the same hormones that make up RU486 just not as high a dose. Hormonal contraception is the SAME chemicals as RU486 so what would be idiotic would be for someone to call one an abortificient and deny the abortificient effects of the other.
it is not my fault if you do not understand how insurance works
No, and it is not my fault if you live inside your own little Idaho where the only way insurance can work is if everybody in the US has the same policy. But at least I tried :)
Any idea why congress exempted themselves?
“A woman’s body goes through huge hormonal changes at the point of conception just to prepare for the embryo’s implantation. A blood test can tell a woman if she is pregnant almost immediately after conception and long before implantation”
This is totally incorrect. The body does not “prepare” for an implantation such that you can tell your gametes said HEY to each other. That is why the vast majority of fertilizations fail to implant.
(Current research suggests that fertilized embryos naturally fail to implant some 30% to 60% of the time. Of those that do implant, about 25% suffer early pregnancy loss by the sixth week LMP and an additional 7% miscarry or are stillborn, as a result, even without the use of birth control, between 50% and 70% of zygotes never result in established pregnancies, much less birth.)
Both home pregnancy tests and blood pregnancy tests work on the detection of hCG, which is not produced until after implantation. Ergo, before implantation there is no way you can tell there is a zygote. If it doesn’t implant you will never have known, and there is no way to see, whether it was ever there at all.
“No, and it is not my fault if you live inside your own little Idaho where the only way insurance can work is if everybody in the US has the same policy”
That was never anyone’s argument. The argument is that everyone on the same policy is covered for the same conditions. You don’t get to concoct your own special salad bar policy. And Congress I am sure have their own group plans that work exactly the same way.
“The birth control most women use is exactly the same hormones that make up RU486 just not as high a dose. “
This is also wrong. Here in the US, the vast majority if birth control pills are comprised of estrogen and progestin, or progestin only. Mifepristone has only been used in daily pills in clinical trials.
This is totally incorrect. The body does not “prepare” for an implantation
law1024, if you found out that HCG’s main function is to support the corpus luteum producing progesterone from the point of conception would it make anyy difference to you? And for you to deny that a womans biorythm/menstrual cycle does not prepare a woman for for embryo implantation is really pretty nutty.
***
The argument is that everyone on the same policy is covered for the same conditions.
Huh , you saying what you said above makes it appear you are blocking out the fundamentals of our entire discussion. Nobody is or has been arguing that everyone on the same policy should be not covered for the same conditions. I am thinking this has been too much for you and you need a break but I will say it one more time for you. The problem is that Obamacare mandates what conditions need to be covered on EVERY health insurance policy sold in the US as evidenced by their latest attempts to micromanage it all the way down to forcing every policy sold in the US to include chemical abortificients.
“law1024, if you found out that HCG’s main function is to support the corpus luteum producing progesterone from the point of conception would it make anyy difference to you?”
HCG is not produced until after implantation. So it has nothing to do with the discussion as to whether or not the failure of a zygote to implant is an “abortion.” It’s not because there’s no way to say that it’s even a pregnancy. The body has no idea it’s even there. That’s why so many of them just fall out on their own, undetected.
“The problem is that Obamacare mandates what conditions need to be covered on EVERY health insurance policy sold in the US”
That you think that this is a problem is one of many reasons why Republicans will be losing seats in Congress and don’t have a prayer of winning the White House this year. To say that it should be perfectly OK for insurance companies to fail to cover certain aspects of women’s health because a. they’re women, b. someone objects on religious grounds or c. how dare the government tell insurance companies what to do is to admit that you’re a complete toolshed with no understanding of how society works. None of these arguments is a legitimate argument. An insurance company that fails to cover legitimate and important medical conditions is not an insurance company at all, it’s a scam. Mmkay?
HCG is not produced until after implantation. So it has nothing to do with the discussion as to whether or not the failure of a zygote to implant is an “abortion.”
You are either getting far too emotional or you have a reading comprehension problem cause I already told you that a zygote is only day #2 of a human beings life. By the time of implantation the baby is an embryo. Why do you refuse to dialogue with an open mind?
I already told you that a zygote is only day #2 of a human beings life. By the time of implantation the baby is an embryo.”
It doesn’t matter. The vast majority of fertilized eggs fall out undetected and there’s no way to even tell it happened before implantation occurs. To call this an “abortion” is idiotic, as it isn’t even a detectable pregnancy.
God Almighty alone has the final say and may He have mercy on the souls of those who have defied Him. God is energizing His faithful with His Most Holy Spirit, and we are going to stand up to you liberal progressive Democrats. We are not going to take your abuse any longer. You do NOT get to run this country into the damnation of the infanticide of the unborn and the sexual promiscuity of adultery, fornication and homosexual sodomy.
Do some research. I have found this in half a dozen sources:
”HCG is detectable in the blood serum of approximately 5% of pregnant women by 8 days after conception, and in virtually all the rest by 11 days. HCG rises progressively from conception. Levels double on the average, every 30.9 hours until values reach 6500 mIU/ml (6,500 IU/L) at approximately the eighth week after the last menstrual period (LMP). After that the rate of rise becomes individualized, peaking between the 60th and 70th day (9 to 10 weeks) LMP. HCG decreases slightly between the 12th and 16th week post LMP, and then remains constant until birth. ”
So HCG starts getting secreted by the placenta almost immediately after conception and continues to double every 30 hours and reaches detectable levels in the blood stream about six days after pregnanc/conception.
And if the baby is lost cause a woman is taking abortificients then it is an abortion….duh
law1024, people going through life misinformed and spreading their misinformation to others should and does matter to people who think the truth is important.
Do some research. I have found this in half a dozen sources:
”HCG is detectable in the blood serum of approximately 5% of pregnant women by 8 days after conception,
HCG is, again, not produced until after implantation. It doesn’t matter how old the conception is. Before that implantation, pregnancy cannot be detected. “Failure to implant” is not an abortion. I personally wouldn’t even be generous enough to call it a miscarriage.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/human-chorionic-gonadotropin-hcg
An abortion is either a surgical procedure or a medical regimen to remove what’s detectably there. It’s a pretty deliberate thing.
Law: Joe the Plumber, private citizen lambasted all across the media for pointing out that Obama’s “wealth redistribution” is in fact socialism.
And you never did answer this logical follow-up question I had posed to you earlier:
Since Fluke can’t afford birth control do you think we also mandate all insurance policies include free abortion in case her birth control fails? So far all the arguments you gave would make me think you will say the answer is yes.
“law1024, people going through life misinformed and spreading their misinformation to others should and does matter to people who think the truth is important”
I agree. Since you believe that insurance is “socialism” and that the pill is the same thing as RU486, may I politely ask you to STFU and stop spreading misinformation and absurdities mislabeled as “truth?”
“Since Fluke can’t afford birth control are we also supposed to pay to have her commit abortion if the birth control fails?”
…or if the birth control fails, are we supposed to pay for the expenses associated with her pregnancy if she chooses to bring it to term?
Enlighten us all then law1024. Tell us, other than dosage and the name they give when packaging it, what is the difference between hormonal birth control and RU486? Is there any chemical difference at all?
“Since Fluke can’t afford birth control are we also supposed to pay to have her commit abortion if the birth control fails?”
Currently, some insurance plans cover abortion and some don’t. Find out which yours is. If you do not have insurance, you don’t “pay to have her” do anything. Even if you had a plan in her same network, that is not “paying to have her” “commit” anything.
Or if Sandra Fluke’s baby is born with a disability, will you–the holy taxpayer–make a fuss about subsidizing special education and services for this child on the principle that his/her mother made a “lifestyle decision” you don’t personally agree with?
Of course not Megan.
law 1204,
I did not ask you what our current policy is regarding abortion. Just answer the question honestly cause all the arguments you give for mandating contraception coverage could just as easily be made for abortion coverage.
“Since Fluke can’t afford birth control should Obama also mandate ALL insurance policies must pay 100% of the costs to have her commit abortion if the birth control fails?”
I personally wouldn’t even be generous enough to call it a miscarriage.
But you did. So why the change of mind? Does your emotional state demand that you deny any human life exists prior to implantation? You must realize how patently false that would be from a scientific perspective.
“I did not ask you what our current policy is regarding abortion”
Well, the current policy is reality and anything else is purely hypothetical or a figment of your imagination. Right now you don’t have to pay for anything. Even if you had a policy in Sandra Fluke’s same network and she got pregnant and wanted an abortion, you would not be “paying for her abortion.” You would be paying a company to provide you with medical coverage so that your medical needs would be met. To say that sharing a network with women who have abortions is “paying for abortion” is to say that buying a Brahms CD from FYE is the same as having shot Tupac because FYE sells CDs of Tupac’s rival’s music.
As for the difference between RU486 and the Pill, estrogen and progestin are natural human hormones that are already produced by the body. Mifepristone is a synthetic steroid compound that is used in conjunction with other medicines to suppress certain hormones in the body. They aren’t even remotely the same thing.
I personally wouldn’t even be generous enough to call it a miscarriage.
But you did.
And? That was me being generous.
So why the change of mind?
Clearly my unwillingness to concede that it is even miscarriage when I am not feeling generous about it is merely my personal opinion. You are not obligated to agree with me and I don’t care if you do. Ask Pubmed or the AMJ or the BMJ what they think.
Does your emotional state demand that you deny any human life exists prior to implantation?
It really is only an emotional state that believes in shaping public policy on the belief in an “existence of a human life” when it cannot be detected by any scientific method, cannot be seen with the naked eye, and the body in which it allegedly resides doesn’t even detect it. Then again you guys hear voices from the sky, so…
You must realize how patently false that would be from a scientific perspective.
You really wanna talk about science and you don’t know the difference between the BC pill and RU486? Do tell me what scientific method can detect a conceptus before implantation in the human body. Inquiring minds want to know.
By the way. Here is the most complete descriptin of HCG levels I have found. It is from the site of a pregnancy strip test manufacturer and seems to put together all of the HCG facts rather than being fed bits and pieces bu sources with motives othe rthan the truth.
According to them HCG is produced by the placenta beginning at conception and gets released into the blood stream soon after implantation. So YES, the womans body is very aware of her pregnancy beginning from the point of conception (duh) and YES HCG is typically not released into the blood stream in detectable levels until soon after implantation.
If you find any reliable sources that contradict this then please make me aware.
http://www.babymed.com/hcg-level
This could be useful. Theoretically if we could find a way to test the HCG level in the placenta of rape victims we could get accurate pregnancy results earlier and give them the best possible information and offer them the morning after pill to prevent pregnancy if none has already occured.
law 1204,
I did not ask you what our current policy is regarding abortion. Just answer the question honestly cause all the arguments you give for mandating contraception coverage could just as easily be made for abortion coverage.
“Since Fluke can’t afford birth control should Obama also mandate ALL insurance policies must pay 100% of the costs to have her commit abortion if the birth control fails?”
Well, the current policy is reality and anything else is purely hypothetical or a figment of your imagination.
Dodged like a ‘true’ liberal. Only liberals take a ‘fifth amendment’ like stance and refuse to answer questions during blog chats as if they were siiting on the stand in legal proceedings. Whats the matter? Cat got your tongue? lol
It helps me educate myself and I value honesty ao I am not afraid to admit when I am mistaken about something. RU486 is different than hormonal birth control. I confused it with other morning-after pills which were used to cause abortion and they are just higher doses of the same hormones they use in birth control. Both have the same effect though of destroying the uterine lining and causing abortion.
Are you really going to stand by your position that the zygote is not a human life because
‘ “It really is only an emotional state that believes in shaping public policy on the belief in an “existence of a human life” when it cannot be detected by any scientific method, cannot be seen with the naked eye, and the body in which it allegedly resides doesn’t even detect it. ‘ that is freakish.
Umm…I think Jasper should be banned for calling Jack a fag.
It definitely was not kind but in Jasper’s defense it was in response to Jack calling somebody a POS which kind of opens someone up for foul language back at them doesn’t it?
Really. He makes ken look circumspect by comparison
A lot of swearing has been getting through lately. I know I’m irredeemably square, but words mean things. It’s as much of a slap in the face as using the “s” word at the dinner table. Gaaa!
The ‘s’ word….hmmm do you meant the four letter one that ends in ‘t’?
“According to them HCG is produced by the placenta beginning at conception”
Your site says no such thing, because it’s not true. HCG is not produced beginning at conception.
“Dodged like a ‘true’ liberal. “
If you are asking me my opinion as to whether or not the government should require all insurance plans to cover abortion, the answer is absolutely, since there are plenty of medical reasons why an abortion should become necessary (for example, life threatening hypertension) and that is determined by a doctor, not a shaman. Do I think that it will? Probably not, there are too many ignorant religionists involved in the issue who unfortunately wield way more power than they deserve, and take the positions they do only to greedily steal even more power than they already have.
I confused it with other morning-after pills which were used to cause abortion and they are just higher doses of the same hormones they use in birth control. Both have the same effect though of destroying the uterine lining and causing abortion.
Morning after pills do not cause abortion and they do not “destroy the uterine lining.” The only thing that “destroys” the uterine lining is ablation therapy, used for women whose monthly cycle is excessive.
Are you really going to stand by your position that the zygote is not a human life because
‘ “It really is only an emotional state that believes in shaping public policy on the belief in an “existence of a human life” when it cannot be detected by any scientific method, cannot be seen with the naked eye, and the body in which it allegedly resides doesn’t even detect it. ‘ that is freakish.
Referring to what someone says as “freakish” is neither substantive nor compelling.
Yeah, truthseeker, because calling women prostitutes is fine, calling me a fag is cool, but picking on poor little defenseless Rush, heaven forbid!
Anyway, I don’t care what Jasper calls me, I think it’s quite amusing that he claims the moral high ground while contributing nothing to the debate and acting like an idiot. It is against the rules of the board though, and its not the first time he has attacked people, not by far.
Jack, I was talking about Jasper going too far, but I also disagree with your assessment of Rush. It’s not easy to yak three hours a day and not jump the gun on some breaking news story. I’m sure we’ve both written something we wish we could take back.
Law1204 wrote:
“BTW before I forget, all told there are approximately 10,000 women (that’s students, staff, and other faculty) associated with Georgetown University (many of whom are Catholics). That’s 10,000 extra people that PP must take care of including the low-income women already residing in the entire DC Metro area. Would you like to propose how two DC metro facilities are supposed to take care of that many patients and where the extra money should come from if they now have to cover all of Georgetown’s women on top of what they already do?”
I wrote:
That is making a broad and sweeping assumption that not a single of those individuals associated with Georgetown University already has a provider, either private or through a health care system.
Law wrote in response:
This is not about whether they have an insurance provider. It is about whether healthcare insurance providers should actually cover healthcare. If insurance providers can’t be expected to actually insure anyone, and women must resort to taxpayer-funded clinics to keep their ovaries from exploding even after they’ve paid for insurance they can’t use, then why have health insurance at all?…I guess Romney and Gingrich and their followers really AREN’T concerned about poverty.”
I write in response:
I was responding that it was a broad assumption that of “10,000 women (that’s students, staff, and other faculty) associated with Georgetown University” not a single of those individuals associated already has a healthcare provider (as in physician’s office) and sees a physician in a private practice or practice affiliated with a health care system, and either can afford to self pay or has insurance. Want to talk about making a bleeding heart case. You wrote it to sound as if every single of the 10,000 women are poverty struck, and the PP is the only viable health care provider in the DC metro area other than two income-based clinics, completely disregarding the Georgetown individuals who may be able to afford to self-pay or have insurance, including faculty and staff who may have insurance benefits through the university. I don’t doubt that law student’s aren’t poverty struck (as are many doctorate students with 6 figure loan debts, my younger sister is attending grad school to become a physical therapist), but you’re using the law student situation to incorrectly generalize everyone. And come on, let’s not be an alarmist, the issue being discussed is whether elective birth control and abortion should be covered, not medical emergencies (as I can imagine few who’d oppose necessary emergency medical care). Also, yes, we do care about poverty, just not in a manner to suit or please you or any other pro-choicer’s political ideations. Nice try at an ad hominem attack, there.
law1204 said:
Your site says no such thing, because it’s not true. HCG is not produced beginning at conception.
This is what is stated on that site I pointed you to:
“It’s (HCG) main function is to support the corpus luteum producing progesterone when conception occurs.”
***********
So tell me law1204; if HCG is not produced until after implantation then how does it support the corpus luteum producing progesterone from the point of conception? And if a womens body is unaware of pregnancy until implantation (you can’t be serious here) then why does the corpus luteum start prodicung progesterone at the point of conception? Seriously….admit you were not aware and show you have an open mind too?
Sorry Hans, my assessment of Rush isn’t going to change, most likely. I am sick of these pundits saying outrageous and ridiculous things, and getting away with it. My personal favorite is when he said por children just need to look in the fridge for food. For someone who “speaks the truth” he does a lot of fear mongering, baseless assertions, and personal attacks.
I don’t exempt the liberal side either. Maher had said some awful stuff too. Political discourse has gotten absolutely ridiculous in this country.
And I know I am not usually so rude, but I am honestly sick of this crap. I don’t like hypocrisy and baseless attacks, and this contraception mandate seems to have brought it out in spades.
Yeah, truthseeker, because calling women prostitutes is fine, calling me a fag is cool, but picking on poor little defenseless Rush, heaven forbid!
Personally I don’t like any of it but if you call somebody a POS you can expect to get called something back. That is all I was saying.
Jack, Rush really has some spot-on commentary. Most of his “outrages” have been all smoke and no fire. I’m sure he didn’t say poor children are never hungry, just that they’re not starving like in other countries.
He often reacts to snippets of audio, and his outrage at Ms. Fluke got the better of him. I’ve heard from plenty of sources that “she’s asking for money for her sex life”, “that’s making us pimps”, “what does that make her?”
Look for an apology from the Left’s outrages. There much rarer.
Some of his commentary is alright. Most that I have heard is ridiculous and fairly disgusting. Honestly, I don’t have much respect for pundits in general, if I want to hear heavily biased opinion I can get on the internet and read random comments, LOL. Or listen to my father-in-law. ;)
Kids still die from malnutrition in this country, though that wasn’t really my point. My point is that he says stupid stuff like that, directed at children, and he still gets treated with legitimacy.
I don’t think this “well the other side does it worse!” type of discourse means much. Personally, I think the right does it worse but it doesn’t really matter, both sides are wrong when they do this stuff.
And fine, Truth. I am very sorry I snarked at Limbaugh. I wouldn’t want to hurt his feelings if he randomly goes on Jill’s blog. That make up for it?
We are all pundits now. I guess when it comes to politics, the grass always looks browner on the other side. ;)
“but you’re using the law student situation to incorrectly generalize everyone.”
‘She’s just some law student and therefore doesn’t really matter because she’s not ME.’
Good to know.
“So tell me law1204; if HCG is not produced until after implantation then how does it support the corpus luteum producing progesterone from the point of conception?”
“Results indicate that HCG does not appear in the maternal circulation until after the implantation of the blastocyst.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1117063
So whether or not there are undetectable levels of hCG in the uterus before implantation is…irrelevant. Pregnancy tests do not detect it and there is no test outside of clinical studies that does, and you’re back to square one. That is to say, no one really knows for sure if it’s even there in any given situation until you pee on a stick and it turns blue.
“…there is no clear evidence of CG secretion as a bioactive dimer before attachment and trophoblast outgrowth stages of implantation. The studies summarized question the timing of CG expression and secretion, the possible roles of CG for intraembryonic differentiation and at the implantation site, and the recognition of this primate embryo-derived signal in support of the corpus luteum. The data suggest that the implantation window in primates may be broader than in nonprimate species, where a closer synchrony between embryonic, tubal and uterine events appears to be necessary for embryonic survival…”
http://www.reproduction-online.org/content/92/2/497.abstract?ijkey=aae6ec18c1a066b224c08d5963ddfc053a6acacd&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
The only thing that “destroys” the uterine lining is ablation therapy, used for women whose monthly cycle is excessive.
RU486 destroys the uterine lining too and so does high doses of hormones.
And you are really reaching to try and support your opinion that a womens is unaware when conception occurs. Why is that so important to you. Would it make a difference to you if I could prove to you scientifically that a womens body begins physiological changes when conception occurs?
Secondly, now that you have been shown to be WRONG about the presence of HCG at conception your response is….” So whether or not there are undetectable levels of hCG in the uterus before implantation is…irrelevant.”
So even if the HCG level in the placenta could be used to determine conception prior to implantation it would be irrelenant to you. You are a hoot.
I wonder how mp feels about indiscriminate shelling and drone attacks. After all, if you don’t know there are innocent lives there, no harm, no foul, eh?
We think celebratory gunfire in the air is nuts and primitive, but how many brand-new humans have we flushed out unknowingly?
And fine, Truth. I am very sorry I snarked at Limbaugh. I wouldn’t want to hurt his feelings if he randomly goes on Jill’s blog. That make up for it?
Ask Jasper…
Hans, I hear Holder is going to give his legal defense for drone strikes soon.
truthseeker,
While he’s at it, maybe he can ask the president to apologize to the family of the slain border patrol agent for selling the gun used to kill him. He’s had enough practice apologizing to wild-eyed Afghans and Ms. Fluke.
Interesting (and quite popular) thread. :)
Hans: We think celebratory gunfire in the air is nuts and primitive
Uh… we do? ;)
How can any sane human being not think about abortion? How, in the name of God can anyone contemplate doing harm to an innocent baby? Has God abandoned us?
law1204 wrote:
As for the difference between RU486 and the Pill, estrogen and progestin are natural human hormones that are already produced by the body.
Er… it’s my understanding that progestIN is a synthetic version of progestERONE (with some differences in how the body responds to it), and it is NOT produced by the body. Perhaps you have different information?
It really is only an emotional state that believes in shaping public policy on the belief in an “existence of a human life” when it cannot be detected by any scientific method, cannot be seen with the naked eye, and the body in which it allegedly resides doesn’t even detect it.
This, friend, is so wildly illogical that I can only shake my head in amazement. (The old aphroism seems to hold true: there are no people more illogical than belligerents who pride themselves on being “logical”.) Aside from your caricature of things (we wish any newly-conceived life that MIGHT come to be protected from a deadly threat which is medically unnecessary for anyone, just as we’d want any as-yet-undetected person protected from death within a building slated for demolition): surely you realise that, in the case of a failed implantation, there must have been an existing human offspring who failed to implant? Or are you of the view that “If I can’t see or hear you, then killing you won’t be murder?” Schrodinger would be proud, I’m sure.
Is it not utterly clear that we are trying to safeguard, from a deadly threat, the lives of those children who would be conceived and who would fail to implant in such a hostile environment? Your suggestion that “we don’t know they’re there, so they aren’t persons and/or they don’t exist, and no efforts need be made to safeguard any of them from possible danger” is stuff and nonsense.
Then again you guys hear voices from the sky, so…
(*sigh*) And another belligerent commenter starts down the path to troll-dom. Not exactly unpredictable. If you’d like us to take you at all seriously, fellow, put your bag of troll-tricks (including gratuitous ad hominem gibes and sneers) away, please.
You really wanna talk about science and you don’t know the difference between the BC pill and RU486?
(*sigh, again*) This, from someone who does not know the difference between progestin and progesterone? Do put your flame-thrower and arrogance away, sir; they’re not only useless and unnecessary (any logical points can be made without them, and much more effectively), but they ravage any credibility you seek to establish.
RU486 destroys the uterine lining too and so does high doses of hormones.
NO, it doesn’t. RU486 basically causes a miscarriage – a period. The lining sloughs off just like it would every month, and then it grows back just like it does every month. High doses of hormones do not destroy the uterine lining otherwise doctors would not prescribe it else it would threaten a woman’s potentiality of becoming pregnant (this is why ablation therapy is for women who do not plan on having any more children). Where do you read this nonsense???
And you are really reaching to try and support your opinion that a womens is unaware when conception occurs.
It may be calculated in a clinical setting but at home, there is no way to tell exactly when it happens.
Why is that so important to you.
It’s NOT. That’s the point. It’s only important to you so you can accuse women who take the pill of being guilty of having abortions, which is pure a**holery. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, the vast majority of zygotes slide out unnoticed anyway, pill or no (and those who are not on the pill have this happen far more often because they ovulate more often). It’s a totally natural and undetectible phenomena. If you have a conception and it fails to implant and you go to the doctor, he’d never be able to tell you you were pregnant and there wouldn’t be any treatment. This is not an “abortion.”
Would it make a difference to you if I could prove to you scientifically that a womens body begins physiological changes when conception occurs?
No. It’s still not an abortion if a zygote fails to hold on.
Secondly, now that you have been shown to be WRONG about the presence of HCG at conception your response is….”
Really? Because the cites I gave were from medical publications. Feel free to read them again.
So whether or not there are undetectable levels of hCG in the uterus before implantation is…irrelevant.”
So even if the HCG level in the placenta could be used to determine conception prior to implantation it would be irrelenant to you.
That’s the problem with you weirdos, you have to talk in hypotheticals all the time so you can demonize women. Hypotheticals that will never become reality. Pregnancy is not detected until after implantation. Some time after that, I might add. If you start peeing on the stick three days after you have sex, sorry but it’s not gonna come up positive. If your zygote falls out on it’s own, your pee stick will not show positive either. I mean, I know there are plenty of women who want to get knocked up for the glory, and when they lose their week-old pregnancy (IE, they had a late period) they have to turn the martyrdom on and start mourning over the used tampons for the attention and having little sanitary pad funerals, but it’s ridiculous.
Sheesh, I know the human female body doesn’t come with a manual but by all means at least call up your local friendly gynecologist if you don’t believe me. The Catholic church and it’s internet sites of propaganda and hate are not the place to learn facts about the female body. What a bunch of ignorant twattle.
You are a hoot.
And you are an ignorant, hateful person. Really pretty sad when your miseducation that you received reading hate sites like this one and ones put out by the Catholic church (which has been demonizing science since it started and certainly shows no sign of stopping) so you can accuse women of having “abortions.” I don’t know what is worse, accusing pill-users of having “abortions” or calling them sluts and whores; either way it’s completely absurd and completely WRONG.
Paladin:
“surely you realise that, in the case of a failed implantation, there must have been an existing human offspring who failed to implant? Or are you of the view that “If I can’t see or hear you, then killing you won’t be murder?”
So now pill users are guilty of murder (even though failed implantation happens more often in non-pill users). Hm, I take back what I said, calling women sluts and whores was an improvement in the dialogue.
“This, from someone who does not know the difference between progestin and progesterone?”
I never brought up progesterone. Progestin is a synthetic hormone used in the pill. All horribly controversial, I know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestogens You must have me confused with your voices in the sky. If you want to split hairs over what hormonal combinations are used in various brands of the BC pill, feel free, I don’t use them and couldn’t care less at that point.
Here is what I said earlier about the difference between the pill and RU486.
“As for the difference between RU486 and the Pill, estrogen and progestin are natural human hormones that are already produced by the body.”
Estrogen is a natural human hormone and progestin mimics natural human hormone (or, acts in the same capacity).
Now if you want to get all upset about it, that’s fine, but I would think that accusations that the pill “destroys” the uterine lining would be more worthy of addressing?
One of my closest friends — ever — left his wife, his children, and his faith years back. It’s not as simple as blaming him alone, of course, but a consequence was that his wife went on to have a couple of abortions from disastrous relationships after that. And I look at my own difficult marriage and think — Good grief, is whatever pain I/we suffer presently child’s play compared with some parallel universe where we might go our separate ways?
A recurring motif in my thinking and examination of political arguments is the idea that in opposing some particular thing, many folks tend to imagine the alternative to the status quo would be better — apparently merely because they happen to see the present difficulties while the counterfactual ones remain an intangible, vague imagining that never quite enters the head. I see this all the time.
Abortion is like that. The present “problem” looms large, and the imagination can’t rise to the occasion of considering good things coming from a choice for life. That’s sad.
All that to say that although I frequently think about abortion for both concrete specific and abstract general reasons, it’s at least as true that the reality of abortion makes me think about a lot of other, intimately related things so often.
“Blessed are those who mourn.” When there’s a death, after a couple weeks people expect you to get on with living. But how to conduct oneself when the deaths are a bloody river endlessly flowing, from sea to shining sea?
law1204 wrote:
Here is what I said earlier about the difference between the pill and RU486. “As for the difference between RU486 and the Pill, estrogen and progestin are natural human hormones that are already produced by the body.”
And you are wrong: Progestin is NOT a natural hormone produced in the body; it is a synthetic hormone which, as per the definition of “synthetic”, is NOT produced in the body. All other things being equal, it’s a minor point worth only a small comment; but since you charged in with arrogance, insults and bluster (all on the pretext of your alleged superior intellect and scientific acumen), I gave you a bit more of a rebuke than I’d normally give in such a circumstance. Put your flame-thrower away, and you may get gentler treatment.
And as for your recommendations of what is “worthy of addressing”: if you decide to stop behaving as a belligerent and intellectually/emotionally insecure troll, perhaps I might give your recommendation a bit more weight. Do consider some civility, will you? If your argument is sound, then it will not need the nonsense to bolster it (and to distract your opponents from any weaknesses).
I don’t know what is worse, accusing pill-users of having “abortions” or calling them sluts and whores; either way it’s completely absurd and completely WRONG.
But I thought abortion was just a common medical procedure, no different than removing an appendix? What’s so different of accusing someone of having an abortion from accusing someone of having had their wisdom teeth removed?
And for the record, I don’t believe the pill works as an abortificent, my sister-in-law, and my mom all got pregnant while taking it, and the AAPLOG has said there is no definitive research proving it does. At this point in my life, I just think that you can attempt to avoid pregnancy all you like, but if it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna happen.
“And you are wrong: Progestin is NOT a natural hormone produced in the body; it is a synthetic hormon”
Estrogen is natural and progestin pretends to be. Meanwhile one of your ideological peers thinks that RU486 is the same as the pill and doesn’t know the difference between a hormone and a steroid; doesn’t know the difference between a zygote not implanting and an abortion, and thinks that perfectly safe and legal medications “destroy” the uterine lining. I know you think you’re clever and have scored some sort of point, I assure you you’ve surrounded yourself with stupid and you’d do better to clean house than fool yourself into thinking you’ve taught me something so you can feel better about yourself.
“But how to conduct oneself when the deaths are a bloody river endlessly flowing, from sea to shining sea?”
Yes, how indeed. The only way to stop thinking about abortion (or to be pro-choice) is to ignore the victims of abortion. It’s the same with any holocaust. It can only be tolerable if you refuse to think of the victims and identify instead with the perpetrators.
“What’s so different of accusing someone of having an abortion from accusing someone of having had their wisdom teeth removed?”
It’s this kind of herpaderp that guarantees continued losses in politics for your candidates that align with this.
Rasqual wrote:
“Blessed are those who mourn.” When there’s a death, after a couple weeks people expect you to get on with living. But how to conduct oneself when the deaths are a bloody river endlessly flowing, from sea to shining sea?
Very, VERY well put. I don’t think many people could put it better.
Hans: We are all pundits now. I guess when it comes to politics, the grass always looks browner on the other side.
Ha! Well said, Sir. :)
Law,
Suit yourself; I tried. Consider yourself classified as a bona-fide troll. If you choose to adopt even a modicum of manners in the future (and use some sound logic, rather than hysterically-cobbled-together screed and sound-bytes), then I’ll be happy to have a rational discussion with you; but believe me, I’ve been on the “snarling-troll-express” before (i.e. trying to speak reasonably with one whose logical inadequacies are cloaked in hyper-reactive screed and affected scorn), and it benefited no one. Nowhere did I sign in blood any agreement to talk with trolls, regardless of provocation; life is rather too short, for that.
Law,
Do not put words in my mouth, that wasn’t, what I was saying and you know it, as I sympathized with the law students (and grad students) in the statement prior to it. However, I was making the point that your logic is fauluty and the fallacy of your argument. You can quit trying to apply indifference and malice towards me where there is none. The last time I checked, you didn’t have magical mind reading abilities.
“Suit yourself; I tried.”
Tried what? To boost your flagging self-esteem at my expense? Now that you’ve discovered that treating people like they’re stupid and then pretending that you’re “trying to have a rational discussion” whilst ignoring the idiots that you ideologically side with is just a really good example of moron behavior. You don’t get to claim some moral high ground for yourself.
Consider yourself classified as a bona-fide troll.
Oh nooo, I’m so sad!! Whatever am I going to do with myself? Here, “troll” = “anyone disagreeing with you.” If I were really a troll, you’d totally ignore my posts.
If you choose to adopt even a modicum of manners in the future
Manners – that is to say, accusing women using the pill of being “murderers,” insurance carriers are “socialist,” law school students are “sluts and whores,” this place is an asylum. Manners don’t even enter into it.
Law: a vast number of morons agree with you on a lot of things. And with those who disagree with you on a lot of things. And you agree with those here on a lot of things. Everyone’s surrounded by morons. Everyone’s surrounded by intelligent people. That’s true in just the case where one identifies at least one point on which members of each group (morons, geniuses) agree.
If you’re trying to be insulting, you’re failing in the way that stating the obvious fails to be meaningful at all, much less insultingly so.
a vast number of morons agree with you on a lot of things. And with those who disagree with you on a lot of things. And you agree with those here on a lot of things. Everyone’s surrounded by morons. Everyone’s surrounded by intelligent people. That’s true in just the case where one identifies at least one point on which members of each group (morons, geniuses) agree.
Wow. This is deep. I totally wish I had a joint right now. Maybe I should totally head on over and make an someecard out of it and post it to my Facebook.
Law wrote:
“Wat a bunch of ignorant twattle.
You are a hoot.
And you are an ignorant, hateful person. ”
Pot calling kettle…
It’s this kind of herpaderp that guarantees continued losses in politics for your candidates that align with this.
And it’s this kind of deflection from a perfectly valid question herpaderp that guarantees you guys are going to lose the war of public opinion because you can’t defend your position.
” you guys are going to lose the war of public opinion”
Ok sweetie. You keep telling yourself that. Rush just prostituted himself to his advertisers, your political candidates are a Cirque du Soleil for the mentally handicapped, Olympia Snowe just defected on you, your religious objections keep getting slapped down in the courts, Virginia politicians backpeddled when their shenanigans was highlighted in the media, you can’t get a real referendum passed anywhere that sticks, seats will be lost in November, you don’t have a shot in hell at the presidency, you killed Susan G. Komen, abortion is still legal in all 50 states, Sandra Fluke is a heroine and the Republicans look like a bunch of misogynist twunts, and now Maryland is the 8th state to legalize gay marriage. But public opinion is with *you*.
Please don’t make me laugh, it totally kills my buzz.
Same triumphalist, entitlement tone slaveholders evinced in their rhetorical bluster back in the day. Abolitionists were just fanatical losers whose endorsements lost elections for their candidates of choice.
Heh.
But let’s say your “don’t have a shot at the presidency” means Obama’s ensured of a second term.
I’m missing, again, where this is supposed to be good news for anybody at all, pro-choice or otherwise…
“Same triumphalist, entitlement tone slaveholders evinced in their rhetorical bluster back in the day.”
Slaveholders were only defeated by force of war in which 700,000 people died.
You don’t have that resource. Unless, of course, pro-lifers want to secede from the union and start gathering their little army and artillery and whatnot. Isn’t most of the south “pro-life?” Is this one of those “the south will rise again!!” things?
Typical provincial, with sensibilities entirely shaped by American experience.
The British empire outlawed slavery before the American Civil War.
So the historical precedent for abolition is not war, but law.
Ironic that you seem unaware of this… law.
All Americans with a franchise as citizens have equal access to that resource.
Now if you want to get all upset about it, that’s fine, but I would think that accusations that the pill “destroys” the uterine lining would be more worthy of addressing?
law1204,
Your angry responses on these matters resembles that of a post-abortive woman.
From the stand point of the human life that gets aborted and the standpoint of ‘nature’ both hormonal contraception and RU486 certainly severely wreck and then destroy the uterine lining. And from the standpoint of RU486 it destroys the uterine lining to the point where some women bleed to death if they don’t get immediate treatment. Tell me oh wonderous mind-bending one; how it is the embryo gets discharged from the uterine lining without destroying the lining? ….try not to overthink this and now might be a good time to use your liberal deflecting technique and or refuse to answer cause you feel insulted.
After you have taken mifepristone, you might have:
Nausea or dizziness for a short time
Bleeding from the vagina about 12 hours after treatment
Bleeding and cramps that feel like a painful period (women who usually have painful periods are more likely to have severe cramping, but these symptoms usually lessen once the abortion is complete)
Not much of a uterine lining in tact here then is there?
How RU486 works to shed embryo:
Without progesterone the lining of the uterus breaks down, shedding it and the newly implanted embryo. It also initiates contractions.
Good effort, Truth… but I’d suggest that you not feed the trolls; it only encourages them. Ignore them, and they may find another bridge to haunt.
law1204,
Are you a Medical Doctor or a Women’s Studies major? Seriously. Are you running for political office after law school?
“Typical provincial, with sensibilities entirely shaped by American experience.”
Mea maxima culpa, I had no idea this board was sooo cosmopolitan. I’m sure you’ll keep this in mind going forward when we discuss things like privilege.
“Your angry responses on these matters resembles that of a post-abortive woman.”
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
“both hormonal contraception and RU486 certainly severely wreck and then destroy the uterine lining”
And what is your source for this, exactly?
“And from the standpoint of RU486 it destroys the uterine lining to the point where some women bleed to death if they don’t get immediate treatment. “
Well as long as we’re taking a tally of what is bad for your health and can kill you, how many deaths have been caused by Catholicism?
“Tell me oh wonderous mind-bending one; how it is the embryo gets discharged from the uterine lining without destroying the lining? “
Deliberately causing your period is not destroying the lining any more than having a period naturally does. Look, I understand you don’t know how this stuff works, but that is what Pubmed is for. Clearly you know how to use your computer so there’s really no excuse for this nonsense.
“After you have taken mifepristone, you might have:
Nausea or dizziness for a short time
Bleeding from the vagina about 12 hours after treatment
Bleeding and cramps that feel like a painful period (women who usually have painful periods are more likely to have severe cramping, but these symptoms usually lessen once the abortion is complete)
Not much of a uterine lining in tact here then is there?”
Gee, this isn’t even as bad as the side effects I used to get from attending church. I kinda wonder if you aren’t one of those women who creates art with her placentas and then dries them into pill form for consumption – since you’re so obsessed about salvaging the uterine lining and so many of your cohorts think skipping periods is almost as bad as becoming a voluntary sacrifice in a druid ritual or something.
Well as long as we’re taking a tally of what is bad for your health and can kill you, how many deaths have been caused by Catholicism?
Compared to what? The numbers are relative. No one group has a monopoly on virtue.
Gee, this isn’t even as bad as the side effects I used to get from attending church.
What were those? Did you have projectile vomiting while your head spun? Did your skin burn and blister when sprinkled with Holy Water? Did you scream uncontrollably when you noticed a crucifix?
“Well as long as we’re taking a tally of what is bad for your health and can kill you, how many deaths have been caused by Catholicism?
Compared to what?”
Pick something. Anything, really.
Gee, this isn’t even as bad as the side effects I used to get from attending church.
What were those? Did you have projectile vomiting while your head spun? Did your skin burn and blister when sprinkled with Holy Water? Did you scream uncontrollably when you noticed a crucifix?
I dunno, are those the generally expected symptoms of crushing boredom, headaches, depression, and having one’s intelligence insulted? Where’s my exorcism? I understand the church still does them. I take it you think that The Exorcist was a documentary?
law1204,
Are you a Medical Doctor or a Women’s Studies major? Seriously. Are you running for political office after law school? Are your initials SF?
I take it you think that The Exorcist was a documentary?
No, silly. It’s a home video.
I dunno, are those the generally expected symptoms of crushing boredom, headaches, depression, and having one’s intelligence insulted?
Hilarious. You think you are entitled to be entertained everywhere. Funny that the one place that it’s all about you, you are so crushingly bored and feel insulted.
Best see your shrink for those headaches and depression. Or just get back to Church. He won’t throw pills at it or charge you a dime.
” You think you are entitled to be entertained everywhere.”
That whole “pursuit of happiness” thing seems to escape most religious conservatives. They like to pursue misery, guilt, aesceticism, punishment and the like. Fuels the martyr complex and keeps the truckloads of money rolling in.
Funny that the one place that it’s all about you
Believe me, church has nothing to do with me or any of the other poor twunts sitting in the pew$. It’s a place where cheap platitudes and myths are sold to the highly suggestible.
“Best see your shrink for those headaches and depression.”
They cleared right up when I left religion.
Now that missy Fluke has publicly rejected Limbaughs attempt at an apology I believe it would be entirely appropriate for Rush to apologize to promiscuous persons everywhere for associating them with a progressive pan handler.
Still waiting for the proud parents [or siblings, childhood friends, significant other, life partner, etc.] to ‘rush’ to the defense of their damsel in distress. Where are you Dudley Doright?
I know Ann ‘wrinkles’ Richards would be at Cecilles side if she had been publicly impugned.
But ‘wrinkles’ has an acceptable excuse. She’s been dead for several years.
I have to admit Fluke was an improvement over Barry Lynn. He looks like he has been dead for several years.
And just came across another issue in missy Flukes public advocacy porfolio: Employers and insurance companies should be required to pay for ‘gender re-assignment surgery’. No mention of who should be responsible to pay for the third toilet.
http://mrctv.org/blog/sandra-fluke-gender-reassignment-and-health-insurance
Before long the ABA will begin procedures to disbar missy Flukes for giving lawyers a bad name.
Hmmm. $9/mo birth control pills available at Target 3 miles from Georgetown. That should make a lot of uninsured students happy!
http://nation.foxnews.com/birth-control/2012/03/05/9mo-birth-control-pills-available-target-3-miles-georgetown-law
Saying that health insurance shouldn’t cover birth control because you can just go to Target to buy Sprintec is like saying health insurance shouldn’t cover Oxycontin because you can just go to Target to buy Tylenol.
Believe me
Naw. You have nothing worth believing in. Abortion is your religion.
What year were you confirmed into the Church of Dead Children, lawtwunt?
Hmmm. $9/mo birth control pills available at Target 3 miles from Georgetown. That should make a lot of uninsured students happy!
Lrning, just think if they demanded their other half share in the responsibility! That would be soooooooo progressive! Only $4.50 per person. Of course this would mean they should probably get to know him long enough to learn his last name.
It would be even less for those more liberal gals who have more than one partner a month.
C’mon, 30-year-old college gals — tell the boy-men to forget buying you that third beer and chip in for the hormones!
“Abortion is your religion.”
And yours seems to be a deep-seated loathing of everyone including yourself, which is why you believe no one, including yourself, should have a choice but to endure the various emotional abuses heaped upon them by the covetous hoaxes that staff the clergy.
Unlike you, I had the choice to say no. And that is why you are so jealous and bitter, and have to attempt to heap faux-moral scorn on the freedom of others.
Deliberately causing your period is not destroying the lining any more than having a period naturally does.
Except one does it unnaturally and makes certain embryos abort, the other doesn’t.
Praxedes,
didn’t you mean to say “ C’mon, 30-year-old college gals — tell the boy-men to forget buying you that third beer and chip in for the whore-moans!
The abortion-mandate defenders here bring up some funny stuff. Like, why do we all have to pay for birth when not all of us are reproducing?
For the same reason socialist health care has us paying for insulin when we don’t have diabetes.
Now, there are 2 kinds of products here:
1) Elective
2) Needed
Mandate-supporters need to learn the difference.
Pre-natal care is NEEDED.
Breast enhancement is ELECTIVE.
Insulin is NEEDED.
Liposuction is ELECTIVE.
Blood pressure treatments are NEEDED.
Penis enlargements are ELECTIVE.
Kidney dialysis is NEEDED.
Abortion is ELECTIVE.
Appendectomy is NEEDED.
Nipple piercing is ELECTIVE, even if my psychiatrist writes me a letter saying I need it for my mental health.
:>)
Please be so kind as to pay for your own ELECTIVE care which, by the way, will leave all of us enough money to pay for our own ELECTIVE care.
Saying that health insurance shouldn’t cover birth control because you can just go to Target to buy Sprintec is like saying health insurance shouldn’t cover Oxycontin because you can just go to Target to buy Tylenol.
I had to switch my blood pressure medicine from a new designer one to Lisinopril cause it only costs me $3 a script instead of $30 a script. Can somebody get me a congressional hearing?
“Please be so kind as to pay for your own ELECTIVE care which, by the way, will leave all of us enough money to pay for our own ELECTIVE care.”
Actually, it’s a heck of a lot more expensive for insurance carriers to subsidize childbearing than it is to offer no co-pay birth control. And if birth control is so ELECTIVE, than so is getting pregnant and having a child. Those mothers, just milking the system for prenatal care. Ho’s. Why can’t their baby daddies just man up and pay those hospital bills?
“Of course this would mean they should probably get to know him long enough to learn his last name.”
So how long were you sleeping with your first husband for before you learned he was an abusive psychopath?
Megan,
I think you should be able to buy an insurance policy without maternity care. Unfortunately under Obamacare the government now mandates that you will have to pay for maternity care your whole life wether you want to or not.
So how long were you sleeping with your first husband for before you learned he was an abusive psychopath?
Longer then it took to learn his last name.
“I think you should be able to buy an insurance policy without maternity care.”
And that would be a brilliant purchase for women in their reproductive years, wouldn’t it (since no pregnancies are ever unplanned)? Especially ones with no access to birth control or abortion.
Anti-welfare conservatives proven to be lying about being against welfare.
law1204: “Believe me, church [is] a place where cheap platitudes and myths are sold to the highly suggestible.”
Not political campaigns? You know, like “hope and change?”
Obama’s a special case — moron religious nut AND vacuous demagogue. I assume you wouldn’t vote for anyone thus doubly stupid.
Anti-welfare conservatives proven to be lying about being against welfare.
Did you just swallow an extra dose of hormones cause you make no sesne?
And that would be a brilliant purchase for women in their reproductive years, wouldn’t it (since no pregnancies are ever unplanned)? Especially ones with no access to birth control or abortion.
no access to birth control…3 miles away and $9 a month…cry me a river…It might make more sense to you if you could control your hormones….wait…maybe it is the hormones you ingest that make you unable to control your sexual urges… how insidious…and probably as addictive to your body as crack. How long have you been ingesting high dose hormones?
Especially ones with no access to birth control or abortion.
Hormonal birth control is an abortificient. It wrecks the utering lining making it harder for embryos to implant and also causes an increase in ectopic pregnancies.
“no access to birth control…3 miles away and $9 a month…cry me a river…”
The cost is NOT. THE. POINT. Say Metformin were only $2 a dose; it wouldn’t matter that diabetes could get it at Walgreens for cheap. Individual insurance plan carriers can’t be the arbiters of what’s worthy of inclusion in their coverage plan. That would defeat the entire purpose of shared risk, not to mention give a voice to every sanctimonious wingnut’s objections to what other people consider to be very legitimate medical care. And in the case of birth control, the Institute of Medicine and dang well every other westernized country that isn’t a hotbed of medieval conservatism considers it to be pretty standard preventive care for women of reproductive ages.
Megan,
Your prior post said you objected to having to pay for the pre-natal care of other women when you don’t want or need it. Now you say that you are fine with bureaucrats mandating what services your insurance policy must include. It sounds like it could be the hormones talking; once when you were due for your next dose and then again right after taking it.
The cost is NOT. THE. POINT.
Megan,
It was to Ms Fluke; at least according to her testimony.
Don’t hate me Megan because I don’t have to try and rationalize killing my children because someone chose to hurt me.
Killing your children never made you or Law free.
“no access to birth control…3 miles away and $9 a month…cry me a river…”
Your sensitivities towards rural women, those living in poverty, those who have no access to transportation, and those who cannot take Sprintec (most of them) or for those for whom Sprintec is not a treatment for their medical issues is showing. Is this really how Jesus would have treated people???
“Your prior post said you objected to having to pay for the pre-natal care of other women when you don’t want or need it. Now you say that you are fine with bureaucrats mandating what services your insurance policy must include”
The cognitive dissonance is not hers, it’s yours. You are the ones who are perfectly fine with the “socialist” universal insurance coverage for prenatal, childbirth, post-natal, and pediatric care for women and infants, but women needing birth control can go pack sand – so either their medical issues result in lost fertility or skyrocketing premiums and skyrocketing tax increases to pay for Medicaid.
You people are so stupid I’m surprised you don’t choke on your own spit.
“Killing your children never made you or Law free. “
Someone who spends significant portions of their life sitting in church, or giving birth to more children, because of the obligations of your own guilt, living under an umbrella of shame because a bunch of perverts who have been brainwashing you your whole life that you’re a bad person and need “Jesus” just so they can get to your wallet and get you to do what they want (and ironically what they want is for you and all other women to sit obediently at home with a truckload of children) is, by definition, a slave. The only way out is to discover that church leaders not only do not know anything you don’t, you are not just a womb, but that you’re perfectly fine the way you are and do not need them or their lies, and that God does not need any more humans. The funny thing is is that the economy is only as good as it is because the majority of women have rejected the church’s teachings and have jobs. Have a nice day.
Don’t feed the troll, y’all.
Mods, if someone is on the forum expressly to rile people up, mock the foundational beliefs of the board’s theme, and fling insults rather than engage the issues, would it be possible to encourage said troll to go elsewhere? It’s your call, of course… but I think even the non-pro-lifers are recognising that this “law” fellow is doing little beyond baiting and mocking anyone who dares challenge him.
Law: “Someone who spends significant portions of their life sitting in church, or giving birth to more children, because of the obligations of your own guilt, living under an umbrella of shame because a bunch of perverts who have been brainwashing you your whole life that you’re a bad person and need ‘Jesus’ just so they can get to your wallet and get you to do what they want”
Wow. Just . . . wow. Obviously bitten by some religious nut at a young age, and now bigoted beyond belief regarding faith communities and their leaders.
It’s one thing to single out religious hoaxsters for proper excoriation. It’s another to throw discretion to the wind and generalize with a shotgun.
Megan: “Individual insurance plan carriers can’t be the arbiters of what’s worthy of inclusion in their coverage plan. That would defeat the entire purpose of shared risk, not to mention give a voice to every sanctimonious wingnut’s objections to what other people consider to be very legitimate medical care.”
So it’s the government’s job? Well that’s a problem for you then, because sanctimonious wingnuts have the same franchise as non-sanctimonious non-wingnuts.
Insurance works well but imperfectly when market forces outweigh regulation. Does that mean some things will not be covered, for varied reasons? Yes, of course. Does that mean some people will not be helped? Yes, of course. Does that mean more people will die?
No. Not one single person more will die.
Utopians want to fix everything, oblivious to the Knowledge Problem and failing to read their recent European history. Or to exercise common sense.
Law: “You people are so stupid I’m surprised you don’t choke on your own spit.”
So it’s not a volitional thing? It’s like a disability of some sort?
Why are you arguing with stupid people?
My husband and I also just finished the book Amazing Grace about William Wilberforce. We both pray that we have his and the other abolitionists’ intensity. Abortion does weigh heavily on my soul, some days more than anything, but it is always there. God bless you and the work you do, Jill.
“mock the foundational beliefs of the board’s theme”
VATICAN CITY (CNS) — Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay.
Access to adequate medical attention, the pope said in a written message Nov. 18, was one of the “inalienable rights” of man.
The pope’s message was read by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, to participants at the 25th International Conference of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry at the Vatican Nov. 18-19.
The theme of this year’s meeting was “Caritas in Veritate – toward an equitable and human health care.”
Why are Catholics complaining about socialized medicine??
Pope Paul VI stated that “the Church”, on the contrary, does not at all consider illicit the use of those therapeutic means truly necessary to cure diseases of the organism, even if an impediment to procreation, which may be foreseen, should result therefrom, provided such impediment is not, for whatever motive, directly willed Humanae Vitae #15.”
http://www.concernedcatholics.org/birthcontrol.htm
More:
http://www.symbolicliving.com/forum/showthread.php/4213-Catholic-Pope-Benedict-giving-ok-to-birth-control-Condoms-are-responsible-now
http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/pope-birth-control-a-lesser-evil-than-hiv-482956.html
Alright, edit my comments. Here’s the abridged version, for your continued edification:
Whining that birth control is merely “elective,” and therefore unworthy of coverage, opens up the space for the rest of us to apply that shrewd cost-reduction scalpel to any service we deem frivolous or wasteful. Seeing that every jerkbag has some qualm or other, the insurance system would be whittled down to a bare nub–it would have no practical utility. Even if I DID have a major problem with paying for other people to have babies–which I don’t, because prenatal care is absolutely as much a part of reproductive healthcare as family planning–I’d still have to subordinate my interests to the cause of the greater good, because that’s the POINT of insurance.
BTW rasqual, health insurance isn’t a free market phenomenon at all. There’s no real price transparency or competition. Now if you really wanted to be a freebird capitalist, you could a) pay out of pocket, or b) refinance your house to pay for your diabetes meds or your daughter’s tooth extraction.
megan: And why, may I ask, is there less competition than would be valuable?
Law: “Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay.”
Let’s add this: Archbishop Zygmunt Zimowski, president of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry, said in opening remarks that to have good health “is a natural right” recognized by international institutions.
Well with all due respect, the Archbishop has been doing magic mushrooms in abundance, if his opinion is being respected outside the quotes.
Your sensitivities towards rural women, those living in poverty, those who have no access to transportation, and those who cannot take Sprintec (most of them) or for those for whom Sprintec is not a treatment for their medical issues is showing. Is this really how Jesus would have treated people???
law2014,
maybe it is the hormones you ingest that make you project ‘sensitiviies’ upon other people. Ever hear of ROID rage? How long have you been ingesting high dose hormones?
Wrap your head around this Megan,
If it is done to stop or shorten the existence of another human being it is not healthcare.
Megan,
Insurance companies hire actuaries to figure the cost average cost of services and project it over time based upon likelihood. If your whole deal is the government giving people free insurance (which I am against) then why not just let the insurance companies list out services they want to cover for people and let people use the 10k to check off the services they want up to the 10k that the government subsidizes?
Obama and Sebellius wouldn’t want people having the choice cause they are in bed with Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry so they mandate it be covered on every policy in order to payoff their cronies. Why do you insist?
Seriously; you don’t really believe this is a conservative uprising against women getting birth control do you. The Catholic Church’s conscience against contraception is well documented for 100’s of years and we will not submit to the mandate. It is simply not an option. This isn’t going away. The USCCB will not fold like other people the left has bullied in the past. . Obama misjudged this cause he never understood people could/would put following their conscience above the force of ‘law’ and hat their conscience could be a force greater than anything Obama has ever grasped. Obama’s devotion to Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry has picked what might actuall be the single fight he had no chance of winning. Cardinal Dolan said in his letter he sent to the US bishops this past Sunday that we didn’t ask for this fight but we will not run away from it either. Now Obama has picked a fight not just with individual catholics like me; but with the entire church. This ain’t goin away unless/until the mandate is withdrawn. Simple as that.
Someone who spends significant portions of their life sitting in church, or giving birth to more children, because of the obligations of your own guilt, living under an umbrella of shame because a bunch of perverts who have been brainwashing you your whole life that you’re a bad person and need “Jesus” just so they can get to your wallet and get you to do what they want (and ironically what they want is for you and all other women to sit obediently at home with a truckload of children) is, by definition, a slave. The only way out is to discover that church leaders not only do not know anything you don’t, you are not just a womb, but that you’re perfectly fine the way you are and do not need them or their lies, and that God does not need any more humans.
And how then, do you explain educated, non-religious individuals who also wish to protect human lives, even at our earliest and youngest stages? We are in the workforce. We contracept just like you do. What’s up with that?
You’re closet religionists who just haven’t come out yet. Obviously, right? I mean, only benighted religious doofs could possibly hold the views you hold on this matter. Either that or secularists who imagine, in some febrile pipe dream, that their allies among the religious are not lunatics. That delusion alone permits you to avoid fleeing in horror from the idiocy of those who agree with you that the unborn are entitled to life. Because surely no sane argument can be advanced in support of the proposition; nothing but lemming-like fealty to corrupt priests can explain the commitment to these crummy little parasites.
Not sure I represented law very well, there, though. His views might be less charitable.
When I was “anything but religious *gag*” and said everything about it that Law has said when I was 12 (yeah, Law sounds 12 and is using all my 12yr old logic and arguments along with all the, “Well yer just stooopid!” when I was proven wrong, LOL), I still believed human life was valuable and worth protecting at ALL stages, because DUH. And when I found that Catholics and many Christians believed the same, because GOD. Well whatever, as long as they were agreeing with me and lend numbers to the cause, their belief was irrelevant. Right is right and sometimes even the most insane and illogical imbeciles coincide with intelligent thought on a right. I bet that’s similar to how other secularists without pipes do it too Rasqual :)
Course now I realize how much more power and credence God’s opinion on the thing has so now that I’m on His side, I’m like tripley right! Lol! No seriously, without the biased hate-scales glasses on one can see the TRUTH in God and if any of the theatrical big-word intelligence actually exists in the form of common sense one would STOP ARGUING WITH HIM. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m actually having to fight “like”ing some of Law’s hyper-screech rants, they are SO FUNNY!!! Like my fave British comedy skit shows that just make NO SENSE and have you rolling and going “wut?” at the same time. I’m like, “Oh crap I was this ignorant once! It’s funny cause it used to be true of me!” Seriously Law, do you have a blog? It’s got to be thrice as ridiculous as your posts here! :)) :D